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mozzie
10-28-2007, 02:12
i have been collecting food for two years.this is free food postage is all it will cost.three cases of tvp,beef and chicken,two cases eggs,all #10 cans,10 banana boxes of miss. box full of bubble gum,pasta ,the best is dry dumplings, just like pasta but stick to your ribs good. the problem is just how many food drops are possible within reason?
the best is the oatmeal i have 3 cases of 28 boxes.heartsmart the good stuff,i plan to give a lot of it away. what do you think

EWS
10-28-2007, 02:25
One, but that is just one white boy's opinion.

For more indepth info check this out: LINK (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/articles/resupplybook.pdf)

Lilred
10-28-2007, 02:57
I would mail my drops to the places I planned on staying, hostels, hotels... Rarely did I send one to a post office. I section the AT and waiting for Monday to arrive if getting to town on a Saturday would have drove me nuts.
some people will say you can't send too much, others will say one is too much. If you've already got the food, I'd use as many maildrops as necessary till the food was gone.

minnesotasmith
10-28-2007, 03:22
Well, Pirate would say the correct answer is zero, as none of them will possibly get there. ;) (Leaving aside that I had over 25 mail drops on my thruhike last year, ALL of which I did receive...)

I would say that the # depends mainly on how specific your food requirements are. If you can live with what Joe Bob's Convenience Store in Deliverance, Maine will have, then half a dozen is fine IMO. There are places like Neels Gap, Monson, Fontana, Kincora, and much of New England where mail drops are a real blessing to have done, but you can get by with very few.

The order of preference for where to send a mail drop IMO are, from best to worst:

Hostel you'll be staying at (open 24 hours/day, 7 days/week)

Outfitter (open 7 days a week, usually, but not 24 hours/day)

Post Office (open 5-6 days/week, limited hours, plus often inconvenient location for hikers, esp if not in tiny town, but that means even worse hours)
================================================
You're also going to want to use drops to exchange or replace gear. Switching from winter to summer gear in S. VA, and back again in Glencliff, are typical.

Whatever you do, DON'T seal your mail drops ahead of time. You will develop cravings and revulsion for various trail foods that you can't guess at ahead of time. Plus, this way you can have your support person add in replacement gear as needed.

warraghiyagey
10-28-2007, 05:22
Hoping you have someone off trail to help you out. If so, try your first three or four planned stops for mail drops. After that you'll find yor rythym and become familiar with town stops, prices etc. Also, the pace you plan to keep will doubtfully match the one you come to agree with the trail with, sending too far ahead may cause headaches for you while you're trying to enjoy yor hike.
If you now have enough food for the whole trip, disregard the above but I'm thinking expiration date and a growing disenchantment with your options.

Smile
10-28-2007, 08:23
This really doesn't answer your question ( I guess it's a very individual thing) but I can share a few ideas.

In 06 I had too many to start with, I actually lost a great pair of Frogg Toggs that I had sent forward, and completely forgot about when I ended up off trail with an injury.

At mountain crossings I got my first box, and ended up giving away most of the cool stuff I had sent myself (food wise).

On a 30 day section in 05, Rubberbandman and I planned for a drop at Harper's Ferry, and got to the P.O. a few minutes after they closed, and that was a total drag.

I plan on using them very sporadically, or "on demand" from home a week or so ahead if I need anything.

Fiddler
10-28-2007, 08:49
There's a lot of food in those #10 cans, and they have a very long shelf life. But before you open them and begin making individual meals with them check on how long the food stays good after the can is opened. You don't want to prepare too much in advance and then can't use it.

rafe
10-28-2007, 08:57
the problem is just how many food drops are possible within reason?

Wrong question. The question should be, why have ANY? What exactly will you need on the trail that you can't buy locally?

Oatmeal? Pasta? You've got to be kidding. Hiker boxes from GA to ME are overflowing with the stuff.

Speaking for myself, the main thing mail drops are good for these days are maps. The ATC maps are heavy. Mail drops are a pain. Try to minimize them. Use them specifically for items that you absolutely need but cannot buy locally.

Lone Wolf
10-28-2007, 09:23
i have been collecting food for two years.this is free food postage is all it will cost.three cases of tvp,beef and chicken,two cases eggs,all #10 cans,10 banana boxes of miss. box full of bubble gum,pasta ,the best is dry dumplings, just like pasta but stick to your ribs good. the problem is just how many food drops are possible within reason?
the best is the oatmeal i have 3 cases of 28 boxes.heartsmart the good stuff,i plan to give a lot of it away. what do you think

your chances of hiking the whole trail are slim. buy as you go. no mail drops

superman
10-28-2007, 09:38
your chances of hiking the whole trail are slim. buy as you go. no mail drops


The above is the clear and simple answer. On the other hand, some people received stuff in care packages that I envied. A world-class napper got small bottles of alcohol that he shared with his fellow hikers (great man :) ). Couples got interesting, frivolous but some times useful stuff. Then there were all those packages that just got emptied into the hiker boxes... thanks for the free re-supply. Oh yeah, then there is the one person who can actually make mail drops work.

bigcranky
10-28-2007, 15:10
Mozzie did say in the original post that all the food was free. Telling him to buy it along the way is nice (and there are generally good reasons for doing so), but free food is free food. Sure, he can get oatmeal anywhere, but he already has it. If all he needs is postage, that's not a bad thing.

So, to sum up:

1. Have someone pack and mail the boxes as needed, rather than mailing them all to yourself before you hike;
2. Mail them to hostels, rather than post offices, where possible;
3. Be careful about shelf life of canned items after the cans are opened;
4. Be aware that your tastes may change over the course of the hike;
5. Be willing to supplement your maildrops with food you buy in town.

Appalachian Tater
10-28-2007, 15:21
Donate those powdered eggs to a homeless shelter or something. Yuk!

Just a Hiker
10-28-2007, 15:25
Hey there Mozzie. Of course the stuff in #10 cans and the bubble gum won't not do you much good on the trail; however, the rest you could use in your mail drops if thats your plan. Those dumplings sound interesting.

Just Jim

katagious
10-28-2007, 17:39
I'd take the stuff in the #10 cans and dehydrate them.

Blissful
10-28-2007, 18:23
I'd take the stuff in the #10 cans and dehydrate them.

Good idea. We dehydrated chicken from cans, no problem. Also beef - minced and dried in the oven to add to meals.

Agree though you can find oatmeal and pastas in bounce boxes. Mail drops are good for having meals made up that you prepackage yourself (ATC has a great cookbook) esp if you want more nutritious well balanced food and / or you get bored with the usual staples of Ramen, mac and cheese and potato mixes. You will need someone on the home front to help, though. And that is a good way to get a good friend or family member involved with your hike.

Jack T has a resupply article which can help decide where you need boxes and where you don't. There are areas that have very little or very expensive supplies or you spend time hitching and scrounging or walking to get food.

Just a Hiker
10-28-2007, 18:26
I'd take the stuff in the #10 cans and dehydrate them.

I misread your original post, I didn't realize the stuff was meat. I thought it might creamed corn or something!! My bad! Dehydrate away! :D

mozzie
10-29-2007, 14:17
the stuff in the cans is tvp. pure protien.half chix half beef.the chix can be pork with pork bullion. it is already dehidrated.tvp is the same stuff you eat in ravioli ,chef boardi,cant spell it,spag. and meatballs in a can.the things you can do with it is unlimited.just imagine the posibilitys.im going to open the cans and seal a meal any number of dinners out of it.

mozzie
10-29-2007, 14:26
about the dumplings,southern style.tvp can be found at any health food store.but a can or pouch of chix will do
bring water to a boil,with your chix ,chix bullion lots of pepper and salt.parsly and torn up or sliced tortilias flour.bring to good boil.then let sit.do this over and over,until the tortilias gets thick and puffy ad alittle pot. flakes to make it stick to your ribbs mmmmmmm home cookin in the middle of the woods

minnesotasmith
10-29-2007, 18:11
the stuff in the cans is tvp. pure protien.half chix half beef.the chix can be pork with pork bullion. it is already dehidrated.tvp is the same stuff you eat in ravioli ,chef boardi,cant spell it,spag. and meatballs in a can.the things you can do with it is unlimited.just imagine the posibilitys.im going to open the cans and seal a meal any number of dinners out of it.

Humans, especially males, should limit or avoid soy products, of which TVP is one. The estrogen analogues, the nutrient-blocking components -- surely no one here is so broke that they can't be at least a little selective about their diet from a health perspective. (TVP has excessive sodium, too, BTW.)

rafe
10-29-2007, 18:30
Humans, especially males, should limit or avoid soy products, of which TVP is one.

Do you have a cite for this claim, MS? It sounds like BS to me.

Kirby
10-29-2007, 20:58
I am personally quite fond of soy products.

Kirby

Appalachian Tater
10-29-2007, 22:13
Do you have a cite for this claim, MS? It sounds like BS to me.

Somone complained that an endocrinologist had insufficient scientific credentials to comment on global warming.

Similarly, might it be that a geologist should not be looked to as a source of knowledge about plant "estrogen" and its effects on the human body?

rafe
10-29-2007, 22:22
MS's remarks remind me of Col. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove.

Ripper: Mandrake?
Mandrake: Yes, Jack?
Ripper: Have you ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water?
Mandrake: Well, I can't say I have.
Ripper: Vodka, that's what they drink, isn't it? Never water?
Mandrake: Well, I-I believe that's what they drink, Jack, yes.
Ripper: On no account will a Commie ever drink water, and not without good reason.
Mandrake: Oh, eh, yes. I, uhm, can't quite see what you're getting at, Jack.
Ripper: Water, that's what I'm getting at, water. Mandrake, water is the source of all life. Seven-tenths of this earth's surface is water. Why, do you realize that seventy percent of you is water?
Mandrake: Uh, uh, Good Lord!
Ripper: And as human beings, you and I need fresh, pure water to replenish our precious bodily fluids.
Mandrake: Yes. (he begins to chuckle nervously)
Ripper: Are you beginning to understand?
Mandrake: Yes. (more laughter)
Ripper: Mandrake. Mandrake, have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water, or rain water, and only pure-grain alcohol?
Mandrake: Well, it did occur to me, Jack, yes.
Ripper: Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation. Fluoridation of water?
Mandrake: Uh? Yes, I-I have heard of that, Jack, yes. Yes.
Ripper: Well, do you know what it is?
Mandrake: No, no I don't know what it is, no.
Ripper: Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?

....

EWS
10-29-2007, 23:48
Humans, especially males, should limit or avoid soy products, of which TVP is one. The estrogen analogues, the nutrient-blocking components -- surely no one here is so broke that they can't be at least a little selective about their diet from a health perspective. (TVP has excessive sodium, too, BTW.)


Do you have a cite for this claim, MS? It sounds like BS to me.

Betcha a dollar he has at least one.

minnesotasmith
10-30-2007, 00:21
Somone complained that an endocrinologist had insufficient scientific credentials to comment on global warming.

Similarly, might it be that a geologist should not be looked to as a source of knowledge about plant "estrogen" and its effects on the human body?

How about this information for you (that you probably had no inkling of):

I was a pre-med for 3 years as an undergraduate, graduating with a biology minor. I have worked for about 5 years in biotech (ran the lab at two fuel ethanol plants, both of which ran on food waste, plus other fermentation and food science work at Cargill and General Mills), publishing two relevant papers in technical journals. Then, there are the two biotech patents I have worked on, and my hundreds of pounds of professional papers and books on the subject I acquired to make a start on a professional library.

Appalachian Tater
10-30-2007, 00:31
How about this information for you (that you probably had no inkling of):

I was a pre-med for 3 years as an undergraduate, graduating with a biology minor. I have worked for about 5 years in biotech (ran the lab at two fuel ethanol plants, both of which ran on food waste, plus other fermentation and food science work at Cargill and General Mills), publishing two relevant papers in technical journals. Then, there are the two biotech patents I have worked on, and my hundreds of pounds of professional papers and books on the subject I acquired to make a start on a professional library.

Listen, dude, I saw all the stuff you were carrying on your thru-hike spread out in that shelter north of Pearisburg. You can't fool me!

minnesotasmith
10-30-2007, 00:41
Listen, dude, I saw all the stuff you were carrying on your thru-hike spread out in that shelter north of Pearisburg. You can't fool me!

*** does THAT mean?

BTW, I probably ate more nutritiously on the Trail than 90% of other thruhikers last year. How many carried dried sushi-grade seaweed and freeze-dried spinach and broccoli, and never cooked ONE Ramen their whole hike?

Appalachian Tater
10-30-2007, 00:59
How many carried dried sushi-grade seaweed and freeze-dried spinach and broccoli,

No wonder you needed so much toilet paper.

You eat seaweed and you're concerned about people eating soy products and bitch about the food at Elmers?

EWS
10-30-2007, 01:01
Are you drunk tater?

Appalachian Tater
10-30-2007, 01:03
Are you drunk tater?

No, I rarely drink. I was a little tipsy Saturday night. Why do you ask?

EWS
10-30-2007, 01:10
Your posts in this thread are less coherent and non-confluent than usual, even though I know you're just trying to rib MS.

Appalachian Tater
10-30-2007, 01:12
Your posts in this thread are less coherent and non-confluent than usual, even though I know you're just trying to rib MS.

Lock it down.

warraghiyagey
10-30-2007, 02:31
How about this information for you (that you probably had no inkling of):

I was a pre-med for 3 years as an undergraduate, graduating with a biology minor. I have worked for about 5 years in biotech (ran the lab at two fuel ethanol plants, both of which ran on food waste, plus other fermentation and food science work at Cargill and General Mills), publishing two relevant papers in technical journals. Then, there are the two biotech patents I have worked on, and my hundreds of pounds of professional papers and books on the subject I acquired to make a start on a professional library.

And the winner of the 'Look how great I am and everything I've done' award goes to. . . .

warraghiyagey
10-30-2007, 02:33
How about this information for you (that you probably had no inkling of):

I was a pre-med for 3 years as an undergraduate, graduating with a biology minor. I have worked for about 5 years in biotech (ran the lab at two fuel ethanol plants, both of which ran on food waste, plus other fermentation and food science work at Cargill and General Mills), publishing two relevant papers in technical journals. Then, there are the two biotech patents I have worked on, and my hundreds of pounds of professional papers and books on the subject I acquired to make a start on a professional library.


"I am on of the noticeable ones, notice me. . . notice me
I am one of the noticeable ones, notice me." -
Missing Persons - Spring Session M

minnesotasmith
10-30-2007, 03:06
And the winner of the 'Look how great I am and everything I've done' award goes to. . . .

I was asked what my credentials were to comment upon food science. I gave the courtesy of responding (more politely than the question was asked, I might add).

Out of curiosity, what have you accomplished in life, outside the Trail?

SGT Rock
10-30-2007, 07:38
OK, so we have MS credentials out of the way. Is there a reference you can point us to on-line to read about this. This is sort of an interesting topic.

Hopefully something that is peer reviewed. I just did a google and don't trust most of what I read. "Soy Is Making Kids 'Gay'" was one of them.

Bootstrap
10-30-2007, 08:24
Donate those powdered eggs to a homeless shelter or something. Yuk!

My dad actually likes those. Two weeks ago he was reminiscing about powdered eggs, asking if maybe we could bring them on the next hike ...

I have awful memories of powdered eggs in Boy Scouts.

Jonathan

AT-HITMAN2005
10-30-2007, 08:28
i never ate ramen on my hike....

rafe
10-30-2007, 08:57
MS, still waiting on the cite for the "humans shouldn't eat soy products" notion. Citing your credentials doesn't count.

superman
10-30-2007, 09:44
My dad actually likes those. Two weeks ago he was reminiscing about powdered eggs, asking if maybe we could bring them on the next hike ...

