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SunnyWalker
11-03-2007, 22:52
I was on the At in Ga this last July and camped in my HH the entire week. Had a few friends who were in the shelters. They told me the mice ran across their sleeping bags and such. And I remember on Whiteblaze and others reading of the mice. Here is my queston: Are dogs good for the control of mice in the shelters? If you have your dog with you in the shelter or near it do the mice stay away? Perhaps this is impractical? -Cuz on a thru hike others do not want your dog IN the shelter, mice be dammed? Thanks folks. I never considered bringing my dog but if it helps and keeps mice away I might and then leave my HH at home and have a lighter pack? neat. -SunnyWalker

SlowLightTrek
11-03-2007, 22:58
yea i think the mice and the bears and probalby the racoons too.

Lone Wolf
11-04-2007, 00:24
sure. bring a dog. they're totally welcome in shelters

Adam B
11-04-2007, 00:48
Umm, besides dogs in shelters... My last dog, Axyz used to go mousing in the back fields with her friend and bodyguard Max the doberman. At least until the fateful day she did without Max and the mice decide to change some things. She tracked one vole out of it's hole and the damn thing fought back. It was up on it's hind legs, screaming bloody murder and biting Axyz's nose. Finally she couldn't take it and ran away from it and wouldn't mouse again.

Or perhaps the day that a mouse got stuck in her food bag. Once she found out she wouldn't go near the bag after that. Yeah she was pretty useless for hunting mice but she would have warmed even the hardest heart. So many people would careful explain the dangers of pitbulls while mine was on their feet planning sneak kiss attacks on their nose or chin. My favorite use is sharing a bed with another warm body. Worth the weight of my little hammock.

Of course my current dog is in mourning for his little bunny friend. We had a rabbit in the yard that lived under the deck. It would run around the yard with Timber and all was well. Well some animal has killed poor bunny and Timber decided to bring me bunny peice by peice. Until he brought me the handquarters and we removed it. He has taken to waiting for bunny to come out from under the deck. Yup useless for the real animal stuff, can play alarm clock but can't protect from other animals.
Adam

Smile
11-04-2007, 01:28
I don't think too many hikers would appreciate a "mousing" dog running all over them at night- mice or no mice. Chomp :)

Didn't I read somewhere (WB) about a guy who took a cat, or dropped off a cat at a shelter or something due to a mouse problem?

Appalachian Tater
11-04-2007, 12:54
The only mouseless shelters have mouse-eating snakes in residence.

Rouen
11-04-2007, 12:58
I recall reading somewhere that Healds wonderdog Annie use to go nuts on mice in shelters. I've also heard that if a dog is present the mice tend to stay away, or be a little more cautious.

Dakota Dan
11-04-2007, 13:04
The only mouseless shelters have mouse-eating snakes in residence.


I bet the shelters have more snakes under, in and around them than you would think. Mice and other small critters makes up their "Trail Mix".

Topcat
11-04-2007, 14:56
One sure cure for the mice is to sleep in your tent....

;-)

Dakota Dan
11-04-2007, 15:13
One sure cure for the mice is to sleep in your tent....

;-)


I always do, In fact we're planning to side-trail camp while traversing GSMNP. I guess thats legal. Hope so anyway.

Appalachian Tater
11-04-2007, 15:31
Mice can and sometimes do chew right into tents.

Dakota Dan
11-04-2007, 15:34
Mice can and sometimes do chew right into tents.

Maybe I should reconsider and carry the lid for my pot after all. Or maybe I'll just fix JR some nice Mice-Ka-Bobs. hehe

Dances with Mice
11-04-2007, 15:38
Why does everyone think there's a problem with mice? There's no problem.

John Klein
11-04-2007, 16:55
Why does everyone think there's a problem with mice? There's no problem.
You do realize how ironic that is for you to say, based on your avatar...:)

Uncle Silly
11-04-2007, 19:07
I was on the At in Ga this last July and camped in my HH the entire week. Had a few friends who were in the shelters. They told me the mice ran across their sleeping bags and such. And I remember on Whiteblaze and others reading of the mice. Here is my queston: Are dogs good for the control of mice in the shelters? If you have your dog with you in the shelter or near it do the mice stay away? Perhaps this is impractical? -Cuz on a thru hike others do not want your dog IN the shelter, mice be dammed?

I've found animal activity is drastically reduced when dogs are around. This doesn't mean stopped completely; but the mice will run over you less and stick to walls and ceiling beams.

By the sound of it, there are a lot of folks who don't want your dog in a shelter, ever. I've never met any of them on the trail, or if I did they decided to hold their tongue. Assuming your dog is reasonably well-behaved, especially with regards to others' food, very few thru-hikers will complain about your dog in a shelter.

