View Full Version : Regulating thru-hikers
journalist
10-25-2007, 16:51
Every spring a great glob of thru-hikers goes through the Smokies. They make things miserable for everyone and, as a group, probably cause the largest negative impact to the Smokies in any given year. Here is my solution: restrict the number of thru-hikers allowed into the park each day. I suggest 12 as a good number. You could let four go to Mollies, four to Russell and four to Spence, and that's it each day. You greatly lessen the impact by spreading everybody out. You could park a ridgerunner down at the Fontana entrance to hand out permits. This is a great idea, right?
warraghiyagey
10-25-2007, 16:54
Excellent. The gestapo wants in on the trail. Excellent idea eh? UUUGGGHHH.:mad:
Mabye try screenname BlackJournalist.
warren doyle
10-25-2007, 16:56
About as great an idea as selling appointment calendars to prisoners assigned to solitary confinement.
i would think car campers and weekenders leave more of an impact than thru hikers....all things reconsidered
warraghiyagey
10-25-2007, 17:00
About as great an idea as selling appointment calendars to prisoners assigned to solitary confinement.
Maybe there should be rotating counter gates all along the trail that lock when the quota has been met for the day. And maybe hiker hunters that shoot when they deem we've overpopulated the ecosystem. Then Blackjournalist will have created a story to write.
notorius tic
10-25-2007, 17:06
This my land this is your land? I think you might have missed that lesson in uuuuuummmm. elem. They already try to push faster than some like to hike through that section. I was there during the north eastern this year and it was cold. Ten miles a day was about anyone could do. And they do make us check in (register). And as far as impact we are probabley the least offensive to the trail<:. And really during that time of the year you do not see to many day or section hikers.. But thanks for your input.. It gives me something to think about the next time i run into a journalst on the trail... Peace Notorius TIC
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-25-2007, 17:06
::: Dino seen putting on asbestos base layer :::
Limiting the number of thru-hikers entering the GSMNP might be a workable idea. I'm thinking more like 12 to 15 per day than 4, however. It would encourage people to use the so-to-be-official alternate route of the BMT which would spread the hikers out more . I'd really like to see the BMT route become the official AT route and the way-too-overused GSMNP route become the alternate.
Hopefully hikers will start following SGT Rock's lead and hike the BMT in the park on their way to Maine. It's arguably a prettier part of the park. That would alleviate some of the problems with crowding and human waste by dispersing it.
The Solemates
10-25-2007, 17:18
i would think car campers and weekenders leave more of an impact than thru hikers....all things reconsidered
while i dont necessarily agree with journalist's solution, his observations are right on target. i would disagree with freeleo here though. thru-hikers typically have a larger negative impact to the trail than do car campers: in the smokies this may or may not be easily evident, but obviously the smokies are not the only area impacted. northern GA is hit the hardest, and its all because of disrepectful thru hikers. I've hiked GA 3 times now after the main season of hikers goes thru and their impact is astounding. The GA trail clubs really do an excellent job of cleaning up the mess and preserving the trail. thanks to all the hard workers!
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 17:18
::: Dino seen putting on asbestos base layer :::
Limiting the number of thru-hikers entering the GSMNP might be a workable idea. I'm thinking more like 12 to 15 per day than 4, however. It would encourage people to use the so-to-be-official alternate route of the BMT which would spread the hikers out more . I'd really like to see the BMT route become the official AT route and the way-too-overused GSMNP route become the alternate.
Hopefully hikers will start following SGT Rock's lead and hike the BMT in the park on their way to Maine. It's arguably a prettier part of the park. That would alleviate some of the problems with crowding and human waste by dispersing it.
I was thinking the same thing. I'm not Infantry, but I am a Scout, so in this case I'll use the Infantry motto:
"Follow Me!"
Jack Tarlin
10-25-2007, 17:19
Note to Journalist:
You really think thru-hikers create more of a negative impact in the park?
Well I don't think so. They don't litter as a rule; they bury their waste properly; they don't pollute or abuse water sources; they don't degrade Trails by horseback riding, and so on.
As for "making things miserable" for everyone else, well I've seen thru-hikers share food, clothing and first-aid with ill-equipped weekenders and school groups. Is this what you mean by making other hikers miserable?
In short, I think your comments and tone are pevish and mean-spirited.
And instead of regulating how many can stay at each shelter, it'd make more sense to let thru-hikers camp elsewhere. Then the shelters wouldn't be crowded with them, and sensitive souls like Journalist would have to find something else to complain about.
LIhikers
10-25-2007, 17:53
And what would happen to the hikers who wanted to get into the park but couldn't because of the quota? Would they have to form a line, and camp at the permit office and just wait until it was their turn or would there be a holding pattern for them to hike?
its like tee times in golf....how far in advance could you schedule a send off time
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-25-2007, 18:00
And what would happen to the hikers who wanted to get into the park but couldn't because of the quota? Would they have to form a line, and camp at the permit office and just wait until it was their turn or would there be a holding pattern for them to hike?My guess is most would opt to hike the BMT instead of waiting and this would be a good thing. The AT in GSMNP is currently receiving far too much use for the good of the park, trail or the ecosystems near the trail. Anything that would slow down the traffic would be a step in the right direction IMO YMMV
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 18:06
Get rid of the whole "must walk every mile of the AT" thing and start promoting blue blazing. The Smokies are full of great trails - no need to be all shoe-horned into just one.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-25-2007, 18:08
Is there a similar problem in the SNP or has the hoard thinned out enough by then to not be as much of a problem?
Jim Adams
10-25-2007, 18:09
Check out GSMNP and the AT in mid summer. Thru hikers do cause some impact but nothing like the general public does!
geek
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 18:12
Absolutly.
But if you hike the Smokies on the AT outside of thru-hiking season you can pretty much have the trail to yourself. The thru-hikers in the Smokies do tend to clog up a system that has limited spaces based on the current system.
Journalist:
According to the ATC website, roughly 1,000 thru-hikers get to Fontana Dam each year.
According to the National Park Service, GSMNP is the most-visited park in the country, with 9 million visitors annually.
Boy, those thru-hikers really get in the way, huh, you pack-sniffer.:-?
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.851143/k.C36D/2000Milers_Facts_and_Statistics.htm
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/statistics.htm
Get rid of the whole "must walk every mile of the AT" thing and start promoting blue blazing. The Smokies are full of great trails - no need to be all shoe-horned into just one.
Gotta agree with that - if you can walk from Georgia to Maine or vice-versa, white blazes or blue blazes are no different. Just no yellow-blazes!
Check out GSMNP and the AT in mid summer. Thru hikers do cause some impact but nothing like the general public does!
geek
I have done trips on the AT in thru-hiker season, and all other seasons of the year In my experiences, the crowds in the backcountry are nothing like what you see in April. I recall a long day hike on 4th of July weekend a few years ago where I saw a handful of hikers once I got a mile or so away from the trailhead.
Regarding SNP, yes, the crowds have thinned out.
Appalachian Tater
10-25-2007, 18:17
According to the ATC website, roughly 1,000 thru-hikers get to Fontana Dam each year.
Exactly. Not even a drop in the bucket, even if you start looking at people-miles or whatever it would be.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 18:20
Go during March April - lucky to get shelter space even with a reservation.
Go August - you won't see people for days.
Thru-hikers do crowd up the AT, and in my experience, sort of do make it less enjoyable.
Thru-hikers do crowd up the AT, and in my experience, sort of do make it less enjoyable.
Section hikes are the way to go. ;)
warraghiyagey
10-25-2007, 18:23
Thru-hikers do crowd up the AT, and in my experience, sort of do make it less enjoyable.
Another great reason to go SOBO.
Jack Tarlin
10-25-2007, 18:31
I disagree with Rock.
I think the only place where hikers are "crowded up" are the shelters in Georgia and North Carolina, and this only lasts a few weeks.
And it's crowded in the Smokies only because people are forced to stay in or immediately adjacent to shelters.
Sectioners or weekenders who don't want to deal with crowded shelters in the Smokies can either hike later in the season or can do other sections of the Park that are entirely free of thru-hikers. And as for avoiding crowded shelters outside the Park, this is also easy.....don't stay in 'em!!
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 18:33
I disagree with Rock.
I think the only place where hikers are "crowded up" are the shelters in Georgia and North Carolina, and this only lasts a few weeks.
And it's crowded in the Smokies only because people are forced to stay in or immediately adjacent to shelters.
Sectioners or weekenders who don't want to deal with crowded shelters in the Smokies can either hike later in the season or can do other sections of the Park that are entirely free of thru-hikers. And as for avoiding crowded shelters outside the Park, this is also easy.....don't stay in 'em!!
We are talking about the Smokies Jack. It does stay crowded quite a bit during NOBO season. Stayed a a few of them during the season and they were always over capacity.
So if we are talking about the AT in the Smokies being crowded with thru-hikers during the thru-hiking season, I would say it is true.
I think the only place where hikers are "crowded up" are the shelters in Georgia and North Carolina, and this only lasts a few weeks. ....!!
Right. The big crowds seem to be in February and March these days. Start April 15. As a bonus, only by then do you see the true beauty of the southern Appalachians, the incredible wild flower show. Plus you miss most of that unpleasant ice and snow. I love the four seasons in Maine, but when I occasionally head south, I don't do it because I want to find ice and snow in Georgia.
Weary
Alligator
10-25-2007, 18:47
Journalist:
According to the ATC website, roughly 1,000 thru-hikers get to Fontana Dam each year.
According to the National Park Service, GSMNP is the most-visited park in the country, with 9 million visitors annually.
Boy, those thru-hikers really get in the way, huh, you pack-sniffer.:-?
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.851143/k.C36D/2000Milers_Facts_and_Statistics.htm
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/statistics.htmThose stats don't necessarily prove your point Deadeye. Of those nine million, how many are staying at the shelters? A better measure would be the number of permits issued to use the AT shelters, as these will be non thrus.
smokymtnsteve
10-25-2007, 18:49
most visitors to GSMNP get out of thier cars for less than 30 minutes.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 18:51
most visitors to GSMNP get out of thier cars for less than 30 minutes.
Amen. And thank goodness.
There are over 600 miles of hiking trails in SMNP. If someone does not want to encounter thruhikers on the Appalachian Trail - a bit of an oxymoronic thought when you consider that it IS a footpath from Georgia to Maine that DOES largely have a seasonal flow forced upon its more ambitious participants - then during that fairly brief two month stretch they may want to go walk some of the other wonderful trails that the Park and trail maintainers provide.
I'm no expert, but on my hike I encountered a gal whose was set on hiking every mile of trail in the Park. And from her accounts I was ready to tread off on some of those trails as well.
All in all it's a bit odd to complain about thruhikers on a trail which has become synonymous with long-distance hiking.
I'm no expert, but on my hike I encountered a gal whose was set on hiking every mile of trail in the Park. And from her accounts I was ready to tread off on some of those trails as well.
There was once 900 miles of trails. There is closer to 800 today.
IMO, from having walked many of the parksside trails, the most spectacular parts of the park are the Cove Forests containing BIG trees and the streams filled with moss covered rocks and trout and surrounded by Rhododendron. YMMV
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 19:01
Well not everyone knows to set their plans based on some crazy hikers that are trying to get to Maine via Georgia. Just think of all the folks you have ever met that never even heard of thru-hiking. Now imagine those folks deciding on a nice spring break hike in the Smokies with the kids.
Anyhow, it ain't the section hikers dault all the thru-hikers come through and jam up the shelters. They have to make reservations.
But, if the rules and attitude were to change about AT thru-hiking, things could be different and no one would have to decide how many hikers get to start on each day.
cowboy nichols
10-25-2007, 19:09
This is a question for Sgt. Rock-- where is this BMT trail and is there a map ? I for one would rather bypass the regular white blaze thru the park if possible' Thanks Cowboy
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 19:11
Well there is a BMTA site - www.bmta.org (http://www.bmta.org)
Newest version of the Smokies maps show the BMT - it goes down by the lake.
If you join the "other long trails" membership group you will see quite a few discussions about the BMT, guides for hiking it, and maps that you can use.
We are talking about the Smokies Jack. It does stay crowded quite a bit during NOBO season. Stayed a a few of them during the season and they were always over capacity.
So if we are talking about the AT in the Smokies being crowded with thru-hikers during the thru-hiking season, I would say it is true.
Well not everyone knows to set their plans based on some crazy hikers that are trying to get to Maine via Georgia. Just think of all the folks you have ever met that never even heard of thru-hiking. Now imagine those folks deciding on a nice spring break hike in the Smokies with the kids.
Anyhow, it ain't the section hikers dault all the thru-hikers come through and jam up the shelters. They have to make reservations.
