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Possum Bill
11-25-2007, 23:17
I guess I've watch too much "Beyond the Limit" on the Discovery Channel because I've got a big itch to do some higher elevation mountaineering next year. Being from Tennessee, the only mountains I've set foot on are the Appalachians so I have zero experience climbing on snow, ice, or anything above the tree line. I've never carried an ice axe, worn crampons, etc.

So... what I was thinking about doing was taking a few days vacation next year, flying somewhere out west, and hiring a guide service to give me an introductory course on ice/snow climbing, and then letting them guide me up to a not-so-technical summit (possibly like Mount Hood) for my first time.

I was wondering if any of you have any experience with doing something similar to this? Do you have any experience or could recommend a particular guide service? Is there also a particular mountain you would recommend for a newbie to climb??

Thanks,
Possum

stranger
11-26-2007, 00:14
Check out RMI, they lead climbs up Rainier and they are pretty damn good at the details...bring your wallet though.

Mt Rainier is a walk up, it's not technical, but it's a very long walk up.

Lyle
11-26-2007, 00:17
Doesn't NOLS (National Outdoor Leadership School) offer 4-day courses also? Seems I've heard people talk about them.

Tipi Walter
11-26-2007, 00:53
Get on this website and ask Bill S. for some info. He knows a lot.

www.trailspace.com/forums/ (http://www.trailspace.com/forums/)

take-a-knee
11-26-2007, 00:53
Before you spend a lot of money on a guide out west, buy a copy of Freedom of the Hills and read it a couple of times. Buy a couple of good books on mountaineering knots, get a couple of pieces of 8-9mm cord of different colors and start tying. THEN get someone in TN to teach you basic rock climbing, these are all things you need to know BEFORE you show up somewhere at an alpine style climbing school. I would look at Colorado first, I think there are 40 peaks over 14,000ft, no glaciers (therefore no crevasses) and milder temps.

Jim Adams
11-26-2007, 01:09
Possum Bill,
I was just like you...biggest mountains I'd seen were the Whites.
I climbed (walked) to the summit of Whitney this summer while on the PCT.
No crampons, no ice ax but the craziest uphill I've ever been on!
Check that out.

geek

EWS
11-26-2007, 01:09
Before you spend a lot of money on a guide out west, buy a copy of Freedom of the Hills and read it a couple of times. Buy a couple of good books on mountaineering knots, get a couple of pieces of 8-9mm cord of different colors and start tying. THEN get someone in TN to teach you basic rock climbing, these are all things you need to know BEFORE you show up somewhere at an alpine style climbing school. I would look at Colorado first, I think there are 40 peaks over 14,000ft, no glaciers (therefore no crevasses) and milder temps.

Excellent advice. You can learn for free, working from the bottom up, as take-a-knee described. The most important thing is finding a partner who you have no issues with, they are your lifeline and you must trust them as so.

Dirty Harry
11-26-2007, 01:13
Co is a nice start, I would like to say as well that Rainer is deff not a walk up, and if your going on Glacier make shure you know how to rope up, use an axe for what its intended for, and know crevasse rescue. I would deff take a course in alpine Mo. Alpine ascents and Berg Adventures are to great co. that offer those classes and courses.

Cabin Fever
11-26-2007, 12:31
I would suggest Exum Mountaineering througto do the Tetons outisde of Jackson Hole. They did a day of rock school and a day of snow school for my college mountaineering class before we summitted the Middle Teton.

mudhead
11-26-2007, 13:44
I would suggest Exum Mountaineering througto do the Tetons outisde of Jackson Hole. They did a day of rock school and a day of snow school for my college mountaineering class before we summitted the Middle Teton.

Very cool. Town is sad though.

Pick a spot, out west. Don't need rope to get up in the air.

Bearpaw
11-26-2007, 13:44
Before you spend a bunch of time learning to rock climb, you have to ask yourself what you really want to do.

If your concept of mountaineering is peak bagging 14'ers, you can do MANY without ever having to touch a rope or crampons, though you'll likely want an ice axe for self-arrest if you're "climbing" in late Spring or earlier Summer.

If you want to climb large glaciated mountains, you'll need to learn to rope up, self-arrest, and perform crevasse rescue as part of a rope team. You'll need to learn techniques for walking and climbing with crampons, which is very awkward at first.

If you want to climb large walls, you'll need to learn rope use, protection placement, commands, moves, anchor placement (which is more advanced than mere pro placement), and you won't learn these in just a few days. Students on a 30-day NOLS course often never reach the ability to lead on a trad route. Any program that tries to move you from novice to leading in a few days is not a group I would go with (if such a group exists).

But you really have to decide WHAT form of mountaineering you want. The first group of skills I mentioned is basically just "mountain hiking" versus true mountaineering, but I find it preferable, because I can do these solo with reasonable safety.