Be polite and considerate of others. But also stand up for your own rights; no shelter I've seen has a "no dogs" rule posted, and you have as much right to use a shelter as anyone else.

buckowens
11-04-2007, 19:13
I stayed at Muskrat Creek one rainy night this last August with about 13 other folks split between the shelter and tents. There was a really nice Lab with the one group who was well behaved and pleasant. During the night however, he growled and barked quite a bit...

I got up early and bugged out vowing to only stay in a shelter under duress. I like to social aspect, but also like setting up camp at a distance.

Appalachian Tater
11-04-2007, 19:25
I've found animal activity is drastically reduced when dogs are around. This doesn't mean stopped completely; but the mice will run over you less and stick to walls and ceiling beams.

By the sound of it, there are a lot of folks who don't want your dog in a shelter, ever. I've never met any of them on the trail, or if I did they decided to hold their tongue. Assuming your dog is reasonably well-behaved, especially with regards to others' food, very few thru-hikers will complain about your dog in a shelter.

Be polite and considerate of others. But also stand up for your own rights; no shelter I've seen has a "no dogs" rule posted, and you have as much right to use a shelter as anyone else.

You have as much right to use a shelter as anyone else, but your dog does not.

"Take special measures at shelters. Leash your dog in the shelter area, and ask permission of other hikers before allowing your dog in a shelter. Be prepared to "tent out" when a shelter is crowded, and on rainy days."

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.795337/k.9784/Hiking_with_Dogs.htm

Regulations and restrictions

Dogs are NOT ALLOWED in three areas along the Trail:

Baxter State Park, Maine
Bear Mountain State Park Trailside Museum and Wildlife Center, New York—alternate road walk is available
Great Smoky Mountains National Park, Tennessee and North Carolina Leashes ARE REQUIRED on more than 40 percent of the Trail, including:

Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area, Pennsylvania and New Jersey
Maryland (entire state)
Harpers Ferry National Historical Park, West Virginia
Shenandoah National Park, Virginia
Blue Ridge Parkway, Virginia
500+ miles of A.T. land administered by the National Park Service In practice, it can be difficult to tell when you are on NPS-administered A.T. lands. We recommend dogs be leashed at all times, as a matter of courtesy to other hikers and to minimize stress to wildlife.
Trail ethics for dogs and their owners

People hiking with dogs should be aware of the impact of their animals on the Trail environment and their effect on the Trail experience of others.

Do not allow your pet to chase wildlife.
Leash your dog around water sources and in sensitive alpine areas.
Do not allow your dog to stand in springs or other sources of drinking water.
Be mindful of the rights of other hikers not to be bothered by even a friendly dog.
Bury your pet's waste as you would your own.
Take special measures at shelters. Leash your dog in the shelter area, and ask permission of other hikers before allowing your dog in a shelter. Be prepared to "tent out" when a shelter is crowded, and on rainy days.

FatMan
11-04-2007, 19:29
My dog stays away from shelters. He's a real wuss and is afraid of mice.:o

Uncle Silly
11-04-2007, 19:54
You have as much right to use a shelter as anyone else, but your dog does not.

This is your opinion, and you're welcome to it. But I'd be happy if you kept it to yourself.



"Take special measures at shelters. Leash your dog in the shelter area, and ask permission of other hikers before allowing your dog in a shelter. Be prepared to "tent out" when a shelter is crowded, and on rainy days."

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.795337/k.9784/Hiking_with_Dogs.htm


Please note this is not a Trail regulation; this is "common courtesy". It is polite and respectful to ask permission of other hikers, but it is not required. One thing not mentioned is to keep your dog out of the water source for the shelter. Use your best judgement (even if this means ignoring internet naysayers).

There are some areas of the Trail where dogs are required to be on-leash. Some shelters are in these areas; some are not. (For example, there are no shelters within Delaware Water Gap National Recreational Area.) Again, there is no Trail-wide regulation stating that dogs are not allowed in shelters, nor are there Trail-wide regulations stating any restrictions over dogs in shelters.

Appalachian Tater
11-04-2007, 20:48
This is your opinion, and you're welcome to it. But I'd be happy if you kept it to yourself.




Please note this is not a Trail regulation; this is "common courtesy". It is polite and respectful to ask permission of other hikers, but it is not required. One thing not mentioned is to keep your dog out of the water source for the shelter. Use your best judgement (even if this means ignoring internet naysayers).

There are some areas of the Trail where dogs are required to be on-leash. Some shelters are in these areas; some are not. (For example, there are no shelters within Delaware Water Gap National Recreational Area.) Again, there is no Trail-wide regulation stating that dogs are not allowed in shelters, nor are there Trail-wide regulations stating any restrictions over dogs in shelters.