But, if the rules and attitude were to change about AT thru-hiking, things could be different and no one would have to decide how many hikers get to start on each day.
Not disagreeing with you, but if you are taking the kids out for a spring break hike in the smokies it wouldn't take a lot of research to realize that it's peak season. Whether the crowds are new to hiking the smokies or hardcore hikers wouldn't seem to matter.
Moreover, if there was concern the park service itself could steer people away from the AT: In other words, instead of restricting AT hikers from a trail whose modern day purpose to some extent is for those same ambitious souls, move the spring breakers to the underutilized trails. Seems to make as much sense.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 19:21
Not disagreeing with you, but if you are taking the kids out for a spring break hike in the smokies it wouldn't take a lot of research to realize that it's peak season. Whether the crowds are new to hiking the smokies or hardcore hikers wouldn't seem to matter.
Sure, but if you didn't know you needed to research something, why would you research that in the first place? And if you only get a week for spring break with your kids - not like you can decide to wait a couple of months for thru-hikers to move on. Too many people on the site see things from the thru-hiker AT regular perspective. Not everyone gets that same view. But even then, if there were no section hikers over that time period, the shelters in NOBO season are still overcrowded mud hovels. Opening it up and changing the rules a little would be a nice touch, wouldn't it?
Moreover, if there was concern the park service itself could steer people away from the AT: In other words, instead of restricting AT hikers from a trail whose modern day purpose to some extent is for those same ambitious souls, move the spring breakers to the underutilized trails. Seems to make as much sense.
See above statement. How about moving some of those thru-hikers too. Like I said, the section hikers didn't create the situation. Why should they have to get their plans re-arranged because someone with nothing better to do for 6 months wants a bunk space on the AT in a shelter?
Amen. And thank goodness.
Only if seen from a purely selfish point of view -- as in, wanting a nice, quiet, pristine trail to yourself.
But in the more general sense, it's kinda sad.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 19:25
Yes, but the really good thing is most of em drive their SUVs back to GBurg and leave the woods alone (except the shops like at Sugar Lands and Cades Cove)
Lone Wolf
10-25-2007, 19:26
Every spring a great glob of thru-hikers goes through the Smokies. They make things miserable for everyone and, as a group, probably cause the largest negative impact to the Smokies in any given year. Here is my solution: restrict the number of thru-hikers allowed into the park each day. I suggest 12 as a good number. You could let four go to Mollies, four to Russell and four to Spence, and that's it each day. You greatly lessen the impact by spreading everybody out. You could park a ridgerunner down at the Fontana entrance to hand out permits. This is a great idea, right?
totally a great idea.i'm sick of "thru-hikers".
Moreover, if there was concern the park service itself could steer people away from the AT: In other words, instead of restricting AT hikers from a trail whose modern day purpose to some extent is for those same ambitious souls, move the spring breakers to the underutilized trails. Seems to make as much sense.
Why "move the spring breakers"? Don't they have as much of a right to hike the AT as anyone else? We're talking about promoting alternatives.
At the grand opening for the BMT, George Minnigh of the NPS stated his hope that hikers would choose to take the BMT route in the late winter and early spring because that will cut down on SARs in the park during inclement weather. Morgan Sommerville of ATC made a comment that he hoped ATC would award 2000 miler status to folks who chose the BMT route in the park.
Several Whiteblazers were at that Grand Opening including SGT Rock, and can vouch for the inspiring words shared on that day. It's just another way. It's not better. It's just harder and longer than the AT. And there is only 1 shelter on the BMT in the park.
Cookerhiker
10-25-2007, 19:27
most visitors to GSMNP get out of thier cars for less than 30 minutes.
Which I dare say is also the case for Shenandoah.
A lot of them would love the opportunity to not be forced into a bunk space on the AT in a shelter.
Not disagreeing with your sentiments questioning the "hike every mile" credo. But the AT is a comparatively small portion of the trails in the Smokies, and a trail that has morphed to serve another purpose larger if not greater. Currently that involves hiking the AT through the park.
Limiting the number of AT hikers is - in my opinion - pretty low on the list of available options for whatever usage problems the park may have.
cowboy nichols
10-25-2007, 19:29
Sorry dumb ? some days I blonder than others Cowboy
Hiking 'til
Why "move the spring breakers"? Don't they have as much of a right to hike the AT as anyone else? We're talking about promoting alternatives.
At the grand opening for the BMT, George Minnigh of the NPS stated his hope that hikers would choose to take the BMT route in the late winter and early spring because that will cut down on SARs in the park during inclement weather. Morgan Sommerville of ATC made a comment that he hoped ATC would award 2000 miler status to folks who chose the BMT route in the park.
Several Whiteblazers were at that Grand Opening including SGT Rock, and can vouch for the inspiring words shared on that day. It's just another way. It's not better. It's just harder and longer than the AT. And there is only 1 shelter on the BMT in the park.
I wouldn't do either one. Personally I don't think there is a current problem.
On the other hand, limiting the number of thruhikers able to hike ANY portion of the AT is fraught with the perils of unforeseen consequences.
Nor do I have a problem with redefining the trail. But that should happen BEFORE any hiker restrictions to access of the AT take place.
On the other hand, limiting the number of thruhikers able to hike ANY portion of the AT is fraught with the perils of unforeseen consequences.
Seems to work for the JMT. So I'm just sayin...
PS: The same could be said about Blue Blazing. And look at Lone Wolf. Uh, never mind. ;)
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 19:40
A lot of them would love the opportunity to not be forced into a bunk space on the AT in a shelter.
Not disagreeing with your sentiments questioning the "hike every mile" credo. But the AT is a comparatively small portion of the trails in the Smokies, and a trail that has morphed to serve another purpose larger if not greater. Currently that involves hiking the AT through the park.
Limiting the number of AT hikers is - in my opinion - pretty low on the list of available options for whatever usage problems the park may have.
I don't think I or Mowgli have supported limits on anyone hiking the AT. What I do find interesting is the same people that want the AT freely open to get crowded up by AT hikers also want other people to get pushed off the trail. Sort of self serving IMO. Also short sited. The AT hiker gets special treatment by the good graces of the park, and 75% of the time the AT is not for the thru-hiker at all. It is not a thru-hiker highway in the eyes of the park - it is another trail that gets some heavy use in a couple of seasons.
What we want the ATC to recognize the impact that a reward system makes - it is a real thing, study any military leadership manual about how you can promote something with even minor recognition incentives. For the good of the AT and the park the ATC can make a simple rule change and start incentivizing other options. It ain't hard.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-25-2007, 19:40
Journalist:
According to the ATC website, roughly 1,000 thru-hikers get to Fontana Dam each year.
According to the National Park Service, GSMNP is the most-visited park in the country, with 9 million visitors annually.
Boy, those thru-hikers really get in the way, huh, you pack-sniffer.:-?
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.851143/k.C36D/2000Milers_Facts_and_Statistics.htm
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/statistics.htmSo we have 1,000 would-be thru hikers & probably about 100 section hikers each year. Very few of the 9 million visitors attempt to hike on the AT. From permit info, only about 3,500 people per year do overnight hikes on the AT including the thrus and sectioners -- so those attempting to hike the entire AT make up about one-third of the people who use the trail each year. I would call that significant.
Allow me to clarify what I didn't make clear: I do not advocate "pushing people" to other trails. My point was that it makes as much sense - or nonsense - to regulate thruhikers as any other group.
Whether thruhikers have a more debilitating impact on the smokies than everyone else is a dubious assertion. That there are a lot of thruhikers in March and April does not equate to a more harmful impact, and the fact that the Smokies are inundated with spring breakers at the same time is because they are part and parcel products of the same phenomenon: Spring.
As for offering a more varied hiking experience to anybody - thruhiker or weekender - I'm all for ya.
So we have 1,000 would-be thru hikers & probably about 100 section hikers each year. Very few of the 9 million visitors attempt to hike on the AT. From permit info, only about 3,500 people per year do overnight hikes on the AT including the thrus and sectioners -- so those attempting to hike the entire AT make up about one-third of the people who use the trail each year. I would call that significant.
Whoa there, Dino. Overnight permits only apply to a small fraction of the AT. I walked nearly 600 miles of the AT this summer and met only two thru-hikers. Maybe two dozen section hikers (defining a "section" loosely as anything more than a weekend hike.)
The only "overcrowding" I saw this summer was in SNP, and then only within 1/2 mile of the busiest, most accessible trailheads.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 19:53
The only impact I see is the quality of your stay at shelters. I hate them, but that is the rule when staying in the Smokies. But the fact is right now thru-hikers have even less regulation that the typical hiker in the Smokies since they don't need reservations, can self register for shelters, and are not restricted to stay inside the shelter under certain conditions. If one were truly for equal treatment, then thru-hikers get more rules put on them to reduce the load on the infrastructure of the Smokies. IMO this is a bad idea anyway...
Since they are not going to open up more shelters on the AT, the obvious solution is to open up more trails to the thru-hikers by widening the definition of thru-hiking. Man that is simple.
Man that is simple.
And a far cry from the opening premise of this thread.
I would be very interested to know how many weekenders - of which I am very frequently one - come to the Smokies and hike the trail called "The AT" because of the panache associated with thruhiking versus those who somehow choose the AT trail over the myriad of other trails in the park for merits not associated with the fame and notoriety of the Appalachian Trail.
Your point of thru-hikers not being regulated is taken. I would only extend your comments to note that effective regulation will not be remotely possible until other alternatives have been accepted and embraced by the AT community.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-25-2007, 20:03
Whoa there, Dino. Overnight permits only apply to a small fraction of the AT. I walked nearly 600 miles of the AT this summer and met only two thru-hikers. Maybe two dozen section hikers (defining a "section" loosely as anything more than a weekend hike.)
The only "overcrowding" I saw this summer was in SNP, and then only within 1/2 mile of the busiest, most accessible trailheads.You are required to have a reservation for all shelters and shelters are the only legal camping options along the AT. Source: http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-camping.htm . Thru-hikers (meaning anyone who started 50 miles before the GSMNP and plans to hike all the way thru according the GSMNP rules) must have a permit, but do not have to reserve shelter space. So between the permits for thrus and the reservations for non-thrus, they park service knows how many people are using the AT (except for the handful hiking without permits or reservations)
As several have noted, the AT is most crowded during the spring. Removing about 1/3 of those would definitely be a great help both to people's experience on that trail and to the health of the area. The AT (and other GSMNP trails) also have a peak in the fall, but not to the point of over-saturation.
Blissful
10-25-2007, 20:03
We had a group of 15 of us that went through the SMokies. I didn't care to have it that way, but that's the way it happened. We were together by Sassafras shelter and stayed that way until we got out of the SMokies. NOC tends to stack people up. And then having a huge shelter in Fontana where hikers mass. The shelter areas in the Smokies are getting chewed up for certain (though I did appreciate the tenting privilege). Not sure what the solution is. I know they only give up a certain number of permits in SNP per day to hike Old Rag (or they used to).
Flush2wice
10-25-2007, 20:05
Put huts in the Smokies and charge $85 per bunk. Look how well that system has helped the Whites. That would also cut down on the mud snake problem.
The only other reasonable solution is to make the AT off limits to everyone except thru-hikers. Maybe put a few hostels in there too.
Lone Wolf
10-25-2007, 20:06
Put huts in the Smokies and charge $85 per bunk. Look how well that system has helped the Whites. That would also cut down on the mud snake problem.
The only other reasonable solution is to make the AT off limits to everyone except thru-hikers. Maybe put a few hostels in there too.
make all thru-hikers take the BMT around the Smokys
The Weasel
10-25-2007, 20:06
This thread is the biggest trolling incident since Kerry and the Swift Boaters. Sheesh.
tw
Flush2wice
10-25-2007, 20:08
This thread is the biggest trolling incident since Kerry and the Swift Boaters. Sheesh.
tw
Ya think??
This thread is the biggest trolling incident since Kerry and the Swift Boaters. Sheesh.
tw
No it's not. Other popular trails managed by the NPS have a permit system. The JMT & Wonderland Trail come to mind immediately. What's wrong with discussing that relative to the AT?
I would be very interested to know how many weekenders - of which I am very frequently one - come to the Smokies and hike the trail called "The AT" because of the panache associated with thruhiking versus those who somehow choose the AT trail over the myriad of other trails in the park for merits not associated with the fame and notoriety of the Appalachian Trail.
Is it the fame/notoriety/panache, or the simple fact that the AT, by definition, owns the ridges and the most accessible beauty spots?
It is by design that the AT travels along the ridges, wherever it goes. Which means that the most spectacular views will almost always be on the AT, and all other trails are seen as "tributaries" to the AT.
