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Alligator
11-19-2003, 17:02
I posted a petpeeve that rankled somebody. So I thought I would start a separate thread on the subject. Now, before I even pose the question, I would ask that this be a CIVIL CONVERSATION. If you can't make your point without name calling/denigrating/unnecesary rudeness DON'T POST.

1. How do you feel about people leaving religious materials in the shelters?

2. How do you feel about people performing religious activities in or near the shelters?

Remember, play nice folks.

RagingHampster
11-19-2003, 17:14
1. I'm against leaving flyers in shelters.

2. I'm for the right to practice your own religion, so long as it doesn't involve the violation of my other pet peeves. Examples...

A. Your a muslim. It's a cold february morning at 5am and your waking everyone up in the shelter at 4:30am trying to get outside activating your headlamp so you can see your compass to pray towards Mecca.

B. Your a christen. It's easter sunday and your playing a midnight round of find the easter eggs, or singing songs into all hours of the night.

C. Your a Jew. It's Friday night and you have a candle burning in the corner of the shelter keeping everyone up.

D. Your a child of VooDoo. You had a bad day hiking, you feel the mountain god is angry, and decide to sacrifice a live chicken smearing it's blood 'around the shelter as an offering.

Obviously these things are not usually problems. Most people say their prayers to themselves and everything is hunky-dory. But certain branches tend to preach alot, or criticize other's actions. Hike your own hike, Leave no trace, and just be courteous to others.

Lilred
11-19-2003, 17:21
I posted a petpeeve that rankled somebody. So I thought I would start a separate thread on the subject. Now, before I even pose the question, I would ask that this be a CIVIL CONVERSATION. If you can't make your point without name calling/denigrating/unnecesary rudeness DON'T POST.

1. How do you feel about people leaving religious materials in the shelters?

2. How do you feel about people performing religious activities in or near the shelters?

Remember, play nice folks.


I spent a night at Deep Gap Shelter recently and was very happy to see that a New Testament was in with the shelter register. If you are not religious, you need not read it. Being alone in the shelter that night, it gave me comfort to read.

Do I want pamphlets left in shelters promoting a certain religion? NO! Hiking is a very spiritual experience for me, but I have my own spirituality and my own faith. I would find it very disturbing if someone was trying to 'convert' me to their religion. I'm not sure what you mean by religious activity. If one prays, then I would hope they would do it quietly, to themselves. If someone chooses to be baptized in a nearby river, great. Do I want tamborines and chanting? Certainly not. I suppose as long as the activity was quiet and unobtrusive, it wouldn't bother me.

mntman777
11-19-2003, 17:42
Well lilredmg, your own spirituality and own faith sound very lonely. I only say this because my faith is in God. The one and only true God. There is after all only one. This faith is not privy to me alone or to just a single person but to all who accept jesus christ as there lord and saviour and believe that he is gods only begotten son and that he died on the cross for our sins. Why people are so afraid of this i do not know. Nor do i want to offend anyone by forcing it on anyone this is just what i believe. If someone wanted to know if there where any other way to spend eternity with our Lord and creator, I would have to say NO. But you can believe what you want and I will not judge you for it.

RagingHampster
11-19-2003, 18:12
Well lilredmg, your own spirituality and own faith sound very lonely. I only say this because my faith is in God. The one and only true God... bla... bla... bla...

This is where I slam the door in the face of the people who dirtied my doorstep.

For some, religion is actually a spiritual entity/power that they have examined hard and thoroughly and truely placed faith in. For most other people, it's a way to explain and negate their fears and insecurities. Even boredom and depression. I enjoy discussing religion with the first bunch, I'm bothered by the second.

I have no problems with the Tenach/Bible/Koran being left in shelters, just like I have no problem with novels being left in teh shelters. So long as there aren't hundreds of copies in abridged flyer format.

There is a shelter in Warwick State Forest that was once nice. It has been defiled by people engraving things into it all over the place. Obscenities, Initials, and a big monoblock style of the words "Got Jesus?". I view all these as acts of graffiti.

mntman777
11-19-2003, 18:21
I agree about the defacing of property as a means of spreading the word of God, as well as the leaving of tacts, ect. I do not agree with any of these things especially on the trail. I guess i get a little excited when people start talking about christianity, or religious beliefs, and it sounds judgmental. I am not one to force my beliefs on anyone. Sometimes when a person talks about religion and lumps christianity in there with Islam, Buhdism, ect, I feel the need to clarify things. There is a huge differance beween christianity and these religions. I don't mean to offend anyone.

Alligator
11-19-2003, 18:23
Religious activities-Activities that are related to the practicing of one's religion. Proselytizing is a religious activity. I left it vague because I didn't want to influence which activities were discussed. Perhaps people have some experiences that they found uncomfortable.

Mntman-People are not always "afraid" to discuss religion. They may have a steadfast belief in their own, yet not wish to waste their time speaking to a zealot. They may not be religious, nor have any interest in discussing it. They may not want to engage in arguments which cannot be proven.

Your statement that people are afraid of your "Christian truths/belief system" is nonsense. Devout non-Christians are not afraid of what you say, they simply do not believe it and don't want to hear it.

Your first and last statements are contradictory. You just judged Lilredmg's faith and spirituality to be lonely.

mntman777
11-19-2003, 18:34
Yes I judged what he said he believes. Not him. The word of God judges all religiouns that contradict God and his word, as false religions if you want to be honost. Such as islam, buhdism, ect. God judges not me.

TJ aka Teej
11-19-2003, 18:40
Well lilredmg, your own spirituality and own faith sound very lonely. .

But you can believe what you want and I will not judge you for it.

Nice bit of 'not judging' there, Mntman777

Back to Alligator's questions:
Leave No Trace includes leaving stuff in shelters. So no flyers, or bibles, please.
Performing religious activities near shelters? My kids say their prayers before bedtime, even when we're at a shelter. I approve of that. I've seen a New-age wedding at a shelter. I approved of that. Every Labor Day Weekend at Katahdin, the Penobscot tribe takes over Katahdin Stream Campground for a Spiritual Gathering. They even say blessings for the thruhikers, who they see as fellow pilgrims to their holy mountain. I approve of all that. Several years back a Catholic girl was hiking with a bunch of Pagans. They all adjusted their town stops so the girl could go to Mass on Sundays. She celebrated their special days on the Trail with them. I approve of nonjudgemental friendships like that. :sun

RagingHampster
11-19-2003, 18:46
The word of God judges all religiouns that contradict God and his word, as false religions if you want to be honost. Such as islam, buhdism, ect. God judges not me.

...In your opinion might I add.

First of all, Judaism/Christianity/Islam are very similar. All three of their holy books share the same first "chapters" verbatim. The whole god made the world out of playdoh, tossed a guy down, the guy lost a rib, up popped his playmate, she chowed on an apple, man was damned etc.

And to throw the gas on the fire, what makes you think your preacher is the right one?". Did you have a premonition? Were you walking down the AT one day and a Rhododendron bush burst into a talking fireball?

And if everyone followed the words of wisdom "God Judges Not Me", we would have a much better world.

mntman777
11-19-2003, 18:48
Thats nice the way you avoided everything i just said accept your own little point about being judgmental. What part of not judging the person, but judging the beliefe do you not comprehend? Furthermore I don't need your approval to do or not do anything. God judges me, not you. I fear God (reverantly) not you. If the ATC asked me to not do something concerning the trail I would abide out of respect.

Lone Wolf
11-19-2003, 18:50
No registers in shelters either then. There's no such thing as LNT at shelters.

mntman777
11-19-2003, 18:55
Raginghampster, David Koresh, spoke from the word of God when he led all those people to there deaths, Jim Jones spoke from the word of God when he convinced all those people to drink poison. I guess because the Koran is similer, and sounds holy and mentions the word of God, than its ok. The Koran contradicts the word of God in a very big way. It says that jesus was not the only begotten son of God. If he wasn't than he didn't take away the sins of the world, and so there is no way to get to heaven. Because according to Gods word this is the only way.

mntman777
11-19-2003, 19:04
OH yeah I think it was muslims who attacked the U.S. and make no mistake about it. It had to do with there religion. The number one goal of the muslim faith s to convert the entire world to Islam by any means necessary. This is how there religion began to spread to begin with. By force, and threat of death.

smokymtnsteve
11-19-2003, 19:07
you know there is really only one ..

only one group that leaves religious materials...

and really one one group that tries to convert...

no one other groups do this...not that I have seen..

and yes you see Jesus graffitti all over...not just on trail shelters..but in all kinda places...a pushy group that does that....

RagingHampster
11-19-2003, 19:08
The Koran and the Bible are Identical up until Noah's 10th generation descendant named "Abraham".

You speak about Islam and Judaism as being false religions because they do not support the idea that Jesus was the son of god (and the rest of the text along with him). Well a Jew or Muslim would say the same thing about your belief in Jesus, calling down that "God says it's so". What makes your belief hold any more ground than theirs? The only thing you can say to that is that it's your belief, one you take blindly and without question it seems. You have no more evidence to prove your faith than those of the hijackers who flew planes into the towers, or the people who castrated themselves and drank poison kool-aid.

You may believe strongly in Jesus, but others may not. I'm sure you wouldn't like a pagan incessantly preaching to you (even though you probably have a christmas tree :p).

mntman777
11-19-2003, 19:14
The bible and Koran differ way more than that. But I will not keep throwing my pearls to swine. :D

illininagel
11-19-2003, 19:15
OH yeah I think it was muslims who attacked the U.S. and make no mistake about it. It had to do with there religion. The number one goal of the muslim faith s to convert the entire world to Islam by any means necessary. This is how there religion began to spread to begin with. By force, and threat of death.

Wow! What an insulting comment from someone that sets out not to judge others. My God is a tolerant, compassionate and forgiving God.

All of the world's major religions share many common attributes. My God is not one that grants us "free will" and then turns around and says "do it my way or go to H*ll."

Believe me when I tell you that people from all of the major world religions are represented in "heaven." The incredible thing is that the "truth" resides in all of us. Follow your soul and you'll be just fine.

So, my view on this is that I respect anyone's right to practice their religious beliefs---on or off the trail---provided that it doesn't infringe on others. If you wish to pray in a shelter at night---go ahead, just do it quietly so that other may rest if they wish. And I don't appreciate those that try to convert others to their religious beliefs. Each of us has been granted the ability to figure this thing out on our own.

RagingHampster
11-19-2003, 19:25
Ok mntman777, now your stereotyping others.

What you just said about Muslims is completely ignorant.

For starters, it was the christians who marched upon the islamic people during the crusades butchering them in the name of Jesus. And nowhere in the Koran are you going to find things about killing innocents in the name of god. Labeling all muslims as evil because a few fanatics flew planes into our pissing grounds is like labeling all christians evil because Timmy boy blew up the federal building. Are you a decipal of McVeigh? (I hope not).

Now that I'm rolling, I might as well get fired up and throw in the other boot along with a few tire irons...

The christian religion (as a whole), consistantly preaches about helping the unfortunate, yet they would be the richest conglomerate on earth if taxed as such. Funny you guys have all these churches everywhere, yet you can't seem to feed your neighbor. What disgusts me most, is that many people who turn to christianity because they need a source of hope are worked by the ones in charge into padding their wallets, stocking the 50 year old red-wine stock-pile, and getting head from your children.

Yeah, I'm rushing for the nearest bible-bungalo...

That said, I feel the same about most other religions. Power naturally warps those who have it. From the Pope to the old men in Salt Lake City, to the Saudi Princes, they all gladly accept your dough, impose rediculus laws, and then leave you in the gutter thinking your on god's good side.

If god is so intolerant that he would deny my access into a supposed "Heaven" for not "believing in him and his boy", then I wouldn't want to spend eternity with the son-of-a-bitch.

Keep truckin... and hugs and kisses.

Gotta hit the sack, unlike the pope and saudi princes I have a 16 hour work day tomorrow...

Jack Tarlin
11-19-2003, 19:48
I understand the folks who feel that leaving religious literature in shelters violates "Leave No Trace" principles, etc. But it can probably be argued that erecting permanent structures (like shelters!) in wilderness or pristine areas violates these principles as well....

I personally don't have a problem with bibles, religious tracts, etc. being left in shelters. People can choose for themselves whether or not they wish to read them, and their presence in the shelters hurts nobody. Anyone who is realy troubled by merely seeing this stuff in shelters must have an easy life if they have time to spare to get in a dither about such petty stuff as this.

Religious proselytization, either in shelters, or elsewhere on the Trail, is another matter entirely. I've long felt that one's spiritual life and religious practices are a very personal matter and are best left that way. Therefore, handing out religious literature to individuals, or asking them personal questions about their beliefs or non-beliefs is NOT, in my opinion, something I want to see when I'm out hiking.

Lastly, this thread is getting WAY off it's original subject, which is how people feel about religious material left on the Trail. This is NOT the place to discuss or argue the merits of various faiths, nor is it the place to insult or denigrate people whose religious practices might differ from ones own. Some of the above conversation and posts are getting downright ugly, and some of the posts have been rude, unseemly, and untrue. To cite only one example, the comment about Islam's sole intent being the forced conversion of the rest of the world.....well, comments like this merit no response. I spent years studying the Middle Ages, and some of the things I could tell you about the cross-wearing, God-fearing Crusaders of the 11th and 12th centuries would make any self-respecting Christian downright ashamed. What the Russians did when they conquered Berlin in 1945 was miled compared to what the Crusaders did in July of 1099 when they captured Jerusalem. And up until the First World War, the most horrifying conflict in European history was the the 30 Year's War of the 1600's, where Christians died in numbers beyond measure in a futile attempt to forcibly convert or re-convert their fellow Christians. They didn't need to go after people of other faiths----they were perfectly happy to butcher their own co-religionists, allegedly in the name of Jesus Christ and the greater glory of God.

In other words, folks, let's not pick out heroes and villains here, because even if Whiteblaze were the place to do so (which it decidedly isn't!), there's no way to win this argument.

I suggest that if folks wish to continue this thread here, then they discuss how they feel about written material left in shelters, which was, of course, the original question that began this thread. If you want to debate the merits of your particular faith, or if you wish to insult or demean the convictions of others, I respectfully suggest you find a different place to do it. I don't come to this site to see arguments of this sort, and I can't imagine anyone else does either.

Anyone wanna talk about the Trail?

illininagel
11-19-2003, 20:01
Lastly, this thread is getting WAY off it's original subject, which is how people feel about religious material left on the Trail. This is NOT the place to discuss or argue the merits of various faiths, nor is it the place to insult or denigrate people whose religious practices might differ from ones own.

Excellent point. My position on the issue is that it's OK to leave a bible (or any other book for that matter) in a shelter. However, I would consider numerous "flyers" placed at a shelter to be litter since they would likely get blown into the woods at some point.

Jack, like you, I would not appreciate being preached to while staying at the shelter. Religion is a highly personal subject. If someone wants to voluntarily discuss the topic, that's fine. But, I don't want people quizzing me on my personal beliefs.

I would like to think that, as a whole, AT hikers are a tolerant group when it comes to this. Many people consider just being outdoors a spiritual experience.

stranger
11-19-2003, 20:17
I for one don't appreciate people leaving religious materials in a shelter, I really don't understand why people do such things other than to preach to someone else. If you are religious that's great, then you should carry your religious materials in your pack and use them as you wish. But to leave these materials in a shelter implies some type of recruitment as far as I am concerned.

For example...I have certain beliefs that I would die for, such as the abolishment of Capitalism and the class structure, and am a true believer in Socialism. HOWEVER you would never catch me talking about these issues on the trail or leaving a copy of " The Communist Manifesto" in a shelter, WHY, because these are MY beliefs and don't need to be pushed onto others.

Obviously you can choose not to read bibles and such left in shelters, but why do they have to be there in the first place. Anyone who has strong beliefs in anything will have their own resources and will use them as appropriate for themselves.

Alligator
11-19-2003, 20:42
I agree totally with Stranger's first paragraph, no religious materials in the shelters. If you really need it, carry it, and pack it in, pack it out.

I have never run into anyone conducting any religious activities to speak of. I wouldn't be bothered by quiet prayer. I hear about folks proselytizing though so I wanted to get a response on that. And this year I had a morbid fascination for following Five Alive's progress on Trailjournals. They definitely had some religious activities to speak of.

L. Wolf mentioned no registers. As an aside, there are places built into some shelters for registers (clipboard podium type object), so it seems that there was some intent to have the registers there. (And no, they are not a good place to leave pamphlets). What would be really nice would be to have a central repository for the registers, like somewhere at the National Archives.

Chappy
11-19-2003, 21:18
Baltimore Jack: Thanks for getting this post returned to the original question. I'm a Bible believing Christian and have been greatly offended by Raging Hampter's portrayal of the things that are dear to my faith. I'm trying to learn all I can about the AT before I begin my great adventure and it's hard to learn when so many of the posts digress from the original thread. Thanks again.

chknfngrs
11-19-2003, 21:26
Both are fine with me.

smokymtnsteve
11-19-2003, 21:47
Baltimore Jack: Thanks for getting this post returned to the original question. I'm a Bible believing Christian and have been greatly offended by Raging Hampter's portrayal of the things that are dear to my faith. I'm trying to learn all I can about the AT before I begin my great adventure and it's hard to learn when so many of the posts digress from the original thread. Thanks again.


well chappy how offended are you at your co-religionists MTNMAN777???

what mtnman777 was saying was a lot more offensive IMO than anything raging hamster ever said...

you share mtnman777 beliefs???

mntman777
11-19-2003, 22:10
Wow! What an insulting comment from someone that sets out not to judge others. My God is a tolerant, compassionate and forgiving God.

