View Full Version : Going Off-Leash ...
Bootstrap
10-26-2007, 11:30
I would love to take my dog with me when I run through the woods or hike or go backpacking.
But off-leash, she runs away. She's young and obedient enough to train, but I'm reluctant to let her get away too often while training her to go off-leash.
How should I train her?
Jonathan
warraghiyagey
10-26-2007, 11:38
Not sure how you should train her but if she has any territoriality in her she should be on a leash when around others. If you're camped for the night and allthe others who may be around are comfortable with her then you could take her off.
It's a tall order to train a dog not to run off at something that interests them in the woods. The only dogs I've ever seen were aware of one word from their human that they understand as not negotiable. Choose your word and take her with a long leash. Train her with this word while on her leash until she stays every time yo use it. Then cautiously use this system with her unleashed and react with the leash accordingly to her response.
ChinMusic
10-26-2007, 12:16
I had very good luck with Dogtra http://www.dogtra.com/ .
If you go this route I would suggest getting it from a training school and get a few lessons in the beginning. I can stop my dog anytime I wish with just the touch of a button. It is for his safety and the respect of others. After awhile, after incorporating voice commands into the training, you will find that you rarely have to correct with the button.
This allows me to have both my hands on trekking poles and increases MY safety as well.
Touch base with Phreak. He is an expert on both topics.
www.hikes247.com (http://www.hikes247.com)
Uncle Silly
10-26-2007, 16:34
But off-leash, she runs away. She's young and obedient enough to train, but I'm reluctant to let her get away too often while training her to go off-leash.
It's not the running away that should concern you, it's how long she's gone. What is her behavior as far as coming back? When she runs off, do you have to go after her, or will she return to you in a matter of minutes? or hours?
Personally I don't like the idea of a shock collar. If I were confident that she'd come back (say, within an hour or so), I'd take her on some shakedown hikes, to somewhere she'll have room to roam. Keep her on-leash until you get to a campsite and setup. Then let her off-leash, and play with her to keep her occupied and close. When she runs off to investigate or whatever, let her go for fifteen minutes or so, then call her back. If she doesn't come immediately don't panic -- just keep calling for her every fifteen minutes or so. If she's like my dog she'll get bored and come back before too long. The risk is that she'll stay gone all night and you'll have to go searching for her in the morning. That's why you should be confident that she'll come back to you before trying this, and you have to be confident that you can find her the next morning if she decides to spend the night somewhere other than your camp.
Bootstrap
10-26-2007, 16:41
I had very good luck with Dogtra http://www.dogtra.com/ .
I may look into that, but I'm wondering if simple training can do the trick.
This allows me to have both my hands on trekking poles and increases MY safety as well.
FWIW, if your dog doesn't pull hard (a habit I've broken her of), it's easy enough to throw a loop around the dog's neck and tie the other end of the line to my waist belt or a chalk bag belt around my waist. I often run with her this way, and it's much easier to stay balanced if I don't have to deal with a leash in my hands.
Jonathan
Uncle Silly
10-26-2007, 17:19
FWIW, if your dog doesn't pull hard (a habit I've broken her of), it's easy enough to throw a loop around the dog's neck and tie the other end of the line to my waist belt or a chalk bag belt around my waist. I often run with her this way, and it's much easier to stay balanced if I don't have to deal with a leash in my hands.
Hikers with dogs that can't be allowed off-leash use this trick quite a bit. They'll attach the person-end of the leash to their hip belt or some other handy point on their pack. My buddy Sideshow in '05 kept his husky leashed like that.
Bootstrap
10-26-2007, 17:34
Hikers with dogs that can't be allowed off-leash use this trick quite a bit. They'll attach the person-end of the leash to their hip belt or some other handy point on their pack. My buddy Sideshow in '05 kept his husky leashed like that.
Yeah, it works. But it would be so much nicer for her to be able to go free ... if I could trust her. By my standards she'd have to be really, really obedient off-leash.
Jonathan
leeki pole
10-26-2007, 17:45
How old is your dog? Most breeds don't reach maturity until 2 or 3 years old. A puppy or adolescent dog is much more likely to roam and ignore commands.
Personally, I wouldn't even try to go off leash until you are fully confident of your dog's obedience. I trained my Labrador on a long lead for three years before I let him go off lead. He responds to a few simple commands; voice (sit, come) if he's close by or if he's in the field:
one whistle, stop and sit. Two whistles, come. And arm signals; left, right, go and "form on me" (pump arm up and down). Even then, around a shelter I'd sure put a leash on him as a courtesy to other hikers. The arm commands are mainly for retreiving work, but they work well for basic obedience also. As far as training, it's just between you and your dog. Be prepared to spend a lot of time and effort, but it's well worth it. Good luck!
my dog was a rescue that came nearly fully trained & grown, and works better off leash (edit: which i can't take credit for), but in what i guess you could call 'maintenance training', i work with her on and off leash in an area she can't run off, like in the backyard. maybe start working slowly but steadily with your dog in an enclosed area on and off leash,
i've mentioned this command before on dog threads, but the best command i taught my dog was 'stayback' she walks behind me, or beside if the trail is wide enough, the best thing about it is that it is a very submissive position, even as a dog groomer, i like to get the upper hand and put the dog in a submissive position to start with
just like humans all dogs learn differently, it will take time and patience, keep it simple but it will take time.
Uncle Silly
10-26-2007, 17:59
How old is your dog? Most breeds don't reach maturity until 2 or 3 years old. A puppy or adolescent dog is much more likely to roam and ignore commands.
Excellent point. I can tell you there was a great deal of difference in how much my dog roamed on the trail between '05 (2 years old) and '07 (4 years old). She stayed with me more while we hiked, and wasn't gone as long when she did wander off during break stops or from camp.
icemanat95
10-26-2007, 20:05
I hate to see dogs hiking off leash. They get into a lot of trouble.
Some things to consider:
Water sources: would you want to drink water from a stream that a dog just urinated in, or urinated or defecated on the banks upstream? Probably not.
Dogs off lead sometimes get into trouble with local wildlife and then b ring the problem back to you.
Dogs off lead tend to shed dog packs in the woods, never to be found again.
Like it or not, dogs have been domesticated for thousands upon thousands of years. They are just as much strangers in the woods as we are and while they have certain adaptations (like better senses of smell and fur coats) to deal with some survival challenges, they are still relative city slickers and not really part of the natural world.
Appalachian Tater
10-26-2007, 20:09
On my thru-hike I saw at least five totally lost dogs out in the woods that I can remember off-hand. You are taking a chance at never seeing your dog again.
ChinMusic
10-26-2007, 20:43
I may look into that, but I'm wondering if simple training can do the trick.
Jonathan
Diff dogs will need diff amounts of training. I can tell you that I can take my dog across a busy street, next to a park full of squirrels, and keep him at my side without a leash. Even with that control I keep him on a leash while walking on our local bike trail. The weak link is ME. I will be listening to music and not hear a bike coming up behind me.
I allow him to wonder maybe 30 feet from me on a hiking trail if no other hikers are around. He knows not to break that distance or a correction is coming. When others are near, I call him close to me until I find out if the other hiker(s) are OK with dogs. At this point corrections are not needed that often and he has backpacked 100s of mile with me. About the only wildlife I fear for him is the rattlesnake. But a snake could get him at 30 feet or at my feet on a leash. Life is not without risk.
That said, I would NOT take him on a thru-hike no matter how well-mannered he is.
Bootstrap
10-27-2007, 14:22
How old is your dog?
I'm guessing between 3 and 4. And maybe it's time to just try this training again, it wasn't working when she was younger, that may be a maturity thing.
Jonathan
gsingjane
10-27-2007, 16:37
Talk to LIHikers about dog training/hiking. His is the only dog I've ever seen that was completely trail-ready and obedient.
I know people like to let their dogs run and play in the woods. It must seem cruel not to let them have fun in the outdoors. I appreciate it that many hikers restrain their off-leash dogs when they see other hikers; however, you won't always see those other hikers coming, and it seems to be the natural instinct of many dogs to jump out or dash at creatures they encounter in the woods.
In particular, at least once a year we have an encounter with an off-leash dog when we are hiking with our youngest daughter (now 9, trailname Skippy). She is quite short and slight, and I think many dogs mistake her for another animal. Every single year since she's been 4, we've had at least one dog leap out of the bushes or run at her on the trail, and it is a very, very scary experience for a little child.
I have been flamed for making this comment before, because it seems that many dog owners feel that their dogs' rights are equivalent to, or perhaps in some cases exceed, those of humans on the trail. It also seems that people feel that a child might "provoke" a dog into jumping at him or her. Maybe in some cases this is true (some naughty kids do tease or provoke dogs); however, in our experience, the dog has always suddenly leapt out and pounced on our daughter and it is hard to see how she could have been encouraging or in another way deserves this. It is particularly unsettling when this happens when it is getting close to dusk, and nerves are on edge anyway.
