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View Full Version : Old AT in the Smokies - Off trail adventure



SGT Rock
11-19-2007, 09:03
I just got back last night from the expedition to find the old AT from Deals Gap to Parsons Bald. With me were HikerHead and Jim Lumpkin. Jim is the Benton MacKaye Trail maintenance director for the Smoky Mountains National Park section.

This was an off trail project I started just to see if the old trail was around there for my own adventure and to possibly suggest a re-location to get the BMT off a 3.5 mile road walk down US129/NC28 where it is fairly dangerous to walk especially during late Spring, Summer, and early Fall when the motorcyclists come out to race "The Tail of the Dragon". It turned into a serious reconnaissance for a re-location assessment using old roads and trails in the Smokies.

What we found is there are still 1.4 miles of old road that can be easily re-claimed and turned back into trail. The old quad maps of that area show a road from campsite 95 to Dalton Gap which is still there but needs some clearing. A couple of guys with cutting tools could open it in a day of work -EASY.

The next section where it becomes old AT in Dalton gap was a little trickier. We walked about 0.7 miles on old AT that was easy to find up to Dalton Ridge. With expectations it was going to be that easy for the rest of the trip we took a break in high spirits. Unfortunately our spirits were soon dashed as we found the old AT when down into an area where multiple streams met and the old trail was basically gone from erosion and growth of laurel, rhododendrons, greenbrier, and other plants. At the end of the day we had walked around in circles for hours and not found any more trail sign. We decided to turn around late in the day and didn't make it back to camp until after dark. We looked like we had been wrestling bobcats. Luckily HikerHead had brought real bacon to add to dinner.

The second day we decided that if the trail were to be re-opened it would need a re-route to somewhere that made sense. So we went back out to Dalton Gap and climbed the hill up to Slow Knob which is a 1100' elevation gain in about 0.1 mile - something that would need switchbacks to make it hikeable. Then we proceeded to ridge walk on an easy route until we found the old AT again on the ridge. If this were re-opened with this relocation, about 1.8 miles of old AT would be re-routed to keep it up out of the wetlands and move it to ridge. We then followed the old AT (loosing the trail for a short time and having another cross country adventure) until we reached power lines for the TVA. After a rough crossing of first growth briers and such under the power lines - it was an easy walk down to the road and US129.

Now Jim has a plot for a possible re-location to work with the GSMNP folks so we can take the BMT off that dangerous road. It would probably take a few guys a long weekend of hard work to do some of the labor required, but I expect the Park Service will probably give it some consideration since opening a little trail (about 4.3 miles total) is probably more desirable than having a hiker killed by a motorcycle or car on the Dragon.

We never did do the old AT from Dalton Gap to Parsons bald - that is something I'll have to do some other time. Big thanks to HikerHead for helping out - and especially for the bacon.

generoll
11-19-2007, 09:21
give me enough advance warning and I can probably wrangle a week to participate in something like this. I suspect that the real challenge will be getting the necessary permits.

ed bell
11-19-2007, 09:29
That's pretty cool to be able to scout out a re-location for the BMT. Keep us posted on any plans to make it happen. I'd be happy to make the trip to give a hand. With enough notice, I could probably make a long weekend out of it.:sun

SGT Rock
11-19-2007, 09:29
give me enough advance warning and I can probably wrangle a week to participate in something like this. I suspect that the real challenge will be getting the necessary permits.
Yes I think you are right. The advantage we have is Jim has been a trail maintainer on Smoky Mountain trail maintenance crews (the Park Service crews, not the hiking club crews) and has worked for the guy that is the GSMNP "Back-country Expert". He has experience with the Park service with re-location of trails and trail maintenance - so he has experience on how to approach this subject with them.

There was actually a recon done a while back, but whoever was with the BMT that did it declared the old AT unrecoverable after only a short look. We spent days looking at it and have a good idea exactly how to do it. I hope (although hope is not a method of success) that during the next year we can show George (the park service guy) where we want to go and how we want to do it so it goes through that end more easily. I expect nothing will happen with this until probably next Fall at the earliest. When it does happen though - I plan to put out a call for volunteers. If I can get about 5 good guys willing to work this project - I expect we can have it completed and usable in about 3 days. I hope that we can get twice that though and make it a good experience for the "Easy Company Trail Crew" with a camp minder making chow and base camps for ease of work up in the back country.

