where is the ferry?

[corso k-9]

is there a part of the trail that can't be walked? no, right? so where does the ferry go?

[woodsy]

From the banks of Carrying Place Township on the Kennebec River to the banks of Carratunk, Maine

so where does the ferry go?

[Lone Wolf]

is there a part of the trail that can't be walked? no, right? so where does the ferry go?

you can ford the river early in the morning

[weary]

you can ford the river early in the morning
Well, strong hikers can ford it most early mornings. That's because air conditioners tend not to be turned on until mid morning or later. But the dam opens whenever the New England utility regulators need the energy, which can be anytime day or night. It's all automatic. Hikers don't figure into the equation. And get no warning.

Weary

[warren doyle]

Under the right conditions, the Kennebec River can be forded safely.
Hundreds of hikers have done so.

[dessertrat]

However, if those flood gates are opened just after you start fording, you will be extremely lucky not to get drowned, or at the very least, lose your pack and have to swim to the bank.

And if you care about such things (I maintain that you shouldn't) I am told that fording rather than taking the ferry disqualifies you as a thru-hiker in the eyes of the ATC.

[Jack Tarlin]

Corso:

Despite what others have told you, fording the Kennebec River is an inherently dangerous thing to do. Steve Longley, who ran the ferry service there for almost two decades, and who knows this piece of water better than anyone alive, has repeatedly made his opinion on this matter very clear: Anyone who tells you that it is safe to ford the Kennebec is mistaken, and is giving out advice that may someday get someone killed.

Take the ferry.

[Appalachian Tater]

disqualifies you as a thru-hiker in the eyes of the ATC.


Probably they're not as picky about passing out 2,000-miler certificates as you might imagine.

[dessertrat]

Probably they're not as picky about passing out 2,000-miler certificates as you might imagine.

I'm just passing on what I've heard. I doubt they conduct a thorough audit-- in fact, I'm sure it would be fairly easy to be a fake thru-hiker entirely, but to what purpose?

[max patch]

Under the right conditions, the Kennebec River can be forded safely.
Hundreds of hikers have done so.

Thats exactly what Alice Ference thought.

[Jack Tarlin]

Maybe it was Warren who encouraged her to ford. :eek:

Ooh, that was harsh.

But SOMEONE sure in hell did, and it helped to get her killed.

Just as present day downplaying of the Kennebec risk will someday help get someone else killed.

But at least when it happens again, we WILL know who we can blame.

[warren doyle]

I wasn't there when AF tried to ford and I don't know know the whole story about why and how she drowned. I do know that hundreds of hikers have forded the Kennebec when conditions were safe to do so while taking the necessary precautions of using proper footwear, a sturdy hiking staff/pole, undoing your waist belt, and loosening your shoulder straps.

People encourage others to do the AT knowing that there have been murders/sexual assaults of/on thru-hikers.

Now how about that intoxicated thru-hiker that got killed by a train during the Billville Hiker Feed weekend in Duncannon a while back?

[Jack Tarlin]

How about him?

He died after drinking legal beverages that weren't served to him by anyone from Billville. Nor did anyone encourage him to drink that weekend, nor did anyone "educate" him in how he could do so wisely.

You're being an ass here, Warren. I know you can't help it, but your desperation to score debating points by invoking the memory of this poor soul is absolutely pitiful. Cut it out.

[Appalachian Tater]

I must agree with Mr. Tarlin on this topic 100% and condemn Mr. Doyle for being irresponsible.

Mr. Doyle cannot fully know what the conditions in the river are at any particular time even if he is standing on the banks. He cannot say with certainty what the are, nor whether they are "safe", whatever it is he means by that.

Responsible, knowledgeable people at the ATC have provided a safe means of crossing at no expense to the hiker.

[woodsy]

Responsible, knowledgeable people at the ATC have provided a safe means of crossing at no expense to the hiker.
And this is true.
No one yet has mentioned the monster Snappin Turtles, 4' long Lake eels, flesh eating Crawdads etc... If the surging river don't get ya, the wildlife
might :eek: Take the canoe, 99% do

[Lone Wolf]

However, if those flood gates are opened just after you start fording, you will be extremely lucky not to get drowned, or at the very least, lose your pack and have to swim to the bank.

how do you know this?

[Lone Wolf]

Corso:

Despite what others have told you, fording the Kennebec River is an inherently dangerous thing to do. Steve Longley, who ran the ferry service there for almost two decades, and who knows this piece of water better than anyone alive, has repeatedly made his opinion on this matter very clear: Anyone who tells you that it is safe to ford the Kennebec is mistaken, and is giving out advice that may someday get someone killed.

Take the ferry.

how many times have you forded jack? how many times has steve forded?

[Lone Wolf]

Thats exactly what Alice Ference thought.

what time of day did she attempt it? i know. do you?

[TJ aka Teej]

Corso:

Despite what others have told you, fording the Kennebec River is an inherently dangerous thing to do. Steve Longley, who ran the ferry service there for almost two decades, and who knows this piece of water better than anyone alive, has repeatedly made his opinion on this matter very clear: Anyone who tells you that it is safe to ford the Kennebec is mistaken, and is giving out advice that may someday get someone killed.

Take the ferry.
Good post, Jack. Until Steve the Ferryman himself joins this thread, I doubt anyone responding to this thread will have had more experience at the Ferry Crossing of the Kennebec over the last three + decades than I have. Based on my experience: The 'go early morning' and other fording advice you might hear here is seriously and dangerously out of touch, directly lifted from 1980's guidebooks that were outdated even way back then. Take the ferry service.

[Lone Wolf]

Good post, Jack. Until Steve the Ferryman himself joins this thread, I doubt anyone responding to this thread will have had more experience at the Ferry Crossing of the Kennebec over the last three + decades than I have. Based on my experience: The 'go early morning' and other fording advice you might hear here is seriously and dangerously out of touch, directly lifted from 1980's guidebooks that were outdated even way back then. Take the ferry service.

how many times have you forded? it's not dangerous early in the morning

[weary]

However, if those flood gates are opened just after you start fording, you will be extremely lucky not to get drowned, or at the very least, lose your pack and have to swim to the bank.

And if you care about such things (I maintain that you shouldn't) I am told that fording rather than taking the ferry disqualifies you as a thru-hiker in the eyes of the ATC.
Just the opposite is technically true. The ferry is the official AT route across the Kennebec River. But don't pay any attention to this fact. Anybody who sends in a name and address, claiming thru hiker or 2000 miler status will get a piece of paper calling them a thru hiker or a 2000 miler, regardless of how they actually do the trail.

This is how it should be. ATC struggles annually to raise the money needed to fullfill its obligations to the trail. If you claim to be a thru hiker -- or any other kind of hiker, for that matter -- you will get an appropriate certificate, along with a request for a donation, and will be put on a mailing list that asks for additional donations for decades to come.

My advice is to make a contribution. My research suggests that no requestor is more more worthy -- especially for those who believe, rightly, that the Appalachian Trail is a very unique and fragile resource.

For those with experience in Maine or who have been impressed by my pleadings please make an additional contribution to the MAINE Appalachian TRail Land Trust.

Our goal is to protect the wild nature of the trail in Maine, which has been mostly bought by land speculators and potential developers.

Weary www.matlt.org

[Appalachian Tater]

Just the opposite is technically true.

Weary, I think you misread what he wrote.

[ferryman]

The window of opportunity to ford in the early morning is limited to just the months of July and August maybe. So LF, your right two times out of twelve. Give the ATC credit for eliminatiing any injury or mishap to any persons if they choose to take the canoe ride. Let the record stand of twenty one years without a single mishap to any hiker at any time. Do not even start to talk about the "attempted fords" of which there were 6 or 7 hikers this year who read WD's unintellectual comments put forth as register entries to influence the unsuspecting hiker and thus setting them right into the frying pan. I know because I was pulled into the proverbial frying pan on many occasions these last twenty years. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it comes right down to it. Taking the ferry ride is successful 100 % of the time whereas jumping in the drink, you take your own chances and maybe an unsuspecting hiking partner's chances as well. Maybe you wannebe's can start talking about recipe's you cook out of the back of your slackpacking trailers. In the meantime, let the river flow! canoe guy has been. Steve

[take-a-knee]

When I get there I'm gonna make a poncho raft and swim it across...naked...at night.

[shelterbuilder]

When I get there I'm gonna make a poncho raft and swim it across...naked...at night.

Watch out for those hungry monster snapping turtles!! OUCH!:eek:

[mobileman]

Jack Tarlin: I have read a number of posts where you disagree with other WB members and are critical of them and express sarcasm. Then I have read a number of posts where other WB members disagree with you and you become critical of them and express sarcasm. Some folks could get the impression that you stir the pot up. I'm sure that's not your intention. As a matter of fact I thought you were quite the guy when I met you at the ALDHA gathering earlier this month. Just thought I would call it to your attention in case you were not aware of it. Peace be with you Jack, may you enjoy peace on the trails of life each and every day.

[Lone Wolf]

The window of opportunity to ford in the early morning is limited to just the months of July and August maybe. So LF, your right two times out of twelve. Give the ATC credit for eliminatiing any injury or mishap to any persons if they choose to take the canoe ride. Let the record stand of twenty one years without a single mishap to any hiker at any time. Do not even start to talk about the "attempted fords" of which there were 6 or 7 hikers this year who read WD's unintellectual comments put forth as register entries to influence the unsuspecting hiker and thus setting them right into the frying pan. I know because I was pulled into the proverbial frying pan on many occasions these last twenty years. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it comes right down to it. Taking the ferry ride is successful 100 % of the time whereas jumping in the drink, you take your own chances and maybe an unsuspecting hiking partner's chances as well. Maybe you wannebe's can start talking about recipe's you cook out of the back of your slackpacking trailers. In the meantime, let the river flow! canoe guy has been. Steve
how many times have you forded?