BTW, it's pretty much the same situation in the Whites; in another thread we're discussing the pros/cons of the AMC huts and how to deal with them. But you know, if you want a killer view from a relatively easy day hike in the Whites, nothing beats the Franconia Ridge. Ergo, on a nice summer afternoon, you'll literally meet hundreds of other hikers.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 20:11
And a far cry from the opening premise of this thread.
I never ever said I agreed with that premis, only the fact that the trail experience is reduced by the crowds. It is.
I would be very interested to know how many weekenders - of which I am very frequently one - come to the Smokies and hike the trail called "The AT" because of the panache associated with thruhiking versus those who somehow choose the AT trail over the myriad of other trails in the park for merits not associated with the fame and notoriety of the Appalachian Trail.
Again, not everyone knows about thru-hiking or even if they do, understand it's impact until they experience it. I don't realy think (based on hiking during that time) that the average section hiker even pays it much attention like we do, until they are there. And with that - it isn't the section hiker we are talking about any way. It is the thru-hiker. And they feel the impact too.
Your point of thru-hikers not being regulated is taken. I would only extend your comments to note that effective regulation will not be remotely possible until other alternatives have been accepted and embraced by the AT community.
Yep, and this discussion is hear to pay them a wake up call on that. And the continued discussion about the side trails that can be used is a part of that road to that point. The AT didn't get popular overnight, so the push to get people to try other options needs the incentives. Lets all push to give folks the option. One can still hike the AT as part of a thru-hike if they want to, but their experience could be better if part of that pack went on another trail.
Jack Tarlin
10-25-2007, 20:14
Actually a great many of the most spectacular views in the Presidentials aren't on the A.T. In many cases, they are miles away.
And this is true in other places as well. This year I roadwalked much of Shenandoah National Park, and the really good views are almost all on the road and not on the Trail.
I suspect there are scores of great views in the Smokies that 99% of thru-hikers will never ever see because they aren't on the A.T.
Sometimes getting off the Trail can be a very good thing.
Actually a great many of the most spectacular views in the Presidentials aren't on the A.T. In many cases, they are miles away.
Excuse me? The AT runs right along the ridgeline of the Presidentials.
Jack Tarlin
10-25-2007, 20:22
Gee, thanks for pointing that out, Terrapin.
Believe it or not, I actually know where the A.T. runs in New Hampshire, OK?
All I was saying is that there are plenty of other really scenic spots in the Whites that are nowhere near the A.T.
Is that clear, or do I need to say it a third time?
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 20:23
There are some great views from other places besides the AT in the Smokies, besides the AT in the Nantahalas, and besides the AT in other parts of the Appalachians. You have to find them though. I ain't going to make it easy :p
Saying the best views and the only good views are on the AT is sort of short sited. It is also hard to quantify "best" - there are great things to see in all sorts of places along these trails. Saying these are the best is in the eye of the beholder.
OK, just one really quick - find Wigg medow. You will love it. Hint - it isn't on the AT.
The Old Fhart
10-25-2007, 20:24
_terrapin_ "Excuse me? The AT runs right along the ridgeline of the Presidentials."The A.T. does not go over Adams, Monroe, etc., but around the summits.
All I was saying is that there are plenty of other really scenic spots in the Whites that are nowhere near the A.T.
I agree 100%, but that's not what you said in the post I responded to.
Is that clear, or do I need to say it a third time?
If you'd said it even once, we wouldn't be having this discussion. ;)
There were many spots on the AT - SNP and parts of Maine come immediately to mind - where I felt I was missing more scenic trails because I was fully invested in the AT.
And if we want to broaden the definition of "AT" to include multiple options along many sections of trail you have my vote.
MOWGLI - I'm interested: How does the permitting system for the JMT work with PCT thruhikers, and how would you envision it working if the PCT had the same draw in terms of numbers of thru attempts as the AT?
Was on Whitney in August but didn't really examine the JMT permitting system.
Lone Wolf
10-25-2007, 20:33
they're regulated at Baxter. regulate them in the Smokys too.
Appalachian Tater
10-25-2007, 20:35
The Florida Trail officially goes both east and west of Lake Okeechobee. The Long Path has an official alternate route of taking the A.T. over to the Shawangunks and then heading north. It's not unprecedented.
Or you could just eliminate the whole idea of a thru-hike.
MOWGLI - I'm interested: How does the permitting system for the JMT work with PCT thruhikers, and how would you envision it working if the PCT had the same draw in terms of numbers of thru attempts as the AT?
Was on Whitney in August but didn't really examine the JMT permitting system.
Excellent question! For which I have no answer. I was strictly a SOBO JMT hiker. Of course, not all of the JMT is concurrent with the PCT. From Yosemite Valley to Tuolumne Meadows the trails are separate. Mt Whitey (as you know) is another place.
Maybe someone like Tha Wookie or Sly will weigh in on this.
Saying the best views and the only good views are on the AT is sort of short sited. It is also hard to quantify "best" - there are great things to see in all sorts of places along these trails. Saying these are the best is in the eye of the beholder.
Don't put words in my mouth, please. I never said "the only good views." And I specifically noted that the AT often has the "most accessible" views.
My introduction to hiking was in fact on two of these awesome "beauty spots" on the AT: Moosilauke summit and the Franconia Ridge. I can't blame people for wanting to hike in these places. I wouldn't have it any other way.
But now that I know my way around these mountains, I know where to go for solitude if that's what I'm after.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 20:42
It is by design that the AT travels along the ridges, wherever it goes. Which means that the most spectacular views will almost always be on the AT, and all other trails are seen as "tributaries" to the AT.
I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I just used the word beautiful instead of spectacular. You said it.
they're regulated at Baxter. regulate them in the Smokys too.
I don't have a problem with that.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-25-2007, 20:44
IMO, of the five best views in the GSMNP only one is on the AT. The best views in the Nanahala are also not on the AT. Whigg Meadow, mentioned by Rock, rivils any view available on the AT as does the bald off the Cherohala whose name escape me - the one with the 360* view of nothing but mountains and two crosses on top. Tipi Walter, I'm sure you know this one.
soulrebel
10-25-2007, 20:46
Get the F outta the Smokies Challenge-- GFoSC
As you enter, the state will place a 6-pack of beer in a time-lock safe at Davenport Gap. You have 72-hours to get there.
Much cheaper than all the micro management.
Also, last time I checked, most thru-hikers don't "hang out" or take their time in the smokies b/c A) RULES SUCK! B) the weather is a lil more intense at the higher elevations.
Also, last time I checked, most thru-hikers don't "hang out" or take their time in the smokies b/c A) RULES SUCK! B) the weather is a lil more intense at the higher elevations.
They don't "hang out" there 'cuz most of the time (when the wave of nobos is rushing thru) the weather sucks. ;)
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 20:51
IMO, of the five best views in the GSMNP only one is on the AT. The best views in the Nanahala are also not on the AT. Whigg Meadow, mentioned by Rock, rivils any view available on the AT as does the bald off the Cherohala whose name escape me - the one with the 360* view of nothing but mountains and two crosses on top. Tipi Walter, I'm sure you know this one.
Lets not forget other sights besides the views from balds. The best waterfalls in the Nantahallas are not on the AT (they are side trips off the BMT). But a half mile side trail off the BMT will get you to a great waterfall and swimming hole.
Gotta agree with that - if you can walk from Georgia to Maine or vice-versa, white blazes or blue blazes are no different. Just no yellow-blazes!It depends on what your goal is.
Some people may want to walk from Georgia to Maine, but most folks want to hike the Appalachian Trail. That would preclude Taking the Freeman Trail around Blood, cutting off the Deep Gap to Standing Indain loop and/or Grayson loop, heading across the Alpine Garden directly to Pinkham, and of course, hiking the BMT and Big Blue Trail and Tuscarora Trail and the Long Path and any other trail that is NOT the AT.
I don't think alternate trails would help much as most people I believe are more intertested in hiking the AT than they are in simply walking from Georgia to Maine.
I also cannot see a JMT scenario, limiting the parks visitors from 9 million a year to 200 a day, or what it is in Whitney area.
Anyway, the problem is shelter overcrowding, not trail overcrowding.
It is an artificial problem caused by a rule designed to group everyone in one palce, in other words, a rule that was designed to CREATE overcrowding.
Simply stop with the stupid only-use-shelters rule and let people camp. Put in tent platforms if you want and charge money. But stop overcrowding in shelters by dropping the requirement that everyone use one of the few shelters.
I'm starting my thru-hike in Troutville, Va. NB, in April 2008. Return to Troutville to finish SB in Springer. This is my small way of avoiding the crowds and their negative impact on the trail. Maybe this will help a little. Jumper
notorius tic
10-25-2007, 20:53
I took the russle fields trail down into GattlinMachineGunberg, and it was a horse trail that had great views, steep downs but, a scenic escape route.. from the weather. I also agree there are some great side trails that are harder to find, (not marked) that are spectacular.. Cant we all hike in peace for all mankind
I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I just used the word beautiful instead of spectacular. You said it.
Umm, no. Saying "the most spectacular views will always be on the AT" is NOT the same as saying that "the only good views" are on the AT.
Look the issue we're discussing is overcrowding on the AT, no? All I'm saying is that there's a very logical reason for that. Great views, easy access. Simple.
I am NOT discussing the alternatives to the AT. I'm all for blue-blazing.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 20:55
It depends on what your goal is.
Some people may want to walk from Georgia to Maine, but most folks want to hike the Appalachian Trail. That would preclude Taking the Freeman Trail around Blood, cutting off the Deep Gap to Standing Indain loop and/or Grayson loop, heading across the Alpine Garden directly to Pinkham, and of course, hiking the BMT and Big Blue Trail and Tuscarora Trail and the Long Path and any other trail that is NOT the AT.
I don't think alternate trails would help much as most people I believe are more intertested in hiking the AT than they are in simply walking from Georgia to Maine.
I also cannot see a JMT scenario, limiting the parks visitors from 9 million a year to 200 a day, or what it is in Whitney area.
Anyway, the problem is shelter overcrowding, not trail overcrowding.
It is an artificial problem caused by a rule designed to group everyone in one palce, in other words, a rule that was designed to CREATE overcrowding.
Simply stop with the stupid only-use-shelters rule and let people camp. Put in tent platforms if you want and charge money. But stop overcrowding in shelters by dropping the requirement that everyone use one of the few shelters.
Great point - but I don't see how it changes what the ATC could do to help the issue. It really isn't that hard. I think the only impedemet is tradition, and that is only for people that don't want to change tradition.
I'm starting my thru-hike in Troutville, Va. NB, in April 2008. Return to Troutville to finish SB in Springer. This is my small way of avoiding the crowds and their negative impact on the trail. Maybe this will help a little. Jumper
Sounds like a good plan. Before I decided to go the BMT, I was planning to jump around the Smokies and come back to it later when the crowds were gone.
I'm starting my thru-hike in Troutville, Va. NB, in April 2008. Return to Troutville to finish SB in Springer. This is my small way of avoiding the crowds and their negative impact on the trail. Maybe this will help a little. Jumper
I know someone that went Harpers Ferry --> Springer. Then Katahdin --> Harpers Ferry. Saw her near the Audie Murphy Monument and again in Monson. Now I work with her. Too cool.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 20:59
Umm, no. Saying "the most spectacular views will always be on the AT" is NOT the same as saying that "the only good views" are on the AT.
Look the issue we're discussing is overcrowding on the AT, no? All I'm saying is that there's a very logical reason for that. Great views, easy access. Simple.
I am NOT discussing the alternatives to the AT. I'm all for blue-blazing.
Well, in my experience sometimes the AT goes right past the great views without going there. I really, really don't think it always makes an effort to do that. Other trails don't always either. But I don't see any corner on the market the AT holds on going to the most spectacular places. It is just longer, so by default goes to more in the end. But if you want the option to see great places all the way, the AT often seems to avoid the some of the really cool spots, at least in my neck of the woods it does.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-25-2007, 21:00
Lets not forget other sights besides the views from balds. The best waterfalls in the Nantahallas are not on the AT (they are side trips off the BMT). But a half mile side trail off the BMT will get you to a great waterfall and swimming hole.Good point - the AT misses nearly all the great waterfalls in the areas it passes thru. There are way too many great waterfalls near the BMT for me to even begin to guess which one you are mentioning.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 21:02
The two I am thinking of right off the top are the upper and lower falls on Slickrock. In the Smokies you could add Abrams falls to the list. Or the Sinks. The Smokies AT is really boring when it comes to good waterfalls.
Rather than limit the number of thru-hikers, the GSMNP could always limit the number of "weekenders" to 4 per shelter on the AT in the month of April.