Two Speed
11-19-2007, 09:31
'Kay, this is a "me too" post. That joker that runs Easy Company works ya like a dog but it's a good time anyway. ;)

SGT Rock
11-19-2007, 09:36
That's pretty cool to be able to scout out a re-location for the BMT. Keep us posted on any plans to make it happen. I'd be happy to make the trip to give a hand. With enough notice, I could probably make a long weekend out of it.:sun


'Kay, this is a "me too" post. That joker that runs Easy Company works ya like a dog but it's a good time anyway. ;)
Oh you guys have an early invite. I figure with Two Speed, Ed Bell, Generoll, Jim, HikerHead (maybe) my oldest boy, myself, and a couple of others we can do this up right. Hopefully I could convince my wife and a couple of others to be camp minders for us and we could come back to hot food every night pack up from Twentymile Ranger station. What would be really good is if we could find a horse camper type since there is horse trail up to campsite 95 who would be willing to help us pack in tools and supplies.

generoll
11-19-2007, 09:38
One minor hurdle I would see is having a self checkin station like currently exists at Twenty Mile. How is that handled for SOBOs at Davenport Gap?

MOWGLI
11-19-2007, 09:43
So we went back out to Dalton Gap and climbed the hill up to Slow Knob which is a 1100' elevation gain in about 0.1 mile...


Dang! That'd make Mahoosuc Arm look like the C&O Canal. :D I think you wanted the decimal point one place to the right.

On a serious note, I wish you well with this very worthy project.

generoll
11-19-2007, 09:43
Not to pick at too many nits, but I really do need advanced notice for actual dates. At my work it's like a feeding frenzy when the new vacation schedule comes out. I'm on call 50%+ of the weekends every year. I really do need a specific date to be sure I have the time. I have a week in October right now, so if that's when you're thinking let me know.

SGT Rock
11-19-2007, 09:47
One minor hurdle I would see is having a self checkin station like currently exists at Twenty Mile. How is that handled for SOBOs at Davenport Gap?That is something we will have to work - but I think we can do it. Currently there is one at 20 mile.


Dang! That'd make Mahoosuc Arm look like the C&O Canal. :D I think you wanted the decimal point one place to the right.

On a serious note, I wish you well with this very worthy project.
Thanks. I planned adding a series of switchbacks to get up there. That climb would be one of the hardest parts of this re-location, a lot of the other places is either brush cutting an easy ridge walk or clearing old trail that is recoverable.


Not to pick at too many nits, but I really do need advanced notice for actual dates. At my work it's like a feeding frenzy when the new vacation schedule comes out. I'm on call 50%+ of the weekends every year. I really do need a specific date to be sure I have the time. I have a week in October right now, so if that's when you're thinking let me know.
I will definitely be working on this. I hope to enlist the help of local folks, like Frolicking Dinosaurs to help me organize the schedule and logistics when and if this does get approved.

Bearpaw
11-19-2007, 13:09
Sgt. Rock,

Please keep us informed. Right now, I plan to be relocated to either Maryville or Townsend by the end of June. I've logged about 400 hours of trail-building with the Cumberland Trail Conference since 2000, so I have plenty of experience as well, and I've hiked the original 93 miles of the BMT already. I intend to thru-hike south this spring. And I'd enjoy the chance to help make the BMT better.

Bearpaw

SGT Rock
11-19-2007, 13:22
Good to have you around the area. We live closer to Walland than to Maryville.

Bearpaw
11-19-2007, 13:35
I'll send you a PM to ask for more non-trail stuff. I'm just looking forward to being where I can work on both the Cumberland Trail AND the AT/BMT corridor.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-19-2007, 14:12
...... Hopefully I could convince my wife and a couple of others to be camp minders for us and we could come back to hot food every night pack up from Twentymile Ranger station. What would be really good is if we could find a horse camper type since there is horse trail up to campsite 95 who would be willing to help us pack in tools and supplies.Are you thinking about a Dino helping Dixie :D

I know some horse people in our area - I'll see what I can do about getting someone to help - the problem will be bring horse trailers across the Dragon -- it would be better if someone knows some horse campers from the NC side.