I have awful memories of powdered eggs in Boy Scouts.

Jonathan

In "65" powdered eggs were green...they must have gotten better since then?

Appalachian Tater
10-30-2007, 11:01
I was asked what my credentials were to comment upon food science. I gave the courtesy of responding (more politely than the question was asked, I might add).

Actually, you weren't directly asked. And just so you know, a snippy remark from you regarding my lack of politeness doesn't exactly wound when placed in context of your well-known views regarding some of your fellow humans that don't share all of your characteristics.

I have studied the research on phytoestrogens in the context of osteoporosis prevention. And it wasn't 25 years ago, either, back when academic achievement was measured in pounds of paper.

My current opinion is that if they affect breast cancer, for example, there are more important factors involved, if you compare populations based on soy consumption. Still, if someone has estrogen-dependent cancer, they should avoid soy products pending further research.

Pirate
10-30-2007, 13:46
Minnesota Smith answered for me. Mail drops are a waste of time and money. Resuppling on the trail is easy.

Lone Wolf
10-30-2007, 13:47
Minnesota Smith answered for me. Mail drops are a waste of time and money. Resuppling on the trail is easy.

i second that motion :banana

Footslogger
10-30-2007, 13:56
[quote=mozzie;436290] the problem is just how many food drops are possible within reason?
============================================

There's no right/wrong answer to your question. The way you posed the question though ...my answer would be "as many as you are willing to deal with".

There a couple issues with maildrops in general. First is that you have to stay on track in order to link up with them when you want/need them. Second is that you will no doubt get sick and tired of some/all that food you bought up front.

Unless you have special dietary needs it is possible to pretty much "buy as you go" nowadays. But that's probably not what you want to hear after accumulating all that food.

'Slogger

SGT Rock
10-30-2007, 14:01
Something to contemplate is sending what you do have as a part of a mail drop, but not trying to make your entire re-supply a mail drop. For example: If you like to make killer jerky or dried fruits, then send them to yourself and supplement that with local purchase. That way you get some variety but you also get some of your personal likes.

Dakota Dan
10-30-2007, 19:25
your chances of hiking the whole trail are slim. buy as you go. no mail drops


If going solo I'd agree. Since I'll have a nephew to fetch mail-drops from the PO it may work out better and cheaper. I want to travel with a minimal of inconvenience. I'm looking at taking and sharing a wood burning camp stove so I don't have to fool with store bought fuels. No cell phones or electronics, just LED lights. I've also been trying to figure out if shipping eggs in our mail drops is going to fly. Haven't decided on this one.

Lone Wolf
10-30-2007, 20:50
I've also been trying to figure out if shipping eggs in our mail drops is going to fly. Haven't decided on this one.

shipping eggs is totally not needed. there's plenty of places to get fresh eggs

Blissful
10-30-2007, 21:49
If going solo I'd agree. Since I'll have a nephew to fetch mail-drops from the PO it may work out better and cheaper. I want to travel with a minimal of inconvenience. I'm looking at taking and sharing a wood burning camp stove so I don't have to fool with store bought fuels. No cell phones or electronics, just LED lights. I've also been trying to figure out if shipping eggs in our mail drops is going to fly. Haven't decided on this one.

I really thought trying to get fuel cans would be a pain. No problem down south. A few places up north we did mail them, no problem. Loved having my pocket rocket and used it the whole hike.

And yes, buy your eggs on the trail if you really want them. Actually I would wait until you hit towns and have breakfast. Cooking at times can be a pain on the trail, esp a thru hike when you are making miles, etc., and get there exhausted or you're freezing cold and just want to get into your sleeping bag and konk out. I was glad for simple meals. And you don't want the pain of cleaning out an eggie pan, which I think is worse than a mashed potato pan, esp if you don't get to it and the egg dries on. But whatever works for you.

BTW - my hubby loves taking drinks of my soy milk. I tease him about it though. :)

A-Train
10-31-2007, 00:15
Here's something to think about that is rarely talked about on the AT. Sending maildrops from the trail while hiking. This is done regularly on the PCT. It's beneficial because
1) it's expensive to send food across the country (and pointless).
2) you don't know whether you'll make it to said town. There's always a possibility of getting injured or quitting.

Though admittedly this is time consuming and may not be what you wanna do on your zero day. I suggest doing it from a town that has a good market and somewhere that you plan to spend some time at.

I'd send a Fontana Drop (if skipping the Hoch's) from Hiawasee or Franklin.
I'd send a Harpers Ferry box to the ATC office from Waynesboro.
I'd send a Port Clinton box from Duncannon
Maybe send a box to Glencliff from Hanover, though I don't think a food drop is mandatory here
Maybe send an Andover box from Hanover or Gorham if you're taking it slow.

Something to think about. Will definately save you money, you'll eat what you want and you'll cut down on the pre-hike prep

SGT Rock
10-31-2007, 07:42
That actually sounds like a good idea.

CoyoteWhips
10-31-2007, 09:11
And yes, buy your eggs on the trail if you really want them. Actually I would wait until you hit towns and have breakfast. Cooking at times can be a pain on the trail...

Seems like it'd be easy enough to hard boil up to four eggs in an Imusa cup -- just did a couple on the supercat, just to test -- would you carry some for a quick snack? I think they'd be ok to the end of day.

Cookerhiker
10-31-2007, 09:46
.......BTW, I probably ate more nutritiously on the Trail than 90% of other thruhikers last year. How many carried dried sushi-grade seaweed and freeze-dried spinach and broccoli, and never cooked ONE Ramen their whole hike?

I haven't thruhiked but have done several 100+ mile section hikes necessitating resupply. I never eat Ramen noodles, my daily oatmeal is made at home with plain oats, cracked wheat, flax meal, spice, and a little sugar - not the packaged expensive sweet crap sold in stores. I prefer whole grain pastas, rice, and bulgur wheat for my dinners. My dehydrated vegetables are inexpensive and come from an Amish store. And that's why I like maildrops.

Pirate
10-31-2007, 13:36
*** does THAT mean?

BTW, I probably ate more nutritiously on the Trail than 90% of other thruhikers last year. How many carried dried sushi-grade seaweed and freeze-dried spinach and broccoli, and never cooked ONE Ramen their whole hike?

Who would want to eat dried out sushi seaweed when there are better food offerings like pork chops, steaks, bacon and french fries.

Jim Adams
10-31-2007, 13:41
you need 2...one south of PA and one north of PA!

Have friends or family send a surprise goodie box to lift your spirits...everything else can be bought along the way.

geek

Blissful
10-31-2007, 13:53
Seems like it'd be easy enough to hard boil up to four eggs in an Imusa cup -- just did a couple on the supercat, just to test -- would you carry some for a quick snack? I think they'd be ok to the end of day.


You're right, that would be good. Boiled eggs don't keep as long as fresh, though, but should be fine in the cooler times of the hike.

Blissful
10-31-2007, 13:55
Who would want to eat dried out sushi seaweed when there are better food offerings like pork chops, steaks, bacon and french fries.


Ha ha!! That is too funny.
My hubby loves sushi, but raw fish on the trail is a little too much. We left the bamboo sushi wrapper rolls at home. :)

Mad Hatter 08
10-31-2007, 22:51
Who would want to eat dried out sushi seaweed when there are better food offerings like pork chops, steaks, bacon and french fries.

I love dried nori. you can buy it at the asian markets an it's really good for a little snack when it's dry it's very crunchy and good. Thanks for the idea that'll definitely be a care package must.

mozzie
11-01-2007, 01:01
wasabi peas yum
this thread has gone to hell in back what a hoot.a question i should have never ask in the first place . mail dropps should be few .but i am sitting on a ton of food.i will probibly drop a lot in the hiker boxes.

rafe
11-01-2007, 01:04
wasabi peas yum

Awesome hiking food. :D

minnesotasmith
11-01-2007, 03:07
OK, so we have MS credentials out of the way. Is there a reference you can point us to on-line to read about this. This is sort of an interesting topic.

Hopefully something that is peer reviewed. I just did a google and don't trust most of what I read. "Soy Is Making Kids 'Gay'" was one of them.

From a Food and Drug Administration article: http://www.fda.gov/Fdac/features/2000/300_soy.html

"...specific components of soy, such as the soy isoflavones daidzein and genistein, not the whole food or intact soy protein.

The problem, researchers say, is that isoflavones are phytoestrogens, a weak form of estrogen that could have a drug-like effect in the body. This may be pronounced in postmenopausal women, and some studies suggest that high isoflavone levels might increase the risk of cancer, particularly breast cancer..."

(And, how many guys here want to increase their intake of estrogens, which are female hormones?)
================================================== ==
From an internal letter at the FDA between scientists about soy, that was on ABC News:

http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Lsoy2.htm

"some of the isoflavones found in soy, including genistein and equol, a metabolize of daidzen, demonstrate toxicity in estrogen sensitive tissues and in the thyroid. This is true for a number of species, including humans.
Additionally, the adverse effects in humans occur in several tissues and, apparently, by several distinct mechanisms. Genistein is clearly estrogenic; it possesses the chemical structural features necessary for estrogenic activity ( Sheehan and Medlock, 1995; Tong, et al, 1997; Miksicek, 1998) and induces estrogenic responses in developing and adult animals and in adult humans.

...estrogens are important for maintenance of brain function in women; that the male brain contains aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to estradiol; and that isoflavones inhibit this enzymatic activity"

(They also mention thyroid problems that soy contributes to making more likely, plus it making birth defects and Alzheimer's more likely.)
================================================== =====
Other gov'ts' food/health agencies finding out problems with soy:

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_badnews.html

"In July [2005?], the Israeli Health Ministry warned that babies should not receive soy formula, that children should eat soy no more than once per day to a maximum of three times per week and that adults should exercise caution because of increased risk of breast cancer and adverse effects on fertility. The Ministry based its advice upon the conclusions reached by a 13-member committee of nutritionists, oncologists, pediatricians and other specialists who spent more than year examining the evidence. They concluded that the estrogen-like plant hormones in soy can cause adverse effects on the human body and strongly urged consumers to minimize their consumption of soy foods...

In addition to the recent soy warning issued by the Israeli Health Ministry, expert scientists with the British Committee
on Toxicity, Swiss Federal Health Service and other government agencies have all expressed concern about soy’s potential to disrupt the digestive, immune and neuroendocrine systems of the human body and its role in rising rates of infertility, hypothyroidism and some types of cancer including thyroid and pancreatic cancers.
Soy is also highly allergenic. Most experts now place soy protein among the top eight allergens, and some rate it in the top six or even top four. The Swedish Health Ministry has warned that allergic reactions to soy are increasingly common, ranging from mild to life threatening, and that fatalities have been reported."
================================================== =
http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/food/soy_story.html

They show how Asians actually consume by weight only small amounts of soy products, that historically it was mainly used to enrich cropland, then plowed under.

"There's nothing natural about these modern soy protein products. Textured soy protein, for example, is made by forcing defatted soy flour through a machine called an extruder under conditions of such extreme heat and pressure that the very structure of the soy protein is changed. Production differs little from the extrusion technology used to produce starch-based packing materials, fiber-based industrial products, and plastic toy parts, bowls, and plates"

And, about the antinutrients:

"Antinutrients and Toxins in Soy
Scientists who have studied the use of soy protein in animal feeds over the years have discovered a number of components in soy that cause poor growth, digestive distress, and other health problems.24-27

To list just a few of these: Protease inhibitors interfere with protein digestion and have caused malnutrition, poor growth, digestive distress, and pancreatitis.28 Phytates block mineral absorption, causing zinc, iron, and calcium deficiencies.29-34 Lectins and saponins have caused leaky gut and other gastrointestinal and immune problems.35-36

Oxalates-surprisingly high in soy-may cause problems for people prone to kidney stones and women suffering from vulvodynia, a painful condition marked by burning, stinging, and itching of the external genitalia.37, 38 Finally, oligosaccharides give soy its notorious reputation as a gas producer. Although these are present in all beans, soy is such a powerful "musical fruit" that the soy industry has identified "the flatulence factor" as a major obstacle that must be overcome for soy to achieve full consumer acceptance."

Note that calcium tends to be deficient in thruhiker diets anyway, and vegetarians (more common among thrus than in the general populace) already tend to be running short on certain essential minerals, so there are even MORE reasons for those groups to avoid soy products.

"Soy Allergens
Soy is one of the top eight allergens that cause immediate hypersensitivity reactions such as coughing, sneezing, runny nose, hives, diarrhea, difficulty swallowing, and anaphylactic shock. Delayed allergic responses are even more common and occur anywhere from several hours to several days after the food is eaten. These have been linked to sleep disturbances, bedwetting, sinus and ear infections, crankiness, joint pain..."

Like bad sleep and joint pain are things thruhikers don't care about?
================================================== ==

http://www.nourishingourchildren.org/parents/soy.html

"Although SPI [Soy Protein Isolate] is added to many foods, it was never granted GRAS status, meaning "Generally Recognized as Safe". The FDA only granted GRAS status to SPI for use as a binder in cardboard boxes. During the processing of soy, many additional toxins are formed, including nitrates (which are carcinogens) and a toxin called lysinoalanine. It was concerns about lysinoalanine in SPI that led the FDA to deny GRAS status for SPI as a food additive."

"According to a Swiss report (see references (http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/birthcontrolbabies.html)), adult women consuming 100 mg isoflavones (about 2 cups of soy milk, or 1 cup of cooked mature soybeans) provide the estrogenic equivalent of a contraceptive pill. This means for a baby that weighs 6 kg (or just over 13 pounds), 10 mg provides the estrogenic equivalent of a contraceptive pill. Thus, the average amount of soybased formula taken in by a child provides the estrogenic equivalent of at least four birth control pills. Because babies are more vulnerable than adults to the effects of dietary estrogens, the effects could actually be much greater than that of four birth control pills. Hence the statement, "Babies on soy formula receive the estrogenic equivalent of at least five birth control pills per day.""
============================================
http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm

"...phytic acid", also called "phytates". This organic acid is present in the bran or hulls of all seeds and legumes, but none have the high level of phytates which soybeans do. Phytic acid blocks the body's uptake of essential minerals like magnesium, calcium, iron and especially zinc. Adding to the high phytate problem, soybeans are highly resistant to phytate-reducing techniques, such as long, slow cooking.

"In addition, soybeans also contain hemagglutinin, a clot-promoting substance which causes red blood cells to clump together. These clustered blood cells cannot properly absorb oxygen for distribution to the body's tissues, and are unable to help in maintaining good cardiac health."

Thruhikers don't care about cardiac health and aerobic fitness, do they?
==================================================

How much more info do you people need? Omnivore or vegetarian, rich or broke, you can live your life quite nicely without large quantities of soy products.

SGT Rock
11-01-2007, 08:37
From a Food and Drug Administration
How much more info do you people need? Omnivore or vegetarian, rich or broke, you can live your life quite nicely without large quantities of soy products.

Thanks. I'll put some time into checking this out.

rafe
11-01-2007, 08:56
From a Food and Drug Administration article: http://www.fda.gov/Fdac/features/2000/300_soy.html

"...specific components of soy, such as the soy isoflavones daidzein and genistein, not the whole food or intact soy protein.

The problem, researchers say, is that isoflavones are phytoestrogens, a weak form of estrogen that could have a drug-like effect in the body. This may be pronounced in postmenopausal women, and some studies suggest that high isoflavone levels might increase the risk of cancer, particularly breast cancer..."

