View Full Version : February 1 Start, NOBO - 25F Bag?
Well here's the deal. I got a Mont Bell UL SS 800 Fill down #2 (mouthful) bag already. It's rated to to 25F and seems to get the nod from several people on here. It was mighty comfy it's first time out and I love the weight and features.
However, we have moved up our start from a mid-Feb/first March to a solid Feb 1. I was planning on adding warmth through good base layers and a sleeping liner, but will a 25F bag cut it?
Our biggest concern is the Great Smoky Natl Forest. A few really cold nights in there would be horrible as getting off the trail is not easy.
I check NOAA and a few other posts and it seem to me that temps can get down in the mid 20s, but there isn't really good data out there for actually in the mountains.
Advice?
If you're a warm sleeper, a silk liner and a good layer system will do. However, if you get cold easily (more so compared to others) I'd have a 0 or 10 degree bag. For me a 25 F bag on feb 1st would not cut it at all.
Try it out in the backyard or nearby camping with the exact setup you plan to use varying temps.
Good luck!
take-a-knee
12-05-2007, 13:21
A homemade synthetic quilt with a drawstring footbox that could be adjusted to fit over your montbell without compressing the down might be a low cost option. It could be made from a Ray Jardine kit, you'd have to make the footbox a little different than his instructions though. When you finally walked far enough for things to warm up you could just mail the overbag home.
Pedaling Fool
12-05-2007, 13:31
You'll be fine, even if you're a "cold-sleeper". Yeah, you'll get cold, but as long as you stay DRY you'll be fine. Don't waste money getting a new sleepingbag, just do the layer thing and when possible sleep in your tent.
Being a cold-sleeper does not mean you will get hypothermia sooner than anyone else (I'm also a cold-sleeper), it just means you'll be uncomfortable. However, I'd rather have those memories of being miserable (some of my best memories of my trip) than wasting money on stuff I don't really need.
I took a NOBO hiker to Springer on April 11, 2007. That night it was 19* and the winds were steady at 10mpg, with gusts to 20mph... It was cold.
Thanks for the input guys.
I think I would rather err on the side of caution and be able to go up a bit from 0 with less layers or down into negatives with layers.
Is there a market for a very, very slightly used 25F bag? Maybe, say if you were planning on starting in March? lol
Pedaling Fool
12-05-2007, 13:54
I took a NOBO hiker to Springer on April 11, 2007. That night it was 19* and the winds were steady at 10mpg, with gusts to 20mph... It was cold.
I was at Gooch Mtn Shelter the night before and the winds were very strong and it was very cold. By the time we got to Plumorchard Shelter the winds were reportedly gusting at 60 MPH, which I believe, because over the next week there were blow-downs everywhere.
This is what it looked Like (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=17901&original=1&c=member&imageuser=6936)on 9 April, near Springer.
max patch
12-05-2007, 14:30
I certainly wouldn't start Feb 1 with only a 25 degree rated bag.
dessertrat
12-05-2007, 14:32
Are you in a place that's cold enough to try it out in the backyard?
Why not take along a couple of liners for the bag, and mail them home once it warms up?
I think a trial run is in order before I get rid of it. I was hoping to use one bag for the whole trail and indeed, if we were starting a bit later, I would risk it.
The other option would be to snag a down quilt and just layer up. Really not sure what I am going to do yet, but need to decide fairly soon as we aren't that far out...
So, if I were to get a new bag, 0F or even colder?
dessertrat
12-05-2007, 14:40
There seems to be a big jump in weight and bulk between 20 and 0 degree bags. I still would try a liner and the bag you've got. You are also going to have some long underwear and some sort of fleece or down jacket, right?
I certainly wouldn't start Feb 1 with only a 25 degree rated bag.
I think I agree. I've made it through some cold temps with a 15*, but it wasn't pleasant. I've also gotten caught on Whitetop in southern Virginia the first week of spring and had blizzard conditions with temps well below zero.
If you have the option, a zero bag should be on your list for a Feb. start. Making a 25* bag work for a March or April start is one thing when you only have a few weeks to endure it, but you have several months of low temps probable - go for more comfort!
More and more it seems like I need to find a good 0F bag...
I was planning on a slik sleeping liner and Smartwool baselayer. Fleece jacket, hadn't decided on syn or down vest yet.
I live in Southern Indiana - world famous super variable winter weather. We got 22" of snow in a 24hr period 3 years ago and probably about 1" TOTAL the past 2. We have seen 70deg temps on Christmas day and neg temps in March...
So yeah, I just need to get outside one of these colder nights.
