"Stealth Camping"...What is it?

[Sly]

It doesn't mean illegal camping, unless you use the archaic or obsolete definition of stealth. The term has been twisted by AT enthusiasts! It was originally coined by Ray Jardine as a method to avoid Sierra bears and to have a more enjoyable hike by avoiding established campsites. To camp off trail as unobtrusive as possible in an otherwise legal camping area. See definition 3

Main Entry: stealth
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'stelth
Etymology: Middle English stelthe; akin to Old English stelan to steal
1 a archaic : THEFT b obsolete : something stolen
2 : the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly <the state moves by stealth to gather information -- Nat Hentoff>
3 : the state of being furtive or unobtrusive
4 : an aircraft-design characteristic consisting of oblique angular construction and avoidance of vertical surfaces that is intended to produce a very weak radar return

On the other hand is illegal camping, which is self explanatory.

[SGT Rock]

That is what I assume stealth camping means. BUT you could stealth camp somewhere you are not supposed to camp too.

[Lone Wolf]

That is what I assume stealth camping means. BUT you could stealth camp somewhere you are not supposed to camp too.

that's what i do. but define camping

[Sly]

That is what I assume stealth camping means. BUT you could stealth camp somewhere you are not supposed to camp too.

Maybe but not really. ;) When someone asks about stealth camping sites in the Whites or Smokies they really should be asking where they can camp illegally.

[SGT Rock]

Well I often stealth camp in places where it is legal. But in places where you are supposed to stay at a shelter there is "creative interpretation" of the hiking rules. I once stayed at a shelter that was full from the reservation folks and thru-hikers. They had it already over capacity and I had a reservation. I decided to hang outside even though technically I should have kicked one of the thru-hikers out and slept inside the shelter even though I hate the things and they wanted to be in there.

[Sly]

Well I often stealth camp in places where it is legal. But in places where you are supposed to stay at a shelter there is "creative interpretation" of the hiking rules.

I can accept that, just don't go spreading it around. ;)

[SGT Rock]

Exactly. There is a saying in Recruiting command - never tell a story about what you got away with - only tell stories about the ones you have been caught doing.

[KirkMcquest]

Well....If a person camps illegally, but nobody knows it, did it really happen?

[Sly]

Well....If a person camps illegally, but nobody knows it, did it really happen?


Of course it happened, like a tree making noise when it falls.

My point is when people ask or talk about stealth camping they're usually referring to illegal camping. If I ask about good stealth spots in the Whites, I'm looking for a legal spot.

[rickb]

Most hikers are afraid of walking 100 feet, much less 200 yards, into the woods to pitch a tent.

There a a gazillion good reason to stealth camp, but most thru hikers stay very near the Trail. They get nervious if they can't see the Trail, and will usually be within its sight even when stealth camping. So its often not really stealth camping at all.

Equipment makers understand that people don't really value stealth camping-- most back county tents are still bright colors.

[Lone Wolf]

Most hikers are afraid of walking 100 feet, much less 200 yards, into the woods to pitch a tent.

There a a gazillion good reason to stealth camp, but most thru hikers stay very near the Trail. They get nervious if they can't see the Trail, and will usually be within its sight even when stealth camping. So its often not really stealth camping at all.

Equipment makers understand that people don't really value stealth camping-- most back county tents are still bright colors.

all truth there

[Cannibal]

Equipment makers understand that people don't really value stealth camping-- most back county tents are still bright colors.

I know everybody hates to hear about them :rolleyes:, but that's one of the real nice things about hammocks. You can go stealth with ease because many of the manufacturers use muted colors and camo tarps are obviously available. Plus, it opens up many more sites that would not be suitable, or comfortable, for tents or tarptents.

OR, if you like the attention, you can get Hubba orange hammocks a plenty.

[Lone Wolf]

I know everybody hates to hear about them :rolleyes:, but that's one of the real nice things about hammocks. You can go stealth with ease because many of the manufacturers use muted colors and camo tarps are obviously available. Plus, it opens up many more sites that would not be suitable, or comfortable, for tents or tarptents.

OR, if you like the attention, you can get Hubba orange hammocks a plenty.

most of my stealthing is just laying on the ground. no tent, tarp, hammock, etc

[rafe]

... but most thru hikers stay very near the Trail. They get nervious if they can't see the Trail, and will usually be within its sight even when stealth camping.

Damn straight, and there are good reasons for that. First and foremost among them is not getting lost. Hell, we're constantly being told that you don't need a compass on the AT, and that "all you have to do is follow the blazes." I've had some disconcerting experiences stepping a bit too far off the trail just to pee. Do you really want to have to resort to a compass to find your way back to the trail after de-camping in the morning?

Not to mention that "near the trail" is likely to be where the flat ground is. Which generally matters, at least if you're planning to tent.

[SGT Rock]

If you use a hammock, flat ground is not needed ;)

But yes, some folks get nervous if they cannot see a trail - any trail they can follow. Some of the best stealth spots are up above the trail where you can look down on the AT and people don't know you are there.

[rafe]

Some of the best stealth spots are up above the trail where you can look down on the AT and people don't know you are there.

RickB was talking specifically about camping places where you can't see the A.T. Personally, when I'm hiking, I want to know where the trail is at all times. I'm not into bushwhacking, thank you.

[SGT Rock]

Ohh there is a cool place over a waterfall near Hampton TN. Perfect for a hanger to look down at AT hikers who won't know he is there. Cue the hilbilly music as they walk by.

[rickb]

Damn straight, and there are good reasons for that. First and foremost among them is not getting lost.

Simple strategy that work every time.

Find a stream that crosses the AT. Follow it into the woods. Camp. Reverse.

[Lone Wolf]

Simple strategy that work every time.

Find a stream that crosses the AT. Follow it into the woods. Camp. Reverse.

folks like terrapin are too skeered to do that

[rafe]

If you use a hammock, flat ground is not needed ;)


I understand there are certain advantages to hammocks. And disadvantages also. That's for another thread. :cool: (There's only so many new tricks this old dog is willing to learn.)

[SGT Rock]

Yes, besides not needing flat ground, they facinate the hell out of bears.

[shelterbuilder]

Yes, besides not needing flat ground, they facinate the hell out of bears.

??"Meal-on-a-rope"??:eek:

[SGT Rock]

Bear pinata. Get it right.

[shelterbuilder]

Bear pinata. Get it right.

I can't bear this much longer...sorry.:D

[rafe]

Simple strategy that work every time.

Find a stream that crosses the AT. Follow it into the woods. Camp. Reverse.

First you gotta find a stream. One that has passable woods that you can follow. And even if you do, there's no guarantee that it will lead to flat ground. As I recall, streams have a habit of following the fall line. :rolleyes:

[Uncle Silly]

Not to mention that "near the trail" is likely to be where the flat ground is. Which generally matters, at least if you're planning to tent.

Not true. There's plenty of flat ground that's nowhere near the AT. Walk off the trail and look around a bit, you're bound to find something.

[rafe]

There a a gazillion good reason to stealth camp.

To tell the truth, I had more than enough solitude on my last 750 miles of the AT. I had 24-hour and 48 periods without seeing another soul on the trail. I had shelters to myself, night after night. I was looking for company and not finding it.

I'm not usually hiking to repudiate or escape from civilization. I sorta like people (in small quantities and favorable settings,) and usually enjoy the company of other hikers, especially at camp.

[taildragger]

Just find a deer trail, theres probably some bedding area thats not too far away, and you've got a trail to the trail.

And as for bushwhacking, it builds character, get out there and run through the woods, the AT is still the beaten path.

[Lyle]

There is another misuse of the term stealth camping that I have noticed over the past few years. Many journal writers seem to be referring to any camping away from shelters as "stealth". I recall one such writer who actually said he has "stealth camped" right on the trail tread, because it was the flattest place he could find. Often times others have stated, "I stealth camped 1/2 mile south of such and such gap, then include a photo of a brightly colored tent, gear spread all over, food bag hanging - hardly what I would consider "stealth".

Thank you for bringing this up Sly, it has been a minor annoyance for me for several years now. :-)

[oso loco]

There is another misuse of the term stealth camping that I have noticed over the past few years. Many journal writers seem to be referring to any camping away from shelters as "stealth". I recall one such writer who actually said he has "stealth camped" right on the trail tread, because it was the flattest place he could find. Often times others have stated, "I stealth camped 1/2 mile south of such and such gap, then include a photo of a brightly colored tent, gear spread all over, food bag hanging - hardly what I would consider "stealth".

Thank you for bringing this up Sly, it has been a minor annoyance for me for several years now. :-)


LOL - I've run into the "camping on the trail tread" more than once - especially on the PCT. One thing those peole don't seem to consider is that wildlife uses the trails as highways. In Montana, just north of the Chinese Wall, the trail was literally packed with bear tracks. Sleeping "on the trail tread" would make one a "bear taco". Ran into the same kind of thing just south of Saskatchewan Crossing this summer except the tracks were made by a wolf pack. Gotta figure I'd rather be "lost" than eaten.

OTOH - I've never been "lost" by wandering off-trail to find a place to camp. Memory works for me, but obviously not for everyone. A simple solution for those who need it is to use your hiking stick to point the way back to the trail.

[Captn]

There is one other point concerning Stealth camping ...

When you leave no one should ever be able to tell that you were there. It should be the ultimate in LNT.

That means no fire, no trash, and the smallest footprint you can possibly leave.

I've stealth camped near trails before, stopping well after the sun went down and up at first light. Most of these stops have been to toss out my groundsheet, pad, quilt, and lightweight Bivy, and to take care to redress the area to leave it as I found it, such as rescattering pine needles. You certainly would have seen me if you were wondering down the trail at midnight, but not during light hours, that's for sure.

Othertimes I've climbed small hills above the trail, or walked around behind some big rocks, and even followed game trails for a few hundred yards ... although you're best not to toss out your bag on the animal trail unless you just like being stepped on in the middle of the night.

Stealth doesn't necessarily mean that no one can see you while you're there, but it certainly means that no one should be able to tell where you were after you leave.

One of the things I love about my homemade ultralight Bivy sack.

[CoyoteWhips]

There are many places where you are not trespassing unless somebody finds you and tells you to go away. If nobody sees you, nobody cares.

Stealth.

[OldStormcrow]

It seems as though most people's opinions of the definition of the term "stealth camping" would be roughly the same as "no trace" camping. There is a proper term for true "stealth", "tactical", etc. camping (the illegal kind). It's often used as a verb.....I "pulch", you "pulch", he she or it "pulches", etc. This method of camping is known as "pulching". The noun form is "pulcher". I know this to be true......

[EWS]

Go up hills and not down them when trying to stealth camp.

[horicon]

When did camping become illegal?

[SGT Rock]

In about 1980 in the smokies

[horicon]

That is not good!!!!!! Where else is it illegal to camp on the AT???

[SGT Rock]

Other places have rules about where you cannot camp - say within 500' of a water source or occasionally spots where the trail has overuse camping and there is a camping ban - I ran up against this once at the end of a long day - my planned campsite was a no camping zone for about 1/4 mile, and once I was out of that zone it was the side of a mountain.

[rafe]

That is not good!!!!!! Where else is it illegal to camp on the AT???

Lots of places. Somr state parks, for example (I remember one in MA with big "No Camping" signs.)

[The Old Fhart]

Bt02-"That is not good!!!!!! Where else is it illegal to camp on the AT???"Maryland-You are required to stay at designated shelters and campsites. New Jersey-North of DWG, lots of places.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

:confused: Not sure what to make of people's fear of going into the woods to camp. I have done this for years and have never had any trouble finding my way back to the trail I was on. I do sometime use small limbs (to form an arrow) to point back toward the trail in confusing terrain.

IMO, stealth camping is finding a site that is not general used that cannot be seen from a trail, using strict LNT methods and returning the site to its pristine condition when leaving. The legality of camping at a site has no significance in determining whether it is a stealth camp or not.

[Lyle]

Good definition FD, I agree completely. But if you are going to camp illegally, you better be stealth camping.

When I first used the term, I was on a cross-country hike when we would be in an area, with no idea who owned the woods or fields we were passing. We would "stealth" camp so as not to attract attention and thus be asked to "move on".

Worked great, even spent one night in a roadside barn, successfully "stealthing". I will admit, this last incident was a questionable choice, but we took every precaution I would ask if it were my barn, no candles, no stoves, no smoking, no trash, no disturbing contents, etc.

[johnny quest]

2 points. point 1....the daddy of stealth camping is the patrol r.o.n. (rest over night) on your belly, ankles crossed with the guy next to you in a 360 outboard position on high ground. in less hostile environs it would be loosened pack straps sitting with your back against a tree, the rest of your fire team doing the same facing in every direction.
point 2... when i stealth camp its to be away from people. if the stealth camping happens to be illegal that is secondary.

[bredler]

Recently, I have noticed a little bit of, well sort of behind the hand corner of the mouth talk regarding "stealth camping."

so am I missing something?

Is "stealth camping" setting up a shelter away from the trail where you are not allowed by the local authorities?

or am I just imagining things?

[Sly]

Recently, I have noticed a little bit of, well sort of behind the hand corner of the mouth talk regarding "stealth camping."

so am I missing something?

Is "stealth camping" setting up a shelter away from the trail where you are not allowed by the local authorities?


That's the puritanical AT definiftion. AFAIK it was first coined on the PCT and is LNT camping, off trail, to avoid bears and have a more enjoyable hike.

Illegal camping is frowned on, regardless of trail.

[superman]

but it's better than shelters.

[Tipi Walter]

That's the puritanical AT definiftion. AFAIK it was first coined on the PCT and is LNT camping, off trail, to avoid bears and have a more enjoyable hike.

Illegal camping is frowned on, regardless of trail.

More and more stealth camping will occur when fee hiking, camping permits, use regulations and other backpacking restrictions continue to increase and probably eventually flourish. As land becomes more sought after, as the population mushrooms, as sprawl, roads and logging cuts into more of the dininishing outdoors, there will be bountiful opportunities for backpackers to practice their stealth camping skills.

In my peanut sized brain, stealth camping is not simply bushwacking to a place hidden and setting up camp, that's just regular backpacking and camping whether you're 10 feet off the trail or a mile. Stealth camping is staying at a place that is probably not allowed by one authority or another, whether a private landowner, a State Park, the NPS, or a dozen other land controlling agencies.