All of the world's major religions share many common attributes. My God is not one that grants us "free will" and then turns around and says "do it my way or go to H*ll."

Believe me when I tell you that people from all of the major world religions are represented in "heaven." The incredible thing is that the "truth" resides in all of us. Follow your soul and you'll be just fine.

So, my view on this is that I respect anyone's right to practice their religious beliefs---on or off the trail---provided that it doesn't infringe on others. If you wish to pray in a shelter at night---go ahead, just do it quietly so that other may rest if they wish. And I don't appreciate those that try to convert others to their religious beliefs. Each of us has been granted the ability to figure this thing out on our own.
You obviously don't read the bible. And if thats the case did you make up your God, and what kind of God he is? Jesus said I do what I see my father do. I say wha I hear my father say. Jesus said no man cometh unto the father but by me.

mntman777
11-19-2003, 22:14
Wow! What an insulting comment from someone that sets out not to judge others. My God is a tolerant, compassionate and forgiving God.

All of the world's major religions share many common attributes. My God is not one that grants us "free will" and then turns around and says "do it my way or go to H*ll."

Believe me when I tell you that people from all of the major world religions are represented in "heaven." The incredible thing is that the "truth" resides in all of us. Follow your soul and you'll be just fine.

So, my view on this is that I respect anyone's right to practice their religious beliefs---on or off the trail---provided that it doesn't infringe on others. If you wish to pray in a shelter at night---go ahead, just do it quietly so that other may rest if they wish. And I don't appreciate those that try to convert others to their religious beliefs. Each of us has been granted the ability to figure this thing out on our own.
I would also like to ask you where you get your miss information from. Regarding all people from all religions being represented in heaven. Realy did you just come to this conclusion on your own or did somebody misslead you?

mntman777
11-19-2003, 22:17
Jack your right. I do respect you after getting to know you on the trail. As for the original thread, I for one don't have a problem with what people leave in the shelters for reading material. If I don't agree with something then I don't have to read it. Howeve I do want to add that most things I have read concerning others beliefs, have only strengthend my own.

Lilred
11-19-2003, 22:29
Well lilredmg, your own spirituality and own faith sound very lonely. I only say this because my faith is in God. The one and only true God. There is after all only one. This faith is not privy to me alone or to just a single person but to all who accept jesus christ as there lord and saviour and believe that he is gods only begotten son and that he died on the cross for our sins. Why people are so afraid of this i do not know. Nor do i want to offend anyone by forcing it on anyone this is just what i believe. If someone wanted to know if there where any other way to spend eternity with our Lord and creator, I would have to say NO. But you can believe what you want and I will not judge you for it.


LOLOL Wow do you jump to assumptions. I am a christian, but my faith may not be the next person's faith. That's all I meant.

mntman777
11-19-2003, 22:32
Ok mntman777, now your stereotyping others.

What you just said about Muslims is completely ignorant.

For starters, it was the christians who marched upon the islamic people during the crusades butchering them in the name of Jesus. And nowhere in the Koran are you going to find things about killing innocents in the name of god. Labeling all muslims as evil because a few fanatics flew planes into our pissing grounds is like labeling all christians evil because Timmy boy blew up the federal building. Are you a decipal of McVeigh? (I hope not).

Now that I'm rolling, I might as well get fired up and throw in the other boot along with a few tire irons...

The christian religion (as a whole), consistantly preaches about helping the unfortunate, yet they would be the richest conglomerate on earth if taxed as such. Funny you guys have all these churches everywhere, yet you can't seem to feed your neighbor. What disgusts me most, is that many people who turn to christianity because they need a source of hope are worked by the ones in charge into padding their wallets, stocking the 50 year old red-wine stock-pile, and getting head from your children.

Yeah, I'm rushing for the nearest bible-bungalo...

That said, I feel the same about most other religions. Power naturally warps those who have it. From the Pope to the old men in Salt Lake City, to the Saudi Princes, they all gladly accept your dough, impose rediculus laws, and then leave you in the gutter thinking your on god's good side.

If god is so intolerant that he would deny my access into a supposed "Heaven" for not "believing in him and his boy", then I wouldn't want to spend eternity with the son-of-a-bitch.

Keep truckin... and hugs and kisses.

Gotta hit the sack, unlike the pope and saudi princes I have a 16 hour work day tomorrow...Your obviously the ignorant one, and its easy to spout off about something you obviously know nothing about. Just what are you talking about, with the red wine and getting head. The churches I have attended in my life where filled with good christian people who would give you the shirt off there back oh yeah and feed you, even if you where as ignorant as you obviously are. And to sum it up I didn't say God was tolerant. Once again, its where you get your information. I think mine concerning the Muslims is ver accurate concidering it came from one.

mntman777
11-19-2003, 22:36
And with that i will say nothing more about this. I will not respond anymore to anyones assumptions or missleadings, or opinions. Unless asked a direct question.

RagingHampster
11-19-2003, 23:35
Which is exactly the way it should stay on the trail, unless two people are willing to discuss the topic.

Hike your own hike, pray your own prayers, and read your own holy books.

mntman777
11-19-2003, 23:50
I would like to add just one other thing. That in spite of our beliefs i am always willing to be someones friend. And if anyone was in need of anything, and i could help i would.

brian
11-19-2003, 23:59
This could be a record....34 posts in under 6 hours...

Im against leaving ads in shelters...after all**LNT**

Brian
Future Thru Hiker 2013

kevin
11-20-2003, 00:20
I posted a petpeeve that rankled somebody. So I thought I would start a separate thread on the subject. Now, before I even pose the question, I would ask that this be a CIVIL CONVERSATION. If you can't make your point without name calling/denigrating/unnecesary rudeness DON'T POST.

1. How do you feel about people leaving religious materials in the shelters?

2. How do you feel about people performing religious activities in or near the shelters?

Remember, play nice folks.

Well, glad we've maintained a nice civil conversation ;)

To answer the original questions --

1) Doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I'm not a religious person, but its kind of like the bible in the hotel room...doesn't hurt me at all and is useful to others.

2) Again, I'm fine with it. Live and let live. As long as your religious activities are not overly intrusive and don't involve trying to convert me, then why should I mind.

To many, a hike is a very spiritual experience and if a bible in a shelter or an evening prayer is going to add to someone's experience (and they are respectful of me not participating) then I don't see the problem.

Alligator
11-20-2003, 00:40
I'm going to stay on target and address some of Jack's statements. Not all shelters are placed in wilderness/pristine areas. Technically, there is a move to remove shelters in designated wilderness areas as they should not be there due to the wilderness designation (no man made structures). There are some shelters in the Whites (but I think off the AT), that have been left to rot.

I don't have an easy life and I don't get in a dither about this, it was just a petpeeve. I am offended by people who leave materials in the shelters because it smacks of intolerance. Leaving the material basically says "I don't respect your beliefs enough to consider them valid. Your personal belief structure is not correct, you're only road to salvation is to follow _______(fill in the blank), join the _____ church." Whatever.

No I don't have to read it, but then you read it anyway cause you're done reading the register. Or it's stuck in the register. And I sort of want to know what kind of religious fanatic is either ahead of me on the trail, or heading the opposite direction, because in all cases, I don't want to run into them. Papering the shelter is usually the least of their transgressions. Anyone humping a bunch of bibles shelter to shelter has issues.

Alligator
11-20-2003, 01:03
Bibles in hotels rooms are again another example of non-acceptance and a lack of empathy. "Hello Christian welcome to our hotel. We'd like to meet your spiritual needs." Like everybody who travels is a Christian. Think there are any other holy books available?

The bible present doesn't bother many people because a majority of the people in the US have been raised Christian, or are sort of Christian. We become complacent and don't learn to respect other religions. Take a look at some of the posts.

mdionne
11-20-2003, 01:04
I posted a petpeeve that rankled somebody. So I thought I would start a separate thread on the subject. Now, before I even pose the question, I would ask that this be a CIVIL CONVERSATION. If you can't make your point without name calling/denigrating/unnecesary rudeness DON'T POST.

1. How do you feel about people leaving religious materials in the shelters?

2. How do you feel about people performing religious activities in or near the shelters?

Remember, play nice folks.
I don't think anyone should leave anything in the shelters. I've been fed by too many religious activities around the shelters to complain about that though.

Matt Pincham
11-20-2003, 06:33
Bah just wrote a huge reply to this and then pressed Submit...and it says I'm not logged in and all my writing vanished.

The basic jist of it was that I agree with mtnman that Muslims are dangerous. If you study their religion, they want a wholly Muslim world and that dictates that killing is acceptable.

Hence the Crusades. The Christians defended themselves as the Muslims had invaded Europe all the way up to Spain. It was the Muslims who provoked the Christians to start the Crusades.

And lastly was the point that I feel people who turn to religion do so becuase of a fear of death and that when they die, they wish for something more.

But I'd love to meet religious people when I'm on the trail as I find them (usually) to be the nicest people in the world.

Happy Hiking
Matt

alpine
11-20-2003, 08:27
with drawn

Lone Wolf
11-20-2003, 08:43
Why carry Wingfoot's book or The Companion if you're trying to get away from "civilization"? Shelters are man-made ugly, dirty structures that don't belong in the woods. If you choose to use them instead of using the thousands of acres around you to camp, deal with what's in them. The money you use has religeous s**t on it. Get over it.

deeddawg
11-20-2003, 09:36
I am offended by people who leave materials in the shelters because it smacks of intolerance. Leaving the material basically says "I don't respect your beliefs enough to consider them valid. Your personal belief structure is not correct, you're only road to salvation is to follow _______(fill in the blank), join the _____ church." Whatever.

No I don't have to read it, but then you read it anyway cause you're done reading the register. Or it's stuck in the register.

Bibles in hotels rooms are again another example of non-acceptance and a lack of empathy. "Hello Christian welcome to our hotel. We'd like to meet your spiritual needs." Like everybody who travels is a Christian. Think there are any other holy books available?

To answer the original questions:

(1) I have no problem with a bible in a shelter. In the most basic sense, it is a book. What it represents is a function of the mindset of the person encountering it. If the existance of a book offends someone, I suspect they may have other issues they would do well to deal with. As for papering the place with tracts, no, I don't think that would be appropriate for the same reason that a bunch of other loose papers or advertisements wouldn't be appropriate.

(2) Religious activities in/around shelters? They should be quiet and unobtrusive, respectful of non-participants desire for peace and quiet. Just like any other discussions/conversations.

Now (sorry Jack, but I do need to address this) regarding Alligator's comments: I believe you are completely misinterpreting the intentions of the people who leave such materials. They want to share information they believe to be important and valid; if you don't agree with what it says, that's just fine. Or don't read it. Your choice.

Bibles in hotel rooms are placed there by the Gideons, an volunteer organization. Not AFAIK by the establishments themselves. Intolerance? Hardly. More a matter of one group who actually goes out and does something; If other religious groups wished to do similar I'd be all for it.

Are there intolerant Christians? Sure, Christians are just people and you'll find bigots and intolerant people in all walks of life and in all religions. To suggest or think that all or even most are like that merely shows ones own ignorance and ones own intolerance.

What I find very curious is why some people get so worked up over religion. If you're comfortable and solid in your own belief system, hearing or reading about a different opinion shouldn't be an issue. Obviously I'm excepting situations where someone is "in your face" like some gear-know-it-all; but how many of us insult and belittle anyone who owns a Gregory pack because we once encountered someone who told us our Kelty pack s*cked and we should buy a Gregory? That's just plain silly, isn't it?

Tabasco
11-20-2003, 09:50
Hey! Great thread, maybe next we could discuss gun control and abortion too?

I am a devout Catholic, but I strictly oppose leaving "stuff" in the shelters. I view it the same way as I view the "windshield flyers" that various groups leave under my wipers when I am shopping at my favorite establishment. They are imposing upon ME to dispose of their garbage, no matter how much I want to rip it off of my car and throw it on the ground, I cannot do that.

Praying in the shelter? No issues, just be respectful of others if it's too early or too late.

As far as preaching to others? Very simple, lead by example. Don't tell others how good you are, SHOW them how good you are.

mntman777
11-20-2003, 10:07
Well the preaching I've done in the past (never on the A.T.) Wasn,t about how good i was, or had anything to do with me at all, but more about jesus, and what he has done for us. I have to say there are some interesting views of christianity out there to say the least. Hearing these differant views is something I rather enjoy however.

greyowl
11-20-2003, 10:24
I think that a different prespective is needed. I am an atheist (gasp!). As such I have read many of the major religions literature. They all preach tolerance of other peoples beliefs. Of course the real hypocrisy is no religion practices what they preach. So go ahead and read your bible etc, say your prayers, sing your hymns and I will give you space to practice your beliefs. Just try to convence me that there is a god and only one true religion because I will explain to you why I think that you are full of crap and will to my best to convert you to athiesm.

Grey Owls

PS Yes I like christmas caroles, no I don't celebrate christmas. I celebrate the winter solstice.

PSS Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain

Matt Pincham
11-20-2003, 10:40
I think everyone enjoys religious discussion. There's just something that gets us going when there's a question with no definite answer.

My best friend is like you, mntman and he even says to my face that I'm going to hell because I'm not a born again Christian. Quite sad really when I'm a good person who chooses to follow his own path.

Maybe one day I'll discover God. But for the moment...I'm just happy arguing about him.

Let's change this topic anyhow...are there many churches along the trail? What's the most religious state?

deeddawg
11-20-2003, 10:43
They all preach tolerance of other peoples beliefs. Of course the real hypocrisy is no religion practices what they preach.

Depends on how you choose to define tolerance. The classic definition fits; i.e. I may think you're wrong-headed for wanting to carry an 80 lb pack, but if you choose to do so that's fine by me. I may think you're misguided, but I don't think poorly of you as a person.

The new version of "tolerance" seems to say that I'm being intolerant if I think that carrying an 80lb pack is a bad idea. I am supposed to somehow think that's just dandy. Odd thing is, people who think ill of me because I believe carrying an 80lb pack isn't the right way to go are somehow NOT intolerant themselves. Smacks of a double-standard, no?


Just try to convence me that there is a god and only one true religion because I will explain to you why I think that you are full of crap and will to my best to convert you to athiesm.

Fair enough. I for one would never try to "convert" someone unbidden; yet would freely and gladly share my beliefs if the other wished to discuss. Otherwise I'll just do my own thing; hike my own hike as it were.

Cheers. :)

greyowl
11-20-2003, 11:13
Got into a really intersting discussion about religion one time with a religious scholar. He accepted Christ as a real person and believed that he would come back before judgment day. My reply was that Christ if he ever really existed and if he ever camback to earth would probably knock on my door, accept my invitation to come in, pull up a chair, drink beer out of long necked bottles and share outrageous tales with me. I think that he would be greatly sadden to see how men (and women) twisted his words arround to their advantage.

Grey Owl

steve hiker
11-20-2003, 13:47
Don't want to hear the word of God? Perhaps you prefer the word of Satan!

Shut out the merciful Word of the Lord, and prepare for your home in HELL:

"Thou art now like a sear leaf, the messengers of death have come near to thee; there is no resting place for thee on the road, and thou hast no provision for thy journey."

Take a good, hard, sober look at the journey that awaits you, blasphemers, before you burn another Bible or use its golden leaves of wisdom to wipe your foul stinking flesh:

www.laststophell.com

Lone Wolf
11-20-2003, 13:51
******* bible thumpers. Keep it to yourselves.

deeddawg
11-20-2003, 14:02
Don't want to hear the word of God? Perhaps you prefer the word of Satan!

Two comments...

(1) This sort of in-your-face style doesn't accomplish anything positive.

(2) This person's comments are not at all representative of any of the Christians I know, and certainly does not reflect the emulation of Christ that most try to live. One who is looking to evangelize does so by walking-the-walk and offering counsel to those in need at the appropriate time and in the appropriate circumstances, and most importantly only when the person wants to listen to what you have to say. Preaching fire & brimstone does more to turn folks off than it does to accomplish anything positive.

Please do not lump all Christians into the same basket as this example -- to do so is to commit the same stereotyping and judging of groups of people based on singular extreme examples as someone who thinks all blacks are like Louis Farrakhan.

mntman777
11-20-2003, 15:10
I think everyone enjoys religious discussion. There's just something that gets us going when there's a question with no definite answer.

My best friend is like you, mntman and he even says to my face that I'm going to hell because I'm not a born again Christian. Quite sad really when I'm a good person who chooses to follow his own path.

Maybe one day I'll discover God. But for the moment...I'm just happy arguing about him.

Let's change this topic anyhow...are there many churches along the trail? What's the most religious state?