The Smokies AT is really boring when it comes to good waterfalls.
That's cause there ain't none. :cool:
Lone Wolf
10-25-2007, 21:06
Rather than limit the number of thru-hikers, the GSMNP could always limit the number of "weekenders" to 4 per shelter on the AT in the month of April.
BS. thru-hikers ain't special
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 21:08
That's cause there ain't none. :cool:
My point exactly. Sticking to the ridges ain't always the most interesting way to go. I often wonder why I am up on a ridge with no view when there is a great creek or something below. Getting on a ridge just to be on a ridge seems sort of silly.
generoll
10-25-2007, 21:10
I'd like to suggest that everyone is right, but that we are all looking at things from different viewpoints and missing others. The BMT through the Smokies is a great hike and even if it's a bit longer and steeper, it lets you tent instead of staying in a shelter. And that I suspect is the biggest issue. The social aspect of the trail is something we older folks tend to not recognize. Most if the hikers you will see during thru season are the same crowd you'd run into at any Spring Break hotspot. They WANT crowds and social interchange. Offering them a chance at solitude by hiking the BMT would probably not appeal to them. As far as I am concerned, switching over to the BMT at Fontana or starting on the BMT at Springer does not mean that you haven't earned true thru hiker status. Has anyone told you otherwise? I mean anyone that really knows or is in a position to determine who is and isn't a thruhiker.
The BMT is there so use it. If crowds are what you seek, then go for the AT. No regulation necessary.
My point exactly. Sticking to the ridges ain't always the most interesting way to go. I often wonder why I am up on a ridge with no view when there is a great creek or something below. Getting on a ridge just to be on a ridge seems sort of silly.
Maybe in 2008, more hikers will cross Fontana Dam, jump on the AT, get up to Little Shuckstack and catch the view, then hang a right on Sassafras Gap and jump on the BMT. They can always jump back on the AT by taking any number of side trails that head up to the ridge.
BS. thru-hikers ain't special
No one said they were. As it is "weekenders" have priority year round. This would help eliminate congestion. As mentioned, there's 800 miles of other trails weekenders could hike. And since the others need to apply for a permit this plan would be quite easy to implement.
MOWGLI - I'm interested: How does the permitting system for the JMT work with PCT thruhikers, and how would you envision it working if the PCT had the same draw in terms of numbers of thru attempts as the AT?
I think that, in fact, PCT thru-hikers have a similar deal on the JMT that AT thru-hikers do in the Smokies--they get a permit that allows them to pass through the parks without getting the rationed permits.
http://www.pcta.org//planning/before_trip/permits.asp
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 21:17
No one said they were. As it is "weekenders" have priority year round. This would help eliminate congestion. As mentioned, there's 800 miles of other trails weekenders could hike.
I still don't think weekenders are the issue and it surprises me that the solution keeps being "make the weekenders do something else". In the times I have been out on the AT during NOBO season, it is the thru-hikers crowding it up beyond capacity. Even if you limited weekenders to just 4, it wouldn't make a dent in the issue. The real solution is to open up other trails for thru-hikers and then let them know about the other cool places to go. Imagine going on the far west side of the Smokies around Cades Cove. You could see Abrams Falls, stop in Townsend for eats (without even hitching), see the Sinks, then climb up Lecont and/or chimney tops and hit the AT at Newfound gap to go to Charlie's Bunion. Then go down to the other side of the park on Sweat Heifer and explore those waters.
But since you have never heard of some of those places, you only get to hear about what the AT offers.
The PCT permit allows hikers to pass all areas that would normally need a permit and is gotten up front. Still, iif you make your presence known, Crater Lake will charge for a walk-in permit.
I think that, in fact, PCT thru-hikers have a similar deal on the JMT that AT thru-hikers do in the Smokies--they get a permit that allows them to pass through the parks without getting the rationed permits.
http://www.pcta.org//planning/before_trip/permits.asp
Marta, didn't you do the JMT this summer?
Pedaling Fool
10-25-2007, 21:24
Rather than limit the number of thru-hikers, the GSMNP could always limit the number of "weekenders" to 4 per shelter on the AT in the month of April.
Typical Thru-hiker elitest attitude.
Even if you limited weekenders to just 4, it wouldn't make a dent in the issue.
I've been through the Smokies twice in early April. IMO, eight spots left for through hikers would definitely help the problem.
But since you have never heard of some of those places, you only get to hear about what the AT offers.
I haven''t?
EAnderson
10-25-2007, 21:26
There may be no good solution to impact on the trail, though I like Sgt. Rocks BMT alternative.
One small thing that could help with overcrowding is for those of us who hike in the park to avoid the AT during the spring thru-hiker season. There will always be spring breakers and boy scouts in the spring, but I try to leave the trail alone until the push is over. Besides the flowers are usually better in the lower elevations until mid-May.
The Smoky Mountains Hiking Club, like many of their counterparts throughout the east, does alot of great volunteer work on the trail all year. All of us who enjoy the trail can go out and help clean and maintain it at no charge!
Typical Thru-hiker elitest attitude.
Most thru-hikers only use the AT through the Smokies during the month of April. I'm looking for solutions, what are you doing?
Jack Tarlin
10-25-2007, 21:29
Is anyone other than me amused at the title of this thread?
I mean get real..... "Regulating Thru-hikers"?
Regulating thru-hikers is right up there with herding cats.
I mean, lotsa luck, cuz it ain't gonna work.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 21:29
I've been through the Smokies twice in early April. IMO, eight spots left for through hikers would definitely help the problem.
Not by much. Spent the night a a few shelters where me and another guy were the only section hikers. Add 18 thru-hikers to that shelter and it was way beyond. Me and one thru stayed outside the shelter. As a weekender I tried to do my part. Only once on any of these nights were there more than 4 weekenders and I always elect to stay outside the shelter and let a thru take the space because I hate shelters. But Thrus are still packed in like sardines. And besides, the Section hikers have the reservations. Let the thru-hikers act like thru hikers and sleep in their tents.
I haven''t?
Not the literal you, the "you the hiker" in general.
Well, I'm not saying AT thru-hikers need to stick to the AT, but you know most of the purist will, regardless of "official" alternates. Having 10 camping outside the shelter is better than 18.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 21:37
Well, I'm not saying AT thru-hikers need to stick to the AT, but you know most of the purist will, regardless of "official" alternates. Having 10 camping outside the shelter is better than 18.
Get rid of some of the silly rules and I think it could help.
New rules:
1. A thru-hiker can go on any trail in the park and stay in any campsite or shelter without reservation and can self register at any one of the kiosks in the park.
2. A thru-hiker is defined as anyone hiking into the park from at least 50 miles outs (some of the long trails end in the Smokies now).
For the ATC...
A thru-hiker is defined as a person that hikes from Georgia to Maine (or the other way around) using the Appalachian Trail or other hiking trails that connect to it within the Appalachian Mountain Corridor.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-25-2007, 21:38
Hmmmm.... there are about 1000 NOBO who reach Fontana per an earlier post so we have about 900 hikers who go thru there in about 8 weeks (900 because I excluded the very early and very late starters) That is about 112 hikers per week split between 13 shelters - or 9 or 10 per shelter - mostly in shelters which have capacity of about 12.
A couple of years ago i had the opportunity to just hike around GSNP. I do not know where "Journalist" has been doing the necessary research to make the comments made, but it was not in the same Park I spent close to a month. Much more impact by day hikers and horse people than the AT thru hikers during the time I was there. And even with that, it was not overly negative on the trails. ONe must be able to back up such statements especially on such a site as this when the great majority know from experience just what real impact on the trail is.
Beware. and be truthful.
Is anyone other than me amused at the title of this thread?
I mean get real..... "Regulating Thru-hikers"?
Regulating thru-hikers is right up there with herding cats.
I mean, lotsa luck, cuz it ain't gonna work.
I donno. I'm definitely not in favor of regulation, but Fontana Dam is about as good a control point as you can have.
As a hiker, I chafe at regulation - unless a solid case has been made for it. As an American, I love my freedom. Especially the kind that backpacking offers.
But, if the resource (GSMNP) was being damaged by overuse from hikers, and that could be demonstrated by a study, I would probably favor some type of regulation. I would not put my own desire for an experience above protecting the park.
Just sayin...
I agree.
A thru-hiker is defined as a person that hikes from Georgia to Maine (or the other way around) using the Appalachian Trail or other hiking trails that connect to it within the Appalachian Mountain Corridor.
As far as I'm concerned it always has been. However, according to most including the ATC, being a 2000-miler has a stricter requirement.
Pedaling Fool
10-25-2007, 21:42
Most thru-hikers only use the AT through the Smokies during the month of April. I'm looking for solutions, what are you doing?
I don't have an answer, but I know keeping out non-thrus goes against the purpose of the AT. If anyone wants a trail in which thru-hikers have priority than they need to build a new trail, with private membership.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 21:47
I agree.
As far as I'm concerned it always has been. However, according to most including the ATC, being a 2000-miler has a stricter requirement.
That is part of what I think should change.
I don't have an answer, but I know keeping out non-thrus goes against the purpose of the AT. If anyone wants a trail in which thru-hikers have priority than they need to build a new trail, with private membership.
****, dope. Non thru-hikers have priority 12 months of the year. And I never said anything about keeping them out. It's OK to limit the number of thru-hikers in the shelters but not the other way around? Talk about elitism. :rolleyes:
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-25-2007, 21:52
Sly, non-thrus have to pre-register for shelter use. If it is full they can't go. They are already regulated.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 21:55
Yep. So add more regulations to the guys that already have it so the people with less regulation don't have to deal with them. That is elitist.
Sly, non-thrus have to pre-register for shelter use. If it is full they can't go. They are already regulated.
Yeah. They still have priority. During thru-hiker season non thrus have 8 spots out of 12. That the GSMNP allows thru-hikers self-register and to camp outside the shelter if it's full is the only privilege. There is no alternative to staying on the AT without backing them up at Fontana and that's not going to happen.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-25-2007, 22:00
Sly, you've hiked a lot of the trails with alternative routes. What do you think of the idea of the BMT being an official alternative corridor.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 22:02
Yeah. They still have priority. During thru-hiker season non thrus have 8 spots out of 12. That the GSMNP allows thru-hikers self-register and to camp outside the shelter if it's full is the only privilege. There is no alternative to staying on the AT without backing them up at Fontana and that's not going to happen.
Don't forget no need to stick to an itenerary and no need to have a reservation.
If I want to go to Icewater Springs, I have to call and get a reservation and may get denied. I have to make sure that I stop at a ranger station and drop off my permit, and I ain't supposed to stay outside the shelter even if I want to.
Sly, you've hiked a lot of the trails with alternative routes. What do you think of the idea of the BMT being an official alternative corridor.
I think it's a great idea!! However, I don't think it can be regulated to make a certain number take the official trail or the alternative. That said, if it was "official" would help alleviate the congestion. How much? Probably not all that much.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 22:04
I think it's a great idea!! However, I don't think it can be regulated to make a certain number take the official trail or the alternative. That said, if it was "official" it would help alleviate the congestion. How much? Probably not all that much.
As you seem to think a few weekenders leaving the AT will help, then a few Thru-hikers leaving the trail is mo' better.
That is part of what I think should change.
So how do we go about changing this notion of a hike from Katahdin to Springer as the only 'true hike'? I figure I've got one shot at hiking in some of these areas and I'd hate to think that I'm a slave to daily mileage or having to pass every blaze. I want to see the best that this corridor has to offer and do it on my schedule (long sections over a couple of years).
Tom
As you seem to think a few weekenders leaving the AT will help, then a few Thru-hikers leaving the trail is mo' better.
I have to agree. Both "solutions" would help more rather than either single solution.
So how do we go about changing this notion of a hike from Katahdin to Springer as the only 'true hike'? I figure I've got one shot at hiking in some of these areas and I'd hate to think that I'm a slave to daily mileage or having to pass every blaze. I want to see the best that this corridor has to offer and do it on my schedule (long sections over a couple of years).
Much less of a problem for section hikers -- assuming you can choose the dates of your hikes. Just time your hikes to be well away from the wave of NOBO thru-hikers and the public "in general." For example: hike in the fall, starting right after Labor Day.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 22:13
So how do we go about changing this notion of a hike from Katahdin to Springer as the only 'true hike'? I figure I've got one shot at hiking in some of these areas and I'd hate to think that I'm a slave to daily mileage or having to pass every blaze. I want to see the best that this corridor has to offer and do it on my schedule (long sections over a couple of years).
Tom
Well I'm going to hike the BMT staring in about 13 weeks. I'll do Springer to Davenport Gap on the BMT and then link up with the AT.