A good example of stealth camping is sleeping in the woods off the highway on a long hitch hiking trip. And stealth camping seems to be easier in the dead of winter when the nanny state and the gotcha culture is partially paralyzed. The Tent Police figure no one would be stupid enough to be out in such nasty weather, etc.

Sly's statement, "illegal camping is frowned upon . . ." sounds a little strange when coming from a forum dedicated to the outdoors, from people who have a love of nature and a love of long trails, and from a group of dedicated backpackers. I would instead like to hear "All those places that used to be open to legal camping are slowly being restricted, so let's do something about it."

[Lone Wolf]

Is "stealth camping" setting up a shelter away from the trail where you are not allowed by the local authorities?


For me that's what it is and it usually means i'll just lay out on the ground cowboy style. no obvious camp. did a lot of it in the Whites. Baxter park too. it hurts nothing

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Since this has been discussed before, this thread and the last one have been merged. The new thread begins at posts 44.

[sasquatch2014]

You often hear this said and most peole use it to refer to speed or white vs blue blaze (or Yellow). I say it goes further than that to include stealth. when the book says no camping in section well what if my speed or my planned day with a stop in town has me still on the trail in that section when i decide to call it a day. Well it's my hike and when the day is done I'll decide if there is camping in that section or not. The same thing goes for the big fee areas people talk about.

Someone said this is up to us. But again I in one way mean this in a diffrent light. We have to really crank up the dial on the "Leave No Trace" practice when we stealth. a lot of the restrictions on the camping outside of desiganted areas was due to a poor practice of these principels and the damage that was occuring. This is only one of the reasons that I choose to go with a Hammock. When I am done other than my boot prints you will never know that I was there. This includes moving rocks that sometimes tenters will do to fix a spot. If you do put'em back and smile all day that no one will ever be the wiser to our wereabouts.

[sasquatch2014]

sorry for all the duplication of info while I was posting a reply the thread got megered and reading back most have it has been posted already so i just "ditto" it.

[Tipi Walter]

When did camping become illegal?

Ah, the sweet innocence of youth. You've got my vote!

I was stealth camping once in the middle of a town in some trees by a little creek. My tent was set up and it was a very cold morning so I left the campsite to sit in the sun and do some yoga. Far off in the distance a person saw me sitting in the field and called the police. Not long after two officers approached(I was meditating with my eyes closed), gently nudged me and said "Hey buddy! Hey buddy! Do you have ID?"

I took them back to my fine campsite and they checked out my tent and my info and one of them asked, "Do you know who's land this is?" I said no, do you? He said "No, I sure don't," and they both left. Have a good day.

[Kirby]

For me that's what it is and it usually means i'll just lay out on the ground cowboy style. no obvious camp. did a lot of it in the Whites. Baxter park too. it hurts nothing

The latter is illegal Wolf, I don't care what you personally do, but you should not be, with high respect for you, advocating something that is not allowed or legal.

Idon't care what you do in the Whites, the AMC has established a monopoly, leaving one with very few places to camp.

Kirby

[Lone Wolf]

Idon't care what you do in the Whites, the AMC has established a monopoly, leaving one with very few places to camp.

Kirby

no they haven't. there's plenty of places to camp. Baxter has the monopoly. very few places to camp. i lay down with the moose

[ki0eh]

On other boards at least, it seems the meaning of "stealth" camping has evolved from its origins to mean closer to "camping where not allowed."

Be aware there are a couple of kinds of "not allowed":

-On public land, such as the NPS corridor for the A.T. in the Cumberland Valley, if you're caught camping where you're not supposed to, the consequences are yours alone.

-On trails other than the A.T. which use private land, the landowner may not only prosecute YOU, he may close the trail too out of spite. This ruins the experience not only for you, but also for the dedicated volunteers who keep the trail open, and future hikers who would have preferred to walk in the woods and not the (usually longer) road around.

So, don't camp illegally, and DON'T camp illegally on private land!

[dixicritter]

I just scoured the AMC website and found no references to it being illegal. If you can provide me a link to their website that proves me wrong, I'll be more than happy to take appropriate action.

[EWS]

If fewer people were control freaks and/or inconsiderate we could have "right of way" rights.

[Tipi Walter]

Here is something I find relevant to the discussion:

[CoyoteWhips]

As L. Wolf said last month, "Define camping."

If you sit down at the side of a trail, have you then commenced camping? No, you're probably just resting. Nobody prohibits sitting on a rock and taking off your shoes for an hour.

What if you sit down and fall asleep, in the afternoon. Well, that's just resting and taking a nap.

What if you string up your hammock at noon and use it like a chair. Still just sitting and resting? What if you just lay back and take a nap. Are you camping or resting?

What if you did that at night, 200 yards off the trail? Maybe you're just taking a long break, eh?

I suppose most permit sellers define camping as just being some place that's not an approved campground during non-traffic hours and if you get caught, you have to pay a fine. But, really, how can I have moral objections to just being someplace? Especially if you're being someplace in such a low impact way that it'd take forensic science to show you've been there. Gotta be some place every minute.

As a flame retardant, though, I'll admit that I've never slept in a permit camping area without paying the fee. If people are taking responsibility for keeping an area maintained, why not help support the effort?

[Lone Wolf]

I'll admit that I've never slept in a permit camping area without paying the fee. If people are taking responsibility for keeping an area maintained, why not help support the effort?

me either. i've paid to camp in Baxter many times. other times i chose to lay on the ground away from designated camping areas. no harm. no foul

[Kirby]

I just scoured the AMC website and found no references to it being illegal. If you can provide me a link to their website that proves me wrong, I'll be more than happy to take appropriate action.

I was not talking about the Whites, I was talking about the Baxter State Park reference. A lot of hikers know that you are only allowed to camp in designated campsites, and Wolf was stating support for breaking that policy/law in his statement.

Kirby

[Lone Wolf]

I was not talking about the Whites, I was talking about the Baxter State Park reference. A lot of hikers know that you are only allowed to camp in designated campsites, and Wolf was stating support for breaking that policy/law in his statement.

Kirby

i didn't "camp". i just layed down like an animal. no tent, no fire, no cooking, no light. define "camping".

[Lone Wolf]

Wolf was stating support for breaking that policy/law in his statement.

Kirby

by the way, i ain't telling others what to do. just saying what i do and will continue to do if the opportunity presents itself :)

[Kirby]

by the way, i ain't telling others what to do. just saying what i do and will continue to do if the opportunity presents itself :)

Wolf:
By stating on a website such as this one, you are advocating support for it, and giving others the idea it is OK, which it is not. I don't care what you personally do, but advocating the breaking of a policy, publicly, in a venerable fund run of the funds the recieve from charging campers who stay at their actual campsites.

From the website:
"7. CAMPING: Camping is permitted only in authorized campgrounds and campsites May 15 through October 15 and December 1 through March 31. Tents may not be pitched in lean-to sites. Because campgrounds may be distant from the gatehouse, campers should check driving times and plan accordingly. Except as otherwise permitted by the Director, campers must register at the gatehouse no later than 8:30 P.M. The latest check-out time is 11:00 A.M., and the earliest check-in time is 1:00 P.M."

Kirby

[Kirby]

*In a venerable park run by the funds...

[Tipi Walter]

As L. Wolf said last month, "Define camping."

If you sit down at the side of a trail, have you then commenced camping? No, you're probably just resting. Nobody prohibits sitting on a rock and taking off your shoes for an hour.

What if you sit down and fall asleep, in the afternoon. Well, that's just resting and taking a nap.

What if you string up your hammock at noon and use it like a chair. Still just sitting and resting? What if you just lay back and take a nap. Are you camping or resting?

What if you did that at night, 200 yards off the trail? Maybe you're just taking a long break, eh?

I suppose most permit sellers define camping as just being some place that's not an approved campground during non-traffic hours and if you get caught, you have to pay a fine. But, really, how can I have moral objections to just being someplace? Especially if you're being someplace in such a low impact way that it'd take forensic science to show you've been there. Gotta be some place every minute.

As a flame retardant, though, I'll admit that I've never slept in a permit camping area without paying the fee. If people are taking responsibility for keeping an area maintained, why not help support the effort?

A good solution would be to take a lawyer with you when you go backpacking, can't be too safe, and with the proper forms and affadavits, he might be able to draw up a working definition of What Constitutes Camping, acceptable in most courts. When the Tent Police arrive and surround your camp, having a lawyer is also helpful as you can leave all your gear with him, run like a deer, and let him pay the fine, etc.

There are actually some people out there that will report an illegal backpacker to the Tent Police. Some of them might even be lurking here on the open forums . . . hmm . . . Meanwhile, while they collar the puny humble tent camper, a thousand RV motorhomes invade their Park, another thousand airline jets roar overhead, new highways are being built nearby their Park, and yet they hand out fines and worry about the low impact, the very low impact, backpacker.

[Tin Man]

So, don't camp illegally, and DON'T camp illegally on private land!

Especially in Texas where they shoot first and ask questions later.

[Lone Wolf]

Wolf:
By stating on a website such as this one, you are advocating support for it, and giving others the idea it is OK, which it is not. I don't care what you personally do, but advocating the breaking of a policy, publicly, in a venerable fund run of the funds the recieve from charging campers who stay at their actual campsites.

From the website:
"7. CAMPING: Camping is permitted only in authorized campgrounds and campsites May 15 through October 15 and December 1 through March 31. Tents may not be pitched in lean-to sites. Because campgrounds may be distant from the gatehouse, campers should check driving times and plan accordingly. Except as otherwise permitted by the Director, campers must register at the gatehouse no later than 8:30 P.M. The latest check-out time is 11:00 A.M., and the earliest check-in time is 1:00 P.M."

Kirby
define "CAMPING".

[EWS]

Camp where you feel safe, don't leave a mess or tear up crap, and pay if required. T' hell with the rest.

[JAK]

Gin a body meet a body
Comin thro' the glen,
Gin a body kiss a body,
Need the warld ken?

[dessertrat]

Maybe but not really. ;) When someone asks about stealth camping sites in the Whites or Smokies they really should be asking where they can camp illegally.

So if you pitch a shelter right as the sun goes down, and get up at first light and pack up, who is going to catch you camping illegally?

[EWS]

A good solution would be to take a lawyer with you when you go backpacking, can't be too safe, and with the proper forms and affadavits, he might be able to draw up a working definition of What Constitutes Camping, acceptable in most courts. When the Tent Police arrive and surround your camp, having a lawyer is also helpful as you can leave all your gear with him, run like a deer, and let him pay the fine, etc.

There are actually some people out there that will report an illegal backpacker to the Tent Police. Some of them might even be lurking here on the open forums . . . hmm . . . Meanwhile, while they collar the puny humble tent camper, a thousand RV motorhomes invade their Park, another thousand airline jets roar overhead, new highways are being built nearby their Park, and yet they hand out fines and worry about the low impact, the very low impact, backpacker.
Exactly.

Too many douches with no common sense running about.

[Lone Wolf]

Wolf:
By stating on a website such as this one, you are advocating support for it, and giving others the idea it is OK, which it is not. I don't care what you personally do, but advocating the breaking of a policy, publicly, in a venerable fund run of the funds the recieve from charging campers who stay at their actual campsites.


whatever that means. :rolleyes: you're getting all worked up kirby. 99.9 % of all sheeple hikers go by every rule, law, guideline, policy. that's good i guess :)

[nitewalker]

i belive in camping where you darn well please. if i decide to stay at a shelter, campsite where a fee is required well its my choice and i always respect the policy and pay[ my least favorite camping]... i prefer to do like wolf mentioned earlier about true cowboy camping where there will be no lite,fire, cooking etc[lnt always followed].. if you plan properly eat a couple hours be4 camp although it may lead to some night hiking which is my specialty. then just pull up a spot just off trail somewhere and kick back..

[Tipi Walter]

So if you pitch a shelter right as the sun goes down, and get up at first light and pack up, who is going to catch you camping illegally?

Generally, if you enter a treeline undetected, never build a fire, have a green tent or something not bright, uh, well, many good nights of camping are possible. When the call of the wild hits, whether you're 15 or 75, get your bedroll and knapsack cuz we're going camping!

And BTW, as an aside: About 150 years ago a group of Cheyenne Indians led by Dull Knife were told they couldn't camp in Colorado because of so much conflict with the encroaching new nonIndian settlers, so they humped down to Oklahoma where they were also told that camping is not permitted. So on a forced winter march back north, many of them died of exposure and starvation. The Tent Police really took their jobs seriously back then.

[Tin Man]

If you don't break a rule once in awhile, what are the rule police gonna do?

If you don't outsmart the rule police once in awhile, what will they do with all their free time?

If you break a rule (except the LNT rule) and no one else is in the woods, did anyone else notice or care?

[sasquatch2014]

If I string my hammock so that it is completly above water am i camping or would in some strange way this be considered boating?

[The Old Fhart]

Dixicritter-"I just scoured the AMC website and found no references to it being illegal. If you can provide me a link to their website that proves me wrong, I'll be more than happy to take appropriate action."The AMC doesn't own the land in the Whites (other than 1 acre at Madison Springs Hut) so they don't set the rules on camping. The USFS is the largest landowner and their regulations (http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/white_mountain/recreation/camping/backcountry_rules_2006-07.pdf) say no camping within 1/4 mile of a hut, no camping above tree line where trees are less than 8 feet tall, the 50 mile section of the Appalachian Trail from the summit of Mt. Moosilauke to the Connecticut River(NH/VT state line) except at shelters, plus many other spots listed in the linked brochure.

The State of NH also owns land around Lonesome Lake Hut, the summit of Mount Washington, and all of Franconia Ridge. There is absolutely no camping within the Franconia Notch State Park Boundary except for Lafayette Campground.

[Summit]

So if you pitch a shelter right as the sun goes down, and get up at first light and pack up, who is going to catch you camping illegally?
Too many people today assume they haven't broken the law unless they get caught. I'm not taking a position on whether any particular law/rule under discussion here is right or wrong, but people taking the law into their own hands and deciding they are above it is ALWAYS WRONG! :-?

[nitewalker]

The State of NH also owns land around Lonesome Lake Hut, the summit of Mount Washington, and all of Franconia Ridge. There is absolutely no camping within the Franconia Notch State Park Boundary except for Lafayette Campground.

i have found many places to camp within those areas. really cool spots im sure noone else has ever seen:D ........i guess i was stealth camping:welcome ..