Some very selective quoting there, MS. I suggest folks read the entire FDA article that you linked to, particularly the sentence that immediately follows your ellipsis in the quote above:


Research data, however, are far from conclusive, and some studies show just the opposite--that under some conditions, soy may help prevent breast cancer....

Unlike the controversy surrounding soy isoflavones, available evidence on soy protein benefits is much clearer. That's why FDA limited its health claim to foods containing intact soy protein. The claim does not extend to isolated substances from soy protein such as the isoflavones genistein and daidzein.

Johnny Thunder
11-01-2007, 09:44
Thanks. I'll put some time into checking this out.

Hey MS...sorry to jump in late here but I'll add some fuel to the fire. (thanks, by the way, for all the linkage, you saved me time)

As a health nut and lactard I was, for a time, using powdered soy protein as part of my post-workout routine. This also included a horse-pill multivitamin and glucosamine (a well-known amino that helps stimulate ligament regeneration and keeps your joints all healthy and lubbed).

I first had concerns with the Soy when I realized how downright gassy it made me. I asked the local GNC sales duder and he informed me of 3 important things which were later confirmed by my doctor (for the sake of the story I'll streamline it and not write out what each told me b/c it was litterally the same thing).

#1 Soy protein is a "complete protein"; however, it is the least bio-available of the common proteins. What bioavailable means is it is a rating of how much of the actual protein makes it to the muscles for regeneration. Highly bioavailable proteins closely mimic that which our body is built on. The highest being egg white protein and other meat protein (red meat, white meat, fish, etc). The next highest being milk-based protein (goat's whey being the best and cow weigh being next). Finally, vegtable based protein is the least available. This includes TVP, Soy, and the protein you'd find in potatoes and grains.

#2 Soy protein puts undue stress upon your immune system including your liver. It is recommended that ALL humans consume less than 2 servings of soy in any given day. Too much soy leads to fatty liver conditions similar to alcohol abuse. Note that I had blood work done immediately following my doc's discussion and found that I had "abnormal liver functions". Within 2 weeks of discontinuing consumption of the 20 grams of soy protein powder my blood work came back with no deviations from the norm. I was also told by the doctor that the soy would also effect the usefulness of the glucosamine. Since amino-supplements are not FDA regulated he could not comment on this directly.

#3 Soy-based protein consumption releases estrogen. Thanks to MS for posting this so clearly as I would have had to have done the research. Clearly there is a preponderance of information on this subject so I'll leave it at this: When your muscles regenerate, heal, etc they do best immediately following a work-out. Working out releases testosterone in men and women to varying degrees. What I was doing by ingesting soy was immediately dropping my testosterone levels below what they would have been before I went and ran/swim/biked/lifted/etc.

Ok, so I stopped using the soy...switched to goat's whey to avoid the lactard issues...and immediately noticed a change. First, almost no gas. Second, a quick drop in effects upon my liver. Finally, a quick and noticable change in my body. I was sore for less time. Also, I put on muscle after having "plateaued" (sp?) for a few months while on soy.

I've tried to help other hikers realize that by ingesting soy or vegtable-based protein they are doing well by their dietary needs but not by the muscular-skeletal needs of their athletic bodies. Soy protein has the same value as the 8 grams of protein you'd get from instant oatmeal. Yes, your body needs it to maintain energy; however, that protein isn't going to help your muscles repair the "microdamages" that eventually lead to you getting stronger.

I'm going to be 100% honest and say that I am not an expert in this field. An informed consumer...that's how I'd classify my understanding. When the sales duder and my doc spoke I understand everything.

See, I grew up in a home with two food scientists (one being a certified nutritionist, for whatever that's worth) who have worked at Unilever (read: Lipton) since before I was born. My parents have worked on or around the groups developing those great noodle packages hikers use on a daily basis. Actually, Pops is now more towards the Ragu side (a joke amongst my friends is that tomatoes litteraly put me through college) and my mom works in the test kitchen developing new products or new uses for old products.

When I was a kid I could get my hands on all sorts of cool things...like a 2 gallon bag of powdered caffeine...or purple Venezualan Ketchup. So, when I was planning the hike I asked Pops to hook me up with hundreds of noodles and powdered TVP (not realizing that TVP was essentially Soy).

"That's a complete meal, right?"

And then I got a dissertation on the three things listed above and how he essentially said that while soy protein based diet was unhealthy. When asked how vegetarians do it he said that they must rely heavily on milk and egg-based proteins.

And then I just took home some purple ketchup...which is cool...but not when you're 25.

In summation - Animal protein good. Soy Protein bad.

CoyoteWhips
11-02-2007, 08:41
There's a whole bunch of protein that's not soy or animal. Everybody is different and not everybody metabolizes food in the same way. When it comes down to it, you're the only one who can say what food is doing in your own body.

I think Squeaky's (http://www.matthazley.com/index.htm) plan to have a team meet him at road crossings with pizza would have been excessive, if he wasn't trying to finish the whole trail in less than six weeks.

minnesotasmith
11-02-2007, 09:41
Protein complementation is a dietary strategy based (whether someone doing it understands it or not) based upon the fact that protein that is part of a human body is composed of specific amino acids combined in a precise ratio. The body tries to make use of what amino acids are available to it at a given meal. When it runs out of the first amino acid it needs, the rest of the amino acids are wasted WRT making body proteins, and are just burned as fuel (stressing the kidneys, I might add).

This is why corn is traditionally eaten with beans in Mexico, rice with beans in the South, milk with cold cereal in the U.S., and so on.

Adequate protein complementation is indeed doable solely with vegetable foods. However, it is much easier to make more full use of vegetable protein if a little meat or milk is consumed with it, milk and meat having considerably more desirable amino acid ratios than do the vast majority of vegetable foods. When you make a bean and rice casserole, throw in a small can of meat, say, to improve it nutritionally.

Likewise, many minerals (zinc, magnesium, and iron, among others) are far more nutritionally available from animal products than they are from plants. This is why vegans who don't make up the missing parts of their diet with supplements (mimicking the meat their bodies are designed to eat, but don't get) often show signs of mild mineral deficiencies, even if there theoretically is enough of those minerals in the plants they eat.

A vegan vegetarian diet is considerably better than the average American diet, but is still not the ideal. The best achievable diet would include a modest amount of animal products, say, something like about 3 decks of cards of meat a week.

SGT Rock
11-02-2007, 09:48
A vegan vegetarian diet is considerably better than the average American diet, but is still not the ideal. The best achievable diet would include a modest amount of animal products, say, something like about 3 decks of cards of meat a week.
That is all?

Cookerhiker
11-02-2007, 10:00
Hey guys, perhaps I missed this but where do nuts fit in the protein hierarchy, especially peanuts which are a staple of mine both on and off the trail? Are they considered similar to "plant based" or whole grain protein sources? I realize that peanuts are legumes - does that put them in the same category as soy or vegetables? What about other nuts? We all know the value of walnuts for Omega 3s.

max patch
11-02-2007, 10:01
BTW, I probably ate more nutritiously on the Trail than 90% of other thruhikers last year. How many carried dried sushi-grade seaweed and freeze-dried spinach and broccoli, and never cooked ONE Ramen their whole hike?

I agree with you about ramen; I think its the most overrated hiker food out there, not worth the time or energy expended to cook it. And while I didn't carry freeze dried spinach or broccoli thats only because I didn't think about it as broccoli is considered to be one of the "best" foods you can eat. I did carry freeze dried peas and added them to a bunch of dinners. Taro had some kind of dried fish mailed to him which I gladly accepted when he offered it.

Sly
11-02-2007, 10:11
BTW, I probably ate more nutritiously on the Trail than 90% of other thruhikers last year. How many carried dried sushi-grade seaweed and freeze-dried spinach and broccoli, and never cooked ONE Ramen their whole hike?

Is that how you were able to hike so fast?

rafe
11-02-2007, 10:16
Taro had some kind of dried fish mailed to him which I gladly accepted when he offered it.

Down along Rte 101 along the coast of western Oregon, I once bought dried salmon from a roadside food stand. This wasn't like lox, and it wasn't in foil. It was sold in chunks the size of brownies and they were wrapped in saran wrap. Very tasty! I wish I knew where to buy that stuff.

Failing that, there's lox (smoked salmon) in vacuum-wrapped in foil. It's non-perishable until you open the package. I've had that in mail drops before. Maybe what Taro had. You can get salmon steaks in foil at supermarkets these days, but that's not the same thing.

Johnny Thunder
11-02-2007, 10:22
Hey guys, perhaps I missed this but where do nuts fit in the protein hierarchy, especially peanuts which are a staple of mine both on and off the trail? Are they considered similar to "plant based" or whole grain protein sources? I realize that peanuts are legumes - does that put them in the same category as soy or vegetables? What about other nuts? We all know the value of walnuts for Omega 3s.


Peanuts are like soy nuts are like black beans are like red beans etc.

Legumes/plant/soy protein is all, to a degree, lumped together.

Like MS pointed out...some have varying ratios of essential amino acids and can be, to some extent, better than others.

take-a-knee
11-02-2007, 10:28
Thanks for that informative post Johnny Thunder, I'd been trying to put on a little muscle for several years using soy protein, with very little success. I guess I need to look for another source.

Johnny Thunder
11-02-2007, 10:35
There's a whole bunch of protein that's not soy or animal. Everybody is different and not everybody metabolizes food in the same way. When it comes down to it, you're the only one who can say what food is doing in your own body.

I think Squeaky's (http://www.matthazley.com/index.htm) plan to have a team meet him at road crossings with pizza would have been excessive, if he wasn't trying to finish the whole trail in less than six weeks.


Yeah, there are other types of protein besides vegtable and animal...like...uh...what else do we eat now a-days? Candy?

I mean, we either eat things that grow (vegtables, legumes, grains) or the things (or byproducts of things) that eat this things that grow (animals, eggs, milk).

So, maybe there are categories amongst those groups. But in reality, it's as MS said...the different proteins have different ratios of amino acids which build and rebuild muscles. Some have better ratios for humans than others do. Cows, for instance, require different ratios than we do which is why they can get away with eating grass all day. Go eat grass all day and tell me that it works for you. No seriously, do that, it tastes like chicken.

Disclaimer- You are not a cow. You are not able to eat the same things cows do and be healthy.

And while you might be right about being the only person who knows how food works in your body I have to disagree. For instance, I got to believe that the FDA probably has a pretty good idea. Yeah, and the guy who works with the products were talking about here...you'd think he'd know what's healthy and what's not.

But anyway, you're right, only you know what works for you. Me? I recently found out that Crestor makes me fly. I've been swoopin' around Philly fightin' crime and ****. Mucho fun. (Astra Zeneca Disagrees!)

Johnny Thunder
11-02-2007, 10:50
Thanks for that informative post Johnny Thunder, I'd been trying to put on a little muscle for several years using soy protein, with very little success. I guess I need to look for another source.


TaK, I'm trying not to jump...one of the things I did early on was not take in enough total protein for the small amount of supplements to work. A "supplement" is just that...it supplements what is supposed to be a well balanced diet.

Fitness "experts" and various nutritionists have all sorts of "rules of thumb" for gauging your protein intake. I've heard, and try to prescribe to taking in a minimum of 1 gram of protein for every pound on your body (while trying to put on muscle weight). Some people say 2 grams per pound but those people probably have their hand in the pockets of GNC or whomever. Also, it's downright impossible to hit that figure.

I see it this way - If you weigh 175 lbs and eat a boat load of salad all day, one scoop of protein powder isn't going to do the trick. Your body is not going to use that protein for how you intend it to be used. Instead, it's going to be used as necessary energy to keep your blood pumping, brain firing, etc.

Nutritionists call this "protein stripping" but I think that's another brilliant GNC-Marketing-Team term for something that we all sort of know already.

So just be mindful of your intake. A regular chicken breast has somewere between 40 and 80 grams of protein...and that's just one! (those foil packets are probably on the lower end of this spectrum b/c of the size)

CoyoteWhips
11-02-2007, 10:50
A vegan vegetarian diet is considerably better than the average American diet, but is still not the ideal. The best achievable diet would include a modest amount of animal products, say, something like about 3 decks of cards of meat a week.

I agree. I love the idea of the 100% raw vegan diet. But, then, there's the B12 problem. It's either take supplements, or an occasional fish. I think fish is tastier.

mudhead
11-02-2007, 11:04
So if my primary protein sources are peanuts, and beans, I am shorting myself?

SGT Rock
11-02-2007, 11:15
How about a wider base of proteins, not just one single source. Some examples from my normal hiking diet:

(This is the grams of protein, not the serving size)

Grits (corn) 5 grams per day.
Breakfast Bar (oats, nuts and such) 8 grams per day.
Beans - 12 grams
Tortillas - 8 grams
Milk - 12 grams
Beans and rice - 24 grams
Sausage - 10 grams
Nuts - 10 grams
Jerky - 14 grams

I got all this from reading the labels on stuff. So that makes it 101 grams of protein. I read that 1 gram per kilo of body mass is about right - so this makes me about 1.4 times what I need if that is correct.

Appalachian Tater
11-02-2007, 11:22
So if my primary protein sources are peanuts, and beans, I am shorting myself?

There are a couple of hundred million Indians who are lacto-vegetarians. They eat mostly rice and a variety of vegetables with legumes such as lentils and chickpeas supplemented with small amounts of milk, yoghurt, butter, cheese, etc. They are not protein or B12 or anything-else deficient.

It IS a lot easier to get complete nutrition if you are willing to be lacto- or lacto-ovo-vegetarian. A few eggs and dairy products go a long way to helping achieve that goal. These days you can once again buy dairy products and eggs from animals that are treated relatively well if that is a concern.

take-a-knee
11-02-2007, 11:31
I agree. I love the idea of the 100% raw vegan diet. But, then, there's the B12 problem. It's either take supplements, or an occasional fish. I think fish is tastier.

Jack Lallane has lived most of his 93 years as a lacto-ovo (egg and milk) vegetarian and I believe he eats fish. He was preaching the importance of diet way back when morons like Jim Fixx were saying eat all the bacon cheesburgers you want, just go run. Fixx has been dead for over twenty years and Jack most likely swam for an hour this morning, after he lifted weights.

Johnny Thunder
11-02-2007, 11:32
How about a wider base of proteins, not just one single source. Some examples from my normal hiking diet:

(This is the grams of protein, not the serving size)

Grits (corn) 5 grams per day.
Breakfast Bar (oats, nuts and such) 8 grams per day.
Beans - 12 grams
Tortillas - 8 grams
Milk - 12 grams
Beans and rice - 24 grams
Sausage - 10 grams
Nuts - 10 grams
Jerky - 14 grams

I got all this from reading the labels on stuff. So that makes it 101 grams of protein. I read that 1 gram per kilo of body mass is about right - so this makes me about 1.4 times what I need if that is correct.


That looks good...if the 1 per kilo figure works for you then you're fine. Check this site out:

www.nutritiondata.com (http://www.nutritiondata.com)

If you go to each foot type's page and scroll down half way it shows the calculated value of the protein's quality based on the proportion of amino's. 100 being the target. Peanuts scored a 66. Chicken scored a 136.

take-a-knee
11-02-2007, 11:36
[quote=Appalachian Tater;440817]There are a couple of hundred million Indians who are lacto-vegetarians. They eat mostly rice and a variety of vegetables with legumes such as lentils and chickpeas supplemented with small amounts of milk, yoghurt, butter, cheese, etc. They are not protein or B12 or anything-else deficient.