SGT Rock
11-19-2007, 14:19
Are you thinking about a Dino helping Dixie :D

I know some horse people in our area - I'll see what I can do about getting someone to help - the problem will be bring horse trailers across the Dragon -- it would be better if someone knows some horse campers from the NC side.
I did think of you. Dixie doesn't have experience feeding a hungry mob like you do with the Scouts. I was hoping you would hopefully know someone in the area that knows or has horses that could help if we get this thing off the ground.

Hikerhead
11-19-2007, 21:24
That was a good time Rock beating around in the woods with you and Jim. I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out with the GSMNP people and wishing for some clear minds to look at what is placed on the table. I'll practice up on my harmonica for the next time. Oh, I found the Ryans Steak house across from the Cracker Barrel in Marysville, they had to raise their prices a little today. :)

Pedaling Fool
11-19-2007, 21:32
Count me in! I'd love to see other trails in this section, as well as help in blazing new ones.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-19-2007, 21:51
Rock, I checked with the people I know -- they said taking horses over the Dragon in trailers was a really bad idea - that the horse would get bruised up :eek: They made a good suggestion - check with an equestrian club in the closest city and see if they know someone who would like to help. Robbinsville is probably the closest city

Tipi Walter
11-19-2007, 22:59
Hey Sgt Rock, I thought the old AT crossing at Deals Gap goes across 129 into what now seems like private land and not Park land. There is an old logging road with yellow keep out signs, etc, so maybe the old AT never crossed here?

BTW, I made it up to Beech Gap and the Bob that Tuesday morning(Nov 13)for a 7 day backpacking trip and I had hoped to run into you up thar on the high ground. Missed ye but I think I saw you driving out on the Skyway on my drive in.

SGT Rock
11-20-2007, 07:17
Well we came out about 0.2 miles up that private road. But it could be re-routed down the other site of that property line - the entire north side of that private road is park and the far side of 129 is park.

I say re-route, but really, the old AT sort of disappeared under those power lines and we just walked down a draw for that last 0.1 miles to the road because we could see it. I'm not sure exactly what route the AT took for that last 0.1-0.3 miles because it was gone as best as I could tell. IMO you could route it anywhere you want in that section and probably be "right".

Smile
11-20-2007, 10:27
Dino and SGT, I'll put out a call on our horse list for NC and see what we can do for you. Rubberbandman is originally from Qualla, and we have many friends in that area. Will get back to you asap.

Could you PM me the best access point for parking and staging horses to the area you request?

Sounds like this hike was great adventure for all. :)

SGT Rock
11-20-2007, 10:41
I could PM you with that. But I can also list it here too since I have to go in and clean out about 500 PMs from my box LOL.

Twentymile Ranger station is the best place for foot access and horse access at this point. It is horse trail for 2.5 miles from there up to Campsite 95 which is also a horse camp site. I belive we can use that as the initial base camp and offload site for horses if we can work that out. The route past 95 is old road, but I don't think it will support horses at this point do to some erroded side hill. Where I would like to establish a work camp is up around Dalton Gap, or maybe down the old AT a piece to Dalton Ridge where there is a large flat area and water is within 0.2 miles.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-20-2007, 12:02
Does anyone know when the original crossing at 129 was last used? I know some Dinos that are way older than me that may remember where it crossed and the route it took....

Smile, thank you for finding out about the horses on the NC side. My friends all said that 311 tight curves in 11 miles - a pretty apt description of the section of Hwy 129 known as the Dragon - was not an acceptable road for hauling horses. They also worried that the 'crotch rockets' darting around the slow-moving trailer would spook the horses. The road is mostly used for performance motor cycles and touring cars to pleasure ride, but it also cuts off about 50 to 60 miles of driving for us to get to Twentymile ranger station from the Maryville TN area

SGT Rock
11-20-2007, 12:32
According to everything I can find, the AT was re-routed away from there in 1948. I don't think it was kept open after that for a man-way. So as best as I can tell 1948 was the last official use. The back country ranger said that poachers come in that way a bit though - though he didn't list that exact route. I think that there is a better couple of ways to come in the park from the west end for the poachers - but they wouldn't be the best solution for the BMT to cross in on.

ki0eh
11-20-2007, 15:38
I've used llamas to pack in a whole pile of trail signs and sundry to go with them like concrete. Although due to unique circumstances and lack of future need I'm not planning to use them again, maybe it's a possibility for your situation if some llama fancier is nearby?

generoll
11-20-2007, 17:46
seems there were llamas over by Mountain Momas last time I drove by, FWIW.