I really just post this so you will think (as you seem to be doing) about the impact of your dog on all trail users. And, do speak to LIHikers. He has worked magic with their dog.
Jane in CT
shelterbuilder
10-27-2007, 17:21
...In particular, at least once a year we have an encounter with an off-leash dog when we are hiking with our youngest daughter (now 9, trailname Skippy). She is quite short and slight, and I think many dogs mistake her for another animal. Every single year since she's been 4, we've had at least one dog leap out of the bushes or run at her on the trail, and it is a very, very scary experience for a little child...It also seems that people feel that a child might "provoke" a dog into jumping at him or her. Maybe in some cases this is true (some naughty kids do tease or provoke dogs); however, in our experience, the dog has always suddenly leapt out and pounced on our daughter and it is hard to see how she could have been encouraging or in another way deserves this. It is particularly unsettling when this happens when it is getting close to dusk, and nerves are on edge anyway.
Jane in CT
Jane, PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, because I know that there are few things more terrifying to a small child than being "pounced" by an animal.
Is your daughter afraid of dogs (or afraid of being jumped on by dogs)? All dogs can sense this, and in some (not all) dogs, sensing this is sometimes enough to trigger a "dominance" response, even in dogs who are not normally "aggressive" animals. (And yes, they will tend to go after the smallest member of the group - in this case, your daughter.) No, I am not trying to put the "blame" onto your daughter - if she is fearful, she cannot control this any more than the dog can control the instinct to "pounce". And many times, the instinct is tied less to aggression and more to dominance/submission within the dog's social-structure instincts. (Sometimes, the packs on our backs make us look like "monsters" to some animals - some dogs and most horses fall into this catagory.)
Your daughter may be helped by two things. First, if she is fearful of dogs/dog encounters, she needs to be helped to overcome this (this is not always easy). Secondly, she needs to know that, if she doesn't want a dog's "attentions", it is alright for her to physically fend off the animal - a hiking stick, held vertically and waved side-to-side between her and the animal's head will sometimes work to stop the dog. (If not, a bop on the side of the snout can very often bring a dog up short!) She needn't hurt the dog, just get its attention in a way that says to the dog - "hey, you don't belong here!" If the dog is only curious and not aggressive, she could hold her hands out in front of her and say "no" or "down" in a firm tone.
I don't like coming around the bend in a trail and finding a loose dog either - especially when I'm hiking with one of my dogs (who is always on a leash). I sometimes handle things a bit differently, but I'm bigger than your daughter, and I'm not afraid of getting bit (been there, done that).
gsingjane
10-27-2007, 18:07
Hi, thanks for your comments and I'm not taking them the wrong way... you are certainly right that after several of these encounters, Skippy is definitely afraid of dogs on the trail (and, now, dogs not on the trail). My question is, what should she or we do about dogs that suddenly leap out of the bushes or underbrush at the side of the trail, or that come racing around a corner and then jump? I don't think a dog would necessarily sense her fear from that distance or location, would that be right? I mean it isn't like she sees it and screams and runs away and then it pounces, it's more like it jumps on top of her as a total surprise. Your suggestion for her to hike with a stick, and instructions that she can use it against a dog if necessary, is interesting. I'm not sure if it would increase her anxiety or perhaps make her feel more comfortable. Next time we go out she can try it and see.
I also hope that others who read this, who are interested in hiking with dogs, will know a little bit about the downside of letting them run off-leash. As I say, I am sure it is very tempting to do it and I, too, would like to see my pet having fun in the outdoors. Dog owners are always very apologetic when their dogs have jumped on Skippy and she's crying or screaming, but I guess they must just figure it doesn't happen often enough to warrant using the leash, I don't know.
Jane in CT
shelterbuilder
10-27-2007, 18:47
...Skippy is definitely afraid of dogs on the trail (and, now, dogs not on the trail). My question is, what should she or we do about dogs that suddenly leap out of the bushes or underbrush at the side of the trail, or that come racing around a corner and then jump? I don't think a dog would necessarily sense her fear from that distance or location, would that be right? I mean it isn't like she sees it and screams and runs away and then it pounces, it's more like it jumps on top of her as a total surprise. Your suggestion for her to hike with a stick, and instructions that she can use it against a dog if necessary, is interesting. I'm not sure if it would increase her anxiety or perhaps make her feel more comfortable. Next time we go out she can try it and see.
I also hope that others who read this, who are interested in hiking with dogs, will know a little bit about the downside of letting them run off-leash. As I say, I am sure it is very tempting to do it and I, too, would like to see my pet having fun in the outdoors. Dog owners are always very apologetic when their dogs have jumped on Skippy and she's crying or screaming, but I guess they must just figure it doesn't happen often enough to warrant using the leash, I don't know.
Jane in CT
Because they communicate through the spoken word, people tend to forget that body language is also an effective way of "talking". Animals use body language much more than we do, and they can interpret human body laguage as well. I suspect that your daughter is using body language unconsiously to communicate her fear/uneasiness to the dogs in question. She may freeze, she may stiffen up, she may hunch over a bit, her facial expression may change slightly. She doesn't have to say a word - between body laguage and the fact that "fear has a smell all its own", I'm sure that the dog gets the message instantly! (By the way, running is probably the worst thing that she could do - running triggers an instinctual "chase" response in most dogs, and there's no way that she could ever outrun a dog.)
If it's possible, when you go to a mall where there's a pet shop with dogs on display through a glass window, walk her past the window, slowly, and comment on how cute the dogs look, how cuddly they appear. DON'T tell her that she shouldn't be afraid of them, just look from a safe distance and notice all of the non-threatening things about them. Funny things, too - long stringy fur, no fur, funny expressions, funny contorted positions, etc...cute, funny, silly stuff. When she can handle this well, take her to the exercise pen in the pet store and let her LOOK at the dogs from a comfortable distance, again commenting on the funny stuff, the cute stuff, the silly stuff. No touching at this point (because puppies love to chew and their teeth are like little needles). When she can handle this, let her try petting them, but warn her that puppies are like little children - everything goes in the mouth, but they mean no harm. By gradually exposing her to more and more "dog encounters" in a very controlled way, she may be able to overcome her fear of dogs. If there is a "mishap" at one level of exposure, drop back to the previous level for a while, then try to move up again.
As for what to do when you're out on the trail, the only suggestion that I have is to have her walk between two other larger people - don't let her get out in front because that's the person who's most likely to find the loose dog first. But don't tell her that this is the reason she's in the middle. That could serve to reinforce the notion of being fearful.
I tend to be a bit aggressive when I encounter a loose dog, and sometimes the owner is not too pleased, but I tend to try to think like a dog when I have to interact with dogs, and a strong, firm posture helps to reinforce the dog's idea of MY dominance over it. Without hurting the dog, I leave no room for the dog to wonder about it!:D
Agree with Shelterbuilder. I also have zero fuse with jumpers. Or aggressive animals, maybe less than zero.
Find a mild mannered dog/owner. Closed fist sniff. Let the dog lick her fist. She may giggle.
Not trying to rile you, but how does a dog approach your child without you interceeding? Vibram soles make excellent shields.
Teach her to baton twirl, you learn too. Hike with a staff. Both of you.
gsingjane
10-27-2007, 19:16
Well I think this is about the last I'll say on this. A dog can approach my daughter "without my interceding" when it jumps out of the bushes as she's walking by. Or when she is hikiing maybe 20 feet in front of me with her big sister. Believe me, if a dog comes running up to us and any of the bigger people are there, we immediately get between Skippy and the dog. Whenever any of us hear rustling in the underbrush, if it is obviously bigger than a squirrel, we go on alert and make sure she's protected. However, it is very, very hard, as I think most people who hike with kids know, to keep a child right at your side every single second, especially on a multi-hour or -day hike. In fact I would say that would probably take an awful lot of the fun out of it for any child, to have to feel as if they can't leave mom's side for the entire time - why not stay home, then?
Fiortunately, we aren't approached by a dog every time we go hiking, whether this is on the AT or on any of the blue-blazed trails we're very lucky to have around here. We find, actually, that we probably encounter more dogs in the areas where people commonly walk them say from their houses, as opposed to the dog being a trail companion on a long distance hike. But I have really been amazed sometimes, I take Girl Scouts out on hikes as often as I can, and people will even permit their off-leash dogs to approach large groups of children. In almost every group there will be one or two children who are intensely afraid of dogs, but we seem to pick up a canine friend at least 1/2 the time we go out. (People also let their dogs roam in Girl Scout camps if they live adjacent to the camp, but that's a whole other discussion I guess!).
Jane
Good hiking to you. Take some of those dog owners to task.
shelterbuilder
10-27-2007, 19:28
Agree with Shelterbuilder. I also have zero fuse with jumpers. Or aggressive animals, maybe less than zero.