[weary]

Weary, I think you misread what he wrote.
You're right. I wonder how that happened.

Weary

[weary]

Jack Tarlin: I have read a number of posts where you disagree with other WB members and are critical of them and express sarcasm. Then I have read a number of posts where other WB members disagree with you and you become critical of them and express sarcasm. Some folks could get the impression that you stir the pot up. I'm sure that's not your intention. .....
Well, you are partly right.

[dessertrat]

how do you know this?

I know people have posted the water flow charts on the internet, and I've seen them.

There is no way to know when they will open the gates, although I will concede it is likely to be during the day, late in the morning or in the afternoon.

However, if they open those gates, L. Wolf, that water is most likely going over your head, and even if it doesn't, it is going to increase in force enough so that even Rambo on steroids couldn't stand up in it.

I've been down the Kennebec in a raft, and I've seen what happens to that water level when the gates open.

Hundreds of people have forded successfully, that is true. Those hundreds did not do so by dint of skill or knowledge. They did it by luck.

With all due deference to Mr. Doyle's experience, (undo hipbelt, proper poles, etc.), none of those techniques are relevant to the amount of water that will suddenly come upon you if the dam is opened at the wrong time for your particular crossing.

[Lone Wolf]

show me the release records for the past 20 years and i bet they never release at 7 am

[Desert Lobster]

The best time to ford is the middle of the day! Fairly easy walk with slight current and good footing!

[saimyoji]

If you're a lobster. But then, what are you doing out of the pot? :rolleyes:

[warren doyle]

It was not luck that allowed me to safely ford the Kennebec at least three dozen times.

It is unfortunate that some people are almost in a state of denial when it comes to the simple fact that "under certain conditions and with proper procedures, the Kennebec can be forded safely." This is a true statement.

[Jack Tarlin]

The "simple fact" is that Steven Longley knows this area a helluva lot better than you do, Warren, and it is his considered opinion that fording the Kennebec is a lousy idea.

The only one in denial of the facts here, Warren, is you.

[warren doyle]

[quote=ferryman;433639] "The window of opportunity to ford in the early morning is limited to just the months of July and August maybe."

[Desert Lobster]

Ford if you want!! You might drown, you might not! Really doesn't matter a heck of a lot!

[Jack Tarlin]

And most thrus aren't even there til late August or September or even October, so your much vaunted "window" of opportunity is actually before most thru hikers are even in the area.

In short, when most thru hikers get there, your alleged safe window has been shut for some time.

Fording the Kennebec is a lousy idea, Warren, and please don't twist Steve's words for your own convenience. He has continually spoken against fording and you well know it.

[saimyoji]

And most thrus aren't even there til late August or September or even October, so your much vaunted "window" of opportunity is actually before most thru hikers are even in the area.

In short, when most thru hikers get there, your alleged safe window has been shut for some time.

Fording the Kennebec is a lousy idea, Warren, and please don't twist Steve's words for your own convenience. He has continually spoken against fording and you well know it.


Others have suggested fording the river, why don't you spend as much time chasing them down? :rolleyes:

Not supporting Warren, just observing....:cool:

[Jack Tarlin]

You're dead wrong. I've sparred with Lone Wolf over this subject many times.

I disagree with Warren, Wolf, Rock, and anyone else who downplays the risks of fording the Kennebec.

So nobody is getting "chased down" here; calm yourself.

[smokymtnsteve]

let'em ford...

[Appalachian Tater]

Ford if you want!! You might drown, you might not! Really doesn't matter a heck of a lot!

That is indeed Mr. Doyle's attitude.

[shelterbuilder]

Am I reading this discussion wrong, or is it really "safety" vs. "machismo"?:confused:

[Appalachian Tater]

Am I reading this discussion wrong, or is it really "safety" vs. "machismo"?:confused:

For some it may be machismo, some may say it is to express their freedom, for others it may be that they just like to be contrary, some people may like fording rivers, for others it may be their way of attacking the ATC. Some may claim it is one of these things, but it is actually another, or something else entirely.

Personally, I don't care whether someone chooses to ford or take the canoe, but encouraging someone else to ford when the risks cannot be fully understood by anyone and are well understood by few, is appallingly immoral, especially when some of the encouragers are not even in the few.

[Lone Wolf]

The "simple fact" is that Steven Longley knows this area a helluva lot better than you do, Warren, and it is his considered opinion that fording the Kennebec is a lousy idea.

The only one in denial of the facts here, Warren, is you.

how many times has steve forded. he won't answer

[Lone Wolf]

You're dead wrong. I've sparred with Lone Wolf over this subject many times.

I disagree with Warren, Wolf, Rock, and anyone else who downplays the risks of fording the Kennebec.

So nobody is getting "chased down" here; calm yourself.

how many times have you forded?

[woodsy]

Can't imagine why he would want to L. Wolf when he's got a canoe right there. You have to admit it's pretty slippery walking unless you swim.

[shelterbuilder]

For some it may be machismo, some may say it is to express their freedom, for others it may be that they just like to be contrary, some people may like fording rivers, for others it may be their way of attacking the ATC. Some may claim it is one of these things, but it is actually another, or something else entirely.

Personally, I don't care whether someone chooses to ford or take the canoe, but encouraging someone else to ford when the risks cannot be fully understood by anyone and are well understood by few, is appallingly immoral, especially when some of the encouragers are not even in the few.

Call me chicken, but I wouldn't want to be in the middle of any river when the flood gates are opened upstream.

When I was a kid, my dad and I used to go shad fishing on the Delaware River at the point where the Lackawaxen River dumped into it. The dam upstream from this point was opened regularly to release water (no, I don't remember why), and if you were standing on the banks of the Lackawaxen, you had to watch for sudden water surges and get up the bank as quickly as possible. And every so often, there'd be someone who thought that he knew better, and would either get trapped on a rock or get washed off of it. I would imagine that it's much the same here, only you're already IN the water. Moving water is one force that you CANNOT fight successfully, IMHO.:( :eek:

[Jack Tarlin]

Once. Around ten years ago. And once was enough.

It was a foolish thing to do.

[Appalachian Tater]

Call me chicken, but I wouldn't want to be in the middle of any river when the flood gates are opened upstream.

When I was a kid, my dad and I used to go shad fishing on the Delaware River at the point where the Lackawaxen River dumped into it. The dam upstream from this point was opened regularly to release water (no, I don't remember why), and if you were standing on the banks of the Lackawaxen, you had to watch for sudden water surges and get up the bank as quickly as possible. And every so often, there'd be someone who thought that he knew better, and would either get trapped on a rock or get washed off of it. I would imagine that it's much the same here, only you're already IN the water. Moving water is one force that you CANNOT fight successfully, IMHO.:( :eek:

That is absolutely correct and you are right to rely on your experience. I too spend some time around dams and have seen what happens when there is a large release. When you ford downstream from a dam you are just gambling that they don't release. If they do, almost no amount of experience, strength, swimming ability, or machismo will save you. It's basically Russian roulette with the odds more in your favor.

[Desert Lobster]

Jack,

Of course there is risk, but if somebodywants to do it, why should anybody care???

By the way, smoking is riskier!

[Lone Wolf]

fording is very safe

[shelterbuilder]

Jack,

Of course there is risk, but if somebodywants to do it, why should anybody care???

By the way, smoking is riskier!

Why would you NOT care?:confused:

[Jack Tarlin]

Lobster:

What an adult wishes to do with their own life is their own business.

What some of us question, however, is advocating that other people do this, especially people who may not know as much about the river as the people who are doing the advocating.

I genuinely believe that someday someone else will die here, partly as a result of being encourgaed to engage in an activity that I think is risky and foolhardy.

So that's why I care about this. I'd rather not see anyone else get killed here.

There are evidently other folks here who aren't overly concerned about this possibility.

I respectfully disagree with them.

[Lone Wolf]

Once. Around ten years ago. And once was enough.

It was a foolish thing to do.

what time of day? be honest

[warraghiyagey]

Lobster:

What an adult wishes to do with their own life is their own business.

What some of us question, however, is advocating that other people do this, especially people who may not know as much about the river as the people who are doing the advocating.

I genuinely believe that someday someone else will die here, partly as a result of being encourgaed to engage in an activity that I think is risky and foolhardy.

So that's why I care about this. I'd rather not see anyone else get killed here.

There are evidently other folks here who aren't overly concerned about this possibility.

I respectfully disagree with them.

Well said Jack.

[Jack Tarlin]

Early in the morning. And with other people. And after I'd been "instructed" by people who'd claimed to have done it before.

But it still scared the **** out of me (I'm a lousy swimmer!).

So people can do it if they want, that's entirely up to them. But I'll stick to the boat.

[warraghiyagey]

. . .By the way, smoking is riskier!

By what parameters? If someone forded the Kennebec once for each time they smoked a cigarette I'l' bet the Kennebec would win the 'meet your maker' award. . . everytime.

[Appalachian Tater]

Something that I always find amusing in these fording discussions is that the people who say it is safe and encourage others to do it have no real information to support what they're saying. Their position is that they've done it and been lucky and so you should do it. The best reason that they've come up with for wanting to do it is to truly understand how escaping slaves felt as they forded rivers.

I guess if you believe them and think that doing something unsafe because some says you can is a good idea, by golly, you SHOULD ford. Natural selection at work.

[Appalachian Tater]

(I'm a lousy swimmer!).

Which would be absolutely irrelevant in a water release.

[Lone Wolf]

Something that I always find amusing in these fording discussions is that the people who say it is safe and encourage others to do it have no real information to support what they're saying. Their position is that they've done it and been lucky and so you should do it. The best reason that they've come up with for wanting to do it is to truly understand how escaping slaves felt as they forded rivers.