[Tipi Walter]

If a solo backpacker blew himself up adjusting his Svea 123 while stealth camping, what would be the sound of his one remaining hand clapping?

[sasquatch2014]

Now Tipi lets not start talking about fires where they are not permitted in this same thread. Or did the blast extiguish all flames?

[Tipi Walter]

The AMC doesn't own the land in the Whites (other than 1 acre at Madison Springs Hut) so they don't set the rules on camping. The USFS is the largest landowner and their regulations (http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/white_mountain/recreation/camping/backcountry_rules_2006-07.pdf) say no camping within 1/4 mile of a hut, no camping above tree line where trees are less than 8 feet tall, the 50 mile section of the Appalachian Trail from the summit of Mt. Moosilauke to the Connecticut River(NH/VT state line) except at shelters, plus many other spots listed in the linked brochure.

The State of NH also owns land around Lonesome Lake Hut, the summit of Mount Washington, and all of Franconia Ridge. There is absolutely no camping within the Franconia Notch State Park Boundary except for Lafayette Campground.

Camping Rules for the Whites:

When approaching any hut from the left, and only the left, camping with gear made of cotton OR nylon is not allowed.

When approaching an open bald, each step AWAY from the bald is not allowed.

Backpackers should approach all trailheads with due caution and hop from rock to rock ONLY(in a clockwise direction).

If surrounded by trees taller than 8 feet, run. Get out as quickly as possible. Leaving strewn gear is ALLOWED in this circumstance.

ULers will NOT be tolerated, and people with external frame packs need to register 2 years in advance for a camping reservation.

With over 2 million acres of pristine forest, we have reserved 2 acres for tent camping. Most people can see the best of it by car on the Mt Washington road.

[Rain Man]

Too many people today assume they haven't broken the law unless they get caught ...

Gratuitous sanctimony should be illegal too. And you've been caught! ;)

Rain:sunMan

.

[dessertrat]

Too many people today assume they haven't broken the law unless they get caught. I'm not taking a position on whether any particular law/rule under discussion here is right or wrong, but people taking the law into their own hands and deciding they are above it is ALWAYS WRONG! :-?

Did you ever speed while driving a car? I see that as worse than camping responsibly, but illegally, on public land. (On private land, it is worse).

Unless you've never broken a motor vehicle law, I don't think you have much bidness comparing me to <bleep>!:eek:

And I'm a lawyer, too, so taking one with me is redundant!:banana

[dixicritter]

The AMC doesn't own the land in the Whites (other than 1 acre at Madison Springs Hut) so they don't set the rules on camping. The USFS is the largest landowner and their regulations (http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/white_mountain/recreation/camping/backcountry_rules_2006-07.pdf) say no camping within 1/4 mile of a hut, no camping above tree line where trees are less than 8 feet tall, the 50 mile section of the Appalachian Trail from the summit of Mt. Moosilauke to the Connecticut River(NH/VT state line) except at shelters, plus many other spots listed in the linked brochure.

The State of NH also owns land around Lonesome Lake Hut, the summit of Mount Washington, and all of Franconia Ridge. There is absolutely no camping within the Franconia Notch State Park Boundary except for Lafayette Campground.


Thank you! Finally someone gives a link to some information.

It does state no camping in the Whites within 1/4 mile of a hut, however it doesn't specifically say it is illegal if you are outside that 1/4 mile criteria to just lay down as long as you are not within 200 feet of the trail that is (which is also against the rules on the AT there by what I read). At least that's what I got from reading the provided link.


On another note... Folks let's leave the political references over in the political area where they belong please.

[Tipi Walter]

Did you ever speed while driving a car? I see that as worse than camping responsibly, but illegally, on public land. (On private land, it is worse).

Unless you've never broken a motor vehicle law, I don't think you have much bidness comparing me to <bleep>!:eek:

And I'm a lawyer, too, so taking one with me is redundant!:banana

I don't know, with pens flashing and forms flying, the two of you could tag team the Tent Police and they'd be grateful to leave you with just a warning.:)

[Summit]

Unless you've never broken a motor vehicle law, I don't think you have much bidness comparing me to <bleep>!:eek: I wasn't comparing anyone in particular. If you took it personal, then deal with your conscience! Does seeking to find fault with me ease your own guilt?

In a court of law, Mr. Lawyer, do you tell the judge that "unless you've never told even a little white lie, you have no right to impose a perjury verdict on someone?" Go ahead, try that tactic, it'll be good for your career! :D

My point . . . don't try to use two wrongs to make a right! Instead do the right thing as often as you possibly can. ;)

[Summit]

Gratuitous sanctimony should be illegal too. And you've been caught! ;)

Rain:sunMan

.I disagree completely!

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

[Sly]

I see all the AT veterans are still bastardizing the definition of stealth camping. Ray Jardine was the one that 1st coined the term in the PCT Thru-hiker Handbook and Beyond Backpacking. You can read it there.

[Lone Wolf]

I see all the AT veterans are still bastardizing the definition of stealth camping. Ray Jardine was the one that 1st coined the term in the PCT Thru-hiker Handbook and Beyond Backpacking. You can read it there.

big deal. my first trail name was Yankee Slackpacker. slackpacking back then meant nothing like it does today. back in the 80s i used "hiker trash" a lot. today everybody thinks they're hiker trash. not so.

[Sly]

Yeah and "thru-hiker" meant hiking the whole trail.

[warraghiyagey]

big deal. my first trail name was Yankee Slackpacker. slackpacking back then meant nothing like it does today. back in the 80s i used "hiker trash" a lot. today everybody thinks they're hiker trash. not so.
I'm not hiker trash? Poop.

[Sly]

LW were you the od coyote type slackpacker? Relaxed hiking, no hurry etc but with all your gear?

[Lone Wolf]

Yeah and "thru-hiker" meant hiking the whole trail.

if you slackpack you can't be a thru-hiker

[Sly]

I wonder why the AT folks like to change meaning to fit their needs?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

IMO, stealth camping is finding a site that is not general used that cannot be seen from a trail, using strict LNT methods and returning the site to its pristine condition when leaving. The legality of camping at a site has no significance in determining whether it is a stealth camp or not.Still how I feel about this.
..... I lay down with the mooseDoes Gypsy know you sleep with moose on the side? :D

[Dakota Dan]

Thread title: "Stealth Camping"...What is it?"

My definition: Doing whatever in order not to have to stay in a "Shelter" or a "Pay to stay Hut".

[Tipi Walter]

I see all the AT veterans are still bastardizing the definition of stealth camping. Ray Jardine was the one that 1st coined the term in the PCT Thru-hiker Handbook and Beyond Backpacking. You can read it there.

I started using the term "pumping nylon" years ago and now every newby backpacker comes up to me and says he's been pumping nylon all day. I told him to stop using it, I invented it, it's my series of words, dangit! Now I heard it's being used to describe DAYHIKING of all things, but my lawyers are now working with the Word Police and it will stop.

[Lone Wolf]

LW were you the od coyote type slackpacker? Relaxed hiking, no hurry etc but with all your gear?

exactly. it started out of Hot Springs. up to that point i was cranking out miles, day after day, katahdin on my mind. i was burning out and after 2 days off everything changed. no more goal. no more planning. just walk til i'm not enjoying it so much any more. made it to Gorham, NH and got off. no regrets

[Sly]

Thread title: "Stealth Camping"...What is it?"

My definition: Doing whatever in order not to have to stay in a "Shelter" or a "Pay to stay Hut".

Looks like FD not only merged threads but changed the title as well. The original title was Stealth Camping... get it right!

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Looks like FD not only merged threads but changed the title as well. The original title was Stealth Camping... get it right!Guilty as charged - lock me up, please -- somewhere far, far away from any keyboard - maybe with some trees, roacks and lots of legal stealth sites.....

[Sly]

Guilty as charged - lock me up, please -- somewhere far, far away from any keyboard - maybe with some trees, roacks and lots of legal stealth sites.....

LOL... no problem. :D

[The Old Fhart]

Dixicritter-".....however it doesn't specifically say it is illegal if you are outside that 1/4 mile criteria to just lay down as long as you are not within 200 feet of the trail that is (which is also against the rules on the AT there by what I read). At least that's what I got from reading the provided link."Correct. There are plenty of legal spots to camp in the WMNF but as the thread drift was to where it was illegal to camp, so that is what I mentioned and the provided link provides the long version of the answer as you noticed. It would help if every hiker was aware of those regulations.


Tipi Walter-"...With over 2 million acres of pristine forest, we have reserved 2 acres for tent camping...." Obviously quite incorrect. The reasons you are not allowed to camp in some areas isn't punitive but to, among other things, protect nature from people. Note there are also places where you can't walk. A lot of work has gone into the areas along Franconia Ridge and Monroe Flats just south of Lakes Of The Clouds Hut to build stone scree walls to try to keep hikers on the trail and not destroy endangered species of rare arboreal plants by trampling or camping on them.

The area around Lakes is habitat for the Dwarf Cinquefoil (Potentilla Robbinsiana) which was placed on the endangered species list in 1980. The report on the Dwarf Cinquefoil basically says(edited): "This plant is able to thrive in a harsh environment where few other species can survive. The species is limited in its distribution as it occupies a unique habitat within the alpine zone that is very restricted geographically. There are currently four populations of the species; three are considered viable (over 50 plants), Monroe Flats, Camel Patch transplant site, and the Franconia Ridge transplant site. One site, the natural Franconia Ridge site has a very limited range of habitat. This population continues to sustain itself. However, we believe it will never reach the 50 plants needed to be considered viable due to limited suitable habitat." The efforts to protect this plant have been successful and it now thrives on Monroe Flats.

This is just one example why hikers who are ignorant of the reasons for the regulations should not ignore them but there are many other reasons depending on the locale, etc. If you just want to have a knee-jerk reaction to carefully thought out rules & regulations and automatically assume that 'the man' is out to get you, then you become part of the problem rather than part of the solution. At least in the area of trying to educate hikers and protect the trail and nature, the AMC does a good job. What would help is for all hikers be responsible and not try to see what they can get away with with out getting caught.

[neo]

It doesn't mean illegal camping, unless you use the archaic or obsolete definition of stealth. The term has been twisted by AT enthusiasts! It was originally coined by Ray Jardine as a method to avoid Sierra bears and to have a more enjoyable hike by avoiding established campsites. To camp off trail as unobtrusive as possible in an otherwise legal camping area. See definition 3

Main Entry: stealth
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'stelth
Etymology: Middle English stelthe; akin to Old English stelan to steal
1 a archaic : THEFT b obsolete : something stolen
2 : the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly <the state moves by stealth to gather information -- Nat Hentoff>
3 : the state of being furtive or unobtrusive
4 : an aircraft-design characteristic consisting of oblique angular construction and avoidance of vertical surfaces that is intended to produce a very weak radar return

On the other hand is illegal camping, which is self explanatory.


for me its some time illegle,but always out of site
i love it:cool: neo

its hard to see this set up off the trail

http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=1683&catid=member&imageuser=11


this my guide gear 12 x 12 camo tarp
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=97247

my claytor jungle hammock
http://www.mosquitohammock.com/junglehammock.html

love this combo:cool: neo

[ki0eh]

I see all the AT veterans are still bastardizing the definition of stealth camping. Ray Jardine was the one that 1st coined the term in the PCT Thru-hiker Handbook and Beyond Backpacking. You can read it there.

Not to denigrate anyone's accomplishment, but terms mean what people think they mean, that's how language evolves. "Brownie points" to most people mean the opposite of how the term started in the late 1800's, used to mean demerits issued to railroad workers.

[dixicritter]

Correct. There are plenty of legal spots to camp in the WMNF but as the thread drift was to where it was illegal to camp, so that is what I mentioned and the provided link provides the long version of the answer as you noticed. It would help if every hiker was aware of those regulations.



I got that. What I don't understand is why so often posters here make these blanket statements about it being illegal to camp in the WMNF for example when in fact that's not the case at all. Sure there are some rules about where you can and can not camp.

I do appreciate the link you provided it was educational. I wish more people would do that.

[Tipi Walter]

I got that. What I don't understand is why so often posters here make these blanket statements about it being illegal to camp in the WMNF for example when in fact that's not the case at all. Sure there are some rules about where you can and can not camp.

I do appreciate the link you provided it was educational. I wish more people would do that.

The Old Fhart obviously knows the White Mountains well, better than I ever will. My beef isn't with the protection of the flora from human foot traffic, I believe groups like AMC and others are doing great work and are needed to do more good work. My recent posts try to point out the irony between banning backpackers from tenting at certain places like Mt Washington while at the same time there is no talk of banning the auto road or the parking lots or the cog railway. Does not the road and the rail and the scores of casual visitors they bring also adversely affect the landscape and flora? And there seems to be a growing trend to limit tenting and backpacking with increasing fees and regulations while at the same time encouraging car tourists to visit these places unbridled.

Sure, there are a lot of places in the White Mountains to tent camp, but when I hear of the places that don't allow camping, I see it as part of this sprawling trend of development and restrictions.

[Sly]

Ban the Cog. In lieu of that, moon it! :D

[Frosty]

More and more stealth camping will occur when fee hiking, camping permits, use regulations and other backpacking restrictions continue to increase and probably eventually flourish.That's not stealth camping. That's called stealing.



In my peanut sized brain, stealth camping is not simply bushwacking to a place hidden and setting up camp, that's just regular backpacking and camping whether you're 10 feet off the trail or a mile. Stealth camping is staying at a place that is probably not allowed by one authority or another, whether a private landowner, a State Park, the NPS, or a dozen other land controlling agencies."Many land owners all access to their property for hiking, but do not want camping. People who violate this trust are the reason some landowners post woods that used to be accessible.

[Frosty]

Looks like FD not only merged threads but changed the title as well. The original title was Stealth Camping... get it right!I don't understand this merging of threads. Very seldom are two threads identical. Each addresses different aspects of a topic.

What's next? Having one megathread for every thread about cooking? One thread for gear?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I don't understand this merging of threads. Very seldom are two threads identical. Each addresses different aspects of a topic.

What's next? Having one megathread for every thread about cooking? One thread for gear?Don't tempt me :D.