Find a mild mannered dog/owner. Closed fist sniff. Let the dog lick her fist. She may giggle.
Not trying to rile you, but how does a dog approach your child without you interceeding? Vibram soles make excellent shields.
Teach her to baton twirl, you learn too. Hike with a staff. Both of you.
I disagree with the "Vibram sole" approach - that can teach a dog to be fearful of strangers, and it is the fearful dog that seems to bite without provocation or warning more often than the "vicious" dog. But that's just my opinion....
shelterbuilder
10-27-2007, 19:37
Well I think this is about the last I'll say on this. A dog can approach my daughter "without my interceding" when it jumps out of the bushes as she's walking by. Or when she is hikiing maybe 20 feet in front of me with her big sister. Believe me, if a dog comes running up to us and any of the bigger people are there, we immediately get between Skippy and the dog. Whenever any of us hear rustling in the underbrush, if it is obviously bigger than a squirrel, we go on alert and make sure she's protected. However, it is very, very hard, as I think most people who hike with kids know, to keep a child right at your side every single second, especially on a multi-hour or -day hike. In fact I would say that would probably take an awful lot of the fun out of it for any child, to have to feel as if they can't leave mom's side for the entire time - why not stay home, then?
Fiortunately, we aren't approached by a dog every time we go hiking, whether this is on the AT or on any of the blue-blazed trails we're very lucky to have around here. We find, actually, that we probably encounter more dogs in the areas where people commonly walk them say from their houses, as opposed to the dog being a trail companion on a long distance hike. But I have really been amazed sometimes, I take Girl Scouts out on hikes as often as I can, and people will even permit their off-leash dogs to approach large groups of children. In almost every group there will be one or two children who are intensely afraid of dogs, but we seem to pick up a canine friend at least 1/2 the time we go out. (People also let their dogs roam in Girl Scout camps if they live adjacent to the camp, but that's a whole other discussion I guess!).
Jane
Sometimes, it's a fine line to walk between making sure that your kids are safe, and making them believe that certain things are to be feared. I'm NOT about to tell you how to raise your daughter, but if she is able to overcome her fear of dogs in "social" situations, she will have scored a MAJOR victory. :banana Our granddaughter (5 years old) is not too comfortable around dogs - we have four right now, and the younger ones are jumpers. Needless to say, they are crated when our granddaughter is in the house. But there's plenty of time for her to overcome her fears, and there's plenty of time to teach the dogs that they are to stay down!:D
minnesotasmith
10-28-2007, 03:30
I saw multiple heartbreaking "Lost Dog" signs along the AT during my thruhike last year. Undoubtedly most or all of them were about dogs that their owners were sure were adequately trained for off-leash.
Leaving aside that dogs tend to find porcupines, skunks, and bears (bringing a P.O.ed mother bear back to you could ruin your whole day), dogs often get hopelessly lost when in the woods. Buddy at Shaw's has worked retrieving hunting dogs that were miles from anything (findable only due to them wearing pricy tracking devices), and these are highly-trained dogs that are out in the woods off-leash regularly.
Well this is a little nuts to me. I am a dog trainer and a service dog handler. I have encountered way too many dogs off leash and people aren't recognizing that this is a form a cruelty. You endanger the safety of yourself, the dog and other members of the public by having an out of control dog. By out of control I mean anytime the dog is out of your sight or not responsive to commands for whatever reason.
Any dog out of your sight is in and a danger. Every time I encounter an off leash dog on the trail, I pull a spare leash from my pack and leash it. I then call for the owner at the top of my lungs. If there is no response I take the dog to the local rescue and continue my hike. Many owners will be upset but more are surprised that Fido who hates walking on leash is behaving himself with me. I have to say though, if an off leash animal approached a child under my care, I would have more to say then you seem to have. I am sorry out of control animals have frightened your child Jane. Shelterbuilder's advice for overcoming the fears is on the mark, if this continues or worsens I would look for a counsellor to help your child.
Now I am climbing off my soap box.:)
Bootstrap- in answer to your question, off leash training is an extension of on leash training. The first step is to master the training on a 6' leash. If the dog can pass without missing a beat then you switch to a 20', and then to a 50' leash. The whole idea is for the dog to believe that you are in control no matter how far away you are. This process will last at least 3 months before you even consider off leash training and may take longer. You need to have at least 1 month of solid behavior at each level before continuing. Once you are consistent take the 6 foot leash and attach it to the longer leash and do the training. Then for short periods of time in controlled environments remove the long line but leave the 6 foot on through out the training. You are basically tricking them into thinking they are still on leash. As the training progresses you start having the dog wear a tab all the time, training or otherwise. This is what they dog will believe is the leash that is always on them. Slowly practice with control distractions like other animals and people. Always praise and reward. Consider teaching a halt/stop command and make sure your recall is perfect before giving commands when the leash is off or the dog will just learn to ignore the command.
There is a place for electric collars for precise off leash field training but you are better with the above training. If you are interested in e-training post and I can direct you further. For reference my dog is e-collar trained for a much higher level of off leash obedience and safety training in my absence.
If your dog will not stay within your site, or your dog approaches other hikers without your direct consent, your dog belongs on leash.
I have two dogs, one of which hikes off leash. The other does not. I don't try to kid myself with our second dog thinking she is capable. We will continue to work with her, but I am not certain she will ever meet my standard to hike off leash.
When I read some of the posts here suggesting it is alright for dogs to run within an 1/8 mile perimeter, or dog owners suggesting how hikers should act when a (their) dog runs up to them, it becomes clear to me why so many hikers feel so strongly that dogs should not be allowed off leash on the AT.
Bootstrap
10-29-2007, 11:47
By out of control I mean anytime the dog is out of your sight or not responsive to commands for whatever reason.
Yes, that's a great definition. If either of these happen, it's not working.
Bootstrap- in answer to your question, off leash training is an extension of on leash training. The first step is to master the training on a 6' leash. If the dog can pass without missing a beat then you switch to a 20', and then to a 50' leash. The whole idea is for the dog to believe that you are in control no matter how far away you are. This process will last at least 3 months before you even consider off leash training and may take longer.
She's perfect on a 9 meter leash (16 feet?). I'm willing to give this 3 months if there's a good chance that I can trust her to stay in sight and responsive off leash for running and hiking. I'll have to find a 50 foot leash and try the next phase.
Once you are consistent take the 6 foot leash and attach it to the longer leash and do the training. Then for short periods of time in controlled environments remove the long line but leave the 6 foot on through out the training. You are basically tricking them into thinking they are still on leash. As the training progresses you start having the dog wear a tab all the time, training or otherwise. This is what they dog will believe is the leash that is always on them.
I'm sorry, I simply didn't understand this part. What is a tab? When you're doing the bit with two leashes, how is it that you trick the dog into thinking they are still on the leash?
Something like e-training may be interesting some time, but mostly I want her to come or down-stay when I ask her to, and I want to know what I should train her to do when she encounters all those other dogs you see on the trail.
Thanks!
Jonathan
ChimneySpring
10-29-2007, 12:01
If your dog will not stay within your site, or your dog approaches other hikers without your direct consent, your dog belongs on leash.
Dogs belong on a leash, period.
I would love to take my dog with me when I run through the woods or hike or go backpacking.
But off-leash, she runs away. She's young and obedient enough to train, but I'm reluctant to let her get away too often while training her to go off-leash.
How should I train her?
Jonathan
Hey Jonathan,
Drop me an email, brian (at) hikes247 (dot) com. I can help you with the training.
Dogs belong on a leash, period.Your blanket statement is simply wrong. You are welcome to your opinion though. And your opinion certainly does support the remainder of my post that you chose not to include in your selected quote.
cowboy nichols
10-29-2007, 12:52
On trail--On leash. Many-many years hiking with dogs.
Bootstrap
10-29-2007, 13:06
On trail--On leash. Many-many years hiking with dogs.
I've seen dogs on the trail who do not approach people or other dogs unless their owner gives them permission, do not go out of site of the owner, and obey commands. If that's consistent, and their owners say it is, then more power to them. If my dog did the same, she'd be off leash.
For now, she's definitely on leash.
Jonathan
Appalachian Tater
10-29-2007, 13:12
I've seen dogs on the trail who do not approach people or other dogs unless their owner gives them permission, do not go out of site of the owner, and obey commands. If that's consistent, and their owners say it is, then more power to them. If my dog did the same, she'd be off leash.
For now, she's definitely on leash.
Jonathan
The problem is other people don't know whether or not your dog is a threat. It creates anxiety. I do not like having to mentally prepare myself for killing a dog with my hiking poles every time one runs at me or starts snarling or barking.
The only dog that is not a threat is one firmly on a leash in the hands of an adult. A big dog being held on a leash by a small child doesn't count.
If your dog is not on a leash, you are imposing on anyone you come across and endangering your dog. Period.