Well now I gone and done it ;). Here is the sale post on the Used Gear forum:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=464225#post464225
Tell your friends, tell your family, tell your neighbors. Even those that might like to just be really, really warm in their house this winter ;)
Think you might be happy you decided to go this route. Not that you couldn't make a 25* bag work, but you will be more comfortable with the warmer one, and more relaxed, knowing that you will handle the bad weather when it comes. You will probably want a summer bag tho to change to once it warms up, I'm sure you realize that. :-)
MtnBikerGuy
12-05-2007, 15:30
I hiked through the Smokey's the first week of May in 2006 and had a night of snow and the ground was completely covered by about 1-2 inches in the morning. I'm sure you will run into a few days of snow and COLD weather along the way. Think about carrying a warmer sleeping bag and swapping along the way. With the added clothes and liner, its probably not saving you any weight.
Yeah, I know I will need a different summer bag. At that point I think I will go synthetic just for the massive price differences.
I am looking at the Montbell UL SS Hugger Down #0 pretty heavily, but could be swayed to something else especially if someone know of a good 0F syn bag that weighs under 4 pounds (hey, I want it all lol)
Yeah, I know I will need a different summer bag. At that point I think I will go synthetic just for the massive price differences.
I am looking at the Montbell UL SS Hugger Down #0 pretty heavily, but could be swayed to something else especially if someone know of a good 0F syn bag that weighs under 4 pounds (hey, I want it all lol)
If you're in the market for cheap synthetic summer bags, check out Lafuma bags. You can get a decent one rated around 40 degrees for between 50-100 bucks
During my 07 thru hike I spent Easter weekend (April 7-8)in the Smokey's and it got down to around 8 degrees two nights in a row. You are talking about leaving 2 months earlier, hard to say what temps are possible. A couple guys that were unprepared spent a cold night with us at a shelter and were taken off the mountain by a ridge runner. This entailed a 8 mile walk down a snowy side trail and then a ride with a park ranger. If not for the ridge runner they would not have been able to get out. Better to be a little over prepared than unprepared.
With this in mind only you can decide on a sleeping bag everyone sleeps at a different temp. I had a 10 degree Western Mountaineering bag and was warm enough. I recommend a good quality bag like Western Mountaineering or Feathered Friends.
The temps last year varied from 91 degrees(NC/GA border late March) - 8 degrees(Smokey's April 8) the first three weeks, hard to pick one bag to cover that range.
Feb 1 is a very ambitious and early start date. Might want to rethink that one. You could very easily encounter single digit, even sub-zero temps. Not saying it's going to happen but it could. Another thing to consider with that early a start date is you will do a lot of miles before the first hint of spring, and days can be pretty dreary that time of year. I think March 15th is plenty early enough to start.
During my 07 thru hike I spent Easter weekend (April 7-8)in the Smokey's and it got down to around 8 degrees two nights in a row. Hey, just missed you. I was doing a section hike in the Mt. Albert area that week (end). And yep, there were a couple of "three-dog nights!"
Feb 1 is a very ambitious and early start date. Might want to rethink that one. You could very easily encounter single digit, even sub-zero temps. Not saying it's going to happen but it could. Another thing to consider with that early a start date is you will do a lot of miles before the first hint of spring, and days can be pretty dreary that time of year. I think March 15th is plenty early enough to start.
If we are going to get an A.T. hike in anytime in the next few years (or maybe ever), we have to start February 1 - we have to be back Aug 1, but thanks for the concern.
bigcranky
12-05-2007, 21:01
I carry a warmer bag in February and even into March, but switch to my 30-F bag by mid-March. I supplement it with insulated clothing (down or micropuff jacket) and have been good into the teens.
If you get the winter bag, don't sell the 25-F bag -- you'll need it when you get to Virginia, and for the rest of the summer. You really will NOT want a 0-F bag in May or June.
I started in march and I used a 20 degree cats meow bag by north face.I switched to a 45 degree bag by rei during the warmer months.However ,in the white mtns and in Maine it can get very cold in the upper elevations .
What about a Big Anges synthetic over bag? I already have one of their pads. The only downside will be the extra weight over something like a Montbell UL SS #0 and the extra pack space.
I would gain a synthetic outer shell "just in case", a 40deg bag I could use in warm weather, and save some money.
Thoughts?
turtle fast
12-06-2007, 13:41
Myself while preparing for my thru with my wife...I have to rethink now my wifes bag. As she is only 4' 10", I got her the childrens Northface tigger bag at 20 deg, with a fleece liner...add another 10 deg....so a 10 deg bag for the end of March departure. Being petite she gets cold fast....to add an overbag would just be more weight. I would like to buy her a 0 of -15 bag, but again she is 4' 10"...too much extra room in a regular bag I think.
Any suggestions!!!! I am in a quandery here.