Seriously, stealth camping had been discussed at length on the froum recently. There is no need for everyone to come in and retype what they wrote in the original thread.

[The Old Fhart]

Tipi Walter-"My recent posts try to point out the irony between banning backpackers from tenting at certain places like Mt Washington while at the same time there is no talk of banning the auto road or the parking lots or the cog railway. Does not the road and the rail and the scores of casual visitors they bring also adversely affect the landscape and flora? And there seems to be a growing trend to limit tenting and backpacking with increasing fees and regulations while at the same time encouraging car tourists to visit these places unbridled."
First, you are comparing apples and oranges. When you say “…banning backpackers from tenting at certain places like Mt Washington while at the same time there is no talk of banning the auto road or the parking lots or the cog railway...”, that makes no sense. The Mount Washington Auto Road is not in the WMNF but on private land. The Cog Railroad is on land chartered to it by the State of NH in the 1800s and the summit of Mt. Washington is a State Park, not WMNF. Whether you walk up, ride the Cog, or drive up, once you set foot on WMNF land, the same rules apply to all. If any one drove a car down to Monroe Flats then they would “also adversely affect the landscape and flora” of the WMNF but until they enters the WMNF, there is no foul. There is no irony in banning something that will destroy public property.

Second, when you say: “there seems to be a growing trend to limit tenting and backpacking with increasing fees and regulations while at the same time encouraging car tourists to visit these places unbridled….”, that isn’t correct. The Auto Road (http://www.mountwashingtonautoroad.com/Page-19.html) and the Cog Railroad (http://www.mountwashington.com/cog/) have been there since the mid 1800’s. There is no nebulous “they” that are trying to limit hikers while at the same time encouraging tourists. The WMNF regulates the public land they administer following Federal laws. If you wish to see the complete WMNF forest Plan dated 2005 (http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/white_mountain/projects/forest_plan/plan_docs.html), click on the link.

As to the private businesses (Cog and Auto Road) promoting tourist to visit, that is literally ‘their business’. As a point of interest, there are over 200,000 visitors to the summit/year, approximately 60,000 of those hikers. Of those hikers, maybe 500 could be thru hikers. As Spock would say: “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”:D

[Sly]

Not to denigrate anyone's accomplishment, but terms mean what people think they mean, that's how language evolves. "Brownie points" to most people mean the opposite of how the term started in the late 1800's, used to mean demerits issued to railroad workers.

Oh, well. Thanks for that. So when to the 2000-milers that lie get to be known as stealth purist? :p

[Sudoku]

In my personal opinion, "stealth camping" has fallen into the same ranks as all the other old favorites: "hiker midnight", "more protein!", "cowboy camping" and the rest (you know them all by heart if you've been out there for just a month).

It doesn't mean anything anymore, people just say it before even thinking about saying it. I'm inclined to agree with Tipi Walter (mostly)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tipi Walter In my peanut sized brain, stealth camping is not simply bushwacking to a place hidden and setting up camp, that's just regular backpacking and camping whether you're 10 feet off the trail or a mile.


You're *in the woods* already, you have to set up camp. You do it out of sight of the trail. That's not stealth camping, that's just CAMPING. That's how you camp... in the woods. I'm not sure how Jardine wanted to use it, but it doesn't make sense in the Appalachians at least, anymore.

A lot of people do use it only to describe camping where you aren't supposed to camp - which is stupid, camping illegally. A lot of people use it to describe camping in an unestablished site even if they're 10 feet from the trail - that's even dumber, how can that possibly be "stealth" anything!

I'm no saint: sometimes it was just too hard to get to the shelter or to find a place that was off the trail, remotely flat, and not on fragile land. But... at least I didn't use stupid hiker clichés while doing it!

- Sudoku

[johnny quest]

Especially in Texas where they shoot first and ask questions later.

that was rather an ignorant and all-encompassing statement to make about texas. my experience has been in this fine state that people are very friendly and generous. and i dont know of anyone who shoots first and asks questions later. we ask...then we shoot.

[Tin Man]

that was rather an ignorant and all-encompassing statement to make about texas. my experience has been in this fine state that people are very friendly and generous. and i dont know of anyone who shoots first and asks questions later. we ask...then we shoot.

No offense intended. I was referring to another thread about the dude who shot two thieves on his property.

[johnny quest]

No offense intended. I was referring to another thread about the dude who shot two thieves on his property.

oh, mr. horn i think his name was. my new hero! thats a great 911 call. and to all those who think differently...that he was looking to kill for sh#$ts and giggles....listen to the whole call.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Fellows, take the discussion of the shooting to the non-AT forum (thread already in progress)

[Tin Man]

Fellows, take the discussion of the shooting to the non-AT forum (thread already in progress)

My apologies to She-Dino. Keep up the good work.

[Dirtygaiters]

Stealth camping in general is a good way to avoid passing crowds and to better follow LNT ethic (i.e. by not being visible to other hikers on the trail, the wild seems more devoid of human traces).

However, stealth camping is sometimes done illegally. For instance, as has been mentioned, there are many millions of square miles of national and state forests in this country where there are laws against camping outside of designated campsites. These laws were originally passed for a very good reason: to limit and localize the destruction of pristine forest by careless campers. However, for those of us who area able to camp "invisibly" and refrain from attracting attention, we ask ourselves, do these no-camping laws apply to us? If someone stealth camps in a hidden corner of the woods by lying down for 8 hours in a bivy sack, then there is no destruction to the area, just a body-sized area of flattened grass or forest duff, which happens when any large animal lays down to sleep anyway. And don't say that a law is a law end of story. There's more to it than that. A law is only as good as its enforcement and not all laws are even enforced. I'm sure we've all heard of the "ridiculous laws" of the country (for instance in Pennsylvania it's illegal to sing in the bathtub, and in Maine, shotguns are required to be taken to a church in the event of a native american attack). That's not to say that the no-camping laws are ridiculous. Often they aren't, as I pointed out. But here is the fuzzy part for some people: if I know exactly why a law exists (i.e. preventing undue damage to backcountry sites, preventing forest fires, preventing people from getting lost in the backcountry), and I break the law without doing any of the things the law was made to prevent me doing (that is, I camp illegally but I don't start a forest fire and I don't do any damage to the backcountry), then am I really doing wrong? I think not. Some may disagree.

On stealth camping in general, a lot of people don't do it (where legal) simply because they don't know how to use a compass. I'm always a little amused when I see a tent pitched smack dab in the middle of the trail (hello there!). Using a compass is not too hard of a skill, and a really useful one to have in the wilderness if you're following a trail or not (it's one of the "ten essentials" for a reason). I've walked off trail for many miles to find springs before, just using a little dial wrist compass, and then found my way back to the trail no problem. Especially if you have a trail map, and know what the trail looks like on the terrain, it's not that hard. To each his own, but I say you're missing out on quite a lot if you just limit yourself to the little strip within 20' on either side of the trail.

[Dirtygaiters]

First, you are comparing apples and oranges. When you say “…banning backpackers from tenting at certain places like Mt Washington while at the same time there is no talk of banning the auto road or the parking lots or the cog railway...”, that makes no sense. The Mount Washington Auto Road is not in the WMNF but on private land. The Cog Railroad is on land chartered to it by the State of NH in the 1800s and the summit of Mt. Washington is a State Park, not WMNF. Whether you walk up, ride the Cog, or drive up, once you set foot on WMNF land, the same rules apply to all. If any one drove a car down to Monroe Flats then they would “also adversely affect the landscape and flora” of the WMNF but until they enters the WMNF, there is no foul. There is no irony in banning something that will destroy public property.


Old Fhart, your arguments are a little disturbing to me. In post #104, you intimate that it is wrong for backpackers to question laws and cite an example of a good reason for a no walking/camping regulation in a few select areas. Now you're saying that the reason behind the law doesn't matter as much as the fact that we blindly follow the law and not think of the reason behind it ("If any one drove a car down to Monroe Flats then they would “also adversely affect the landscape and flora” of the WMNF but until they enters the WMNF, there is no foul."). If I'm making you sound a little confused, then it is for a reason.

[Skidsteer]

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

All that is required for evil to prevail is good men.

[Tin Man]

All that is required for evil to prevail is good men.

All that is evil is not good.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

All that is evil, is.

[Tin Man]

What is, is.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

What?.....

[Tin Man]

?.........

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

..............

[Skidsteer]

Good point.

[Skidsteer]

...?...

[The Old Fhart]

DirtyGaiters-"Old Fhart, your arguments are a little disturbing to me. In post #104, you intimate that it is wrong for backpackers to question laws and cite an example of a good reason for a no walking/camping regulation in a few select areas. Now you're saying that the reason behind the law doesn't matter as much as the fact that we blindly follow the law and not think of the reason behind it ("If any one drove a car down to Monroe Flats then they would “also adversely affect the landscape and flora” of the WMNF but until they enters the WMNF, there is no foul."). If I'm making you sound a little confused, then it is for a reason."

Ah, you are putting your ‘spin’ on what I actually wrote and meant. I never said “that it is wrong for backpackers to question laws” or that they should “blindly follow the law and not think of the reason behind it.” What I said, and I thought it was clear, is that hikers are generally ignorant of the reasons for a particular law because they don’t have intimate knowledge of the local area and if they do break the law then they are doing it blindly. Your interpretation is almost exactly opposite of what I said. As to the car driving to Monroe Flats, I made it clear that the laws would apply equally to all, not just thru hikers.

In almost every post where hikers complain about the Whites they invariably blame the AMC for trail conditions or signage when it is the USFS that ‘owns’ the land and is responsible. Most hikers never check the signs that indicate who maintain the trail they are walking on and quite often don’t carry maps or guidebooks that contain the information. They actually are blindly following what they assume is the A.T. and I have seen many who are way off course. Actually, most don’t know (and some don’t care) they are breaking any number of laws because they never took the time to check the laws, rules, and regulations for the area they are hiking through. That is one reason thru hikers think the Whites have more rules and regulations than other sections of the trail. In the Whites there is more enforcement even though there are many other areas where camping is equally heavily restricted, like Maryland.

So, DirtyGaiters, when you say: “your arguments are a little disturbing to me”, it is probably because you are among the confused and aren’t familiar with the examples I used or you feel that the examples I used are the only ones and don’t realize that every mile of the A.T. is heavily regulated in yet a different way, like Baxter. Try asking a maintainer for the section you’re hiking thru for the reasons for the local rules-enlightenment is good. And finally, why do you feel that you, or any other hiker, should question laws regarding the A.T. instead of assuming that the ATC, NPS, NF, Etc., has spent years fine tuning these laws and regulations over the years to provide the best protection for ALL involved, not just to annoy thru hikers.

P.S.- no one on the A.T. is required to sing in a bath tub but it could happen.:D

[Frosty]

There are actually some people out there that will report an illegal backpacker to the Tent Police. Some of them might even be lurking here on the open forums . . . hmm . . . Meanwhile, while they collar the puny humble tent camper, a thousand RV motorhomes invade their Park, another thousand airline jets roar overhead, new highways are being built nearby their Park, and yet they hand out fines and worry about the low impact, the very low impact, backpacker.Ah, yes, the old "Why is it wrong for me to steal a $100 camera from the mall when other people are stealing $40,000 cars."

If you camp illegally, you have no gripe coming if you get caught.

Don't try to pretend it isn't illegal because other folks are legally camped with RVs (and who ARE paying to camp).

You want wilderness set aside, pay for its use. You pay for your gear, clothing, food, transportation to the trailhead, why are some folks so adamant that it is okay to rip off the caretakers of our recreational lands?

[SGT Rock]

Here is something I find relevant to the discussion:
Your picture reminds me of some discussions I had with FS people a month ago. We were talking about the destruction of trail by ATVs where they were not supposed to be going and how they were tearing up barriers to get onto hiking trail. The guy I was talking to was pissed he was the only guy going up there and trying to police it up - he said that there were many people in the FS that spend most of their "policing" time going around and citing people for the day use fees and such while ignoring the obvious violations of laws and destruction of property.

[EWS]

If you live your life obeying and in fear of the law, your life will be quite unfulfilled.

Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly ~ Dali Lama

[Summit]

I must remind myself that I interact at WhiteBlaze for backpacking tips, trail information, and gear recommendations/experiences, NOT morality! ;) :p :)

[Summit]

Ah, yes, the old "Why is it wrong for me to steal a $100 camera from the mall when other people are stealing $40,000 cars."
Things like this have contributed to the demize of high morals in our society:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/wellsjs/Misc/napster.jpg

[Summit]

If you live your life obeying and in fear of the law, your life will be quite unfulfilled.

Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly ~ Dali LamaHmmm, I don't think I'd leave you alone with my children for five minutes! :eek:

[CoyoteWhips]

All that is evil is not good.

There is nothing good or evil, except we make it so.


If you live your life obeying and in fear of the law, your life will be quite unfulfilled.

Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly ~ Dali Lama

Oh, that rascally outlaw! China has made it is illegal to reincarnate without a permit. Stealth Karma.

It's interesting the folks who tend to focus on the negative extremes of stealth camping when in most cases it's a benign practice with the least impact.

The rules of stealth camping that I try to follow (Probably from Allan E. Stokell) (http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/stealthcamping):
Do not camp on improved, fenced or posted land.
Enter your site unobserved.
Avoid areas with cans and litter that might indicate a party zone.
Don't cook where you sleep.
Pack out by dawn.
Leave no trace.For rule one, if local land management has prohibited camping, I take that as posted and don't camp there. But, ya know, when I gotta get out the orange spade, I'm still going off trail and what I'm doing there has more impact than sleeping. Stealth pooping.

[Old Hillwalker]

http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/leaflets/wildcamp.html

The Scottish rules on camping are one of the reasons why I have spent parts of nine summers hiking the wilds of Western Scotland. Wish we had them here.

[EWS]

http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/leaflets/wildcamp.html

The Scottish rules on camping are one of the reasons why I have spent parts of nine summers hiking the wilds of Western Scotland. Wish we had them here.Exactly, common sense, and I love Europe's right of way.

[Tipi Walter]

Ah, yes, the old "Why is it wrong for me to steal a $100 camera from the mall when other people are stealing $40,000 cars."

If you camp illegally, you have no gripe coming if you get caught.

Don't try to pretend it isn't illegal because other folks are legally camped with RVs (and who ARE paying to camp).