ChimneySpring
10-29-2007, 13:41
Your blanket statement is simply wrong. You are welcome to your opinion though. And your opinion certainly does support the remainder of my post that you chose not to include in your selected quote.
No, I'm afraid it's not. Per 'Tater's post, regardless of how well you believe your is trained or behaves, having them loose is imposing and dare I say disrespectful of others.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.795337/k.9784/Hiking_with_Dogs.htm
No, I'm afraid it's not. Per 'Tater's post, regardless of how well you believe your is trained or behaves, having them loose is imposing and dare I say disrespectful of others.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.795337/k.9784/Hiking_with_Dogs.htm
Ignorance is bliss :rolleyes:
No, I'm afraid it's not. Per 'Tater's post, regardless of how well you believe your is trained or behaves, having them loose is imposing and dare I say disrespectful of others.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.795337/k.9784/Hiking_with_Dogs.htm
Ignorance is bliss :rolleyes:No, no...if Tater said it, then it must be true. Tater knows everything. Anyone who has spent just an hour on WhiteBlaze should know that.;)
ChimneySpring
10-29-2007, 15:22
No. The statement was common sense.
I'm an avid animal fan, have had many dogs as pets - including some highly trained ones who based on MY impression of their temperment, obedience and suitability for off-leash activities would be perfectly fine. But you know what? I'm respectful of others, their concerns, and understand that no matter how highly trained an animal is, there are certainly unforeseen issues that can arise that would negatively impact other people.
That's not ignorance, Phreak. It's consideration for others. Tough concept for some "dog lovers" to grasp.
leeki pole
10-29-2007, 15:24
No, no...if Tater said it, then it must be true. Tater knows everything. Anyone who has spent just an hour on WhiteBlaze should know that.;)
Haha...good one! Anybody knows that folks from NYC know more about dogs and dog training than us dumb*** rednecks from the South.;)
Appalachian Tater
10-29-2007, 15:27
Haha...good one! Anybody knows that folks from NYC know more about dogs and dog training than us dumb*** rednecks from the South.;)
I'm from farther South than you are.
Bootstrap
10-29-2007, 15:30
No. The statement was common sense.
I think it's pretty clear, on this thread, that we have (at least) two strongly held and contradictory versions of common sense. If both sides get more emphatic about their version of common sense, that won't help us communicate. (And yes, we've had the same emphatic statements for other points of view, I'm not trying to pick on you.)
I'd like to explore a little more. It makes sense to me that dog owners should be very careful that their dogs don't scare people. To me, one requirement for a dog to go off-leash is that it doesn't approach other people without its owner's permission. I would only give that permission if I had reason to believe it is OK with the other person.
Suppose, after adequate training, I really could pretty much guarantee that for my dog. Would that be enough for you? If not, why not?
Jonathan
Appalachian Tater
10-29-2007, 15:38
I think it's pretty clear, on this thread, that we have (at least) two strongly held and contradictory versions of common sense. If both sides get more emphatic about their version of common sense, that won't help us communicate. (And yes, we've had the same emphatic statements for other points of view, I'm not trying to pick on you.)
I'd like to explore a little more. It makes sense to me that dog owners should be very careful that their dogs don't scare people. To me, one requirement for a dog to go off-leash is that it doesn't approach other people without its owner's permission. I would only give that permission if I had reason to believe it is OK with the other person.
Suppose, after adequate training, I really could pretty much guarantee that for my dog. Would that be enough for you? If not, why not?
Jonathan
Jonathan, other people don't know anything about your dog. Remember, hikers have already encountered plenty of dogs with bad owners. Without exception, the well-behaved dogs were leashed before I saw them or got within hollering distance.
Why is it so important for your dog to run free in the woods? It can only get in trouble. You have no right to impose on other people that way. The fact that you're even having this conversation leads me to believe that you're a good dog owner and that you will protect your dog by keeping it leashed.
I saw too many lost dogs in the woods, including one in Maine that had hiked from Georgia. He was fortunately only lost about 24 hours. Besides the pain and anguish on the part of the owner, he was on a tight schedule to finish his hike at that point. Most of the dogs I saw that had been lost were painfully thin and very hungry. They were pitiful. If they had been in someone's control, that person could have been charged with cruelty to animals.
leeki pole
10-29-2007, 16:04
I think it's pretty clear, on this thread, that we have (at least) two strongly held and contradictory versions of common sense. If both sides get more emphatic about their version of common sense, that won't help us communicate. (And yes, we've had the same emphatic statements for other points of view, I'm not trying to pick on you.)
I'd like to explore a little more. It makes sense to me that dog owners should be very careful that their dogs don't scare people. To me, one requirement for a dog to go off-leash is that it doesn't approach other people without its owner's permission. I would only give that permission if I had reason to believe it is OK with the other person.
Suppose, after adequate training, I really could pretty much guarantee that for my dog. Would that be enough for you? If not, why not?
Jonathan
Good point, Jonathan. Yes, if you could guarantee that your dog would sit/stay on command and come to you, only to you, that would be fine with me. I never approach someone else's dog or pet her without permission from their human. If my dog showed any interest in or even approached another person, other than someone he was familiar with (say, family) I would leash him without hesitation.
But there are great, well-behaved dogs out there who are totally disinterested in other people. This can only come about with thorough training and discipline. The real wild card in the deck is if another dog shows up and that's when all bets can be off, no matter the level of training. Dogs are very social animals and their instinct is to "check out" the other dog. I could see where leashing could be helpful in this situation. You can't know how well trained the other dog is.
I know I'm probably waffling a bit here, but as long as you know you're in a remote area where the probability of human or canine contact is low, and you're confident in your training, I wouldn't have a problem with going off-lead. If you would expect to see other people or dogs, as a courtesy to other hikers and the safety of your dog, I'd put her on lead.
Keith
Suppose, after adequate training, I really could pretty much guarantee that for my dog. Would that be enough for you? If not, why not?I won't speak directly for him, but there are many AT "Captains of the World" whom it would not be enough.
Bootstrap, here is my experience with a dog on the trail. And I am constantly on trails, mostly the AT now as my new house sits about 250 yds away.
First, my dog and I do not stay in shelters. I understand that some hikers simply do not like dogs, so we do not stay as a courtesy to them. There is a huge difference between crossing paths on the trail and staying in a confined area for 12 hours. But, not staying at shelters is easy for us because I find many hikers to be more out of control than many dogs so I don't overnight at shelters even when I hike alone. We do often lunch at shelters so we do not avoid them completely.
Second, my dog is trained to stop in his tracks as soon as he sees oncoming hikers. If I see the oncoming hikers first, a simple "Wait" command stops him in his tracks as well. At that time I have him sit directly next to me at the side of the trail and allow the oncoming hikers to go by. I have never had anyone suggest he should be leashed because the fact is most hikers probably believe he is leashed. I estimate that 80% of the hikers will say in passing something regarding how well behaved he is and about 60% of those will stop and ask about him and ask if it is OK to pet him. If a child is in the group I always let an adult know my dog is friendly and ask permission before allowing the child pet my dog.
Third, taking the other side of the discussion there some dogs who are not under control on the trail. My experience is that most of the problem dogs are local and do not belong to hikers, but out of control hiker owned dogs certainly do exist. I don't like dogs charging at me any more than anyone else. It creates an uncomfortable situation as I first have to take action to protect my dog (usually the primary target), and then decide what action I should take to protect myself if necessary.
So, I do have an understanding of why some have the feelings about dogs on the trail they have. And I also know that conducting a cyber argument on the topic is futile. Each dog is different, just as each hiker is different. If you train your dog well, have complete control over its behavior you will find people will have no problem with you and your off leash dog on the trail. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, if your dog wanders out of sight or your dog approaches others without your consent you should keep your dog leashed. And dogs and shelters don't mix. Staying at a shelter with fido is only asking for trouble IMO.
Appalachian Tater
10-29-2007, 16:44
And dogs and shelters don't mix. Staying at a shelter with fido is only asking for trouble IMO.
There were a couple of well-behaved thru-hiker dogs whose owners camped at (not in) shelters and let their dogs off leash. It wasn't a problem because everybody knew the dogs and the dogs did not wander out of the owners' sight. But when you encounter a dog on the trail and you don't know it, even one sitting by its owner is problemmatic because dogs can be fine until you pass by and then they growl and snap.
Oh, and don't forget the really bad owners tell you their dog is safe. (Good owners don't need to.) When I hear someone saying, "Oh, don't worry....." or "He's fine...." I interrupt them with "Would you please leash your dog?"
There are many areas where local, state or federal laws REQUIRE that a dog be leashed. Dog owners that let their dogs off leash in those areas are deciding the rules don't apply to them or their dogs.
