View Full Version : Flip Flop on the Approach
I am thru hiking this year and scheduled to begin on Feb 29th. I had a reason to travel to North GA a few weeks ago and decided I would do the Approach Trail. I wanted to leave my vehicle at Amicalola Falls State Park, get a shuttle to Springer and hike down the Approach. I called all the shuttle services and left messages... only one called back and he wanted $90. So I hiked from the park to the northern intersection of the Hike Inn trail on Saturday and back... then I hiked from Springer to that same intersection and back on Sun. I've done the Approach Trail twice already so I'll be skipping that in Feb.
I thought this was a somewhat funny story.
The leaves were great and I've got a photo that you can actually see the Atlanta skyline from near the upper parking lot in Amicalola.
How do I post this pic?
buckowens
12-02-2007, 15:57
When you post your reply just look for the paper clip Icon in the top row near the smiley face. Or, you can add the picture to your gallery by going to the User CP and choosing "upload photos".
I felt guilty knocking a mile off of the Approach Trail by hiking down from the lodge while there on business. But, it is just another small piece of my section hike...
Im not intending to thru til '09, but I knocked out the Approach over a year ago!
I am thru hiking this year and scheduled to begin on Feb 29th. I had a reason to travel to North GA a few weeks ago and decided I would do the Approach Trail. I wanted to leave my vehicle at Amicalola Falls State Park, get a shuttle to Springer and hike down the Approach. I called all the shuttle services and left messages... only one called back and he wanted $90. So I hiked from the park to the northern intersection of the Hike Inn trail on Saturday and back... then I hiked from Springer to that same intersection and back on Sun. I've done the Approach Trail twice already so I'll be skipping that in Feb.
I thought this was a somewhat funny story.
The leaves were great and I've got a photo that you can actually see the Atlanta skyline from near the upper parking lot in Amicalola.
How do I post this pic?
The price of $90 might not be out of line. Depends on where the driver is based. The fact that he was the only one to call back indicates IMHO he might be with a commercial service rather than be a trail angel. Commercial services are often more reliable, but also charge enough to cover costs and make a profit.
Id bet you heard back from Profile and/or Almanac at HikerHostel... Ive used them for a group shuttle on a BMT hike.
Not being overly cyber intelligent, what does IMHO mean?
Nearly Normal
12-02-2007, 18:13
It's a long shuttle.
Not being overly cyber intelligent, what does IMHO mean?In my humble opinion.
Skidsteer
12-02-2007, 18:14
Not being overly cyber intelligent, what does IMHO mean?
In my humble opinion.
Uncle Silly
12-02-2007, 18:18
Not being overly cyber intelligent, what does IMHO mean?
Ask teh Google (http://www.google.com/search?q=IMHO).
And IMHO $90 seems high. I believe the Hiker Hostel has cheaper rate.
Pedaling Fool
12-02-2007, 19:35
...How do I post this pic?
I assume you’re loading from your computer files, not directly from your camera:
Click on "Photos" on the tool bar (at top of page).
Scroll down and click on "Upload Photos"
Click on the first "Browse…" button and select picture from your computer files.
Fill out as much information in the fields below as possible.
Click the "Submit" button.I only load one picture at a time; it’s much faster for me. Also, sometimes the picture is too big to be loaded, so I usually change some features, i.e. brightness, color intensity, etc… and that usually works.
Not being overly cyber intelligent, what does IMHO mean?
Can't it also mean in my honest opinion?
Kirby
Ask teh Google (http://www.google.com/search?q=IMHO).And what does "teh" mean? I see it quite often! :p :D
Can't it also mean in my honest opinion?
KirbyGuess that depends on whether you're honest or humble. If you claim to be honest you rule out being humble! :p :)
Yes, shuttling isn't cheap but keep in mind $3 or so a gallon plus time! After they drop you of, they may have a couple hours drive back home. Shuttle professionals may be making a living but it's highly doubtful they're making a killing! ;)
Can't it also mean in my honest opinion?
What would be the point of a dishonest opinion? :-?
What would be the point of a dishonest opinion? :-?
Someone could take a sarcastic comment on this site to be an honest, when it is really not.
Kirby
It didn't bother me too much about the $90... he said it was 30 miles and he charges $3 per mile... so I decided that I would hike the Approach twice and save the money... Now I can buy some Patagonia base layers for my hike!!!!
$3 a MILE? yea, hes making a killing!
Lets analyze this.... $3 a gallon for gas. Lets just say its a gas-sucking SUV and gets only 10mpg. If he drives you 10 miles, (which might take 20 minutes on a bad day) you pay $30 for that $3 gallon of gas. They just made $27 for every 10 miles they drive. Thats $90 and hour in bad traffic. Wonder what they'd make if they moved faster?!?! Not a bad gig.
I charge (IMO) high fees, but what I charge for mileage is no where near that!
Lone Wolf
12-02-2007, 21:47
And IMHO $90 seems high. I believe the Hiker Hostel has cheaper rate.
it's damn high. totally for profit. folks should rely on hitching more
90 dollars for how far?!
Shaw's charged me 60 dollars to Pick me up in Bangor and rive me to Monson.
