View Full Version : Down vs. Synthetic bags?
All backpacking i've done to this point has been with army suplus stuff, and am really looking forward to thru-hiking NOBO in 08 with a big girl bag. I've done the research on both and had pretty much decided on synthetic until one of my friends made me think twice. So, battle it out and convince me which is right for me. I know the basic pros and cons of each, so I'm really looking for people's experience with each. Only reason i'm concerend about down is that i doubt my ability to maintain it well (and dry) for a whole thru hike. Either way i'm planning on using a dry bag for the stuff sack. Consider myself to be an "advanced novice" backpacker. Thinking about: Marmot Helium and Pinnacle, REI sub kilo, Sierra Design Glow, and decided against Big Agnes. I sleep cold and am considering a hammock. I'd like to keep the weight close to 2 lbs and welcome more recommendations! Thanks!
See same info here
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28635&highlight=synthetic
Tipi Walter
11-23-2007, 16:19
Like Cuffs pointed out, there's good stuff here about both. If you doubt your ability or willingness to maintain a down bag, I would not get one. They require some presence of mind and consideration on a daily basis. A synthetic is more forgiving though here's the rub: They lose their loft permanently in just a few years(of constant use), whereas down does not. Of course, they are still heavier per warmth and a bit harder to stuff/bulkier.
Another rub is this: To get a zero rated synthetic vs a zero down bag, well, one look and most people would choose the down bag. And in real cold conditions, -15 or so, the best primaloft synthetic still will be heavier than the equivalent down bag(some expert said that primaloft is about like 550 down fill). With good down bags now at 850 fill or higher, they can get very light and very warm, a furnace.
Personally, I wouldn't go out in the winter without my down bag, it's rated to -15 and it's more than just a bag, it's a survival item. But extra attention has to be paid in keeping it dry.
Is there even a 0* synthetic bag under 2#?
FWIW, I switched from syn to down recently and love the difference that its brought. While lighter and warmer, it is more costly and takes more attention, but it will long outlive my syn. bag...
Tipi Walter
11-23-2007, 16:29
Is there even a 0* synthetic bag under 2#?
I bought my GF a zero rated Marmot Maverick synthetic a couple of years ago, Marmot quit making it. It's gotta be at least 4 pounds. But for intermittent camping(and she likes to wash things out frequently), this synthetic bag was a good choice. Heck, I'll carry it if it means she'll go out more.:)
If you sleep cold I would suggest not to use a hammock. I use the Marmot Pinnacle sleeping bag and I love it. Very light weight on cold nights, plus 20 degrees or higher. But keep it dry.
Dakota Dan
11-23-2007, 16:42
Is there even a 0* synthetic bag under 2#?
Maybe get one around 4-5 lbs.
I'm on the market for a new lightweight (?) down bag 0 deg or lower. Been browsing the web a bit today to see whats out there and looking at past WB gear threads trying to see what the best deal is in said bag. Probably the wrong season to be on the market for best deals but....Can a decent 0 deg. down bag be had for 200.00 or should i plan on spending more?
Dakota Dan
11-23-2007, 17:03
....Can a decent 0 deg. down bag be had for 200.00 or should i plan on spending more?
Probably only in something used.
A few weeks ago I saw a WM bag in great condition for just under $200.
Dakota Dan
11-23-2007, 17:04
I saw the bag on EBay.
warraghiyagey
11-23-2007, 17:14
Is there even a 0* synthetic bag under 2#?
I have a quest 0 degree bag, synthetic, full rectangle shape. IT's exectly 3 pounds and worth it. I'm never cold and have plenty of leg room and it's never been wet (dries easily from humidity). 1 bag - no worries. Survivial-wise I consider it my most important piece of gear.
I'm on the market for a new lightweight (?) down bag 0 deg or lower. Been browsing the web a bit today to see whats out there and looking at past WB gear threads trying to see what the best deal is in said bag. Probably the wrong season to be on the market for best deals but....Can a decent 0 deg. down bag be had for 200.00 or should i plan on spending more?