When I'm hiking and encounter an unleashed dog, I have no idea if the dog is friendly or not. There have been many times where the dog has run well ahead of it's owner. At this point, I have no idea if the dog is lost, rabid, unfriendly or simply walking ahead of its owner.
Oh, and don't forget the really bad owners tell you their dog is safe. (Good owners don't need to.) When I hear someone saying, "Oh, don't worry....." or "He's fine...." I interrupt them with "Would you please leash your dog?"
Excellent point Tater.
And I have never hesitated to leash my dogs if someone asked me to do so. I ran across a lady coming up Tray Mountain who is absolutely terrified of dogs. As soon as she told me this, I leashed both dogs and moved 20 or so paces off the trail so she could pass without worry.
ChinMusic
10-29-2007, 17:07
I have had trick-or-treaters FREEZE at my doorway at the sight of this:
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/ChinMusicIHSS/Mugsy/Halloween04.jpg
leeki pole
10-29-2007, 17:14
There were a couple of well-behaved thru-hiker dogs whose owners camped at (not in) shelters and let their dogs off leash. It wasn't a problem because everybody knew the dogs and the dogs did not wander out of the owners' sight. But when you encounter a dog on the trail and you don't know it, even one sitting by its owner is problemmatic because dogs can be fine until you pass by and then they growl and snap.
Oh, and don't forget the really bad owners tell you their dog is safe. (Good owners don't need to.) When I hear someone saying, "Oh, don't worry....." or "He's fine...." I interrupt them with "Would you please leash your dog?"
Good post, Tater. I wonder if sometimes the hiking poles and backpack of passing hikers sometimes create stress in a dog, making them feel threatened. In a relaxed setting, say at a shelter just sitting around eating dinner, there's not much stress. But a hiker clacking up the trail looking much bigger than a normal human due to the pack and weapons (i.e., poles) could trigger a defense mechanism in a dog. Some breeds and dogs could definitely "flip out" due to the breeding of defense, not just themselves but their human partner. You're coming directly at them, creating a confrontational situation. I see your point.
Appalachian Tater
10-29-2007, 17:20
I have had trick-or-treaters FREEZE at my doorway at the sight of this:
Looks like that damn dog my aunt had that used to bite my ankles.
Good post, Tater. I wonder if sometimes the hiking poles and backpack of passing hikers sometimes create stress in a dog, making them feel threatened. In a relaxed setting, say at a shelter just sitting around eating dinner, there's not much stress. But a hiker clacking up the trail looking much bigger than a normal human due to the pack and weapons (i.e., poles) could trigger a defense mechanism in a dog. Some breeds and dogs could definitely "flip out" due to the breeding of defense, not just themselves but their human partner. You're coming directly at them, creating a confrontational situation. I see your point.
Many dog owners on the trail have told me this. Apparently even a well-behaved dog will defend its master from threats without asking for permission first. I guess thousands of years of domestication will do stuff like that.
SGT Rock
10-29-2007, 17:24
I think part of the issue for some dogs too is defining their space. When in an outdoor setting where you are moving regularly dogs that are accustomed to having a defined territory can become territorial where they shouldn't as they try to figure out where their "space" is. They go into defend mode on trails seeing strangers or other inappropriate times.
I have seen this in pets people bring on the trail, but I haven't seen it in hunting dogs or in dogs that spend a great deal of time on trails like Tipi Walter's dog or Mala's dog. It leads me to think dogs that are use to roaming are less likely to have these sorts of issues.
Excellent point Tater.
And I have never hesitated to leash my dogs if someone asked me to do so. I ran across a lady coming up Tray Mountain who is absolutely terrified of dogs. As soon as she told me this, I leashed both dogs and moved 20 or so paces off the trail so she could pass without worry.
You are the exception to my experience.
ChinMusic
10-29-2007, 17:26
Looks like that damn dog my aunt had that used to bite my ankles.
From your postings I figured as much......:rolleyes:
YeOldeBackpacker
10-29-2007, 18:42
I have always believed that if you are taking your dog in a public area it should be kept on its leash.
I am not afraid of dogs I own a few, and I do run into dogs all the time at trail heads and on the trail, but this past weekend was a first for me. I was walking up to a shelter area, and had a lab mix come bolting out, jumped up and bit my hand, it started to do the shake and tear thing when the owner pulled if off me, I didn't move, didn't yell, didn't try to run, didn't strike the dog because the owner now had him in a head lock until he got a leash on it. The owner said he has never done it before, He doesn't know what happened, well gee thats nice but if I was a child instead of a bite to the hand it may have been their face.
The bottom line is this, If the owner would not have been quick( he was only a few steps behind his dog yelling at it the entire time to stop.) That dog would have been killed, sorry folks say what you want, I am a dog owner, ask anyone who knows me, my dogs are spolied rotten, but if I'm being attacked, I will kill the animal, I will stop the attack with whatever force is needed so if fluffy takes a hiking pole or a knife blade thru the chest oh well better the dog then me. The law is not going to be in favor of the dog or the owner in that case, especially if there is bodily harm done by the dog.
Moral of the story this guy and his dog hiked out that day, I got a tetnus shot and a doctor bill because of a dog that wasn't leashed. I was lucky, but it completley screwed up my plans for the day.
Excellent point Tater.
And I have never hesitated to leash my dogs if someone asked me to do so. I ran across a lady coming up Tray Mountain who is absolutely terrified of dogs. As soon as she told me this, I leashed both dogs and moved 20 or so paces off the trail so she could pass without worry.
You are the exception to my experience.I find that very hard to believe. It would take a major jerk not to leash their dog upon request. Any dog owner I know would gladly do so.
Appalachian Tater
10-29-2007, 18:47
I find that very hard to believe. It would take a major jerk not to leash their dog upon request. Any dog owner I know would gladly do so.
Not all do it gladly. Sometimes you have to get.....insistent.
ChimneySpring
10-29-2007, 20:42
I find that very hard to believe. It would take a major jerk not to leash their dog upon request. Any dog owner I know would gladly do so.
Any reason why they need to be leashed upon "request", rather than leashed safely and under control to start with? Again, you're being selfish in that rather than planning for and applying adequate control of the situation (e.g being proactively safe), you're waiting for others to dictate your responsibility.
Crazy how some could be so emphatic about leashing a dog. I guess the canine's freedom ranks right up there with your sense of being in the "wilderness" when on the AT. Any guesses on whether you and your ilk will be the first to moan when your animal actually acts like an animal and is reprimanded by another hiker? I can see it now... "innocent hiker companion injured...." Jesus. It's a dog. Leash the damn thing in public.
dixicritter
10-29-2007, 20:58
Notice
This forum was created for the purpose of discussing how to responsibly hike the trail with a dog. The purpose of the forum is not to debate the whole topic of dogs on the trail. If your aim is to do so, please go to The general forum or poll forum or something. Otherwise stay away from these threads.
That said, if you disagree with dogs on the trail, it is probably because of unaware or irresponsible owners. The purpose of this forum was to try to fix that. The hope is dog hikers can pass on to each other the things that make the rare, good trail dogs a good trail dog. If more trail dogs benefit from good owners, then maybe there will be less problems in the long run.
If a dog owner that plans to bring their dog to the trail comes here and learns all the informal rules; the health, safety, and first aid issues they must consider; the impact a hike can have on a dog, the impact a dog can have on a hike; the equipment and pack weight issues to consider; effects of secondary predation, disease, and other impacts of wildlife on the dog and the dog on the wildlife; and the overall impact of the dog hiker on other hikers and even other dogs - The hope is that a dog owner can participate in the forum and learn all the informal rules and how hard it can really be to hike with a pet responsibly, and then allow them to make a personal, informed decision to either not hike with a pet or to go on the trail armed with the skills, knowledge, and attitude to do it correctly.
All that said, this forum came about this way because it had to. Every time the topic of how to act responsibly, the thread deteriorated into another battle against dog lovers against the supposed "dog haters". So if you plan to post here, post advice about how to backpack responsibly with the pet as a response to the question or topic. Due to past experiences the threads will be monitored closely for failure to comply. Abusers will loose the ability to read or post on this forum.
Let's all remember this please.
Let's all remember this please.
Oh, I can't wait to opt out! ;)
minnesotasmith
10-29-2007, 21:39
Only dogowners in favor of at least occasionally letting their dogs off-leash on public land answer them, please:
1) How do you defend experimenting with letting your dog run loose in places where there is any chance of them encountering other hikers, when you have no reason to believe those other hikers have specifically consented to you experimenting with their safety?
2) At what apparent threat level (on public lands not specifically set aside primarily for dogs to run loose) do you believe that another hiker (who does not know you or your dog) is justified in aiming either a can of bear spray or a loaded firearm at your loose dog?
3) At what apparent threat level would you believe another hiker would be justified in using bear spray or a firearm on your loose dog?