I for one have never said to anyones face that they are going to hell, because they are not born again. I pray for all men (and women) that they would come to know God the way he intended for us to know him, and to know christ as there Lord and saviour. After all he is. I guess it all comes down to the word of God, the bible. I believe in it. It has taught me things about myself and who God is, to an extent. To an extent because I'm not finished yet. So I guess you either believe or you don't. The bible is very clear about mans salvation. How to reach God. So all I can say is check it out.

mntman777
11-20-2003, 15:15
Got into a really intersting discussion about religion one time with a religious scholar. He accepted Christ as a real person and believed that he would come back before judgment day. My reply was that Christ if he ever really existed and if he ever camback to earth would probably knock on my door, accept my invitation to come in, pull up a chair, drink beer out of long necked bottles and share outrageous tales with me. I think that he would be greatly sadden to see how men (and women) twisted his words arround to their advantage.

Grey Owl
Well Grey wolf, Your right about jesus coming into your home at your invitation, and dining with you, but i assure you he would have an agenda. Chrst is coming back one day, for his bride, i.e. the body of christ figurativly speaking, this is all according to Gods word. jesus says no man knoweth the hour nor the day, but my father. I pray that all come to know christ, so as not to be left behind. Jesus said i come to save that witch is lost, man. God bless

Jack Tarlin
11-20-2003, 15:44
Geeesh, enough already. It amazes me that folks have the time and energy to spend on discussions of this sort.... and I suspect that the level of the discourse turns off a lot of folks, especially the ones new to this site (and welcome to all of you, by the way!)

So I'll say it again, just to see what happens......anyone wanna talk about the Trail or answer questions for folks planning their first long trip?

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I was kinda under the impression that this was the primary purpose of this site.

Moose2001
11-20-2003, 17:31
Thanks Jack. Your comments are the only logical or worthwhile thing said in this entire discussion.

Lone Wolf
11-20-2003, 17:35
Who do Athiests cry out to when they orgasm? :-?

Campfire
11-20-2003, 19:19
Who do Athiests cry out to when they orgasm? :-?

Probably the person responsible for the orgasm. :clap :jump

Chappy
11-20-2003, 19:37
[QUOTE=Matt Pincham]I think everyone enjoys religious discussion. There's just something that gets us going when there's a question with no definite answer.


Matt: Please check your private messages. I sent some off-line questions reference hiking in UK. Thanks.

ganj
11-20-2003, 20:05
Don't want to hear the word of God? Perhaps you prefer the word of Satan!

Shut out the merciful Word of the Lord, and prepare for your home in HELL:



WillK always makes me laugh. This is good stuff.

Nightwalker
11-20-2003, 20:09
mntman777 "I guess i get a little excited when people start talking about christianity, or religious beliefs, and it sounds judgmental. I am not one to force my beliefs on anyone. Sometimes when a person talks about religion and lumps christianity in there with Islam, Buhdism, ect, I feel the need to clarify things."

I agree with you. We have to LOVINGLY put our beliefs out seperately from the others. Unfortunately, we are hampered by the hit-and-run tract brigade, the street-corner shouters and the greed-masters who have come before us and made our job more difficult. However, if we keep the faith, we will be presente with circumstanses to lead people to Jesus. One at a time is okay, ya know? :)

Skyline
11-20-2003, 20:43
If hiker hostels, trail-friendly motels, shuttle services, etc. are no longer permitted to put THEIR "propaganda" in A.T. shelters (ATC policy) why should Christians, Jews, Muslims, Druids, Krishnas, or anyone else be permitted to do so? By "propaganda" I mean leaflets, signage, business cards, etc.

On the A.T. itself, including shelters, you'll meet quite a diversity of people from many backgrounds. Some are "religious." Diversity rules on the A.T., and that's one of the things that make it great.

I've got no problem with a hiker who wears a crucifix around his/her neck to kinda say to other like-minded people "Hey, I'm one of you," anymore than a guy with a rainbow patch sewn to his pack letting other gay people know "Hey, I'm one of you," or a woman with a Howard Dean for Prez sticker on her Nalgene bottle that implies, "Hey, I think this guy's cool." (Don't like my examples? Choose others--it's all the same.)

But beyond that, I really don't care to be bombarded with prayers or proselytizing or political arguments or anything else like that while I'm in the woods. And leaving literature that promotes an agenda in a shelter is certainly proselytizing.

altec
11-20-2003, 22:36
Don't want to hear the word of God? Perhaps you prefer the word of Satan!

Shut out the merciful Word of the Lord, and prepare for your home in HELL:

"Thou art now like a sear leaf, the messengers of death have come near to thee; there is no resting place for thee on the road, and thou hast no provision for thy journey."

Take a good, hard, sober look at the journey that awaits you, blasphemers, before you burn another Bible or use its golden leaves of wisdom to wipe your foul stinking flesh:

www.laststophell.com

I am sorry, but that has to be one of the most offensive things I have ever heard, and it, in many ways, gives the Christian faith a very bad name. I am personally an athiest, and I am fine with that. Why try to tell me that I am wrong? How can you convince me? Why be so stand-offish? If you truly believe what you are saying, shouldn't you be compassionate, so that I, the heathen with foul stinking flesh, can understand your point, and want to be able to feel that warmth that you share? This certainly is one of the thing that gets me the maddest, and I hope that you feel good about turning another further away from your God, and any other fairy tale that others try to shove down our societies throat. I would also like you to know that your fallacious scare tactics have very little affect on anybody, since most can recognize their purpose...keep those kind of comments to yourself please.

Back on subject: I think that religious pamphlets (or any type of pamphlet for that matter) should be left out of the shelters personally. They pose too many risks against "Leave No Trace" including litter and such. I however have no problem with a bible being left inside a shelter. It provides anyone who wants to read it with some entertainment, or spiritual benefit, and those who want to take no part, do not have to worry about it's presence.

Best Wishes,
Tray

Lone Wolf
11-20-2003, 22:55
Tray, there's nothing "LNT" about a shelter and it's surrounding area. A few pamphlets hurt jack *****t. In 17 years of AT hiking I've never seen pamphlets flying around the shelters like some describe. It's a f**cking non-issue! Y'all need to worry about much more important issues.

altec
11-20-2003, 23:00
Tray, there's nothing "LNT" about a shelter and it's surrounding area. A few pamphlets hurt jack *****t. In 17 years of AT hiking I've never seen pamphlets flying around the shelters like some describe. It's a f**cking non-issue! Y'all need to worry about much more important issues.

When reading the thread, it did not seem like that much of an issue, but it could pose some sort of problem. I am in no way insinuating that there are twisters of pamphlets swirling around the trail, and staple-gunned to wildlife, I am only saying that I can see where people would draw concern with this aspect of LNT. I can imagine that there is very little problem with the pamphlets, but can you not see that it COULD cause a problem?

Best Wishes,
Tray

Lone Wolf
11-20-2003, 23:05
There never has been and never will be a problem with little pamphlets in any shelter. This "LNT" is a bunch of BS. The trail itself and certainly shelters and privies and campsites are LLT (Leave Lotsa Trace).

altec
11-20-2003, 23:18
There never has been and never will be a problem with little pamphlets in any shelter. This "LNT" is a bunch of BS. The trail itself and certainly shelters and privies and campsites are LLT (Leave Lotsa Trace).

It is people that believe that it is O.K. to "Leave Lotsa Trace" that make the hiking experience very unpleasurable for other people. Just please recognize that by "Leaving Lotsa Trace" you are imposing your stuff on other people, and that is quite inconsiderate. How can you have no compassion for the wilderness in this manner?

Best Wishes,
Tray

10degrees
11-20-2003, 23:18
It's a f**cking non-issue! Y'all need to worry about much more important issues.
Non-issue huh? Guess that's why you saw fit to post 5 times in this thread.

One good thing about leaving bibles and such in shelters, they usually stay dry so's they can be put to good use in starting campfires to roast our weenies. Not good for much else!

Alligator
11-20-2003, 23:23
To answer the original questions:

(1) I have no problem with a bible in a shelter. In the most basic sense, it is a book. What it represents is a function of the mindset of the person encountering it. If the existance of a book offends someone, I suspect they may have other issues they would do well to deal with. As for papering the place with tracts, no, I don't think that would be appropriate for the same reason that a bunch of other loose papers or advertisements wouldn't be appropriate.

(2) Religious activities in/around shelters? They should be quiet and unobtrusive, respectful of non-participants desire for peace and quiet. Just like any other discussions/conversations.

Now (sorry Jack, but I do need to address this) regarding Alligator's comments: I believe you are completely misinterpreting the intentions of the people who leave such materials. They want to share information they believe to be important and valid; if you don't agree with what it says, that's just fine. Or don't read it. Your choice.

Bibles in hotel rooms are placed there by the Gideons, an volunteer organization. Not AFAIK by the establishments themselves. Intolerance? Hardly. More a matter of one group who actually goes out and does something; If other religious groups wished to do similar I'd be all for it.

Are there intolerant Christians? Sure, Christians are just people and you'll find bigots and intolerant people in all walks of life and in all religions. To suggest or think that all or even most are like that merely shows ones own ignorance and ones own intolerance.

What I find very curious is why some people get so worked up over religion. If you're comfortable and solid in your own belief system, hearing or reading about a different opinion shouldn't be an issue. Obviously I'm excepting situations where someone is "in your face" like some gear-know-it-all; but how many of us insult and belittle anyone who owns a Gregory pack because we once encountered someone who told us our Kelty pack s*cked and we should buy a Gregory? That's just plain silly, isn't it?

The hotel owners allow Gideons to place the bibles in the rooms, so there is tacit approval for their placement.

On the contrary, as but one owner of our national scenic trail, the Appalachian trail, I do not give my tacit approval for the placement of bibles in shelters nor other religious tracts materials, etc. Come to think of it, the federal government would probably not endorse their placement, as this would certainly be a promotion of religion. As I interpret things, the AT falls under the jurisdiction of the NPS, an agency within the Dept of the Interior. So as a US citizen, my constitutional rights are certainly in effect while walking the trail. As the recent ten commandments case (think several ton monument) showed, placing objects of a single religious faith in public places is a no-no.

But I'm not a lawyer, so there might be some legal precedent I'm missing. Maybe we could ask Judge Moore? :clap

10degrees
11-20-2003, 23:40
you mean the "former" judge moore.

Alligator
11-21-2003, 00:05
you mean the "former" judge moore.
My apologies to the citizen from AL for improperly bestowing the honorific "Judge" upon the removed Mr. Moore.

Nightwalker
11-21-2003, 00:42
I am sorry, but that has to be one of the most offensive things I have ever heard, and it, in many ways, gives the Christian faith a very bad name.

Tray, I'm sorry that you had to even hear that crap. You're right to be offended. Most pseudo-Christians don't even realize that when the Bible says "God is Love", and "The first law is Love", and "Love thy neighbor as thyself", and the whole 13th chapter of Corinthians that describes love in detail, which ends with "Faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love", it actually means that Christians are supposed to live a life of LOVE!!! It really makes me angry, and I try to not let that get out of control. Don't these people know that they're driving potential Christians away, not attracting them? I mean, you all know what we believe about Heaven and Hell, but that in itself is not going to attract anyone, so why re-hash it over and over? And WillK, you've got some praying to do. I'm not gonna judge you. You need to do that yourself, before the matter is taken out of your hands.

mntman777
11-21-2003, 00:44
mntman777 "I guess i get a little excited when people start talking about christianity, or religious beliefs, and it sounds judgmental. I am not one to force my beliefs on anyone. Sometimes when a person talks about religion and lumps christianity in there with Islam, Buhdism, ect, I feel the need to clarify things."

I agree with you. We have to LOVINGLY put our beliefs out seperately from the others. Unfortunately, we are hampered by the hit-and-run tract brigade, the street-corner shouters and the greed-masters who have come before us and made our job more difficult. However, if we keep the faith, we will be presente with circumstanses to lead people to Jesus. One at a time is okay, ya know? :)
I appreciate that thank you. You know, the funny thing about this thread is I havn't ever left any tracts on the A.T. or anywhere else for that matter, nor have I talked to any of the people I met on the A.T. about God or beliefs. I do beleive in being led by the holy spirit, and when you are then the people you do speak to are more open to hearing about God. God bless.

mntman777
11-21-2003, 00:52
There never has been and never will be a problem with little pamphlets in any shelter. This "LNT" is a bunch of BS. The trail itself and certainly shelters and privies and campsites are LLT (Leave Lotsa Trace).
I have to say I agree with Lwolf. Every shelter i've been to that didn't have a privy and even some that did, had toilet paper everywhere, wherever people where using the bathroom. I was shocked, and it was quite discusting. Whatever happend to the 6 inch whole?

prozac
11-21-2003, 08:45
Religion is the opiate of the masses. Karl Marx

Blue Jay
11-21-2003, 08:56
What a great thread. As I've said before, I love all types of religious material in shelters as sometimes I like a campfire and I don't have to use my toilet paper. Please keep leaving it, however, leave ones without the plastic covers, as I have to pack those out.

mntman777
11-21-2003, 09:37
What a great thread. As I've said before, I love all types of religious material in shelters as sometimes I like a campfire and I don't have to use my toilet paper. Please keep leaving it, however, leave ones without the plastic covers, as I have to pack those out.
Like those fires do ya blue jay? Like burning things do ya? Hmmmm

Rain Man
11-21-2003, 09:48
Tray, I'm sorry that you had to even hear that crap. You're right to be offended. Most pseudo-Christians don't even realize that when the Bible says "God is Love", and "The first law is Love", and "Love thy neighbor as thyself", and the whole 13th chapter of Corinthians that describes love in detail, which ends with "Faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love", it actually means that Christians are supposed to live a life of LOVE!!! ...

Frank, yours is the only decent message out of the 76 posted so far.

deeddawg
11-21-2003, 10:18
The hotel owners allow Gideons to place the bibles in the rooms, so there is tacit approval for their placement.

On the contrary, as but one owner of our national scenic trail, the Appalachian trail, I do not give my tacit approval for the placement of bibles in shelters nor other religious tracts materials, etc. Come to think of it, the federal government would probably not endorse their placement, as this would certainly be a promotion of religion. As I interpret things, the AT falls under the jurisdiction of the NPS, an agency within the Dept of the Interior. So as a US citizen, my constitutional rights are certainly in effect while walking the trail. As the recent ten commandments case (think several ton monument) showed, placing objects of a single religious faith in public places is a no-no.

But I'm not a lawyer, so there might be some legal precedent I'm missing. Maybe we could ask Judge Moore? :clap

(I was not going to continue this, but since my points are being debated, I do need to reply. Sorry Jack)

I believe the First Amdendment rules governing religion are that the government shall not promote one religion over any others. As I interpret this, the government would be wrong to give tacit approval to one group while not giving the same freedom to another group. So long as all groups enjoy the same freedoms, it would be just as bad for the government to disallow a group from doing something just because the others choose not to do it.

For reference, here's the United States Constitution Bill of Rights (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html)

If the government or a government official were to place a bible in a shelter while disallowing other religions' materials, then the Moore case would be applicable. The First Amdendment does not prohibit someone from their religion on government property; quite the opposite, in fact, it specifically guarantees the practice of free speech.

An interesting thing about free speech -- it does not guarantee against you being offended by what someone else says.

Regarding hotel owners and Gideons -- do they give tacit approval? Obviously so. Does that mean the hotel owners are promoting Christian beliefs above others? No, that does not logically follow unless you can show that they disallow others; and I suspect they do not as I'm sure we'd see a huge media stink if such were the case. More likely (and this is supposition based on Occam's Razor) there simply are not any groups analogous to the Gideons trying to place other religious texts in hotel rooms.

And for what it's worth, as another "owner" of the National Scenic Trail, I hereby give my tacit approval for any recognized religion to leave their bible or any other religions analogue in a trail shelter, provided that it is done in such a way as to not adversely impact the environment or the useability of the shelter. Bible, Talmud, Koran, Book of Mormon, whatever... these are all just "things", ink and paper, and any reaction they generate is dependent on the person encountering them. If that person has serious problems with being in the presence of any of these, then they may wish to spend some time contemplating the reasons, as that would indicate the potential for some unresolved issue they would do well to sort out.

Just out of curiosity, why specifically would it bother someone for there to be a bible (or any other single religious book) sitting in a shelter? Why would that be any different for any other book to sit there? Does the book wander over and nudge you awake, softly saying "read me, read me"?

Jaybird
11-21-2003, 10:19
RainMan:

Thanks for putting it into perspective!


I agree whole-heartedly...followers of Jesus need to LIVE the way the GOOD BOOK tells us to!


The most important ingredient "...IS LOVE."

I am a believer...but, i also feel, my relationship with my "Higher Power" which i choose to call: GOD, is a very personal thing.

as for literature, books, maps, etc, left in shelters.....i'm a true believer in
LEAVE NO TRACE...& that includes paper(s) of any kind.


:cool:

Skyline
11-21-2003, 10:43
Tray, there's nothing "LNT" about a shelter and it's surrounding area. A few pamphlets hurt jack *****t. In 17 years of AT hiking I've never seen pamphlets flying around the shelters like some describe. It's a f**cking non-issue! Y'all need to worry about much more important issues.

I've only been using the A.T. for a decade, but on some occasions I HAVE seen religious materials left by proselytizers in shelters. Quite a few Bibles, tho that may not be quite the same as leaflets I admit, but also multiple copies of "The Watchtower" (Jehovah's Witnesses) in PA, a bunch of leaflets that yelled "Repent!" in NC, religious-oriented material that qualified as hate-speech in VT in 2000 (the year the gay civil unions thing was a big deal up there), and certainly more tho I can't place the exact state or year right off. And then there are those few who monopolize two, three, or more pages of a register writing religious diatribes--I've seen that at the shelter I maintain in SNP.

