View Full Version : Vaccum Bags
I know one of the reasons you can keep canned goods for a real long time is they are vaccumed sealed. If you get one of those vaccum bag sealers, could you do the same with food on a backpacking trip? How long would it be good for unrefrigerated? Anyone try this method before or is "freezer bag" cooking the way to go if you are looking for this type of food prep?
I use a dehydrator and a vacuum sealer, but still do it freezer bag style... I make a casserole or stew etc, eat my dinner off of that, then dehydrate the rest. Once dry, I put it into the vacuum bags and store til heading out for a hike...
generoll
11-09-2007, 11:08
I think a big part of the weight with canned goods is the water. If you are dehydrating, then something like that would make good sense.
How pricey are the dehydrators? If you aren't planning a major hike and only go for a few weekend hikes a year would buying the freeze dried stuff from the outfitter be more cost effective? I would think a dehydrator would be expensive but I haven't looked a prices either.
I understand there are good, inexpensive models at WalMart... I use mine for everything, including my garden veggies, so I went with a super-duper model....
How pricey are the dehydrators? If you aren't planning a major hike and only go for a few weekend hikes a year would buying the freeze dried stuff from the outfitter be more cost effective? I would think a dehydrator would be expensive but I haven't looked a prices either.
Cost wise, if you won't be using it a lot...it is better usually to buy from companies. Harmonyhousefoods.com is a great company.
And you can dry stuff in your oven as well.
Expect to pay $50-75 for a decent entry level dehydrator by Nesco.
I know one of the reasons you can keep canned goods for a real long time is they are vaccumed sealed. If you get one of those vaccum bag sealers, could you do the same with food on a backpacking trip? How long would it be good for unrefrigerated? Anyone try this method before or is "freezer bag" cooking the way to go if you are looking for this type of food prep?
You only want to do this with dry foods, wet foods, while you can seal them to store in the frig or freezer, you don't want to carry those with you - food poisoning is a reality.
Vac sealing dried foods though is a good idea, especially if you are making meals months in advance though. It will keep your dried items at top freshness, and yes, the vac bags work well for doing FBC meals. They are strong bags.
Alligator
11-09-2007, 23:02
Cost wise, if you won't be using it a lot...it is better usually to buy from companies. Harmonyhousefoods.com is a great company.
And you can dry stuff in your oven as well.
Expect to pay $50-75 for a decent entry level dehydrator by Nesco.I don't agree with that, particularly if you are making jerky or dinners. I get about 5 dinners from a batch of food that costs at most $10 (if that). Make about 5 batches of dinners and the dehydrator is paid for.
You do get more shelf time by vacuum sealing.
I don't agree with that, particularly if you are making jerky or dinners. I get about 5 dinners from a batch of food that costs at most $10 (if that). Make about 5 batches of dinners and the dehydrator is paid for.
You do get more shelf time by vacuum sealing.
Alligator, my comment was on components, not meals ;) That is: is it cheaper to dry your own vegetables? Yes, over time, if you do a lot of it. But no if you only dry one or two batches a year and have to buy the dehydrator. If all you need is a wide variety of vegetables, cooked dried beans, etc but you don't need a lot of each item, buying commercially dried or freeze dried can be cost effective.
As for commercial meals? Ewwww. That I'll NEVER recomend! You can nearly always make meals for a lot less at home, even with commercially bought dried items added in. :)
It also depends what kind of backcountry cook a person hopes to be as well:
The easy-does-it?
The semi-gourmet?
The gourmet?
The do it all at home?
For some a dehydrator is a blessing, they can dry up whole meals, dry seperate items, etc.
For others....if all you do is use it once and tuck it away, it is a loss money wise. My advice is think about wether or not you will really get into it, and if the answer is yes, go get one and have fun! :banana
......heck, I bought myself a new dehydrator today :D I decided I "deserved" it. Heh!
Alligator
11-10-2007, 02:58
Actually Sarbar, your comment did not specify "components". You responded to Ashman's post on buying freeze-dried foods from the outfiitter. It's OK if you weren't clear, glad you could clarify.
I will say it again, you can recoup your investment quite easily though with just a limited number of uses. It doesn't take much to get your investment back. Fill up a $50-$60 dehydrator about 5 times with average cost food and you'll be about even. Make about 25 meals, or the equivalent amount of components, and you'll be saving money over buying commercial. If your not going to eat 25 dehydrated meals in the course of your backpacking career, then don't buy one.