I genuinely would like to hear what you have to say on this. I personally believe any visible approach qualifies for #2, and any charge/growl/baring of teeth/approach closer than 10' qualifies for #3, but no doubt yours will be different. Surely your answers will be something other than "even if my loose dog is most of the way killing their toddler who did nothing to provoke it, they don't even have the right to be unhappy about it or raise their voice"?
Appalachian Tater
10-29-2007, 21:54
Let's all remember this please.
Dixi, just to be clear, I am NOT a dog-hater nor do I think that they should not be on the trail where it is allowed.
But someone has to speak up for the dogs who are in danger of being lost or injured if unleashed. The owners need to know the hazards dogs face on the trail, such as dehydration, tick-borne disease, encounters with deadly or harmful animals, etc. I find it hard to believe that a dog owner who had seen some of the starving tick-feeding troughs I saw lost in the woods would even think about allowing their canine companions to roam about unleashed.
The anger you sometimes see in this particular forum is not really about the dogs, but about irresponsible owners.
Only dogowners in favor of at least occasionally letting their dogs off-leash on public land answer them, please:
1) How do you defend experimenting with letting your dog run loose in places where there is any chance of them encountering other hikers, when you have no reason to believe those other hikers have specifically consented to you experimenting with their safety?
2) At what apparent threat level (on public lands not specifically set aside primarily for dogs to run loose) do you believe that another hiker (who does not know you or your dog) is justified in aiming either a can of bear spray or a loaded firearm at your loose dog?
3) At what apparent threat level would you believe another hiker would be justified in using bear spray or a firearm on your loose dog?
I genuinely would like to hear what you have to say on this. I personally believe any visible approach qualifies for #2, and any charge/growl/baring of teeth/approach closer than 10' qualifies for #3, but no doubt yours will be different. Surely your answers will be something other than "even if my loose dog is most of the way killing their toddler who did nothing to provoke it, they don't even have the right to be unhappy about it or raise their voice"?Oh such drama. I'll save my dramatic contribution and I will answer you questions directly:
1. First of all, I do not let my dog run loose. My dog stays within 15-20 feet max and is under verbal command. We started training him at four months on trails on my property. He was trained to first walk trails on a six foot leash. When we moved to public trails he was trained to stop upon the sight of any oncoming person and to move off the side of the trail and to sit at my side while letting the oncoming person go by. Upon learning to successfully hike loose leash (not tugging or pulling) we moved to a longer extension lease. After nearly a year of successfully hiking loose leash within the 15-20 feet that leash allowed, we gradually gave him the freedom to go off leash. Anytime he challenged the 15-20 foot limit he was immediately called back. He is very much at home on the trail and does not leave my sight. At no time was this training an experiment. My dog and I have been through multiple tested training programs. The training methods used to train him on the trail are tested and predictable. At no time has anyone's safety been jeopardized in his training. In the areas that we primarily hike, Chattahoochee NF, I might suggest it would be encumbant on you to recognize that dogs may be present and off leash. Those are the rules of the NF. You choosing to hike in this area is an acceptance of that reality and therefore your consent. Get the rules changed, and I will abide by them.
2. I would say a charging dog within 5 feet could be repelled with bear spray or hit with a hiking pole if the hiker feels truly threatened. I would only caution you to use common sense. A dog running towards you with his butt wriggling and his front paws bouncing up and down in a joyous dance is not that much of a threat. But it can be difficult for some to make that assessment so if you feel a threat, by all means protect yourself.
3. I would reserve the use of a firearm or physically stabbing with a hiking pole (deadly force) until aggressive contact has been made.
I am confident that my dog will not approach you without my (your) consent, however if he did and you felt threatened I would support your right to reasonably defend yourself in the manner of your choosing. But reasonable is in order here. Your desire to initiate defense based upon a single step towards you, and the use of deadly force from 10' away is not reasonable. Since the NF reguations allow dogs to be present off leash, I strongly recommend that if you have these unreasonable responses to dogs you find another place to hike. As many have stated, there are many places where dogs are not permitted, or if permitted must be on leash.
ChinMusic
10-29-2007, 23:01
Ditto what FatMan said, with the exception of me being able to have him on trail by 6 months old. But, I worked with him every day and his personality made it easy for both of us.
As I have said in other threads, while I love having my dog with me on weekend/day hikes, I would not have him with me on a thru.
I support a person protecting themselves if threatened. I would do the same. I DO NOT like being approached by unknown dogs either and adopt a defensive posture until proven otherwise.
Appalachian Tater
10-29-2007, 23:15
2. I would say a charging dog within 5 feet could be repelled with bear spray or hit with a hiking pole if the hiker feels truly threatened. I would only caution you to use common sense. A dog running towards you with his butt wriggling and his front paws bouncing up and down in a joyous dance is not that much of a threat. But it can be difficult for some to make that assessment so if you feel a threat, by all means protect yourself.
3. I would reserve the use of a firearm or physically stabbing with a hiking pole (deadly force) until aggressive contact has been made.
It's not fair to put me into a position of having to harm an animal because its human is stupid. (This is not directed at you since your dog is "under control".) Why should other people be forced to deal with all of this at all? It's an imposition, to say the least.
minnesotasmith
10-29-2007, 23:40
If a dog is not on a leash or behind a fence or wall it cannot pass, it is running loose, by definition.
ChinMusic
10-29-2007, 23:45
If a dog is not on a leash or behind a fence or wall it cannot pass, it is running loose, by definition.
I disagree....
It's not fair to put me into a position of having to harm an animal because its human is stupid. (This is not directed at you since your dog is "under control".) Why should other people be forced to deal with all of this at all? It's an imposition, to say the least.I can not protect dogs from stupid humans. Nor can I shield you and others from stupid humans. Fact is, for the most part stupid humans don't leash their dogs where it is required. So changing the rules to require it will only keep me, who has worked with my dog for thousands of hours, from walking with my dog off leash when I, and many other responsible dog owners are not the problem. It is no different in suburbia. We keep our dog fenced when in our Atlanta suburban home, but dogs still run the neighborhood because stupid humans allow them to do so.
I take my responsibility of having a dog on the trail very seriously. As I have stated in other posts, I have another dog who is always leashed on the trail. There is a level of obedience that is necessary allow a dog off leash, and until that level is reached she will remain leashed. And I am betting with her that will be forever.
If a dog is not on a leash or behind a fence or wall it cannot pass, it is running loose, by definition.I strongly disagree and the federal government disagrees too. They recognize the concept of verbal restraint. Please correct me if I am wrong, (as I'm sure you will) but a restrained dog by definition is not running loose. The following is quoted directly from the NF website:
If you bring your dog hiking, keep it under verbal or physical restraint at all times.http://www.fs.fed.us/conf/rec/safety.htm
A tab is a piece of material that hangs down from the collar the way a leash would. It has a ring on one end and a clasp on the other. Tabs range in size from 3-6 inches long. The idea is the tab is constantly on to enable enforcement of commands and provide a feeling like the leash is attached. The leash of whatever length is attached to the tab and not the collar.
You must decide what distance you want to train your dog to stay within. A good rule is within eyesight of you. Then you always use a leash no longer then distance. I like a range of 10-50 feet at this point but that is large for most people. Do not use a flexi-lead, no arguments this is a bad piece of equipment that will wreck good training. You want 2 circles in the dogs mind; one for heeling and the other for walking nicely. Heel should be within 3 feet or grabbing range.
With the dog on the leash, give single command i.e. hustle, let's go and do not say anything else. Begin walking to a point 2 leash lengths away. Don't interact with the dog at all, no praise, treats or corrections, just walk. If the leash goes tight or the dog doesn't follow, just keep walking, drag the dog if you must but don't stop or deviate from your goal. When you get to your goal, choose another spot and keep walking. Practice for 20 minutes a day.
Practice obedience twice a day on the same leash. Always reward come, stop/ freeze and stay. Consider doing clicker training. Master sit, down, stand, stop, come and stay at different distances from the dog.
Once both exercises are achieved without problems take the show on the road and train at dog parks and trails; Go and have a coffee at an outdoor cafe and practice sit and down stays. Keep finding new places to train.
Leashes serve a valuable purpose but there are times that my dog is offleash whether at a dog park, on the trail or walking through a mall.There are times where I can't hold the leash or attach it or it would endanger my dog- agility for example. Those times I put away the leash and rely on our off-leash training. For the record I just won a court case because my landlord wanted my service dog leashed at all times. The court ruled that my dog didn't pose a danger to the public with or without a leash attached and that my dog off leash was not an impediment to others rights.
I would stop any dog that I believed to be a danger to any person or other animal. I would reserve my bear spray, knife, gun or pole to stop an attack if need be. I would expect others to the same. I would differentiate between fear motivated defense and phobia. If the dog is posing a threat and there no other way to stop it, then I would kill. I define danger as the dog is threatening to or is causing bodily harm.