It's not just the litter that these people leave behind that is disturbing--after all, unless soaking wet it can make great fire-starter. It's also the pollution of the mood and tone many of us seek when we go into the woods for a long hike. And this pollution extends to not just religious zealots but anyone else attempting to use the captive audience of those on the A.T. to promote an agenda, whatever the agenda.

But I agree, Lone Wolf, that a shelter in and of itself is, in a way, anti-LNT. But a necessary one. The alternative would be scores and scores of additional primitive campsites including no doubt some in places they don't belong that would cause far more damage. And shelters generally have a maintainer who is supposed to make regular visits to keep them clean, tidy, and in good repair. Don't think there are enough volunteers out there to do that with all those aforementioned campsites.

Alligator
11-21-2003, 14:00
Response is to Deeddawg, post 79. Keep in mind that I said ďsingle religious faithĒ.The legality of the placement of the ten commandments monument had nothing to do with whether Mr. Moore was a government official. If any non-government group or person had done it, it would still have been removed. The problem with the monument was that it promoted a single faith and that it was on government property in an accessible area that was public.Now, if there are several religions represented, this has been deemed lawful. Holiday representations in December are an example. If we have a Chanukah lights, a nativity scene, some Kwanzaa candles, and maybe a sun or something for the solstice, thatís OK. So, that individual leaving bibles in every shelter they come to is stepping on my rights. If they wish to leave a variety of materials, or partner with other organizations to do so, this would probably pass legal muster. In fact, a nice enclosed shelf with a variety of religious writings (in addition to the atheists point of view) in it would be blessing to us all, so that we could all read a little bit about other faiths. It might certainly dispel some of the ignorant, narrow-minded posts concerning world religions that were posted here.Itís not the bible sitting there bothering me. Itís the motive and lack of respect of the person who left it. As I have said previously, that single left bible is a message. ďI donít respect your beliefs enough to not bother you. Iím going to leave this here, without you asking because you need to convert.Ē I know this because of the pamphlets left or the writings left in the shelter register. Sure, I recognize that maybe somebody left it for simply comfort, but this is usually not the case. Itís usually someone ďSpreading the WORDĒ. As to hotel bibles, thatís a private business matter. The factors at work are numerous. Can you imagine the hotel chain taking them out publicly? Huge economic loss. Is the bible in the room a promotion of Christianity. Sure, a big fat ad. Ever seen anything else besides a bible? (Iíll bet youíd see a Book of Mormon in Utah.) Do you honestly think that other groups that have no interest in this area, or financing to accomplish it? Are my observations scientific? No, but Iím not interested in polling hotel owners. My second argument is LNT, pack it in pack it out. And thanks, I donít think I could have found the Bill of Rights without you. Do you think you could find me a link to the Declaration of Independence?

deeddawg
11-21-2003, 15:08
And thanks, I donít think I could have found the Bill of Rights without you. Do you think you could find me a link to the Declaration of Independence?

Sure thing: Declaration of Independence (http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=active&edition=us&q=declaration+of+independence&sa=N&tab=gw)

No reason to get snippy; I did not have any intention of being condescending, and I'm sorry you seem to think that. I have encountered many people who call upon the Bill of Rights to support an argument without having actually read the document.

As to your other points, we will have to agree to disagree as much of it is a matter of interpretation and making assumptions about the motives of anonymous persons. I see leaving a bible as making available a resource for those who choose to read; it is as much an "advertisement" for Christianity as a dictionary is an advertisement for proper spelling and increasing one's vocabulary. (hey, maybe a dictionary is a criticism against people who misspell words when writing in the shelter register?) Even if I viewed a bible as an advertisement, so long as no single group were given special consideration over others then I say go for it. But that my opinion; I offer it for consideration but by no means say you have to agree.

I guess I've just never felt threatened or imposed upon by inanimate objects representing faiths different from mine; they're just inanimate objects after all.

Cheers.

c.coyle
11-21-2003, 16:00
Hey, it's gonna be a beautiful, sunny, balmy weekend in Pennsylvania. Think I'll get up at 0600 Sunday, throw some things in the old pack, and go for a hike in Penns Woods. Maybe climb up Pole Steeple, look down at the lake, eat oranges with my wife. Afterwards, stop at a convenient publick house and celebrate with a few Yuenglings (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=682)



This hiking sure is serious business. :dance

Alligator
11-21-2003, 18:12
Sure thing: Declaration of Independence (http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=active&edition=us&q=declaration+of+independence&sa=N&tab=gw)

No reason to get snippy; I did not have any intention of being condescending, and I'm sorry you seem to think that. I have encountered many people who call upon the Bill of Rights to support an argument without having actually read the document.


It was condescending. I have read the Bill of Rights and the Constitution several times. Even studied the parts that were crossed out and the compromises that led to their deletion.

If there was a dictionary left in the shelter, I would definitely be wondering about motive. Like, "Who the f*&k carries a dictionary into the woods?"

Beyond the litter factor, it's really not the objects that bother me. It's the prosyletizing fanatic who left it there.

No need to write an answer for this but, "Do you really think that the person who humps a bible out to the shelter is leaving it as an ordinary book for someone to 'just read', with no ulterior motive"?

deeddawg
11-21-2003, 18:30
It was condescending.

As I said, it was not intended to be condescending; I guess I sometimes write for an audience more than just the person to whom I am replying. Nevertheless, you took it that way and so therefore I apologize.



If there was a dictionary left in the shelter, I would definitely be wondering about motive. Like, "Who the f*&k carries a dictionary into the woods?"

Beyond the litter factor, it's really not the objects that bother me. It's the prosyletizing fanatic who left it there.

No need to write an answer for this but, "Do you really think that the person who humps a bible out to the shelter is leaving it as an ordinary book for someone to 'just read', with no ulterior motive"?

Heh. It was, of course, an analogy. I too would probably wonder amusedly about someone who left a dictionary at a shelter. :)

I'm just about discussed out on this topic (do I hear Jack applauding?), so let me pose a rhetorical question in response. If the "prosyletizing fanatic" is no longer there, why does it matter why he or she left whatever he or she left? The object merely sits there quietly. (this is apart from the "litter" factor of stuff like tracts and pamphlets, I speak only of something such as a book or a bible, placed out of the way)

Jack Tarlin
11-21-2003, 18:51
Hey Alligator----

Considering your trailname, you're kinda thin-skinned. For someone who's so quick to take offense at other people's posts, or who finds other people's attitudes to be condescending, I must say that you could use a little tact yourself:

First off, the mere act of leaving a bible in a shelter does not make someone a fanatic, and your deliberate use of this term is as offensive at is it ignorant. And while I'd agree that asking a stranger personal questions about their spiritual beliefs is rude and unacceptable, I don't think that leaving a bible in a public place can be considered "proseletyzing." After all, nobody is forced to read this material, or even pick it up. Nobody is actively and forcefully attempting to convert anyone or change their religion (which is what "proseletyzing" means, by the way). In short, I don't think leaving a book in a shelter is that big an issue, and I can't for the life of me figure out why some folks are so bent out of shape over this.

If one is offended by, or disinterested in a particular TV show, movie, or musical performance, then one switches channels or goes to a different show. For example, nobody's forced to buy Michael Jackson albums; no one's forced to listen to National Public Radio; nobody's compelled to attend Britney Spears concerts or made to watch Michael Moore documentaries.

If one is offended by a particular person or public figure, such as a celebrity or politician, then you don't buy their records, don't see or support their public performances, don't vote for them, etc. For example, if you think Rosie O'Donnell is vulgar, load, and obnoxious, then don't see the show she's producing on Broadway. You can't stand John Kerry? Well don't vote for him. You think the Victoria's Secret special is unseemly? Well don't watch it, or buy some other brand of undie.

And in this vein, if one is troubled by a magazine, newspaper, or book, then you don't purchase it, and it's offerred to you for free, you simply decline to read it. No one is forcing you to pick it up.

Why is this concept so difficult for some folks to grasp?
And why are some folks so threatened by the mere presence of a book?

Honestly, folks, the energy expended on this entirely trivial matter is getting more than a little bit silly.

mntman777
11-21-2003, 19:32
It was condescending. I have read the Bill of Rights and the Constitution several times. Even studied the parts that were crossed out and the compromises that led to their deletion.

If there was a dictionary left in the shelter, I would definitely be wondering about motive. Like, "Who the f*&k carries a dictionary into the woods?"

Beyond the litter factor, it's really not the objects that bother me. It's the prosyletizing fanatic who left it there.

No need to write an answer for this but, "Do you really think that the person who humps a bible out to the shelter is leaving it as an ordinary book for someone to 'just read', with no ulterior motive"?
Again I've never left any bibles in the shelters or anything for that matter. But so what if there is an ulterior motive, you still don't have to read it. I think you need to grow up and get over it.

mntman777
11-21-2003, 19:37
Hey Alligator----

Considering your trailname, you're kinda thin-skinned. For someone who's so quick to take offense at other people's posts, or who finds other people's attitudes to be condescending, I must say that you could use a little tact yourself:

First off, the mere act of leaving a bible in a shelter does not make someone a fanatic, and your deliberate use of this term is as offensive at is it ignorant. And while I'd agree that asking a stranger personal questions about their spiritual beliefs is rude and unacceptable, I don't think that leaving a bible in a public place can be considered "proseletyzing." After all, nobody is forced to read this material, or even pick it up. Nobody is actively and forcefully attempting to convert anyone or change their religion (which is what "proseletyzing" means, by the way). In short, I don't think leaving a book in a shelter is that big an issue, and I can't for the life of me figure out why some folks are so bent out of shape over this.

If one is offended by, or disinterested in a particular TV show, movie, or musical performance, then one switches channels or goes to a different show. For example, nobody's forced to buy Michael Jackson albums; no one's forced to listen to National Public Radio; nobody's compelled to attend Britney Spears concerts or made to watch Michael Moore documentaries.

If one is offended by a particular person or public figure, such as a celebrity or politician, then you don't buy their records, don't see or support their public performances, don't vote for them, etc. For example, if you think Rosie O'Donnell is vulgar, load, and obnoxious, then don't see the show she's producing on Broadway. You can't stand John Kerry? Well don't vote for him. You think the Victoria's Secret special is unseemly? Well don't watch it, or buy some other brand of undie.

And in this vein, if one is troubled by a magazine, newspaper, or book, then you don't purchase it, and it's offerred to you for free, you simply decline to read it. No one is forcing you to pick it up.

Why is this concept so difficult for some folks to grasp?
And why are some folks so threatened by the mere presence of a book?

Honestly, folks, the energy expended on this entirely trivial matter is getting more than a little bit silly.
Once again Jack i like what you have to say. We may not agree on everything, but then we don't live in a perfect world. I look forward to meeting you again on the trail one day. Ken

The Old Fhart
11-21-2003, 22:45
I didnít hike the A.T. to find God because Iím pretty sure heís not lost and I know where he is. If he wants Iím sure he can find me without a GPS receiver or someone preaching to me on the trail. I carry the Old and New Testament in electronic form with me as I hike and I have read the entire Koran (in translation) and I can tell you this: The words of the various scriptures and how various religious sects interpret these teachings are worlds apart. The Koran is an amazingly liberal book and describes the worldís various religions as different trails to the top of the same mountain. As a hiker I can readily understand that analogy and I agree with it. It does not say one religion is better than another one or that we should convert others by Jihad or acts of terror; only extremists do that. For some of you to belittle other religions or say they are false is hypocritical and ďunchristianĒ, if I can use that word without offending anyone. While Iím not offended by Bibles in shelters, at the same time I really donít see the point of leaving them there. If a hiker feels the need to have religious material with them to show them the way, they can carry that material with them the same way they would carry maps or guidebooks if they want to find their physical way on the trail. They should not rely on, or expect others, to supply them with their spiritual or physical needs.
The bottom line is that if I want to discuss someoneís religion with them that is fine, each of us might learn something. But if that person is so closed-minded and only wants to convert me to their religion or convince me of the evil in my ways then they have crossed the line from discussion or debate and are not much better than any other zealot or extremist. One of the prime tenets of any religion is tolerance for the beliefs and rights of others (Judge not least ye be judged- I can quote the Bible with the best of them). We should all try to be respectful of others we meet as we hike the trail.
To L. Wolf: Sempi Fi, but I think you need another stick to jab people and stir things up; your old one is getting worn from use but keep up the good work- see you at Trail Days.
To Jack Tarlin: see you on Trashgiving and Iíve got another long and pointless story to tell you.
To all others: keep your faith, and please, keep it to yourself.

Crash
11-21-2003, 23:06
RainMan:

as for literature, books, maps, etc, left in shelters.....i'm a true believer in
LEAVE NO TRACE...& that includes paper(s) of any kind.



Then the all the AT clubs are in violation for leaving REGISTERS in the shelters.

It would be great to find all the books- bible, koran, talmud, book of morman, etc in a shelter. Hey, even literature from atheists, agnostics too.

Sometimes you need a little inspiration that the books can bring to you.

All of them are telling us to be better persons by loving others and treating them decently.

So leave the books for everyone to read and contemplate and make our Trail a little better.

mntman777
11-21-2003, 23:06
I didnít hike the A.T. to find God because Iím pretty sure heís not lost and I know where he is. If he wants Iím sure he can find me without a GPS receiver or someone preaching to me on the trail. I carry the Old and New Testament in electronic form with me as I hike and I have read the entire Koran (in translation) and I can tell you this: The words of the various scriptures and how various religious sects interpret these teachings are worlds apart. The Koran is an amazingly liberal book and describes the worldís various religions as different trails to the top of the same mountain. As a hiker I can readily understand that analogy and I agree with it. It does not say one religion is better than another one or that we should convert others by Jihad or acts of terror; only extremists do that. For some of you to belittle other religions or say they are false is hypocritical and ďunchristianĒ, if I can use that word without offending anyone. While Iím not offended by Bibles in shelters, at the same time I really donít see the point of leaving them there. If a hiker feels the need to have religious material with them to show them the way, they can carry that material with them the same way they would carry maps or guidebooks if they want to find their physical way on the trail. They should not rely on, or expect others, to supply them with their spiritual or physical needs.
The bottom line is that if I want to discuss someoneís religion with them that is fine, each of us might learn something. But if that person is so closed-minded and only wants to convert me to their religion or convince me of the evil in my ways then they have crossed the line from discussion or debate and are not much better than any other zealot or extremist. One of the prime tenets of any religion is tolerance for the beliefs and rights of others (Judge not least ye be judged- I can quote the Bible with the best of them). We should all try to be respectful of others we meet as we hike the trail.
To L. Wolf: Sempi Fi, but I think you need another stick to jab people and stir things up; your old one is getting worn from use but keep up the good work- see you at Trail Days.
To Jack Tarlin: see you on Trashgiving and Iíve got another long and pointless story to tell you.
To all others: keep your faith, and please, keep it to yourself.You should try reading the bible "again' because to believe that there are many ways to God, is to contradict what the bible says. I'm only saying this in case someone reading this wants to know the truthe. And to keep it to myself would also be contrary to Gods word. Because he says to go into all the lands and share the good news. May God bless you all.

Alligator
11-21-2003, 23:25
You folks all seem to think that I sit there staring at the bible angrily, circling the shelter, wondering if I should go in fearing that the book might open, then close around my head.

It is the act of leaving it there that bothers me. Not the book, the act and the person performing the act. People keep saying "Why does the bible threaten/bother you?" It's not the book...not the book...it's the person who is infringing on my hike out of some need to convince me to join their religion.

mntman777
11-21-2003, 23:34
You folks all seem to think that I sit there staring at the bible angrily, circling the shelter, wondering if I should go in fearing that the book might open, then close around my head.

It is the act of leaving it there that bothers me. Not the book, the act and the person performing the act. People keep saying "Why does the bible threaten/bother you?" It's not the book...not the book...it's the person who is infringing on my hike out of some need to convince me to join their religion.
Alligator, I just want you to know although I personally have not left a bible or anything else, regaurding my beliefs at any shelter or anywhere else for that matter. I want to truely apologise to you for ever posting anything about my beliefs to this thread. It seems you have a real issue with this. So I'm truely sorry. Peace to you all.

Alligator
11-22-2003, 00:03
Hey Alligator----

Considering your trailname, you're kinda thin-skinned. For someone who's so quick to take offense at other people's posts, or who finds other people's attitudes to be condescending, I must say that you could use a little tact yourself:

First off, the mere act of leaving a bible in a shelter does not make someone a fanatic, and your deliberate use of this term is as offensive at is it ignorant. And while I'd agree that asking a stranger personal questions about their spiritual beliefs is rude and unacceptable, I don't think that leaving a bible in a public place can be considered "proseletyzing." After all, nobody is forced to read this material, or even pick it up. Nobody is actively and forcefully attempting to convert anyone or change their religion (which is what "proseletyzing" means, by the way). In short, I don't think leaving a book in a shelter is that big an issue, and I can't for the life of me figure out why some folks are so bent out of shape over this.

Honestly, folks, the energy expended on this entirely trivial matter is getting more than a little bit silly.

Now listen here Cleveland Jack, let's not get clever with trailnames.

Let's talk definitions, where's that dictionary Deeddawg had, must've left it at the shelter. I'll have to use Miriam-Webster online.