NOLS does NOT offer anything as short as 4 days. The shortest courses I know of are 10-day whitewater, but the shortest generally are 14-day rock camps or 30-day mountaineering courses, with different branches teaching different styles. Rocky Mountain teaching mostly rock-climbing with some ice axe style travel to contend with snow. Alaska mountaineering is glacier. Pacific Northwest does a mix depending on when you take the course. Contact the folks to find out more. (BTW, I worked for NOLS for 3 summers from 2001-2003, so I'm fairly familiar with the programs.)

I've heard RMI is a reputable group that safely fast-tracks folks for Rainier ascents, but have not worked with them personally.

Kirby
11-26-2007, 17:33
Mountain Madness, from what people have told me, has a great introduction to mountaineering course in the Rockies, I am not just saying that because I read Into Thin Air either, I knew about them before that.

Kirby

RedneckRye
11-27-2007, 01:49
BearPaw's last post was dead on. Figure out what specifically what you want to do and then start researching.
RMI is highly recommended if you want to get to the top of Mt.Rainier. I've heard from several people that RMI is horrible if you want to learn to climb. There is a big difference between those two goals.
I took a NOLS mountaineering course this summer, 30 days in the Eastern Alaska Range. We did not summit anything big, just a couple of unnamed 9000 foot peaks. But we spent an entire month learning how to live on a glacier, how to travel safely, how to do crevasse rescue, how to live in very tight spaces, how to work and travel as a team. Now that I have that knowledge and skills, I'm looking to walk to the top of some taller mountains. Pico de Orizaba down in Mexico is one that I am currently looking into.

Also, like Take-A-Knee said, pick up a copy of Freedom of the Hills. It is the bible of the mountains. Even if you weren't planning on learning to climb is an incredibly useful and informative book.

climbabout
11-27-2007, 10:06
I have had several experiences with RMI and I can tell you all of them have been good. I've done their 3 day summit climb twice, taken their winter mountaineering seminar and used them for a Mckinley climb. I've probably worked with 20 different RMI guides over the years and each one has been great. Here's my .02 however. The 3 day summit climb is not a good place to learn mountaineering. They call it the death march for a reason. They give you a very basic lesson in cramponing and self arrest on day one and days 2 and 3 you attempt to summit. It's usually about 27 or 28 hrs round trip and you're climbing for about 18 hours with a short rest at camp muir for dinner and if you're lucky a few hours of sleep. Your best bet if you want to learn a variety of skills is to take one of their mountaineering seminars.

You also might do just as well in the White Mountains in New Hampshire. I cut my teeth there and still climb there. There are several good schools in North Conway - EMS and IME to name a couple. Mount Washington has some of the worst weather on earth - you can learn your skills there without the complications of altitude. The lion head winter route is steep, icy and challenging and a good place to learn to travel in the winter. There are also several challenging alpine routes there as well, not to mention world class ice climbing and rock climbing in the same area.
Good Luck
Tim
p.s. - the previous advice about Freedom of the Hills is excellent - it's really the bible of mountaineering. If you decide to head to Mount Washington, pick up a copy of "Not Without Peril" - it's a fascinating read of all true stories.

4eyedbuzzard
11-29-2007, 01:50
Be prepared to part with LOTS of money, especially if you advance beyond climbs within the contenental U.S. Mountaineering costs pretty much go up exponentially with altitude.

RedneckRye
11-29-2007, 11:05
Be prepared to part with LOTS of money, especially if you advance beyond climbs within the contenental U.S. Mountaineering costs pretty much go up exponentially with altitude.

Its only money, why not spend it on something interesting.

The Solemates
11-29-2007, 15:13
I guess I've watch too much "Beyond the Limit" on the Discovery Channel because I've got a big itch to do some higher elevation mountaineering next year. Being from Tennessee, the only mountains I've set foot on are the Appalachians so I have zero experience climbing on snow, ice, or anything above the tree line. I've never carried an ice axe, worn crampons, etc.

So... what I was thinking about doing was taking a few days vacation next year, flying somewhere out west, and hiring a guide service to give me an introductory course on ice/snow climbing, and then letting them guide me up to a not-so-technical summit (possibly like Mount Hood) for my first time.

I was wondering if any of you have any experience with doing something similar to this? Do you have any experience or could recommend a particular guide service? Is there also a particular mountain you would recommend for a newbie to climb??

Thanks,
Possum


We would be interesting in joining you if you would like to have partners on the trip. Hood is in the works for us. We were thinking of doing some other peaks next summer to prepare for bigger climbs like rainier and hood.

4eyedbuzzard
11-29-2007, 19:18
Its only money, why not spend it on something interesting.
Did I suggest not spending it? Just giving a heads up.

Possum Bill
11-30-2007, 00:27
Before you spend a bunch of time learning to rock climb, you have to ask yourself what you really want to do.

If your concept of mountaineering is peak bagging 14'ers, you can do MANY without ever having to touch a rope or crampons, though you'll likely want an ice axe for self-arrest if you're "climbing" in late Spring or earlier Summer.