First of all, let me note that Ed is leashed always, for various reasons, mainly for his safety. There were some excellent points made here. IMO, only an extremely well trained dog should hike off-lead. Throw a floppy disk at your stealth site for off-lead fun.
If you are going to hike off leash, join a local Schutzhund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzhund) group and mountain SAR group (you should have plenty in NC). These will build the confidence and recall you are looking for.
As far as children who are already afraid of dogs, the only way I know is to first work with a dog trained for children to erase the fear, and then build the child's confidence and knowledge on how to handle any unexpected situation on the trail.
minnesotasmith
11-01-2007, 10:56
[quote=Adam B;439040]"...my landlord wanted my service dog leashed at all times. The court ruled that my dog didn't pose a danger to the public with or without a leash attached".quote]
Why didn't you just be polite and go along with his wishes? It's his property, and you are still a guest there, if a paying guest? Because he rented to you, he should have to put up with something he obviously never wanted, and probably did not anticipate would be a cost of dealing with you, which is outside unleashed dogs on his property?
I figured out long ago it's usually much better to try to get along with people you have to deal with on a long-term basis, whether commercially or that you live near (your landlord is both), rather than trying to change them. If that involves gracefully making unimportant (or even overdue desirable) changes, well, why not do them? Why avoidably go out of your way to make people not want you around, making problems for yourself?
Trying to change the world WRT its attitude about unleashed dogs (leaving aside the fact that 99.99+% of dogs will never be trained at a level that their behavior will be as nondisruptive off leash as on) reminds me of nothing so much as wacky feminists going topless in public. Their announced motivation is to be able to act exactly like men, desexualizing the human breast, trying to fundamentally change all of society, rather than taking a few seconds to put a shirt on. Likewise, I think off-leash dog fanatics would do better by themselves, their animal property, and the human society they live in, by losing the delusion that they're "special", with special privileges, and take a few seconds to put a leash on their dog when it's outside off their property. Dog leashes for when in public are neither expensive nor complicated/time-consuming to operate, so the only significant objection there can be must be the emotional trauma of letting go that unearned belief of being unique.
Uncle Silly
11-01-2007, 11:42
Trying to change the world WRT its attitude about unleashed dogs (blah blah snip...) reminds me of nothing so much as wacky feminists going topless in public.
MS, you've made your opinions about off-leash dogs perfectly clear. I think your posts are bordering on out of line for this forum. Unless you have some useful advice to give in regards to the topic at hand (training dogs for off-leash hiking), please take yourself elsewhere.
If you are unclear about what I'm saying or why, please see the following thread, especially the paragraph below.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16259
So if you plan to post here, post advice about how to backpack responsibly with the pet as a response to the question or topic.
Bootstrap
11-01-2007, 12:05
[quote=Adam B;439040]Dog leashes for when in public are neither expensive nor complicated/time-consuming to operate, so the only significant objection there can be must be the emotional trauma of letting go that unearned belief of being unique.
This may be a veiled attempt at asking why someone might want to let their dog go off-leash. It's legal, many people are doing it successfully, many are doing it irresponsibly. My dog is not ready at the point that she can go off-leash. I do find leashes a hassle when jogging or hiking, especially when I'm going for a long time. I'm not yet sure if she'll get to where I trust her off-leash.
I do let her go topless. Nobody's complained so far.
Jonathan
soulrebel
11-01-2007, 12:39
bacon bacon bacon
wrongway_08
11-01-2007, 13:27
We ran into a older hiker that had 2 VERY hyper dogs. They were off leash and while the one was small, maybe 25 lbs, the other dog was around my dogs weight, 75 lbs.
The smaller dog would run up (way before the owner was even near us) and kinda show his teeth, now I know he was play'n - being around dogs for so long but to some one not as used to dogs, they may have taken a good swipe at the dog.
The larger dog ran past me at full speed, then looped back around and kept repeating this untill the owner came by. Then as I thought it was over (both dogs and the owner had walked past) the larger dog did a few more high speed passs to make sure we didnt follow them (I guess???).
I love dogs and know that these dogs were not try'n to hurt us but as big as his 2nd dog was and as fast as it was going, that sucker nearly knocked me on my ass when he grazed me while running by.
The smaller dog did get a little bit of hiking pole to the neck - not the point of the pole but rather a push against the side of his neck by the hiking poles bottom shaft, just to help let him know to back off a little.
The larger dog got my knee in jaw, just enough to guide him more to the path and less into my space. The dog was just really hyper and wanted to burn off some energy by doing laps around us.
The owner did nothing to control them, even after watching myself and Sparky having to redirect the dogs manners. These dogs should have been worn out a little before being allowed on the trail or the owner should have had them on leashes untill they calmed down.
If it was a father/young child hiking - instead of me and Sparky - I am sure the father would have been harder on those dogs then just a gentle nudge in the right direction lke we did to them.
I think Sparky and I did the right thing as far as tryn to control this guys dog for him. At the same time if it was a father/young child together, I would also see it okay for the father to fully engage the dogs with a hard foot and a good size hit with a heavy stick - due to the possibility of the child getting hurt by these fun loving yet way too hyper dogs.
My point, it depends on the dogs, this guys dogs should have been on a leash with people around - at least untill they calmed down.
I keep my dog on a leash any time he is out, unless we are alone or with friends/family that are use to him and dont mind his youthfull playfullness.
ChinMusic
11-01-2007, 13:47
My point, it depends on the dogs, this guys dogs should have been on a leash with people around
No doubt.
If you can't control your dogs any better than that, leave them at home or leash them.
Lone Wolf
11-01-2007, 13:50
The AT was built for people. All dogs should be leashed at all times on the trail and at shelter areas if you choose to bring one. that simple
ChinMusic
11-01-2007, 13:57
The AT was built for people. All dogs should be leashed at all times on the trail and at shelter areas if you choose to bring one. that simple
Glad no one has made you king.....
Lone Wolf
11-01-2007, 14:00
Glad no one has made you king.....
dogs belong on leashes on the trail.
ChinMusic
11-01-2007, 14:12
dogs belong on leashes on the trail.
And since you are NOT king, I will take your opinion for what it is worth.....
Lone Wolf
11-01-2007, 14:14
And since you are NOT king, I will take your opinion for what it is worth.....
dogs belong on leashes on the trail
minnesotasmith
11-01-2007, 14:49
I find that very hard to believe. It would take a major jerk not to leash their dog upon request. Any dog owner I know would gladly do so.
During my 9+ months on the AT last year, I can attest that large percentages of people will refuse to leash their loose dogs when requested to, no matter how threatening their property's behavior. Males were worse than women this way, with people under age 55 (especially if under 25) worse than retiree-age, apparent (going by attire/hair) punkish/counterculture types and rednecks worse than clean-cut/upper-middle-class, and minorities (the few I saw) worse than whites. However, every general type of person I saw on the Trail (young white male, young white female, old white male, old white female, etc.) had "representatives" that not only would do nothing about their threatening dog's behavior (growling, circling, bluff charging, etc.), they were deeply offended that someone would even politely suggest that they take steps to alter their animal's obnoxious behavior.
This is fact. This is what I saw.
Significant, even large, percentages of dog owners that hang around the AT and/or hike on the AT A) let their dogs loose when B) untrained and C) inclined to be threatening, D) won't leash them when asked to, and E) give every indication of not giving a rat's *** when they see their dogs on the verge of attacking an innocent person with intent to cause great bodily harm.
Bootstrap
11-01-2007, 14:57
Here's my summary of the thread so far:
1. Some people think dogs belong on-leash, period. These people tend to doubt that dogs can be reliably kept under control without a leash, or believe that dogs off-leash will hassle other people, and that their owners won't be able to prevent this.
2. Some people think that dogs should be kept in sight and under verbal control, period. These people believe that it is also possible to do so. Some of these people also believe that a dog that is under verbal control should not be allowed to approach other people without their owner's permission.
3. Everyone agrees that many dogs are out of control, get lost, hassle other people, are generally rude, or whatever, and that irresponsible owners are to blame. I haven't heard anyone suggest that this is OK. It's bad for the dogs, and it's bad for the people on the trail. Some people seem to suggest that this means position 2 is untenable.
Beyond that, I've heard some good discussion of techniques for teaching dogs, and some discussion of how to leash dogs so the leashes are a little less disruptive.
Is there anything new to say? A lot of the recent discussion seems to consist of repeating positions 1 or 2 more and more loudly, implying that anyone who disagrees is morally defect and probably has bad breath, and that the person posting the message is absolutely right and alone able to judge in these matters. I'm seeing that on both sides, I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular.
Jonathan
warraghiyagey
11-01-2007, 15:00
[quote=Adam B;439040. . . reminds me of nothing so much as wacky feminists going topless in public. Their announced motivation is to be able to act exactly like men, desexualizing the human breast, trying to fundamentally change all of society, rather than taking a few seconds to put a shirt on. . .