I'm not so sure about that, my wife was an ICU nurse for fifteen years and she cared for a lot of ethnic Indians (hindu type). Her observation was that they were chronically malnourished and very fragile, and usually much younger in years than they appeared to be, IE 55 and look 70.

max patch
11-02-2007, 11:36
Jack Lallane has lived most of his 93 years as a lacto-ovo (egg and milk) vegetarian and I believe he eats fish. He was preaching the importance of diet way back when morons like Jim Fixx were saying eat all the bacon cheesburgers you want, just go run. Fixx has been dead for over twenty years and Jack most likely swam for an hour this morning, after he lifted weights.

Unfortunatley a lot of hikers think like Jim Fixx. Just because you burn calories when hiking doesn't make it ok to use squeeze margarine and intake other bad fats.

Johnny Thunder
11-02-2007, 11:42
Unfortunatley a lot of hikers think like Jim Fixx. Just because you burn calories when hiking doesn't make it ok to use squeeze margarine and intake other bad fats.

Total agreement. Just because you need to fight to maintain a caloric surplus (more calories eaten than burned) in order to keep weight on doesn't mean that the calories themselves are what's going to keep you healthy. Balanced diet. Balanced diet. Balanced diet.

The inverse is true about watching people diet. You cant expect a mere calory defecit to be what causes you to lose weight. It will be part of the reason but the other is still maintaining a balanced diet.

When I was HS wrestler I used to look at my teamates choking down rice cakes and wonder if they ever paid attention in health class.

Appalachian Tater
11-02-2007, 11:46
I'm not so sure about that, my wife was an ICU nurse for fifteen years and she cared for a lot of ethnic Indians (hindu type). Her observation was that they were chronically malnourished and very fragile, and usually much younger in years than they appeared to be, IE 55 and look 70.

Yeah, Americans are pretty fat. Even your average European looks a little malnourished in comparison. Go back and look at group photos of Americans from the 1950s even, they look a little skinny, too. But there are hundreds of millions of truly malnourished people, but being vegetarian is not the cause of it. Eating too little food or too little of a variety to get complete nutrition is the cause of malnutrition, barring a condition that prevents absorption of something or another. If anything, we eat too much animal protein for good health.

SGT Rock
11-02-2007, 12:20
That looks good...if the 1 per kilo figure works for you then you're fine. Check this site out:

www.nutritiondata.com (http://www.nutritiondata.com)

If you go to each foot type's page and scroll down half way it shows the calculated value of the protein's quality based on the proportion of amino's. 100 being the target. Peanuts scored a 66. Chicken scored a 136.
That thing calculated my protein needs of only 58.

Appalachian Tater
11-02-2007, 12:28
That thing calculated my protein needs of only 58.

When you're out hiking all day you need extra protein to repair the damage to your body. As long as you don't eat excessive amounts of protein, it won't hurt you. You've got about 2 ounces of well-matched vegetable proteins and an ounce of animal protein in the menu you posted, you're doing fine.

SGT Rock, when you're on your thru, just listen to your body. It will tell you if you need to eat more salt or protein or whatever. For instance, I sometimes drank a half-gallon of chocolate milk like a glass of water as soon as I hit town. During the summer, I went from wanting anything sweet to eating everything salty. And consider a multivitamin if you haven't already.

SGT Rock
11-02-2007, 12:33
I'm doing the multivitamin thing. I did some reading a while back on this when we had the topic of water purification and treatment up. This one study found that all things being equal (treatment methods, hygine, age, etc.) - folks that take a daily multivitamin had lower incidences of gastrointestinal illnesses.

Appalachian Tater
11-02-2007, 12:50
I'm doing the multivitamin thing. I did some reading a while back on this when we had the topic of water purification and treatment up. This one study found that all things being equal (treatment methods, hygine, age, etc.) - folks that take a daily multivitamin had lower incidences of gastrointestinal illnesses.

That's interesting but not surprising. Some of the micronutrients play crucial roles in cellular function. Some of the communication methods various cells of the body use to communicate with other organs or tissues are absolutely amazing.

And this discussion reminded me, I forgot to take my monthly B12 shot yesterday. I have low levels and I'm nowhere near vegetarian!

I think one reason thru-hikers like AYCE is not just the quantity, but the ability to choose what foods the body needs in the correct proportions.

SGT Rock
11-02-2007, 13:00
MS, Johnny, Tater, you guys have been helpful. Thanks.

Johnny Thunder
11-02-2007, 13:38
MS, Johnny, Tater, you guys have been helpful. Thanks.

Thank you as well. I didn't know that multi-vitamin/gastro-health connection. Makes a lot of sense.

If you're already taking a vitamin you might want to look into Glucosamine. Every runner and hiker should be taking it.

SGT Rock
11-02-2007, 14:15
I've heard about it. Don't know that much really.

minnesotasmith
11-02-2007, 22:49
1a) Your body CANNOT absorb all the Calcium you need for 24 hours from a single intake. That is, you could drink a half gallon of milk or take supplements that theoretically give you 200% of your Calcium RDA, but all at one time, and you'd still be running a deficit compared with your needs.

So, try to drink milk more than once a day, or spread out any Calcium supplements you take.

1b) Multivitamin/mineral pills do not contain significant Calcium; 10% of RDA is about typical, if memory serves. The reason is that Calcium compounds acceptable for ingestion are very bulky, and there's just not enough room in a multivit pill for enough Calcium. Expect to have to take at least two large pills that are solely Calcium supplements, if you are going to get the majority of your Calcium via supplements.

2) It turns out that the traditional Orthodox Jewish prohibition against meat and milk at the same meal makes some sense. There is a ton of Phosphorus in animal products (other than milk, natch), and it seriously interferes with the human body absorbing Calcium, whether from milk or supplements, taken around the same time. So, at least once a day taking in a Calcium source with no meat a couple hours before and after is smart.

3) Likewise, colas contain substantial phosphoric acid, which is a Phosphorus source, so perhaps staying away from brown soft drinks (most but not all of which contain phosphoric acid -- read the label!) at least part of the day the way I suggested with meat vs. Calcium sources would be wise.

Frankly, colas are pointless and unwise to consume in any case, especially for females of any age, them being more vulnerable to osteoporosis than men are, with less-dense bones and less efficient Calcium-absorbing metabolisms (probably testosterone-related) than men do.

4) There are other significant food Calcium sources besides milk, as good as it is. Here is an extensive list (originally from the Dept. of Agriculture) of many vegetables:

http://www.carrotcafe.com/f/calevel.html

And, of foods in general:

http://www.osteoporosis.ca/english/About%20Osteoporosis/Nutrition/Calcium%20Requirements/default.asp?s=1

Do remember that minerals in vegetables are not as available as in animal products, so I think that counting solely on vegetables for one's Calcium needs is unwise. Drink some milk often, and/or take supplements.

I particularly think highly of dark blackstrap cane molasses and dark leafy greens, as they contain other worthwhile nutrients. Cane molasses is a major biotin (a sort of vitamin) source, while those greens have so much beta carotene (Vit. A precursor), Vit. C, and Vit K, that a human needs no other dietary sources of them.

Getting Calcium via sardines or other bone-containing fish strikes me as poor strategy, as the Phosphorus they contain will interfere with absorbing the Calcium. I do eat sardines (cheap low-satfat source of protein and Omega-3 oils), but I don't consider them a Calcium source for me.

5) Calcium balance in the body is also affected negatively by caffeine intake, excessive Vit A/beta carotene intake, and excessive protein consumption in general.

6) I remember reading that about 90% of Caucasians that believe they are lactose-intolerant (so can't consume dairy products) are completely mistaken. So, odds are if you are white and think you can't drink milk, especially if Central/Western/Northern European, you're wrong.

Asians (other than Subcontinent Indians) often do have problems with digesting dairy products as adults, as do some Mediterranean-origin people to a lesser degree, though.

6) One more thing on milk: as the fat content of milk is decreased by skimming, going from full-fat milk to 2%, 1%, and finally skim milk, the content of the desirable constituents increases, i.e., there is more Calcium in an 8-ounce cup of skim milk than in full-fat milk. Thus, that's one more reason to go as low-fat on milk as possible.

Incidentally, even 2% milk still does not qualify by FDA regs as a low-fat food, it still has so much fat in it. Buy only skim milk, and get used to it. Likewise, there are fat-free versions of sour cream, cottage cheese, cream cheese, yogurt, etc., widely available now. There's no need to buy the types that still have all the fat left in them, and like skim milk, they have more Calcium, etc., than do the full-fat versions.

Note that if you're really broke, that powdered milk can cost under half as much as liquid milk, with no nutritional drawbacks. I normally use powdered milk in place of liquid for cold cereal (even at home, not just when hiking), in cooking, and for that rare cup of (sugar-free, natch) hot chocolate.

The above is part of why I don't normally drink coffee, colas, much of any soft drinks, or undecaffeinated teas. I mainly buy tomato juice (no added salt if possible), fruit juices (no added sugar if possible), decaf green tea, distilled water, and skim milk.

take-a-knee
11-02-2007, 23:08
You are a handy guy to have around MS.

mudhead
11-03-2007, 06:39
Jack Lallane has lived most of his 93 years as a lacto-ovo (egg and milk) vegetarian and I believe he eats fish. He was preaching the importance of diet way back when morons like Jim Fixx were saying eat all the bacon cheesburgers you want, just go run. Fixx has been dead for over twenty years and Jack most likely swam for an hour this morning, after he lifted weights.

Old Jack eats egg-whites and salmon. Heard him say: "People exceed the feed limit." "If you can't pronounce it, don't eat it." Clever.

SGT Rock
11-03-2007, 07:29
Not something I had thought about until now. Looks like my diet only has about 500mg of calcium in it now.

CoyoteWhips
11-03-2007, 08:23
I particularly think highly of dark blackstrap cane molasses and dark leafy greens, as they contain other worthwhile nutrients. Cane molasses is a major biotin (a sort of vitamin) source, while those greens have so much beta carotene (Vit. A precursor), Vit. C, and Vit K, that a human needs no other dietary sources of them.

Well, I'm already getting the greens, but now I have an excuse to open up that jar of molasses.

Appalachian Tater
11-03-2007, 12:07
You have to have vitamin D or you can eat calcium all done long and it doesn't do any good. That's why milk is fortified with it.

Soy products like tofu are actually a more concentrated source of calcium than milk products are.

Here's a good, concise calcium & vitamin D reference: http://www.bchealthguide.org/healthfiles/hfile68e.stm

take-a-knee
11-03-2007, 14:44
If you are outside for an hour or so in the sunlight, your skin will make enough Vitamin D. Vit D has also been shown to be an immune booster as well as being essential in maintaining lung tissue elasticity (you can breathe easier, and your lungs don't age as fast).

Cookerhiker
11-03-2007, 17:57
This has turned into a very informative thread with value for both on-trail and off-trail eating. Back on the protein issues: Speaking as one who has high chloresterol, I've cut down red meat and chicken for a few years and gone semi-vegetarian but based on what I'm reading, I see the benefits of animal sources for protein. It seems to me that after egg whites, the best overall source for protein is fish.

Having said that, what are the tradeoffs of the environmental factors. Meaning: is lean, grass-fed, non-hormone injected beef or free-range poultry safer/healthier than fish subject to mercury or, like Eastern salmon, injected with artificial color?

Another nutrtional subject: my local NPR station has a program Saturday mornings called The Peoples Pharmacy which discusses alternative medicine & treatments. A few months ago, one episode that I still remember well dealt with cherries and how healthy they are because of melatonin, a powerful antioxident. Two of many articles about cherries & melatonin are here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6124646/) and here (http://www.southernutah.com/Articles/Over_50/511342.860141). And while fresh cherries are only available in season, dried cherries pack a powerful dose; they're expensive but you only need a small handful to get the benefits. So now whether home or on the trail, my oatmeal includes dried cherries.

take-a-knee
11-03-2007, 18:34
Cookerhiker, I also have moderately high cholesterol (220-230 or so) and I don't consider it a big deal. Cholesterol is only one of several risk factors for arterial disease. The number one risk factor is high blood pressure, that is what physically deposits the plaque in your arteries. Maintaining a normal blood pressure (120/80) is paramount, and cardio exercise is the best way to do this. You still need to be concerned about the types and amounts of fats you consume, but there is only so much reduction possible. I urge everyone to avoid all trans fats, if you look on a label and read the words "partially hydrogenated", put it back on the shelf. The stuff raises your bad cholesterol (LDL) and lowers the good (HDL). I believe some lean beef or even better, venison, is healthy, trim the fat, and cook out what is left. Red meat is the best source of iron to maintain proper hemoglobin, mine runs low normal (12-17gm/deciliter is the normal range for a male). Poultry or any light colored meat is a poorer source of iron. Not all need to be concerned with this, ask you doctor to review your physicals. Leafy dark greens are also a source and some people seem to be able to absorb the iron from them better than others. While you are at it, examine your white blood cell counts for several past physicals. The normal range is 5,000 to 10,000 gm/dl. If yours runs high normal, you may be at increased risk for heart disease, this correlates to the recently discovered CRP test for arterial inflamation. Smokers usually have a high normal count.

minnesotasmith
11-03-2007, 22:30
You have to have vitamin D or you can eat calcium all done long and it doesn't do any good. That's why milk is fortified with it.

Very true, and important.

Soy products like tofu are actually a more concentrated source of calcium than milk products are.

Not naturally, they're not. Soy products originate with much lower Calcium levels than does milk. The Calcium in soy milk, tofu, etc., nearly all comes from supplementation. Soy as a source of Calcium can just be thought of as an inefficient, diluted supplement with drawbacks. It is easier just to buy supplement pills, and avoid all the associated negatives soy products have (undesirable estrogen analogs, nutrient blockers, digestive disturbances, quick-rancidity oils, etc.).

You might want to read the post I made above earlier in this thread on how undesirable soy products are for human consumption.

rafe
11-03-2007, 23:03
Soy is the basic ingredient in tofu, which has been consumed throughout Asia since at least the 2nd century BCE. [Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu) to Wikipedia article about tofu.]

Appalachian Tater
11-04-2007, 13:06
Soy products like tofu are actually a more concentrated source of calcium than milk products are.

Not naturally, they're not. Soy products originate with much lower Calcium levels than does milk. The Calcium in soy milk, tofu, etc., nearly all comes from supplementation. Soy as a source of Calcium can just be thought of as an inefficient, diluted supplement with drawbacks. It is easier just to buy supplement pills, and avoid all the associated negatives soy products have (undesirable estrogen analogs, nutrient blockers, digestive disturbances, quick-rancidity oils, etc.).

You might want to read the post I made above earlier in this thread on how undesirable soy products are for human consumption.

As I said, tofu and other soy products have more concentrated calcium than dairy products do. It's not added as a supplement, the calcium is part of the manufacturing process and aids in the coagulation. Most tofu has twice as much calcium as milk, weight-for-weight. It's not diluted or inefficient.

I totally disagree with you that soy products are harmful, and the literal billions of people who eat it every day would as well. Do you also advise against eating other legumes? :)

The tea-smoked firm tofu is especially nice if you have a Chinatown or other place to buy it. Yum!

take-a-knee
11-04-2007, 15:20
Tater, I eat a lot of legumes, beans, peas, etc. They are healthy but I've read that they can deplete your zinc level. This might need to be addressed with other foods or supplements. I know from my personal experience that soy protein makes muscle gain difficult, so, healthy or not, it does behave differently in the human body.

Appalachian Tater
11-04-2007, 15:28
Tater, I eat a lot of legumes, beans, peas, etc. They are healthy but I've read that they can deplete your zinc level. This might need to be addressed with other foods or supplements. I know from my personal experience that soy protein makes muscle gain difficult, so, healthy or not, it does behave differently in the human body.