The Solemates
12-06-2007, 15:18
Well here's the deal. I got a Mont Bell UL SS 800 Fill down #2 (mouthful) bag already. It's rated to to 25F and seems to get the nod from several people on here. It was mighty comfy it's first time out and I love the weight and features.
However, we have moved up our start from a mid-Feb/first March to a solid Feb 1. I was planning on adding warmth through good base layers and a sleeping liner, but will a 25F bag cut it?
Our biggest concern is the Great Smoky Natl Forest. A few really cold nights in there would be horrible as getting off the trail is not easy.
I check NOAA and a few other posts and it seem to me that temps can get down in the mid 20s, but there isn't really good data out there for actually in the mountains.
Advice?
we started 1 feb 2004. i had a 5 deg bag. my wife had a 0 deg bag. we saw over a handful of nights below 0 degrees (and these were not just in the smokies as you suggest). there is no way i would go with a 25 deg bag.
So, if I were to get a new bag, 0F or even colder?First sleep outside in your 20* on a night where it gets down to about 10*
Then you will have a better sense.
Also, there is a huge difference in sleeping bag ratings. Most just use inches of loft to determine rating, but bag construction plays a huge part.
You'll be fine, The odds of him being fine with 25* bag for a 1 February start are nil.
NC ain't Florida. He'll be at 5000 feet the second week of February, and in the Smokies before March.
The Solemates
12-06-2007, 17:34
The odds of him being fine with 25* bag for a 1 February start are nil.
NC ain't Florida. He'll be at 5000 feet the second week of February, and in the Smokies before March.
wise words...
we were in the smokies before valentines day and there was a good 6-12 inches of free snow with snow drifts on the trail in excess of 30 inches. 441 was shut down and we saw not a single person from fontana dam until hot springs.
Well here's the deal. I got a Mont Bell UL SS 800 Fill down #2 (mouthful) bag already. It's rated to to 25F and seems to get the nod from several people on here. It was mighty comfy it's first time out and I love the weight and features.
However, we have moved up our start from a mid-Feb/first March to a solid Feb 1. I was planning on adding warmth through good base layers and a sleeping liner, but will a 25F bag cut it?
Our biggest concern is the Great Smoky Natl Forest. A few really cold nights in there would be horrible as getting off the trail is not easy.
I check NOAA and a few other posts and it seem to me that temps can get down in the mid 20s, but there isn't really good data out there for actually in the mountains.
Advice?I use a bag about the same rating up here in January, though on the coast and not inland or at elevation. It can in theory get down to -35F though, so it is not wise, but I've used my bag comfortably down to 5-10F though. Need a good ground pad for sure, like 2 blue foam pads, plus you need some sleeping clothes, and a bivy also if you sleep under a small tarp as I do. I would recommend long wool underwear. When you get to warmer weather you can retire one of the blue foam pads and the long underwear. I've tried a tent in winter in cold wet conditions with temperature dropping from 32F to 10F overnight and found it didn't seem to matter whether the doorflap was open or closed. One was too wet. The other was too cold. So now I bivy and ponchotarp all year round and find it easier to crash in smaller places in out of the wind.
So I think the consenus I am hearing is that most recommend a 0deg bag or equvilent with a few that think the 25 might be enough.
Did anyone see my post above about layering another bag over my exisiting Montbell?
Seriously, thanks for all the input - the first month will be rough enough without having sleeping arrangement issues so I will err on the side of caution.
Johnny Thunder
12-06-2007, 19:43
So I think the consenus I am hearing is that most recommend a 0deg bag or equvilent with a few that think the 25 might be enough.
Did anyone see my post above about layering another bag over my exisiting Montbell?
Seriously, thanks for all the input - the first month will be rough enough without having sleeping arrangement issues so I will err on the side of caution.
You're better off finding a synthetic bag to put inside...specifically, look for one that will still insulate while compressed by the outer down bag.
The reason you want something inside the down bag is because down does not insulate when compressed. If you compress the loft of your down bag it's worthless so putting something on the top of it is inefficient.
For synthetic bags to put inside take a look at the marmot pounder. It is my understanding that this bag doesn't "loft". Instead, it uses a few thin layers of fabric insulation. This might work.
Plus the down will be dryer on the outside. On the other hand there may be more room on the outside. I think the most practical and robust solution, though perhaps not the lightest, would be long wool underwear and a fleece liner on the inside, and an extra blue foam pad underneath.
If that's what you did, how many weeks would it be before you could ditch that extra weight, like the long underwear and fleece liner and extra blue foam pad? The cost would not be that great, and the extra weight would only be for 4-6 weeks maybe.
Blissful
12-06-2007, 20:11
It got down to eight degrees near Albert mtn without even getting to the Smokies last March. Last night here it got to 10 degrees just in the Blue Ridge.