“fanatic”
: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion

[to God] emphasis added.

One week while hiking, I had the benefit of hiking behind a "bible dropper". I was a week or two behind him, can't remember exactly. But while reading the shelter registers, I noticed this person was keeping track of the number left behind. The person was on 18th last I read, with the intention of leaving one in every shelter on the trail. The bibles weren't pocket sized, but were wider and taller than a thick paperback. That's excessive enthusiasm in my book. So is leaving books in places that are often miles and miles away from civilization in the vain hope that some uncommitted soul will suddenly convert to Christianity.

“proselytize”
1 : to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2 : to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause
transitive senses : to recruit or convert especially to a new faith, institution, or cause

“induce”
1 a : to move by persuasion or influence b : to call forth or bring about by influence or stimulation

The word force is not in the definition.

The people who leave bibles in the shelters are mostly aiming to persuade or influence me to become a Christian. I'll back off here because that's a bit stereotypical. To those Christians leaving bibles for the spriritual health of their fellow Christians, I apologize for lumping you in with the overly enthusiastic proselytizing crowd. I am actually sorry that I have had to focus on Christians and bibles. But to those Christians leaving bibles in order to effect conversion, I say lighten up. Get those extra bibles off your backs before you get into the woods.

Oh and Jack, if you think this is a trivial issue, don't post, nobody turned your browser to this thread.

Alligator
11-22-2003, 00:13
As I said, it was not intended to be condescending; I guess I sometimes write for an audience more than just the person to whom I am replying. Nevertheless, you took it that way and so therefore I apologize.




Heh. It was, of course, an analogy. I too would probably wonder amusedly about someone who left a dictionary at a shelter. :)


Accepted. Since I really was trying to be snippy I'm sorry for being a wise-ass.

illininagel
11-22-2003, 00:24
You should try reading the bible "again' because to believe that there are many ways to God, is to contradict what the bible says. I'm only saying this in case someone reading this wants to know the truthe. And to keep it to myself would also be contrary to Gods word. Because he says to go into all the lands and share the good news. May God bless you all.

How wonderful and convenient (for you that is)! Your way is the only way. And what happens to the rest of us? I'm almost afraid to ask as I'm sure it's something quite terrible. It's probably something that even the most sinister human being wouldn't wish upon another soul.

And, this is my LAST thread on this matter. This site should be all about hiking. It's just that I find it very offensive when someone condemns others for their beliefs. God granted us free will for a reason. And it's not: "your free to go to H*ll if you don't do exactly as I say." Enough said.

May God Bless You...

Alligator
11-22-2003, 00:29
Hey, I thought ass would be blocked out in wise-ass. Vulgarity is usually censored. *ass, bad-ass, (ass) wise.ass@ass.com Sorry just making a you know what out of myself :banana

Chappy
11-22-2003, 03:36
Alligator: You're beginning to sound as arrogant and intolerant as WF. Wanna switch this thread to cellphones?

10degrees
11-22-2003, 14:50
You should try reading the bible "again' because to believe that there are many ways to God, is to contradict what the bible says. I'm only saying this in case someone reading this wants to know the truthe. And to keep it to myself would also be contrary to Gods word. Because he says to go into all the lands and share the good news. May God bless you all.

Hey, god didn't say those things. There is no god. Some camel ridin' hippy with nothing better to do wrote it (at least as interpreted by someone with even less to do).

Ankle Bone
11-24-2003, 14:31
Do you think Jesus was a white blaze purist? What about that little blue-blaze into the desert fo 40 days?

illininagel
11-24-2003, 17:18
Do you think Jesus was a white blaze purist? What about that little blue-blaze into the desert fo 40 days?

Did he apply for the certificate?

Ankle Bone
11-24-2003, 17:46
I'd swear that there was a rocker patch on his shroud.

"Always look on the bright side of life" M. Python

Mike Drinkuth
11-24-2003, 18:37
YOU are god. EXPERIENCE creation and know you belong in it. You can't figure it out...there's nothing to figure out...you can never do wrong...you are just as perfect as that which others worship...you are one...whole...everything...you are whole, and here, and timeless, and nothing can ever make you imperfect. Try to swallow that and it becomes apparent that it ALL rests on your shoulders. Your experience is yours no matter how you try to ****** it up or make it GREAT it cannot be undone or tainted...ever. it is your experience and it is never ever imperfect...no matter what you do.
How about that for a god...you!
Why am I posting this...you religion nuts make stuff so much harder than it has to be! :bse

Campfire
11-24-2003, 18:57
YOU are god. EXPERIENCE creation and know you belong in it. You can't figure it out...there's nothing to figure out...you can never do wrong...you are just as perfect as that which others worship...you are one...whole...everything...you are whole, and here, and timeless, and nothing can ever make you imperfect. Try to swallow that and it becomes apparent that it ALL rests on your shoulders. Your experience is yours no matter how you try to ****** it up or make it GREAT it cannot be undone or tainted...ever. it is your experience and it is never ever imperfect...no matter what you do.
How about that for a god...you!
Why am I posting this...you religion nuts make stuff so much harder than it has to be! :bse


And this is why you have to "drinkuth"

cabalot
11-24-2003, 21:02
I'd swear that there was a rocker patch on his shroud.

"Always look on the bright side of life" M. Python


I think we need a holy hand-grenade

c.coyle
11-24-2003, 21:23
Do you think Jesus was a white blaze purist? What about that little blue-blaze into the desert fo 40 days?

He voted "sandals" in the footwear poll.

Israel
11-25-2003, 00:17
huh?? If what you say is true please do this simple little task for me to prove it....please make me an ameoba out of thin air. Afterall, if you are the inifinite God you profess to be this should be no problem.
I know enough about myself to know that I do not want me for a God. Luckily God's ways are not my ways. Love is greater than me and the source of love is certainly not me. And do you think that there is no such thing as right or wrong?



YOU are god. EXPERIENCE creation and know you belong in it. You can't figure it out...there's nothing to figure out...you can never do wrong...you are just as perfect as that which others worship...you are one...whole...everything...you are whole, and here, and timeless, and nothing can ever make you imperfect. Try to swallow that and it becomes apparent that it ALL rests on your shoulders. Your experience is yours no matter how you try to ****** it up or make it GREAT it cannot be undone or tainted...ever. it is your experience and it is never ever imperfect...no matter what you do.
How about that for a god...you!
Why am I posting this...you religion nuts make stuff so much harder than it has to be! :bse

Ankle Bone
11-25-2003, 09:28
"I think we need a holy hand-grenade"

I have a call in to Brother Maynard.

c.coyle
11-25-2003, 09:48
"I think we need a holy hand-grenade"

I have a call in to Brother Maynard.

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_sounds/hg/grenade.wav

Ankle Bone
11-25-2003, 10:52
http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_sounds/hg/grenade.wav

Thanks! You made my day. Now, if I can just give the old man from scene 24 the correct answers.....

barefoothiker
11-25-2003, 11:44
I've been following this thread with great interest since I am a seminarian. The range from serious to fun is great. Myself, I do not have a problem with religious items left in a shelter as long as they won't fly away and litter up the place or put excessive clutter I do not see a problem. My other preference is that as long as what is left does not slam another faith group (ie: Jack Chick tracts), ecumenical dialogue is much preferred because we all can learn from eachother. I know some people who hike the trail do so as a personal retreat so sometimes finding some spiritual nourishment in a shelter is a help.

PAX!

Dan G.

smokymtnsteve
11-25-2003, 13:58
for somr REAL spiritual nourishment on the trail ..try reading some Edward Abbey..dessert solitare....

eddie said that nothing as grotesque as christainity could possible be true and nothing as silly as mormanism could possibly be all bad :-?

rickb
11-25-2003, 14:04
A bible in the shelter isn't going to bother me any more than a Maxim will.

That said, so long as the AT is a public trail, I'd prefer that they be removed by any maintainer who happens upon one. Along with that Maxim.

I'm not a ACLU type, but I do believe that the fact that the AT is a public place (as in owned by the public), does make a difference.

Rick B

Chappy
11-26-2003, 00:47
for somr REAL spiritual nourishment on the trail ..try reading some Edward Abbey..dessert solitare....

eddie said that nothing as grotesque as christainity could possible be true and nothing as silly as mormanism could possibly be all bad :-?


SMSteve: Why do you feel the need to take on opinions given by others with whom you might disagree? Barefoothiker made some salient points directed to the question that started this thread? Could it be you feel threatened or perhaps concerned that those of the Christian faith are correct and you'll be found on the wrong side when you long distance hike comes to an end.

Feel free to reply to this, but I'll not be reading it. This thread has gone far beyond it's original question.

Lone Wolf
11-26-2003, 01:16
I agree with smokymtnsteve. Christians are misguided, scared, paranoid folks. Abbey IS God. :)

Hammock Hanger
11-26-2003, 10:21
I'm not for or against flyers in the shelters. I myself wouldn't leave them but didn't find them intrusive when I found them.

In 2000 a priest was part of our trail family. He said Mass everyday somewhere on the trail. Occasionally he would invite someone to partake. Some hikers said yes others said no. He was never offended. Other hikers would find him and ask if they could partake, not all were of his exact religion.

I personally could never have made it without my God. As most hikers my absoultions were done privately.

Sue/HH

smokymtnsteve
11-26-2003, 10:31
SMSteve: Why do you feel the need to take on opinions given by others with whom you might disagree? Barefoothiker made some salient points directed to the question that started this thread? Could it be you feel threatened or perhaps concerned that those of the Christian faith are correct and you'll be found on the wrong side when you long distance hike comes to an end.

Feel free to reply to this, but I'll not be reading it. This thread has gone far beyond it's original question.


well I'm more concerned about being on the correct side and heading in the right direction (NOBO) while I'm on my long distance hike...no I'm not concerned about christain faith being correct or any of the others organized religions for that matter..as a matter of fact they all have some good and some evil in them..some more evil than others...I'm not concerned at all about the time my long distance hike on this planet comes to an end...I'm sure that the sharing of trail Magic will continue...as a matter of fact I'm kinda looking forward to new trails in new worlds...and flying with the buzzards along with abbey is good enough for me ...have you ever read any abbey???...all long distance hikers should ..you might learn something...

I was just commenting on real spritual nourishment onthe trail...eddie abbey does it for me ..the bible doesn't ....maybe a little horace Kephart is good too..

I purchase eddie abbey books and carry then with me..instead of leaving them laying in shelters I give them to other hikers who want them and then ask them to pass it along when they are finished or to mail the book back to me and I will refund thier postage and then send them another abbey book or a John Steinbeck ....

Blue Jay
11-26-2003, 11:40
Oh, no, I hate to admit it but I left an Edward Abbey in a shelter after I had finished it once. Great book, now I'm going to hell just like the bible thumpers said I would.

smokymtnsteve
11-26-2003, 11:56
Oh, no, I hate to admit it but I left an Edward Abbey in a shelter after I had finished it once. Great book, now I'm going to hell just like the bible thumpers said I would.


do not worry blue jay ...I leave'em in shelters too..I just don't admit to it ;)

Matt Pincham
11-26-2003, 13:19
I personally could never have made it without my God. As most hikers my absoultions were done privately.

Sue/HH

Careful Sue.

If 'YOUR' God isn't 'THE' God one of these fruitcakes is going to bite your head off. I really think this post has gone way too far now (well it went way too far ages ago). Religion bashing is an unending dispute that really has no place on this forum.

So anyway, let's change subject. You're quite a character on here HH (see your name a lot). You heading out this year?

Matt

rickb
11-26-2003, 14:04
I remember the Priest.

First 4000 footer a SOBO reaches down south, right?

Rick B

mntman777
11-26-2003, 16:42
YOU are god. EXPERIENCE creation and know you belong in it. You can't figure it out...there's nothing to figure out...you can never do wrong...you are just as perfect as that which others worship...you are one...whole...everything...you are whole, and here, and timeless, and nothing can ever make you imperfect. Try to swallow that and it becomes apparent that it ALL rests on your shoulders. Your experience is yours no matter how you try to ****** it up or make it GREAT it cannot be undone or tainted...ever. it is your experience and it is never ever imperfect...no matter what you do.
How about that for a god...you!
Why am I posting this...you religion nuts make stuff so much harder than it has to be! :bse
I Guess if I'm God and I feel its ok for me to go around killing stupid people who say stupid things, then its ok. I mean if I am God, or we are all our own God, then he who believes its ok to rape or whatever, then its ok. Yeah lets all follow you.

Nightwalker
11-28-2003, 19:47
I agree with smokymtnsteve. Christians are misguided, scared, paranoid folks. Abbey IS God. :)

Wolf, I've been looking at this post for days, and even though it's old, I feel that I have to reply. What have we--personally--ever done to you? Remember that not everyone who uses God's name is from God. You and I both could come up with lots of money/power trippers who fit that description.

Whatever the reason, I wish that you'd attempt to take us on an individual basis. Weird as I am, I'm a pretty nice guy, and one of the other guys that I've already met here, Christian to boot, is as calm and kind as anyone I've met in years.

What am I getting at? I'm not gonna judge you. I'm guessing that your attitude comes from pain or anger from something long past. I may be wrong. Either way, it's your choice. On the other side of the coin, please don't pre-judge me because I'm a Christian. Most of us are quiet and helpful. It's the loud hateful ones that mess it up for all of us. According to the Bible, most of them aren't even Christians anyway. And oh boy, would I love one of them to challenge me on that!

Hate and judgementalism (is that a word?) are not even part of Chrisianity, so just dismiss those types as lost, angry souls in pain who have totally misunderstood what they believe to be the principles of Christianity.

BTW, I have no hard feelings against you for your postings. Your feelings are your business, and I hope to see you on the trail sometime. :)

Frank

altec
11-29-2003, 01:40
I Guess if I'm God and I feel its ok for me to go around killing stupid people who say stupid things, then its ok. I mean if I am God, or we are all our own God, then he who believes its ok to rape or whatever, then its ok. Yeah lets all follow you.

If he truly feels the way he does, and has denounced God in his entirety, then this statement is true. Think about it: When God dies, there is noone to dictate moral law, and therefore the individual creates their own moral law. Interesting isn't it....I just came to terms with this idea, and am currently deciding what ethincs and morals are right for me.....to make me happy in MY life.

mntman777
11-29-2003, 02:00
If he truly feels the way he does, and has denounced God in his entirety, then this statement is true. Think about it: When God dies, there is noone to dictate moral law, and therefore the individual creates their own moral law. Interesting isn't it....I just came to terms with this idea, and am currently deciding what ethincs and morals are right for me.....to make me happy in MY life.Interesting is one way to put it. Dangerous is a better word. By the way are you 100 % sold on being an athiest? Just curious. I just want you to know I believe God exists and he loves you very much.

Lone Wolf
11-29-2003, 09:26
Yo Frank. I wasn't being serious. Note the smiley face in the post.

altec
11-29-2003, 12:51
Interesting is one way to put it. Dangerous is a better word. By the way are you 100 % sold on being an athiest? Just curious. I just want you to know I believe God exists and he loves you very much.

I think that the dangerousness is in the eye of the beholder. I sent you a PM regarding this idea or philosophy, and if you want to respond and have some sort of discussion on this topic, feel free to respond. I love having these types of debates, especially if it is with someone who appears to have a level head and will listen to what I have to say before responding. I just do not want to clutter this thread with a debate that is so far off topic.

With best regards mntman777,
Tray

Nightwalker
11-29-2003, 16:00
Yo Frank. I wasn't being serious. Note the smiley face in the post.

It's okay Wolf, I just had to put my 1.5 c. in. :)

Frank

flyfisher
11-29-2003, 16:35
I believe it is naive to believe that religious belief can be kept politically correct as many of the posts in this thread entreat. Within many belief systems, there is a requirement to more or less "get in the face" of those who do not believe... I come from a christian background which calls me to spread the gospel. That means, in my understanding, giving testimony of what Christ's blood did for me. Others come from different backgrounds in which simple "live and let live" is not enough.

I don't litter shelters with gospel tracts, though I have been known to start fires with those I find. I seldom bring religious topics up as a first or second or third subject. I'd rather hear about your gear, your friends, your life. As a matter of fact, you are more likely to bring up a spiritual topic than I am...

However, I expect to be emotionally and intellectually challenged in my beliefs from time to time. I appreciate your not injuring my body in your zeal to share your views. However, if you wish for me to be a wuss about religious beliefs as some sort of quasi-ecological "leave no trace" ethic, this smacks of laziness to me. Maybe someone believes that beliefs don't really matter much and that they don't want to be bothered. If so, I'd suggest learning a little spiritual/emotional self defense. That position invites attack from within and from without.

Rick

Crash
11-29-2003, 18:59
Within many belief systems, there is a requirement to more or less "get in the face" of those who do not believe... I come from a christian background which calls me to spread the gospel. That means, in my understanding, giving testimony of what Christ's blood did for me. Others come from different backgrounds in which simple "live and let live" is not enough.
Rick

Giving testimony can also be done by living by example. Actions speak louder than words. And besides theres too much noise out on the trail anyway. So spread to those who want to listen. and those that dont - well leave them alone until they come around.

flyfisher
11-29-2003, 19:54
Giving testimony can also be done by living by example. Actions speak louder than words.