You want wilderness set aside, pay for its use. You pay for your gear, clothing, food, transportation to the trailhead, why are some folks so adamant that it is okay to rip off the caretakers of our recreational lands?

Stealth campers stealing? The only stealing I see going on is the taking away of land from simple backpacking and tent camping thru fees, fines, restrictions, designated camping zones and regulations.

The so-called caretakers of our recreational lands are the same ones encouraging helicopter tourist fly-overs, near constant auto tourism with unneeded polluting road access(Mt Washington/Cades Cove), the building of adjacent "scenic" highways and the constant motorcycle noise racket that comes with them, hiking fees and nightly tenting stipends, and the shutting off of vast acreage to legal camping(Smokies).

In the Smokies it is not done to protect the landscape, if this were true the car pollution from interior roads would be addressed(along with the air pollution being the worst in any National Park), but limiting camping sites is simply done, in my crazed opinion, to keep tabs on tent campers. When you have 500,000 acres and 900 miles of trails like in the Smokies, who cares where you camp?

I like Hillwalker's drift, the Scottish Outdoor Access Code has it right. I guess for the last 150,000 years we as humans camped out every night without fees or permits or regulations, there was a whole lot of stealth camping going on. For all those years, if you liked a place you were camping you fought to keep it, you REALLY fought to keep it.

[MOWGLI]

In the Smokies it is not done to protect the landscape, if this were true the car pollution from interior roads would be addressed(along with the air pollution being the worst in any National Park), but limiting camping sites is simply done, in my crazed opinion, to keep tabs on tent campers. When you have 500,000 acres and 900 miles of trails like in the Smokies, who cares where you camp?


I think it is at least partially done to protect the landscape. As well as keep tabs on tent campers (for SAR purposes) and provide bear cables to protect the bears from the hikers.

I have also heard that the trail mileage is closer to 800 miles these days. Down due to closures.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/leaflets/wildcamp.html

The Scottish rules on camping are one of the reasons why I have spent parts of nine summers hiking the wilds of Western Scotland. Wish we had them here.Wow - the ATC would close shop before they would endorse that. I agree with Hillwalker in wishing we had these rules here.

[celt]

Actually, most don’t know (and some don’t care) they are breaking any number of laws because they never took the time to check the laws, rules, and regulations for the area they are hiking through.

The first principal of Leave No Trace is plan ahead and prepare and shouldn't the first goal of "stealth camping" be to leave no trace?

This has probably already been batted around but in the Whites the term "Stealth Camping" is too often used to describe camping, legally and illegally, in heavily impacted but unmaintained sites right next to the trail. Dumb. As a former AMC caretaker I don't know of any WMNF officials who spent time looking for illegal stealth campers who truely met the definition of stealthy.

[Lone Wolf]

sleeping isn't camping

[Tin Man]

So if we are stealth sleeping in one place and stealth cooking in another, where do we camp? ;)

[Summit]

There is nothing good or evil, except we make it so.Again I have to completely, utterly disagree. That is modern day relativism. There are absolutes as to what is evil and what is good. There may be some actions that are borderline or debatable, but I don't think for a minute that murder, theft, rape, etc. are neither evil nor good, but what we choose to make of them!

[Tipi Walter]

So if we are stealth sleeping in one place and stealth cooking in another, where do we camp? ;)

You could set up a tent or a hammock and ponder the day's events all thru the night. 'Tain't actually camping. Call it "Sheltered Pondering."

[Summit]

Unless I am wrong, "stealth camping" is all about spending the night in a spot that does not show signs of human traffic previously, and leaving it the way you found it (yeah, flattened grass will straighten back up). It speaks to nothing of all the rubbish arguements that have been injected here about legal/illegal areas to camp. Those belong in a thread entitled "Do you feel you are above the law?" :D

[Lone Wolf]

i lay down and sleep where the hell i want. camping is something different

[Tin Man]

Wikipedia appears to support the notion that camping can occur with or without a shelter. So, camping is just spending the night outdoors it would seem.

from wikipedia...

Camping is an outdoor recreational (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreation) activity.
The participants, known as campers, get away from civilization and enjoy nature while spending one or more nights, usually at a campsite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campsite). Camping may involve the use of a tent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tent), a primitive structure, or no shelter at all.

[EWS]

I'm still perplexed at why this bothers people so. Are some people really that anal about following the law?

[Tin Man]

I'm still perplexed at why this bothers people so. Are some people really that anal about following the law?

some are, some aren't, some are just bored

[Summit]

Are some people really that anal about following the law?Are you saying you wouldn't mind if I dropped by your crib while you're away . . . let's say "stealth camping" ( :D ) and help myself to anything of yours that I feel I need more than you do?

[EWS]

Are you saying you wouldn't mind if I dropped by your crib while you're away . . . let's say &quot;stealth camping&quot; ( :D ) and help myself to anything of yours that I feel I need more than you do?

Some people lack common sense I suppose. Sleeping is stealing :rolleyes: There's another thread about robbery you can refer too.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

some are, some aren't, some are just bored::: Dino peeks out window to see if TinMan is peeking in :D :::

[Tin Man]

I am bored of being bored, so I shall go pack my pack in preparation for my weekend hike. Looks like I will be leaving the brass monkeys home...brrr.

[Summit]

Some people lack common sense I suppose. Sleeping is stealing :rolleyes: There's another thread about robbery you can refer too.No, when you say "Are some people really that anal about following the law?" I have to ask then where do you draw the line? Are you the great arbitrator who says which law(s) is OK to break and which isn't? I don't agree with all the laws of this land, but if break the ones I disagree with and the general populace breaks the laws they disagree with, the result is anarchy. Watch out for those who disagree with laws concerning traffic lights! :eek:

[Lone Wolf]

I'm still perplexed at why this bothers people so. Are some people really that anal about following the law?

yes they are. plus they're jealous. they haven't the stones to go against the grain. sheeple. :)

[CoyoteWhips]

Are you saying you wouldn't mind if I dropped by your crib while you're away . . . let's say "stealth camping" ( :D ) and help myself to anything of yours that I feel I need more than you do?

Your zeal at defending the letter of the law seems very Pharisee-ish.

If you were caught unexpectedly in a blizzard without provisions and nearing hypothermia, would you break the lock of a cabin for shelter or continue traveling, hoping to find a more legal shelter?

What if you were in the same situation with a pregnant woman?

[EWS]

No, when you say "Are some people really that anal about following the law?" I have to ask then where do you draw the line? Are you the great arbitrator who says which law(s) is OK to break and which isn't? I don't agree with all the laws of this land, but if break the ones I disagree with and the general populace breaks the laws they disagree with, the result is anarchy. Watch out for those who disagree with laws concerning traffic lights! :eek:

Yeah, think of people going wild and actually seeing what is off the corridors so many people tread. People camping far away from the clans trying to simulate a getaway experience with a dozen other people. Anarchy!

The government has drawn plenty of lines for the lowest common denominators.

[Tha Wookie]

Exactly, common sense, and I love Europe's right of way.


Me too!

SCOTLAND THE FREE!!!!!

[Tha Wookie]

i lay down and sleep where the hell i want. camping is something different

you just say that cause you carry around that big ass frying pan
;)

[Tha Wookie]

i slept on the side of I-5 in the bushes because i was caught by nightfall in a military base walking along the road. I heard they had been putting people in jail for trespassing, and they had all their land wired. The bushes were sage, so it was still pleasant despite the harrowing noise. And Island Mama was with me too.

My feeling is that you can camp anywhere you want if you can go undetected (no or little trace). Private property is an illusion. Respect is universal.

[Dirtygaiters]

You want wilderness set aside, pay for its use. You pay for your gear, clothing, food, transportation to the trailhead, why are some folks so adamant that it is okay to rip off the caretakers of our recreational lands?

As if these caretakers have the right to make a profit off of our national heritage? And don't say they're not making a profit, just because they find ways to spend all their "earnings". There is no need for half of the paved roads, parking lots, handicapped-accessible trails with railings, flushing toilets, air conditioned visitor centers, gift shops and established fee campgrounds with RV hook-ups in any of "our recreational lands".


Ah, you are putting your ‘spin’ on what I actually wrote and meant. I never said “that it is wrong for backpackers to question laws” or that they should “blindly follow the law and not think of the reason behind it.” What I said, and I thought it was clear, is that hikers are generally ignorant of the reasons for a particular law because they don’t have intimate knowledge of the local area and if they do break the law then they are doing it blindly. Your interpretation is almost exactly opposite of what I said. As to the car driving to Monroe Flats, I made it clear that the laws would apply equally to all, not just thru hikers.[quote]

I put no words in your mouth when I said that you have simultaneous contrasting viewpoints. I made conclusions from what you said and based on how you were so quick to denounce illegal stealth camping in the Whites as faulty and worthless and to immediately dump on anyone who happens to step off the AT in the Whites as being ignorant and most likely acting out of a feeling much like teenage angst. Based on those points and how you now say so confidently that each and every rule and regulation along the AT has been carefully thought out, it seems to me quite believable that what you are really saying here is that it is childish and wrong to question laws in the backcountry.

In your quote about Monroe flats, you said that until a car enters WMNF, even if it is in a fragile habitat like Monroe Flats, there is no foul. This is what it's like to blindly follow a law, when you don't believe it's wrong to follow the law's theory, but rather believe that the law itself is the correct rule to follow.

I'm a little disappointed that you think so little of hikers to say that most of them are ignorant about local regulations. I have rarely camp anywhere, stealth especially, without finding out as much as I could about the area, what is and isn't allowed, and why those rules are in place. However, I suppose that park officials can make rules up whenever they choose, decide not to post them and most hikers would never find out that they are "supposed to" be following all these pedantic rules.

[quote]
So, DirtyGaiters, when you say: “your arguments are a little disturbing to me”, it is probably because you are among the confused [quote]
Probably not the best move to make conclusions about my character...

[quote]
and aren’t familiar with the examples I used or you feel that the examples I used are the only ones and don’t realize that every mile of the A.T. is heavily regulated in yet a different way, like Baxter. Try asking a maintainer for the section you’re hiking thru for the reasons for the local rules-enlightenment is good.

Though I have never thru hiked the AT, I have done long hikes through multiple and differently regulated areas. Frankly, I'd think that for an AT thru hiker to try to memorize and keep in mind all these different and obscure regulations that apparently no one knows about would distract from the enjoyment of hiking. It is likely easy for you to discount that statement since you seem to have seen a fair number of ignorant thru hikers that made mistakes or otherwise don't follw LNT ethics too well. However, remember we were talking about stealth camping not too long ago? I'd say that most stealth campers do follow LNT ethics as good as or better than the most well behaved thrus. They don't want to get caught, and whether they know how to identify Potentilla species or not, my guess is that there's a difference in terms of impact for illegal stealth campers in the Whites and your ordinary, irgnorant thru hikers who haven't taken the time to learn all the regulations.


And finally, why do you feel that you, or any other hiker, should question laws regarding the A.T. instead of assuming that the ATC, NPS, NF, Etc., has spent years fine tuning these laws and regulations over the years to provide the best protection for ALL involved, not just to annoy thru hikers.

There's a lot of things I could say but since you have not felt it necessary to add a question mark at the end of your thought, I think you don't want to hear what I have to say in response so I won't waste your time talking about civil disobedience, philosophy, democracy or how condescending it sounds to be told a law is in place for your own protection.

[EWS]

Private property is an illusion. Respect is universal.
Yeap, that is what it is about.

[nitewalker]

stealth camping= anywhere anytime, camping away from all human visibility-lnt always]. this could occur at legal camping areas and nonlegal areas as well.....i love it when someone passes by my stealth spot unknowingly..... priceless!!!!! its amazing how many people will pass by if you just kickback, watch and listen from afar........peace , nitewalker

[Summit]

Your zeal at defending the letter of the law seems very Pharisee-ish.

If you were caught unexpectedly in a blizzard without provisions and nearing hypothermia, would you break the lock of a cabin for shelter or continue traveling, hoping to find a more legal shelter?

What if you were in the same situation with a pregnant woman?No, it's biblical based, as are the laws of this country and I'm certainly not ashamed to state that. On your other "straw men" hypothetical situations, as someone has already said, common sense should prevail! For example, the police are very lenient on traffic law violations of a driver where a life-or-death emergency is involved (as long as others lives are not endangered) ;)

[Tin Man]

Common sense also says I don't have to camp with the sheeple if I don't want to. ;)

[EWS]

No, it's biblical based, as are the laws of this country and I'm certainly not ashamed to state that. On your other "straw men" hypothetical situations, as someone has already said, common sense should prevail! For example, the police are very lenient on traffic law violations of a driver where a life-or-death emergency is involved (as long as others lives are not endangered) ;)

I said common sense three times in regards to this, the last time directly to you, and you disagreed with me.


Too many douches with no common sense running about.

Exactly, common sense, and I love Europe's right of way.

Some people lack common sense I suppose. Sleeping is stealing :rolleyes: There's another thread about robbery you can refer too.

Probably want to rethink that mythology thing, it could be clouding reasonable thought.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Fellows, this thread is about stealth camping - not about what you guys think of each other. Let's keep it about stealth camping.

[EWS]

Ain't gonna be camping near no one I choose not 2. Gonna be "Stealthin".

Good gramher and nite!

[Tipi Walter]

i slept on the side of I-5 in the bushes because i was caught by nightfall in a military base walking along the road. I heard they had been putting people in jail for trespassing, and they had all their land wired. The bushes were sage, so it was still pleasant despite the harrowing noise. And Island Mama was with me too.

My feeling is that you can camp anywhere you want if you can go undetected (no or little trace). Private property is an illusion. Respect is universal.

Great post from someone who seems to understand the reality of stealth camping. I can't remember all the many places I've camped off the side of some interstate, behind a rural church, under a parked 18 wheeler near an airport, behind a motel on a small sidewalk, in a tent at a reststop on some nondescript interstate, on a farmer's high cow pasture, the list goes on.

What's the statute of limitations on stealth camping? If I knew, heck, I'd list every place in detail. Just to give the newbies some pointers . . .:)

The difference between the rail-riding hobos and me? I have better gear. That's about it.