You don't have to use it a lot, just a small number of times somewhat wisely.
Fiddleback
11-10-2007, 12:24
Actually Sarbar, your comment did not specify "components". You responded to Ashman's post on buying freeze-dried foods from the outfiitter. It's OK if you weren't clear, glad you could clarify.
I will say it again, you can recoup your investment quite easily though with just a limited number of uses. It doesn't take much to get your investment back. Fill up a $50-$60 dehydrator about 5 times with average cost food and you'll be about even. Make about 25 meals, or the equivalent amount of components, and you'll be saving money over buying commercial. If your not going to eat 25 dehydrated meals in the course of your backpacking career, then don't buy one.
You don't have to use it a lot, just a small number of times somewhat wisely.
There's no question that dehydrating your own meals is much less expensive than commercial freeze dried. Plus, home prepared meals are usually better tasting and probably healthier and more nutritious -- safer too, if you have dietary concerns/restrictions. I know mine are, YMMV.:D
When it comes to hot trail meals, I'm pretty much a FBC guy. And it's usually just me and my season is short ('cause I'm not yet up to solo hammocking in the wintertime Northern Rockies). Those considerations lead me to two other cost (and time) saving approaches; I seldom prepare meals just for the trail and I don't use a dehydrator.
Most of my trail dinners are dehydrated portions reserved from the dinner table; mac&cheese, rice dishes, spagetti, thick soups and chile, etc., -- all work well. These dishes are inexpensive to begin with and the marginal cost of the additional ingredients (if any -- they might be 'left overs') for later dehydration are relatively insignificant. There's a fair amount of time savings with this approach as well -- any additional time for the added trail meal quantities just isn't significant.
A second approach that works for me is use of the kitchen's oven. I tried a cheapy dehydrator once but I didn't care for it (especially the clean-up) and I've used nothing but the oven and cookie sheets since. While I concede that dehydrators allow finer control of the process which may result in a better product, I'm not convinced the the quality difference is significant when the product is intended for FBC. And cookie sheets are easy and quick to work with...clean-up is even faster. There is a major electric consumption difference but it takes many, many uses before savings are realized by using a dehydrator. There are other issues with oven use such as the heat added to the kitchen (good? bad?) and that leads to my conclusion...
Like so many other things in backpacking, meal dehydrating methods benefit from an individual approach based upon the individual's backpacking habits and needs. There's no one best approach. But IMO, it's all good when dehydrating your own.:)
FB
Two points that I don't think were mentioned (may have missed em):
By vacuum packing you get good shelf life. This can be prolonged substantially longer by then freezing the vacuum packs, extending the shelf life to years. This is a good option if you are preparing for a long-distance hike or want to keep a supply for quick get aways.
Second, the vacuum seal bags that I use are also designed for boil-in-bag preparation. This may relieve any fears of chemical contamination by the freezer bags when used with boiling water (I know this is very controversial, but what I have read is that most freezer bags are not reccommended for use at boiling temps due to lack of data on the safety issues) If, however, the vacuum bag is designed and tested for boil-in-bag prep, this shouldn't be an issue.
Alligator
11-10-2007, 14:12
I agree FB, dehydrating in your oven will very likely save you money even faster as compared to buying from a store as compared to using a dehydrator and buying from a store.
Generally most of my meals are something I already know how to make and sometimes I too will toss the leftovers in. However, one ought to keep in mind that chunkier foods don't rehydrate as well, so prep your dinner accordingly. But if you do it this way, you are watching over a batch that has fewer meals so you may not be maximizing your time. In this instance, perhaps the best approach is to double the meal.
You mentioned cleanup but really if you soak the trays and use a brush it really doesn't take much more effort. Soaking and a water sprayer are key.
I prefer having a fan and a well regulated temperature to insure that my food is consistent and will be the best it can be, so I prefer a better tool than the oven. I don't want to have to worry about the temperature fluctuations. Nothing wrong with trying the oven first though, it would probably take a bit of time to realize the electric savings plus startup cost of the dehydrator.
Now an item that I own and don't expect much cost savings is the vacuum sealer.
While I own two dehydrators, I will add that if you have a convenction oven (and I do) it works great at drying food.