I guess if you believe them and think that doing something unsafe because some says you can is a good idea, by golly, you SHOULD ford. Natural selection at work.

and you asswipes who have never forded say it's deadly and have no real info to support it

[The Old Fhart]

According to the Ferryman's post in another thread: (emphasis mine)
"The current total stands at 448 northbound thru-hikers and 141 southbound thru-hikers. There were 38 flipfloppers who presumably connected all the dots to complete their thru-hikes. If you count the 16 hikers who forded the Kennebec River this hiking season, that would bring the total number of thru-hikers to ...448 nobo plus 38 FF plus 16 forders equals 502 thru-hikers." Apparently the majority of thru hikers are choosing to believe the prudent information from the ATC and other knowledgeable people and not buying into the "you're a weenie if you don't ford" campaign pushed by a very few.

[Appalachian Tater]

and you asswipes who have never forded say it's deadly and have no real info to support it

I really don't think that deserves an intelligent response. All the old threads are available to anyone who knows how to Google or is willing to wade through the archives.

[Jack Tarlin]

Um, Wolf, someone has died fording it.

That sounds "deadly" to me. :-?

[warraghiyagey]

. . . I guess if you believe them and think that doing something unsafe because some says you can is a good idea, by golly, you SHOULD ford. Natural selection at work.

True, but you're only at risk if you grab one of the 'natural selection coupons' that some of the fording advisers hand out.

[Appalachian Tater]

Um, Wolf, someone has died fording it.

That sounds "deadly" to me. :-?

Many more than one. Just one recently.

[Lone Wolf]

Um, Wolf, someone has died fording it.

That sounds "deadly" to me. :-?

only one. quite a few have been murdered. fording is safe

[MOWGLI]

There is a US Forest Service employee that I work with regularly who has the following quote in the signature of her emails. I think it applies here.

"When all the dangerous cliffs are fenced off, all of the trees that might
fall on people are cut down, all of the insects that bite are
poisoned....and all of the grizzlies are dead because they are occasionally
dangerous, the wilderness will not be made safe. Rather the safety will
have destroyed the wilderness." - R. Yorke Edwards

Think about it.

[warraghiyagey]

There is a US Forest Service employee that I work with regularly who has the following quote in the signature of her emails. I think it applies here.

"When all the dangerous cliffs are fenced off, all of the trees that might
fall on people are cut down, all of the insects that bite are
poisoned....and all of the grizzlies are dead because they are occasionally
dangerous, the wilderness will not be made safe. Rather the safety will
have destroyed the wilderness." - R. Yorke Edwards

Think about it.
That MOGLI has got to one of the coolest dudes out there. Two cedar fronds to the fire and an offering of the pipe to the four corners in your honor.

[MOWGLI]

That MOGLI has got to one of the coolest dudes out there. Two cedar fronds to the fire and an offering of the pipe to the four corners in your honor.

You are too kind.

~The Zenmaster~ ;)

[warraghiyagey]

Um, Wolf, someone has died fording it.

That sounds "deadly" to me. :-?

I've said it before. I would only ever consider fording the Kennebec if WOlf was there and judged it safe. Otherwise, I would never do it or advice anyone to do so either.

[Lone Wolf]

I've said it before. I would only ever consider fording the Kennebec if WOlf was there and judged it safe. Otherwise, I would never do it or advice anyone to do so either.

thanks for the vote of confidence but you had better pray to christ i ain't been drinkin'!:banana

[Jack Tarlin]

Um, you're missing the point, Mowgli.

If an adult wants to walk along the edge of a dangerous cliff, or wants to set up his tent underneath a deadfall, or doesn't take food safety precautions in grizzly country, that is ENTIREY his choice.

What some people object to isn't necessarily the dangerous activity per se, but the ENCOURAGING of other people to do so as well, especially people who may not be well versed in how one can engage in this activity in a less dangerous manner.

If people want to engage in reckless or foolhardy activities in the outdoors, Mowgli, that is entirely up to them. But encouraging others to do so is an entirely different manner.

Please excuse this example, but I think that it's valid: If someone wants to hike during an electrical storm on an open exposed ridge, that's entirely their decision. But if they encourage others to do so, and especially if they downplay the risks of doing so, well I think this is wrong.

And telling folks not to do stuff that could get 'em killed is hardly a threat to anyone's "wilderness" experience.

[woodsy]

There is a US Forest Service employee that I work with regularly who has the following quote in the signature of her emails. I think it applies here.

"When all the dangerous cliffs are fenced off, all of the trees that might
fall on people are cut down, all of the insects that bite are
poisoned....and all of the grizzlies are dead because they are occasionally
dangerous, the wilderness will not be made safe. Rather the safety will
have destroyed the wilderness." - R. Yorke Edwards

Think about it.
As much as i agree with the quote Mogli, I don't think it totally applies here because in the quote it's talking about naturally occuring hazards.
Yes , the Kennebec was a naturally occuring hazard before the hydro facility was built around 1950. Now that the flow is dam regulated it is more of a man regulated hazard .

[warraghiyagey]

thanks for the vote of confidence but you had better pray to christ i ain't been drinkin'!:banana
I doubt that particular factor would deter me. I'd probably just make sure I was in similar condition.

[Lone Wolf]

I doubt that particular factor would deter me. I'd probably just make sure I was in similar condition.

and it would be fun. fording the kennebec is very safe.

[MOWGLI]

Um, you're missing the point, Mowgli.



Jack, I've been around here at Whiteblaze as long or longer than you. I've followed this discussion every year, and on Trailplace before Whiteblaze existed. I'm missing nothing.

I'm simply making a larger point about risk in backcountry settings.

[ferryman]

What is it about twenty thousand hikers safely crossing the Kennebec River by canoe that you do not understand? Weather and river conditions change dramatically overnight when there is a mere 22 million acres in Maine, mostly mountainous terrain that gets hit with an inch of rain. Does the word runoff mean anything to you? I respect anyone's opinion to decide what course of action to take at the river, but to actively persuade others to join in your folly is truly a joke! For your info, I have spent over 3,000 days at the ferry service and have forded more times than I can remember. I know every rock at that river crossing and I have seen some pretty sorry fords turn into a very rough swim, with hikers losing all their gear in the name of some distorted version of glory. Lessons learned... hopefully, respect for rivers...definitely. Yesterday, I had the chance to see "Into the Wild" and there was a scene of him fording an Alaskan river where he just piled through and kept onto his undisclosed location, but when he arrived back to return to "civilization", he encountered much higher runoff and made the common sense decision to return to his shelter. Respect is the rule on the AT, whether your in The Whites, Georgia in the spring or PA in the heat of summer. Please keep your ego's in check when you spout unproven and unsafe practices that nature let you slide on in the first place! For the love of rivers, dam controlled or not! Steve

[Lone Wolf]

fording the kennebec is low risk

[Lone Wolf]

What is it about twenty thousand hikers safely crossing the Kennebec River by canoe that you do not understand? Weather and river conditions change dramatically overnight when there is a mere 22 million acres in Maine, mostly mountainous terrain that gets hit with an inch of rain. Does the word runoff mean anything to you? I respect anyone's opinion to decide what course of action to take at the river, but to actively persuade others to join in your folly is truly a joke! For your info, I have spent over 3,000 days at the ferry service and have forded more times than I can remember. I know every rock at that river crossing and I have seen some pretty sorry fords turn into a very rough swim, with hikers losing all their gear in the name of some distorted version of glory. Lessons learned... hopefully, respect for rivers...definitely. Yesterday, I had the chance to see "Into the Wild" and there was a scene of him fording an Alaskan river where he just piled through and kept onto his undisclosed location, but when he arrived back to return to "civilization", he encountered much higher runoff and made the common sense decision to return to his shelter. Respect is the rule on the AT, whether your in The Whites, Georgia in the spring or PA in the heat of summer. Please keep your ego's in check when you spout unproven and unsafe practices that nature let you slide on in the first place! For the love of rivers, dam controlled or not! Steve

HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU FORDED?

[MOWGLI]

HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU FORDED?

He said, "more times than I can remember."

[Lone Wolf]

I have spent over 3,000 days at the ferry service and have forded more times than I can remember.

if it's SO dangerous why did you ford more times than you could remember? :-? fun wasn't it? :)

[warraghiyagey]

HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU FORDED?

I'm not doubting him. Steve, I'm gonna e-mail you a couple of photos of us on the south side back in June. Thanks for the conversation and a little history of the Kennebec.

[Jack Tarlin]

Fine, you've made yourself clear with your "larger point."

I'm making a smaller one.

Which is that giving people advice on how to do something that could get 'em killed is a pretty dumb thing to do, regardless of how long someone has been around the hiking community or regardless of how experienced one may be.

But you're welcome to disagree.

[Lone Wolf]

Fine, you've made yourself clear with your "larger point."

I'm making a smaller one.

Which is that giving people advice on how to do something that could get 'em killed is a pretty dumb thing to do, regardless of how long someone has been around the hiking community or regardless of how experienced one may be.

But you're welcome to disagree.

encouraging a totally blind man to hike the AT alone with no help ain't any better

[MOWGLI]

Fine, you've made yourself clear with your "larger point."

I'm making a smaller one.

Which is that giving people advice on how to do something that could get 'em killed is a pretty dumb thing to do, regardless of how long someone has been around the hiking community or regardless of how experienced one may be.

But you're welcome to disagree.

Thanks Jack. That's probably only the 300th time you made that point. <yawn>

Personally, I have faith that most people will figure this out on their own by the time they get to the Kennebec.

[woodsy]

Let's face it folks, if it wasn't for the ferry service , there would probably be a well stocked cemetery on both banks of the river by now.
Give credit where credit is due, ferrymen save lives.

[Kirby]

Based on the several times I have swam in that river, at all times of they day(earliest was 545am, latest was 730pm), it is not fun trying to stand up once you have fallen down in that river. I suppose your best bet if you do fall down when falling, swim against the, at an angle towards the closest bank, that has been the most effective way, for me personally, or reaching the shore safely.