Feb first you need to think winter and winter gear. People were out there in Jan and early Feb last year and were very cold. A friend of mine had to switch to a zero WM bag and she still got off because it was too cold. No way do you go with a 25 degree bag. Hope you have a good tent too.
Jack Tarlin
12-06-2007, 20:14
Your chances of running into below 25-degree weather if you start on 1 February are probably around 100%.
Switch bags, or bring a ton of extra clothing, or be prepared to be REALLY cold.
By the way, the number one thing that forces early starters to quit the Trail is adverse weather conditions; extended periods of bad weather; and inability to deal with same.
I don't mean to discourage you, but for heaven's sake, listen to the people above......bring a warmer bag.
You would definitely have to test it first. That's for sure. Bring some extra clothes and blankets when you do, and not too deep. You also have to consider that some stuff might be wet when you get hit with the mercury drop, and you might be tired also. The way I test stuff like that is to spend a day outside cross country skiing or hiking or building a snow shelter if there's any snow, but then sleeping outside in the backyard or someplace you can bailout to. It can be done down close to 0F, but you need clothes and an extra groundpad, and there is not much room for error if some stuff gets wet first or the temperature drops even further. My experience here in a north wind system in January is once it drops enough that all surface moisture is frozen or blown offshore then the temperature can really drop, especially on a clear night. I know its further south down there, but up in the mountains might be much the same as much further North. Not much moisture to keep the thermometer from dropping. The major problem with March up here though is not the extreme cold, but the wet, which can then be followed by extreme cold. The oldtimers say in the old days the logging companies could never keep the men in the woods in March. March was the worst. Not sure about down there, or in the mountains.
What do you do with the warmer bag later on though? Mind you, if you hike fast you could be up North when it is still quite cold, so a heavier bag wouldn't hurt. I should still think a good 3 pound down bag would be adequate as long as the rest of your clothing and gear was sufficient. An extra blue foam pad is a cheap way to make a big difference, as is long wool underwear, and an extra down hood is another idea. Still, if you might need a heavier bag most of the way up North you might as well start with one. Should be an easy thing to test in January. No matter what you do you have to test stuff like this yourself.
bigcranky
12-06-2007, 21:47
Here's another way to look at it.
A 25-F bag will be fine in February, as long as you are willing to get off the trail and into a hotel room when you get hit with a storm or a cold snap. You'll probably spend a couple of nights at Neel Gap, several days in Franklin, several more at NOC and Fontana Village, all while you try to wait out the bad weather.
This gets expensive. Way more expensive than dropping the $400 on a good winter bag before you leave. Get a Western Mountaineering Antelope or a Montbell #0 Down Hugger, or a Marmot Lithium, or a similar high quality bag. Make sure it's in a good waterproof stuff sack, inside a plastic trash bag.
Good luck and happy trails.
Blissful
12-06-2007, 22:03
Here's another way to look at it.
A 25-F bag will be fine in February, as long as you are willing to get off the trail and into a hotel room when you get hit with a storm or a cold snap. You'll probably spend a couple of nights at Neel Gap, several days in Franklin, several more at NOC and Fontana Village, all while you try to wait out the bad weather.
This gets expensive. Way more expensive than dropping the $400 on a good winter bag before you leave. Get a Western Mountaineering Antelope or a Montbell #0 Down Hugger, or a Marmot Lithium, or a similar high quality bag. Make sure it's in a good waterproof stuff sack, inside a plastic trash bag.
Good luck and happy trails.
If he doesn't get caught inbetween trail towns, that is!! Being cold is the most uncomfortable thing there is. And not getting sleep makes it hard to hike.
Good advice, Big Cranky.
I actually had three bags for my trip. I went synthetic as my choice. A 15 degree bag until late May. A Marmot pounder for the summer. And a Marmot pounder plus from NH on. Love marmot and the prices are reasonable. That was a March to Sept. hike though. Also took a silk liner the whole trip. Worked out good for me and also when I switched to a smaller lightweight pack.
Everyone has given great advice. I think I made a good choice in my bag in when we thought we might be starting later, but based on everything said here and in no small part my own gut, I am going to get myself into the Montbell UL SS #0 down. I haven't found any syn bags that compress well enough (I would have sucked up the weight) and my previous idea of double-bagging it would have earned an unfortunate nickname I am afraid - lol.
So, I am sold. If you know anyone that is starting a bit later, my Montbell #2 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30342) is already on the Used Gear forum.
I wonder if you could overfill a #2 to make a #1, if you were on the skinny side.
I wonder if you could overfill a #2 to make a #1, if you were on the skinny side.
Not sure, but since I am not on the skinny side (yet, ask me in 8 something months ;) ) it doesn't much matter.
I have a #0 Montbell on the way.
Congrats on your second Montbell! I love those bags! I have the #1 and just love it!