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=86905&memberId=12500226
Get you to killer deal season.
I have no experience with this bag. Just don't want you to blow the budget, ruin the frugal image and all.
Dakota Dan
11-23-2007, 18:42
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=86905&memberId=12500226
Get you to killer deal season.
I have no experience with this bag. Just don't want you to blow the budget, ruin the frugal image and all.
Thats a heck of a deal, even at 3.5#.
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=86905&memberId=12500226
Get you to killer deal season.
I have no experience with this bag. Just don't want you to blow the budget, ruin the frugal image and all.
Hehe, looks like a bargain
Thats a heck of a deal, even at 3.5#.
So should i expect to carry a 3lb.+ bag for this 0 deg. temp rating whether it's down or synthetic? It's been awhile
Tipi Walter
11-23-2007, 21:20
No offense mudhead, but I knew the posts on the Campmor down bags would come up, it was just a matter of time. Zero rated, $150!! Sounds too good to be true? It is.
People I have known who have used this bag in cold temps tell me to forget about it, not warm enough when out in the low digits. How many people have been out in Zero degrees night after night? IT'S COLD! Even a good zero rated down bag like the Marmot Couloir might not keep a majority of people warm, and it has 800 fill. And on a trip when the wind starts blowing and the snow swirling, a reliable rating usually goes out the window as you sit shivering in your new zero bag.
Another approach is to look at a rating and raise by 20, at least this way there's no disappointment. The best way? Two things: Fill power and fill weight. 800/850 plus fill power: Very Good. 35 oz or more fill weight? Very very good. These two numbers will mean a hot furnace when the temps dive to minus 10 or worse.
You get what you pay for with sleeping bags.
Synthetic if you're on a budget, Down if you've got the cash.
Again, you get what you pay for with sleeping bags. There aren't magic $100-200 bags that will perform like Western Mountaineering or Feathered Friends Bags and weight anything close to the same.
My Feathered Friends Widgeon costs a week's pay when I was in the military. It provided many warm happy nights throughout some winters, compared to a North Face bag that was rated the same (-10°F), weighed twice as much, was half a warm and was a quarter of the price.
Tipi Walter
11-24-2007, 08:47
You get what you pay for with sleeping bags.
Synthetic if you're on a budget, Down if you've got the cash.
Again, you get what you pay for with sleeping bags. There aren't magic $100-200 bags that will perform like Western Mountaineering or Feathered Friends Bags and weight anything close to the same.
My Feathered Friends Widgeon costs a week's pay when I was in the military. It provided many warm happy nights throughout some winters, compared to a North Face bag that was rated the same (-10°F), weighed twice as much, was half a warm and was a quarter of the price.
Yes, the Feathered Friends/Western Mountaineering bags are works of art, far beyond what Campmor or even North Face attempts. In the old days('75-'80), North Face used to make the best bags, in fact their top of the line down bag was called The North Face. Even then, with 550 fill, they were considered trend setters. Now? Routinely underfilled. I got my GF a women's down bag, Blue Igloo or something, rated 15 degrees, and at 30 she shivered all night. Why? Chronically underfilled. Sent it back after one trip. When baffles are mostly fabric and there's not that full bubble of down in each one, well, it's underfilled. Same for their Nupste down jacket, it could easily use another 5 oz of down.
Tipi Walter: Another approach is to look at a rating and raise by 20, at least this way there's no disappointment.
I was wondering if this would be the case with bag ratings.
It looks like a cold weather down bag of decent quality, o* or lower will run $3-400.00 easy.