The oven will work well for those who don't wnat to or cannot afford to buy a dehydrator - or for instance, just want to dry up a batch of lentils or pasta but not much else :)
As for the food vac? I use it all the time, but more for home food than trail food :) It is great if you have the canisters as well. Keeps rice, flour and grains fresh!
Javasanctum
11-10-2007, 23:32
Try making your own dehydrator for about $10! http://www.alpharubicon.com/prepinfo/dehydratorstryder.htm or try http://www.backpacking.net/makegear/food-dehydrator/index.html
Alligator
11-11-2007, 02:13
...
As for the food vac? I use it all the time, but more for home food than trail food :) It is great if you have the canisters as well. Keeps rice, flour and grains fresh!Good luck on getting a return on your investment in the food vac and canisters if you are using it for rice, flour, and grains:) .
Good luck on getting a return on your investment in the food vac and canisters if you are using it for rice, flour, and grains:) .
The canisters are a bonus if one lays out the $$ for the vac system ;) The food vac itself takes nearly forever to pay off in cost savings for the average backpacker.
Alligator
11-11-2007, 14:52
The canisters are a bonus if one lays out the $$ for the vac system ;) The food vac itself takes nearly forever to pay off in cost savings for the average backpacker.Any backpacker buying the system to just use it for backpacking should consider the use really. If the interest is just to use it for backpacking food, the freezer with freezer bags is just as good an alternative.
And the uses for the homemaker aren't all they're cracked up to be either. For instance, storing cheap cereals in the containers is pretty much a waste of time. I mean really, keeping rice fresh? What a marketing success there, what did people do beforehand:rolleyes: . My "free" container sits on the shelf most of the time, it's so dang small as to be useless except for perhaps the most expensive herbs:cool: . Not to say the containers are totally useless, given the right size, but I caution anyone considering buying them to seriously give thought to their actual use vs. the price. The trick to getting the most out of a vac system is to use it to preserve items that when they spoil they cost you money. Forget about rice and flour here. (When does rice spoil anyway:confused: ). Something like coffee is a reasonable example, where buying more can reduce the price significantly.
The best way to make your money back though is to get one for Christmas like I did:D . HoHoHo.
mkmangold
11-11-2007, 15:05
Or try Alton Brown's cheap dehydrator on FoodNetwork.com.
Way back in college, we had a prof who freeze-dried his foods. Is that still an option or just a university thing?
And the uses for the homemaker aren't all they're cracked up to be either. For instance, storing cheap cereals in the containers is pretty much a waste of time. I mean really, keeping rice fresh? What a marketing success there, what did people do beforehand:rolleyes: . My "free" container sits on the shelf most of the time, it's so dang small as to be useless except for perhaps the most expensive herbs:cool: . Not to say the containers are totally useless, given the right size, but I caution anyone considering buying them to seriously give thought to their actual use vs. the price. The trick to getting the most out of a vac system is to use it to preserve items that when they spoil they cost you money. Forget about rice and flour here. (When does rice spoil anyway:confused: ). Something like coffee is a reasonable example, where buying more can reduce the price significantly.
Ah, see I lucked into a Target couple years ago that was blowing out their canisters. I got them for about 1/4 of the normal price. I have around 15 canisters, of many sizes. From small to jumbo.
And yes, it keeps whole wheat flour and brown rice from going stale and or rancid (they both contain oils that break down fast). Rancid smelling rice is obvious ;) I buy a lot of bulk for both home and trail use so they work great.
But would I go out and buy them just because I didn't have them? Probably not.
Of course I also have the meat tenderizer pan by them, it is 8"x8" or so and has a lid. I store homemade cookies in it. Keeps them fresh, and makes a good cookie jar. And keeps the kid out. He knows if he opens it, I'll know. Hehheh!!
Alligator
11-11-2007, 21:37
A vacuum canister is hardly needed for brown rice or wheat flour. Everybody knows they keep for many months in the fridge/freezer:) . Eventually they'll spoil. Honestly, starting on the cheap end of savings in bulk foods is a poor strategy to maximize gains. Filling your containers with 20+ lbs of flour or rice is space intensive. This for a savings of a couple of pennies per pound, which one might easily achieve by simply putting the money in the bank:-?.
The containers can be convenient and useful but aren't necessarily as good as they're purported to be in an economic sense.