Two Speed
11-20-2007, 19:40
Hey Sgt, just for planning purposes do you have any idea about when this trip might happen? Not looking for specific dates, just a rough estimate so I can make sure I've got some time blocked out.

SGT Rock
11-20-2007, 19:52
Wow, that is a great question to which I don't have a good answer. My best guess is this:

Jim puts the proposal together for the GSMNP back country guys - I think this part is going to require some deal cutting over another issue. I think that it will also end up requiring a trip with the ranger that supervises the back country for that area.

Next we have to go out and mark the section and do some preliminary cutting. I imagine that will have to wait until part 1 is done.

Once that is all done then we can really plan how to get a team up there. I would like to do it when it isn't that hot.

The real hard part to judge is how many hoops the park makes us go through. NEPA regulations could stall this for years, or we could be doing it next month for all I know. My preference though would be next fall when the leaves are down and the brush is back so the terrain is easier to see.

Hikerhead
11-20-2007, 20:48
Count me in! I'd love to see other trails in this section, as well as help in blazing new ones.

Thanks John. All are welcome and more hands means easier work for everyone.

Two Speed
11-20-2007, 22:11
. . . Next we have to go out and mark the section and do some preliminary cutting. I imagine that will have to wait until part 1 is done. . . Had a feeling that might be the case. Let me know if I can help. Have machete, will travel.
. . . My preference though would be next fall when the leaves are down and the brush is back so the terrain is easier to see.Sounds like the sage voice of experience to me.

Hikerhead
11-20-2007, 22:23
Here's a link to my pics of this hike. Check out the Harmonica's around the Campfire movie and turn your sound up.

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/561507276MtKvkJ

ed bell
11-20-2007, 22:24
I would like to do it when it isn't that hot.Well, you have my full backing on that proposal. I get enough of the summer, and then some, every summer. Any more Easy Company Maintenance trips on tap for your section?

ed bell
11-20-2007, 22:34
Here's a link to my pics of this hike. Check out the Harmonica's around the Campfire movie and turn your sound up.

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/561507276MtKvkJNice pictures/video of your weekend. Thanks for the link.

Two Speed
11-20-2007, 22:37
Here's a link to my pics of this hike. Check out the Harmonica's around the Campfire movie and turn your sound up.

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/561507276MtKvkJMost excellent. Gonna have to spend some time smoking that over. Of course one of the fun things is speculating if the trail/road work is part of the original AT alignment or another road or trail through the area.

Two Speed
11-20-2007, 22:47
According to everything I can find, the AT was re-routed away from there in 1948.Random thought: any idea if this was the route Earl Schaffer (SP?) followed?

Hikerhead
11-20-2007, 22:54
Pretty sure he did. Rock knows more about it.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-20-2007, 23:02
Were you fellows able to find any of the old blazes? Are there any old USGS benchmarks along the old route to help find it?

That area was criss-crossed with roads to small mountain settlements. My former father-in-law was from the mountains (his family was moved out to the now lost community of Calderwood make room for the park). He took me hiking several times and showed me several old passages thru the mountains - routes I've never seen on any map.

Two Speed
11-20-2007, 23:06
FD, I don't think the USGS benchmarks would have much correlation to the original AT route. That said, part of the problem could very well be that original trail may have taken advantage of some of those old roads. The tough part would be figuring out which old road. Next problem would be finding trees that survived and still bore discernable markings from that period. Best part of 60 years have come and gone since then.

Hikerhead
11-20-2007, 23:11
Not a single mark. No paint, no ax blaze, no old metal signs. There should be a benchmark on the high ridge climbing straight up above Dalton's Gap. We looked for it for just a minute without any luck. We crossed one old road in a hollow before climbing back up to the power line.

Two Speed
11-20-2007, 23:16
Hikerhead, do you know if that benchmark was actually on the old route? If so it might be possible to recover it if it's important.