When I get done, I'll write out how I hiked on my 2,000 miler aplication and put exactly what I did and why I did it. Then I'll let the ATC decide whether to award me the certificate or not (I don't really need it anyway).
But if I make it, and then get the certificate. Then that will at least let people know that the ATC is cool with a BMT hike serving as part of a thru. Someone else may know more trails up the AT that they can do this with as well. But I figure we gotta start at the bottom.
I like that idea Rock. Sometime later, if you haven't already and you want to hike the official AT, it's a great section.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 22:22
LOL, I've hiked it. People keep saying that to me though.
minnesotasmith
10-25-2007, 22:24
its like tee times in golf....how far in advance could you schedule a send off time
A thruhiker's scheduling is completely unlike a weekender's. The latter can just drive up from Gatlinburg, having moteled there the night before, after flying/driving in from his home town. A thru can't tell you with certainity where he's going to be 3 days from now if he stays on the trail, not holding back his pace. The idea that reservations could be set up something like the way camping reservations are handled in Yellowstone, where they're all gone for the whole year shortly into January, would just kill legal thruhiking in the Smokies. You'll certainly have the Warren Doyles that will just ignore the regs and trespass on in, but many will simply bypass the Smokies altogether, or flip around it, coming back to it later in their hikes. This will IMO make completing a thruhike harder, to say nothing of not reducing impact for those thrus who still hike through the GSMNP, but are newly seriously inconvenienced in doing so.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-25-2007, 22:26
Now that the BMT is in place and the Great Eastern trail is nearly in place, I feel the time has come for the ATC to authorize alternative routes from between Springer and Maine. I'm sure there are other trails that become part of the AT corridor concept.
I've heard rumors that the ATC is considering this - anybody know if it is true? And if it is, how soon can we expect to see the change?
The ATC doesn't really care about thru-hiking in a single season but hiking the AT in total to get a 2000-miler recognition/certificate/patch. When you apply, don't tell them you've already hiked the southern section as that will qualify you.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 22:28
The ATC doesn't really care about thru-hiking in a single season but hiking the AT in total to get a 2000-miler recognition/certificate/patch. When you apply, don't tell them you've already hiked the southern section as that will qualify you.
I know. But I have intentionally skipped a very very small section (1.9 miles) in the Smokies where I can easily finish it later. I could do that for PT one morning - fast hike up and then turn around and run back down.
Appalachian Tater
10-25-2007, 22:28
Now that the BMT is in place and the Great Eastern trail is nearly in place, I feel the time has come for the ATC to authorize alternative routes from between Springer and Maine. I'm sure there are other trails that become part of the AT corridor concept.
I've heard rumors that the ATC is considering this - anybody know if it is true? And if it is, how soon can we expect to see the change?
They'll have to change their mission, which relates to the Appalachian Trail Corridor, unless the definition of a 2,000-miler is to include only trails in the corridor.
They really should just drop the whole 2,000-miler thing altogether.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 22:30
They'll have to change their mission, which relates to the Appalachian Trail Corridor, unless the definition of a 2,000-miler is to include only trails in the corridor.
Not really.
They really should just drop the whole 2,000-miler thing altogether.
LOL, now that is a good idea.
What if the ATC were to just drop the recognizing of 2,000 milers? They would save money by now having to pay for the paper used to create the certificates and applications, and more thru hikers might be willing to miss a section here and there, maybe I am mis-judging this though.
Kirby
I know. But I have intentionally skipped a very very small section (1.9 miles) in the Smokies where I can easily finish it later. I could do that for PT one morning - fast hike up and then turn around and run back down.
I know others that told them they skipped small sections for one reason or another and still got the 2000-miler patch. So, I suggest you withhold your southern AT hike altogether and just mention the BMT to see how it goes. You can always get the patch later if you desire.
SGT Rock
10-25-2007, 22:35
Sounds good Sly.
Appalachian Tater
10-25-2007, 22:40
What if the ATC were to just drop the recognizing of 2,000 milers? They would save money by now having to pay for the paper used to create the certificates and applications, and more thru hikers might be willing to miss a section here and there, maybe I am mis-judging this though.
Kirby
They only give out a few hundred certificates and use volunteer labor. They also send a rocker patch and tons of promotional literature and of course there is the postage. Still, I would bet that enough people join because of the promotional literature that the mailing pays for itself and then some.
Appalachian Tater
10-25-2007, 22:43
Just went through my mail. They're even offering 50% off the regular price of membership. $25 for individuals and $37 for families.
They only give out a few hundred certificates and use volunteer labor. They also send a rocker patch and tons of promotional literature and of course there is the postage. Still, I would bet that enough people join because of the promotional literature that the mailing pays for itself and then some.
You just said they should drop the idea. :rolleyes: If you stand by the above statement, why would they?
Just a Hiker
10-25-2007, 22:48
I don't think things are as bad as this "Journalist" person makes it out to be. I admit that the park is being "loved to death", but I don't think thru-hikers make things worse; and I certainly don't think thru-hikers make others miserable. Frankly, I think the lean-to situation has gotten better since those bear fences have started to come down. I admit it used to be depressing with 20 people packed into a lean-to on a rainy evening, but it's not so bad anymore since many of the lean-to have been renovated. This guy just wants to start trouble.
I'm not sure the patch or certificate is the end-all. It's the mere existence and magnitude of the trail that draws people to it. I must admit there's a draw and appeal to the purist angle as well. Anyway, my 2000 miler application is "in process" as we speak, and I must confess I didn't dare to speak of my blue-blaze transgressions.
Appalachian Tater
10-25-2007, 22:51
You just said they should drop the idea. :rolleyes: If you stand by the above statement, why would they?
They shouldn't, if you look at it through the normal American way of considering the financial economics only.
But I would hope that the ATC, as much as they need money and can put it to truly good use, would consider aspects of a stituation other than financial gain alone when making such a decision.
Actually, now that I'm actually reading my mail, the pitch is for the AMC, not the ATC. That figures!
Appalachian Tater
10-25-2007, 22:54
I'm not sure the patch or certificate is the end-all. It's the mere existence and magnitude of the trail that draws people to it. I must admit there's a draw and appeal to the purist angle as well. Anyway, my 2000 miler application is "in process" as we speak, and I must confess I didn't dare to speak of my blue-blaze transgressions.
If you have to sign your name to a lie to get a piece of paper saying you walked the A.T., what good is the piece of paper? Why would you want it? The certificate says you did something you didn't do. Or are you joking?
Don't worry terrapin, most of the blueblazes were official AT at one time or another. Only purist give a crap.
Don't worry terrapin, most of the blueblazes were official AT at one time or another.
I'm aware of that. I could see the painted-over blazes in a few places. I figure if they can't blaze the trail well enough to keep me on it, it's not my problem. ;)
AT-HITMAN2005
10-25-2007, 23:37
The Florida Trail officially goes both east and west of Lake Okeechobee.
it also splits to go around the metro orlando/central florida area, and reconnects in ocala national forest.
I'm interested: How does the permitting system for the JMT work with PCT thruhikers, and how would you envision it working if the PCT had the same draw in terms of numbers of thru attempts as the AT?
In addition to what I mentioned before, you can get a PCT permit from the PCTA for $5 or free for members. In order to qualify you need to hike at least 500 miles on the PCT. It covers you in areas that would otherwise require a permit if you were doing a shorter section. I don't think if you take the alternate 13 mile JMT section through the Sierras would be a problem but, you're also supposed to get a Mt Whitney stamp if you decide to climb the mountain, which may have an additional cost. Rangers will check from time to time and fine you if you don't have the proper permits.
In addition to what I mentioned before, you can get a PCT permit from the PCTA for $5 or free for members. In order to qualify you need to hike at least 500 miles on the PCT. It covers you in areas that would otherwise require a permit if you were doing a shorter section. I don't think if you take the alternate 13 mile JMT section through the Sierras would be a problem but, you're also supposed to get a Mt Whitney stamp if you decide to climb the mountain, which may have an additional cost. Rangers will check from time to time and fine you if you don't have the proper permits.
It does have an additional cost of 15 bucks for Whitney, which I paid, though I doubt many others did. I guess this is useful only if a ranger checks, which is about as likely as the Cubs winning a world series in my lifetime.
Doesn't seem rangers are out yet for the season when thru-hikers are going thru in mid-late june.
Doesn't seem rangers are out yet for the season when thru-hikers are going thru in mid-late june.
When I hiked the PCT the only places I got checked were northern Yosemite and the Desolation Wilderness. Later, when I went back out to hike the JMT, I probably got checked three times in the 1st 25 miles from Yosemite Valley to Toulemne Meadows. For advanced JMT permit (https://www.yosemitesecure.org/wildpermit/) reservations.
Those stats don't necessarily prove your point Deadeye. Of those nine million, how many are staying at the shelters? A better measure would be the number of permits issued to use the AT shelters, as these will be non thrus.
9 million visitors a year means hundreds of thousands in all the shelters every night all year. Oh my! :rolleyes:
Must be some really BIG shelters. :-?
9 million visitors a year means hundreds of thousands in all the shelters every night all year. Oh my! :rolleyes:
Must be some really BIG shelters. :-?
Well, all hiking season anyway. :D
Tennessee Viking
10-26-2007, 02:54
What about the supposed rumor that a natural resource group was asking the NPS to close the Smokies to road traffic for 10 years. Foot traffic would be restricted to a $30 entrance fee.
I would be very interested to know how many weekenders - of which I am very frequently one - come to the Smokies and hike the trail called "The AT" because of the panache associated with thruhiking versus those who somehow choose the AT trail over the myriad of other trails in the park for merits not associated with the fame and notoriety of the Appalachian Trail.
I would be very interested to know how many of those same weekenders actually know what a "thru hiker" is?!!
Since I hiked the AT through the park in 2003, I think I may have been convinced by this thread to take the BMT this time around in 2008. A chance to check out a different part of the park.
There are some great views from other places besides the AT in the Smokies, besides the AT in the Nantahalas, and besides the AT in other parts of the Appalachians. You have to find them though. I ain't going to make it easy :p
Saying the best views and the only good views are on the AT is sort of short sited. It is also hard to quantify "best" - there are great things to see in all sorts of places along these trails. Saying these are the best is in the eye of the beholder.
OK, just one really quick - find Wigg medow. You will love it. Hint - it isn't on the AT.
Take Cherohala Skyway (hwy 165) east approximately 24 miles. Continue past North Carolina border 1.5 miles to the bridge at Stratton Meadows. 100 yds. after the bridge turn left onto gravel and then turn left at fork and go under the Skyway. Drive about a mile and turn left on first road to the left, road 61. Take 61 about 5 miles to Whigg. The last 1/2 mile is deep gravel, you can park at a small lot on the left and walk up if you need to.
Walk in trail
The no gravel road method is to continue east on the Skyway past Stratton bridge a mile or two and park at Mud Gap on the right. Walk in on a 2 mile abandoned road that is fairly level, rough in some places.
:D:D:D
Take Cherohala Skyway (hwy 165) east approximately 24 miles. Continue past North Carolina border 1.5 miles to the bridge at Stratton Meadows. 100 yds. after the bridge turn left onto gravel and then turn left at fork and go under the Skyway. Drive about a mile and turn left on first road to the left, road 61. Take 61 about 5 miles to Whigg. The last 1/2 mile is deep gravel, you can park at a small lot on the left and walk up if you need to.
Walk in trail
The no gravel road method is to continue east on the Skyway past Stratton bridge a mile or two and park at Mud Gap on the right. Walk in on a 2 mile abandoned road that is fairly level, rough in some places.
:D:D:D
Whut do I win? :p
Marta, didn't you do the JMT this summer?
Yes. I took it nice and slow, July 25th-Aug. 15th. The weather was perfect. No bugs. No snow. No fording. A wonderful trip.
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?trailname=5865
Yes. I took it nice and slow, July 25th-Aug. 15th. The weather was perfect. No bugs. No snow. No fording. A wonderful trip.
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?trailname=5865
Damn, that's beautiful. I'm jealous. Note to self: must hike JMT some day.
Johnny Swank
10-26-2007, 08:35
From memory with a conversation with George Minnick, the AT get about 65% of all foot traffic in the park over the course of the year.
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 08:37
yes, but most of the 65% is probably from Newfound gap to Charlie's Bunion LOL.
A note on the ATC and their view of a 2,000 miler: In 2003 we came to the Piscataquis River in mid-October. The area had been flooded for days by both rains and snowmelt: we walked in ankle deep water the entire day leading up to our encounter with the river. At the river, we were absolutely stunned to see that it was about 50-75 yards wide, moving very rapidly and very very deep. One step into the river has us in water up to our upper thighs.
