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Pedaling Fool
10-23-2007, 17:41
This is a two-part question. Anyone know when the AT was routed over Fontana Dam and where was the it relocated from?

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 17:42
It was relocated from Topoco. It was sometime in the 40s I think.

hacksaw
10-23-2007, 17:56
The dam was completed in '44. I believe the relo was either late '40s or early '50s. Not sure exactly.

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 18:01
The old AT leaves from near Cable Gap shelter on the Yellow Creek Trail and goes to Tapoco, NC. Then it crossed the bridge (now the BMT) and followed the track of what is now the BMT into GSMNP. Then it went up to Gregory bald and joined what is now the AT.

Hikerhead
10-23-2007, 19:17
The old AT leaves from near Cable Gap shelter on the Yellow Creek Trail and goes to Tapoco, NC. Then it crossed the bridge (now the BMT) and followed the track of what is now the BMT into GSMNP. Then it went up to Gregory bald and joined what is now the AT.

I think it would interesting to find the old AT trail from Deals Gap that goes into the Smokies. My understanding is that it went straight across 129 where the BMT now comes out. If so, looks like you could tie into the BMT by going up the mtn and then following the creek down to CS 95.
That would eliminate the road walking to 20 mile.

Seems all to easy to me but I'm sure it's not.

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 19:25
That would be a good thing. Except since you have to check in at a ranger station for reservations and what-not, hiking past 20 mile does make some sense. Now if they could just adopt the same thru-hiker rules for the BMT that they do for the AT we would be really set.

Hikerhead
10-23-2007, 19:38
That would be a good thing. Except since you have to check in at a ranger station for reservations and what-not, hiking past 20 mile does make some sense. Now if they could just adopt the same thru-hiker rules for the BMT that they do for the AT we would be really set.

I see your point but there's access at other places that don't have a ranger station to sign in like at the Road to Nowhere/Noland Creek trail.

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 19:40
True - but if you are thru-hiking in on the BMT it is a little different than sectioning. Of course if they did do the BMT thru-hiker thing they could also run it like they do the AT.

Hikerhead
10-23-2007, 19:47
True - but if you are thru-hiking in on the BMT it is a little different than sectioning. Of course if they did do the BMT thru-hiker thing they could also run it like they do the AT.


Yeah, just have a little sign in box with your campsite agenda form. Fill it out, leave two copies in the box and keep one with you.

I'll let you be in charge of getting that done. Before you leave on your big hike. :)

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 19:48
Well I may do that after I get back. I plan to try to be an advocate for the BMT locally.

Hikerhead
10-23-2007, 19:57
Well I may do that after I get back. I plan to try to be an advocate for the BMT locally.


You're the man for the job. I feel like I hijacked this thread. Sorry.

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 20:00
Naw, we answered his question in about 3 posts - except the part about the year.

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 20:28
I just pulled out my copy of "Walking With Spring" by Earl Shaffer.

"Marking was extremely poor. When we came to a trail junction overlooking the village of Fontana Dam we didn't know which wa to go, so we decided to ask in town. No one seemed to know, but our maps, such as they were, indicated a continuation on Yellow Creek Mountain to Tapoco. Actually the trail was being changed to cross Fontanna Sam but the markings had not been changed. So we continued on Yellow Creek Mountain."

So it looks like the trail was changed in 1948.

As to where it went on the old trail...

Looks like it was Deals Gap to Parson's Bald to Sheep Pen Gap, and then to Gregory Bald. That means somewhre between Deals Gap and Wolf Ridge trail there is an old AT.

Hikerhead
10-23-2007, 20:50
I just pulled out my copy of "Walking With Spring" by Earl Shaffer.

"Marking was extremely poor. When we came to a trail junction overlooking the village of Fontana Dam we didn't know which wa to go, so we decided to ask in town. No one seemed to know, but our maps, such as they were, indicated a continuation on Yellow Creek Mountain to Tapoco. Actually the trail was being changed to cross Fontanna Sam but the markings had not been changed. So we continued on Yellow Creek Mountain."

So it looks like the trail was changed in 1948.

As to where it went on the old trail...

Looks like it was Deals Gap to Parson's Bald to Sheep Pen Gap, and then to Gregory Bald. That means somewhre between Deals Gap and Wolf Ridge trail there is an old AT.