If you even bothered to read the information on the linked page OR in the post I made, you woud see it mentioned keeping your dog out of water.

I guess the rule is that if you want to put your dog in a shelter, you need to be bigger and stronger than anyone who might object.

It's a shame all dog owners can't be thoughtful of others. The ones with a bad attitude and lack of respect ruin it for the good dog owners.

Uncle Silly
11-04-2007, 21:12
heh. Tater, as I've said before, no one's ever objected to my dog's presence at a shelter. The only comments I've received from sheltermates have been positive and welcoming.

Needless to say, objections on a website don't count. Only objections at the shelter do.

Sorry if this seems like a bad attitude and lack of respect. Well, sorry if this seems like a bad attitude. (Of course it's a lack of respect; it's the internet, and you're Tater.) I guarantee it's different in person.

Jim Adams
11-04-2007, 21:45
Unless you are hiking with a seeing eye dog, there is no reason to have a dog on the trail...it is too hard on their pads.

geek

ps. cats-prepare to carry more weight.

Phil1959
11-04-2007, 22:32
Bring Bill The Poney with you! He trapped 11 mice one night and plenty more along the way!

Uncle Silly
11-05-2007, 00:21
Unless you are hiking with a seeing eye dog, there is no reason to have a dog on the trail...it is too hard on their pads.

Might be true for some city slicker dog that never gets to run in the woods. Ain't true for all dogs; ain't true for mine. She lives in the country, roams a couple of mountains on a daily basis, and is a better rock climber than most people here.

Quitcherbitchen. Ain't no reason NOT to have a dog on the trail. Unless you're afraid, for yourself or for the dog.

Jim Adams
11-05-2007, 00:33
Might be true for some city slicker dog that never gets to run in the woods. Ain't true for all dogs; ain't true for mine. She lives in the country, roams a couple of mountains on a daily basis, and is a better rock climber than most people here.

Quitcherbitchen. Ain't no reason NOT to have a dog on the trail. Unless you're afraid, for yourself or for the dog.

Makes no difference whether your dog is from the city or the country, the trail with all of the miles involved is too hard on the dogs pads.

When Mr. Bill Irwin hiked in 1990 with his seeing eye dog Orient, the dog was checked constantly by a vet and at the end of his thru hike the vet reported that the hike had put 7 years of wear on Orient's pads.

Just because your dog likes to run in the country doesn't mean that he wants or likes to thru hike. Leave the dog home, not only are they annoying to most others on the trail, making them hike with you just about constitutes abuse.:mad:

geek

EWS
11-05-2007, 00:37
How some people think a hiking trial should dog free zone is beyond me. Never going to get it, but then again I like dogs.

Jim Adams
11-05-2007, 00:39
How some people think a hiking trial should dog free zone is beyond me. Never going to get it, but then again I like dogs.

I love dogs...I just don't abuse them!

geek

Uncle Silly
11-05-2007, 00:43
Makes no difference whether your dog is from the city or the country, the trail with all of the miles involved is too hard on the dogs pads.

Jim, thank you for your opinion. I'm glad you're one of those who will proudly keep your dog at home for the sake of their pads. You must be a good dog owner.




Just because your dog likes to run in the country doesn't mean that he wants or likes to thru hike. Leave the dog home, not only are they annoying to most others on the trail, making them hike with you just about constitutes abuse.:mad:

I'm not here to debate what my dog likes or doesn't. I'm not here to debate whether you like my dog on the trail or not. I'm here to discuss how dogs help the mouse situation at a shelter.

Jim, your post is against forum rules and is not helpful to furthering this topic (Dogs and Mice). This forum specifically prohibits (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16259) debates over whether dogs should be allowed on the trail:


This forum was created for the purpose of discussing how to responsibly hike the trail with a dog. The purpose of the forum is not to debate the whole topic of dogs on the trail. If your aim is to do so, please go to The general forum or poll forum or something. Otherwise stay away from these threads.

I appreciate your opinion, Jim, but please take it elsewhere.

Jim Adams
11-05-2007, 00:49
Sorry...

geek

Jim Adams
11-05-2007, 01:16
Okay, sticking to the forum, most dogs are not very good at catching mice. Most are of a size that is too large to have the reflexes of a cat and are simply too slow.
Annie was very good at catching mice and it came with years of experience..

geek

Uncle Silly
11-05-2007, 01:24
Are dogs good for the control of mice in the shelters? If you have your dog with you in the shelter or near it do the mice stay away? Perhaps this is impractical?