We deemed it completely impassable, found a forestry road and hiked into Monson. (We heard later that another hiker HAD tried to cross, and was swept a quarter mile down river).
On my AT application I wrote this, and the fact that I took a blue blaze around another peak in Maine during a blizzard. I did not go back and cover these bits of trail. I asked the ATC to make the determination as to whether I was a thruhiker, particularly because I did not know how stringent they wanted to be for their own records.
The AT representative - whose name currently escapes me - wrote back that the ATC was more concerned about the SPIRIT of walking the entire trail, that they did not endorse skipping large sections but that they were not overly anal (my term) about walking past every blaze. She confirmed that my hike met their definition of a thruhike, and left room for an even more generous interpretation of the rule.
Just an FYI - I think the ATC is not nearly as draconian in their definition of a thruhiker as many others in the hiking community. Had I known this fact, or now that I am a bit more expansive in my views and hiking experiences, I may have taken a different approach to the hike, and made sure I hiked the most scenic path and not the more defined one.
For most of us hiking the AT is a unique opportunity that is a once or twice in a lifetime event. I am all for maximizing that experience for everyone. Whether someone takes a blue blaze is a different concept that someone skipping New Jersey.
Yes. I took it nice and slow, July 25th-Aug. 15th. The weather was perfect. No bugs. No snow. No fording. A wonderful trip.
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?trailname=5865
No bugs? You sure it was the JMT you hiked? :D
Actually, I was expecting the bugs to be much worse than they were. I did the trail in August '06 (11th- 25th). I hear earlier in the season the bugs can be hellacious.
Just an FYI - I think the ATC is not nearly as draconian in their definition of a thruhiker as many others in the hiking community.
Correction. The ATC is not draconian about this in any sense.
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 08:47
I never really thought they were. But there are some here that say if you do skip sections and apply, you are a lire. That is basically going as far as assaulting some one's character over their hike.
yes, but most of the 65% is probably from Newfound gap to Charlie's Bunion LOL.
My point exactly: where else but the AT can you get that kind of bang-for-the buck (beautiful views with little effort) ? Isn't this the heart of the problem?
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 09:02
Not really. There are other places in the Appalachians where you can get to that are closer to the road with cool views. Chimney Rock for example.
sherrill
10-26-2007, 09:09
I'd like to congratulate journalist - by only the third post he/she has sparked quite a conversation. I suspected just a troll post but thankfully it has evolved into a good debate on other trails.
I've hiked for over 30 years in the NC/VA/GA/TN mtns and did the AT all the way once. I love the AT but some of my best times on trails was on other ones.
No bugs? You sure it was the JMT you hiked? :D
Yes.:D I'm pretty sure the signs said Yosemite at one end and Mt. Whitney at the other. And I carried a head net, rain jacket, rain pants, and pack cover the entire way, and didn't need any of them.
One of the people I hiked with had talked to someone who hiked a month earlier this year. They were nearly eaten alive in some places.
At The Gathering I looked at G-Force's JMT pictures from 2006. I was astonished at how much snow they had to go through, and how deep the fords were, compared to this year.
I love the AT but some of my best times on trails was on other ones.
Absolutely agree. I see the AT is sort of a framework for a lifetime's worth of hiking. Never did do the AT in one go, but between my AT sections there have been countless other awesome adventures.
But there are some here....
Names, dammit! I want names! :D
Frosty's post (#80) pretty much sums up the whole discussion for me. Actually, his first sentence is enough:
"It depends on what your goal is".
At The Gathering I looked at G-Force's JMT pictures from 2006. I was astonished at how much snow they had to go through, and how deep the fords were, compared to this year.
I hiked with G-Force a bit on the AT in 2000. I didn't see him on the JMT last year. BY mid-August, the snow had melt for the most part. The longest snow field we walked through was perhaps a couple hundred yards. No more. The fords weren't all that bad either.
The worst place for bugs on my hike? Just after we entered the Ansel Adams Wilderness. That place was still paradise, even with the bugs!
I hiked with G-Force a bit on the AT in 2000. I didn't see him on the JMT last year. BY mid-August, the snow had melt for the most part. The longest snow field we walked through was perhaps a couple hundred yards. No more. The fords weren't all that bad either.
The worst place for bugs on my hike? Just after we entered the Ansel Adams Wilderness. That place was still paradise, even with the bugs!
I think he was a few weeks ahead of you on the JMT.
I lied when I said there were NO bugs. I saw at least two mosquitoes.;)
What about the supposed rumor that a natural resource group was asking the NPS to close the Smokies to road traffic for 10 years. Foot traffic would be restricted to a $30 entrance fee.
According to the stipulation made by the Rockefellers when they donated money for half the GSMNP (NC/TN residents ponied up the other half) the Park shall remain ever free to visitors.
Is anyone other than me amused at the title of this thread?
I mean get real..... "Regulating Thru-hikers"?
At first, I thought the thread was about the "trekker trots" and the need for more fiber in the thru-hiker diet....
If the powers-that-be in GSMNP really wanted to do something about the crowds at shelters along the AT in the Park, they could do so fairly easily:
ALLOW TENT CAMPING AT APPROPRIATE PLACES IN BETWEEN THOSE SHELTERS! Establish some pre-hardened tentsites, with pulleys for food storage, and perhaps a privy at each cluster of tentsites.
These could be available to hikers on the same basis as shelters are now.
A
The AT representative - whose name currently escapes me - wrote back that the ATC was more concerned about the SPIRIT of walking the entire trail, that they did not endorse skipping large sections but that they were not overly anal (my term) about walking past every blaze. She confirmed that my hike met their definition of a thruhike, and left room for an even more generous interpretation of the rule.
.
That's what I have been saying for years:
The ATC recongnizes the corridor approach (ala the PCT/CDT/other trails) as a "valid" way to hike the AT...just not in its official literature.
If the BMT is recongnized as an "official alterntate", the corridor approach will be official as well as de facto.
If I do the AT again, I be all for taking the BMT. Heck, I may do a BMT thru-hike at some point. (I don't think I'd apply for an AT certificate at this point, though.)
I don't think adding tent sites between shelters would to the park justice or is necessary, since the over crowding is in a relatively short amount of time. It would be better to do nothing.
If the powers-that-be in GSMNP really wanted to do something about the crowds at shelters along the AT in the Park, they could do so fairly easily:
ALLOW TENT CAMPING AT APPROPRIATE PLACES IN BETWEEN THOSE SHELTERS! Establish some pre-hardened tentsites, with pulleys for food storage, and perhaps a privy at each cluster of tentsites.
These could be available to hikers on the same basis as shelters are now.
There are all kinds of backcountry campsites in the Smokies already. There is no budget and IMO no need to create any additional campsites.
A brief look at the map of the Smokies shows any number of campsites just off of the AT.
Campsite 25 is about 1 mile west of Russell Field Shelter
Campsite 23 is about 1 mile west of Spence Field
Campsite 24 is 1 mile east of Spence Field
Campsite 22 is 1 mile east of the AT near Rocky Top
That's just a 3-4 mile section of the AT in the Smokies. If you want to tent camp, you can do so away from shelters. It'll simply require you to walk off the trail a bit. That's easy at the end of the day. In most cases, you'll have to climb out of the campsite in the AM.
journalist
10-26-2007, 10:36
A couple of years ago i had the opportunity to just hike around GSNP. I do not know where "Journalist" has been doing the necessary research to make the comments made, but it was not in the same Park I spent close to a month. Much more impact by day hikers and horse people than the AT thru hikers during the time I was there. And even with that, it was not overly negative on the trails. ONe must be able to back up such statements especially on such a site as this when the great majority know from experience just what real impact on the trail is.
Beware. and be truthful.
you hiked around the smokies a couple of years ago? that's great. you're an experts. i hike in the smokies all the time. thru-hikers go through the smokies in waves. if gangs of boy scouts were doing it, there'd be great outrage. thru-hikers are allowed to tent when the shelter is full. that's the main impact. we should force them to spread out. and don't get me started on horses.
journalist
10-26-2007, 10:37
If the powers-that-be in GSMNP really wanted to do something about the crowds at shelters along the AT in the Park, they could do so fairly easily:
ALLOW TENT CAMPING AT APPROPRIATE PLACES IN BETWEEN THOSE SHELTERS! Establish some pre-hardened tentsites, with pulleys for food storage, and perhaps a privy at each cluster of tentsites.
These could be available to hikers on the same basis as shelters are now.
no. no. no. that would only add to the impact.
Just a Hiker
10-26-2007, 10:41
no. no. no. that would only add to the impact.
It's just as good as your Bulls**t solution!:rolleyes:
Just Jim
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 10:41
Names, dammit! I want names! :D
Just check out some of the threads here like this one: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4544&page=11
And see how many times the word lie (or lire) gets used.
It's just as good as your Bulls**t solution!:rolleyes:
Which is to say NOT very good.
journalist
10-26-2007, 10:46
This guy just wants to start trouble.
i'm just proposing a way to protect a precious natural treasure from great gangs of yahoos whose little adventure is causing problems.
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 10:47
Hell, if thru-hikers need more freedom to spread out, why not just allow thru-hikers to camp anywhere within sight of the AT except within 50' of a water source?
My guess is because most of them want a shelter space anyway LOL.
Letting in 15 hikers a day for 6 straight months would only allow 2700 hikers through... probably the amount of thru hikers still on the trail at that point. So, most through hikers would have to skip ahead past the Smokies to be able to actually do their thruhike or else be caught waiting for up to six months at the entrance to the park.
Bad, bad idea.
Pedaling Fool
10-26-2007, 10:48
you hiked around the smokies a couple of years ago? that's great. you're an experts. i hike in the smokies all the time. thru-hikers go through the smokies in waves. if gangs of boy scouts were doing it, there'd be great outrage. thru-hikers are allowed to tent when the shelter is full. that's the main impact. we should force them to spread out. and don't get me started on horses.
I've been through GSMNP twice, so I'll concede I'm not an expert. However, I don't believe the hiker impact is as bad as you may perceive. The impact is contained to a relatively small area (the corridor), there are vast areas in which no one ever steps foot on.
As for shelters, I believe, most are on the AT; should shelters be erected along all the other trails?
The horse issue is, IMO, the real issue WRT erosion. Not many other parts of the AT have those deep, dug-out like gullies as is found through GSMNP.
journalist
10-26-2007, 10:51
Letting in 15 hikers a day for 6 straight months would only allow 2700 hikers through... probably the amount of thru hikers still on the trail at that point. So, most through hikers would have to skip ahead past the Smokies to be able to actually do their thruhike or else be caught waiting for up to six months at the entrance to the park.
Bad, bad idea.
it's a bad idea if the goal is to let tens of thousands of people hike the a.t. end-to-end every year. that's not my goal. i'm sure a bunch of hikers would skip ahead. that's great.
Just a Hiker
10-26-2007, 10:55
i'm just proposing a way to protect a precious natural treasure from great gangs of yahoos whose little adventure is causing problems.
Is it the Smoky's you are trying to protect, or do you just have a problem with Thru-hikers? These "Gangs of Yahoo's" you reference have the right to be there just as much as you or anyone else. This is America pal!! :banana
Just Jim
Lone Wolf
10-26-2007, 10:57
Is it the Smoky's you are trying to protect, or do you just have a problem with Thru-hikers? These "Gangs of Yahoo's" you reference have the right to be there just as much as you or anyone else. This is America pal!! :banana
Just Jim
then they should get reservations like everyone else
i'm just proposing a way to protect a precious natural treasure from great gangs of yahoos whose little adventure is causing problems.
You're not serious about calling thru-hikers 'gangs of yahoos' and a thru-hike a 'little adventure' are you?
Why are they getting the brunt of your ire? Did one piss on your tires?
Apologies for my silly comment, but your post deserves it.
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 10:59
Think of it like prohibition. Tighter rules just made people living like they always have into criminals.
In this case tighter rules just make the AT through the Smokies a more miserable place. The solution could be less rules to fix this issue.
then they should get reservations like everyone else
Yeah sure LW. Back them up to Springer. Reservations at ALL shelters! :rolleyes:
journalist
10-26-2007, 11:00
Is it the Smoky's you are trying to protect, or do you just have a problem with Thru-hikers? These "Gangs of Yahoo's" you reference have the right to be there just as much as you or anyone else. This is America pal!! :banana
Just Jim
you're right, it's america. so let's get rid of all the rules. no more permits. no more reservations. let anybody do anything they want to do in the park. ride around on ATVs. leave trash everywhere. hell, let's just clear-cut the damn smokies and be done with it. who needs rules? yeeeee-haaaaaaa!