Hikerhead
11-21-2007, 00:13
We believe the old AT followed an old woods road from Dalton Gap to the next gap (name?) where we lost all signs of it. This old road is hard to see some times, other times it's very visiable. Not untill we were climbing up to the power line did we we come across it again, side-trailed in the hill. The benchmark is on a high ridge above this old road, the state line, above (big, steap climb) and south of Dalton Gap. It's buried under the undergrowth on the high point supposedly . We didn't see any indicator trees that might have marked it's location. Rock seemed sure it was there somewhere, I don't know where you go to find locations of benchmarks but he had, evidently. Where is he??

generoll
11-21-2007, 07:42
From my 1967 Trail Guide:

"The abandoned portion of the Appalachian Trail, from Doe Knob to Deals Gap (9.5 miles) is now known as the 'Balds Trail' and is marked by blue paint blazes."

Dunno if that adds anything to what you already knew or not.

mudhead
11-21-2007, 07:55
This might help. I went thru a benchmark hunting phase awhile back. Don't know if this is still a cool site or not.

Put up a query, maybe some will go hunt for you...

mudhead
11-21-2007, 07:56
http://www.geocaching.com/mark/

Swift today!

Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-21-2007, 08:18
Would the ATC have any old manuscripts or information that might help with this endeavor?
I'm trying to contact a hiker I know - age 91 - to see if he knows any more about this. Yes, he still hikes some.:banana He is wintering in FL, but has lived in this area most of his life and returns here during the warmer months. They aren't answering the phone so they may be gone with some of their children for the holiday.

SGT Rock
11-21-2007, 08:55
Well, you have my full backing on that proposal. I get enough of the summer, and then some, every summer. Any more Easy Company Maintenance trips on tap for your section?
Probably not. I am leaving this weekend for Thanksgiving with Family. Then I am out on Government business until Christmas. After Christmas I start clearing the Army at Ft Knox - then there is SORUCK the weekend before I start my thru-hike. After the thru-hike I am thinking about a trip and a hike completion celebration with the gift my wife got me after getting back from Iraq.

Random thought: any idea if this was the route Earl Schaffer (SP?) followed?
Yes it is. I used "Walking With Spring" to help date the area and find the route.

Were you fellows able to find any of the old blazes? Are there any old USGS benchmarks along the old route to help find it?

That area was criss-crossed with roads to small mountain settlements. My former father-in-law was from the mountains (his family was moved out to the now lost community of Calderwood make room for the park). He took me hiking several times and showed me several old passages thru the mountains - routes I've never seen on any map.
No markers left at all other than some old road bed and the occasional sign of an old house (like tin roofing out in the middle of no where).

Hikerhead, do you know if that benchmark was actually on the old route? If so it might be possible to recover it if it's important.
It was not. And, as you probably know, there are two types of bench marks - mounted and unmounted. Army color maps have a way of telling you based on color whether they are mounted or unmounted. This map didn't have that sort of differential so we didn't waste a lot of time looking. When we go back, the new proposed route should go right across that BM, and we can spend some time looking.

From my 1967 Trail Guide:

"The abandoned portion of the Appalachian Trail, from Doe Knob to Deals Gap (9.5 miles) is now known as the 'Balds Trail' and is marked by blue paint blazes."

Dunno if that adds anything to what you already knew or not.
That is VERY good to know. Until I read this I figured the trail had been completely closed since 1948. I wish there were a better map than the one I had. The issue mainly is where the old AT crosses Dalton Ridge and heads down into the low ground with the streams - the terrain and vegetation there are not good for sustaining the trail. We think we know where it went through, but there is no real way to tell at this point and even if we did - using that route is probably not the best way since it would be harder to keep open than going over the ridges at that point.

Ramble~On
11-23-2007, 08:02
Count me in. I'm guessing there's gonna be more than a few trips needed, side-hill, tread work and plenty of brushing. I have tools to share as well.

AT_Disciple
11-23-2007, 10:46
Seems like it would be preferable to try to cut a rough trail over the winter and spring (before summer overgrowth),- is that sorta what u r thinking? If so, I could commit to a couple of days!

Hikerhead
11-23-2007, 11:10
It will probably be next fall at the earliest. Rock has his thru hike starting in Jan. Plus there's a lot of hoops to jump thru with the GSMNP people before there's any trail building.

generoll
11-23-2007, 11:18
I'd think the NPS would have conniptions if anyone were to start clearing trail before all the necessary hoops had been jumped.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-23-2007, 11:20
I'd think the NPS would have conniptions if anyone were to start clearing trail before all the necessary hoops had been jumped.I think they would make a federal case of it, literally....