Oh, I agree. About 99 percent of the time in my opinion. And I think I have never shared my verbal testimony out on the trail with anyone. Or anyone here, for that matter. My point is that it is naive to believe that PC always works, or should.

Rick

eyahiker
05-19-2004, 22:31
You know, this whole thread is just a joke - obviously Alligator(THREAD STARTER), who joined on 5/2 has not read some of the worm-can openings that have already been done on this site, I suggest that this is not the place to start bashing other's peoples beliefs.

I also believe in God and Jesus Christ, and have had plenty to say on this site, especially when it comes to people posting about using all SORTS of 'religious' materials for things like TP. I think that litter is litter, and all sorts are guilty of it! Religion, from the latin word "RELIGARE" transl:To Live By;
I think lots of us here may like to 'live by' lots of things, including being hikers.

Those who are most intolerant are those who seem to cry BE TOLERANT!, go back folks and read your posts - you only jumped on the 'Christian' thing.

Everyone has the right to state what they believe... mntman777 was the first to blatently tell you what he believed and the REACTORS have only reacted. So what do you believe? Why? What if you are wrong? Where do you get your information and basis for belief? We're listening if you'd shut your mouths in retaliation because you don't like 'Christians' (which actually confirms/strengthens our beliefs, since the Bible tells us clearly that we will meet head on with those who hate us)

I mean -what do you hope to accomplish here? That someone will run away and NOT want to believe what they do now? And if this is you goal - why do you want this?

It seems to me that folks here are irked when someone is strong and sure in their beliefs, no matter what they may be.

If you want to start with trashing God or Jesus - do it somewhere else - you are acting MOST intolerant..........

Athiests believe there is not GOD...............hmmmm, don't you have to HAVE something to NOT believe it in......

I believe I will not post again here, does the post still exist?:confused:

Rain Man
05-19-2004, 23:01
You know, this whole thread is just a joke - obviously Alligator(THREAD STARTER), who joined on 5/2 has not read some of the worm-can openings that have already been done ....

The last post in this thread was in November, and you come along in late May and stir the pot, trying to open this can of worms again here?

Please practice what you preach. Read before you post.

Thanks.

Rain Man

:confused:

.

Alligator
05-20-2004, 07:55
You know, this whole thread is just a joke - obviously Alligator(THREAD STARTER), who joined on 5/2 has not read some of the worm-can openings that have already been done on this site, I suggest that this is not the place to start bashing other's peoples beliefs.


Let's get a couple of things straight here. I joined on 5/2/2003 . That's 10 months before you did. This thread died in November, 3+ months before you joined. This thread was not a joke or a troll, but rather a response to some comments I received on another post. Try reading from the beginning of the thread. In fact somebody else, Magic_game03, repeated my original post, so get your facts straight.

As to people stirring things up, it is you.

Since this thread has been dead for so long, and since I started it, I will take the liberty of being the last poster. If any of you feel the need to continue, move over to Magic's thread or start your own thread.

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 08:05
Hey Alligator, you're right, I was wrong about your sign up date - how about that, I actually made a mistake in the midst of total frustration at watching this thread 'unravel', no matter how long it took, or how many months...
White Blaze is here is to stir pots BTW.

No thanks, I'll stay here if I wish, and quietly watch you completely roll yourself into an angry frenzy because you have nothing to believe in :banana


I still love you, and hope that someday you find the peace that can be yours. Would like to see many of the folks here (Hikers, who I think are some of the coolest people on this planet) stop being such intolerant whiners when someone mentions Jesus. He was the head hiker and if you would like to take the time to read the Bible which you so adamantly oppose in the shelters, you will find reference after reference to walking, nature, shelters, storms, mountains, eagles, it goes on and on and is full of wisdom.

None of us are perfect, but I feel good when I hike to be close to the Creator of the Trail and the Universe.:clap

Blue Jay
05-20-2004, 08:16
No thanks, I'll stay here if I wish, and quietly watch you completely roll yourself into an angry frenzy because you have nothing to believe in :banana


I still love you, and hope that someday you find the peace that can be yours.

Eyahiker, I personally am glad you're here. It isn't often there is someone more irritating than I am. :clap

okpik
05-20-2004, 08:49
..................................

Hammock Hanger
05-20-2004, 09:09
As a long standing member of this forum I would like to request that we end this post!!

We believe what we believe. I try and share my religion by my actions. Hoping others will see God thru me and not my words.

However, this is a HIKING FORUM. The statement that originally started this thresd is long since dead and lost. Let's not bash each other online, it is way to easy. If any one wants to sit down face to face on the trail that would be a different situation. But I think we have gone as far as we can go with this here on Whiteblaze.

There was a hiker at Trail Days that had a dog with a cat on his back, and the cat had a couple of mice on his back. His montra was: "Can't we all just get along!"

Sue/Hammock Hanger

Lone Wolf
05-20-2004, 09:12
Bush/Cheney 04. We need to drill ANWR NOW! $2.02 a gallon is too much for my new Hog.

Alligator
05-20-2004, 09:18
Hey Alligator, you're right, I was wrong about your sign up date - how about that, I actually made a mistake in the midst of total frustration at watching this thread 'unravel', no matter how long it took, or how many months...
White Blaze is here is to stir pots BTW.

Hey, own up to your mistakes, don't blame them on the thread. Wouldn't Jesus completely want you to be responsible for your actions.


No thanks, I'll stay here if I wish, and quietly watch you completely roll yourself into an angry frenzy because you have nothing to believe in :banana

While I can certainly get angry with the best of them, you are again mistaken. YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT I BELIEVE IN. You are quite foolish to assume that I have no belief in a higher spiritual power. I have simply not chosen to broadcast it.


I still love you,

but we just met and hardly know each other (and already I want to break it off)


and hope that someday you find the peace that can be yours.
So God-honest sweet. You're on to me, I have no peace in my life. Every day is a living hell...


Would like to see many of the folks here (Hikers, who I think are some of the coolest people on this planet) stop being such intolerant whiners when someone mentions Jesus. He was the head hiker and if you would like to take the time to read the Bible which you so adamantly oppose in the shelters, you will find reference after reference to walking, nature, shelters, storms, mountains, eagles, it goes on and on and is full of wisdom.

None of us are perfect, but I feel good when I hike to be close to the Creator of the Trail and the Universe.:clap
I've taken the time to read the bible.

I too hike with great appreciation for this great creation, but the litter's got to stop. Pack it in, Pack it out.

Lone Wolf
05-20-2004, 09:19
Registers don't belong in shelters either.

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 09:21
I agree, NLT, and it pisses me off as well when others don't regardless of what the trash is.

L.Wolf - I'm gonna agree with you on this one as well. Nice to have news for some, but I've read on WB several times where others have been pissed off by what was written in them. Can we use these for TP?


Alligator: So, what do you believe? Why don't you want to broadcast it? Are you ashamed of this?

I am happy to hear you call me on the fact that I possibly did not act as Jesus would - I need that sometimes!

Lone Wolf
05-20-2004, 09:36
I'm agnostic and Pro Life.

chomp
05-20-2004, 09:40
Would like to see many of the folks here (Hikers, who I think are some of the coolest people on this planet) stop being such intolerant whiners when someone mentions Jesus. He was the head hiker and if you would like to take the time to read the Bible which you so adamantly oppose in the shelters, you will find reference after reference to walking, nature, shelters, storms, mountains, eagles, it goes on and on and is full of wisdom.
You got one thing right.. the bible does go on.. and on.. and on...

I could really engage in long debate as to invalidity of organized religions and disprove the foundations of your beliefs, but this is not a relgious site, this is a hiker site.

So instead I will offer this - over-enthustiastic belief in any sort of organized religion is the cause of many of today's world problems. Look at Isreal and the rest of the Muslim world. Look to the past - the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc... Examples are boundless.

Believe what you want to believe, but don't be superior about it. You know what? You might be right, I might be wrong. Good for you, but I don't want to hear about it. If I ask, then please give me your best sales pitch and tell me about all the great things that your religion brings.

Otherwise, treat the relgious topic like sex - bring it up in appropriate conversations. Be tolerant of those that don't believe what you believe. Why is it that pushing Jesus is considered OK, but saying that a bible in a shelter is intolerant? Would you rather me leave a book in a shelter describing why I think that Jesus sucks a big one? Afterall, that is my belief. But I don't really feel the need to try to "sell" you that.

Alligator
05-20-2004, 09:57
There is no shame in what I believe.

Tactic #1. Suggest shame so that the other person has to be drawn into the conversation about their religious beliefs. Make them defend their religion.

Sorry not biting. I didn't start this thread because I wanted to discuss theology. Rather, my hope was to generate a discussion about what people feel are acceptable bounds to religious activity in the backcountry, specifically at the shelters. If you wish to run with that thought go ahead.

chomp
05-20-2004, 10:10
Rather, my hope was to generate a discussion about what people feel are acceptable bounds to religious activity in the backcountry, specifically at the shelters.
Open religious activity or "advertising" has no place in the backcountry. Religious groups should pick an isolated location to have a religious-based meeting or discussion. No religious materials should be in a shelter. Just because you believe what you believe doesn't mean that you are not offending others with those beliefs. If you are the kind of person that would leave a bible in a shelter, ask yourself this - what would do you if you found a journal of someone's Satanic ramblings in a shelter?

Lone Wolf
05-20-2004, 10:12
******* good point chomp!

Desert Lobster
05-20-2004, 10:33
What's the point of announcing your religious beliefs? Is it that these folks are so insecure that they feel the need to have other folks heartily agree with them and thus validate their beliefs and make them feel special. It appears these folks are just insecure. It reminds me of a high school kid who acts out just to get attention.

Desert Lobster
05-20-2004, 10:35
Lone Wolf,

You're getting off cheap in Damascus. Now buy a razor with what you have saved!

weary
05-20-2004, 12:21
You should try reading the bible "again' because to believe that there are many ways to God, is to contradict what the bible says. I'm only saying this in case someone reading this wants to know the truthe. And to keep it to myself would also be contrary to Gods word. Because he says to go into all the lands and share the good news. May God bless you all.

There is not one bible, but many bibles. All the world's religions have their sacred books, their bibles. They have varying messages. The Christian and Jewish bibles seem to record a particularly jealous God. Some other religions are theoretically, at least, more tolerant of other's beliefs leading to the same spiritual end.

In my observation, however, although many profess to believe in and practice their religion as required by their respective bibles, very few actually do so. The current issue of Newsweek has an interesting piece on the two authors of the "Left Behind" series of novels. Both claim to believe in the literal truth of their bible.

But both live lives of luxury, despite Christ's injunction to sell all you have and give to the poor. In their minds Christ was wrong, that it's better to keep their millions and spread their version of what the bible means.

Getting back to bibles in shelters, I'm not up on what ATC recommends, but the Maine Appalachian Trail Club requires its shelter maintainers to remove all items left in shelters by hikers -- including bibles. REgisters are left by MATC volunteers and are the property of MATC. Registers left by others are also supposed to be removed in accordance with the guidelines.

Do all maintainers follow the MATC rules? No. Like religious people around the world, we tend to follow those rules we think wise and ignore the rest.

Most everyone who read George Orwell's "1984," seemed to think his concept of "doublethink," the holding of two opposing views at the same time, was a product of the communist culture. My reading was different. I had long believed that doublethinking is a common human characteristic, practiced by all, even the authors of "Christian" books with combined sales of 62 million at last count.

WEary

mntman777
05-20-2004, 13:34
"I could really engage in long debate as to invalidity of organized religions and disprove the foundations of your beliefs, but this is not a relgious site, this is a hiker site."

Chmop, for you to assume that you can disprove the foundations of my beliefs is pretty much the most intolerant direspectful and stupid thing i have ever heard. You have no idea what those foundations are.

I as a christian do not agree with a lot of things concerning organized religion. However my faith and belief in the one and only true God and his son Christ who died for us all (whether one believes or not) is not based on nor has anything to do with organized religion. It is solely based on my personal relationship with him.

I believe the BIBLE i.e. King James ect to be the inspired word of God and no other. This is my belief. If it is not yours, then ok. To lump all the material believed by all differant religions together is realy not the most intelligant thing said on this post. God bless you all.

Floops
05-20-2004, 13:45
You got one thing right.. the bible does go on.. and on.. and on...
<snip>
Would you rather me leave a book in a shelter describing why I think that Jesus sucks a big one? Afterall, that is my belief. But I don't really feel the need to try to "sell" you that.
You'll be remembering that quote for a very long time. May God have mercy on your soul.

Rain Man
05-20-2004, 13:57
Matthew 6:5-8

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret....

... use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them:

:banana

chomp
05-20-2004, 14:07
"I could really engage in long debate as to invalidity of organized religions..."



However my faith and belief ... is not based on nor has anything to do with organized religion. It is solely based on my personal relationship with him.

Then we really don't have a problem then, do we? As long as you are not leaving Bibles in shelters or trying to make you think that your beliefs are superior to mine, then there is not issue here. Believe what you want to believe, and don't make an issue where there is none.

Blue Jay
05-20-2004, 14:08
Very good post Rainman. This is an idea that transcends the religious dogma of all religions. Another theologian said "those who speak do not know, those who know do not speak".

chomp
05-20-2004, 14:09
You'll be remembering that quote for a very long time. May God have mercy on your soul.
Probably as long as I live. And I don't need any mercy, thanks.

mntman777
05-20-2004, 14:26
So chomp if i decided to leave a bible in a shelter just what sort of problem would we have.?

Blue Jay
05-20-2004, 14:36
So chomp if i decided to leave a bible in a shelter just what sort of problem would we have.?

No problem at all they make wonderful fire starters.

zen-doctor
05-20-2004, 14:38
Blue Jay:
Your subtle insertion of the Tao into this sensitive discussion is much appreciated! :welcome

mntman777
05-20-2004, 14:42
I'm sorry is your name chomp? Just kidding

Blue Jay
05-20-2004, 14:46
Blue Jay:
Your subtle insertion of the Tao into this sensitive discussion is much appreciated! :welcome

SUBTLE, how dare you. No one has ever called me that, I am soooo upset.

Alligator
05-20-2004, 14:49
So chomp if i decided to leave a bible in a shelter just what sort of problem would we have.?

I think he'd bust your a$$ so far into next week they'd be calling you plainswoman666...

That's a JOKE by the way. You get entirely too hot under the collar for this type of discussion. You know this whole thread started because you had an issue with a pet peeve, mntman777. You were quick to enter the discussion. Then, you disappear for several months (prison? JOKE#2) and return to whiteblaze wherein you stoke eyahiker's curiousity enough so that she drops in to this decidedly old thread. You haven't been back but a couple of days and you're ready to throw. You were STILL hot about this thread which ended over 5 months ago. So chill the F___ out.

mntman777
05-20-2004, 14:59
Good ole Alli. I was wondering when you would chime in. Just for the record i am not hot about anything especially this topic. You want to fight about it. I think blue jay knows that. I was being intagonistic, but laughing too. Maybe your too hot about this. Ya big baby.

chomp
05-20-2004, 15:00
So chomp if i decided to leave a bible in a shelter just what sort of problem would we have.?
Just you being a hypocrite. If you religion is a deeply personal thing - keep it that way.

mntman777
05-20-2004, 15:11
Listen I will do just that. I will keep it all to myself. The fact that according to what i believe, God loves us all so much that he made one way for us to spend eternity with Him in heaven, and that is to believe in Jesus Christ and that he died for us and was raised from the dead. And He says to go and share this with all who will listen so that no one will be lost. All because He loves us. I will do just that. I will keep it for those who want to hear. And just for the record if you don,t want to hear, i don't have a problem with you. God loves you. Peace.

Desert Lobster
05-20-2004, 15:29
You sort of resemble Moses!

I always wondered why you didn't get wet crossing streams.

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 15:35
Alligator, Since when is it shameful to ask someone what they believe? I only wanted to know, not to judge you (wow, you talk like you're scared) - you already know clearly where I stand, I am a follower of Christ. Nice try, but you can't enter "shame" in here coming from anyone else but your own self, and your own insecurities, OR you believe in nothing. That's your perogative.

Again, this is an anti-tolerant discussion aimed specifically at Christians and those who believe in the one true God.

It amazes me how riled up you all get when someone has a firm belief.

I thought hikers were so open minded, living their lives already against the flow of our society at large by choosing to spend time in the woods, I suppose I am wrong.

If this is a leave no trace thread, that talk about LNT ethics and skip bitching about religious messages. NOTHING you say here will stop it, regardless who is leaving them, and what one does with what one considers trash is up to them.

The bottom line here is taking responsibility for your actions. If you do not choose to answer to someone/something, such as GOD, you have no one to answer to but yourself. So that goes for all of those who leave trash around shelters, again regardles of what it is made of, and they have no one to answer to either.

You will not stop them.
They do not care.
You have to walk your own walk, and there are always consequences whether you like it or not, in one way or another, or to someone or something.

Where is the big mystery here? Are you guys that hateful and full of angst about Christians? One usually fears what they do not understand....which I believe is a Taoist proverb ( guarantee no one will start slamming Taoism - or WILLTHEY?????)

I highly doubt it. I still love all you guys, and nothing you can say can take away my strong faith in God and his son Jesus Christ.:D
Each negative word makes it so much stronger!

HEY CHOMP - if religion is such a "deeply personal' thing, why are you opening your nasty mouth? Hipocrite yourself!