So the trail at that time went through the NOC and then towards Fontana sort of like it does now but b'4 Fontana took what is called the Upper Chasteen trail to Tapoco, crossed the bridge at the dam, went back into the woods to Deals Gap, crossed 129 into the Smokies. I would like to know if the old trail is visiable/hikeable in the Smokies. Sounds like an exploratory hike is in order.

EAnderson
10-23-2007, 20:59
I think it would interesting to find the old AT trail from Deals Gap that goes into the Smokies. My understanding is that it went straight across 129 where the BMT now comes out. If so, looks like you could tie into the BMT by going up the mtn and then following the creek down to CS 95.
That would eliminate the road walking to 20 mile.

Seems all to easy to me but I'm sure it's not.

I was told by a hiker who is active with the BMT that the BMT had asked the NPS about rerouting up the old AT route from Deels to Gregory's Bald. He said that the answer was no for now, but the answer seemed to leave open the possibility for the future.

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 21:06
Maybe we can get them on the liability thing LOL. Seems everyone is scared of that - just imagine a hiker hit by a motorcycle because he had to walk down 28 instead of walking in the woods.

chiefdaddy
10-23-2007, 21:07
I have hiked some man way trails in the smokies and some old AT routes in Ga, this sounds like a GREAT trip! I have to focus on my thru march 1st:) but sheesh this sounds like I need a few days up north.

Hikerhead
10-23-2007, 21:19
Hatman told me this story. He saw it on the news or someone told him but he's a straight up guy so I know it to be true...OK, someone went out riding their rice burner on the Dragon. This was in the summer. They never did come home. Months go by and now it's winter. Someone stops on the side of the road and spots something really white up in a now leafless tree. It was the dude's skeleton. His bike was down below him. No, that's the last road that I would want to walk on.

Hikerhead
10-23-2007, 21:35
This is where the BMT comes out to 129. The old AT I bet goes up that road. Back in the day that was probably just an old dirt rd to nowhere. I think that's a gated community now, I could be wrong on that.

BTW, that's Hatman and Happy Feet. Check out that license plate.

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 22:04
There are a lot of old trail roads on the other side of 129 from that trail head. I imagine there is something up there.

Groucho
10-23-2007, 22:11
I think it would interesting to find the old AT trail from Deals Gap that goes into the Smokies. My understanding is that it went straight across 129 where the BMT now comes out. If so, looks like you could tie into the BMT by going up the mtn and then following the creek down to CS 95.
That would eliminate the road walking to 20 mile.

Seems all to easy to me but I'm sure it's not.

You can follow the old AT on Topozone (labelled as the Alternate Appalachian National Scenic Trail; follow west) beginning here: http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.42394&lon=-83.80978&datum=nad27&u=4&layer=DRG25&size=l&s=25 After Deals Gap the AT generally follows the NC-TN state line.

A friend wanted to hike this trail as a loop with the AT in the 70's but heard of some poaching activity near Deals Gap. Someone inquired about this several years ago, but never reported about status; I assume that it is closed to hiking.?



I just pulled out my copy of "Walking With Spring" by Earl Shaffer.

"Marking was extremely poor. When we came to a trail junction overlooking the village of Fontana Dam we didn't know which wa to go, so we decided to ask in town. No one seemed to know, but our maps, such as they were, indicated a continuation on Yellow Creek Mountain to Tapoco. Actually the trail was being changed to cross Fontanna Sam but the markings had not been changed. So we continued on Yellow Creek Mountain."

So it looks like the trail was changed in 1948.

As to where it went on the old trail...

Looks like it was Deals Gap to Parson's Bald to Sheep Pen Gap, and then to Gregory Bald. That means somewhre between Deals Gap and Wolf Ridge trail there is an old AT.

Yes, according to the info in Hiking the Appalachian Trail, under History of the AT, the change was made in 1947-48

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 22:22
Looking at Topozone I can see the old AT...