Kirby

[Jack Tarlin]

Except I never said that, Wolf. You need to read better. I spoke in favor of his dream and of his plan to thru-hike. Personally, I don't think a totally blind man is capable of doing the whole Trail without being helped and escorted in many places. Nor would I encourage one to do so.

[Pacific Tortuga]

Jack, your one of the bigest risk takers I've seen in a long time. Smoking like a chimney and hiking.
I hear smoking alone can kill someone, and let's not talk about second hand inhalation.
We all do things that risk lives one way or another. Common sence does not always prevail.
I do not always agree with you but I do respect you.

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, P.T. I put the Camels in the woodstove on the 17th, and this is my ninth day without one.

But thanx for the kind thoughts! :D

[Appalachian Tater]

Based on the several times I have swam in that river, at all times of they day(earliest was 545am, latest was 730pm), it is not fun trying to stand up once you have fallen down in that river. I suppose your best bet if you do fall down when falling, swim against the, at an angle towards the closest bank, that has been the most effective way, for me personally, or reaching the shore safely.

Kirby

Try it clothed with a 35 pound pack on your back.

[Lone Wolf]

Try it clothed with a 35 pound pack on your back.

done it. it's easy.

[Appalachian Tater]

Actually, P.T. I put the Camels in the woodstove on the 17th, and this is my ninth day without one.

But thanx for the kind thoughts! :D

Congratulations and good luck, Jack. If you can go without for nine days, you can go without forever. It is possible, two years for me now.

[MOWGLI]

Actually, P.T. I put the Camels in the woodstove on the 17th, and this is my ninth day without one.



No wonder you're so crotchety. ;) Go Rockies!

[Lone Wolf]

Actually, P.T. I put the Camels in the woodstove on the 17th, and this is my ninth day without one.

But thanx for the kind thoughts! :D

i noticed you weren't smoking hardly at the Gathering.. keep it up

[Kirby]

Try it clothed with a 35 pound pack on your back.

Something I hope to avoid.

Kirby

[Jester2000]

There is a US Forest Service employee that I work with regularly who has the following quote in the signature of her emails. I think it applies here.

"When all the dangerous cliffs are fenced off, all of the trees that might
fall on people are cut down, all of the insects that bite are
poisoned....and all of the grizzlies are dead because they are occasionally
dangerous, the wilderness will not be made safe. Rather the safety will
have destroyed the wilderness." - R. Yorke Edwards

Think about it.

Hey, here's a koan for ya:

If someone in the forest quotes R. Yorke Edwards, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, does anyone really think about it?

[Jester2000]

HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU FORDED?

Until Lone Wolf has been struck by lightning, we can't trust anything he might say as regards the dangerousness of being struck by lightning.

[woodsy]

Be merry, take the ferry, it's fun. Fording the Kennebec sux

[MOWGLI]

Hey, here's a koan for ya:

If someone in the forest quotes R. Yorke Edwards, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, does anyone really think about it?

Who said it has nothing to do with the topic at hand?

[nitewalker]

would a persons height have some play in this discussion?would a taller/heavier person will find it easier and safer than a shorter person to ford the kennebec? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Lone Wolf]

would a persons height have some play in this discussion?would a taller/heavier person will find it easier and safer than a shorter person to ford the kennebec? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

nah. my girlfrind is short, weighed about 115# with a 35# pack at the time she forded. she had no problem at all

[woodsy]

would a persons height have some play in this discussion?would a taller/heavier person will find it easier and safer than a shorter person to ford the kennebec? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Not really, walking on greased bowling balls is walking on greased bowling balls.
And if the wave hits you, you're going down no matter how tall you are.

[Lone Wolf]

there is no "wave" that would hit you :rolleyes:

[nitewalker]

what about the little wave from the ferry??

[woodsy]

there is no "wave" that would hit you :rolleyes:
That's what she said:-?

[Lone Wolf]

who is she?

[woodsy]

who is she?
The poor soul that attempted to ford and drowned.


"The current total stands at 448 northbound thru-hikers and 141 southbound thru-hikers. There were 38 flipfloppers who presumably connected all the dots to complete their thru-hikes. If you count the 16 hikers who forded the Kennebec River this hiking season, that would bring the total number of thru-hikers to ...448 nobo plus 38 FF plus 16 forders equals 502 thru-hikers."
Ferryman did not fail to mention that several of these forders nearly drowned too.


ferryman Do not even start to talk about the "attempted fords" of which there were 6 or 7 hikers this year who read WD's unintellectual comments put forth as register entries to influence the unsuspecting hiker and thus setting them right into the frying pan.

[Lone Wolf]

the pour souln attempted when the river was already too high. and define 'nearly drowned".

[woodsy]

L. Wolf;434883]the pour souln attempted when the river was already too high.
How do you know that?

[Lone Wolf]

how do you know a WAVE hit her?
enough of this. ford early in the morning and it is safe

[nitewalker]

just like the hudson river. when you kayak it in the moring its not too bad but somewhere around 10 or 11 am they let the flood gates out and oh boysie you better hold on too your shorts. it gets pretty rough for a 1st timer to be on that river. my buddy tiped his kayak[1st time out] and low and behold there go his shorts down the river. luckily we had a veteran downstream already and he retrived the shorts.. it was one of the funniest moments ever.. the dude was clinging to a tree on the river bank. it really was classic......

[ferryman]

We are ready to put all of the boats away, but wait, there are still hikers out on the trail expecting a dry ferry ride. Notice I said ferry and not ford. It's all about choices but staying dry is not overrated especially when the temps hover around 30 degrees at night. We are not going to get too distracted by out of bound comments, we're just going to do the job we signed up to do the best we can. Your choice! Special thanks to "Hillbilly" Dave, Dean, Craig "05", Susan and all their family members for helping make the Kennebec River Ferry Service successful in 2007! Steve Longley

[warraghiyagey]

Hey, here's a koan for ya:

If someone in the forest quotes R. Yorke Edwards, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, does anyone really think about it?

That you can't apply the quote to the topic does not mean that it is not relevant or pertinent. It may simply take a level of thought that you aren't in a place to achieve. The quote makes perfect sense for the topic at hand. It's a thought that may consider you to work out your mind rather than having it presented as an easily recognizable shiny object.
'Oooooohhhh, pretty. I get it.' - in response to a trite or glib quote,
or
'Wow, after actually thinking about it I see how it applies.' - in response to a quote that may actually require a little thought.

[Desert Lobster]

How old was the lady that drowned?

[JoeHiker]

All this ford/don't ford talk aside, let's say you don't want to ford and you don't want to take the ferry. Can you walk up/downstream somewhere and cross a bridge/dam?

[warraghiyagey]

All this ford/don't ford talk aside, let's say you don't want to ford and you don't want to take the ferry. Can you walk up/downstream somewhere and cross a bridge/dam?

No, there are no bridges or dams the entire length of the Kennebec.:banana

[Johnny Thunder]

No, there are no bridges or dams the entire length of the Kennebec.:banana


If there are no dams then where does the water surge come from?

[warraghiyagey]

If there are no dams then where does the water surge come from?

Mmmmhmmm. Something there should have alerted the most vacuous of readers that it was meant as humor.

[JoeHiker]

No, there are no bridges or dams the entire length of the Kennebec.:banana


Sorry I thought it was implied in my question but I guess not:

Where is the nearest bridge or dam?

[warraghiyagey]

Sorry I thought it was implied in my question but I guess not:

Where is the nearest bridge or dam?

Not sure, Steve the ferryman would know.

[MOWGLI]

Here's a good page on the Kennebec;

http://www.maineflyfishing.com/ourriver.htm

[Johnny Thunder]

Mmmmhmmm. Something there should have alerted the most vacuous of readers that it was meant as humor.



Sorry, I was distracted by your juvenile use of distracting emoticons. Why not start posting entirely in "lolz" speak?

Either way, you just end up sounding vapid.

[warren doyle]

post #14 - second paragraph=garbage

post #26 - insightful

post #35 - last sentence=garbage

post #39 - insightful question

post #42 - garbage

posts #68 & 86 - insightful

post #87 - first sentence= exaggeration

post #121 - I believe the closest bridge to the Kennebec, that would not involve bushwhacking (for NOBO's), is the Rt. 16 bridge that crosses at Bingham. It would involve turning right on a logging road just past Harrison's Pierce Pond Camp and walking south, finally turning left on Rt. 16 onto the bridge over the Kennebec, and then turning left and walking north on Rt. 201 to Caratunk. I would guess this walk would be in the 35-45 mile range with the last half (on Rt. 201) on a somewhat busy highway with rafting clients and logging trucks. For myself, this alternative would be more riskier than fording the Kennebec under the proper conditions and with the proper technique.

As I have mentioned on previous threads concerning this subject (i.e., Kennebec- ford vs. ferry?), I know I haven't been as passionate about why someone should ford the Kennebec as those who say you should take the ferry. I just want people to know that there are choices.

I question scare tactics - "'duck and cover"; "if Vietnam falls the Communists will be here"; "if we don't fight them there we will be fighting them here"; "the Muslims want to take over the world"; "plastic wrap and duct tape"; "the Kennebec is unsafe to cross at any time"; and on and on.
I have never been a fan of right-wing, fear-mongering talk show hosts.

I am in a profession where we encourage people's dreams and hopes, not their fears. I also feel it is in an injustice for a parent/teacher with personal fears and self-doubt to transfer those fears/doubts onto to their children/students to justify their own insecurities.

I will continue to ford the Kennebec, as I have in the past, when I deem it safe and within my capabilities. I will not ford it when I consider it not to be safe. Most likely my physical condition as I grow older will be the deciding factor and not this beautiful, refreshing river. May my legs feel its flowing current and my feet feel its rocky river bottom for many years to come!