MOWGLI
11-23-2007, 11:23
I'd think the NPS would have conniptions if anyone were to start clearing trail before all the necessary hoops had been jumped.

Yes, this is a process. The GSMNP is managed as a wilderness area. The NPS would not take kindly to folks clearing a trail without authorization.

Hikerhead
11-23-2007, 11:28
Absolutely they would. But we can still hike it. Maybe we can do another walk over in the spring before the leaves come out.

AT_Disciple
11-23-2007, 13:12
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/4/5/3/6/Hiker-Mule_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/4/5/3/6/Hiker-Mule_thumb.jpg)

OK thanks fellas - Just give us a shout when you're ready!

generoll
11-23-2007, 14:13
good, now all we need is a bale of hay.

SGT Rock
11-25-2007, 22:50
Yes you can hike it - I talked to George Minh (sp?) before even taking off on this trip. He gave me some information and wished me luck - but he said as long as you are not off trail camping you can go (or try to go) just about anywhere you want. I wouldn't start clearing out the trail as of yet other than moving some simple blow downs out of the way - but there was some obvious places where someone has done some stuff to clear a little. George said that poachers use that end of the park a bit, so I suppose they were responsible for some of it - as well as some of the clothing and gear we found in the middle of nowhere.

veteran
11-25-2007, 23:05
TOPO Maps of the area:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.48898&lon=-83.89598&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.48898&lon=-83.89598&datum=nad83&u=5&layer=DRG25&size=l&s=25

Old Proposed Great Smoky Mountains National Park, North Carolina-Tennessee. TOPO Map

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/map_item.pl?data=/home/www/data/gmd/gmd390/g3902/g3902g/np000172.sid&style=npmap&itemLink=D?gmd:1:./temp/~ammem_QvSq::&title=Proposed%20Great%20Smoky%20Mountains%20Natio nal%20Park,%20North%20Carolina-Tennessee

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=npmap&action=browse&fileName=gmd390m/g3902m/g3902gm/gnp00001/ct_browse.db&displayType=3&maxCols=3&recNum=0&itemLink=r?ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3902gm+gnp00001))&title2=Proposed%20Great%20Smoky%20Mountains%20Nati onal%20Park.&linkText=Back+to+bibliographic+information

Hikerhead
11-26-2007, 19:41
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.48627&lon=-83.89922&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25

Where I have the red dot is where we lost the trail. This is at the bottom of a steep hill, what looks to be old road. At the stream we went down stream where this shows the trail going up stream a little ways. And then it looks like it stayed on the same contor line across both steams. We'll have to check that out again the next time in there.

We really got turned around down in the bottom of those streams, well I did anyway.

Thanks Veteran.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-26-2007, 19:47
Did any of the early guys keep a journal and are they available? Gene Espy was the second man to thru-hike and was quite mentally astute at the Gathering in 2006. Could he answer some questions about the route?

SGT Rock
11-26-2007, 19:51
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.48852&lon=-83.89628&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25

Right about here is where I would turn the trail to go up the ridge towards Sheep Wallow Knob, I would have it follow the ridge a while then sidehill around the hill with BM 3310 to the saddle here:
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.49035&lon=-83.90271&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25

Then have it follow the ridge back to were the AT is which is about here:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.48102&lon=-83.90895&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25[/URL]

Then follow the old AT down to the power line. At the powerline it would probably be easier to go down to the private road like we did, but the better solution is probably to go down the draw here:

[URL]http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.4738&lon=-83.92008&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25 (http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.49035&lon=-83.90271&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25)

That would keep it off private road and have it come out within 50 yards of where the BMT comes out on the other side of US129.

Hikerhead
11-26-2007, 19:53
Did any of the early guys keep a journal and are they available? Gene Espy was the second man to thru-hike and was quite mentally astute at the Gathering in 2006. Could he answer some questions about the route?

Didn't he hike it in 53 or so? I think the trail had already been rerouted over Fontana Dam by then.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-26-2007, 20:00
Didn't he hike it in 53 or so? I think the trail had already been rerouted over Fontana Dam by then.I believe it was 1951

SGT Rock
11-26-2007, 20:01
Hikerhead is probably right on with this one. The new Fontana Dam route was official in 1948. Earl walked the old route that year because the markings were still off which seemed a regular problem back then according to his book. Anyone thru-hiking after Earl was sure to walk the new route - so this means all other thru-hikers since Earl was the first - and at the same time the last to thru-hike on that route.