Here you can see it at Deals Gap, it is under the state line:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.47301&lon=-83.91223&s=25&size=l&symshow=n&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG25

Then it goes up here:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.4833&lon=-83.9126&s=25&size=l&symshow=n&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG25

To this quad:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.48371&lon=-83.89582&s=25&size=l&symshow=n&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG25

Through Dalton Gap

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.494&lon=-83.89619&s=25&size=l&symshow=n&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG25

Peeking out from under the state line:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.50428&lon=-83.89656&s=25&size=l&symshow=n&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG25

Over Parsons Bald

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.51498&lon=-83.88015&s=25&size=l&symshow=n&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG25

Then to Sheep Pen Gap and Gergory Bald like Earl said it did

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.51538&lon=-83.86336&s=25&size=l&symshow=n&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG25

I would imagine you could plot this as a hike and get a backcountry permit from the Park Service.

Pedaling Fool
10-23-2007, 22:33
I've been thinking about thru-hiking the BMT, and all this talk about it has increased my interest. I remember seeing the White Triangles during my 06 and 07 hike, but I don't recall seeing them at, what I just learned, the start/stop points @ Springer & Davenport Gap.

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 22:37
Get the BMT fever.

Hikerhead
10-23-2007, 22:43
Thanks Groucho. I did a little more searching and there appears to be an old trail from Campsite 95 up the creek to Dalton Gap and connects to the old AT there. That's something to think about.

The red dot appears to be campsite 95.

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.49012&lon=-83.88021&s=25&size=l&u=4&datum=nad27&layer=DRG25

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 22:46
I was thiking the same thing. Looks like you could get a route from Deals Gap up to Dalton Gap up the old AT, then over on that other trail into 95 - then a short hop on Wolf Ridge Trail to the 20 mile loop back to where the BMT is now.

I wonder if the Brown Book talks about that area at all?

Hikerhead
10-23-2007, 22:47
Make the plans Rock. That would really be a fun hike. I'm in.

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 22:51
I'll see if I can get the maps together and get a permission slip from the government. The only thing I am not sure is the WHEN.

Hikerhead
10-23-2007, 22:54
I have a lot of vacation time to use up so just about any time is alright with me. I wish I could retire, work sux.

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 22:56
Sometime in November is the earliest. December sucks for me, and January I start walking until about July/August.

Tipi Walter
10-23-2007, 23:04
I have a bit of knowledge about the old AT as it runs from above Fontana south at Walker Gap along the Yellow Creek Mountain Trail(old AT)and comes out on Meadow Branch road right near Hiway 129 and the old Tapoco Lodge. I've backpacked it several times as a way to get me from the Slickrock wilderness to the AT without taking the back road route(Farley Branch/Meadow Branch/Lookout Rock Trail).

At the YCMT trailhead on Meadows Branch road there is/was an old Boy Scout sign and the start of a hellish blowdown infested bloodletting. The trail had old sign of the AT with ancient locust steps and switchbacks, and the section at the start as it climbs up to rocks overlooking the river below is almost worth the trip. This is about a 9 mile section of trail and it passes under power lines, thru hellish briars(the bloodletting part) and along recent logging road cuts.

Near the junction with Walker Gap and the AT the YCMT passes Lookout Rock with a neat view of Fontana below. The whole 9 mile trail is a reminder of the AT as it climbs every hill and follows the ridgeline religiously.

As far as Deals Gap goes, the land right across the hiway is now private development and not the Smokies anymore, so using it to cross over into just might not work like in the old days. Some cretins decided to sell off this land where the old AT use to enter the Park and climb to Gregory bald and have posted yellow Keep Out signs that say in part, "This area is under surveillance" or some such spit. Logically, the B Mac sould cross here and enter the Park and not as currently set up follow the noisy motorcycle road down to 28 and further to Twenty Mile station.

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 23:11
I think I know the place you are talking about Walter. Next time I am over that way I'll take a look at the land. Maybe I'll go in uniform and play the "official government business" card LOL.

Hikerhead
10-23-2007, 23:13
I have a bit of knowledge about the old AT as it runs from above Fontana south at Walker Gap along the Yellow Creek Mountain Trail(old AT)and comes out on Meadow Branch road right near Hiway 129 and the old Tapoco Lodge. I've backpacked it several times as a way to get me from the Slickrock wilderness to the AT without taking the back road route(Farley Branch/Meadow Branch/Lookout Rock Trail).

At the YCMT trailhead on Meadows Branch road there is/was an old Boy Scout sign and the start of a hellish blowdown infested bloodletting. The trail had old sign of the AT with ancient locust steps and switchbacks, and the section at the start as it climbs up to rocks overlooking the river below is almost worth the trip. This is about a 9 mile section of trail and it passes under power lines, thru hellish briars(the bloodletting part) and along recent logging road cuts.