I have to admit my understanding is that legumes were a source of zinc.

The take-away is that you definitely need to eat a wide variety of food. The vast majority of vegetarians on the planet do not rely primarily or solely on soy products for their main source of protein. I eat about a pound of tofu every couple of weeks but there are hidden sources in a lot of processed foods.

Also, a multi-vitamin with minerals is not a bad idea.

minnesotasmith
11-06-2007, 01:40
Soy is the basic ingredient in tofu, which has been consumed throughout Asia since at least the 2nd century BCE. [Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu) to Wikipedia article about tofu.]

1) Asians don't actually eat all that much in the way of soy products by weight. I posted a link to quantitative data earlier. They used it more as a ground cover, then would plow it under.

2) They have historically tended to be poor and thus desperate a lot of the time. They've been known to eat everything from dog to bear gall bladders to bird vomit. Since Orientals have been known to eat those, too, pro-soy advocates who mention Oriental longtime consumption of soy would surely be in the market for those "foods", too?

3) Judging from the height relative to Americans of Orientals raised before WWII (after which Western diets began to influence them much more) and subsequently, where Orientals began growing much taller, their diet was not the ideal.

Footbinding for upper-class women was a tradition of centuries, too. Shall we institute that here as well, along with eating soy?

A mistake having longevity does not have much of a defense for continuing it, once the mistake is identified.

Cookerhiker
11-06-2007, 10:01
The NPR show The Peoples Pharmacy (http://peoplespharmacy.us/index.asp) did a show on soy a year-and-a-half ago. I didn't listen to it but found this link on their website. The guest, Dr. Kaayla Daniels, authored a book entitled The Whole Soy Story and maintains a website (http://www.wholesoystory.com/). I haven't read or seen the book but I imagine some of her sources are the same as those cited by Minnesota Smith.

One recent development is the American Heart Association withdrew its endorsement of soy's alleged benefits as a preventor of coronary disease.

Jack Tarlin
11-06-2007, 15:10
Speaking of identifying mistakes, Smitty, you neglected to mention that the adoption of a more "Westernized" diet has resulted in an explosion of intestinal and stomach cancers in Japan; before the war, these ailments were essentially non-existent.

Your post above decrying the "primitive" Asian diet above neglected to mention this.

And as for the eating of dogs or bird vomit in the Orient, Smitty, there are parts of America where fried pig intestines are considered a delicacy; there are places in Denver where people happily pay fifteen bucks for a plate of bull testicles. Orientals aren't the only folks who eat unusual food Smitty, and it's a pity to see your unfortunate attitudes towards non-whites rear its head again.

Lastly, Smitty, recent research indicates that Americans are now getting SHORTER than Europeans, so maybe our diet isn't as great as you may think.

Sly
11-06-2007, 15:23
there are places in Denver where people happily pay fifteen bucks for a plate of bull testicles.

I don't know if I'd pay that much, but I tried them. They were tasty. :)

Appalachian Tater
11-06-2007, 18:58
1) Asians don't actually eat all that much in the way of soy products by weight. I posted a link to quantitative data earlier. They used it more as a ground cover, then would plow it under.

2) They have historically tended to be poor and thus desperate a lot of the time. They've been known to eat everything from dog to bear gall bladders to bird vomit. Since Orientals have been known to eat those, too, pro-soy advocates who mention Oriental longtime consumption of soy would surely be in the market for those "foods", too?

3) Judging from the height relative to Americans of Orientals raised before WWII (after which Western diets began to influence them much more) and subsequently, where Orientals began growing much taller, their diet was not the ideal.

Footbinding for upper-class women was a tradition of centuries, too. Shall we institute that here as well, along with eating soy?

A mistake having longevity does not have much of a defense for continuing it, once the mistake is identified.

Some of the foods you mention are delicacies and are certainly not eaten out of desperation. Poor people cannot afford bear gall bladders.

It is a logical fallacy to say that because the Chinese bound feet that one should not eat soy. They have nothing to do with each other. That's like saying one should not read books because Generalissimo Francisco Franco read books and he also was responsible for political executions.

Of course, you already know this.

minnesotasmith
11-26-2007, 18:41
Speaking of identifying mistakes, Smitty, you neglected to mention that the adoption of a more "Westernized" diet has resulted in an explosion of intestinal and stomach cancers in Japan; before the war, these ailments were essentially non-existent.

Your post above decrying the "primitive" Asian diet above neglected to mention this.

And as for the eating of dogs or bird vomit in the Orient, Smitty, there are parts of America where fried pig intestines are considered a delicacy; there are places in Denver where people happily pay fifteen bucks for a plate of bull testicles. Orientals aren't the only folks who eat unusual food Smitty, and it's a pity to see your unfortunate attitudes towards non-whites rear its head again.

Lastly, Smitty, recent research indicates that Americans are now getting SHORTER than Europeans, so maybe our diet isn't as great as you may think.


1) There is much about the traditional Oriental diet that is superior to what most Americans eat. I never said otherwise.

2) Re my attitudes of whites vs. nonwhites; I just think there should be a part of the world where the former can exist.

3) Orientals getting taller as they cut back on their soy product consumption, and Americans getting shorter as they increase theirs. Seems like a pattern... ;)

Jack Tarlin
11-26-2007, 19:06
Note to Smity:

Please tell us the parts of the world where whites are not premitted to exist. This is a new concept to me; I've been all around the world and have run into white people pretty much everywhere I've been.

Or did you instead mean that there should be parts of the world where whites are permitted to exist all BY THEMSELVES?

Cuz if this is what you mean, you should say it.

By the way, I've been to a place that fits this description.

I dunno if you'd like Iceland, Smitty. It's colder than hell, it's dark for half the year, people tend to drink too much, and they serve too much fish.

But you're more interested in complexion than climate, it might be your kinda place. :D

Appalachian Tater
11-26-2007, 19:52
Yeah, Iceland would be a good bet, or Clay County, Arkansas.

Jack Tarlin
11-26-2007, 20:00
Actually, I think Smitty would be happiest here:

www.whitecounty.net

Gotta love than name......... :D

Jack Tarlin
11-26-2007, 20:01
Or here......

www.whitecountyindiana.org/

Jack Tarlin
11-26-2007, 20:03
Or try

www.whitecounty-il.gov/

Anybody see a pattern here? :D

mudhead
11-26-2007, 20:42
Northern Idaho.

He'd fit right in if they didn't shoot him.

minnesotasmith
12-03-2007, 18:46
Note to Smity:

Please tell us the parts of the world where whites are not premitted to exist. This is a new concept to me...

http://www.white-history.com/hwrdet2.htm

Do look at ALL the pictures.

Would you feel welcome there, Jack? Going to move there? Any takers?

Jack Tarlin
12-03-2007, 19:07
Instead of looking at the photos you've thoughtfully provided, Smitty, I'd feel a whole let beter about you if you didn't send us stuff from white supremacist hate sites, or quote their publications.

Have you checked out "Ostara Publications" who publishes this book, Smitty?
Do you know what they're all about? Do you know about the history of Ostara magazine, or its publisher Lans von Liebenfels? Do you know what he was all about? Do you know that in 1938, his writings were banned because even Adolf Hitler found them offensive?

If you haven't checked into this, you should. But please, don't send us anything else from Ostara Publications, OK? What are you gonna do next, send us some quotes from Mel Gibson's dad?

Your arguments are not buttressed or ennobled when you use books and sources like this to support them.

Quite the opposite.

Tin Man
12-03-2007, 19:28
there are places in Denver where people happily pay fifteen bucks for a plate of bull testicles.


I don't know if I'd pay that much, but I tried them. They were tasty. :)

$15 is a bargain... look at this entree from the Road Kill Cafe menu...

Mooseballs
Unquestionably the most tender cut
of the moose, sauteed and graced
with our own special sauce.
72 hour notice and 25% deposit required.
$1,425.00

See the menu for other interesting selections...

http://www.frivolity.com/teatime/Miscellaneous/road_kill_cafe_menu.txt

Jack Tarlin
12-03-2007, 19:35
Quick suggestion:

I'm sorry we got sidetracked. This thread is about maildrops; it's not about national diets, or racial theories, or me and Smitty disagreeing with each other.

I suggest we get back to the original question, which was maildrops, the necessity for them, how many are needed, if any, etc.

The fact that threads drift kind of wildly here at Whiteblaze is no secret, but every now and again, we need a reminder to ourselves: People start threads for specific reasons, and with very specific questions. We should try and respect this.

mudhead
12-03-2007, 19:38
Well said.

Mooseballs' pictures were a tad off subject.

Tin Man
12-03-2007, 19:42
Well said.

Mooseballs' pictures were a tad off subject.

Sorry. :o I wonder if the Road Kill Cafe ships menu items to mail drops? :-? Sorry, I guess that does not make it better. Uh, what's a mail drop? Oh, never mind. :p

minnesotasmith
12-03-2007, 19:45
Out of curiosity, how often do you clap your hands to your ears and start loudly chanting "LA LA LA LA LA LA" when you encounter data that makes you feel uncomfortable? If you can't bring yourself to look at photographs of nothing but buildings and streets (not a human or animal to be seen, alive or dead), something is going on (or not going on) in your mind that holds truth to not be a particularly high value.

I will ask you again: how welcome would you feel residing in the place of which I above provided a set of relatively current photographs?

SGT Rock
12-03-2007, 19:49
I would feel very safe if I were picking up a mail drop at those locations.

Jack Tarlin
12-03-2007, 19:57
Go read Post #121, Smitty.

This discussion is as stupid as it is out of place.

Hikerhead
12-03-2007, 20:00
This has turned into a very informative thread with value for both on-trail and off-trail eating. Back on the protein issues: Speaking as one who has high chloresterol, I've cut down red meat and chicken for a few years and gone semi-vegetarian but based on what I'm reading, I see the benefits of animal sources for protein. It seems to me that after egg whites, the best overall source for protein is fish.

Having said that, what are the tradeoffs of the environmental factors. Meaning: is lean, grass-fed, non-hormone injected beef or free-range poultry safer/healthier than fish subject to mercury or, like Eastern salmon, injected with artificial color?

Another nutrtional subject: my local NPR station has a program Saturday mornings called The Peoples Pharmacy which discusses alternative medicine & treatments. A few months ago, one episode that I still remember well dealt with cherries and how healthy they are because of melatonin, a powerful antioxident. Two of many articles about cherries & melatonin are here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6124646/) and here (http://www.southernutah.com/Articles/Over_50/511342.860141). And while fresh cherries are only available in season, dried cherries pack a powerful dose; they're expensive but you only need a small handful to get the benefits. So now whether home or on the trail, my oatmeal includes dried cherries.

I picked up some dried Cherries for the first time a couple of weeks ago on my BMT/Old AT lookaround with Sgt Rock and Jim. Them babies were good!

minnesotasmith
12-03-2007, 20:04
I would feel very safe if I were picking up a mail drop at those locations.

As, virtually all grocery store chains have abandoned that wreck of a city.

Jack, it's not reasonable IMO for you to bring up a subject, and then object to it being discussed. That's kind of a WD pattern.

SGT Rock
12-03-2007, 20:22
As, virtually all grocery store chains have abandoned that wreck of a city.

Jack, it's not reasonable IMO for you to bring up a subject, and then object to it being discussed. That's kind of a WD pattern.
Actually what I think you are missing is the fact that he is trying to gently nudge you away from doing it again - babbling. The problem is you post some darn good stuff, then start going off on a tangent that makes you look like a sexist, racist, or something else and lose that base of credibility. What makes you think that there are not people of mixed ethnic heritage on here that are now taking grand offense to the last few posting you have made?

minnesotasmith
12-03-2007, 21:34
Also, a multi-vitamin with minerals is not a bad idea.

Yes to a point. I carried them and took them regularly during my thruhike last year.

However, there are multiple limitations to multivits that prevent them from making up for a typically fecal-quality hiker diet.

1) Certain nutrients are too bulky to fit in a single small pill. For example, Calcium in my experience is not added to multis over about 10% of daily adult needs (and needs to be ingested more than once a day in any event).

2) Not all pills dissolve as intended. If one passes through the digestive system without completely dissolving (known in the trade as "bullets"), its nutritive worth will be below what its label indicates. This is not rare, BTW.

3) There are probably some essential nutrients not yet identified by scientists, which thus MUST come from eating food that contains it. An indication of this is how a defined nutrient growth media (solely consisting of specific pure known-essential chemicals) for microbes will not result in as fast of growth as one including complex supplements. So, frequently eating significant amounts of complex, nutrient-dense foods (primarily milk, liver, wheat germ, oily/cold-water fish and various "true" dark greens, with occasional egg WHITES, unroasted nuts, shellfish, and dark cane molasses) is advantageous for anyone, but especially serious hikers, the ill, young, elderly, etc.

4) The most insidious aspect to multivit pills IMO is how the definition of some nutrients is overly loose, resulting in synthetic versions of them being of reduced usefulness. This is IMO more of a problem for larger-molecular-weight ones such as vitamins than for simple minerals, although even those may have some variation in worth, depending on source. I read an abstract of a study that indicated that synthetic B-6 had only about 40% of the nutritional value as an equal quantity of biologic-(food) origin B-6.

One reason for this phenomenon is based on vitamins being organic (carbon and hydrogen) molecules, many of which exhibit a "handedness" called optical orientation, or "chirality". Consider your left and right hands; they are quite similiar in shape, but are not the same, being mirror images of each other impossible to superimpose on each other. Pairs of compounds with this property are called "enantiomers", or "racemates".

It is common for the simplest, least-expensive organic molecule syntheses to produce mixtures of equal amounts of the two racemates, often called "racemic mixtures". Unfortunately, it is common, even routine, for the human body to only be able to use one of these two racemates.

That said, it's best by far IMO to devise one's diet to try hard to not need multivits, while still making use of them. And, one should obtain the best-quality (ideally, biologic-origin) supplements.

Kirby
12-03-2007, 21:34
If it has not been mentioned, read Jack's resupply article in the article section of this website, it is very informative, and I have had several thru-hikers said it is a great tool for resupply planning.

Kirby

minnesotasmith
12-03-2007, 21:37
What makes you think that there are not people...on here that are now taking grand offense to the last few posting you have made?

Anyone mortally terrified of offending others by holding a viewpoint different from theirs will have great difficulty arriving at, or discussing, controversial-but-important truth.

minnesotasmith
12-03-2007, 21:39
If it has not been mentioned, read Jack's resupply article in the article section of this website, it is very informative, and I have had several thru-hikers said it is a great tool for resupply planning.

Kirby

I printed it out, and carried it with me on my thru last year. I also used it extensively for prehike mail-drop planning. Thank you, Jack, for sharing this great resource from your AT experience.

SGT Rock
12-03-2007, 21:43
Anyone mortally terrified of offending others by holding a viewpoint different from theirs will have great difficulty arriving at, or discussing, controversial-but-important truth.
That still isn't the point. Are you that thick?

How can someone be so smart and be so dull at the same time? Do you respond to directives?

Try this - drop it.

Kirby
12-03-2007, 22:21
I printed it out, and carried it with me on my thru last year. I also used it extensively for prehike mail-drop planning. Thank you, Jack, for sharing this great resource from your AT experience.

Anyone can chime in on this question.

When using Jack's resupply article, did you buy food as you go, and create mail drops as needed, or did you create your mail drops ahead of time based on the article?

Kirby

Skidsteer
12-03-2007, 22:44
Actually, I think Smitty would be happiest here:

www.whitecounty.net (http://www.whitecounty.net)

Gotta love than name......... :D

Hey! I live there, you know. :D

True story:

Around 1990 I lived in San Antonio, TX and my Father-In-Law, from Cleveland(White County), GA found a great deal on a pick-up truck for me. I took the bus to GA and drove the truck home to TX.