SGT Rock
11-26-2007, 20:03
I believe it was 1951
I can loan you my copy of "Walking With Spring" which covers this - but it was definatly done in 1948.

Two Speed
11-26-2007, 20:17
. . . We really got turned around down in the bottom of those streams, well I did anyway. . . Not really surprising if you think about it. More vegetation, water flowing in a more concentrated area moving more soil, trees growing faster, etc. May not be anything left to find, or it may take a full blown archeological dig to find it.

SGT Rock
11-26-2007, 20:17
We did find some roofing material. Maybe the old AT was covered :D

Hikerhead
11-26-2007, 20:20
We did find some roofing material. Maybe the old AT was covered :D

Yeah, or maybe it was an old miners camp. I'm taking a pan the next time.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-26-2007, 20:42
Are you sure the AT crossed Highway 129 in the area of Deals Gap at all? It seems more likely that it crossed using the NC 228 bridge - a road now under Fontana Lake. If this is the case then the AT likely came down to the river north of the current location of Fontana Dam, crossed the river on the NC 228 bridge and followed the edge of the river downstream to the point where you guys picked it up.

SGT Rock
11-26-2007, 20:50
Are you sure the AT crossed Highway 129 in the area of Deals Gap at all? It seems more likely that it crossed using the NC 228 bridge - a road now under Fontana Lake. If this is the case then the AT likely came down to the river north of the current location of Fontana Dam, crossed the river on the NC 228 bridge and followed the edge of the river downstream to the point where you guys picked it up.
I am very sure based off of Earl's book that we were in the right place. He described how he followed the Yellowmountain Creek trail to Topocco, then took the AT near the Cheoah dam and specifically said he came out at Deals gap and crossed the road and then climbed up. He then specifically mentions that he crossed Parson's Bald, Sheep Pen Gap, and Gregory Bald. I don't have the book in front of me to confirm it, but I think he also mentioned Dalton Gap.

He also said he should have taken a new trail that led down to Fontana Dam instead of taking Yellow Creek Mountain Trail to Topocco as it had just been rerouted over Fontanna Dam in 1947 (completed in 1944, so that bridge would have already been gone by '48) but the markings were not in and the route wasn't opened by 1948.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
11-26-2007, 21:45
Sounds like it did cross that area since Earl talked about those landmarks. I finally got in touch with the 91 yo hiker I know. He didn't hike in that area much, but said his wife's people are from over there. He is going to ask around among his older in-laws.

Hikerhead
11-26-2007, 22:09
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.48852&lon=-83.89628&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25

Right about here is where I would turn the trail to go up the ridge towards Sheep Wallow Knob, I would have it follow the ridge a while then sidehill around the hill with BM 3310 to the saddle here:
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.49035&lon=-83.90271&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25

Then have it follow the ridge back to were the AT is which is about here:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.48102&lon=-83.90895&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25[/URL]

Then follow the old AT down to the power line. At the powerline it would probably be easier to go down to the private road like we did, but the better solution is probably to go down the draw here:

[URL]http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.4738&lon=-83.92008&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25 (http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.49035&lon=-83.90271&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25)

That would keep it off private road and have it come out within 50 yards of where the BMT comes out on the other side of US129.

Looks good. Where I have the red x here, http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.47629&lon=-83.91143&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25 is this where we crossed what looked to be an old road before we sidehilled up to the power line and came across maybe some old AT sidehilled in.

SGT Rock
11-26-2007, 22:16
That was here: http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.47387&lon=-83.91551&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25

Hikerhead
11-26-2007, 22:21
That was here: http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=35.47387&lon=-83.91551&s=25&size=l&u=5&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25

OK, and then the trail went around to the left of the highpoint of that knob like it shows. What was that other white line north of the power line?

SGT Rock
11-26-2007, 22:24
Ohh that place. Yes you had the right point.

Hikerhead
11-26-2007, 22:54
We did find some roofing material. Maybe the old AT was covered :D

Maybe the next time follow the creek(s) up steam and find an old homestead that this roofing material came from.

Max Power
02-03-2008, 23:44
Please keep me informed as the Fontana Hiking Club and non profit organization known as Fontana Foundation would love to help.