One thing I found to help was leaving my dog's food bowl out. I normally give Katy slightly more dry food than she'll eat in a single sitting, so there's usually some extra in the bowl. This gives the mice some easy pickings -- so, at least in theory, they're less likely to go after my food bag. It's more work to get to (and then into) my food bag than it is to get stuff down on the ground that doesn't require mouse acrobatics.

The downside of this is obvious: potential for attracting other, larger wildlife. But I think the dog's scent will keep the bears away, as well as most other larger wildlife (raccoons, possum, etc).

EWS
11-05-2007, 01:34
My labs were decent at catching small critters, as they were too large to be extremely agile.

My 30lb Jack Russel/Doberman mix was great at taking down whatever moved, though he thought he wasn't aware of his small size. He could clear out the vermin like it was nothing.

Jim Adams
11-05-2007, 01:40
EWS,
Very true, small wiry dogs are usually the good ones at catching rodents because they have such small mass compared to larger breeds that they are very quick with responses.
My lab was great as a companion but he was just too large to be quick enough to easily catch mice...then again, my cat was horrible at retrieving!!!

geek

Krewzer
11-05-2007, 09:58
I have seen more lost dogs on the AT than dogs that catch mice in shelters.
I have seen a lot more lost dogs on the AT than hikers that catch mice in shelters.
I have seen dogs with lost hikers, hikers with lost dogs, lost dogs with hikers looking for their lost owners, but not a single lost mouse...at shelters.
I have heard, but not seen, mice swiping a few peanuts and M&M's in shelters.
I have seen and heard dogs swipe M&M's, peanuts, bagels, mac'n'cheese, beef sticks, etc., etc., etc. at shelters.
I have heard hikers complain, but mostly joke and tell lots of funny stories about mice running around and over hikers in shelters, but no mention of mouse owners.
I have seen hikers complain, cuss, bitch and generally raise hell about wet muddy dogs running around and over hikers in shelters and the owners of wet muddy dogs who run around and over hikers at and in shelters.
I have never actually seen or heard a dog complain or curse wet, muddy hikers or mice running all around shelters, but have seen and heard them barking and raising all manner of Cain about other dogs and stuff only dogs know about.
I have seen and heard complaints about wet muddy hikers and wet muddy dogs in shelters, but not wet muddy mice.
I have never heard a mouse complain about wet muddy dogs or wet muddy hikers in a shelter.

All in all, of mice, men and dogs; it seems like mice cause the least amount of trouble in shelters.

EWS
11-05-2007, 10:01
I have seen more lost dogs on the AT than dogs that catch mice in shelters.
I have seen a lot more lost dogs on the AT than hikers that catch mice in shelters.
I have seen dogs with lost hikers, hikers with lost dogs, lost dogs with hikers looking for their lost owners, but not a single lost mouse...at shelters.
I have heard, but not seen, mice swiping a few peanuts and M&M's in shelters.
I have seen and heard dogs swipe M&M's, peanuts, bagels, mac'n'cheese, beef sticks, etc., etc., etc. at shelters.
I have heard hikers complain, but mostly joke and tell lots of funny stories about mice running around and over hikers in shelters, but no mention of mouse owners.
I have seen hikers complain, cuss, bitch and generally raise hell about wet muddy dogs running around and over hikers in shelters and the owners of wet muddy dogs who run around and over hikers at and in shelters.
I have never actually seen or heard a dog complain or curse wet, muddy hikers or mice running all around shelters, but have seen and heard them barking and raising all manner of Cain about other dogs and stuff only dogs know about.
I have seen and heard complaints about wet muddy hikers and wet muddy dogs in shelters, but not wet muddy mice.
I have never heard a mouse complain about wet muddy dogs or wet muddy hikers in a shelter.

All in all, of mice, men and dogs; it seems like mice to cause the least amount of trouble in shelters.

Maybe I should start breeding hiking mice.

dessertrat
11-05-2007, 10:20
Makes no difference whether your dog is from the city or the country, the trail with all of the miles involved is too hard on the dogs pads.

When Mr. Bill Irwin hiked in 1990 with his seeing eye dog Orient, the dog was checked constantly by a vet and at the end of his thru hike the vet reported that the hike had put 7 years of wear on Orient's pads.

Just because your dog likes to run in the country doesn't mean that he wants or likes to thru hike. Leave the dog home, not only are they annoying to most others on the trail, making them hike with you just about constitutes abuse.:mad:

geek

I think this is nonsense, sorry. Some dogs don't like to hike, or are not physically suited for it, and should be left home. Others like it, and it is unfortunate to leave them home. It depends upon both the owner and dog-- the pace, the breed, the training and temperament.