[The Old Fhart]

DirtyGaiters-“I put no words in your mouth when I said that you have simultaneous contrasting viewpoints. I made conclusions from what you said"… Wow! In a single sentence you contradict yourself and admit that you “make conclusions” which is distorting what I said. Try quoting me for a change if you don’t want to continually put words in my mouth.

…“and based on how you were so quick to denounce illegal stealth camping in the Whites as faulty and worthless”” there you go again. I never said that. Learn to quote what I actually said.

However, like all responsible hikers, I don't condone illegal camping, stealth or otherwise.

…”and to immediately dump on anyone who happens to step off the AT in the Whites as being ignorant and most likely acting out of a feeling much like teenage angst.” I mentioned a couple of sensitive areas where you are required to stay on the trail to protect nature. There are many places where you can explore to your hearts content.

There is a difference between acting out of ignorance and being ignorant but here the distinction is somewhat blurred.;) Again you have misrepresented what I actually said. Do you have feelings "much like teenage angst" or why did you pull that hackneyed phrase out of you hat (or wherever).


…In your quote about Monroe flats, you said that until a car enters WMNF, even if it is in a fragile habitat like Monroe Flats, there is no foul. Again, I never said that. What I said is:”… once you set foot on WMNF land, the same rules apply to all. If any one drove a car down to Monroe Flats then they would “also adversely affect the landscape and flora” of the WMNF but until they enters the WMNF, there is no foul.” The fact that you don’t seem to realize that the entire area around Monroe Flats and the 1.5 miles of boulder fields to the parking lot on the summit IS WMNF seems to have escaped you. As soon as a car goes beyond the parking lot, the driver is in violation(and the car is probably totaled ;) ), until then, they aren’t “in a fragile habitat like Monroe Flats.”

I'm a little disappointed that you think so little of hikers to say that most of them are ignorant about local regulations. I have rarely camp anywhere, stealth especially, without finding out as much as I could about the area, what is and isn't allowed, and why those rules are in place.You seem to revel in your lack of knowledge of the Whites. Do you know more about other areas? Oh, and if you do, do you ignore their rules as well?:-?


...However, I suppose that park officials can make rules up whenever they choose, decide not to post them and most hikers would never find out that they are "supposed to" be following all these pedantic rules. Why is it that you believe that the dedicated people trying to protect our public lands, the ATC, trail maintainers, and everyone else is trying to make your life difficult or out to get you? The rules for the WMNF were in a link I previously posted and if you had shown any interest in becoming familiar with the area(as you claim), you would have read the material.


…Frankly, I'd think that for an AT thru hiker to try to memorize and keep in mind all these different and obscure regulations that apparently no one knows about would distract from the enjoyment of hiking. No one has to memorize anything, that’s why they make guidebooks, maps, the ALDHA Companion, signs, etc., that contain the necessary information. If you choose not to read, or to ignore the info, don’t blame others for your shortcomings.

…I'd say that most stealth campers do follow LNT ethics as good as or better than the most well behaved thrus. They don't want to get caught… I guess you missed the part of LNT that requires you to act legally and responsibly. When you say They don't want to get caught, you are admitting that it is illegal. People aren't concerned about getting caught for something that is legal.


… and whether they know how to identify Potentilla species or not, my guess is that there's a difference in terms of impact for illegal stealth campers in the Whites and your ordinary, irgnorant(SIC) thru hikers who haven't taken the time to learn all the regulations. The Dwarf Cinquefoil became endangered because of hikers who were ignorant of its existence, trampling it. Knowing how to identify it and obeying the regulations to keep out of sensitive areas is the way to protect it.

…so I won't waste your time talking about civil disobedience, philosophy, democracy or how condescending it sounds to be told a law is in place for your own protection. Destroying property, not paying for services, ignoring laws made to protect the trail and nature are simple criminal acts. None of these are done with any philosophical, moral, or interest in the higher good in mind. What you describe as “democracy” others would define as lawlessness.

[JAK]

Me too!

SCOTLAND THE FREE!!!!!I think you meant SCOTLAND THE BRAVE.

[JAK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZuq_mMDg20

[JAK]

Unless by chance you mean "The Wee Free" or something of that sort.

I like L.Wolf's approach. If you are sleeping, are you neccessarily camping? I've sometimes hiked 'til dark then just crashed off to the side of the trail, not even pitching the ponchotarp. Just blue foam pad, sleeping bag, bivy bag maybe. Is that any harder on the trail than hiking through the night? As for the money, there are many good places to spend money, and we make trespasses of one form or another each and every day. I am not an anarchist, but I think some things are left to free men to decide for themselves how such rules should be interpreted, or dealt with, and what matters should concern us most.

[Summit]

Probably want to rethink that mythology thing, it could be clouding reasonable thought.Yeah, the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing! 1 Cor 1:18. ;)

[JAK]

If you owe something to both the king and the pauper, who should you pay first?

[whitefoot_hp]

most camping regulations are the one size fits all type. the forest admins, for their own convienence, simply prefer most people to camp in the same spots. maintenence is easier, and impact is funneled and not spread out.

you are not 'irresponsible' if you prefer to camp outside the one size fits all policy. you are just a hiker who is not happy about camping in place a, so you camp in place b. the impact in either place is the same, depending on your level of impact.

[Dirtygaiters]

Wow! In a single sentence you contradict yourself and admit that you “make conclusions” which is distorting what I said....There is a fine line between iterpreting someone's words and outright saying that that person said a certain thing which they didn't say, but whatever. You win (if this was ever a contest?). I hope it puts a big fat smile on your face to hand out twenty five dollars cash for the privelege to enter our national parks for a week and then even more cash for the privelege to camp in the select highly impacted rural sites that are far enough away from all the paved roads, street lights and convenience stores--convenience stores and roads that were paid for by the very same fees you would have just paid. Ditto for the other wild areas of our country like your belovedly regulated WMNF. I really hope that your fees helps pay for even more paved roads, gift shops, parking lots, visitor centers, street lights, and more vigilant enforcement of the increasingly stricter rules forbidding backcountry use so that one day enough people can visit our national parks and forests to make them look just like city parks except more developed and more permanently damaged. That's a really peach of a dream right there. Yeah; so I hope it feels good to be right all the time. Peace!

[sasquatch2014]

I have often been told that I am incorrigible and all this talk of stealth camping just makes me want to spend less nights in designated spots and more nights on the sly. I would love to see a thread with people telling of their best stealth night experiences.

[Tipi Walter]

There is a fine line between iterpreting someone's words and outright saying that that person said a certain thing which they didn't say, but whatever. You win (if this was ever a contest?). I hope it puts a big fat smile on your face to hand out twenty five dollars cash for the privelege to enter our national parks for a week and then even more cash for the privelege to camp in the select highly impacted rural sites that are far enough away from all the paved roads, street lights and convenience stores--convenience stores and roads that were paid for by the very same fees you would have just paid. Ditto for the other wild areas of our country like your belovedly regulated WMNF. I really hope that your fees helps pay for even more paved roads, gift shops, parking lots, visitor centers, street lights, and more vigilant enforcement of the increasingly stricter rules forbidding backcountry use so that one day enough people can visit our national parks and forests to make them look just like city parks except more developed and more permanently damaged. That's a really peach of a dream right there. Yeah; so I hope it feels good to be right all the time. Peace!

Nice job. I've been trying to say the same exact thing here for the last two days.

[Summit]

I said common sense three times in regards to this, the last time directly to you, and you disagreed with me.My disagreement with you was regarding "Are some people really that anal about following the law?" I did not address your use of "common sense" at all. Don't get things mixed up!

[doggiebag]

There is a fine line between iterpreting someone's words and outright saying that that person said a certain thing which they didn't say, but whatever. You win (if this was ever a contest?). I hope it puts a big fat smile on your face to hand out twenty five dollars cash for the privelege to enter our national parks for a week and then even more cash for the privelege to camp in the select highly impacted rural sites that are far enough away from all the paved roads, street lights and convenience stores--convenience stores and roads that were paid for by the very same fees you would have just paid. Ditto for the other wild areas of our country like your belovedly regulated WMNF. I really hope that your fees helps pay for even more paved roads, gift shops, parking lots, visitor centers, street lights, and more vigilant enforcement of the increasingly stricter rules forbidding backcountry use so that one day enough people can visit our national parks and forests to make them look just like city parks except more developed and more permanently damaged. That's a really peach of a dream right there. Yeah; so I hope it feels good to be right all the time. Peace!
Bravo! Excellent point.

[Summit]

Common sense also says I don't have to camp with the sheeple if I don't want to. ;)I haven't seen anyone here advocate that everyone should sleep in herds. I'm fine with people "stealth camping" where not prohibited. The "rub" here is about those who think they're above the law and can camp where regulations prohibit, obviously a sign of a self-centered mentality.

[Johnny Thunder]

You know what Im gonna do
Im gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac Eldorado convertible
Hot pink, with whale skin hubcaps
And all leather cow interior
And big brown baby seal eyes for head lights (yeah)
And Im gonna drive in that baby at 115 miles per hour
Gettin' 1 mile per gallon,
Sucking down Quarter Pounder cheeseburgers from McDonalds
In the old fashioned non-biodegradable styrofoam containers
And when Im done sucking down those greeseball burgers
Im gonna wipe my mouth with the American flag
And then Im gonna toss the styrofoam containers right out the side
And there aint a ******* thing anybody can do about it
You know why, because weve got the bombs, thats why
2 words, nuclear ******* weapons, OK?
Russia, Germany, Romania, they can have all the democracy they want
They can have a big democracy cakewalk
Right through the middle of Tiananmen Square
and it wont make a lick of difference
Because weve got the bombs, OK?
John Wayne's not dead, hes frozen, and as soon as we find a cure for cancer
Were gonna thaw out the duke and hes gonna be pretty pissed off
You know why,
Have you ever taken a cold shower, well multiply that by 15 million times
Thats how pissed off the dukes gonna be!
I'm gonna get the Duke, and John Cassavetes,
and Lee Marvin, and Sam Peckinpah, and a case of whiskey,
and drive down to Texas and say.....

Denis Leary

(Jak, I never got it until now)

[JAK]

There is a fine line between iterpreting someone's words and outright saying that that person said a certain thing which they didn't say, but whatever. You win (if this was ever a contest?). I hope it puts a big fat smile on your face to hand out twenty five dollars cash for the privelege to enter our national parks for a week and then even more cash for the privelege to camp in the select highly impacted rural sites that are far enough away from all the paved roads, street lights and convenience stores--convenience stores and roads that were paid for by the very same fees you would have just paid. Ditto for the other wild areas of our country like your belovedly regulated WMNF. I really hope that your fees helps pay for even more paved roads, gift shops, parking lots, visitor centers, street lights, and more vigilant enforcement of the increasingly stricter rules forbidding backcountry use so that one day enough people can visit our national parks and forests to make them look just like city parks except more developed and more permanently damaged. That's a really peach of a dream right there. Yeah; so I hope it feels good to be right all the time. Peace!Bravo. I hear you. It's like some people want the Fundy Footpath left as it is, and some people want the Fundy Trail Parkway. But then some people want to cut access off from the Fundy Footpath types unless they are willing to pay for the development for the Fundy Trail Parkway types. It is bad enough being compelled to pay for something you don't want. It is even worse when it means supporting the destruction of that which you love. It is rather insulting to get slandered on top of all that, but that is the least of our worries.

[dessertrat]

Am I the only one who thinks you don't need to "fund" the national parks with pavement and roads and electricity? Apparently not, as someone has finally articulated it. We are better off with minimal spending on parks and policing them, rather than the maximum. Let them be wild enough, and only people who really like the wilderness will go out there and use them.

[Tipi Walter]

Am I the only one who thinks you don't need to "fund" the national parks with pavement and roads and electricity? Apparently not, as someone has finally articulated it. We are better off with minimal spending on parks and policing them, rather than the maximum. Let them be wild enough, and only people who really like the wilderness will go out there and use them.

We're all on the same page here, but it won't last long. Get ready . . .

[Tin Man]

Am I the only one who thinks you don't need to "fund" the national parks with pavement and roads and electricity? Apparently not, as someone has finally articulated it. We are better off with minimal spending on parks and policing them, rather than the maximum. Let them be wild enough, and only people who really like the wilderness will go out there and use them.

I would hate to see the AT paved, but carpet would be nice. Electricity, cable and broadband access at all the shelters would be really cool.

[canerunner]

I don't agree with all the laws of this land, but if break the ones I disagree with and the general populace breaks the laws they disagree with, the result is anarchy.

I understand where you're coming from, but you really have to separate things a little more correctly. There is right and wrong, and we both pretty much understand what those are. Our scripture gives us that guidance.

There is also legal and illegal, and those don't necessarily equate to right and wrong. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's right, and the converse it true as well. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's wrong. Morality and legality are two totally separate issues.

Anarchy is when the general populace ignores a legal rule of law. Anarchy is what is going on in Somalia. There is no governmental control over the populace or the territory.

What we're talking about with stealth camping illegally falls more into the realm of civil disobedience. Note that I said when it's done illegally. Not all stealth camping is done illegally.

Stealth camping, from my perspective and understanding, is when one (or a small group) seeks to camp as unobtrusively as possible. It has nothing to do with breaking the law. I've practiced stealth camping for over 30 years, and didn't ever hear it called that until the last few years.

I prefer to find my campsite somewhere away from where others have or are camping, and practice LNT almost to the point of being anal about it. IF I build a fire, someone would have to be shown exactly where I built it to be able to discover the remains when I leave.

[JAK]

Put another way, if stealth camping is anarchy then a little anarchy is a good thing.

[JAK]

Put another way, if you paint me into a corner, I will walk on it.

[Summit]

I understand where you're coming from, but you really have to separate things a little more correctly. There is right and wrong, and we both pretty much understand what those are. Our scripture gives us that guidance.

There is also legal and illegal, and those don't necessarily equate to right and wrong. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's right, and the converse it true as well. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's wrong. Morality and legality are two totally separate issues.

Anarchy is when the general populace ignores a legal rule of law. Anarchy is what is going on in Somalia. There is no governmental control over the populace or the territory.

What we're talking about with stealth camping illegally falls more into the realm of civil disobedience. Note that I said when it's done illegally. Not all stealth camping is done illegally.

Stealth camping, from my perspective and understanding, is when one (or a small group) seeks to camp as unobtrusively as possible. It has nothing to do with breaking the law. I've practiced stealth camping for over 30 years, and didn't ever hear it called that until the last few years.