Happy safe fording!

[pitdog]

I hiked the entire AT in 1997 and when I had reached the river the ferry man wasnt around and I forded it in the morning with a big stick as a tri pod. I agree with warren. pitdog:sun

[Jack Tarlin]

Interesting sentiments above.

All I know is if I were a parent and I found out that one of my kid's teachers was encouraging him to do stuff that could get him killed, I'd have a real serious talk with that teacher, and perhaps the teacher's supervisor. If I later found out that someone got hurt or killed because of this teacher's unfortunate suggestions, I'd probably work to see that teacher fired or prosecuted.

"Encouraging people's dreams and hopes" is fine and dandy.

Encouraging them to do reckless, dangerous, foolhardy things is another matter altogether, and no responsible educator does this.

[woodsy]

could you put this in some kind of format cause i don't have time to go back through all those posts to see what you're talking about, thanks


post #14 - second paragraph=garbage

post #26 - insightful

post #35 - last sentence=garbage

post #39 - insightful question

post #42 - garbage

posts #68 & 86 - insightful

post #87 - first sentence= exaggeration

[pitdog]

Than why is the air we breath full of carcinogens.Maybe one should have a talk with many educators.

[Tin Man]

could you put this in some kind of format cause i don't have time to go back through all those posts to see what you're talking about, thanks

It's like a scorebook with him. Except, we all know who the winner is, so why bother? ;)

[warraghiyagey]

Sorry, I was distracted by your juvenile use of distracting emoticons. Why not start posting entirely in "lolz" speak?

Either way, you just end up sounding vapid.

Sorry my vapid post still managed to incur a response. So are all use of emoticons juvenile or just mine? Maybe distraction by emoticons is your issue and nobody else's. I used it to ensure poeple knew it was a joke. You're the only one who missed out.
Insipdly yours,
Warraghiyagey

[woodsy]

It's like a scorebook with him. Except, we all know who the winner is, so why bother? ;)
Well if he doesn't come back with some answers to his so called "garbage posts" then i guess you're right Tin Man

[The Old Fhart]

WD-"I believe the closest bridge to the Kennebec, that would not involve bushwhacking (for NOBO's), is the Rt. 16 bridge that crosses at Bingham. It would involve turning right on a logging road just past Harrison's Pierce Pond Camp and walking south, finally turning left on Rt. 16 onto the bridge over the Kennebec, and then turning left and walking north on Rt. 201 to Caratunk. I would guess this walk would be in the 35-45 mile range with the last half (on Rt. 201) on a somewhat busy highway with rafting clients and logging trucks. For myself, this alternative would be more riskier than fording the Kennebec under the proper conditions and with the proper technique."For those who desire to officially do the ENTIRE® trail and not blue blaze by fording, the canoe is the only accepted way. Overlooking that obvious official option and suggesting going to Bingham to cross on a bridge and walking north on the highway goes way beyond displaying an agenda and being absurd.

[warren doyle]

Post #127 - yet another reading comprehension thing, and subsequent distorted interpretation.

Post #133 - and another reading comprehension thing, and subsequent distorted interpretation (my post #125 was simply answering a simple question in post #117).

Two-thirds of the Holy Trinity still showing their true spirits.

[Tin Man]

Post #127 - yet another reading comprehension thing, and subsequent distorted interpretation.

Post #133 - and another reading comprehension thing, and subsequent distorted interpretation (my post #125 was simply answering a simple question in post #117).

Two-thirds of the Holy Trinity still showing their true spirits.

It's just a river, get over it. :D

[smokymtnsteve]

Um, Wolf, someone has died fording it.

That sounds "deadly" to me. :-?

along with folks dying from automobiles, smoking, and tripping over curbs.

[Kirby]

It's just a river, get over it. :D

Now that was quite clever:o.

Kirby

[The Old Fhart]

WD- Post #133 - and another reading comprehension thing, and subsequent distorted interpretation (my post #125 was simply answering a simple question in post #117).
WD-For myself, this alternative would be more riskier than fording the Kennebec under the proper conditions and with the proper technique."Then why did you say "for myself" if you really meant to say "for others"? :D

[woodsy]

Two-thirds of the Holy Trinity still showing their true spirits.
Hey, what about me, can i make up the last third?
I have to admit that i am totally astonished that the same people? keep coming back here promoting fording an unpredictable river. What ta fuk ails these people other than big macho egos i will never know. Most of the few ford proponents live far away and removed from the daily ups and downs not to mention seasonal rainfall fluctuations from a vast watershed which can swell the Kennebec at any given time. What you are crossing is actually 2 rivers , not one, the Dead River flows into the Kennebec River 8 +- miles upriver and can contribute substantial water to the so called "release" from the Hydro facility. It ain't all as cut and dried as some here would lead you to believe, depending on season,rainfall etc......:rolleyes:

[warren doyle]

Sorry Woodsy but your posts just aren't as consistently mean-spirited to qualify for induction.

I concur that heavy rainfall can raise the water level to unsafe fording levels along with the dam releases. I am familiar with the upriver watersheds.

That is why the visual confirmation of the rockbars upstream is central to whether one should ford or not.

[Appalachian Tater]

could you put this in some kind of format cause i don't have time to go back through all those posts to see what you're talking about, thanks

What I would like to know:

1. Does he really think anyone goes back to see which posts he intended to comment on?

2. What happens if a post gets deleted and the numbering changes?

3. Does he:
a. Keep a pad next to his computer to write down all the numbers?
b. Memorize the numbers while reading the thread?
c. Keep two windows open, one for composing his post and another for counting others' posts?
OR
d. Open every post in a separate window in order to keep track of them?

4. Is he really so ignorant of conventions for posting on message boards or does he just enjoy counting?

[Sly]

Looks like many here would have a tough time hiking the PCT, where there's about ten times as many fords. Many of which are dangerous.

[rickb]

Post #133 - and another reading comprehension thing, and subsequent distorted interpretation (my post #125 was simply answering a simple question in post #117).Anyone who has left the Trail (whether its underfoot or under water) because the route is too difficult to follow, can not lay claim to having traversed its entire length from Maine to GA.

Is the ford even within the officially protected AT corridor?

[rafe]

Anyone who has left the Trail (whether its underfoot or under water) because the route is too difficult to follow, can not lay claim to having traversed its entire length from Maine to GA.

The ATC specifically allows for alternate routes due to flooding, no?

[rickb]

I admire your thought process Terrapin.

But in such situations the only viable substitutes are blue blaze trails and officially required road walks.

Heading off the Trail to a bar (even of the sand variety) is fine if you don't want to traverse the entire AT on your hike.

[Tin Man]

I concur that heavy rainfall can raise the water level to unsafe fording levels along with the dam releases. I am familiar with the upriver watersheds.

That is why the visual confirmation of the rockbars upstream is central to whether one should ford or not.

Summarizing what I think you have said or implied so far:

1. You need to check the upstream rainfall amounts for the past day or so and somehow predict when and how high that affects the flow.

2. You have to check with the ferryman or someone in the know on what the dam release schedule is for the day and hope it doesn't change.

3. You have to visually read some rocks and presumably have some skill in reading them correctly.

4. You need to study and know the techniques involved in fording and presumably have real life experience with an instructor or very experienced forder.

5. You need to stop and say a short prayer to your god that you got steps 1-4 correct before you cross.

6. Then you cross and hope that you don't slip.

Sounds like a blast!!

Hmm, the ferry is looking a lot simpler and safer all the time. I think I will pass on blue-blazing this part of the AT.

[Tin Man]

Heading off the Trail to a bar (even of the sand variety) is fine if you don't want to traverse the entire AT on your hike.

I thought Warren said it was Rock Bar. Dang, I am not a fan of Calypso.

[woodsy]

Sorry Woodsy but your posts just aren't as consistently mean-spirited to qualify for induction.

I concur that heavy rainfall can raise the water level to unsafe fording levels along with the dam releases. I am familiar with the upriver watersheds.

That is why the visual confirmation of the rockbars upstream is central to whether one should ford or not.

Well because it's the world wide web we're talking on, I'm just trying to counter the ford it's safe theory to unsuspecting hikers who may have heard such theory and arrive at the river with a ford or bust attitude.
If you try to ford this btch in June for example, you'll likely have a swim of a lifetime, providing you make it across. High water can run well into July or even August some years. I feel, having been around this area of the river(fishin) alot that it's a seasonal and yearly type thing whether or not fording is practical or not. Blanket statements promoting fording in the morning etc. are misleading and irresponsible, that's what I'm saying
Best know what you're doing before attempting a Kennebec ford.

[The Old Fhart]

SLY-"Looks like many here would have a tough time hiking the PCT, where there's about ten times as many fords. Many of which are dangerous."Totally irrelevant. The question should read: "If you're hiking the PCT and you come to a bridge (and there are many), do you use the bridge or ford?" As you say, many of the fords can be dangerous so if there is a bridge do you use it or put yourself in danger by trying to ford to prove a point. I know when I did the JMT there were lots of fords but I never saw anyone pass up a better safer way to cross a stream whether it be a bridge, or on the A.T., a canoe on the Kennebec.

[Footslogger]

Looks like many here would have a tough time hiking the PCT, where there's about ten times as many fords. Many of which are dangerous.

===================================

What Sly ...no ferry crossings on the PCT ?? Can I float across on my thermarest ??

'Slogger

[Sly]

===================================
Can I float across on my thermarest ??



Yeah sure, if you want to end up in the Pacific! ;) Seriously, most aren't that bad, but sometimes hikers have had to wait until morning to cross because of the snow melt runoff in the afternoon.

PS. One of the most notorious is Evolution Creek. When I got there, I didn't see any creek. I crossed on a snow bridge. Now that was scary. I didn't know if it would hold my weight!