I briefly met Uncle Silly and Katie on the trail in Maine, and Katie certainly didn't seem like an abused dog. There are certain dogs that are obviously not a threat, even when off a leash. This can be discerned by the demeanor of the animal. How is it that someone can head out into the woods where there may be rutting moose, hungry bears, and rabid skunks, and yet do not feel qualified to judge whether a dog poses a threat?

dessertrat
11-05-2007, 10:22
One thing I found to help was leaving my dog's food bowl out. I normally give Katy slightly more dry food than she'll eat in a single sitting, so there's usually some extra in the bowl. This gives the mice some easy pickings -- so, at least in theory, they're less likely to go after my food bag. It's more work to get to (and then into) my food bag than it is to get stuff down on the ground that doesn't require mouse acrobatics.

The downside of this is obvious: potential for attracting other, larger wildlife. But I think the dog's scent will keep the bears away, as well as most other larger wildlife (raccoons, possum, etc).

Yeah, but it also encourages mice in the future.

Blissful
11-05-2007, 10:39
One thing I found to help was leaving my dog's food bowl out. I normally give Katy slightly more dry food than she'll eat in a single sitting, so there's usually some extra in the bowl. This gives the mice some easy pickings -- so, at least in theory, they're less likely to go after my food bag. It's more work to get to (and then into) my food bag than it is to get stuff down on the ground that doesn't require mouse acrobatics.

The downside of this is obvious: potential for attracting other, larger wildlife. But I think the dog's scent will keep the bears away, as well as most other larger wildlife (raccoons, possum, etc).

I really disagree with this. Leaving food out for mice only makes more mice. Or other animals. The idea your dog will keep bigger animals away does nothing for an aggressive, hungry animals looking for food and can put your dog and other hikers at risk. Everyone should practice leave no trace, even in shelters and with your dog. Hang your food away from the shelter and the mice stay away. No food, no mice activity, no gear damage. (I saw this happen many times).

Uncle Silly
11-05-2007, 11:14
Yeah, but it also encourages mice in the future.


I really disagree with this. Leaving food out for mice only makes more mice. Or other animals. The idea your dog will keep bigger animals away does nothing for an aggressive, hungry animals looking for food and can put your dog and other hikers at risk. Everyone should practice leave no trace, even in shelters and with your dog. Hang your food away from the shelter and the mice stay away. No food, no mice activity, no gear damage. (I saw this happen many times).

The mice are already there. Hikers staying at the shelter encourage mice; leaving a few food scraps out overnight doesn't automagically generate more. What it DOES do is give the mice a target other than my hanging foodbag (or yours, if we're sheltermates).

This isn't a LNT thing. The food bowl and anything left in it gets packed away and taken with us, so it's not like I'm leaving a food cache for the mice after we're gone.

Only a very few hikers I met over this season's hiking were in the habit of hanging their food away from the shelters. Most (including me) used the mousehangers already in the shelters.

Krewzer
11-05-2007, 11:47
Yeah, but it also encourages mice in the future.

Yes! A little encouragement always helps. It may be 10 Million steps for most AT hikers, but it's more like 10 kuh-zillion for mice. Hang in there.

Who cares about dogs....they've only got to do a paltry billion or so. And who loves being treated like a dog more than a dog.

Dances with Mice
11-05-2007, 11:54
Hikers staying at the shelter encourage mice; Yea, MICE! Go, mice, Go! Beat those dogs!

Mice are integral parts of the shelter construction. Eliminating them may cause the structure to collapse.

dessertrat
11-05-2007, 12:10
[quote=Uncle Silly;442326]The mice are already there. Hikers staying at the shelter encourage mice; leaving a few food scraps out overnight doesn't automagically generate more. What it DOES do is give the mice a target other than my hanging foodbag (or yours, if we're sheltermates).

It doesn't generate more mice overnight, that's true. But generally, the better fed mice are, the higher the rate of survival and reproduction. Hikers staying at the shelter don't encourage mice; I haven't seen a hiker eaten by a mouse.:D But hikers keeping easy food around is the entire reason for mice at shelters. Dog food on the ground is easy food.

Uncle Silly
11-05-2007, 12:14
It doesn't generate more mice overnight, that's true. But generally, the better fed mice are, the higher the rate of survival and reproduction. Hikers staying at the shelter don't encourage mice; I haven't seen a hiker eaten by a mouse.:D But hikers keeping easy food around is the entire reason for mice at shelters. Dog food on the ground is easy food.

Well, next time I share a shelter with you I'll put Katy's food away at night and let the mice chew into YOUR food bag. That's still easy food; it's just a little more effort than dog food on the ground.

dessertrat
11-05-2007, 12:18
Well, next time I share a shelter with you I'll put Katy's food away at night and let the mice chew into YOUR food bag. That's still easy food; it's just a little more effort than dog food on the ground.