I prefer to find my campsite somewhere away from where others have or are camping, and practice LNT almost to the point of being anal about it. IF I build a fire, someone would have to be shown exactly where I built it to be able to discover the remains when I leave.I think if you view all my posts on this subject, we agree totally. I've said I have no problem whatever with stealth camping unless it's done where camping is prohibited. Blessings to you! :)

[Summit]

My feeling is that you can camp anywhere you want if you can go undetected (no or little trace). Private property is an illusion. Respect is universal.I'd be careful about that. I've found "mountain folks" to be extremely friendly and will usually offer you the shirt off their backs. They are very hospitable to a point. But if you "mess with them" by, for instance, going against their "private property - keep out - no trespassing" postings, if you do it anyway they just might STEALTH BURY YOU! :eek:

[astrogirl]

Damn straight, and there are good reasons for that. First and foremost among them is not getting lost. Hell, we're constantly being told that you don't need a compass on the AT, and that "all you have to do is follow the blazes." I've had some disconcerting experiences stepping a bit too far off the trail just to pee. Do you really want to have to resort to a compass to find your way back to the trail after de-camping in the morning?

Yep. I left my tent near Mad Tom Notch in VT for a late night nature call...and then I couldn't retrace my steps. After a lot of squinting into the flashlight beam and panicked stamping around in the brush...my beam hit a white blaze and I followed the AT back to the turn off for my site.

The stream method is a good one. :D

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Maybe some on the AT have so few trail skills that they should not consdier stealth camping. I sometimes forget that not all hikers know basic woodland skills like how to use a compass and many hike the AT without them. For goodness sake, please don't ever try to hike any wilderness trails.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Another reminder that this thread is about stealth camping - not about what you guys think about each other.

[Tipi Walter]

Yep. I left my tent near Mad Tom Notch in VT for a late night nature call...and then I couldn't retrace my steps. After a lot of squinting into the flashlight beam and panicked stamping around in the brush...my beam hit a white blaze and I followed the AT back to the turn off for my site.

The stream method is a good one. :D

You don't have to be a newb to do this. I did nearly the same thing last winter on a high ridge where I went about 100 yards away from the tent at night, the wind was whipping hard, and I had a bit of trouble finding the trail and then the tent. I wasn't lost, not even confused, just a little . . . misdirected.

[warraghiyagey]

Sorry FD, and Summit, and all.
Peace:)

[Zero_Six]

Stealth camping is about minimum impact and limited visibility. I like to reduce my signiture by using earthtone colors so I am less visible to other hikers across the next ridge. I agree w the hammock mention they are great for not leaving a signiture when you leave.

[ed bell]

You don't have to be a newb to do this. I did nearly the same thing last winter on a high ridge where I went about 100 yards away from the tent at night, the wind was whipping hard, and I had a bit of trouble finding the trail and then the tent. I wasn't lost, not even confused, just a little . . . misdirected.The night before Easter in either 2000 or 2001 me and my buddy had made camp well off the Chattoga River Trail / river. After an evening of good food and drink, we decided to explore a bit. Light rain/fog was really not all that bad. We enjoyed checking out some feeder creeks, the banks of the Chattoga, ect. Well, we decided it was time to go back to camp. We arrived at the spot to leave the trail to hit the camp and walked off trail. Long story short, it started to rain hard and we couldn't find the stupid tents. Walked in circles for a LONG time. Finally found home after 2-3 hours. We had missed the site by less than 20 yards quite a few times. I can't express the relief when I saw my green fly through the rain and fog. New rules went into place that night. That will never happen to me again. Having said that, I love to tell this story to others, so I really am glad it happened.:):sun

[Summit]

Sorry FD, and Summit, and all.
Peace:)Likewise, please accept my apology, warraghiyagey. :)

[warraghiyagey]

Likewise, please accept my apology, warraghiyagey. :)

The fact that even my best trail friends stumble through the spelling of my name makes yours even more sincere. Thanks. Peace.:)

[Dakota Dan]

that's what i do. but define camping

Here is a Philadelphia Lawyers definition....(not mine)....

"the use of park land for living accommodation purposes such as sleeping activities, or making preparations to sleep (including the laying down of bedding for the purpose [468 U.S. 288, 291] of sleeping), or storing personal belongings, or making any fire, or using any tents or . . . other structure . . . for sleeping or doing any digging or earth breaking or carrying on cooking activities."

[warraghiyagey]

It's not a surprise that the barristers could suck the fun out of camping too.

[Dakota Dan]

I was told this will be some of the language on the ticket if/when caught for stealth camping or camping outside a designated area. Next stop, Federal Court.

[sasquatch2014]

I am glad that the trail doesn't go through the city of Brotherly Love.

[warraghiyagey]

I am glad that the trail doesn't go through the city of Brotherly Love.
Aren't we all.:)

[Tipi Walter]

I am glad that the trail doesn't go through the city of Brotherly Love.

What used to be prime camping land . . . for a select few . . . and for the lucky ones . . . where the water was cold and clean . . . and the grassy hills open and fresh . . . has become, 300 years later, Philadelphia.

[EWS]

I’ve had little worry about stealth camping in the wilderness; it is mainly a concern near towns and roads. Nevertheless, some of the same basic principles can be used to avoid being detected wherever.

1) Ask if you can camp; some people are pretty nice others are dicks, you never know. But if you find someone who tells you no, they’ll probably be looking for you later on, cause they think they’re vigilantes.
2) Ask yourself do you feel safe in the area. If not keep on moving till you find an area you do.
3) Always head up hill from a road or trail, people are much less likely to spot someone above them, especially in a car. Most people are starring at the pretty little creek or river below the road.
4) Use water ways as trails to get back into the woods, just follow a creek till it rounds a bend and puts the road out of sight. If it is raining, get some elevation above it so a flash flood doesn’t sweep you away.
5) Do you really need to set you tent up? Probably not, and if you do wait till after dark to do it.
6) Cook before the sun goes down.
7) Set up in the woods, not on the edge to enjoy the view, where you’re in plain sight.
8) Don’t use a light at night. You eyes will adjust well enough, and you should just crash out anyways, so you can get moving at first light.
9) Bridges and culverts provide great shelter and rarely will somebody look under them unless they have the same thing in mind. If you’re in a culvert or under a small bridge watch the weather. The top part of larger bridges also have ledge where you can sleep.
10) If some approaches you be polite and talk to them like a normal person, ask them how they’re doing, invite them to sit down, offer them a token snack. Most of the time people will leave you alone after they realize you’re not a vagrant or on the run from the law.
11) Use common sense.

[Dakota Dan]

Aren't we all.:)


I'll 2nd that since you beat me to the 1st:)

[Dakota Dan]

. . . has become, 300 years later, Philadelphia.

we call it "Kill-adelphia" :eek:

[Chainsaw 08]

I wonder why the AT folks like to change meaning to fit their needs?Because such is the nature of language. ALL language. It evolves.

If you doubt me, you can tell someone that you're happy and want a cigarette by saying "Gosh, I'm gay; I'd love have a fag."

[napster]

Iffin ye aint comfortable to hike a mile or less off the main AT trail on some sort of ole loggin rd or trail then. stay with the blazes
N......

[Chainsaw 08]

yes they are. plus they're jealous. they haven't the stones to go against the grain. sheeple. :)Bollocks. Rebellion is the new conformity. Go to the movies, turn on the TV, listen to the radio, and all you hear is messages that you should rebel, be an individual, break the rules, all that crap. Walk in any high school in America and you're gonna see 25 kids all telling themselves how much they "go against the grain."

The irony -- if there is one true rebel in that classroom, one ballsy adventurer who doesn't give a crap what you think of him and who is just following his own code -- it's likely to be the Korean kid in the front row getting straight As and wearing a tie to school.


Truth is a lot of people don't have the stones to not break the rules.

[warraghiyagey]

What used to be prime camping land . . . for a select few . . . and for the lucky ones . . . where the water was cold and clean . . . and the grassy hills open and fresh . . . has become, 300 years later, Philadelphia.
Well, it does have proximity to the garden state which used to have one of the most diverse ecosystems in the world. Now it has Trenton, Elizabeth, Newark, JC, AC, and kind of killadelphia.

[Dirtygaiters]

8)Don’t use a light at night. You eyes will adjust well enough, and you should just crash out anyways, so you can get moving at first light.


Alternatively, a dim red or orange LED light provides just the right amount of compensation for what the moon and stars can't do, especially on cloudy nights far from city lights, while still being a rather unobtrusive and unobvious flashlight.

[Ashman]

Bollocks. Rebellion is the new conformity. Go to the movies, turn on the TV, listen to the radio, and all you hear is messages that you should rebel, be an individual, break the rules, all that crap. Walk in any high school in America and you're gonna see 25 kids all telling themselves how much they "go against the grain."

The irony -- if there is one true rebel in that classroom, one ballsy adventurer who doesn't give a crap what you think of him and who is just following his own code -- it's likely to be the Korean kid in the front row getting straight As and wearing a tie to school.


Truth is a lot of people don't have the stones to not break the rules.

Crowd: "YES YES We are all individuals!"
One Guy: "I'm Not"

[Lone Wolf]

Bollocks. Rebellion is the new conformity. Go to the movies, turn on the TV, listen to the radio, and all you hear is messages that you should rebel, be an individual, break the rules, all that crap. Walk in any high school in America and you're gonna see 25 kids all telling themselves how much they "go against the grain."

The irony -- if there is one true rebel in that classroom, one ballsy adventurer who doesn't give a crap what you think of him and who is just following his own code -- it's likely to be the Korean kid in the front row getting straight As and wearing a tie to school.


Truth is a lot of people don't have the stones to not break the rules.
you're FOS :D

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

::: Dino seen with head spinning around :::
:confused: Not breaking the rules is the new way to break the rules :confused:

[EWS]

Rebel against society... get lots of tattoos, weird piercings, nappy hair, quit shaving or only do so in odd patches, look unemployable, be angry about whatever state our nation and/or the world is in, then head to fivebucks coffee and think that venti means large in Italian.

[JAK]

EWS, I liked your basic principles list. When I stealth hike I try and think like a deer. Or at least what I think a deer thinks like. Or at least a deer that likes to read and drink tea. Not using a tent does help. Also I used to always want to camp near water. Now I find there is more flexibility if I don't. When I stealth camp it is usually not to avoid detection but to find a warmer spot in the woods on the side of a hill. You don't always know which spots are warmer until after dark. It's nice to have some privacy also, especially when you are just crashing on the ground with a blue foam pad and sleeping bag, bivy optional, ponchotarp optional. Many people find that weird, so it is better to simply avoid them, I think. I will have my supper at a stream or some place with a nice view, then steal away at dusk to sleep, like other animals do. The biggest problem I have with rules and regulations is that they don't usually leave much room for thinking.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

What JAK is talking about - cooking and cleaning up near water and then moving on to a spot away from water and well off the beaten path to sleep is exactly what stealth camping used to mean. All of this was done with LNT in mind. Sleeping on fresh duff at a carefully chosen site is way better than sleeping on a wooden shelf in a box even with the box's windbreak and roof.

[MOWGLI]

My goal with every campsite is to leave it in such a way that no one would guess that I slept there last night. Not always possible, but it's something I challenge myself to do out on the trail.

[Rain Man]

... Sleeping on fresh duff at a carefully chosen site is way better than sleeping on a wooden shelf in a box even with the box's windbreak and roof.

That conclusion sure as heck depends on the perspective chosen to look from.

Rain:sunMan

.

[The Old Fhart]

Dirtygaiters-“I hope it puts a big fat smile on your face to hand out twenty five dollars cash for the privelege to enter our national parks for a week and then even more cash for the privelege to camp in the select highly impacted rural sites that are far enough away from all the paved roads, street lights and convenience stores--convenience stores and roads that were paid for by the very same fees you would have just paid.”

Are you trying to say in your pointless and error riddled post that you feel that you have the right to screw everyone along the trail who is there to protect and manage our natural resources by not paying legitimate fees? Those fees also go to maintenance, trail building, signs so hikers know where to go, etc. If everyone breaks the law just because they are paranoid that ‘the man’ is out to screw them, the trails will deteriorate. Anyone who says they are illegally camping on public land as a form of civil disobedience is just FOS. The only reason people do it is they are so egocentric that they feel that everyone on and along the trail owes them and should cater to them because they are thru hikers. It is truly sad that there are so many who have so little regard for the A.T. and our natural resources that they go out of their way to destroy them and then try to convince others they are doing it for the common good. That is just pure BS and they know it.

As to your feigned concern about my paying legitimate fees to visit national parks, etc., I bought a lifetime pass. Anyone visiting a national park, forest, etc., is required to pay all applicable fees and to not do so is something only a common criminal would do. This is no different than buying an Amtrak ticket to ride the train-no ticket, no ride-a real simple concept.


Dirtygaiters-“I really hope that your fees helps pay for even more paved roads, gift shops, parking lots, visitor centers, street lights, and more vigilant enforcement of the increasingly stricter rules forbidding backcountry use so that one day enough people can visit our national parks and forests to make them look just like city parks except more developed and more permanently damaged. That's a really peach of a dream right there.”
Truly laughable diatribe if it wasn’t so pathetically sad. First, these are National Forests not Dirtygaiter forests. The forests are for all, not just there for you to pillage. Every organization and group overseeing and maintaining the trail tells you not to camp illegally. The Appalachian Trail Conservancy (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.795277/k.B993/Permits_Fees_and_Regulations.htm) states:


National Park Service rules and regulations. Listed below is a summary of the rules and regulations set and enforced by the National Park Service for the NPS-acquired A.T. corridor—approximately 500 miles along the length of the Trail.
•Camping shall follow policies established by local authorities or shall be limited to established overnight shelters and tenting areas.
•Leave No Trace
-Plan ahead and prepare. When you don't have the facts about where you are going or what to expect, you're more likely to cause problems in the backcountry.
-Travel and camp on durable surfaces. Stay on the trail and don't cut switchbacks. Keep off fragile trailside areas, such as alpine zones. Camp in designated spots.
You claim to follow Leave No Trace principles but you have no idea what you are talking about. If you were to take the time to actually read and study the LNT site (http://www.lnt.org/programs/lnt7/durable.html) you would find the specifically state to obey camping rule, something you choose to ignore.