A vacuum canister is hardly needed for brown rice or wheat flour. Everybody knows they keep for many months in the fridge/freezer:) . Eventually they'll spoil. Honestly, starting on the cheap end of savings in bulk foods is a poor strategy to maximize gains. Filling your containers with 20+ lbs of flour or rice is space intensive. This for a savings of a couple of pennies per pound, which one might easily achieve by simply putting the money in the bank:-?.
The containers can be convenient and useful but aren't necessarily as good as they're purported to be in an economic sense.
As I noted, I don't advocate buying the canisters unless you like them or get a good buy. As for the freezer? No thanks. I live in an area that loses power often (I live in the foothills of Mt. Rainier and the Cascade Mts.) We don't own a freezer. I know better than to chance the gods with perishable foods...and it would be dumb to just store flour in a freezer and nothing else. The cost of the power would buy me tons of canisters. The reason why I CHOOSE to use those canisters is for the flour and grains that I am using in my house. That isn't storage, that is active use. But...it can take me awhile to go through 5 lbs of brown rice!
This would be a HYOH thing. I like them. You don't have to like them, but I'd rather not be knocked over my use of them. For me, the food vac system has been a great investment over the past 4 years.
Alligator
11-11-2007, 23:33
As I noted, I don't advocate buying the canisters unless you like them or get a good buy. As for the freezer? No thanks. I live in an area that loses power often (I live in the foothills of Mt. Rainier and the Cascade Mts.) We don't own a freezer. I know better than to chance the gods with perishable foods...and it would be dumb to just store flour in a freezer and nothing else. The cost of the power would buy me tons of canisters. The reason why I CHOOSE to use those canisters is for the flour and grains that I am using in my house. That isn't storage, that is active use. But...it can take me awhile to go through 5 lbs of brown rice!
This would be a HYOH thing. I like them. You don't have to like them, but I'd rather not be knocked over my use of them. For me, the food vac system has been a great investment over the past 4 years.Hey no problem, if you think your flour's going to go bad from being unrefrigerated for a day that's your business. But you haven't been "knocked" personally. You offered up your personal approach to the vac sealer as an example and I commented on that strategy. If you are going to get in a huff perhaps you should stay out of the kitchen.
I use the cannisters for coffee, breakfast cereal, fresh berries, and other fresh veggies out of the garden. I am single, so it takes me a while to get through a full pound of coffee, or a large, economical size box of cereal, so I enjoy the added freshness. As for the berries, have you priced fresh raspberries in the store, I pick my own and can keep them fresh for several weeks without having to add sugar and freezing them. Doesn't take too long at $3 a pint to pay for a set of cannisters.
They also make attachments that allow you to use everyday mason jars and lids to vacuum seal the contents. I haven't bought one of these attachments yet, so don't know how they work, but it's on my list of things to try. The produce that I grow and freeze stays much fresher tasting for longer in the freezer if I vacuum seal the bags - have not had any freezer burn in the three years I've been using it.
In case you haven't figured it out yet, I like my vacuum sealer, and believe it has been economical for me. YMMV.
Alligator
11-12-2007, 00:31
Raspberries are pricey items that are certainly better for a debate:banana . Now you can't quite pat yourself on the back for those unless you were willing to buy them in the first place. That is, if you didn't have the canisters and your raspberries went bad, would you have run out and bought more:-? . It's no matter really, just something to think about. The argument still works by buying a pint at the grocery vs. buying a flat cheaper elsewhere. The canisters can work for smaller expensive products. I do like raspberries you may have won me over with that one. I could at least put a container on my Christmas list.
Coffee I mentioned, but cereal? You don't think you'd get by with a non-vac container? I always buy the biggest box I can, eat it myself, and never have freshness problems. Come to think of it though I do eat large bowls of cereal.
Methinks the reptile just wants to argue fer the sake of arguing.:rolleyes:
Alligator
11-12-2007, 03:08
Obviously I have a little time on my hands. As long as no one mentions storing pasta (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_590462_imageset_01%3F%24main-Medium%24&imgrefurl=http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0048541590462a.shtml&h=220&w=380&sz=14&hl=en&start=32&um=1&tbnid=EFsk2yA5jT6YhM:&tbnh=71&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfood%2Bsaver%2Bcanisters%26start%3D20 %26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa% 3DN) :datzin their system I ought to be done here .