I don't stay in shelters. Too many mice.:rolleyes:

Lone Wolf
11-05-2007, 12:20
I don't stay in shelters. Too many mice.:rolleyes:

and people who let their dogs roam freely in and around them

Blissful
11-05-2007, 13:02
I was told (quite emphatically while I was on the trail) the "mice food bag hangars" are really supposed to be for packs. Hikers did use them that way, but many used them as food bag hangars.

I still advocate hanging your food bag when possible, esp if a shelter is notorious for mice. It really helps makes them non active at night.

Uncle Silly
11-05-2007, 14:02
I was told (quite emphatically while I was on the trail) the "mice food bag hangars" are really supposed to be for packs. Hikers did use them that way, but many used them as food bag hangars.

Dunno who told you that or what they were thinking, but that's a bunch of bull malarkey. Think about it. Many (most) shelters have nails or post-type hangers along the walls. Those are for packs, or shirts, or whatever equipment you decide you need to hang up. The entire reason for suspending a hanger from the ceiling is to place the hung object away from the walls, to make it harder for mice to get to it.

Perhaps you noticed an empty, upside-down tin can (or coke bottle or coke can) placed on the line? That little device serves as an obstacle to mice or other vermin attempting to climb down the line to the object you've hung. It's there specifically to help keep mice out of a hung food bag.

If you've bearbagged properly, then all your food and anything that smells like food isn't in your pack, so there's no need for the suspended hanger or the mouse-blocking tin can and you can just use the nails or posts along the shelter wall. Whoever told you those things are for packs is smoking crack, and you clearly aren't using your brain if you believed them. You certainly can USE them for packs, but the features should tell you they were designed for hanging food.

Uncle Silly
11-05-2007, 14:10
I don't stay in shelters. Too many mice.:rolleyes:

A lot of the Maine shelters, especially in the Wilderness, had plastic buckets left at them, which got used as mousetraps. (Pretty simple operation: but 4-5 inches of water in the bottom of the bucket; spread some peanut butter around the interior wall of the bucket, above the waterline but well below the rim; position the bucket near something the mice can use to climb up and get to the rim. The mice will climb up, get onto the rim, and try to reach down to the peanut butter. Ideally, they won't quite reach it, and will fall into the water and drown.)

I read log reports of as many as 20-30 mice per night being caught and drowned in these traps. Seems like this would be a good thing for all shelters to have.

Note that if you are with a dog when one of these traps is being used, you'll need to position the bucket where the dog won't get into it, lest the dog licks off all the bait.

Maybe the night's catch would make a good doggie breakfast? :D

gaga
11-05-2007, 14:15
Uncle Silly is 100% right,and if one reads the ''articles'' here on W.B, there are people whom wrote those articles from experience, not imagination :-?

Jim Adams
11-05-2007, 14:18
Leaving food FOR the mice has everything to do with LNT! You are encouraging mouse reproduction and providing better "mouse" habitat as well as drawing other wildlife into the equation by leaving this food. Tomorrow night when you are at a shelter 20 miles away, the hikers at this shelter are battling mice, raccoons, rats, oppossum, bears, etc, etc, etc,
because the dog "keeping mice away" is now 20 miles away with pads too sore to chase mice at that shelter. It is a never ending vicious cycle.

No, I don't feel threatened on the trail by trail dogs but I do feel sorry for alot of them. Threat is not the problem. Most dog owning hikers refuse to realize that out there, dogs are a nuisince to other hikers.

When I hiked with my cat in 1990, he rode on top of my pack, was never let off leash at a shelter unless everyone at the shelter was in agreement with him roaming free, he buried his dung (w/o a shove I might add!) and ate tons of mice. He slept at my feet INSIDE my sleeping bag at night and was never wet and muddy inside of a shelter. He never begged food or stole food from other hikers. I never had to leave food out to keep mice away from my food bag. He was about the most LNT animal that I could have taken on a hike and yet due to him literally growing up in the woods and on the river, I don't know of any other cat that I could or would have taken on such a trip.
He was neutered so I wasn't increasing cat population along the way. He was just a small kitten, 7 months old when I started the AT but by the time he was 1 year old he had been in 25 states. When I finished that trip he was 14 pounds. He never carried his own pack, I carried a pound of dry cat food in my pack and he ate 3 times a day and I fed him a can of moist cat food everyday that we were in towns. He was quiet, clean, non-intrusive and again, ate tons of mice. He lived a good life and the only time that he intruded on other peoples lives was when he would chase dogs away and that aspect of him really embarassed me. He was not afraid of dogs and would literally charge staight toward them as soon as he saw them. The dogs were very intimidated and several times I had to help the dogs owner retrieve his dog. At those moments, HE WAS A NUISINCE! I always camped away from hikers with dogs because this trait of his ALWAYS embarassed me. It was simply common courtesy to do this.