At work the next week I took my friend(black)out to the parking lot to show him my new truck. I pointed out the "White" decal on the license plate and told him that if he lived in GA, his plate would have a "Black" decal.

He thought about it long enough to give me a good headstart. :D

Hikerhead
12-03-2007, 22:47
That was funny. :)

minnesotasmith
12-03-2007, 23:29
When using Jack's resupply article, did you buy food as you go, and create mail drops as needed, or did you create your mail drops ahead of time based on the article?

Kirby

The majority of the food I ate while out on the Trail during my thruhike came from maildrops from back home. I set up most of them ahead of time, not sealing the boxes. My support person both adjusted those preset packages, sending them up to 3 weeks ahead of time, and made up new ones at my direction, sent to locations as I told them during my hike (normally 6-12 days lead time). I used Jack's resupply schedule suggestions (in combination with Wingfoot's book) to space out mail drops, to determine where to send them, and to figure places I did not need drops for significant percentages of my food. The latter mostly applied to large supermarkets either highly convenient to the Trail, or easily available to me BC I was going to go into the town in which they were located (usually to clean up, etc., at a hostel).

I had some specialty food items sent to me, even in the best/cheapest resupply locations, as they were difficult/impractical/impossible to find in regular grocery stores. Examples include freeze-dried broccoli and spinach, shelf-stable cheese (was rare then), dried cuttlefish, sushi-grade black dried Japanese seaweed sheets, various useful cherry-picked items from the 7 cases of MREs I obtained pre-hike, and compressed shelf-stable whole-grain imported (German) bread (also easier to find these days).

astrogirl
12-03-2007, 23:38
*** does THAT mean?

BTW, I probably ate more nutritiously on the Trail than 90% of other thruhikers last year. How many carried dried sushi-grade seaweed and freeze-dried spinach and broccoli, and never cooked ONE Ramen their whole hike?

I love ramen AND I carry wakame to put in it.

Seaweed is full of minerals lacking in a thruhiker's diet.

I loathe instant potatoes, and I don't know how hikers can eat so much of them.

minnesotasmith
12-03-2007, 23:40
I personally delivered a couple of boxes (including some infamous distilled water) to Neels Gap (my first resupply point) when I went there about 4 days before I started at Amicalola to buy some final gear items. I had planned to later that same day drop off a box at the Blueberry Patch hostel in Hiawassee, but one of the employees at Neels graciously offered to drop it off for me (they were going to drive to Hiawassee in the next several days in any event), so I appreciatively took them up on it. I also mailed a drop to the NOC before starting. I do not remember if I mailed my drop to Fontana before starting, or had my support person mail it after I started.

minnesotasmith
12-03-2007, 23:49
I love ramen AND I carry wakame to put in it.

Seaweed is full of minerals lacking in a thruhiker's diet.

I loathe instant potatoes, and I don't know how hikers can eat so much of them.

But, I can't justify Ramen with any frequency. White flour (nutrient-reduced, fiber-lacking, and turns right to insulin-inducing sugar in your blood), way too much sodium even for summer hiking, and worst of all, lots of PALM oil. PO is just about the most saturated grease you can find, right up there with or worse than beef tallow, lard, or coconut oil.

So, not only does PO have lots of highly undesirable superglue for your coronary arteries, it has reduced proportions of the essential fatty acids you DO need.

astrogirl
12-03-2007, 23:55
OP, Mozzie

If you really think that's what you want to mail drop yourself for 2000 miles, eat it for 6 days at home and see how it works out for you. Most people eat different food one day of the week on the trail on a town stop.

If you love it, then you'll know.

Mags
12-03-2007, 23:56
Here's something to think about that is rarely talked about on the AT. Sending maildrops from the trail while hiking. This is done regularly on the PCT.


That's what I did on past hikes. Wish I had thought about it for the AT.

It is a great compromise between "Buy as you go" and having food waiting for you in smaller towns.

Appalachian Tater
12-04-2007, 00:17
1) Certain nutrients are too bulky to fit in a single small pill. For example, Calcium in my experience is not added to multis over about 10% of daily adult needs (and needs to be ingested more than once a day in any event).

2) Not all pills dissolve as intended. If one passes through the digestive system without completely dissolving (known in the trade as "bullets"), its nutritive worth will be below what its label indicates. This is not rare, BTW.



You already carry many pounds of readily-accesible calcium in your skeleton. You don't want to rely on it for any length of time but it's there to keep your body working whenever it's needed.

I have never had a mulitvitamin pass through my system without dissolving. You can tell it dissolved if your urine turns bright yellow.


If it has not been mentioned, read Jack's resupply article in the article section of this website, it is very informative, and I have had several thru-hikers said it is a great tool for resupply planning.

Kirby

The beauty of Jack's resupply article is that it goes beyond resupply. After a couple of weeks, you know exactly where in his ranges of days to cover a given distance you will fall. In a way, he knows where you will be better than you do even if he never met you. In addition, the article gives little suggestions and hints.


Anyone can chime in on this question.

When using Jack's resupply article, did you buy food as you go, and create mail drops as needed, or did you create your mail drops ahead of time based on the article?

Kirby

Food drops are unnecessary. There are only three or maybe four places where they are needed. There are some really big grocery stores in places where you're likely to go and the small grocery stores have what you need. The only exception would be for someone on a special diet. There is way too much emphasis on mail drops. With postage so high, they don't save you money at all. Plus most people don't finish the trail and then have all that odd food. I still have poptarts from this summer I didn't eat while hiking--I wouldn't eat one at home if you paid me even though on the trail they make a great breakfast. Also, unless you've don't a lot of long-distance hiking in all seasons, how do you know what kinds of food and what quantities you will want four months into your hike?

Jan LiteShoe
12-04-2007, 01:58
Seems like it'd be easy enough to hard boil up to four eggs in an Imusa cup -- just did a couple on the supercat, just to test -- would you carry some for a quick snack? I think they'd be ok to the end of day.


You're right, that would be good. Boiled eggs don't keep as long as fresh, though, but should be fine in the cooler times of the hike.


Old Jack eats egg-whites and salmon. Heard him say: "People exceed the feed limit." "If you can't pronounce it, don't eat it." Clever.

What an excellent thread this is. I've been aware of many of these issues for awhile.

By the way, eggs carry well. Buy a dozen when you hit town and have a place to eat some and hard-boil the rest. I'd often carry a half-dozen out, and eat them over three days, There's hardly a handier breakfast.

As for Jack laLane, yes, he's still around! You're probably right about the swim. The old YouTube videos are a hoot. But the guy speaks from his heart.

Here's a video of the old man pulling a boat with his teeth, swimming backward:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QORwXyNb6E

He was well ahead of his time nutritionally and wholistically, but they called him a health nut. Here's his 10-point plan, which is common sense today but quite radical and a source of derision in the 50s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eB4cQO4sjo&feature=related
and his impassioned plea to control blod glucose:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJVEPB_l8FU

minnesotasmith
12-04-2007, 02:09
I have never had a mulitvitamin pass through my system without dissolving. You can tell it dissolved if your urine turns bright yellow.

All that that means is that you had at least part of the B-complex fraction of that pill go into your blood, and then into your urine. You could well have part of the B vitamins, or any other part of that pill go right through you, and you'd never know, unless perhaps you analyzed your feces. You didn't do that, did you?


Food drops are unnecessary.

So is lightweight hiking/camping gear, though it too is useful. What of it? My hike was more pleasant and I ate more nutritiously with using lots of mail drops.

There are some really big grocery stores in places where you're likely to go

Mostly, there weren't, actually.

and the small grocery stores have what you need.

Try and get decaf green tea, whole-grain Lipton/Knorrs Sides, and any of the foods I listed above as part of my mail drops in a Joe Bob's Grocery store.

The only exception would be for someone on a special diet.

As in, a nutritious one.

There is way too much emphasis on mail drops.

Why do you care if other people use mail drops to make their hikes more pleasant, convenient, or better-fed? Don't believe in HYOH?

With postage so high, they don't save you money at all.

There was a real, repeated satisfaction for me last year in not buying food at ripoff places in New England. I believe thieves should starve.

Plus most people don't finish the trail and then have all that odd food.

I managed to finish, plus I can use the leftover thruhike food for future hiking trips.


I still have poptarts from this summer I didn't eat while hiking--I wouldn't eat one at home if you paid me even though on the trail they make a great breakfast.

Actually, they're marginal nutritionally; white flour, too much sugar, no fiber, not much (if any) fruit, etc. They are inexpensive, familiar, moderately easy to store, require no cooking, and easy to find in a convenience store that is one of only 3 businesses in Deliverance, Virginia.

Also, unless you've don't a lot of long-distance hiking in all seasons, how do you know what kinds of food and what quantities you will want four months into your hike?

That is why you don't seal your maildrop packages pre-hike. Have your support person take out stuff you can't stand to look at anymore, and add in what you get cravings for, or simply find to work out well for you in a hiking situation. Besides, after reaching a certain age (not too far past mid-20s at the latest, I'd hope), people should come to know something about themselves and have some ability to predict their food tastes.

minnesotasmith
12-04-2007, 02:13
[quote=Jan LiteShoe;462624].

By the way, eggs carry well. Buy a dozen when you hit town and have a place to eat some and hard-boil the rest. I'd often carry a half-dozen out, and eat them over three days, There's hardly a handier breakfast.

Just remember to throw out the yolks. Satfat and water--best to skip. Better yet, of course, to not bring the yolks on the Trail with you to begin with.

Jan LiteShoe
12-04-2007, 02:16
[quote=Jan LiteShoe;462624].

By the way, eggs carry well. Buy a dozen when you hit town and have a place to eat some and hard-boil the rest. I'd often carry a half-dozen out, and eat them over three days, There's hardly a handier breakfast.

Just remember to throw out the yolks. Satfat and water--best to skip. Better yet, of course, to not bring the yolks on the Trail with you to begin with.

Also a good source of choline. Brain food.
Waste not, want not.
;-)

minnesotasmith
12-04-2007, 02:31
[quote=minnesotasmith;462632]

Also a good source of choline. Brain food.
Waste not, want not.
;-)

It would take almost FOUR egg yolks (with all that satfat and cholesterol) for a woman to get one day's RDA of choline from eggs (more for a man). A glass of skim milk has about the same amount of choline as an egg yolk, has calcium and other vitamins, and is easier to carry on the trail. Plus, liver contains significant choline, and the human body synthesizes a certain amount of it.

Some other worthwhile food sources for choline (notice any potential hiker foods here?):

butter, peanuts (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=101) and peanut butter, potatoes (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=48), cauliflower (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=13), tomatoes (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=44), banana (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=7), milk, oranges, lentils (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=52), oats (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=54), barley (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=127), corn (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=90), sesame seeds (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=84), flax seeds (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=81), and whole wheat bread.

Egg yolks? Put 'em in the trash where they belong.

CoyoteWhips
12-04-2007, 20:43
That is why you don't seal your maildrop packages pre-hike. Have your support person take out stuff you can't stand to look at anymore, and add in what you get cravings for, or simply find to work out well for you in a hiking situation.

Why isn't there a grocery store specializing in food drops for hikers? Yeah, probably only a couple hundred customers, but picking and shipping isn't rocket science.

minnesotasmith
12-04-2007, 20:49
Why isn't there a grocery store specializing in food drops for hikers? Yeah, probably only a couple hundred customers, but picking and shipping isn't rocket science.

Any hiker that's going to be out on a hiking trail enough days to consider resupplying before finishing (so might want a one-stop food mail drop supplier) would be a potential customer IMO. Imagine being on a hiking trail on a hill in the middle of nowhere where your cellphone or satphone works, calling a place with a 24-hour order line (credit card in hand), and being able to arrange a very decent maildrop for as little as 48 hours off to a place that gets mail, but has little or nothing to buy...

Yeah, there'd be hikers who'd make use of a service like that. :D

Jack Tarlin
12-04-2007, 20:49
You're right. It ain't rocket science. Which is why hikers can do it themselves, unless they're totaly clueless. Or you have reliable a "basecamp" person to handle your mail. It's not that hard.

Appalachian Tater
12-04-2007, 20:55
Minnesota Smith, I agree that if you eat weird stuff like shelf-stable whole grain bread from Germany or seaweed you need to do maildrops.

minnesotasmith
12-04-2007, 21:07
Minnesota Smith, I agree that if you eat weird stuff like shelf-stable whole grain bread from Germany or seaweed you need to do maildrops.

If using mail drops helps a thruhiker get markedly better nutrition during their hike, by avoiding a diet heavy in cr*p like Ramen, instant potatos, instant oatmeal, instant rice, white flour products, added-satfat PB, Tang/Kool-Aid, hot dogs, soft drinks, candy bars, etc., improving it by substituting whole-grained carbohydrates, low-satfat meats, sufficient protein and EFAs, Omega-3 sources (from fish or caplets), plenty of high-nutrition trail-practical concentrated vegetables, adequate calcium intake, etc., etc., so that their chances of finishing are significantly improved, don't you think that that is sufficient justification for using maildrops all by itself?

take-a-knee
12-04-2007, 21:31
[quote=Jan LiteShoe;462636]

It would take almost FOUR egg yolks (with all that satfat and cholesterol) for a woman to get one day's RDA of choline from eggs (more for a man). A glass of skim milk has about the same amount of choline as an egg yolk, has calcium and other vitamins, and is easier to carry on the trail. Plus, liver contains significant choline, and the human body synthesizes a certain amount of it.

Some other worthwhile food sources for choline (notice any potential hiker foods here?):

butter, peanuts (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=101) and peanut butter, potatoes (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=48), cauliflower (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=13), tomatoes (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=44), banana (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=7), milk, oranges, lentils (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=52), oats (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=54), barley (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=127), corn (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=90), sesame seeds (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=84), flax seeds (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=81), and whole wheat bread.

Egg yolks? Put 'em in the trash where they belong.

I have to differ with you on the egg yolk thing, one or two egg yolks per day isn't going to hurt anyone, and most of an egg's non-protein nutrition is in the yolk. There is no proven link between egg consumption and cholesterol levels, and there is no proven link between cholesterol levels and artery disease. The drug companies have hyped this to make a lot of money selling statin drugs, and then selling more drugs to counteract the side effects of the statins. The whole paradigm of what causes atherosclerosis is changing towards inflammation being the trigger that causes arterial disease. The first clue to this was an elevated C reactive protein being a far more reliable predictor of plaque formation than cholesterol levels.

So, boil up a half-dozen eggs and eat one or two yolks and chunk the rest as you eat the eggs. Don't eat six eggs whites on a hot day unless you are drinking LOTS of water.

Appalachian Tater
12-04-2007, 21:37
If using mail drops helps a thruhiker get markedly better nutrition during their hike, by avoiding a diet heavy in cr*p like Ramen, instant potatos, instant oatmeal, instant rice, white flour products, added-satfat PB, Tang/Kool-Aid, hot dogs, soft drinks, candy bars, etc., improving it by substituting whole-grained carbohydrates, low-satfat meats, sufficient protein and EFAs, Omega-3 sources (from fish or caplets), plenty of high-nutrition trail-practical concentrated vegetables, adequate calcium intake, etc., etc., so that their chances of finishing are significantly improved, don't you think that that is sufficient justification for using maildrops all by itself?