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 15:44
mntman777 says:


Chomp, for you to assume that you can disprove the foundations of my beliefs is pretty much the most intolerant direspectful and stupid thing i have ever heard. You have no idea what those foundations are.Hey brother, you keep up the faith, I am so happy to see someone else in here standing up for Christ. These 'human beings' are only doing exactly what the Bible states they will do - AMAZING! They are verifying God's word and don't even know it! How cool is that, they have no idea how instrumental they can be for the cause of Christ!

Unfortunately, there is a place and time for the pearl/swine thing, and here may be it, people always dislike people who seem to have "more" than they do, if they say otherwise they are liars, otherwise you would not have such adversarial postings against your beliefs. Again, those who are lost need someone to push their feelings of their own insecurity on, talk is cheap, and one day they will be 100% alone to face the end of their life and their creator. Hopefully their hearts will be softened long before that inevitable moment we will all face.

weary
05-20-2004, 16:25
No problem at all they make wonderful fire starters.

I personally prefer dry newspapers.

Weary

Alligator
05-20-2004, 16:29
Alligator, Since when is it shameful to ask someone what they believe? I only wanted to know, not to judge you (wow, you talk like you're scared) - you already know clearly where I stand, I am a follower of Christ. Nice try, but you can't enter "shame" in here coming from anyone else but your own self, and your own insecurities, OR you believe in nothing. That's your perogative.

You have a definite reading disorder. Get help. To recap


Alligator: So, what do you believe? Why don't you want to broadcast it? Are you ashamed of this?
Then I wrote,


There is no shame in what I believe.

Tactic #1. Suggest shame so that the other person has to be drawn into the conversation about their religious beliefs. Make them defend their religion.

I did not say it was shameful for you to ask. I said you used the implication of shame to try to draw me into your conversation about religion. I don't have any insecurities regarding religion. You really need to stop projecting feelings onto me, like shame, fear, insecurity, and of course your love. I have many friends who would sincerely be laughing at you to describe me so. I may even print this out to give them a good laugh around the campfire this weekend. Most often I get described as an arrogant SOB. (or a big baby :rolleyes: ).



Again, this is an anti-tolerant discussion aimed specifically at Christians and those who believe in the one true God.
I'd be happy to bash any religious group that leaves trash in the shelters.



It amazes me how riled up you all get when someone has a firm belief.
Like you for instance.



I thought hikers were so open minded, living their lives already against the flow of our society at large by choosing to spend time in the woods, I suppose I am wrong.

If this is a leave no trace thread, that talk about LNT ethics and skip bitching about religious messages. NOTHING you say here will stop it, regardless who is leaving them, and what one does with what one considers trash is up to them.

Those damn religious hikers, they are so unstoppably single-minded. I guess I shouldn't try to change their ways, and should accept that they are trying to change mine!? I guess you are saying that the religious hikers are not open-minded then?

I was retreating from the flow of society, but then it came to my attention that the overly zealous religious folks started leaving trash in the backcountry.

chomp
05-20-2004, 16:47
Listen I will do just that. I will keep it all to myself.
Your post should have stopped there. Instead, you went on to TELL me exactly what you believe. Does your hypocricy know no boundries?



And He says to go and share this with all who will listen so that no one will be lost.
You know who else tells you to do this? People who write chain letters, cults, pyramid schemes, comedians, etc... So when you say "I will keep it all to myself", please do so. However, I doubt that is possible.

chomp
05-20-2004, 16:54
Again, this is an anti-tolerant discussion aimed specifically at Christians and those who believe in the one true God.

Actually, its an anti-tolerant debate about religious people who think that they are better than everyone else and can post off-topic all they want just because the LOVE JESUS...



I thought hikers were so open minded, living their lives already against the flow of our society at large by choosing to spend time in the woods, I suppose I am wrong.

The only thing that you are wrong about is thinking that you are open minded. If you were, you would understand that not everyone wants to see a bible when they roll into a shelter for the night.



If this is a leave no trace thread, that talk about LNT ethics and skip bitching about religious messages. NOTHING you say here will stop it, regardless who is leaving them, and what one does with what one considers trash is up to them.

Because religious extremesits are also elitists and feel the need to preach and convert. Believe what you want to believe, but please let me out of it.



( guarantee no one will start slamming Taoism - or WILLTHEY?????)

No one has been in my face lately telling me how great Taoism is, or why I should convert to Taoism or how I'll be damned if I don't believe what they believe... so no, I don't think that I'll slam Taoism today.



HEY CHOMP - if religion is such a "deeply personal' thing, why are you opening your nasty mouth? Hipocrite yourself!
I have not spoken anything about my religion... in fact I said that I would not discuss it. Rather, I take exception to you talking about yours. The topic is - Bibles in Shelters. Your inability to stay on topic only further proves your lack of rationality and objectivness.

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 16:54
Your post should have stopped there. Instead, you went on to TELL me exactly what you believe. Does your hypocricy know no boundries?

Hey CHOMP, since when does telling what you believe become HYPROCRISY in your book, you should learn the english language. Your post made NO sense.

What do YOU believe? You obviously have a lot of experience with chain letters, cults, pyramid schemes, comedians, etc... So by all means do share since YOU can't keep YOUR mouth shut either HYPOCRITE ( now that would be the correct use of the word in a sentence.:bse

jersey joe
05-20-2004, 16:58
Ah, such a deep discussion on religion, I will refrain from adding my own opinion but I will share a quick story.
I was leafing through a shelter register in NC and came across a simple unprovoked author-less line...

"If there was no fear of death, there would be no religion".

Of all the shelter registers I read, I can't say I remember much, but for some reason that line stuck in my head...

chomp
05-20-2004, 17:04
Your post made NO sense.

OK, I just wrote a scathing post about your reading skills, but I think I understand THIS problem now. You are not reading my posts (or others) on the board, but rather in the automatic email. The automatic email strips the quotes off, thus making my post look weird.

I'll make things simple for you.

mtnman said to me "I will keep it all to myself." followed immediatly by "The fact that according to what i believe, God loves us all so much..."

So, in essense, he did not keep his beliefs all to himself, as he said he would. Not even for one sentence.

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 17:04
Hey alligator, you are the one who PUSHED the issue of SHAME, talk about reading comprehension, I know a great couselor......

ALLIGATOR: Isaid you used the implication of shame (Really? Where?)
Where was this? Please quotel me, all I did was ask. You still have no answer, hmmmmmm.

Alligator: Because religious extremesits are also elitists and feel the need to preach and convert. Believe what you want to believe, but please let me out of it.

Firstly, you are name calling someone you don't even know, I have never claimed either. ALSO, you are free to be let out of it any time, just shut your mouth, but I see that this is quite an IMPOSSIBILITY for you.

ALLIGATOR TELLS MMTN777: Your post should have stopped there. Instead, you went on to TELL me exactly what you believe. Does your hypocricy know no boundries?

hey Alligator, listen, just answer this simple question, since when and by whose rules can you NOT tell someone what you believe? Are you in charge here? Gee, that's funny, I never knew this was illegal, can you tell me what kind of stove you use?

Alligator: Those damn religious hikers, they are so unstoppably single-minded. I guess I shouldn't try to change their ways, and should accept that they are trying to change mine!? I guess you are saying that the religious hikers are not open-minded then?


Odd, I am not trying to change your ways, I don't even know them! Are you trying to change mine? Wow you are sly...and by the way, I haven't seen ANYONE trying to change YOURS - heck you don't even have ANY!




Alligator: I have not spoken anything about my religion... in fact I said that I would not discuss it. Rather, I take exception to you talking about yours

Caught in your own words, YOU TAKE EXCEPTION TO ME TALKING ABOUT MINE???? you intolerant fool.

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 17:08
Chomp: Thanks for the post reading suggestion, but I think I am doing it right, I'll have to check into that. There is no reason for any one on this site to be slammed like this for what they believe. This is INTOLERANCE at its finest.

Needles
05-20-2004, 17:22
If someone started a thread about gum wrappers or cigarette butts being left in and around shelters would it create this long of a thread? I kind of doubt it. So is this about LNT? Doesn't look like it to me.

When did we decide as a society that we all have the right to never see or here anything that we don't like or that we disagree with? I know I learn more from people I disagree with than those I share most of my beliefes and ideals with.

So, if you see me in a shelter and you are a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Shintoist, Zoroastrianist, republican, democrat, neo-nazi, or hippie please feel free to tell me what you believe and think. Be forewarned that I will also tell you what I believe, but at the end of our conversation I think we will both be better for it. As for this discussion, well I don't see that anyone has much to gain from it.

Needles

pharper
05-20-2004, 17:47
"I am intolerent of your intolerence"

pharper
05-20-2004, 18:09
I am not a religious person, as corny as it sounds I consider myself more "spiritual".

With that said:

I do not care what other people believe in, or practice... just as long as nothing is pushed on me. I don't push my views on people, which is why I'm not stating my detailed views here... but just enough to communicate where I am coming from in this argument/discussion. I don't really have a strong stance on leaving things in shelters... just as long as it is not "tacky" or something that can litter. This is fine and dandy in theory, but it is very subjective on what defines tacky. Some people might think that a bible left at a shelter is tacky. Others might think that is fine, but draw the line at paper flyers. This is one of the problems that we have to face, different people have different thoughts and feelings of what is acceptable and what they believe in.

Nothing against any of the people that have posted on this topic (I agree with several of the points made here), but there is nothing that you can just say (or argue) that will magically make somebody believe in something that cannot be proven (that goes for anything, religion or otherwise). This would require the person to whom you are speaking with to already have some beliefs of his/her own that can help guide them to choosing that path.

Again, not to offend anybody (which seems impossible in today's world), just my own $0.02

Hammock Hanger
05-20-2004, 18:11
:( HH .................................................. .................................................. :sun

Chappy
05-20-2004, 18:21
As a Christian the authority for my belief is the Bible. I carry one and will share it. I will not leave it in a shelter...in fact, as a Republican environmentalist I don't want to see shelters and privies in the woods! :D
Wonder if that Republican comment will change the tenor of this thread?

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 18:51
Ya know, it's a darn good thing that listening to these guys on here doesn't turn me off to hikers in general, but talking about God/Jesus sure turns them off, and causes them to lump us into "overzealous, extremists,etc."

The truth is each and every one of us here, regardless of what we believe is seen by someone else in society as "overzealous, extremist, out of our gourds," etc. Hiking for months or days on end goes against the very grain of society in general. I often hike around here on the wild high altitude mountains:-? of N FLorida, and people stop and ask if I want to eat because they think I'm homeless! They have no concept of someone carring a backpack that cost $$ - and I'm wearing completely clean new clothes!

This thread took on a really bad flavor. Trash is trash. This thread should be restarted about LNT NOT about whether the trash left is a Bible, newspaper, Shelter Register, whatever. If you want to complain about trash, do so, do you have to label or name it?

I've never been to a shelter or hotel room or anywhere that someone held up a gun and made me read something, and neither have any of you here

( unless of course something this bizarre actually DID happen to you.....)

I am no sooner going to stop discussing what I believe if it is dissed, no more than I would about some of my equipment because someone thought I was stupid or foolish for carrying a certain kind of giant cast iron pot ( which I do not BTW).

Just no need for people to FREAK OUT when someone says they Love God or Jesus or ANYONE for that matter. What's the big deal to you?

I am starting a new thread, can the religion haters out here keep their mouths shut and discuss the topic at hand?

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 18:54
:clap Chappy, Republicans are welcome, and environmentalist Republicans are even more interesting! I like you already, even though some of this thread was full of crap.


Whether I disagree or agree with politics, it is usually a comfort to know you can discuss your beliefs in public freely, as per the Constiution, which also allows us the freedom to hike whenever we darn well please........ somehow WB seems to be one of the worst places I have ever heard such blatent persecution of that inalienable right!:confused:

mntman777
05-20-2004, 19:00
"Your post should have stopped there. Instead, you went on to TELL me exactly what you believe. Does your hypocricy know no boundries?"


Well I thought i was being funny again. I guess this just goes to show us that we realy don't know who each of us realy is or the kind of person we are just by a few things we say on this forum. I am quite sure none of you know me. I would do just about anything i could to help out any of you if you were in need at any time. If any of you were to meet me on the trail, i promise you your impression of me would not be, religious freek, or zelot, or intolerant, maybe ugly, but thats debatable.

Chomp you seem like an angry little man. Or you could be a girl for all i know. :bse just kidding

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 19:02
All you LNT folks, come on over to the new thread where we can discuss minus the Jesus/God/Christian bashing. You all have so much to contribute and trash on the trail is a great issue to discuss....I think :-?

Needles wrote: If someone started a thread about gum wrappers or cigarette butts being left in and around shelters would it create this long of a thread? I kind of doubt it. So is this about LNT? Doesn't look like it to me.
Hey Needles, good point. I just did, let's go there and see how long it gets, let's see if the folks here want to bash beliefs or talk trash:clap

sloetoe
05-20-2004, 19:17
I'd like to know why all the best posts on this thread (and we know them when we read 'em, right?) all sound like this:
http://www.quaker.org/friends.html

walk your talk,
live your love,
sloetoe


(so, ah, Trix -- this one of them little bombs?)

steve hiker
05-20-2004, 19:21
First of all eyeahiker, you have your Latin wrong. Religion is derived from the Latin word "RELIGIO," meaning "to tie the gods together." Apparently, religions were formed by uptight, anal-retentive control-and-order types who felt uncomfortable with all these various spiritual beliefs people held, and felt a need to "tie them all together" into a rigid structure. Like the Roman Catholic Church a/k/a Roman Empire bootstrapped onto religion.

steve hiker
05-20-2004, 19:27
So, what do you believe? Why don't you want to broadcast it? Are you ashamed of this?
I don't give a foock what anyone "believes." Now if you want to tell me what you KNOW about something other than religion and I want to hear it, I might listen.

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 19:30
Go burn your brain some more pothead, crawl back under your rock, I believe you'll post again.
CAN I BELIEVE IN THAT, HUH ??/ HUH??? slobber slobber can I?

By the way, you are wrong, check your latin:

The root word in Latin, however, has nothing to do with organizations and systems; those are the structures which have developed from some religious experience and which often as not lose the true meaning of the word religion in becoming too concretized and rigid. The Latin word "religare," from which "religion" is derived, simply means "to bind back." Thus, the religious function in the truest sense of the word is that which binds us back to the original wholeness from which we came.As we develop an ego and become concerned about survival and our place in the material world, we tend to grow further out of touch with the archetypal realm that binds us back to the original wholeness. To use a religious metaphor, we are cast out of the Garden of Eden (original wholeness). Consciousness and free will separate us from that innocence and at the same time cut us off from part of ourselves. The religious function exists as a medium for binding our conscious selves back to that original wholeness.

AND another definition:
Religare is the latin word for "to reconnect, to bind together" which gave origin to the word religion. Attempts to define religion are manifold and various, but for the time being we will just say that religion is at the heart of an ancient human longing for meaning and oneness, inspiring both the civil and spiritual life. This is indeed an ambitious project, to explore human spiritual quest from the point of view of such different traditions as the path of the Goddess, the voice of Angels, the way of Yoga, the rigor of Zazen, the chants of the Sufi and so many others. We will try to "re-connect" to a wide diversity of traditions and explore the spiritual path by the approach of different disciplines: history, art, linguistics, anthropology, archaeology, theology, sociology, etc... but, more than anything, by the medium of our passions.

RELIGIO is an ITALIAN WORD. Lei parla l'italiano?

The Religio Romana is the pre-Christian religion of Rome. Sometimes called "Roman Paganism", modern practice the Religio Romana is an attempt to reconstruct the ancient faith of Rome as closely as possible, making as few concessions to modern sensibilities as possible.

steve hiker
05-20-2004, 19:37
Would you rather me leave a book in a shelter describing why I think that Jesus sucks a big one?
Not quite right, Chomp. He tokes a big one -- a big fat joint. And he DOES inhale.

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 19:38
Wow, you really are burnt, you don't know the difference between a doob and a genital area.....Ipoor you:cool:

shades of blue
05-20-2004, 20:08
As a Christian the authority for my belief is the Bible. I carry one and will share it. I will not leave it in a shelter...in fact, as a Republican environmentalist I don't want to see shelters and privies in the woods! :D
Wonder if that Republican comment will change the tenor of this thread?
Republican environmentalist....huh? Is that like the tooth fairy? :jump

Chappy
05-20-2004, 21:03
Republican environmentalist....huh? Is that like the tooth fairy? :jump
I just knew I'd get somebody. :sun

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 23:06
Heee heee, knew I'd get a laugh in here somewhere:banana

Alligator
05-20-2004, 23:18
Eyahiker,

Try as I might, I do not know what a couselor is.

I'll go slow here, because I covered this in #171. You wrote [direct quote]
"Alligator: So, what do you believe? Why don't you want to broadcast it? Are you ashamed of this?"

Your question conveys an expectation that I am ashamed in some fashion. As opposed to saying:
"Why don't you want to broadcast it? Are you proud of this?" Where the expectation is pride.

Or, "Why don't you want to broadcast it? Are you hungry?" Which would imply that I might be hungry.

Further, you have attributed a number of quotations to me in post #177 that are not mine but rather belong to Chomp.

Republican environmentalist oxymoron.