So, to keep this all on topic with this forum, if you want to protect yourself against mice on the trail, take a cat and put up with all that it involves but a dog will never be as efficient at catchng or keeping mice at bay.

geek

Jim Adams
11-05-2007, 14:23
[quote=Uncle Silly;442430]

Note that if you are with a dog when one of these traps is being used, you'll need to position the bucket where the dog won't get into it, lest the dog licks off all the bait.

...or the bear does!!!!:D

geek

Gaiter
11-05-2007, 14:34
to go back to the subject, while hiking w/ my dog i never had to deal w/ mice, then i hiked w/ someone who was dead set on always hanging food on bearlines, almost never had to deal w/ mice then either. sometimes coco would sleep under shelters and you would hear her do a little growl and circle under the shelter, and the sound of mice feet running away.

hiking w/ a dog to keep mice away is not a reason to hike w/ a dog, only hike w/ a dog that loves hiking.

Uncle Silly
11-05-2007, 14:42
Note that if you are with a dog when one of these traps is being used, you'll need to position the bucket where the dog won't get into it, lest the dog licks off all the bait.

...or the bear does!!!!:D



hmmm, good point. that could be why such buckets/mousetraps aren't more common along the trail.



hiking w/ a dog to keep mice away is not a reason to hike w/ a dog, only hike w/ a dog that loves hiking.

and that's an excellent reminder, thanks!

Adam B
11-05-2007, 14:48
Umm I don't care about shelters because I never use them but you do realize that leaving food where the mice can get it has a very dangerous side effect beyond more mice or other animals. You specifically said that you carry the leftover on in your pack, doing this could cause the spread of various VHFs and other diseases that are present in North America and spread by mice. Any food touched by mice should be discarded if at all possible because of contaminations and should certainly not be fed to your dog afterwards.

As for the pads of a dogs foot being damaged by hiking, all I can say is all of my dogs pads were and are fine. I closely watch them and if the weather or terrain is bad I put booties on him.

gaga
11-05-2007, 15:09
i don't own a dog :( and i love dogs,but my food is mine, so im gonna bring a a spray whit : pit bull pee. that is gonna keep away all ''animals''

Uncle Silly
11-05-2007, 15:13
Umm I don't care about shelters because I never use them but you do realize that leaving food where the mice can get it has a very dangerous side effect beyond more mice or other animals. You specifically said that you carry the leftover on in your pack, doing this could cause the spread of various VHFs and other diseases that are present in North America and spread by mice. Any food touched by mice should be discarded if at all possible because of contaminations and should certainly not be fed to your dog afterwards.

Another good point. I have some awareness of this, but others may not realize the potential risks here.

Mouse-borne illnesses are but one risk among the many things that can befall me or my dog while on a hike. The possible outcomes are fairly obvious: (1) nothing will happen; (2) the dog gets sick and gets over it; (3) the dog gets sick and dies; (4) I get sick and get over it; (5) I get sick and die.

Note that not all mouse-borne diseases are infectious to dogs and humans, and not all that are infectious to one are infectious to the other. The dog isn't alone in this risk; in fact, this is a risk to any hikers that use any shelter that is a home to mice, which you can pretty well assume to be all of them.

Hiking is risky for dogs as well as humans. Frankly, I accept those risks when I go hiking; as a dog owner, it's my job to understand the risks to my dog, and accept or reject them as I feel appropriate.

whitefoot_hp
11-05-2007, 16:43
dogs helping with the mice problem is probably more wishful thinking on behalf of dog owners who are trying to convince themselves that taking their dogs with them really isnt a burden on others.

Krewzer
11-05-2007, 18:42
A lot of the Maine shelters, especially in the Wilderness, had plastic buckets left at them, which got used as mousetraps. (Pretty simple operation: but 4-5 inches of water in the bottom of the bucket; spread some peanut butter around the interior wall of the bucket, above the waterline but well below the rim; position the bucket near something the mice can use to climb up and get to the rim. The mice will climb up, get onto the rim, and try to reach down to the peanut butter. Ideally, they won't quite reach it, and will fall into the water and drown.)
:D

...of course, more mice could have been caught, but the wet, muddy, smelly thru-hikers kept licking the peanut butter off the buckets. And of course there were the expected incidents between wet hikers and muddy dogs over territorial rights and bucket ownership that went beyond the "finders keepers" rule.

BTW. Bears avoid the smell of any thru-hiker like the plague...as do most species here on earth. As far as I know the only animal on earth not put off by the scent of a thru-hiker is another thru-hiker. Odd as that may be.