Kirby
90 dollars for how far?!
Shaw's charged me 60 dollars to Pick me up in Bangor and rive me to Monson.
Kirby
How far? It depends on which way you go. Most shuttles will take the longer route because of the better roads. Figure about 27miles and it takes about 50 minutes. The shorter route is about 19 miles but the time is about the same. But nobody lives near either Amicalola or Springer so the shuttle will likely have to go an addition 20+ miles each way just to get to those locations to pick up the hiker.
I just checked the Hiker Hostel web page and they charge $57 for the same shuttle.
When you arrive back down at Amicalola, there are always hikers signing in and skipping the approach trail. The have friends drive them up the mountain. A new friendship and offer of 30 bucks will get you back up in no time. I have given rides to people that have met me in the parking lot, (at no charge) for the last three years. This is part of the adventure. Just let the magic happen. :)
And what does "teh" mean? I see it quite often! :p :D
"teh" is a lame (and typically used in jest) substitute for "the." It started with instant messaging and online gaming because it feels more natural to type teh instead of the. Once the mistake was made enough it was sort of turned into a joke. Also could have originated with some hacker jargon that was used during the activity's advent. Such words as "elite" were shortened to "leet" which was changed to 1337 (you can see the resemblence they bear). Well, anyway it's basically just dorks that use it.
Oh and also afterwards, the following noun is usually pluralized out of context and goofed around with: I found it on teh intarwebs.
The commercial carriers in the National Forests are required to carry a certain insurance that can be a bit steep.
Commercial shuttle providers in National Parks must also apply for an annual permit, plus renew it each year. Part of the permit process involves obtaining very high commercial insurance, and proving that you've maintained it upon re-application.
Here's something I learned just this year. I know from first-hand experience this applies in Virginia and I believe it would apply elsewhere.
If you take money for a ride--even a donation for gas--and you only have regular consumer grade liability insurance (Allstate, Geico, Nationwide, etc.), and you get into an accident resulting in injuries, your consumer grade insurance company will deny the claim. They will say that you were operating outside the scope of the policy as a commercial transportation company. Source: Nationwide agent.
To safeguard your assets, you have to obtain insurance from a commercial carrier that writes liability/comprehensive policies for limos, taxis, etc. For a 7-passenger van worth about $15,000 a friend I was helping to get set up in business in the Spring was getting quotes starting at $2,000/yr. up to over $6,000/yr. for this kind of insurance at the level required by the National Park Service. (In Virginia, you also have to have special "For Hire" license plates--I don't know about other states).
But to not have this insurance, when the unthinkable happens, you could kiss most of your assets goodbye if a court judgement went against you. That would be a sad situatioin indeed if it happened to one of the kindhearted shuttle drivers who exist up and down the trail.
It also explains why reputable commercial services charge rates that are higher than those charged by part-timers and trail angels.
If you take money for a ride--even a donation for gas--and you only have regular consumer grade liability insurance (Allstate, Geico, Nationwide, etc.), and you get into an accident resulting in injuries, your consumer grade insurance company will deny the claim.
1. Thats if they find out. I think "can deny" is more likely.
2. Insurance for commercial work is very important to have it you are making some portion of your living off of it. I think offering a couple bucks for gas for a hitch is not going to fall into this catagory.
3. Youd be surprised to needs to have this kind of insurance, but fails to get it... pizza delivery drivers. In the application for insurance, it plainly asks, "will you be using this car for work?" Most, if not all, say no, or they fail to update their policy if the get the employment afterwards. I was delighfully surprised when PapaJohns paid for my repairs caused by one of their drivers who failed to properly insure their delivery vehicle.
Regardless, driving these days (cost of gas) is not cheap!
briarpatch
12-03-2007, 01:16
How far? It depends on which way you go. Most shuttles will take the longer route because of the better roads. Figure about 27miles and it takes about 50 minutes. The shorter route is about 19 miles but the time is about the same. But nobody lives near either Amicalola or Springer so the shuttle will likely have to go an addition 20+ miles each way just to get to those locations to pick up the hiker.
I just checked the Hiker Hostel web page and they charge $57 for the same shuttle.
Plus, the shuttle driver has to return from Springer to wherever he started, so that 1 hour/27 mile drive becomes at least a 2 hour/54 mile drive.
1. Thats if they find out. I think "can deny" is more likely.
2. Insurance for commercial work is very important to have it you are making some portion of your living off of it. I think offering a couple bucks for gas for a hitch is not going to fall into this catagory.
3. Youd be surprised to needs to have this kind of insurance, but fails to get it... pizza delivery drivers. In the application for insurance, it plainly asks, "will you be using this car for work?" Most, if not all, say no, or they fail to update their policy if the get the employment afterwards. I was delighfully surprised when PapaJohns paid for my repairs caused by one of their drivers who failed to properly insure their delivery vehicle.
Regardless, driving these days (cost of gas) is not cheap!
If a hiker or hikers you're shuttling for $$$ is injured or worse while in your vehicle, or someone in another vehicle is injured or worse while you are transporting those hikers, there will be insurance claims. The injured party(s) have every right to be compensated for medical expenses, time lost from work, other losses, even pain and suffering.