Choosing a Campsite in High-Use Areas: Avoid camping close to water and trails and select a site which is not visible to others. Even in popular areas the sense of solitude can be enhanced by screening campsites and choosing an out-of-the-way site. Camping away from the water's edge also allows access routes for wild life. Be sure to obey regulations related to campsite selection.
ALDHA (http://www.aldha.org/ethics.htm)is an organization that represents the long distance hikers interest and in their Endangered Services Campaign statement also tell you to obey the rules:


Let’s face it. Without public support there would be no trail. Agreements with private landowners, arrangements with local, state and federal government agencies, compacts with the public over the stewardship role we all play when we lace up those boots . . . all of that will evaporate if the public continues to become disgusted with our worst behavior.
The trail will wither and vanish without public backing. And without the trail there will be no long-distance hiking community called ALDHA. It’s simply that simple……………All of these incidents show hiker disrespect for the rights of property owners and other hikers. Present trends will continue to take their toll unless we begin to act responsibly.

Every reference you find will say the same thing- obeying the rules is necessary to protect the trail. As to the Whites, this quote from U Penn sums it up real well.


Motivated by either frugality or dedication to the principle of free wilderness recreation, hikers have created a number of unauthorized trails and obviously impacted "stealth" sites in the White Mountains. Proper dispersed sites shouldn't be obvious or used twice, but then, dispersed camping is only effective in low-use areas – certainly not on a trail as popular as the AT in the Whites.

It is very interesting that the same hikers that condone or advocate illegal camping on the A.T. as their God-given right or a form of civil disobedience are the first to complain about ATV or other illegal uses of our natural areas. This not only is hypocritical but shows that their only interest is not protest or civil disobedience but in raping the landscape they ‘claim’ they love. On the day they stand up for an ATVers civil disobedience use the A.T. to make mud holes, I’ll take notice, but until then they need to grow up and admit what they are doing is a crime against the trail and for self gratification.

No one who advocates illegal camping can give any reason to their illegal behavior other than “the man is out to get me”, “I’m free to camp any place I please”, or some other paranoid antisocial drivel. Most people grow out of this phase when they turn 12.

[Dirtygaiters]

Old Fhart:
You already "won". No need to kick me while I'm down, OK?

[dessertrat]

EWS, I liked your basic principles list. When I stealth hike I try and think like a deer. Or at least what I think a deer thinks like. Or at least a deer that likes to read and drink tea. Not using a tent does help. Also I used to always want to camp near water. Now I find there is more flexibility if I don't. When I stealth camp it is usually not to avoid detection but to find a warmer spot in the woods on the side of a hill. You don't always know which spots are warmer until after dark. It's nice to have some privacy also, especially when you are just crashing on the ground with a blue foam pad and sleeping bag, bivy optional, ponchotarp optional. Many people find that weird, so it is better to simply avoid them, I think. I will have my supper at a stream or some place with a nice view, then steal away at dusk to sleep, like other animals do. The biggest problem I have with rules and regulations is that they don't usually leave much room for thinking.

Camping near water has a definite upside, obviously, but with the downside that it's usually not very scenic near the water (except, sometimes, the water itself) and it is usually far more buggy near the water.

I now prefer grabbing two or three liters of water late in the day and then getting up high on a summit for the end of the day, as long as it isn't too windy.

[emerald]

I believe more than a few people here talking about leave no trace haven't done their homework or are making up their own rules.

Consider for a moment this notion of camping along streams. Seems to me it's not generally advisable and in some locations is specifically prohibited in order to protect water quality.

It would make more sense were one really interested in minimizing one's impact to stop for water and move on rather than camp by the water source.

I can provide examples where camping near water is specifically prohibited, but for people who think they are a law unto themselves entitled to defile the drinking water of others, there's not much point to providing links.

Everyone knows links and restrictions on the personal freedoms of individual thru-hikers are only applicable when applied to the sheeple.:rolleyes:

The entire A.T. is not the national forests of the south with which some people here are familiar. The resources to be protected and their volunerability varies considerably and, yes, sometimes trumps your individual freedoms.

[rickb]

It would make more sense were one really interested in minimizing one's impact to stop for water and move on rather than camp by the water source.

Most dispersed camping along streams has zero impact on one's fellow hikers' water quality.

That said, readily accessible and attractive campsites attract over use, and impinge on the aesthetics afforded to hikers who simply want a feeling of wildness in the woods. And one finds plenty of those along stream and at trail junctions.

Remember, 99.9% of all hikers and 99.8% of all thru hikers get the willies if they camp out of site of a well marked trail.

If you are camping far enough away from the trial not t be seen by fellow hikers (legally, of course) and practice good LNT principals you can rest assured that you are not poisoning anyone.

My theory, any way.

[emerald]

Go here (http://www.fws.gov/northeast/cinquefo.html) for links and photos of Robbins' cinquefoil provided USFWS. The efforts involved with its recovery were not at all insignificant. I have no idea how much expense was incurred, but it was no doubt considerable.

Hikers contemplating hikes through areas with which they are unfamiliar --we all are to one extent or another -- should endeavor to do everything reasonably possible to become informed about the terrain through which they pass and leave it as they found it for those who follow them.

[rickb]

No one who advocates illegal camping can give any reason to their illegal behavior other than “the man is out to get me”, “I’m free to camp any place I please”, or some other paranoid antisocial drivel. Most people grow out of this phase when they turn 12.

Agreed.

There is a corollary you sometimes find in the Whites, however: The guy with good intentions who will tell other hikers that there are more encompassing prohibitions in the WMNF than actually exist. With bluster, certainty and confident moral authority.

You know, the one who mistakenly says USFS regulations require that you must always camp 200' from the AT, and never near next to water. I even had a guy tell me to put out my fire once in a Wilderness Area!

[emerald]

Most dispersed camping along streams has zero impact on one's fellow hikers' water quality.

Can you provide a link to information provided by someone who's a recognized authority on this subject?

[saimyoji]

I stealth "camped" on the AT today. I was somewhere between BOK and Lehigh Gap, on the North Trail (yes, I'm a blue blazer, bite me). It was windy as hell and cold and it felt great. I fired up my stove, cooked up some coffee, ate my lunch, then spread out my pad and bag and had a nap. An hour or so later I woke up and kept going in the direction I was going. Nobody saw me (or if they did they didn't care I was there), nobody could tell I had been there. And I don't care if what I did was illegal or not (it was not). It was fun and nobody got hurt.

I did wear lots of orange though. :cool:

[rickb]

I don't have a link for you.

Interestingly, you might remember that it was Guy Waterman who wrote and spoke about how important it was for those protecting the trail to communicate EXACTLTY WHY certain practices were important-- and that blanket prohibitions were not enough.

That why educating the public on the consequences of leaving the trail over Franconia Ridge was so important to him, in ways that went beyond simple regulations, or admonitions.

[Dirtygaiters]

I believe more than a few people here talking about leave no trace haven't done their homework or are making up their own rules.

Consider for a moment this notion of camping along streams. Seems to me it's not generally advisable and in some locations is specifically prohibited in order to protect water quality.

It would make more sense were one really interested in minimizing one's impact to stop for water and move on rather than camp by the water source.

I can provide examples where camping near water is specifically prohibited, but for people who think they are a law unto themselves entitled to defile the drinking water of others, there's not much point to providing links.



Prohibitions aside, you're definitely right that camping near water is pretty far off from LNT. I don't know about water quality...seems like as long as campers are walking 200 feet or so from open water to urinate and take dumps, then it's the same impact on the water as any other day of the week... Streamside and lakeside habitats are definitely more delicate than inland habitats. Imagine those muddy banks that people's feet sink into. Certain species of plants and animals live in that uniquely watered soil. In areas prone to flooding, it may seem at first that a little ground compaction and plant trampling from camping wouldn't have significant effects (thinking that the next flood will erase ones traces anyway), but a lot of streams' flooding is seasonal, so the rest of the season, when animals and plants do most of their growing and the ground is hard enough to camp on, there is definitely a potential for impact. The only real way to camp next to streams without adversely affecting the natural biota is to do so directly on a wide gravel bar. But then you really wouldn't be "stealth" and you wouldn't exactly be "no trace" either--that is, people can see your traces if your tent is smack dab next to a stream and not hidden in the trees and brush a hunded yards away.

[emerald]

I agree rickb. People are much more apt to comply if they understand why they must forgo a pleasure and the rational makes sense to them.

I intend to provide more information than what I've posted. Unfortunately, I can't get at something I'd like to link because a site where the resource is located seems to be down right now.

In some cases, it's far easier to find and link code than it is to discover why resource managers deem particular prohibitions necessary. I am more willing than some it would seem to believe rules are created for a good reason rather than to inconvenience people.

[Tipi Walter]

I stealth "camped" on the AT today. I was somewhere between BOK and Lehigh Gap, on the North Trail (yes, I'm a blue blazer, bite me). It was windy as hell and cold and it felt great. I fired up my stove, cooked up some coffee, ate my lunch, then spread out my pad and bag and had a nap. An hour or so later I woke up and kept going in the direction I was going. Nobody saw me (or if they did they didn't care I was there), nobody could tell I had been there. And I don't care if what I did was illegal or not (it was not). It was fun and nobody got hurt.

I did wear lots of orange though. :cool:

The Old Fhart, along with the other relevant and appropriate authorities, including an elite squad of the Tent Police, will be duly notified.

[emerald]

Dirtygaiters, part of the problem with camping next to water is hikers aren't likely to walk that 200 feet you mentioned in the middle of the night when nature calls. If the weather is cold, windy or they camped along that stream because they were afraid they would get lost, do you think they will walk 200 feet?

I'm doubtful and I think that may be one of the reasons why camping is prohibited within 500 feet of water on Pennsylvania State Game Lands.

If that hiker's willing to walk away from the water source, where camping is otherwise permitted, a big, flat bare rock next to a stream might be a desirable place to camp provided you don't roll into the stream and drown.

Where does the dish water get disposed of I wonder? That's an issue too. What if you spill some fuel? Oh, my! I've hardly even begun to try coming up with reasons why not to camp next to water and I'm already at 3.

Maybe you could add some more while I check on my PMs?

[rickb]

I am not a great judge of distances, but aren't many of the "official" water sources along the AT closer than 200' fom the Shelter or designated camping areas? And downhill of the latrines they tell you not to pee in anyway?




.

[saimyoji]

The Old Fhart, along with the other relevant and appropriate authorities, including an elite squad of the Tent Police, will be duly notified.


Tent not used for this nap, sorry. I was literally taking a nap, no overnight on this one.

[ed bell]

A nap is a "sleeping activity". You ought to be ashamed of yourself.:-?:rolleyes:

[Dirtygaiters]

Dirtygaiters, part of the problem with camping next to water is hikers aren't likely to walk that 200 feet you mentioned in the middle of the night when nature calls. If the weather is cold, windy or they camped along that stream because they were afraid they would get lost, do you think they will walk 200 feet?

I'm doubtful and I think that may be one of the reasons why camping is prohibited within 500 feet of water on Pennsylvania State Game Lands.

If that hiker's willing to walk away from the water source, where camping is otherwise permitted, a big, flat bare rock next to a stream might be a desirable place to camp provided you don't roll into the stream and drown.

Where does the dish water get disposed of I wonder? That's an issue too. What if you spill some fuel? Oh, my! I've hardly even begun to try coming up with reasons why not to camp next to water and I'm already at 3.

Maybe you could add some more while I check on my PMs?

I'd be delighted to! Unfortunately we're not actually in disagreement so this won't be as interesting as you might be hoping. If you'll re-read my post, you'll see that I wasn't saying anything about whether a camper would be willing to walk the necessary distance or not, just that if they did walk 200 feet away from water for disposing of human waste, then in that case the water would not be any more contaminated from their waste. Whether a camper is willing to do this or not isn't any of my business, frankly (there's a reason I don't like to go inspecting the other people in the men's room). Fuel is another matter entirely and not one I had thought of! For butane stoves, this isn't an issue as canister fuel bottles don't spill. Some alcohol fuels are poisonous, but would it likely be poisonous (would it even be introduced into the water system?) if somebody dribbled a little alcohol on a rock or on the soil next to a stream? Alcohols (and white gas too for that matter) evaporate fairly quickly when spread over a surface. However, alcohol dissolves in water so if it did reach the water table, it would be dispersed, diluted and washed downstream instead of sitting in one place like oil based fuels would do. So don't spill that white gas! That's my thoughts on it, at least. Of course all that's given the assumption that these campers are spilling their fuel, which isn't something that I'd put any of my own money on.

[Tipi Walter]

I am not a great judge of distances, but aren't many of the "official" water sources along the AT closer than 200' fom the Shelter or designated camping areas?

Yes yes yes. It's one foot on the gas, one foot on the brakes. In my neck of the woods, there's the Tellico River, the Citico Creek, and Bald River. All these fine waterways have Ranger-approved KOA-style car camping sites liberally distributed right on the banks of these creeks. In fact, on the upper Tellico's headwaters there's a large tract of land dedicated to Off Road Vehicle useage. Four wheelers. Protected river? Doubt it.

So, the backpacker has these intricate creekside rules, while upstream there's occasional busted oil pans in sport vehicles dumping fluids at the source and car campers washing their dogs and dumping who knows what else. Ironic, ain't it?

[Summit]

A nap is a "sleeping activity".Also a low-impact aerobic workout! :D

[Tipi Walter]

Tent not used for this nap, sorry. I was literally taking a nap, no overnight on this one.

The Tent Police are on stand-down, but another lower-level unit is being notified. I agree with ed bell on this one.:-?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

I got a PM that indicated that the writer thought I feel much like The Old Fhart about this issue. Please be assured that nothing could be further from the truth. Old Fhart's contribution to this thread have actually caused my position to move further from the the idea of adhering to the letter of the law and into the idea that maybe the ATC should consider alternative corridors that would allow legal camping for the entire length of the AT.

It appears that there are legal non-hut camping options in most of PA and that with the exception of Baxter and GSMNP, off-trail camping is legal along most of the AT. Perhaps the ATC could be persuaded to allow alternative corridors to those two - say the BMT for GSMNP and something other than Katahdin for the northern area and providing either an alternative trail or legal camping in the area in question in PA.