No, I don't. For most people that diet is unreasonable. A thru-hike is not the time to go vegetarian, stop eating carbohydrates, or to force yourself to eat seaweed. If I wanted to eat good food I would cook and dehydrate real meals, none of that yukky health food crap like whole wheat macaroni, seaweed, or wheat germ. That stuff tastes awful. Also, fish oil can have high levels of mercury and it makes me burp and the burps smell fishy and that makes me nauseated.

Kirby
12-04-2007, 21:58
No, I don't. For most people that diet is unreasonable. A thru-hike is not the time to go vegetarian, stop eating carbohydrates, or to force yourself to eat seaweed. If I wanted to eat good food I would cook and dehydrate real meals, none of that yukky health food crap like whole wheat macaroni, seaweed, or wheat germ. That stuff tastes awful. Also, fish oil can have high levels of mercury and it makes me burp and the burps smell fishy and that makes me nauseated.

Whole weat macaroni tastes nasty anyways.

Kirby

SGT Rock
12-04-2007, 22:03
So does corn pasta. Yech.

Appalachian Tater
12-04-2007, 22:13
Rice pasta is good, though. Tastes like rice.

SGT Rock
12-04-2007, 22:16
Sounds like something to try, although I may have already tried that. Some oriental noodles I've eaten may have been rice pasta?

minnesotasmith
12-05-2007, 01:29
No, I don't. For most people that diet is unreasonable. A thru-hike is not the time to go vegetarian, stop eating carbohydrates, or to force yourself to eat seaweed. If I wanted to eat good food I would cook and dehydrate real meals, none of that yukky health food crap like whole wheat macaroni, seaweed, or wheat germ. That stuff tastes awful. Also, fish oil can have high levels of mercury and it makes me burp and the burps smell fishy and that makes me nauseated.

1) Check out the book "The Paleodiet" (book and website by a female medical anthropologist). Apparently, for over 99% of the time humans have existed, their diet contained very little satfat, most fat coming from plant sources, few sugars other than from whole fruit, and few simple starches (like white flour or polished rice, as opposed to whole grains when they could get them). As has been noted earlier in this thread, the modern Western diet as the unaware follow it is linked to many illnesses.

2) I advised earlier against being a vegetarian due to the neccessary nutrients that are difficult to obtain in adequate quantity and quality.

3) Agreed that a thruhike is not the ideal time to make all kinds of changes in one's diet to make it more healthy. NOW is the time to start eating healthily, so to make it a lifelong pattern. An aspiring thruhiker would do best to be as healthy as possible BEFORE starting his hike; that means not only weight and exercise fitness, but nutrition.

4) Whole-grain macaroni CAN have sauces added to it. Spice up what you mix with it, and you'll not have an issue with its taste. I now prefer skim milk and whole-wheat bread over the greasy/nutrient-reduced the nutritionally unaware commonly eat.

Mags
12-05-2007, 01:51
I find the "see food" diet worked well for me on thru-hikes. I saw food in the grocery store, I bought it, I ate it, I hiked. :D

When can talk about nutrition until the cows come home, but all I know is that my hikes were fueled by Snickers, Mac n' Cheese, Stove Top, Little Debbies (and burgers and ice cream in town) and somehow I manged to do X amount of miles over the years.

(Here's a perenial "favorite". My chart from the Colorado Trail of the food I ate! (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46&Itemid=33) )

When I am off trail, I try to eat lean meat, fresh veggies and non-processed food in general (but still love my post-hike burger and beer!).

So I think you'll do fine with a "buy as you go" (With some possible mail drops ahead to places like Harpers Ferry, Fontana Dam and other points like A-train, Baltimore Jack and other have mentioned). I suspect there is a reason why most former thru-hikers lean strongly to the "Buy as you go" plan on the AT!

Appalachian Tater
12-05-2007, 08:45
1) Check out the book "The Paleodiet" (book and website by a female medical anthropologist).

Does it somehow impress you that a female could write a book?

I never met a sauce I didn't like except for some made from fermented fish, but I don't use them to make unpleasant foods palatable. If something tastes bad, I just don't eat it. That lessons my chances of being poisoned.

DavidNH
12-05-2007, 09:52
I wood say.. Have a mail drop if you are going to spend the night in a town, or if you are passing through the town and there is no good market. Any more than that makes little sense. You COULD get by with zero mail drops.

Places that really make sense for a mail drop

NOC
Fontana Dam
Perrisburg (this is a good place to switch winter bag for summer bag)
Glencliff
maybe Monson.

It makes no sense to have a mail drop in a place like, for example, Hanover, NH where the trail goes right past the Hanover Coop. Also I think it is Davisville, VA where the trail goes to with in about 0.3 miles of what seemed to me the biggest supermarket in the univers..Krogers.

David

astrogirl
12-05-2007, 09:59
If I wanted to eat good food I would cook and dehydrate real meals, none of that yukky health food crap like whole wheat macaroni, seaweed, or wheat germ. That stuff tastes awful.

OMG! What a sweeping statement. I like all three of those things, and I'm no health food nut. To each his own.

Jan LiteShoe
12-05-2007, 11:15
[quote=Jan LiteShoe;462636]

It would take almost FOUR egg yolks (with all that satfat and cholesterol) for a woman to get one day's RDA of choline from eggs (more for a man). A glass of skim milk has about the same amount of choline as an egg yolk, has calcium and other vitamins, and is easier to carry on the trail. Plus, liver contains significant choline, and the human body synthesizes a certain amount of it.

Some other worthwhile food sources for choline (notice any potential hiker foods here?):

butter, peanuts (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=101) and peanut butter, potatoes (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=48), cauliflower (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=13), tomatoes (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=44), banana (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=7), milk, oranges, lentils (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=52), oats (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=54), barley (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=127), corn (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=90), sesame seeds (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=84), flax seeds (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=81), and whole wheat bread.

Egg yolks? Put 'em in the trash where they belong.

Here's an excellent layman's site on the nutritional benefits of eggs, with the science references listed at the bottom:http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=92#healthbenefits


I think people are waking up to the fact that the human diet is changing, and not for the better.
For those interested in taking another look at their nutrition in general (if we are what we eat), here's a terrific starting point, a website that goes into incredible detail on the world's healthiest foods (including MS's favorite blackstrap molasses):
http://whfoods.org/foodstoc.php

You can sign up for simple, healthy recipes to be emailed to you. I'm doing the mushroom-barley soup tonight (thank god for Crock-pots!). Low on the glycemic index and stuffed with healthy mushrooms.

Like Mags, off-trail I tend to eat whole, unprcessed foods. Reading labels these days tends to be an alarming process for the informed. (Note: these are not the foods our parents grew up eating, and they have more to do with economics than sound nutrition).

From the FAQ at the bottom of the URL listed above:"
FAQs about the World's Healthiest Foods (http://whfoods.org/faqstoc.php)
Criteria for The World's Healthiest Foods
Among the thousands of different foods our world provides, the majority contain at least several of the nutrients our bodies need but to be included as one of the World's Healthiest Foods they had to meet the criteria listed below.
The criteria we used will also help you understand why some of your favorite (and also nutritious) foods may not be included on our list. For example, Readers have asked why pomegranate, a very nutritious food, is not included on our website. While pomegranates taste great and are rich in vitamins and flavonoid phytonutrients, they are still rather expensive which makes them not as widely available to many people.
1. The World's Healthiest Foods are the Most Nutrient Dense
The World's Healthiest Foods have been selected because they are among the richest sources of many of the essential nutrients needed for optimal health. We used a concept called nutrient density to determine which foods have the highest nutritional value.
Nutrient density is a measure of the amount of nutrients a food contains in comparison to the number of calories. A food is more nutrient dense when the level of nutrients is high in relationship to the number of calories the food contains. By eating the World's Healthiest Foods, you'll get all the essential nutrients that you need for excellent health, including vitamins, minerals, phytonutrients, essential fatty acids, fiber and more for the least number of calories. Read more about Our Food and Recipe Rating System (http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=faq&dbid=22).
2. The World's Healthiest Foods are Whole Foods
The World's Healthiest Foods are also whole foods complete with all their rich natural endowment of nutrients. They have not been highly processed nor do they contain synthetic, artificial or irradiated ingredients. And whenever possible, The Healthier Way of Eating recommends purchasing "Organically Grown" foods, since they not only promote your health, but also the health of our planet."



Bon apetit!
:)

minnesotasmith
12-05-2007, 14:56
I find the "see food" diet worked well for me on thru-hikes. I saw food in the grocery store, I bought it, I ate it, I hiked. :D

When can talk about nutrition until the cows come home, but all I know is that my hikes were fueled by Snickers, Mac n' Cheese, Stove Top, Little Debbies (and burgers and ice cream in town)

Ah, what corner-cutting the young can get away with. Those of us who are older (or the younger wanting to maximize their pace and/or odds of completing a major hike) need to be more detail-oriented WRT their trail diets, among other things...;)

minnesotasmith
12-05-2007, 15:05
Does it somehow impress you that a female could write a book?

I am of course aware that the majority of human geniuses (and morons) have always been male, not to mention the majority of writers of transcendant-quality books. However, I consider the most important nonscience-subject author of the 1900s to be a woman.

I was simply giving a more full description of the author of the "Paleo Diet" book, whose name escaped me at the time.

Mags
12-05-2007, 15:07
Ah, what corner-cutting the young can get away with. Those of us who are older (or the younger wanting to maximize their pace and/or odds of completing a major hike) need to be more detail-oriented WRT their trail diets, among other things...;)


..or those who just want to make life more difficult for themselves? ;)

( Max my pace? Cripe... that's funny)

minnesotasmith
12-05-2007, 15:58
I don't deny that some high-satfat foods have some worthwhile nutrients. I simply advocate obtaining those nutrients from other sources that don't have that drawback. If anyone can list a nutrient found in egg yolks that can't easily be found in other foods, I'd like to see it.

mudhead
12-06-2007, 06:36
..or those who just want to make life more difficult for themselves? ;)

( Max my pace? Cripe... that's funny)


Hey Mags-

If you had eaten the MS way, you might have been able to walk more than six miles per day. I heard you ate Little Debbie.

Appalachian Tater
12-06-2007, 08:35
However, I consider the most important nonscience-subject author of the 1900s to be a woman.

I'm sure she appreciates an endorsement from such a forward-thinking person but she probably didn't need you to consider whether or not she was a woman.

Mags
12-06-2007, 11:32
Hey Mags-

If you had eaten the MS way, you might have been able to walk more than six miles per day.

If only I could match MS' pace. Sigh.... :)

CaseyB
12-06-2007, 11:42
Re-read MS's last couple of posts: He mentioned the 1st author was female only b/c he couldn't remember her name. 2nd female author referenced only to defend himself. Just say'n.

mudhead
12-06-2007, 12:29
If only I could match MS' pace. Sigh.... :)
After you break a leg, maybe.

Re-read MS's last couple of posts: He mentioned the 1st author was female only b/c he couldn't remember her name. 2nd female author referenced only to defend himself. Just say'n.

While he has not yet crossed the line, he is approaching "I wouldn't fart in a bottle for him if he were suffocating," status.

It's a Maine thing.

minnesotasmith
12-06-2007, 12:37
I'm sure she appreciates an endorsement from such a forward-thinking person but she probably didn't need you to consider whether or not she was a woman.

1) The author in question had regrettably passed on before I ever read her books.

2) Look up the training regime for any medal-winning Olympic athletes in events where physical fitness is a consideration (running, swimming, skating, weight-lifting, etc.), and see if you can find ONE that does not consider proper nutrition to be a major concern for them.

3) I was in my mid-40s, heavy, and still finished a thruhike, when the majority of the under-30, slender, fit, longer-legged aspiring thruhikers quit. I had 3 days over 18 miles, and over 10 over 17. I think that, in the condition I finished the AT, I could have turned around and knocked it out in a shorter time period than most under-30s complete one. You get two choices as to why I finished IMO; either something inside me most don't have, or better nutrition.

mudhead
12-06-2007, 12:42
You did good.

Now lighten up.

Save some of that stuff you spew.

minnesotasmith
12-06-2007, 13:04
You did good.

Now lighten up.

Save some of that stuff you spew.

If you can disprove my points (on any subject), feel free to try, using facts and logic. Simply saying "your position is wrong solely BC it makes me uncomfortable to consider making a change in my thinking" is NOT a refutation, or even worth posting.
==============================================

So, back to nutrition...

Can ANYONE list a single nutrient found in egg yolks not easily found in easily-available lower-sat fat foods? If not, then my point stands that egg yolks should be skipped as much as possible by anyone wanting to maximize the healthfulness of their diet.

Jack Tarlin
12-06-2007, 15:11
Smitty:

I applaud your finish, and am particularly pleased that you persevered when so many folks predicted you'd quit.

But there's something you left out of your above post, which was the LENGTH of your hike. It's great that you finished, but most folks don't have that much time, i.e. most folks will have to do bigger daily miles than you did, simply becuuase they don't have seven months or more to hike in.

minnesotasmith
12-06-2007, 15:18
Smitty:

I applaud your finish, and am particularly pleased that you persevered when so many folks predicted you'd quit.

But there's something you left out of your above post, which was the LENGTH of your hike. It's great that you finished, but most folks don't have that much time, i.e. most folks will have to do bigger daily miles than you did, simply becuuase they don't have seven months or more to hike in.

Jack, I developed as a hiker to the point that I could do a thruhike again at a much faster pace, at least at average now. I think that that gives me some credibility on the subject of thruhiking, especially when conversing with people with NO major LD hiking experience.

Jack Tarlin
12-06-2007, 15:25
Smith:

Of course you have credibility. Maybe not a lot of tact, but credibility, yeah.

All I'm saying is that your trip was a lot longer than most people's hikes, and that since most people don't have that much time to devote to their trip, they'll have to achieve a higher mile-per-day average than you did.

This isn't meant in any way to criticize you or how you hiked; I'm merely pointing out that most folks are limited to 24 to 27 weeks and need to keep this in mind.

rickb
12-06-2007, 23:16
Jack, I developed as a hiker to the point that I could do a thruhike again ...

Is it a thru hike if you don't start at one end and walk straight thru to the other?

Or is it a disconected 2000 mile hike?

Comes close though.

minnesotasmith
12-07-2007, 01:58
Is it a thru hike if you don't start at one end and walk straight thru to the other?

Or is it a disconected 2000 mile hike?

Comes close though.

I walked every mile of the AT in one calendar year, doing my d*mndest to pass every white blaze. That's a generally considered a thruhike, by >99% of people. It's also what the ATC, and I, FWIW, consider a thruhike.
=============================================
Anyway, my earlier point keeps getting missed...

I developed as a hiker during my hike, despite the age, weight, and fitness situation I started with, to the point that not only did I finish the AT, I got fit to the point that I (just doing the math by my routinely doing 13-mile-days in MAINE, with higher days in VT/MA/CT) became capable of thruing in an average or less length of time, were I to do it again. There are reasons for that, and I believe that my greater-than-average (among thruhikers) attention to nutrition was one of them.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-07-2007, 06:18
However you hike, the important thing is that you do hike. Some have more stringent time limits than others. I'm retired and it will probably take me years to hike the AT, but the important thing is that I get out there.

Smitty makes a good point about nutrition. I've found that as I've gotten older I have to pay more attention to that in order to be able to hike. When I was a younger Dino, I could hoot with the owls and soar with the eagles fueled by Snicker Bars. Today I need something more substantial to be able to soar with the eagles - and hooting with the owls no longer interest me.

A thank you to Jan LiteShoe for her contribution to this thread.

Marta
12-07-2007, 08:15
MS--You are perfectly correct in saying you have some credibility when you describe the techniques you used to finish YOUR hike. However, other people have also thru-hiked the AT using entirely different methods, including nutritional methods. Mags, for example, finished not only the AT, but has also done a bit more hiking since then. He ate entirely differently than you did. More horribly than that, there have even been vegetarians and vegans who eat lots of soy products, and still tear up the trail.