[Lone Wolf]

For those who desire to officially do the ENTIRE® trail and not blue blaze by fording, the canoe is the only accepted way. Overlooking that obvious official option and suggesting going to Bingham to cross on a bridge and walking north on the highway goes way beyond displaying an agenda and being absurd.

what happens when the canoe guy doesn't show up at the river when he's suppose to cuz he got drunk the night before and hikers decide to ford? this hapopened in 92.

[Tin Man]

what happens when the canoe guy doesn't show up at the river when he's suppose to cuz he got drunk the night before and hikers decide to ford? this hapopened in 92.

Find the canoe and paddle yourself?

[EWS]

I've put a lot of thought into this, not really, but anyways, I'll probably ford and play "Silent Hunter" with the canoe.

[warraghiyagey]

Find the canoe and paddle yourself?

Unless you're willing to pack in a ten pound blolt cutter that probably won't work. Steve's pretty diligent about that, with the exception of one alleged miscue 15 years ago.

[Lone Wolf]

Find the canoe and paddle yourself?

that's what i was doing when steve showed up. i had a hacksaw blade and was cuttinng the chain off the canoe. btw, it wasn't steve that was drunk. it was one of his employees

[rickb]

Wouldn't have been easier just to break the thwart?

[MOWGLI]

what happens when the canoe guy doesn't show up at the river when he's suppose to cuz he got drunk the night before and hikers decide to ford? this hapopened in 92.

Linguini (SOBO '01) used inflated garbage bags to float himself across the Kennebec in the wee hours of June. He was bustin' it, and didn't want to wait for the ferryman to show up at 10 or whenever he started his shift back then. I suppose it helps if you have a pack that weighs about 8 pounds.

[woodsy]

that's what i was doing when steve showed up. i had a hacksaw blade and was cuttinng the chain off the canoe.

What? L. Wolf not fording? weenie:)

[rickb]

a thieving weenie.

[MOWGLI]

What? L. Wolf not fording? weenie:)

Musta left his Glock 9MM home on that trip. Steel courage. :rolleyes:

[Lone Wolf]

What? L. Wolf not fording? weenie:)

i forded then swam the last 50 yards to the canoe

[Lone Wolf]

Musta left his Glock 9MM home on that trip. Steel courage. :rolleyes:

i don't own a Glock 9MM :rolleyes:

[Lone Wolf]

a thieving weenie.

i didn't steal anything

[MOWGLI]

i don't own a Glock 9MM :rolleyes:

Lost it in the river?

[rickb]

i didn't steal anything

A foiled tortious conversion weenie doesn't have the same ring.

How about just weenie.

[Tin Man]

i forded then swam the last 50 yards to the canoe

If you were fording, why did you have to swim for the canoe?

[Lone Wolf]

If you were fording, why did you have to swim for the canoe?

because the last 50 yards was much deeper than the first 50 yards. it was late in the morning.

[rickb]

How did the rescue go?

[Lone Wolf]

How did the rescue go?

wasn't much of a "rescue". our packs were saved from getting wet

[Tin Man]

because the last 50 yards was much deeper than the first 50 yards. it was late in the morning.

Was this the only occasion where your fording was less than ideal?

[Lone Wolf]

Was this the only occasion where your fording was less than ideal?

yes. i didn't intend to ford that day. like i said the ferry guy didn't show up so we started to cross. got to deep so i went to get the canoe

[The Old Fhart]

Tin Man-"If you were fording, why did you have to swim for the canoe?"That happens frequently to those who try to use the WD physic method of divining dam releases, sometimes with near-death experiences. If you had to swim across and don't have your pack, then it was left on the other side because the river was to dangerous to cross with a pack.

Think about it, even if you hiked the trail 20 times you'd have maybe 8-10 hours 'exposure' to the Kennebec crossing, none of it up to date, and the river changes every year with the spring snow melt. If you're the Ferryman you have way over 10,000 hours of 'current' river knowledge. I know who's advice I'd follow.

[The Scribe]

All this ford/don't ford talk aside, let's say you don't want to ford and you don't want to take the ferry. Can you walk up/downstream somewhere and cross a bridge/dam?

Well, at Harrison's Pierce Pond Camps you could hike out the road to Route 16, then to Route 201. Then back up to Caratunk where the trail crosses 201.

Let's see. From Harrison's it is 3.5-4 miles to the river, then a few tenth's of a mile from the river to the road crossing. So lets say 4 miles.

To avoid fording and the ferry, it is 20 miles or more to 201, then another 20 miles to the trail crossing.

40 instead of 4.

Scribe

[MOWGLI]

I know who's advice I'd follow.

Glad to see that you're exercising your free will.

[The Old Fhart]

Mowgli-"Glad to see that you're exercising your free will."Common sense wins out over free will every time.:D

If you're on the edge of a cliff, 'free will' says you can jump, is that your point?:-?

[NICKTHEGREEK]

yes. i didn't intend to ford that day. like i said the ferry guy didn't show up so we started to cross. got to deep so i went to get the canoe

I really don't believe anone who was in the Corps, could ever force himself to even consider not wading across with his weapon (or equivalent) at high port. Just come natural I hear.:)

It's pretty near impossible to teach a bird dog not to point and........

[Lone Wolf]

I really don't believe anone who was in the Corps, could ever force himself to even consider not wading across with his weapon (or equivalent) at high port. Just come natural I hear.:)

It's pretty near impossible to teach a bird dog not to point and........

huh? i didn't have a weapon (or equivalent)

[MOWGLI]

If you're on the edge of a cliff, 'free will' says you can jump, is that your point?:-?

No, of course not. You ought to stick to what I wrote instead of trying to divine some new interpretation out of my words.

[dessertrat]

A foiled tortious conversion weenie doesn't have the same ring.

How about just weenie.



Theft requires the intent to keep the thing indefinitely. Conversion requires that he damage it or otherwise make it unfair to give it back to the rightful owner.

He's a "trespass to chattel" weenie!

[warraghiyagey]

Common sense wins out over free will every time.:D

If you're on the edge of a cliff, 'free will' says you can jump, is that your point?:-?

That's a bit of a stretch of MOWGLIs point.:confused:

[MOWGLI]

That's a bit of a stretch of MOWGLIs point.:confused:

Ol Phart is legendary for doing precisely that.

[The Old Fhart]

TOF-"Think about it, even if you hiked the trail 20 times you'd have maybe 8-10 hours 'exposure' to the Kennebec crossing, none of it up to date, and the river changes every year with the spring snow melt. If you're the Ferryman you have way over 10,000 hours of 'current' river knowledge. I know who's advice I'd follow."
MOWGLI16-"Glad to see that you're exercising your free will."
TOF-"If you're on the edge of a cliff, 'free will' says you can jump, is that your point?:-? "
MOWGLI16-"No, of course not. You ought to stick to what I wrote instead of trying to divine some new interpretation out of my words."
Warraghiyagey-"That's a bit of a stretch of MOWGLIs point.:confused: "To imply that making an informed decision is not exercising free will is what I'd consider a snide remark. The cliff remark is equally absurd to show the point.

However, if it was Mowgli16's intent to compliment me on making a wise decision, I apologize.:D

[MOWGLI]

However, if it was Mowgli16's intent to compliment me on making a wise decision, I apologize.:D

The next time you don't try to twist my words will be the first time you don't try and twist my words.

[The Old Fhart]

Mowgli16-"The next time you don't try to twist my words will be the first time you don't try and twist my words."Your standard M.O. is to make a snide remark then cry 'foul' when taken to task for making it. Then you try an off-hand insult by butchering the posters name (it is Old Fhart, not Ol Phart-and you know it) and try to shift the blame to the poster. Finally you escalate the insults.

I guess not accepting my offer ["However, if it was Mowgli16's intent to compliment me on making a wise decision, I apologize.:D"] says it all.

[Desert Lobster]

How old was the lady who drowned fording the river?

Seems to me that it is a case of having the physical ability to survive if you somehow end up slipping or being swept away in the river.

Have folks brought up the fact that the rocks are very slippery on the river bottom?

[NICKTHEGREEK]

huh? i didn't have a weapon (or equivalent)

Are you saying that at some point in your tour as a Marine you never "hit the beach" /waded ashore from a landing craft or at least saw a movie of other Marines doing so?
The weapon at high port goes hand in hand with the hitting the beach part. Didn't mean to confuse you

[Lone Wolf]

what's all that got to do with fording the kennebec? you're the confused one old boy

[Jack Tarlin]

The fact that Alice Ference was 61 at the time of her death is irrelevant.

And Mowgli, your words aren't being twisted. Calm yourself. All O.*. did was to was point out that your introducing the concept of free will to the discussion quite naturally leads to the conclusion that of course one has the right to willfully do foolish things. Like wearing summer clothes in New Hampshire in late October. Or like getting too close to the edge of a cliff. Or like choosing to walk across a river where people have died.

The fact that someone has the "right" to do something doesn't necessarily mean it's a particularly prudent or wise thing to do.

[Lone Wolf]

if she forded in the early morning she would not have died

[Desert Lobster]

Being 61 probably was a factor!

[Desert Lobster]

What year did the ferry start? I wonder how many folks forded without drowning prior to its institution?

[MOWGLI]

The fact that someone has the "right" to do something doesn't necessarily mean it's a particularly prudent or wise thing to do.

Kinda like smoking, right?

[rickb]

"Or like choosing to walk across a river where people have died."

People?

[Jack Tarlin]

Most of the 61 year olds that are on the A.T. (especially the ones that are nearing its completion) are in pretty fine shape.

And as to Wolf's contention that if she'd forded in the morning, she wouldn't have died, misses the simple truth that if she hadn't have forded at all, she also wouldn't have died.

As to Lobster's question as to how many have forded prior to the institution of the ferry, I think we should also question how many might have died WITHOUT the presence of the ferry?