The better "consumer" insurance companies like Nationwide, State Farm, etc. will pay reasonable claims once their investigations yield facts that they are culpable. (Others, like AIG, will be harder to collect from IMHO.) But no matter what, there will be investigations. If everyone involved in the accident sticks to the same story and the insurance company does not find out this was a pay-for-ride, you're probably right. Not going to be a problem.
But the insurance investigators (in large claims they put their best on the case) are going to want to know about the relationship between driver and passenger(s). When it is discovered, as it will be, that they are basically strangers, and that there is backpacking gear strewn all over the accident scene--questions will be asked. Perhaps even under oath. Under these conditions I wouldn't be so sure that everyone will stick to the story.
Bottom line: If an insurance company can weasel out of paying, they will. Accepting a few bucks for gas money is paying for a ride in their view, at least that's what a Nationwide agent told us last Spring. (The subject of hitchhikers was not discussed, only rides given that were arranged in advance for which there was an exchange of $$$—even just gas money.) The solution: Obtain commercial "For Hire" insurance at a (much) higher cost.
A few years back the media followed the case of a small limo operator in the DC area who lost nearly everything in a situation like this. He had a relatively minor business (two Town Cars, and he was the only driver). He had a middle class home in a suburb which was almost paid for, and had appreciated in value considerably. By all accounts, he worked long hours and made decent money in his small enterprise. He had college funds for his kids. On an icy stretch of road he lost control while transporting some folks out for an evening. No one died, and he wasn't seriously injured, but there were injuries to some of the passengers. One in particular was a life-altering injury. He was trying to get by on the cheap with consumer-grade insurance. His insurer denied the claim once it was revealed he was taking $$$ for the ride. He wound up being sued by each passenger--even those who weren't really injured. The legal defense costs alone were astounding. The passenger with life-altering injuries won a settlement in the seven figures, while the others were awarded considerably less. He lost the home, the money in the bank, the two Town Cars, and more. At the time of the media coverage, there was still a judgement (for the $$$ awarded that his assets didn't cover) hanging over him that he will probably never pay off. He wound up existing in a small apartment, his wife left him, he was working at Wal-Mart for under $10/hr., he couldn't afford to buy any kind of insurance for the junker he was driving to work, and the kids weren't headed to college unless they could pay their own way.
It would be tragic if this type of thing happened to any of the kind souls who assist hikers by transporting them at low rates or for donations. The odds are against it, but it could indeed happen. Shuttlers with few or no attachable assets needn't be too concerned, though their passengers should be. The rest of us should take notice. In our case, we opted for the commercial-grade insurance, found for the "bargain" rate of about $2,300 per year. If we have any claims at all, that could triple. Takes a lot of volume at commercial shuttle rates to pay for that. First season was just a little better than break-even.
But the insurance investigators (in large claims they put their best on the case)
I do this for a living, preaching to the choir...
Bare Bear
12-03-2007, 13:57
A "Fair Price" is what a willing buyer pays a willing seller.
When I got shuttled from Neels Gap to the parking lot nearest to Springer (9/10 mile up then back again to continue north I believe it was) I paid $60 and thought it fair. It took over an hour to get there and the driver had to get back to his home too. He also charged the $60 if there were 1, 2, 0r 3 hikers......so it seemed fair to me for the two that went to share it, $30 each. I will also add that when I was at Stecoah Gap last year blowing about $3K on hikers in two weeks, I was shocked that some hikers felt that they were 'owed' a trip to town and got upset when we suggested they try to hitch first then we would run a group in at 5 pm if still necessary. We did so many trips in 15 days that we started charging ten bucks just to cut down the requests a little. It worked.........a lot less people wanted to run in when it would cost them a few dollars and we were giving them food, water,resupply, even fuel.Be grateful there are folks like Mary in Duncannon, etc. etc. that will do it. THEY are not getting rich I assure you. Hang out and help for a day and you will see how hard they work to help hikers.
Guess that depends on whether you're honest or humble. If you claim to be honest you rule out being humble! :p :)
and if you claim to be humble, you're probably not being honest, generally speaking...;)
I do this for a living, preaching to the choir...
Oh gee. Hope you don't work for AIG. They've given the shaft to two people I know, and their reputation is so bad one repair garage in Front Royal VA won't even accept vehicles insured by AIG.
Anyhow, didn't mean to preach to the choir. I was shocked to find out how insurance works if you charge money for rides. I bet a few other WBers are too.
The Mechanical Man
12-04-2007, 00:58
There is a lot more to shuttling than driving the car!
The shuttle guy DID call you back, and he had to PAY for that when his phone bill arrived, so YOU actually cost him money$. And you wonder why you think he has high prices.
It's only common sense, he needed to raise his prices, to make up for folks like you calling him and leaving a message to call back, then never actually using his services, who knows how many hundreds of calls he gets a year.
We should all be happy for everyone on the shuttle lists, there may be a time you will be happy to get a ride at all with the rising prices of EVERYTHING.
Did you ever even think, of sending him a small donation for being a nice guy and calling you back?