Near the junction with Walker Gap and the AT the YCMT passes Lookout Rock with a neat view of Fontana below. The whole 9 mile trail is a reminder of the AT as it climbs every hill and follows the ridgeline religiously.

As far as Deals Gap goes, the land right across the hiway is now private development and not the Smokies anymore, so using it to cross over into just might not work like in the old days. Some cretins decided to sell off this land where the old AT use to enter the Park and climb to Gregory bald and have posted yellow Keep Out signs that say in part, "This area is under surveillance" or some such spit. Logically, the B Mac sould cross here and enter the Park and not as currently set up follow the noisy motorcycle road down to 28 and further to Twenty Mile station.

That sounds like another good hike to add to the list.

Hikerhead
10-23-2007, 23:18
Sometime in November is the earliest. December sucks for me, and January I start walking until about July/August.

End of November would work best for me but you set the date. You want to allow as much time as possible for the scars to heal before your picture on Springer.

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 23:21
You know what they say:

Bleeding stops, bones heal, and chicks dig scars.

Hikerhead
10-23-2007, 23:34
I bet Dixie doesn't believe in that last part. More like " and if any of those boys comes back with a scratch, mister, you're in for it" :)

SGT Rock
10-23-2007, 23:38
End of November would work best for me but you set the date. You want to allow as much time as possible for the scars to heal before your picture on Springer.
End of November is Thanksgiving - going out of town. I was thinking around the 17, 18 weekend. What I would like to do is go in to campsite 95 and base there - 2.5 miles in from 20 mile ranger station. Then check the trail that goes from 95 to Dalton Gap (looks like about 1.1 miles) - the brown book says that used to be a road for public access from Parsons Turnpike (probably Parson's Branch road now) to 20 mile. From there explore the old AT route up to Parson's Bald (looks like about 3 miles) then loop back down to 95 again on Wolf Ridge Trail (about 3.6 miles) For day one. That would be about 10 miles or so for that day.

On day two go back up the old road to the old AT, and explore down it to Deals Gap - where we have a car waiting at The Tail of the Dragon for some Dragon Burgers. It would be about 6 miles of walking.

Hikerhead
10-24-2007, 00:04
Looks good to me. I smelt those Dragon Burgers a few months ago but didn't get one then, I will this time.

nitewalker
10-24-2007, 09:06
Maybe we can get them on the liability thing LOL. Seems everyone is scared of that - just imagine a hiker hit by a motorcycle because he had to walk down 28 instead of walking in the woods.


im not sure what you mean by running the bmt like the AT? and is 28 on the bmt and how long a walk is it? curious because i am looking into a hike on the bmt.......

SGT Rock
10-24-2007, 09:21
The road walk on the Dragon to HWY 28 is about 3 miles give or take. If you have never been on the Dragon - it is an experience. There is something like 330+ curves in 11 miles, so ever crotch rocket racer and sports car enthusist that wants to test themselves comes out here to drive it. Going up the dragon in the summer is an experience. At least one time a year one of em dies, and about once a week there is a wreck.

This road doesn't exactly have great shoulders all the way or good visibility all the way because of the curves. Go figure.

On the other part - an AT thru-hiker can self register for his permit and only has to put an idea of where he plans to stay every night despite the fact that everyone else on the AT has to have reservations.

Now the BMT is not seen like that yet. If you go on a thru-hike of the BMT, when you get to the Smokies you will have to get a permit and put the itenerary you are going to use (no wiggle room) and some places you must have a reservation to use (no exemption for thru-hikers). To get a permit you need to either go to a ranger station and call the reservations number (the local ranger stations cannot do this for you) or you need to call them ahead of time and have that all figured out.

I hope someday the park can have a general thru-hiker policy instead of just an AT Thru-hiker policy. There is now more than one long distance trail that comes through the park.

Krewzer
10-24-2007, 10:04
Looks good to me. I smelt those Dragon Burgers a few months ago but didn't get one then, I will this time.

Ummmmm....Dragon burgers are great. The head cook told me they use only locally raised, number 1, grade "A", free range dragon. Didn't take the "free" dragon egg incubator and hatchling tour, but was tempted.