According to Steve Longley, the answer is this: Probably quite a few.

[Jack Tarlin]

That's right, Mowgli. Kinda like smoking.

It's a dumb thing to do, which is why I quit.

But the big diference is I've never encouraged other people to embrace the habit, nor did I go onto the Internet countless times to tell other people, especially young and impressionable people, how one could "successfully" or "safely" smoke if they did it at the right time or place.

That's cuz smoking is an inherently dangerous and dumb thing to do, and "educating" people otherwise would be morally wrong, at least in my opinion.

See the difference Mowgi?

[Just a Hiker]

Are you saying that at some point in your tour as a Marine you never "hit the beach" /waded ashore from a landing craft or at least saw a movie of other Marines doing so?
The weapon at high port goes hand in hand with the hitting the beach part. Didn't mean to confuse you

This type of Amphibious Landing is becoming more rare all the time. I did exactly 2 of them in nearly 12 years in the Marines. The casualty rate for those type of landings is extremely high, so we did most our of Amphibious Landing on AAV's and LCAC's.

[dessertrat]

That's right, Mowgli. Kinda like smoking.

It's a dumb thing to do, which is why I quit.

But the big diference is I've never encouraged other people to embrace the habit, nor did I go onto the Internet countless times to tell other people, especially young and impressionable people, how one could "successfully" or "safely" smoke if they did it at the right time or place.

That's cuz smoking is an inherently dangerous and dumb thing to do, and "educating" people otherwise would be morally wrong, at least in my opinion.

See the difference Mowgi?

Bravo, Jack. I also smoked for many years, and ended up quitting. I still support the rights of those who wish to smoke so long as they harm nobody else, but have never encouraged anyone to smoke, even when I was a firmly entrenched smoker, and in fact discourage it, and discouraged it even when I was smoking.

Neither would I outlaw fording the Kennebec river, for that matter. I would, however, strongly discourage it. It would not be hypocritical even for a person who fords the Kennebec to discourage the practice, since the person fording the river is taking a risk, and nobody should take such a risk without being fully informed of the risks.

[rickb]

It's a dumb thing to do, which is why I quit.

Good deal.

[MOWGLI]

If you ask me, the system is working as designed. A small minority will probably always ford the river. I'm am not for creating a law or deputizing certain hikers to be the Ferry Sheriff to prevent them from doing so.

That's my point. Always has been.

My advice to you & TOF is, Warren is just one man. You shouldn't let him live in your head rent free.

[Jack Tarlin]

He ain't in my head, son. Don't want him there.

But we sure you know where YOUR head is lodged when it comes to this subject.

Come up for a breather once in awhile, Mowgli, fresh air is good for you.

[The Old Fhart]

Mowgli-"My advice to you & TOF is, Warren is just one man. You shouldn't let him live in your head rent free."Nor should you continually shill for him either.;)

[MOWGLI]

Nor should you continually shill for him either.;)

I don't shill for him. In fact, I hardly know him. I just don't like internet bullies.

[warraghiyagey]

Ol Phart is legendary for doing precisely that.
'Legendary,' subjectively speaking of course.:p

[MOWGLI]

He ain't in my head, son. Don't want him there.

But we sure you know where YOUR head is lodged when it comes to this subject.

Come up for a breather once in awhile, Mowgli, fresh air is good for you.

"Son"? :D I see I hit a little too close to home. Hence, the nasty response. That's usually a pretty good indication you've hit the mark.

[Jack Tarlin]

I hit the mark all right.

You can dish it out, but bleat like a sheep when you get any feedback.

And it's been pointed out, tho you've ignored it, that my comments on this subject AREN'T just directed at one individual. I don't like to see Warren advocating this beghavior time and again, true. I don't like to see Wolf do it, either. Or you, Mowgli. So your contention that this is all about one guy is simply wrong.

OK, you've had your breather, you can re-lodge the head now. See ya the next time you pop on outta there.

[rickb]

You shouldn't let him live in your head rent free.

I think the price paid is rather steep.

[MOWGLI]

I don't like to see Warren advocating this beghavior time and again, true. I don't like to see Wolf do it, either. Or you, Mowgli.

OK Jack. Show me where I've advocated fording the ferry, or shut your pie hole. Just because I'm not your sycophant doesn't mean I have advocated fording the river.

PS: There is a robust search engine associated with this site, so please, knock yourself out.

[Jack Tarlin]

Oh. Seems RickB came out for air, too.

Must be getting kinda snug in there these days.

Time to relocate, boys, you can do better.

Maybe.

[MOWGLI]

Should say "fording the Kennebec" above.

[The Old Fhart]

Mowgli16-"I just don't like internet bullies."Self-loathing isn't a good sign.:D

[rickb]

How come Sg. Rock wan't mentioned on that list instead of Mowglie?

[Jack Tarlin]

You've assiduoulsy defended fording's biggest and most vocal advocate, so it pretty much ammounts to the same thing, Mowgli.

Oooh, and I love that "Shut your pie hole!"

Weren't you the one just talking about shots hitting a bit too close to home?

Who's sensitive and all pissy now? :D

[Jack Tarlin]

Yup, I disagree with Rock on this one, too.

Happy?

[rafe]

See ya the next time you pop on outta there.

Tarlin the Internet Courtesy Cop tips his hat and rides off into the sunset. Don't miss the next episode!

[rickb]

Yup, I disagree with Rock on this one, too.

Happy?

At least you agree with me. Best to take the canoe.

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, I'm goin' off to work. And it's raining in town, no sunset tonight.

But thanks, Terrapin, you can always be relied on to say something dumb.

Damn we missed you these past months....... :D

[MOWGLI]

You've assiduoulsy defended fording's biggest and most vocal advocate, so it pretty much ammounts to the same thing, Mowgli.


No actually. It doesn't "pretty much ammounts (sic) to the same thing." Maybe in your mind it does. The obsessed have a way of twisting and turning things.

If you're going to accuse me of advocating fording the Kennebec, I suggest you produce a quote from me doing just that. I've commented on the subject extensively, so you shouldn't have a hard time. Unless of course I haven't done what you claim.

[warraghiyagey]

MOWGLI, should I ford the Kennebec next June?

[mudhead]

Quit stirring, or people will call you an ivory-billed pecker-wood.

[warraghiyagey]

Quit stirring, or people will call you an ivory-billed pecker-wood.

Tee Hee.:D Good one MH. Although I'd rather be an Ivory Billed PW than a yellow-bellied sap-sucker, or even a tufted tit mouse. Oops, in my last two posts I've stirred and drifted. My bad.:) :)

[Jack Tarlin]

Oh, give it a break, Mowgli. With the exception of RickB, you're Doyle's biggest apologist here.

If you don't wish to be seen as a sycophantic ass kisser, then find someone else to cheer-lead for.

But if you're gonna play the carnival shill, then at least be honest about it and stop whining, it's unseemly.

[NICKTHEGREEK]

[quote=Just a Hiker;435940]This type of Amphibious Landing is becoming more rare all the time. I did exactly 2 of them in nearly 12 years in the Marines. The casualty rate for those type of landings is extremely high, so we did most our of Amphibious Landing on AAV's and LCAC's.[/quote

I guess I was just way wrong thinking he'd get something that is so deeply symbolic of the Marines. Going down cargo nets into pitching LCM's was according to legend, about as ballsy an operation as you could do.

How you mending?

[MOWGLI]

MOWGLI, should I ford the Kennebec next June?

That's your decision. I don't know anything about your experience, physical conditioning, how you plan to do it, or what the conditions will be like when & if you reach the river. Plus, I've never done it, so I can't speak from experience about the difficulty involved.

Before I tried to ford that river knowing that there was a ferry service, I'd ask myself, "why do I want to walk across this river." In other words, check your motivation before wading out into the current.

[MOWGLI]

Oh, give it a break, Mowgli. With the exception of RickB, you're Doyle's biggest apologist here.

If you don't wish to be seen as a sycophantic ass kisser, then find someone else to cheer-lead for.

But if you're gonna play the carnival shill, then at least be honest about it and stop whining, it's unseemly.

I thought you were going to work Jack?

I have never apologized for Doyle. Never. That's your interpretation. I give it back to you and your buddies when I sense that you're ganging up in a mean spirited way.

There's always the search function. Show everyone how wrong I am. Go ahead. Betcha can't.

[Jack Tarlin]

Christ, you're sounding like a parrot.

You can have the last word for awhile, Mowgli, I'm bored with this.

As is anyone with any sense, I bet.

[MOWGLI]

Christ, you're sounding like a parrot.

You can have the last word for awhile, Mowgli, I'm bored with this.

As is anyone with any sense, I bet.

Go away then.

[Flush2wice]

Don't get carried away people. Maybe this thread needs a ferry because the current tone is swiftly becoming pretty dam treacherous. Or maybe we need a separate section on this forum where people can go when they get nasty. Sort of like "take it outside".

[warraghiyagey]

That's your decision. I don't know anything about your experience, physical conditioning, how you plan to do it, or what the conditions will be like when & if you reach the river. Plus, I've never done it, so I can't speak from experience about the difficulty involved.

Before I tried to ford that river knowing that there was a ferry service, I'd ask myself, "why do I want to walk across this river." In other words, check your motivation before wading out into the current.

Sorry MOWGLI. My question was supposed to be a facetious comic lead-in. I once roasted Wolf over his advising to ford the Kennebec but have since decided that even though he and I have many different viewpoints, there's still plenty about him to enjoy. And I much more frequently agree with BJack but there is but one Zenmaster here.
Peace friends. A hundred years from now - all new people.

[rafe]

All ferry/Kennebec threads eventually go this way. It's like some law of nature.

[Jester2000]

Who said it has nothing to do with the topic at hand?

That would be me.