My conclusion: There is no one diet that will guarantee a successful AT hike.

Logical fallacy--saying that because you finished a hike doing such and such, doing that thing is essential for all hikers.
Example--I, Baltimore Jack, completed XXX thru-hikes of the AT while smoking, therefore smoking is essential to being able to complete the AT.


Extrapolation:
1) It's okay to say "This is what worked for me."
2) It's jerky to say "This worked for me and therefore you must do it, too. In fact, whatever I have done is much better than what you have done, and you're in denial of reality if you don't capitulate and confess the error of your ways."

But now I'm starting to act like a jerk myself, so I'll shut up.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-07-2007, 08:20
My Dearest Marta,

I must ask you to refrain from interjecting the truth and popping fallacy bubbles. We will be unable to proceed with this discussion if you continue this practice.

Sincerely,
F. Dino

:D:D:D

Marta
12-07-2007, 08:33
My Dearest Marta,

I must ask you to refrain from interjecting the truth and popping fallacy bubbles. We will be unable to proceed with this discussion if you continue this practice.

Sincerely,
F. Dino

:D:D:D

Sorry.:o

mudhead
12-07-2007, 08:59
Well stated.

Now, be careful where you park...

Appalachian Tater
12-07-2007, 09:00
Re-read MS's last couple of posts: He mentioned the 1st author was female only b/c he couldn't remember her name. 2nd female author referenced only to defend himself. Just say'n.

Google?

Mags
12-07-2007, 11:22
More horribly than that, there have even been vegetarians and vegans who eat lots of soy products, and still tear up the trail.




Check out Scott Jurek. (http://www.scottjurek.com/)He's the Lance Armstrong of ultra running (minus the whole doping allegations. :D)..he won the Western States 100 mile seven years in a row. And is a vegan...

Now..anyone want a burger and beer? :) (I know I do...)

minnesotasmith
12-07-2007, 13:20
Google?

What are you asking here?

take-a-knee
12-07-2007, 13:40
Check out Scott Jurek. (http://www.scottjurek.com/)He's the Lance Armstrong of ultra running (minus the whole doping allegations. :D)..he won the Western States 100 mile seven years in a row. And is a vegan...

Now..anyone want a burger and beer? :) (I know I do...)

Jack LaLanne has been a near vegan (a little fish I think, and milk and eggs) longer than most people will live (he's 93) and he's maintained an impressive muscle mass.

minnesotasmith
12-07-2007, 17:54
Jack LaLanne has been a near vegan (a little fish I think, and milk and eggs) longer than most people will live (he's 93) and he's maintained an impressive muscle mass.

Not getting enough (that's fully usable) is not ideal, either. That's why I advocate protein complementation with plant products as much as possible, which is considerably easier with just a little meat or milk eaten at the same meal.

take-a-knee
12-07-2007, 18:18
Not getting enough (that's fully usable) is not ideal, either. That's why I advocate protein complementation with plant products as much as possible, which is considerably easier with just a little meat or milk eaten at the same meal.

Oh I agree with you MS, I don't think the average american gets enough protein, or at least not enough to support an active lifestyle. I believe this contributes to a lot of failed "get-in-shape" programs and failed thru-hikes. The rice and beans, bread and milk thing is a much healthier way to go as you say. I don't see any harm in 2-4oz of lean meat per meal either, or a three-egg omlet with two yolks discarded.

minnesotasmith
12-08-2007, 20:09
The rice and beans, bread and milk thing is a much healthier way to go as you say. I don't see any harm in 2-4oz of lean meat per meal either, or a three-egg omlet with two yolks discarded.

Definitely. Do make it brown rice and skim (potentially including powdered) milk as much as possible. (Sadly, the desirable unsat oils in the hulls of brown rice are subject to oxidation and resulting undesirable rancidity much more so than polished, or white, rice, so brown does not keep nearly as long as white.)

Too, I find a mixture solely of egg whites and skim milk makes a perfectly acceptable batter for French toast (whole-grain bread only, of course). Recipes calling for whole eggs such as baked goods can generally be altered with no effect on the finished product by adding just the white, along with a bit of a (non-soybean) cooking oil.

Re protein intake in general, though...

When I consider how much protein is in an average-sized steak some typical guy's wolfing down on Friday night at Outback (along with a baked potato drowning in butter and full-fat sour cream, a sugary soft drink or booze, and no non-lettuce vegetables), or even in 3 hamburgers (likely with greasy salted potato fries, a sugary soft drink or sugary fatty milkshake, and no vegetables beyond lettuce/pickle/tomato at best), it's hard to conclude that insufficient protein is that guy's main nutritional issue.

Potatos are effectively refined starches, even if you dig up a raw whole in a farmer's field one and start chowing. This is due to them being essentially fiber-free, the fiber in whole grains such as wheat, rye, and oats slowing down the conversion of starch to sugar. This latter desirably limits the body overreacting with a flood of insulin, which enough times over long enough predisposes the body to diabetes. That is my rationale for limiting all potato products, as effectively NONE of them are whole-grain.

Thruhikers, sure, I think many of them skimp on protein while actually on the Trail, hoping to make it up during town stops. (Not much protein in beer, smoked tobacco, or reefers, though...) ;)

I still believe that thruhikers' most common and most serious nutritional deficiencies on average are:

1) Calcium

2) The vitamins contained in dark green leafy vegetables (C and K especially)

3) Biologic-origin B-complex vitamins (wheat germ, brewer's yeast, and to a lesser extent, many whole grains being excellent sources of these)

4) Grossly excessive levels of refined starches (e.g., any white flour, including macaroni/pasta noodles, white bread, instant white rice) and simple sugars

5) Insufficient dietary fiber, both soluble and insoluble.

6) For those not taking (good-quality) mineral supplements, microminerals in absorbable form

7) Episodic alcohol abuse (booze depletes bodily vitamins, just as many soy products, undercooked beans and peas, and large amounts of added simple sugars do)

==============================================

An aside on yeast supplements: while yeast contains high concentrations of multiple nutrients, especially B-complex vitamins, it is unwise to consume high levels of it over long periods. This is due to the very high levels of nucleic acids in yeast, multiples of that contained in meat. This can cause chronic symptoms of gout-like illness, just as Medieval kings existing almost solely on a diet of meat and possibly alcohol or sweets were widely subject to.

======================================

Some more thoughts on vitamins: there are fundamentally two types nutritionally. There are oil-soluble vitamins, which the body can store for considerable times, but which potentially can be taken in excess to the point that actual illness results. These are A and D. Water-soluble vitamins (B-complex and C) have to be replenished more often, but are far less likely, even when consumed at astronomic levels, to cause serious harm, the excess above bodily needs simply being excreted. The saying is that Americans have the most expensive urine in the world... ;)

There is some evidence that synthetic C (especially the lower-quality stuff from places like China) can at high levels inflict some urinary-tract irritation. This is apparently not the case for biologic-origin C, so chow down on all the oranges and leafy greens you want. Note that C is VERY easily damaged by heat, arguably more so than just about any other vitamin, so dried fruits and vegetables (not so for freeze-dried) and orange and other fruit juices made up from concentrates may have major losses compared to fresh sources.

E is technically an oil-soluble vitamin, but seems to be an exception to the guideline that OSs taken in gross excess have a fair probability of causing harm (A is the worst for this). Of course, E is most commonly extracted from wheat germ, so is biologic-origin, rather than largely synthesized as are most other vitamins, so this may be part of the reason there's no significant vitamin-excess-risk for hitting the E caplets or wheat germs heavily.

minnesotasmith
12-08-2007, 20:10
The rice and beans, bread and milk thing is a much healthier way to go as you say. I don't see any harm in 2-4oz of lean meat per meal either, or a three-egg omlet with two yolks discarded.

Definitely. Do make it brown rice and skim (potentially including powdered) milk as much as possible. (Sadly, the desirable unsat oils in the hulls of brown rice are subject to oxidation and resulting undesirable rancidity much more so than polished, or white, rice, so brown does not keep nearly as long as white.)

Too, I find a mixture solely of egg whites and skim milk makes a perfectly acceptable batter for French toast (whole-grain bread only, of course). Recipes calling for whole eggs such as baked goods can generally be altered with no effect on the finished product by adding just the white, along with a bit of a (non-soybean) cooking oil.

Re protein intake in general, though...

When I consider how much protein is in an average-sized steak some typical guy's wolfing down on Friday night at Outback (along with a baked potato drowning in butter and full-fat sour cream, a sugary soft drink or booze, and no non-lettuce vegetables), or even in 3 hamburgers (likely with greasy salted potato fries, a sugary soft drink or sugary fatty milkshake, and no vegetables beyond lettuce/pickle/tomato at best), it's hard to conclude that insufficient protein is that guy's main nutritional issue.

Potatos are effectively refined starches, even if you dig up a raw whole in a farmer's field one and start chowing. This is due to them being essentially fiber-free, the fiber in whole grains such as wheat, rye, and oats slowing down the conversion of starch to sugar. This latter desirably limits the body overreacting with a flood of insulin, which enough times over long enough predisposes the body to diabetes. That is my rationale for limiting all potato products, as effectively NONE of them are whole-grain.

Thruhikers, sure, I think many of them skimp on protein while actually on the Trail, hoping to make it up during town stops. (Not much protein in beer, smoked tobacco, or reefers, though...) ;)

I still believe that thruhikers' most common and most serious nutritional deficiencies on average are:

1) Calcium

2) The vitamins contained in dark green leafy vegetables (C and K especially)

3) Biologic-origin B-complex vitamins (wheat germ, brewer's yeast, and to a lesser extent, many whole grains being excellent sources of these)

4) Grossly excessive levels of refined starches (e.g., any white flour, including macaroni/pasta noodles, white bread, instant white rice) and simple sugars

5) Insufficient dietary fiber, both soluble and insoluble.

6) For those not taking (good-quality) mineral supplements, microminerals in absorbable form

7) Episodic alcohol abuse (booze depletes bodily vitamins, just as many soy products, undercooked beans and peas, and large amounts of added simple sugars do)

==============================================

An aside on yeast supplements: while yeast contains high concentrations of multiple nutrients, especially B-complex vitamins, it is unwise to consume high levels of it over long periods. This is due to the very high levels of nucleic acids in yeast, multiples of that contained in meat. This can cause chronic symptoms of gout-like illness, just as Medieval kings existing almost solely on a diet of meat and possibly alcohol or sweets were widely subject to.

======================================

Some more thoughts on vitamins: there are fundamentally two types nutritionally. There are oil-soluble vitamins, which the body can store for considerable times, but which potentially can be taken in excess to the point that actual illness results. These are A and D. Water-soluble vitamins (B-complex and C) have to be replenished more often, but are far less likely, even when consumed at astronomic levels, to cause serious harm, the excess above bodily needs simply being excreted. The saying is that Americans have the most expensive urine in the world... ;)

There is some evidence that synthetic C (especially the lower-quality stuff from places like China) can at high levels inflict some urinary-tract irritation. This is apparently not the case for biologic-origin C, so chow down on all the oranges and leafy greens you want. Note that C is VERY easily damaged by heat, arguably more so than just about any other vitamin, so dried fruits and vegetables (not so for freeze-dried) and orange and other fruit juices made up from concentrates may have major losses compared to fresh sources.

E is technically an oil-soluble vitamin, but seems to be an exception to the guideline that OSs taken in gross excess have a fair probability of causing harm (A is the worst for this). Of course, E is most commonly extracted from wheat germ, so supplements of it are usually biologic-origin, rather than largely synthesized as are most other vitamins in supplements, so this may be part of the reason there's no significant vitamin-excess-risk for hitting the E caplets or wheat germs heavily.

take-a-knee
12-08-2007, 23:00
MS, that is an interesting point about a thru hiker's diet being defecient in Vit C, that nutrient is essential in collagen formation (a protein), and collagen makes up about 25% of bone mass. I think about 25% of bone is calcium. Calcium is also essential for muscle contraction, like carrying a heavy pack uphill.

So, if your diet is deficient in calcium, protein, and Vit C (and who knows what else) this appears to be a sure fire recipe for a weakened bone structure (stress fracture). Tendons and ligaments have an even higher percentage of collagen in their structure.

You should INCREASE your bone mass from a long-distance hike, but this can't happen without the proper building blocks.

minnesotasmith
12-10-2007, 11:28
Could one of you delete my duplicate post above?

Thanks!

Appalachian Tater
12-10-2007, 11:42
Could one of you delete my duplicate post above?

Thanks!

If you donated $10, you could fix your own mistakes. You couldn't completely delete your post, but you could reduce its generous bulk down to ten characters.

You might also consider a PM to a mod rather than a post asking for another post to be deleted, which merely compounds the problem of unneccessary, meaningless posts.

CoyoteWhips
12-10-2007, 18:54
I agree with much of what Minnasota Smith says about diet. However, I don't think any paleolithic man in his right mind would toss out the yokes from his eggs.

Neither would I.

Especially if I carried them for two days.

Singto
06-27-2015, 03:30
I walked every mile of the AT in one calendar year, doing my d*mndest to pass every white blaze. That's a generally considered a thruhike, by >99% of people. It's also what the ATC, and I, FWIW, consider a thruhike.
=============================================
Anyway, my earlier point keeps getting missed...

I developed as a hiker during my hike, despite the age, weight, and fitness situation I started with, to the point that not only did I finish the AT, I got fit to the point that I (just doing the math by my routinely doing 13-mile-days in MAINE, with higher days in VT/MA/CT) became capable of thruing in an average or less length of time, were I to do it again. There are reasons for that, and I believe that my greater-than-average (among thruhikers) attention to nutrition was one of them.

You may consider Thru hiking whatever you want, for yourself but as for the ATC, try again. Straight from the ATC website:
Thru Hiking A thru-hiker is a hiker or backpacker who has completed or is attempting to walk the entire Appalachian Trail in a 12-month period (not necessarily a calendar year).

I found this in 30 seconds, after remembering reading it during my research.

Sorry, but people who publish wrong information need to be corrected.

Tuckahoe
06-27-2015, 06:13
Ha ha ha ha ha... this is awesome...

You do know that you are trying to correct the great Minnesota Smith, don't ya? And he completed his thru-hike some 10 years ago, and hasn't been on this site for some time either.

Great zombie thread.

Traveler
06-27-2015, 06:49
<Making zombie noises>

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.Tk%2f%2fDrscC5vJPjn6OrQHxg&pid=15.1&P=0

kayak karl
06-27-2015, 10:43
The names on this thread bring back memories :)>

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kayak karl
06-27-2015, 10:47
Look at take-a-knee post 2007. He mentions Scott Jurek :)

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Starchild
07-04-2015, 14:21
You may consider Thru hiking whatever you want, for yourself but as for the ATC, try again. Straight from the ATC website:
Thru Hiking A thru-hiker is a hiker or backpacker who has completed or is attempting to walk the entire Appalachian Trail in a 12-month period (not necessarily a calendar year).

I found this in 30 seconds, after remembering reading it during my research.

Sorry, but people who publish wrong information need to be corrected.

Not only that but it also allows bypassing white blazed sections for safety reasons 'even by vehicle' is allowed.


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takethisbread
07-05-2015, 14:01
Quoting a post from 8 years ago, from a guy a who might not be alive about a thruhike 10 years ago is pretty awesome . Btw I side Minnesota Smith on what's a thruhike oddly enough.


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kayak karl
07-05-2015, 16:48
MS is alive and well acourting to Matty:)

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