From someone who yesterday wrote that two of the first things he does when seeing a girl on the trail is stare at her chest. Which brings me to my next point.
dogs belong on leashes on the trail
Dogs might not be the only critters that need to be leashed when on the trail, or amid the populace.
ChinMusic
11-01-2007, 15:05
The AT must ATTRACT bad dog owners as I have NEVER had a bad encounter with a dog in the field, NEVER.
How can MY experience be so different from those that claim they "can attest that large percentages of people will refuse to leash their loose dogs when requested to, no matter how threatening their property's behavior"?
How can one have never had a bad experience and another poster claim something diametrically opposite? I simply see a bias that has no merit and will take it as such.
I'd be happy to assist anyone needing help or advice on training their dog for the trail. But let's take it offline. Send a PM or email.
This thread has ran its course.
shelterbuilder
11-01-2007, 16:09
We need to remember that we are talking about a creature which, by instinct, will continue to react to its environment in the same way, time after time, until logical restraints are imposed upon it by outside forces in a way that it can understand.
I'm talking about the "bad" dog owner, not the dog.
minnesotasmith
11-01-2007, 17:22
Dogs might not be the only critters that need to be leashed when on the trail, or amid the populace.
Yeah, like all outside cats. ;)
Good thing I'm a human being, then, and not a critter. Neither have I broken squat of Constitutional laws, so am not a criminal either. Only the latter, including all illegal aliens, or the legally insane should be locked up, according to longstanding U.S. law.
BTW, warraghiyagey, why is your profile gone from trailjournals? Did you quit a thruhike attempt partway along, the site hosts take it down, or what?
Appalachian Tater
11-01-2007, 17:31
I think it bears repeating that service dogs are not pets and are not bound to the same rules of leashing or being excluded from food service or other public accomodations.
It also is a good idea for dog owners to remember that other people don't know you or your dog. If your dog is under verbal control rather than leash control, please tell us in some clear manner so we don't have to prepare to protect ourselves. Maybe, "my dog is under verbal control that is as good as being leashed" or something. That might help some.
Also remember that there aren't so many dogs that are truly under verbal control, the owners just think they are harmless.
The AT must ATTRACT bad dog owners as I have NEVER had a bad encounter with a dog in the field, NEVER.
How can MY experience be so different from those that claim they "can attest that large percentages of people will refuse to leash their loose dogs when requested to, no matter how threatening their property's behavior"?
How can one have never had a bad experience and another poster claim something diametrically opposite? I simply see a bias that has no merit and will take it as such.
Come to Maine and hike.
No doubt.
If you can't control your dogs any better than that, leave them at home or leash them.
More than welcome to come to Maine and hike.
Sometime in the 90's dog ownership increased greatly. It takes more than food and water to have a dog.
After having blood drawn by a jumping dog, I am all done with that. Slobber was bad enough.
I saw an elegant animal today, well-trained. Bright eyed, smiled at me.
I am screwed tomorrow.
the goat
11-01-2007, 21:07
I would love to take my dog with me when I run through the woods or hike or go backpacking.
But off-leash, she runs away. She's young and obedient enough to train, but I'm reluctant to let her get away too often while training her to go off-leash.
How should I train her?
Jonathan
even "obedient" dogs will go astray, i know from experience.
just be careful where you test the "leash-less hiking" because you could get chased by a big sow black bear......again, i know from experience.:eek:
warraghiyagey
11-02-2007, 04:14
. . .
BTW, warraghiyagey, why is your profile gone from trailjournals? Did you quit a thruhike attempt partway along, the site hosts take it down, or what?
Actually, I haven't entered anything yet. I'm kind of quirky when it comes to editing and releasing certain writings. I want my trailjournals to be well written, so I'll make sure they are before I post them.
ChimneySpring
11-02-2007, 09:38
Also remember that there aren't so many dogs that are truly under verbal control, the owners just think they are harmless.
Amen. Seems like a lot of people consider "under verbal control" to mean "stop it fido, get down, don't do that, get away from there, come back here".
SGT Rock
11-02-2007, 09:41
Amen. Seems like a lot of people consider "under verbal control" to mean "stop it fido, get down, don't do that, get away from there, come back here".
That has been my experience. Also, don't foget the "Chill out man" as you defend yourself from the snarling dog.
leeki pole
11-02-2007, 10:11
Again, a few bad owners spoil the whole bunch. A lot of us spend literally hundreds of hours training our companions. But the Trail seems to be sacred, for some reason. Or the hikers think they are so privileged.
Chip and I will find other places to hike. We don't want to offend you.:cool:
Happy trails. Peace, out.
Appalachian Tater
11-02-2007, 11:49
But the Trail seems to be sacred, for some reason. Or the hikers think they are so privileged.
Chip and I will find other places to hike. We don't want to offend you.:cool:
Happy trails. Peace, out.
Yes, the trail should be a sacred bite-free zone and I think I am entitled to that. And the same goes on all trails. Peace out.
Also, don't foget the "Chill out man" as you defend yourself from the snarling dog.
Yeah, why would someone seem surprised that you're irritated about a pack of three large unleashed barking dogs charging up the boardwalk at you then preventing passage with barks and growls and snaps? Chill out man or the equivalent is indeed the cherry on top.
Lone Wolf
11-02-2007, 11:52
Again, a few bad owners spoil the whole bunch. A lot of us spend literally hundreds of hours training our companions. But the Trail seems to be sacred, for some reason. Or the hikers think they are so privileged.
Chip and I will find other places to hike. We don't want to offend you.:cool:
Happy trails. Peace, out.
The AT was built for humans to walk, not for dogs, horses, llamas, bicycles etc. War, out
camojack
11-02-2007, 11:58
The AT was built for humans to walk, not for dogs, horses, llamas, bicycles etc. War, out
Yet another argument for the use of trekking poles? :eek:
Dakota Dan
11-02-2007, 12:21
Most dog owners who take Fido to the trail probably don't even own a leash, could care less what we as hikers think, and will continue to act as such. Most serious trouble I've had were the dogs at peoples homes/farms when I hike passed. Until I have a dog big enough to ride on, he'll stay at home with momma.
SGT Rock
11-02-2007, 12:25
Yes, the trail should be a sacred bite-free zone and I think I am entitled to that. And the same goes on all trails. Peace out.
Yeah, why would someone seem surprised that you're irritated about a pack of three large unleashed barking dogs charging up the boardwalk at you then preventing passage with barks and growls and snaps? Chill out man or the equivalent is indeed the cherry on top.
How did you know it was three dogs? LOL
But for me it was not on the boardwalk, but on a piece of trail I maintain. Not only were they blocking me, they were doing that standard circle manuver and multi points of attack mode. The owner walked up as I was figuring out which one to knock in the head first. "Chill out man!" is apparently the command he was trying that day to control his dogs that were off leash.
Dakota Dan
11-02-2007, 12:29
"Chill out Man" could be changed to have him say "Don't Taz Me Bro"..hehe
Appalachian Tater
11-02-2007, 13:04
They would have surrounded me if we hadn't been on the boardwalk. Because of the boardwalk, I was able to keep them at bay with my poles. After I passed, they apparently let the dogs of the leash again and they attacked two kids I had passed who were out playing by themselves from the houses next to the marshy area because I heard the dogs barking and the guys yelling at them. They hadn't been in much hurry to leash them when I encountered them, I had to ask twice and yell once using foul language.
And yes, Dakota Dan, if I could have tazed the owners, I probably would have. Idiots. Of course, there were big, legible signs at each end of the boardwalk saying that dogs had to be leashed at all times.
Dakota Dan
11-02-2007, 13:20
Again, a few bad owners spoil the whole bunch...
From my readings, I would say it's a LOT of "Bad Owners" that spoil it for the few good ones.
I'm curious to know what your feelings are concerning the National Parks and State Parks that do not allow unleashed dogs? I know GSMNP will not allow them even on a leash when hiking the AT. Are their reasons sound ones?
ChinMusic
11-02-2007, 13:24
I'm curious to know what your feelings are concerning the National Parks and State Parks that do not allow unleashed dogs? I know GSMNP will not allow them even on a leash when hiking the AT. Are their reasons sound ones?
IMO, no, but I respect their rules.
Dakota Dan
11-02-2007, 13:47
The post here at WB concerning dogs, leashed or unleashed, should be read by the other dog owners(and most likely the majority) who travel the AT. When I say "Other" I mean those who probably don't even have a computer(can't read anyway) and most likely haven't figured out what the white marks on the trees are for. As I said earlier, A lot of bad dog owners in lieu of a few good ones. Also, a lot of dogs travel the trail from nearby homes, wonder if they have a computer?
dixicritter
11-02-2007, 14:09
Looks like y'all still want to turn this into a debate on bad dog owners instead of giving practical information on hiking with a dog.
It's time to go to commercial.