That you can't apply the quote to the topic does not mean that it is not relevant or pertinent. It may simply take a level of thought that you aren't in a place to achieve. The quote makes perfect sense for the topic at hand. It's a thought that may consider you to work out your mind rather than having it presented as an easily recognizable shiny object.

Edwards' quote is about people attempting to make wilderness safe, and, by so doing, destroying its wilderness nature. That I can't apply a quote to a topic doesn't necessarily mean it isn't relevant, but in this case no amount of obtuse thought is going to marry a quote about the destruction of the wild with using a canoe on a specific dammed river because of the unpredictable nature of that river.

If the thread were about bridging all of the fords in Maine, the quote would be relevant.

And by the by, you're not in a place to achieve the level of thought necessary to comment on my level of thought.


Sorry my vapid post still managed to incur a response. So are all use of emoticons juvenile or just mine?

Perhaps you need to be less obvious with your humor.


No, of course not. You ought to stick to what I wrote instead of trying to divine some new interpretation out of my words.

So. . .now I'm confused. Am I supposed to think deeply about Mowgli's posts, or just look at the shininess? Man, it's a confusing world.

[Just a Hiker]

[quote=Just a Hiker;435940]This type of Amphibious Landing is becoming more rare all the time. I did exactly 2 of them in nearly 12 years in the Marines. The casualty rate for those type of landings is extremely high, so we did most our of Amphibious Landing on AAV's and LCAC's.[/quote

I guess I was just way wrong thinking he'd get something that is so deeply symbolic of the Marines. Going down cargo nets into pitching LCM's was according to legend, about as ballsy an operation as you could do.

How you mending?

I am doing okay, all the external stitches came out this week, but my face is numb, which bothers me. Mainly I am just bored to death right now....thank God for College Football and the World Series. Thanks alot for asking.

Jim

[MOWGLI]

"Wilderness" is a human construct. While Jester might not think the Kennebec is "wilderness" (perhaps because it's not so designated by a government agency, or for some other reason), take someone out of the city and put them on the banks of the river and see what they have to say.

It's all relative. But I appreciate Jester's input just the same.

[Just a Hiker]

MOWGLI, should I ford the Kennebec next June?


I know you didn't ask for my opinion Warraghiyagey; however, I have crossed the Kennebec 3 times in June, and the Kennebec is still rolling hard during that time due to Winter run-off and Spring rain. Last year infact, Steve could only take one person at a time across the river most days during June. I am just saying to be careful! Just my experience and opinion:D

Jim

[Tin Man]

All ferry/Kennebec threads eventually go this way. It's like some law of nature.

Yup, fording this thread gets more dangerous the later in the day it gets.

[Uncle Silly]

Edwards' quote is about people attempting to make wilderness safe, and, by so doing, destroying its wilderness nature. That I can't apply a quote to a topic doesn't necessarily mean it isn't relevant, but in this case no amount of obtuse thought is going to marry a quote about the destruction of the wild with using a canoe on a specific dammed river because of the unpredictable nature of that river.

And please note, by definition a dammed river is NOT WILD, regardless of its unpredictability. (Jester, I know you know this; just clarifying for others.)

[Uncle Silly]

Yup, fording this thread gets more dangerous the later in the day it gets.

I'm waiting for the ferry. No, screw it, I'm swimmin'. I don't care if it's 6pm. I'll just build a big fire out of the canoe and dry off. :D

[MOWGLI]

And please note, by definition a dammed river is NOT WILD, regardless of its unpredictability. (Jester, I know you know this; just clarifying for others.)

Yes, the Colorado is NOT WILD. :rolleyes: Is that why they call you Uncle Silly?

[Uncle Silly]

Yes, the Colorado is NOT WILD. :rolleyes: Is that why they call you Uncle Silly?

The Colorado is dammed before it leaves the Rockies, and many more times after that. It's so heavily used for irrigation that it doesn't consistently reach the sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River). That doesn't sound like a wild river to me. (Sure, the whitewater can kill you. But the capability of killing you is not a defining characteristic of wildness. If it were, we'd be worried about all those wild SWAT teams.)

I'm using the term "wild river" here as a synonym for "natural river" -- ie, one whose course or flow has not been altered by man. Y'know, like "wild" as in "wilderness"?

Mowgli, is it really that hard to understand?

[MOWGLI]

I'm using the term "wild river" here as a synonym for "natural river" -- ie, one whose course or flow has not been altered by man. Y'know, like "wild" as in "wilderness"?

Mowgli, is it really that hard to understand?

Uncle Silly, I'm pretty steeped in the issues we're discussing. "Wild" is a subjective term. I think you clarified things with your additional comments. But tell me, regarding the quote that Jester felt compelled to dismiss as irrelevant, if you were set down in the middle of the Grand Canyon in a raft, what would your impression be? That you weren't on a "wild" river? Maybe if you'd rafted the river before & after the Glen canyon Dam was put in, you'd have an interesting perspective.


PS: As a conservationist and fisherman, I'm really happy that the Edwards Dam was removed on the Kennebec.

[Uncle Silly]

Uncle Silly, I'm pretty steeped in the issues we're discussing. "Wild" is a subjective term. I think you clarified things with your additional comments. But tell me, regarding the quote that Jester felt compelled to dismiss as irrelevant, if you were set down in the middle of the Grand Canyon in a raft, what would your impression be? That you weren't on a "wild" river? Maybe if you'd rafted the river before & after the Glen canyon Dam was put in, you'd have an interesting perspective.


PS: As a conservationist and fisherman, I'm really happy that the Edwards Dam was removed on the Kennebec.

I'd certainly be having a "wild" time, but that's a different use of the term. Given my knowledge of the history and geography of the area, I'd be under no impression that I was on a river with natural flow.

I would be curious about river conditions before any of the dams were put in. As a conservationist, I'd like to see all the dams removed, but that ain't too likely, is it?

[warraghiyagey]

Sorry MOWGLI. My question was supposed to be a facetious comic lead-in. I once roasted Wolf over his advising to ford the Kennebec but have since decided that even though he and I have many different viewpoints, there's still plenty about him to enjoy. And I much more frequently agree with BJack but there is but one Zenmaster here.
Peace friends. A hundred years from now - all new people.


I know you didn't ask for my opinion Warraghiyagey; however, I have crossed the Kennebec 3 times in June, and the Kennebec is still rolling hard during that time due to Winter run-off and Spring rain. Last year infact, Steve could only take one person at a time across the river most days during June. I am just saying to be careful! Just my experience and opinion:D

Jim

But. . . but. . . .but. . . .cuz I . . . umm, already splained that it was a facetious comic lead-in.
Like I've said before, the only way I would ever ford it is if Wolf was there, judged it safe and I'd follow him through, straight up. As for advising anyone else to, I never would. So I see them both as having a whole lot of right about their views.

[MOWGLI]

I'd certainly be having a "wild" time, but that's a different use of the term. Given my knowledge of the history and geography of the area, I'd be under no impression that I was on a river with natural flow.


Aha! Now we're getting somewhere. You just explained why I said the term "wild" is subjective. Again, I understand the legislative definition. But put someone there without your knowledge, and tell 'em the Colorado isn't a wild river. They'd look at you like you had three heads.



I would be curious about river conditions before any of the dams were put in. As a conservationist, I'd like to see all the dams removed, but that ain't too likely, is it?

Prolly had some serious floods. I too would like to see more dams removed, but with the current energy bind we find ourselves in, that's prolly unlikely.

Nice conversing.

[warraghiyagey]

. . . Nice conversing.

Sunshine on the thread.:) :) :) :)

[Nightwalker]

That's right, Mowgli. Kinda like smoking.

It's a dumb thing to do, which is why I quit.
I didn't know you'd quit. Congrats!

When I quit, almost 7 years ago, I weighed 180. I now, uh, don't. Just be careful. :)

[woodsy]

Sunshine on the thread.:) :) :) :)

This sombetch still smoldering?
These ford threads are like a smoldering underground fire, they get put out for awhile and then pop up somewhere else at a later date, and the firefighters(some good ones here:D) have to go through putting it out all over again:)

[warraghiyagey]

This sombetch still smoldering?
These ford threads are like a smoldering underground fire, they get put out for awhile and then pop up somewhere else at a later date, and the firefighters(some good ones here:D) have go through putting it out all over again:)

Irony: If this thread were a hiker, I'd suggest the ford over the ferry.

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually there was no need for the thread to smoulder....the guy who started the thread posed a simple question, i.e. "Where is the Ferry?"

If the pro-fording people had merely answered the guy's question, there wouldn't have been any argument.

The thread wasn't an hour old when people hijacked it and started pushing fording, or started talking about when it could allegedly be safely forded, etc.

There are any number of authorities who don't feel that it's EVER safe to ford the Kennebec; this is the principal reason the canoe ferry was instituted in the first place.

In absence of a bridge here (which will, in all likelihood never be built), the ATC, which oversees the Appalachian Trail, has made it clear that the ferry canoe IS the official Trail here.

(The guy who started the thread also asked if there was a part of the Trail that couldn't be walked. The answer in this case is that while it is possible to walk across the Kennebec River, wise and prudent people neither do it, nor encourage others to do it).

[warraghiyagey]

. . .(The guy who started the thread also asked if there was a part of the Trail that couldn't be walked. The answer in this case is that while it is possible to walk across the Kennebec River, wise and prudent people neither do it, nor encourage others to do it).

The same concept to which you and MOWGLI have been in harmony with the entire thread.:) :) :) :)

[rickb]

The guy who started the thread also asked if there was a part of the Trail that couldn't be walked. The answer in this case is that while it is possible to walk across the Kennebec River....

I think a better answer is this :

Yes. There is a part of the Trail that can't be walked.

It is impossible to walk the AT where it crosses the Kennebec River as the water is over your head.

People do walk across the Kennebec, but they must leave the AT and go up rive to do so.