To get back to topic. How much longer long would a serving of say, chilie last if it were vaccum sealed, but not dehydrated? AS opposed to just being stored in a zip lock?
To get back to topic. How much longer long would a serving of say, chilie last if it were vaccum sealed, but not dehydrated? AS opposed to just being stored in a zip lock?
Sealing it and storing in the frig would keep it fresher than say a bowl of chili stored in the frig...but don't quote me on how many days though ;) I'd have to find the old manual!
I had asked this question on an earlier thread, but I will ask again, How do the manufactureres keep chicken and tuna in a pouch from spoiling. I know they take the air out of the bag, do they soak in preservatives? Is there a practical way to make your own chicken in a pouch? I'm not talking about keeping it a long time? 2-3 days would suffice.
Dances with Mice
11-12-2007, 17:02
I had asked this question on an earlier thread, but I will ask again, How do the manufactureres keep chicken and tuna in a pouch from spoiling. I know they take the air out of the bag, do they soak in preservatives? Is there a practical way to make your own chicken in a pouch? I'm not talking about keeping it a long time? 2-3 days would suffice.They use FOIL pouches which can be sterilized by steam or pressure cooking at high temperatures.
Odd Man Out
11-12-2007, 17:23
The original post stated that vacuum sealing preserves canned goods. I do not think this is so. Most canned goods are not vacuum sealed. They are preserved by heat treatment, followed by a tight seal to keep out microbes that would cause spoilage. To prevent spoilage you either need to kill and keep out microbes (canning), or provide an environment where microbes won't grow much (salting, drying, freezing, pickling, etc). Oxygen will cause foods to go bad due to oxidation reactions (the taste of stale grains or rancid oils). Vacuum sealling can slow this process, and my retard some microbe growth. However, I wouldn't vacuum packa can of spaghetti and expect it to be safe to eat after a few days on the trail. Some other preservation method (drying) would also be necessary.
so bottom line, there is no handy way to create your own meat in a pouch. Thanks for the input
Alligator
11-12-2007, 17:42
so bottom line, there is no handy way to create your own meat in a pouch. Thanks for the inputYou might be able to get something like 48 hours out of freezing and vacuum sealing.
Precooking and vacuum sealing might give a few days. Maybe precook, vacuum seal, and freeze. I don't know how that would taste? Somewhat better than shoe leather?
These are guesses for outside of summer BTW.
I don't think you can get close at all to a foil pouch though.
Christopher Robin
11-12-2007, 18:42
Dehyrating food & useing freezer bags are the best meels going backpacking week-eng & longer. I take one day & complete all I need for 3 mth. A good book or 2 are;Trail Food & freezer Bag, from (Amazon .com) 1/2 price or less.
so bottom line, there is no handy way to create your own meat in a pouch. Thanks for the input
Yes, the manafacturers have the abilty to "can" the pouches (and they can be either plastic or foil bags in this day and age.) It is more than removing air, the food has to be treated with heat (and pressure). This is in a way how they make MRE meals. Without the "canning" part your food would be spoiled within the day.
take-a-knee
11-12-2007, 22:40
Yes, the manafacturers have the abilty to "can" the pouches (and they can be either plastic or foil bags in this day and age.) It is more than removing air, the food has to be treated with heat (and pressure). This is in a way how they make MRE meals. Without the "canning" part your food would be spoiled within the day.
It might not be spoiled within a day if you get all the air out, but if you get all the air out you'll be sucking juice into the resevior on the vacuum unit. The problem with this is once you've removed all the air, you have created the perfect environment for anaerobic bacteria to thrive, Clostridium botulinum comes to mind, this bacteria produces an exotoxin that is the deadliest known substance on planet earth.
As Sabar said, you have to kill the pathogenic microbes present via heat or radiation.
Thanks for the info, I guess the vaccum route seems like it is much more work, cost hassle and potential danger, than just the dehydrator/freezer bag route, good to know.
take-a-knee
11-13-2007, 10:22
Thanks for the info, I guess the vaccum route seems like it is much more work, cost hassle and potential danger, than just the dehydrator/freezer bag route, good to know.
I still think the vacuum packer is worth having. Northwoods canoeist Cliff Jacobsen dehydrates his own hamburger and then vacuum packs it. He says it will keep several weeks in a ziploc and up to a year in a vacuum bag. We buy salmon on sale and vacuum pack it, we can't tell it from fresh.