Lone Wolf
10-26-2007, 11:01
You're not serious about calling thru-hikers 'gangs of yahoos' and a thru-hike a 'little adventure' are you?
Why are they getting the brunt of your ire? Did one piss on your tires?
Apologies for my silly comment, but your post deserves it.
he's not far off. i live in a trail town and "gangs of yahoos" do come through here thinkin' they're "little adventure" is biggest thing since sliced bread.
Typical Thru-hiker elitest attitude.
I'm not a thru-hiker and I think limiting weekenders during peak thru season is a legitimate option. Anyone's free to disagree, but in no way do I see this as an 'us vs. them', but rather a realistic view of what the situation is and is likely to continue to be.
Just a Hiker
10-26-2007, 11:03
then they should get reservations like everyone else
I'll make a reservation......I know how to use a phone and I can spell my own tweedling name! I have never felt thru-hikers deserve special treatment for anything, mainly because nobody is holding a gun to their head making them hike the AT. However, I don't think thru-hikers should get scatted on either.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-26-2007, 11:04
That's what I have been saying for years:
The ATC recognizes the corridor approach (ala the PCT/CDT/other trails) as a "valid" way to hike the AT...just not in its official literature.
If the BMT is recognized as an "official alternate", the corridor approach will be official as well as de facto.It sounds like the ATC has the ability to take the strain off the overused AT in north GA, thru the GSMNP and the SNP easily and without much effort. Recognize the corridor approach as valid in the literature and get the word out via websites such as this one. Many hikers would willingly and gratefully use the BMT in North GA and to bypass the GSMNP if this was done. Others will likely opt to use the Great Eastern trail and other trails in heavily used areas.
This is a win-win situation. Weekenders will have a more enjoyable experience on what was once the only official route - and a more enjoyable experience generally results in more willingness to give $$ and time to preserve a resource. Underutilized trails (the BMT, Great Eastern, etc.) will benefit from greater exposure - exposure that will likely generate more $$ and volunteers for those trails. All hikers - thru, section and weekenders - and the environment will benefit from the hikers being spread over a larger area and being able to avoid the overcrowding in the spring on the southern portion of the AT.
journalist
10-26-2007, 11:06
You're not serious about calling thru-hikers 'gangs of yahoos' and a thru-hike a 'little adventure' are you?
Why are they getting the brunt of your ire? Did one piss on your tires?
Apologies for my silly comment, but your post deserves it.
i don't have anything against any individual thru-hiker. it's the great mass migration of thru-hikers every year that gripes me. and everybody gives them a free pass to do as they please. all the rest of the hikers have to phone ahead and get reservations and fill out permits, etc. thru-hikers just march right through hogging the space and slinging their stuff around. it's annoying. as i said before, nobody would let the boy scouts or any other kind of club do anything like that. thru-hikers are special for some reason. i think the trail community needs to readjust its thinking about thru-hiking.
Deep breath everyone. This is all hypothetical. It was a good discussion. Lets get back to that.
If you need to chill, stream the album at the following link. That should do it! http://www.robertplantalisonkrauss.com/site.php
The GET is a little far off if you're hiking the AT. Does it ever share a corridor or cross?
Every spring a great glob of thru-hikers goes through the Smokies. They make things miserable for everyone and, as a group, probably cause the largest negative impact to the Smokies in any given year. Here is my solution: restrict the number of thru-hikers allowed into the park each day. I suggest 12 as a good number. You could let four go to Mollies, four to Russell and four to Spence, and that's it each day. You greatly lessen the impact by spreading everybody out. You could park a ridgerunner down at the Fontana entrance to hand out permits. This is a great idea, right?
Either you're an idiot, or a real journalist with a wry method of getting inside the hiker head.
I am part of the weekender 'glob' that thinks it might be a better idea to preserve the AT part of the trail for thru hikers only.
i don't have anything against any individual thru-hiker. it's the great mass migration of thru-hikers every year that gripes me. and everybody gives them a free pass to do as they please. all the rest of the hikers have to phone ahead and get reservations and fill out permits, etc. thru-hikers just march right through hogging the space and slinging their stuff around. it's annoying. as i said before, nobody would let the boy scouts or any other kind of club do anything like that. thru-hikers are special for some reason. i think the trail community needs to readjust its thinking about thru-hiking.
Poor baby. :p You have 10-11 other months in the year where you wouldn't even see a thru-hiker. Grow the **** up. :mad:
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 11:11
I was wondering what sort of journalist doesn't use capitalization LOL.
Troll journalism maybe.
warraghiyagey
10-26-2007, 11:13
i'm just proposing a way to protect a precious natural treasure from great gangs of yahoos whose little adventure is causing problems.
IF I'm on a SOBO thru and happen to be hiking alone am I a single yahoo. Or do I have the benefit of not being a yahoo simply because I choose to hike alone. Does the fact I'm in the middle of a hopeful thru-hike mean I have to have a derogatory comment attached to the entirety of the person I am.
I've said it before, when you start attaching derogatory labels to people you moot any point you would have been trying to make simply through the act of insulting people, usually people you've never met.
Pedaling Fool
10-26-2007, 11:14
I'm not a thru-hiker and I think limiting weekenders during peak thru season is a legitimate option. Anyone's free to disagree, but in no way do I see this as an 'us vs. them', but rather a realistic view of what the situation is and is likely to continue to be.
I just don't think the problem is as bad as we are making it out to be. However, I think Sgt Rock's idea is outstanding, I'm not sure how it will effect the crowds through the GSMNP AT corridor, but it's a first major step in refocusing the AT community on hiking-your-own-hike. It would also take away from all this talk about setting records and the such. Whatever happened to enjoying nature?
Deep breath everyone. This is all hypothetical. It was a good discussion. Lets get back to that.
If you need to chill, stream the album at the following link. That should do it!
I'm already listening to these guys.
(http://www.myspace.com/waywordsons)
I'm already listening to these guys.
(http://www.myspace.com/waywordsons)
Nice. Maybe I should go to Denver and walk to their hometown to check 'em out! ;)
Hell, if thru-hikers need more freedom to spread out, why not just allow thru-hikers to camp anywhere within sight of the AT except within 50' of a water source? . . .
That would be my preference, too...a situation very much like SNP's. However, knowing how they have this need (or desire) to regulate precisely where people camp in GSMNP, I brought up the idea of established tentsites along the AT corridor to reduce use of the shelters.
In either case, reducing use of shelters would be accomplished by some form of legalized primitive camping along the AT in between shelters.
I know many (most?) thru-hikers shoot for the shelters, but some of us do just the opposite by choice. It would be nice to be able to camp away from shelters along the AT without risking a citation from the Park. Those of us who would opt for the non-shelter experience would therefore contribute to the de-population at the shelters.
he's not far off. i live in a trail town and "gangs of yahoos" do come through here thinkin' they're "little adventure" is biggest thing since sliced bread.
You probably see a lot of good folks, too, right? Lots of young folks thru hike because they can, and to them, it is the biggest thing in their life, and probably has been since before they got on the trail. No doubt that a lot of these young people haven't learned what respect is and most likely will learn a bit about it while they're on the trail - by trial and error, through the hiker community.
Did I miss an important announcement?
When did ATC declare the BMT an "official alternate" to the AT? This would be first-of-its-kind, wouldn't it?
generoll
10-26-2007, 11:25
Skyline, I kinda get the idea that people (myself included) are suggesting that the BMT should be offered as an alternative to the AT as a means of reducing overcrowding and campsite overuse. No important announcments yet.
Nice. Maybe I should go to Denver and walk to their hometown to check 'em out! ;)
They played three times at the Bristol’s Rhythm and Roots Reunion last month. I saw them once there and once in Durango earlier this year.
Did I miss an important announcement?
When did ATC declare the BMT an "official alternate" to the AT? This would be first-of-its-kind, wouldn't it?
They didn't.
you're right, it's america. so let's get rid of all the rules. no more permits. no more reservations. let anybody do anything they want to do in the park. ride around on ATVs. leave trash everywhere. hell, let's just clear-cut the damn smokies and be done with it. who needs rules? yeeeee-haaaaaaa!
I cant tell if you don't like thruhikers, if you don't like people or if you are just fond of drugs.
For all of the angst here, I have yet to see any consensus that thruhikers are more damaging than regular hikers, horses or any other group.
Thruhikers ARE undertaking a trip that requires a bit more logistical support than the average hiker, as recognized by many groups and agencies.
i don't have anything against any individual thru-hiker. it's the great mass migration of thru-hikers every year that gripes me. and everybody gives them a free pass to do as they please. all the rest of the hikers have to phone ahead and get reservations and fill out permits, etc. thru-hikers just march right through hogging the space and slinging their stuff around. it's annoying. as i said before, nobody would let the boy scouts or any other kind of club do anything like that. thru-hikers are special for some reason. i think the trail community needs to readjust its thinking about thru-hiking.
Well, think about the problem a little bit. Is the mass of hikers something that GSMNP should deal with, or should the ATC be handing out permits at Springer?
Fact is the boy scouts do get away with similar things, but not all of them, just like not all thru hikers are guilty of being insensitive to those who have reservations at the shelters.
journalist
10-26-2007, 11:37
I cant tell if you don't like thruhikers, if you don't like people or if you are just fond of drugs.
For all of the angst here, I have yet to see any consensus that thruhikers are more damaging than regular hikers, horses or any other group.
Thruhikers ARE undertaking a trip that requires a bit more logistical support than the average hiker, as recognized by many groups and agencies.
every national park, wilderness area and national forest prohibits groups of more than eight hikers. there's a reason for that. yet thru-hikers are traveling, effectively, in groups of 20 and 30 or more and no one bats an eye because they're supposedly on some kind of great adventure. i like the idea of providing alternative routes particularly in the south when the thru-hikers crowds are biggest. coupled with my permit system at fontana, that should work really well. problem solved.
Did I miss an important announcement?
When did ATC declare the BMT an "official alternate" to the AT? This would be first-of-its-kind, wouldn't it?
IF the ATC declares it an "official alternate". There have been rumors. Nothing concrete....yet. It would be a first indeed.
he's not far off. i live in a trail town and "gangs of yahoos" do come through here thinkin' they're "little adventure" is biggest thing since sliced bread.
LW, you're sounding and behaving just like WF. An ex-serial-wannabe thru-hiker who's had his fill and now scats on (and makes rules for) anyone else hoping to do what he did, multiple times, in his better days.
Note to Journalist:
There is MUCH more to the Smokies than the AT. I suggest you pack a tent next time and explore some of the lesser visited parts of the park. You'll have all the room you could possibly want or need, and hardly a thru-hiker in site.
Problem solved.
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 11:42
Well the rumor was started by an official from the ATC at the BMT grand opening. I think Mowgli has direct quote somewhere.
Anyway, opening up the definition of the corridore and 2000 miler status and thru hiking is simpler and cheaper than staging a ranger at Fontana to announce T times for hikers.
Did I miss an important announcement?
When did ATC declare the BMT an "official alternate" to the AT? This would be first-of-its-kind, wouldn't it?
I just can't imagine this happening.
journalist
10-26-2007, 11:47
Note to Journalist:
There is MUCH more to the Smokies than the AT. I suggest you pack a tent next time and explore some of the lesser visited parts of the park. You'll have all the room you could possibly want or need, and hardly a thru-hiker in site.
Problem solved.
that's a little condescending, isn't it? it's not solving the problem to tell me to go elsewhere to make way for the mobs of thru-hikers. excuse me, but i happen to like hiking on the a.t. in the springtime.
warraghiyagey
10-26-2007, 11:48
every national park, wilderness area and national forest prohibits groups of more than eight hikers. there's a reason for that. yet thru-hikers are traveling, effectively, in groups of 20 and 30 or more and no one bats an eye because they're supposedly on some kind of great adventure. i like the idea of providing alternative routes particularly in the south when the thru-hikers crowds are biggest. coupled with my permit system at fontana, that should work really well. problem solved.
Problem solved? Really. Wow you did that in such a neat and tidy way. Oh except you've ignored countless facets of hiking, thru hiking, thru hikers and people who dream of a hike or thru hike on the AT that has nothing to do with whether they happen to find themselves in a group. And more accurately, has nothing to do with you.
While there have been good ideas brought up here in how to alleviate issues with hikers bunching up, the whole concept of regulating thru hikers is repugnant.
It seems this is more about you disliking thru hikers and not seeing them as individuals who have a dream and are living it.
There are millions of sites on the web whose topic you might find less offensive. Go find them and enjoy what makes you happy. Follow your Bliss. Or you can stay here and piss on others who simply want to talk about hiking the Appalachian Trail.
Pedaling Fool
10-26-2007, 11:49
I just can't imagine this happening.