Programbo
11-24-2007, 10:08
It all depends on your pocketbook...I would go with a good synthetic bag over a cheap down bag any day....Also a bag doesn`t have to be "wet" to suffer..Simply being damp or just excessive moisture will start to mat the down.....If you are worried about getting something that has to smash down to an insanely small size maybe a slightly larger pack is better than getting a cheap down bag just to save a few inches and ounces
Thread Drift
Just an Aside
Anyone remember Feathered Friends advertising slogan from the 1980's:
"We make the most expensive sleeping bags in the world. If you find one more expensive, let us know and we will gladly raise our price."
This was "tongue in cheek" obviously, but was an amusing slogan then, probably less effective now with all the high quality competition. I'm pretty sure I have my facts straight on this, but not certain.
End Thread Drift
hopefulhiker
11-24-2007, 10:53
I started out with a Western Mountaineering and finished up with a Nunatak Back country blanket.. Both were down.. I have used synthetic in the past and I think a good quality down bag is far superior because they are warmer per weight and compress smaller.. I had a down sweater too and I just double bagged it with an oven bag or a small trash bag inside a Luxury Lite water proof cylinder...
Also I would highly reccommend a silk liner to go with any bag you get. It adds warmth, more comfort, and helps keep the bag clean..... It can also be used by itself on those really warm nights....
Tipi Walter
11-24-2007, 11:08
Here's something else many people might not consider: Sheltering systems. You can't really talk about down bags without talking about the sheltering systems you plan on using with them. My good luck with down bags over the years is due in most part to using a stout 4 season tent, and I'd be interested in hearing about down users relying on tarps, bivies or hammocks in the worst weather of winter or when the summer rain squalls come.
Keeping a down bag dry with a tarp can be a challenge, and a down bag inside an exposed bivy sack(bedroll camping)might not be the best solution. In my bivy experience I found water leaks common around the head opening, plus the sweat/condensation moisture was a problem(not to mention the confining constriction, etc). I guess with the lighter weight shelter systems a synthetic bag might be better.
Anyone remember Feathered Friends advertising slogan from the 1980's:
"We make the most expensive sleeping bags in the world. If you find one more expensive, let us know and we will gladly raise our price."
This was "tongue in cheek" obviously, but was an amusing slogan then, probably less effective now with all the high quality competition. I'm pretty sure I have my facts straight on this, but not certain.
That is probably still a fairly accurate statement.
But....
I paid $650ish for my Widgeon and sold it a four years later for $525. Total cost less than a dollar a night.
I bought an as new Swallow second hand and will get about what I paid for it if/when I decide to get rid of it.
They're well worth it in the long run.
EMS makes some down bags In the $300.00 range rated for 0* and -20*.
Anyone have any knowledge of their quality? That's about the limit of my price range.
I have the EMS Velocity 35. Summer weight bag, but I'm happy with it. Is rated for 35* but has kept me warm down below freezing with an added silk liner. Other gear that I have had of EMS is good quality - not top of the line, but no complaints. Have never had an opportunity or need to return any gear, but I assume they would stand behind it, they are a long-established company. I would feel comfortable giving any of their gear a try.
EMS bag rating and satisfaction policy info:
Eastern Mountain Sports Response: With regard to temperature...sleeping bag ratings are relative to several conditions. Whether you are sleeping on a pad – and how thick?- or in a tent? - to your overall body chemistry. Some folks sleep warmer than others. Our first priority is your complete satisfaction with your Eastern Mountain Sports® purchase.
Please call us in customer service @ 888.463.6367, check out our website www.ems.com (http://www.ems.com), or visit one of our EMS Retail locations if we can assist you in any way.
The bags may be rated for the perfect scenario...In tent..on comfy pad...normal body chemistry.