Appalachian Tater
11-05-2007, 18:43
Mice are wildlife. Dogs (and people) should not be chasing, killing, eating, or otherwise disturbing wildlife. It is against LNT principles. There is no "exception" for mice.

Marta
11-05-2007, 19:06
If you've bearbagged properly, then all your food and anything that smells like food isn't in your pack, so there's no need for the suspended hanger or the mouse-blocking tin can and you can just use the nails or posts along the shelter wall.

I respectfully disagree. Mice aren't all that smart. They will absolutely go through a pack, even if there isn't a scrap of anything edible in it. They are like any other trained animal--they associate human stuff with food, and will gnaw into the packs and bags to look for it, whether or not it smells like food. Hang an empty, closed-up pack or stuff sack from a peg or hook in a mouse-infested shelter and mice will often chew into it.

Of course, they're always looking for nesting material, too, so plastic bags, maps, tissues, and whatnot are attractive to them.

In case we're voting on the issue, I'm all in favor of mouse-suppression, by any means necessary--Jack Russells, cats, traps...

Lone Wolf
11-05-2007, 19:09
Mice are wildlife. Dogs (and people) should not be chasing, killing, eating, or otherwise disturbing wildlife. It is against LNT principles. There is no "exception" for mice.

BS. they're vermin. kill all rodents with extreme prejudice

Dakota Dan
11-05-2007, 19:13
.....

So, to keep this all on topic with this forum, if you want to protect yourself against mice on the trail, take a cat and put up with all that it involves but a dog will never be as efficient at catchng or keeping mice at bay.

geek

Do you have any photos with the cat on the trail? I remember seeing a picture of guy with a cat laying on top of his pack as they went up the trail. Just wondering if you had a site to see the photos. I'd love to take a cat so it could teach JR how to bury his poop and stay well groomed. Dogs have families, Cats have STAFF. hehe

cowboy nichols
11-05-2007, 19:15
I remember reading in a survival article that mouse stew is quite tasty!! I havn't been hungry enough to test this one.

Uncle Silly
11-05-2007, 19:28
Mice are wildlife. Dogs (and people) should not be chasing, killing, eating, or otherwise disturbing wildlife. It is against LNT principles. There is no "exception" for mice.

I forgot, in your world shelters are naturally-occurring elements of the wilderness environs, and are the natural habitat of the North American Shelter Mouse. :rollseyes: I suppose it's on the endangered species list because those "food bags" that grow on the shelter like fruit on trees keep getting picked by the humans visiting the shelter groves?

Don't worry, I don't think the trapping and execution of a few mice who've gotten way too used to human food is really going to upset the natural balance.

dixicritter
11-05-2007, 19:38
Y'all gonna make me shut another one down in this forum? Please remember that this is the dog forum which has rules assigned to it. For those of you who can't abide by the rules, you will force us to ban you from this forum. This will be the last warning before the bannings start.

Marta
11-05-2007, 21:42
I must have been out of the room when this subject was covered:

Could you please tell me what the dog forum rules are?
Or where I could go to find them?

dixicritter
11-05-2007, 21:44
I must have been out of the room when this subject was covered:

Could you please tell me what the dog forum rules are?
Or where I could go to find them?

No problem. They can be found here... http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16259

Marta
11-05-2007, 21:46
Thank you!

dixicritter
11-05-2007, 21:51
Thank you!

Most welcome :)

SunnyWalker
11-10-2007, 00:16
I am starting to get an accurte picture here, as I sort out the off subject comments. The topic is not whether you like dogs on the AT or not, ok? -SunnyWalker

EWS
11-10-2007, 00:19
It's whether or not you like mice.

SunnyWalker
11-24-2007, 22:59
I am sorry, I can't remember who wrote it but someone put a post up here and they (female hiker) talked about how her dog slept under the shelter each night. Was very well behaved and all. And while the dog was there, no mice ran around at night!!!!!! :-) Me, I'm liking the idea of having a dog along. -SunnyWalker

Flush2wice
11-25-2007, 00:03
That's great! Just don't let it in the shelter. Most people prefer mice over dogs.

Dakota Dan
11-25-2007, 15:03
I like for dogs to be at shelters, I can sleep better at my tent site.

SunnyWalker
12-07-2007, 00:02
Weaaaaaaaallllllllllllll . . . . ok, jury has done its work, evidence is in, all comments have been read and analyzed. Verdict: dogs are really neat and many people love them including me. However, on the trail the real goal of reducing mice can be accomplished without a dog and all the accompanying responsibilities to care for it. And that is be carefully bear bagging your food bag. That is my decision for me. So If I see you on the AT I won't have a doggie with me, but a good bear bag :-). Thanks everyone. Happy trails to you. -SunnyWalker