If you want to climb large glaciated mountains, you'll need to learn to rope up, self-arrest, and perform crevasse rescue as part of a rope team. You'll need to learn techniques for walking and climbing with crampons, which is very awkward at first.

If you want to climb large walls, you'll need to learn rope use, protection placement, commands, moves, anchor placement (which is more advanced than mere pro placement), and you won't learn these in just a few days. Students on a 30-day NOLS course often never reach the ability to lead on a trad route. Any program that tries to move you from novice to leading in a few days is not a group I would go with (if such a group exists).

But you really have to decide WHAT form of mountaineering you want. The first group of skills I mentioned is basically just "mountain hiking" versus true mountaineering, but I find it preferable, because I can do these solo with reasonable safety.

NOLS does NOT offer anything as short as 4 days. The shortest courses I know of are 10-day whitewater, but the shortest generally are 14-day rock camps or 30-day mountaineering courses, with different branches teaching different styles. Rocky Mountain teaching mostly rock-climbing with some ice axe style travel to contend with snow. Alaska mountaineering is glacier. Pacific Northwest does a mix depending on when you take the course. Contact the folks to find out more. (BTW, I worked for NOLS for 3 summers from 2001-2003, so I'm fairly familiar with the programs.)

I've heard RMI is a reputable group that safely fast-tracks folks for Rainier ascents, but have not worked with them personally.


Thanks for all the input guys. You gave me a lot of different guide sources and ideas to check out, and that's exactly what I was looking for, so thank you. I'll also get a copy of Freedom of the Hills... I'd already heard from another friend that it was a great mountaineering guide.

Bearpaw, I think I already know the form of mountaineering I would like to try. What I'm mostly interested in is the glaciated volcanic mountains in the northwest... mountains like Hood, Shasta, Adams, Baker, etc. appeal to me, and I think something like Rainer would be a good eventual goal.

Peak bagging and state high-pointing do interest me very much, but basically I want to try to something new other than just hiking. I know I can go climb something like Whitney and get a high altitude peak under my belt (and I DO hope to do that one day), but to me that's not much different than what I'm used to (other than the altitude).

What I want to do is some mid-level alpine climbing. I want to climb with crampons and an ice axe, and be part of a rope team on the more technical climbs. However with that being said, I don't think class V, or vertical ice or large wall climbs are for me. It not because I wouldn't mind trying it, but it's simply a matter of logistics and money. Since I live in Tennessee (and since I don't have a lot of extra cash laying around to travel), this is something that I'll be able to do maybe once a year as a vacation. So, I won't be able to take the time to learn the super-technical stuff, nor would I be able to put it to use that often even if I did learn it. So I want to try something very new and challenging, but still keep it fairly simple. Hope that makes sense.

Thanks again,
Possum

take-a-knee
11-30-2007, 00:41
Possum, you don't have to be a 5.12 hot shot sport (rock) climber, but you must be competent enough on the rocks to lead and protect 5.6 or 5.7 or so to be a competent alpine climber. You must learn how to belay reflexively, without thought, ropework, knots, and self-rescue or you can get yourself in a real jamb. This is mostly what separates a Whitney walkup from an alpine climb, and the skills can be learned in TN.

EWS
11-30-2007, 00:52
But if you do progress to freeing 5.12's, big climbs become more enjoyable and less strenous/stressful, cause you won't blink at some of the stuff people are setting up protection for and can complete the climb more quickly.

take-a-knee
11-30-2007, 01:03
But if you do progress to freeing 5.12's, big climbs become more enjoyable and less strenous/stressful, cause you won't blink at some of the stuff people are setting up protection for and can complete the climb more quickly.

Good point, also climbing a 5.7 in crampon compatible boots isn't the same as doing it in rock shoes.

climbabout
11-30-2007, 08:39
What I want to do is some mid-level alpine climbing. I want to climb with crampons and an ice axe, and be part of a rope team on the more technical climbs. However with that being said, I don't think class V, or vertical ice or large wall climbs are for me. It not because I wouldn't mind trying it, but it's simply a matter of logistics and money. Since I live in Tennessee (and since I don't have a lot of extra cash laying around to travel), this is something that I'll be able to do maybe once a year as a vacation. So, I won't be able to take the time to learn the super-technical stuff, nor would I be able to put it to use that often even if I did learn it. So I want to try something very new and challenging, but still keep it fairly simple. Hope that makes sense.

Thanks again,
Possum

Possum - you might also want to consider a guided climb of Mount Whitney via the "Mountaineers Route" in late winter/early spring. Both Sierra Mountaineering and International Mountain Guides run trips there in late March and Early April. There's usually tons of snow on the route and it's a completely different climb than in the summer. I've done it twice and I would highly recommend it. Here's a link with some info:
http://mountainguides.com/whitney.shtml
Good luck.
Tim