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 23:21
Alligator, you have no beliefs, and are lost. Feel free to PM me anytime and I will be happy to talk to you, I have no ill feelings towards you at all regardless of this heated thread.

Lone Wolf
05-20-2004, 23:25
God sucks. That's why there's no air in space. :cool:

eyahiker
05-20-2004, 23:28
----------------------------------------:)

steve hiker
05-21-2004, 02:33
The Latin word "religare," from which "religion" is derived, simply means "to bind back."

You know what the symbol of fascism is? A bundle of sticks bound tightly together. [Origin: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle.] Dictatorship. Totalitarianism.

Just like religions tightly bind and suffocate people's spirituality -- like fascist governments.

Don't want to convert to the Holy Roman Religion in the middle ages? Off to the dungeon or burned at the stake you go. Don't buy what preacher man says is the true word of God a/k/a Big-Daddy-O in the sky? You're GOING TO HELLLLLLLLLLLL forever.

Fear, coersion, crushing of the spirit. That's religion.


Enlightenment, mind expansion, dissolving of boundaries, getting connected to the Spirit within ... that's what the Toke ally does.

Blue Jay
05-21-2004, 07:52
Republican environmentalist....huh? Is that like the tooth fairy? :jump

Actually Rebublicans used to be environmentalists. The first national parks were created by Republicans. They used to believe in strict interpretation of the constitution. Now they want to gut it (Patriot ACT). They used to believe in fiscal responsibility. Now they start whole new Departments of state and spend more than liberals. They used to be against Big Government. Too bad they stopped. There are no more Republicans, I wish they'd come back. Maybe they are all in Korea, COME BACK.

Eyahiker, the main reason you are getting resistance is that most of us, even people who believe in the message of Christ are just flat out tired of Christianity being forced down our throats. It is clearly our State Religion, profit is everything.

shades of blue
05-21-2004, 07:56
God sucks. That's why there's no air in space. :cool:
L.Wolf sucks. That's because he's a republican environmentalist! :sun



(Just in case you're not sure....I'm just playing).

shades of blue
05-21-2004, 08:19
I can't believe I actually did this....I took you seriously and look at what I found.... http://moderaterepublican.blogspot.com/2002_08_11_moderaterepublican_archive.html

There's a link for Republicans for environmental protection.....geeze...you were right! How did this happen....my world is turned upside down! (you're being right....not the republican stuff....)
I'm actually not a big fan of the party system anyway. This seems a little more fun though than fussing about religion. ( the rest of this isn't aimed at Blue Jay....general post) People have different beliefs, in our society we have the freedom to choose our path in life. On the AT we are all headed in one of two directions...Springer or Katahdin, we may take different routes....mostly white blazes....sometimes a few blue blazes...Yellow blazes? It's the journey that matters. We all walk together, share the same pains, joys....ect. Am I a Christian....yes. Will I force it down your throat...no. That is not what I believe. Both "sides" in this group have attacked and retaliated against one another. Easy to do when you feel you are being attacked. My advice....let it go. :rolleyes:

eyahiker
05-21-2004, 08:46
----------------------------------------:)

Chappy
05-21-2004, 08:59
Republican environmentalist oxymoron.

Are you calling me a moron? :D

Chappy
05-21-2004, 09:06
There are no more Republicans, I wish they'd come back. Maybe they are all in Korea, COME BACK.

This one is coming back in June. Yippee.....

Chappy
05-21-2004, 09:10
I can't believe I actually did this....I took you seriously and look at what I found.... http://moderaterepublican.blogspot.com/2002_08_11_moderaterepublican_archive.htmlThere's a link for Republicans for environmental protection.....geeze...you were right!

Told you I was one! :)

The Old Fhart
05-21-2004, 09:14
Just to clear up a couple of pointsÖÖÖÖÖÖ

Desert Lobster, post #167-Old Fhart, You sort of resemble Moses! I always wondered why you didn't get wet crossing streams.
(from the thread, Trail Days 2004 Appears early on to be a BUST!) Desert Lobster, post #57--Old Fhart, you must be almost 100 by now!
Just to set things straight, you are getting Methuselah and Moses mixed up. My friend Nimblewill Nomad is the one who actually looks like Moses. As to keeping dry at stream crossings, itís Gore-tex lined boots and stepping on rocks. Just science, not luck or divine intervention. :sun

mntman777--Chomp, for you to assume that you can disprove the foundations of my beliefs is pretty much the most intolerant direspectful and stupid thing i have ever heard.
Out of fairness to Chomp, who I know and respect, that is FAR from the stupidest thing I have ever heard him say. :) Actually, mntman777, what you said, under the guise of religious superiority, was more intolerant. Letís stick to the issue of the thread, you can get a point across much better without a ďholier than thouĒ attitude and belittling other posters.

I think overall Alligator has done a good job trying to keep the thread on subject. I find the attitude of some who claim to be tolerant to be amusing and disturbing when they say you have to believe their way or youíre going to hell. While it is fine that they think it, it goes too far when they start saying that to individuals who have posted here. Religion is a topic that will never be settled here and trying to convince others that you have an inside track to salvation and they are wrong serves no useful purpose. Lead by example and be tolerant of others, leave it at that.
As to leaving materials in shelters, I go with the maintainers, if it doesnít belong in the shelters, it has to be removed by them, no matter what it is. Donít make their job harder than it is. Carry your own supplies be it food, maps, or reading materials.

Chappy
05-21-2004, 09:20
L.Wolf sucks. That's because he's a republican environmentalist! :sun



(Just in case you're not sure....I'm just playing).

What say you, Lone Wolf? Is this true? ;)

eyahiker
05-21-2004, 09:41
----------------------------------------:)

Lone Wolf
05-21-2004, 09:42
EVERYTHING one reads in these forums is TRUTH.

eyahiker
05-21-2004, 09:45
----------------------------------------:)

chomp
05-21-2004, 09:48
EVERYTHING one reads in these forums is TRUTH.
A man comes to a fork in the road. There are two men sitting there. One always tells the truth, and one always lies...

eyahiker
05-21-2004, 09:49
And one always tries to get some grub out of you if at all possible.......:p

Lone Wolf
05-21-2004, 09:50
$2.03 for premium. It's what my Harley drinks. Going for a ride now.

eyahiker
05-21-2004, 10:01
Ouch! Have a great ride, nice day for it there.........

eyahiker
05-21-2004, 10:15
----------------------------------------:)

chomp
05-21-2004, 10:21
He'll prove me right as soon as he posts!
Wow, good thing that you don't like to act all superior or anything.

eyahiker
05-21-2004, 10:22
----------------------------------------:)

eyahiker
05-21-2004, 10:23
----------------------------------------:)

Blue Jay
05-21-2004, 10:43
BTW what is going on up in NH? Weatherwise, I don't always believe what I see on weather posts.......no FAITH in them
heee heee

Wow, Alligator may not be biting........NAH. He'll be here. Even if he has been working on the new post for over 23 minutes now..........

I think he's found out, never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and annoy the pig.

eyahiker
05-21-2004, 10:44
----------------------------------------:)

chomp
05-21-2004, 11:43
he's been viewing the thread for quite a while now, and is very predictable!

1) Guess you were wrong
2) Obsess much?

Alligator
05-21-2004, 12:20
.......................

Blue Jay
05-21-2004, 13:54
Hey Alligator, I'm on your side. I used the "Never try to teach a pig to sing" saying to try and tell you it is hopeless arguing with a Christian. They are sooo filled with dogma, teaching a pig to sing would be light years easier.

The Old Fhart
05-21-2004, 14:09
Blue Jay-Hey Alligator, I'm on your side. I used the "Never try to teach a pig to sing" saying to try and tell you it is hopeless arguing with a Christian. They are sooo filled with dogma, teaching a pig to sing would be light years easier.
You may want to make note of this because it doesn't happen often, but I understood the analogy and agree with Blue Jay on this one. :) I might have used the word "zealot" instead of "Christian" because some of the comments that I've read aren't keeping with the doctrines of the Christian faith.

Blue Jay
05-21-2004, 14:44
You may want to make note of this because it doesn't happen often, but I understood the analogy and agree with Blue Jay on this one. :) I might have used the word "zealot" instead of "Christian" because some of the comments that I've read aren't keeping with the doctrines of the Christian faith.

I stand corrected.

weary
05-21-2004, 14:53
Ya know, it's a darn good thing that listening to these guys on here doesn't turn me off to hikers in general, but talking about God/Jesus sure turns them off, and causes them to lump us into "overzealous, extremists,etc."


No. Just dumb.

Weary

Chappy
05-21-2004, 17:20
No. Just dumb.

Weary

Weary, so...someone who talks about God/Jesus is dumb? Seemed like the heat had left this thread and then you chime in with a less than eloquent comment. Very unlike you.

Skeemer
05-22-2004, 08:45
It seems the spokespersons for Christianity are not doing so well lately...evangelists who have openly sinned and been found out...priests molesting little boys...doesn't help its credibility.

I just don't think the Trail is the place to impose one's religous values onto others? I guess they can't leave it alone between the individual and one's God. What's wrong with leaving it off the Trail and let hikers find their religion in town at their own chosing? That way it doesn't piss off the "leave no tracers."

eyahiker
05-22-2004, 09:21
SKEEMER WRITES: It seems the spokespersons for Christianity are not doing so well lately...evangelists who have openly sinned and been found out...priests molesting little boys...doesn't help its credibility
Spokespersons for ANYTHING aren't doing so well lately.
We could isolate just about every issue and debate both sides.....
Credibility is a joke.

Thankfully some of us on here don't necessarily watch a ton of TV, have fear and lies instilled to our brains, believe everything we read in magazines, and actually get away from our computers and HIKE.
The relationships formed 'out there' somewhere on any trail are probably the bestl litmus for credibility. Many of those who have TH'd several times can attest to this....

Desert Lobster
05-22-2004, 10:39
Religion was banned on the trail in 97.

Chappy
05-22-2004, 17:51
Religion was banned on the trail in 97.

DL, Haven't read about that. Since I try to live out my faith in God I do not want to break any laws. Can you please refer me to your source?

Desert Lobster
05-22-2004, 21:14
I read it somewhere on the internet. There is a lot of helpful info on here.

Needles
05-22-2004, 22:48
It seems the spokespersons for Christianity are not doing so well lately...evangelists who have openly sinned and been found out...priests molesting little boys...doesn't help its credibility.

It is rare that you find someone who thinks that Osama bin Laden speaks for all, or even a majority, of the Islamic world. So why is it that so many think people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson speak for every Christian? Why do people think that all Catholic Priests are child molestors when a very, very small percentage of priests committed these astoundingly evil acts? In any group there are a "few bad apples" and typically there are some great people as well. Just like I think that Republicans share more in common with John McCain than George W Bush and Dick Cheeny, at least I hope they do.

Chappy
05-23-2004, 01:13
I read it somewhere on the internet. There is a lot of helpful info on here.

I read the internet yesterday, but didn't find a reference to your statement. :sun

Skeemer
05-23-2004, 08:57
Needles writes:

So why is it that so many think people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson speak for every Christian? Why do people think that all Catholic Priests are child molestors when a very, very small percentage of priests committed these astoundingly evil acts?

That's kinda my point...leave it up to each hiker to "hike his own hike" in regards to religion on the Trail and leave the materials out of the shelters. How would good Christians feel about finding materials promoting other religions or even atheism? All "religious materials" (I almost said propaganda) have no place on the Trail.

eyahiker
05-23-2004, 09:00
Needles writes:


That's kinda my point... leave the materials out of the shelters. How would good Christians feel about finding materials promoting other religions or even atheism? All "religious materials" (I almost said propaganda) have no place on the Trail.Firstly, that's fine with me, take ALL materials out of the shelters, including the registers.
Secondly, there are LOTS Of religious materials in shelters, it is not exclusive to only one. There are lots of people on here that promote other religions as well, including Atheism, I'm not offended by them telling their beliefs.

Its those who have no real belief that get angry because others do that cause the most problems here.

Trash is trash, and if you really want to talk about the LNT thing, go to the other thread and talk there, this has turned into a religious thread.;)

Desert Lobster
05-23-2004, 11:37
Taking registers out serves what purpose? They are half the reason folks even stop at shelters. Someone will take them home or return them to the owner once they fill up or in the worst case they can be burned in the firepit. So what's the problem? Is it that some folks post religious comments in their register entries. If so, just don't read those posts.

eyahiker
05-23-2004, 14:02
Skeemer wrote:That's kinda my point... leave the materials out of the shelters.This is what Skeemer said not me. If you are classifying ANY reading materials as trash, then in fact the registers are trash as well, and are game for starting fires or wiping your behind with on the same level as religious materials ( as some others have suggested one do with religious materials)

I personally don't have a gripe about the registers per se, I just take offense that one particular 'message' is garbage and anothers worthwhile to keep around. The gist is that throughout the thread any messages dealing with God or Jesus are the real culprits, and others arent. I disagree, it's all either trash or not.

So in conclusion, LNT would be, as has been stated LNT of ANYONE OR ANYTHING, no TRACE that anyone has been there. I personally think the registers are terrific.........

Kozmic Zian
05-23-2004, 15:12
Yea......................Annnnh.....naaa....uuuggg hhh....naaa. Nooottt ggona say it. KZ@

Tater
05-23-2004, 16:23
I personally don't have a gripe about the registers per se, I just take offense that one particular 'message' is garbage and anothers worthwhile to keep around.
I like the registers, period. Not all messages are interesting, but most are. These are real people who have been here days or months ago, like the trail itself is speaking to you. They ran into thunderstorms, bears, snow, this person or that. It really doesn't matter if I "agree" with what someone writes.

Dances with Mice
05-23-2004, 16:33
Bottom Line: It doesn't matter what anybody thinks about religious materials left at shelters EXCEPT the volunteers who maintain the shelters. Period.

I haven't seen anyone leave a religious book that costs more than fifty cents anyway. Some maintainers may choose to leave those cheap orange covered New Testaments that people get by the case from the Gideons. But the overwhelming majority of maintainers chuck'em. I do. A couple every season.

So don't leave'em. Because I gotta carry the gawd-damned things out.

The shelter register is considered part of the shelter. You may not consider it part of the shelter, but if you're not the one doing the maintenance then your opinion really doesn't matter. If you want a hard, fast rule then DON'T LEAVE ANY PRE-PRINTED READING MATERIALS IN SHELTERS.

Tater
05-23-2004, 16:36
Dances With Mice --

Just how bad are those mice in Georgia shelters? That why you dance? :banana

Skeemer
05-23-2004, 16:50
One of the questions posed at the start of this thread asked how we felt about religious materials in the shelters. I was responding to this. I don't see it as an "all or nothing" issue. I too find the registers as an integral part of the hike experience...fun to read, great for joking around and finding out where your friends are on the Trail.

BTW, I don't see it as a LNT issue...I see the registers as part of the shelters...not something packed in and dropped off. Hope this clears that up. I just commented that disallowing religious materials would make the LNT'ers happy.

HYOH and enjoy it.

weary
05-23-2004, 17:33
....I personally don't have a gripe about the registers per se, I just take offense that one particular 'message' is garbage and anothers worthwhile to keep around. The gist is that throughout the thread any messages dealing with God or Jesus are the real culprits, and others arent. I disagree, it's all either trash or not.
.........

You haven't been listening (as usual). In Maine at least the registers are placed by MATC and are owned by MATC. They are as much a part of the shelter scene as the LNT or "Carry in, Carry out" signs.

The simple fact is that most stuff left at shelters, for whatever reason, ends up being carried out by some maintainer.

The rule for hikers, in Maine at least, is that stuff carried in by hikers should be carried out by the same person. Those, for either laziness, religious, or other reasons, refuse to do so, just increase the burden for an innocent maintainer, without which the trail would be incredibly diminished, something which all Gods I've ever heard speculated about, would probably frown on.

Weary

Dances with Mice
05-23-2004, 18:07
Dances With Mice --

Just how bad are those mice in Georgia shelters? That why you dance? :banana

Mouse populations in the shelters in Georgia, and every other state, are cyclic. Sometimes they won't even wait until nightfall to start scavenging and they'll keep you up all night. A few weeks later at the same shelter there will be no mice. Then the next month the shelter is brimming with the cute little vermin again.

The trail name came from an incident long ago one winter night at Whitley Gap when a mouse crept into my sleeping bag then we both tried to get out ASAP. There was a movie with a similar name playing in theaters at the time.

Chappy
05-23-2004, 18:12
The simple fact is that most stuff left at shelters, for whatever reason, ends up being carried out by some maintainer.

The rule for hikers, in Maine at least, is that stuff carried in by hikers should be carried out by the same person. Those, for either laziness, religious, or other reasons, refuse to do so, just increase the burden for an innocent maintainer, without which the trail would be incredibly diminished, something which all Gods I've ever heard speculated about, would probably frown on.

Weary

I agree...you take it in, you oughta take it out! Don't think too much of those shelter journals though. Have to admit I haven't read many, but the few I did seemed to be saying the same thing..."rained all day, feet are tired, more ramen tonight, etc." However, there are probably some creative writers out there.

Will always have my Bible with me and willing to share if you ask! :)

steve hiker
05-23-2004, 18:16
Will always have my Bible with me and willing to share if you ask! :)
Thanks. I always seem to run low on toilet paper after my third or fourth day between resupply.