Isn't change a good thing!
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 11:50
I did a little searching to see if I could find the transcripts of the speeches. I couldn't find the exact wording. But Morgan Sommerville of the ATC was one of the speakers. He said that he hoped that 2000-miler status would be granted for those that choose to take the BMT route inside Great Smoky Mountains National Park. That was July 2005.
journalist
10-26-2007, 11:51
It seems this is more about you disliking thru hikers and not seeing them as individuals who have a dream and are living it.
There are millions of sites on the web whose topic you might find less offensive. Go find them and enjoy what makes you happy. Follow your Bliss. Or you can stay here and piss on others who simply want to talk about hiking the Appalachian Trail.
you see, this is the problem. whenever anybody raises this issue, thru-hikers get all upset and bothered and start casting aspersions. they are unable to rationally discuss the issue. therefore, no progress is made.
Well the rumor was started by an official from the ATC at the BMT grand opening. I think Mowgli has direct quote somewhere.
Anyway, opening up the definition of the corridore and 2000 miler status and thru hiking is simpler and cheaper than staging a ranger at Fontana to announce T times for hikers.
Permitting also wouldn't effectively lessen the impact. You'd still have X amount of hikers traveling through, just at intervals. Besides using the BMT, I still think that the GSMNP should take fewer reservations during the month of April. Weekenders can either explore other parts of the park or wait until another time of year to hike the AT.
warraghiyagey
10-26-2007, 11:54
LW, you're sounding and behaving just like WF. An ex-serial-wannabe thru-hiker who's had his fill and now scats on (and makes rules for) anyone else hoping to do what he did, multiple times, in his better days.
Wow, I didn't know Wolf was a wannabe thru. My impression is the man has completed thrus and knows what he knows accordingly. Lot's of people with opinions here that don't have that experience.
Wolf, is that true? Are you a wannabe thru. Or an ex-serial-wannabe thru. Damn, all this time I thought you were the real deal. My most gracious thanks to Terrapin for pointing out this fraud.
Terrapin moots any point he could have made once again though the venue of insult. Yuck.
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 11:57
Permitting also wouldn't effectively lessen the impact. You'd still have X amount of hikers traveling through, just at intervals. Besides using the BMT, I still think that the GSMNP should take fewer reservations during the month of April. Weekenders can either explore other parts of the park or wait until another time of year to hike the AT.
I'm of the opinion that a hiker is a hiker. They shouldn't change the plan just for thru-hikers in that respect. I think what would be more better is to expand the routes for thru-hikers (not just AT thru-hikers) and make the same shelter/campsite reservation policy consistent throughout the park.
If someone is thru-hiking the BMT, MST, or other trails I may not be aware of that come from outside the park - then the same policy could apply to them. And, since there are multiple ways to traverse the park, having one thru-hiker policy across the park (instead of just on the AT) would also be a good idea.
Isn't change a good thing!
Sometimes... :rolleyes:. I don't have an inside track on ATC's official mindset but ISTM their concern (rightly) is more about the trail than about hiking. And in this case, the trail is unambiguous: there is only one AT. Not being religious about it; in fact, I think the ATC's silence such matters is primarily to avoid such religious topics.
Rock's idea is to "define" the problem away. Not sure if that will work, but then again, politicians nowadays try it all the time. Will potential thru-hikers use the BMT just because they're "allowed" to? I dunno.
that's a little condescending, isn't it? it's not solving the problem to tell me to go elsewhere to make way for the mobs of thru-hikers. excuse me, but i happen to like hiking on the a.t. in the springtime.
It's actually not condescending. Expecting everyone else to change so that you can have what you want is unreasonable. If you're looking to experience the park and avoid crowds and thru-hikers, I offered a reasonable solution. If you are dead set on going back to the AT in springtime, how bad could this alleged "problem" be?
Pedaling Fool
10-26-2007, 12:01
you see, this is the problem. whenever anybody raises this issue, thru-hikers get all upset and bothered and start casting aspersions. they are unable to rationally discuss the issue. therefore, no progress is made.
Why is it you believe that thru-hikers are destroying GSMNP? Is it only the issue of them tenting when there is not enough shelter space? Can you accurately list the number of THs that tent each year, it can't be many, since most would rather sleep in the shelters. Again, I think horses do far more damage, as to make any hiker impact insignificant - with the possible exception of the damage caused by the extensive "mine fields" laid out as a result of the lack of privies. Controlling hiker departure time will not correct any of those issues.
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 12:01
LW, you're sounding and behaving just like WF. An ex-serial-wannabe thru-hiker who's had his fill and now scats on (and makes rules for) anyone else hoping to do what he did, multiple times, in his better days.
Wow, I didn't know Wolf was a wannabe thru. My impression is the man has completed thrus and knows what he knows accordingly. Lot's of people with opinions here that don't have that experience.
Wolf, is that true? Are you a wannabe thru. Or an ex-serial-wannabe thru. Damn, all this time I thought you were the real deal. My most gracious thanks to Terrapin for pointing out this fraud.
Terrapin moots any point he could have made once again though the venue of insult. Yuck.
I gotta agree with warraghiyagey, you sort of shoot yourself in the foot by saying that stuff about Wolf. He is the exact oposite of what you try to characterize him as. His posting history speaks of that in volumes.
Pennsylvania Rose
10-26-2007, 12:03
I agree wholeheartedly with the corridor approach. Since I've already hiked Springer - Erwin during thru hiker season, and the older I get the less appealing dealing with the masses is, I may follow Rock's lead and take the BMT when I thru.
Ironically, when we did a loop in the Smokies this April we used a few miles of the AT and camped at Birch Springs. Saw a bunch of thruhikers while we rested just north of Shuckstack, but we were the only ones at Birch Springs that night.
every national park, wilderness area and national forest prohibits groups of more than eight hikers. there's a reason for that. yet thru-hikers are traveling, effectively, in groups of 20 and 30 or more and no one bats an eye because they're supposedly on some kind of great adventure. i like the idea of providing alternative routes particularly in the south when the thru-hikers crowds are biggest. coupled with my permit system at fontana, that should work really well. problem solved.
Why are thru hikers not on some great adventure? Isn't this the purpose of a 2000-mile trail?
I'm glad you're pleased with your proposal. I suggest you contact the proper authorities to implement it to see what other things you haven't thought of because your disdain for thru hikers prevents you from doing so.
Note to Journalist:
There is MUCH more to the Smokies than the AT. I suggest you pack a tent next time and explore some of the lesser visited parts of the park. You'll have all the room you could possibly want or need, and hardly a thru-hiker in site.
Problem solved.
I 2nd that. I have hiked/camped and never saw another person on the trail.
You get a 1/2 mile down any trail close to a road and you very rarely see anyone. You hardly ever see folks pulled over for those Quiet Walkways along the roads. I have stopped at some of them just to get out of the traffic for a while
Terrapin moots any point he could have made once again though the venue of insult. Yuck.
No insult. It's the truth. LW knows what I'm talking about. LW's done many thousands of miles on the AT, but (AFAIK) doesn't consider himself a thru-hiker. Whatever - that's beside the point.
The point is, like WF, he's been all over the trail, multiple times. He's done many or most of the same things that "typical" thru-hikers do, and yet stands in stern judgement of those folks who are doing it for the first time. As if he'd never been there or done that.
Everyone should hike where ever and when ever they want to hike. And everyone should call the resulting walk anything they wish. If you want a certificate and a patch from ATC calling you a 2,000 miler, it's still my recommendation that you tell ATC what you did and I suspect that if you didn't take too many rides north, they will send you that patch and list you in tiny type once in their magazine -- assuming, of course, that ATC continues the practice of listing the names of claimed thru hikers and 2000-milers. The old editor reported that officials used to complain about wasting all that valuable magazine space to satisfy the egos of 400 of their 40,000 members.
Weary
Lone Wolf
10-26-2007, 12:07
LW, you're sounding and behaving just like WF. An ex-serial-wannabe thru-hiker who's had his fill and now scats on (and makes rules for) anyone else hoping to do what he did, multiple times, in his better days.
wingfoot stopped hiking in 92. i still hike every year. i have never liked thru-hiker types even when i was one
I gotta agree with warraghiyagey, you sort of shoot yourself in the foot by saying that stuff about Wolf. He is the exact oposite of what you try to characterize him as. His posting history speaks of that in volumes.
I'm familiar with LW's posting history, Rock. LW knows what I'm talking about. I've probably known LW longer than most on this list.
I'm of the opinion that a hiker is a hiker. They shouldn't change the plan just for thru-hikers in that respect.
They could change the plan and no one (weekender) would ever know. ;) I think the point of this thread is over crowding. This plan would help alleviate it. But since I'm repeating myself I'll bow out.
Lone Wolf
10-26-2007, 12:09
Wow, I didn't know Wolf was a wannabe thru. My impression is the man has completed thrus and knows what he knows accordingly. Lot's of people with opinions here that don't have that experience.
Wolf, is that true? Are you a wannabe thru. Or an ex-serial-wannabe thru. Damn, all this time I thought you were the real deal. My most gracious thanks to Terrapin for pointing out this fraud.
Terrapin moots any point he could have made once again though the venue of insult. Yuck.
i'm just hiker trash. hell, i coined the term
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 12:10
Sometimes... :rolleyes:. I don't have an inside track on ATC's official mindset but ISTM their concern (rightly) is more about the trail than about hiking. And in this case, the trail is unambiguous: there is only one AT. Not being religious about it; in fact, I think the ATC's silence such matters is primarily to avoid such religious topics.
Well actually the ATC has been known to help out with other trails. The ATC is now a conservancy that deals with land conservation along the AT so that it protects the trail. Expanding the trails along the axis of the AT has the effect of widening that protective corridor. If the BMT gets land protection on the edge of the AT, then the AT gets more land around it protected. It make VERY good sense for the AT to promote these other trails just like an Army that has allies does better for itself by protecting and helping its allies.
And as for avoiding the topic, they do sort of just avoid trying to verify you hike the one and only trail already. They leave it at an honor system that you figured out the best way to hike it. The problem in this regard is people that then throw the word lie or lier around when people don't follow the "unambigous". :rolleyes:
Rock's idea is to "define" the problem away. Not sure if that will work, but then again, politicians nowadays try it all the time. Will potential thru-hikers use the BMT just because they're "allowed" to? I dunno.
I think I am the exact opposite of a politician. :rolleyes:
I am promoting the following of other trails to help PRESERVE the AT. It ain't a hard concept. What gets me is people that somehow think it is a strange idea. Probably the same type of people that back in the 30s and 40s that figured no one would ever try to hike the AT in one year just because they could. Man were they wrong.
i happen to like hiking on the a.t. in the springtime.
Try the fall, it's better!
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 12:11
I'm familiar with LW's posting history, Rock. LW knows what I'm talking about. I've probably known LW longer than most on this list.
Then why say something you know is totally wrong. Rhetoric I suppose. Like equating me to a politician. :rolleyes:
And you think my comparing the JetBoil to an SUV is a stretch.
warraghiyagey
10-26-2007, 12:12
you see, this is the problem. whenever anybody raises this issue, thru-hikers get all upset and bothered and start casting aspersions. they are unable to rationally discuss the issue. therefore, no progress is made.
I'm not a thru hiker yet. I've never claimed to be. Nice fact finding work there though uummmm. . . ahem - 'journalist.'
Curious your casting aspersions claim, as if your whole commentary on this thread you started hasn't been chock full of said aspersions. Maybe you'd like us to regulate ourselves down to our very breaths. Yeeeee haawww or something like that as I believe you put it. Nothing rational there.
BTW- before 'journalist' started this thread - it had a total of three posts here. While that number is slightly higher now, they've since been concentrated primarily on negative comments involving thru hikers. Yet said 'journalist' who by it's very screenname needs people to know what it does, fancies itself at the least some sort of wordsmith. Yet berates hikers on a hiking site and claims casting of aspersions while being at least equally guilty of the same.
And what is your judgement of 'progress' being made? When hikers agree with you even after you've insulted the lot of them? This is a hiking site. You've insulted hikers of all sorts in many different ways. What progress were you hoping for?
SGT Rock
10-26-2007, 12:13
Try the fall, it's better!
Amen brother Sly.
that's a little condescending, isn't it? it's not solving the problem to tell me to go elsewhere to make way for the mobs of thru-hikers. excuse me, but i happen to like hiking on the a.t. in the springtime.
You're bringing the condescention upon yourself with broad statements that paint a negative picture of thru hikers. You'd do better to be aware that most thru hikers care deeply about the trail as well as the experience that other hikers get from their hike. A little acceptance of that fact would carry some weight in getting your opinion across.