One should probably adjust accordingly to determine proper bag temp. rating
All backpacking i've done to this point has been with army suplus stuff, and am really looking forward to thru-hiking NOBO in 08 with a big girl bag. I've done the research on both and had pretty much decided on synthetic until one of my friends made me think twice. So, battle it out and convince me which is right for me. I know the basic pros and cons of each, so I'm really looking for people's experience with each. Only reason i'm concerend about down is that i doubt my ability to maintain it well (and dry) for a whole thru hike. Either way i'm planning on using a dry bag for the stuff sack. Consider myself to be an "advanced novice" backpacker. Thinking about: Marmot Helium and Pinnacle, REI sub kilo, Sierra Design Glow, and decided against Big Agnes. I sleep cold and am considering a hammock. I'd like to keep the weight close to 2 lbs and welcome more recommendations! Thanks!
This past florida gathering, it got to 28 and i was warm in my w.m. mitylite that is rated at 40 ...in just boxers,and i sleep cold.
Save your money,so you only have to buy once.:)
I'm on the market for a new lightweight (?) down bag 0 deg or lower. Been browsing the web a bit today to see whats out there and looking at past WB gear threads trying to see what the best deal is in said bag. Probably the wrong season to be on the market for best deals but....Can a decent 0 deg. down bag be had for 200.00 or should i plan on spending more?
Hi, Woodsy. I have a Marmot Never Summer 0 deg bag. It's a little heavy for a down bag, but I needed it for its width - I have the long and it's 64" circ at shoulders.
http://www.rei.com/OM/style/747416?cm_mmc=aff_cj-_-datafeed-_-product-_-na&mr:referralID=1204dffb-ccc8-490f-bed8-db6d62daa8d6
REI has it on sale for $189...great bag that I haven't regretted buying once (and I paid the $269 for it a couple of years ago).
there appears to be a coupon for an additional $20 off here:
http://www.spadout.com/store.php?stpr_id=1875#
long weighs about 4#, regular (which REI doesn't appear to have, but campmor does) 3# 12 oz. A little heavy, but I didn't have $400 to shell out, and really like the shoulder width of the long....I think this is a great bag for the money.
I guess with the lighter weight shelter systems a synthetic bag might be better.
I used the same down bag from 1997 - 2006. I've been a tarp user since 2000. FWIW, I've never had a problem with a soaked down bag...but I've had to practice setting up a tarp.
If you use a tarp, with ANY bag, then I strongly suggest learning to set it up before going into the backcountry. A wet bag of any type is no fun.
Mags:A wet bag of any type is no fun.
C'mon mags, you must be able to remember one time when a wet bag was
fun:-?:D
C'mon mags, you must be able to remember one time when a wet bag was
fun:-?:D
Well, WB is a family friendly site..and since I pretend to be a gentleman.... 'nufff said. :D
Well, WB is a family friendly site..and since I pretend to be a gentleman.... 'nufff said. :D
You're right. I'm wrong, again:o
I have noticed though that there are not too many bags rated for below zero in the synthetic form, could be that the better cold weather bags are down?
You're right. I'm wrong, again:o
I have noticed though that there are not too many bags rated for below zero in the synthetic form, could be that the better cold weather bags are down?
I'd agree with this, the lighter, more compressable down has an even greater advantage when talking about the amount of loft needed for the really cold temps. Plus when you get into the teens and below, getting the bag wet is much less likely as long as you keep your breathing out of the bag and shake it off before packing to remove any ice crystals that form during the night. Also helps to take advantage of any nice sunny days to dry out the bag even if it doesn't feel damp. I've known people to hang their bags from their packs on nice days to give it several hours in the sun while they were hiking.
Jim Adams
11-26-2007, 00:25
I canoe alot and for years only purchased synthetic bags because of the possibility of getting wet. After 15-20 years of this I realized that I never got my bag wet. I switched to down and will never go back!
geek
Tipi Walter
11-26-2007, 00:39
I used the same down bag from 1997 - 2006. I've been a tarp user since 2000. FWIW, I've never had a problem with a soaked down bag...but I've had to practice setting up a tarp.
If you use a tarp, with ANY bag, then I strongly suggest learning to set it up before going into the backcountry. A wet bag of any type is no fun.
I'd be interested in knowing a little bit more of your tarp experiences. I only spent 10 weeks in a tarp in Jan/Feb '82 and was, well, walloped with arse-cold temps(-10 below for a 7 day stretch), along with a series of blizzards covering me over every night. In the morning it could not be said that I was in any kind of decent sheltering system since every morning I woke up buried in snow.
And recently I've had some high open bald windstorms(5300 feet)that I could not imagine getting thru in a tarp. I'd like to know some of your stories.
Jim Adams
11-26-2007, 00:50
I'd be interested in knowing a little bit more of your tarp experiences. I only spent 10 weeks in a tarp in Jan/Feb '82 and was, well, walloped with arse-cold temps(-10 below for a 7 day stretch), along with a series of blizzards covering me over every night. In the morning it could not be said that I was in any kind of decent sheltering system since every morning I woke up buried in snow.
And recently I've had some high open bald windstorms(5300 feet)that I could not imagine getting thru in a tarp. I'd like to know some of your stories.
Tipi Walter,
I use my tarp in the winter and in snow but never got the snow loads that you mention however I was under a tarp along the Ohio River thru Hurricane Hugo...rained enough that the river came up 26' in those 4 days. All my gear stayed dry.:cool:
geek
And recently I've had some high open bald windstorms(5300 feet)that I could not imagine getting thru in a tarp. I'd like to know some of your stories.
(burning some midnight oil tonight..sigh)
PCT 2002, Colorado Trail 2004, CDT 2006 and other things in between. Rain (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=36&g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=9313), snow (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=36&g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=14331), no plagues of locusts. To quote Job 1:7 "Wandering to an fro on the earth and up and down in it". :)
Feel free to read my journals. I can sum it up in one run-on sentence: The weather was bad, I pitched a tarp, I ate, I slept, I got up, I hiked, ended up in Mexico. ;)
If I doing true winter camping, I'll build a snow cave (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=36&g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=11707) (or an igloo! (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=36&g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=11507)). Now-a-days, I'm a wimp and go to backcountry ski huts (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=36&g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=11515) and whip up some pasta carbonara washed down with a red table wine. Berry cobbler for dessert with some cocoa and schnapps.
A few days ago I checked out Sierra Trading Post's website. They had all of their stock at least 50% off.
Check there, QUICK!
Jim Adams
11-26-2007, 03:23
I have an EMS 0* down bag with a pertex lining and I love it. Had it for 4 years now. The temp rating is spot on. Don't know the weight but it feels very light for a 0* and stuffs as small as a cantalope. I don't know the cost...I got it new for $70 at an EMS that was closing. Slept n it last night @ 12* and didn't zip it.
geek
Nightwalker
11-26-2007, 03:59
Personally, I wouldn't go out in the winter without my down bag, it's rated to -15 and it's more than just a bag, it's a survival item. But extra attention has to be paid in keeping it dry.
But! It gets to being like second nature after awhile, wouldn't you agree Walter?
Tipi Walter
11-26-2007, 10:43
But! It gets to being like second nature after awhile, wouldn't you agree Walter?
Pet the little dog for me!
The novice camper can do some pretty stupid things, like throwing their nice down bag on the ground to sit on, like eating and spilling foods/oils/honey etc on their bag, like sitting around a camp fire with it wrapped around their shoulders(someone say "burn holes"), like depending on a shelter system that clearly leaks(or in a AT shelter with windblown rain), and like using subgrade stuff sacks that are not waterproof.
But you're right, after some years of using a down bag there's no real problems, the thing is amazing and is my ticket to places most people don't want to be(i.e.COLD).
if you're experienced in the outdoors and have the cash- go down. more comfy, lighter, and more longevity.
if you're new, and/or are heading somewhere wet (or you haven't learned techniques for staying dry) definitely synthetic.
winter camping- go down. unless you expect some sloppy wet mixed bag precip. (mid atlantic or pac-nw)