Pinhoti! True Southern Terminus [Archive]

walkswithcoyotes

12-10-2003, 11:35

This is my first post here and I want to say that I am humbled to be here among such an elite group of people. Thank You all! But my post concerns the thought that the actual true Southern Terminus of the AT should actually begin at Flagg Mountian in the Talladega National Forest in East Central Alabama. The Pinhoti Trail! I have been dreaming of doing a thru hike for some years now and it looks like 05 will be the begining of what I have dreamed of for a long time. Please give me your thoughts on starting the AT at this point, which I plan to do, and whether this should become the origin of the Southern AT.

Thanks and Best Regards to everyone!

Bankrobber

12-10-2003, 11:42

Is there a geographical reason for Flagg Mountain being the true Southern terminus?

walkswithcoyotes

12-10-2003, 11:45

http://outside.away.com/outside/news/200304/200304_disp_walking.html

walkswithcoyotes

12-10-2003, 11:47

Sorry! Meant to include the link!

chris

12-10-2003, 11:56

I think that Flagg mountain is supposed to be the geological start of the Appalachian mountains. Spur has some journals at www.trailjournals.com which may document his hike from Flagg Mountain to Gaspe. He gave a slide show of this at the Gathering this year, so you may want to talk with him about the hike.

steve hiker

12-10-2003, 11:58

I beleive Flagg Mountain is the first point at which the Appalachian foothills break 1,000 feet. Saw this info on the website of someone who has just hiked the Pinhoti Trail as part of his attempt to thru-hike the entire Appalachian chain (the AT-I) from Flagg Mountain to Quebec. Here's the link:

http://www.geocities.com/dionalaniz/at

rumbler

12-10-2003, 12:01

A "proposed" southern terminus, not "the true" southern terminus.

A (very) few folks elect to start in Florida and hike northward. They still don't start the AT until Springer, and they finish the AT at Katahdin even though they may intend to hike to Canada.

Have fun on your hike, and enjoy the AT when you reach it. I admire anyone who hikes more than one long-distance trail at a time.

walkswithcoyotes

12-10-2003, 12:04

But wouldn't the true geographical terminus be at Flagg!

walkswithcoyotes

12-10-2003, 12:12

I know the trail is not yet officailly connected, but........ let's be geographical.

walkswithcoyotes

12-10-2003, 12:51

I think Long Distance Hikers have missed approx. 130 miles of the AT. Via the Pinhoti Trail! Does any one agree? Just my thoughts!

Fox

12-10-2003, 13:10

I think Long Distance Hikers have missed approx. 130 miles of the AT. Via the Pinhoti Trail! Does any one agree? Just my thoughts!
No. They are not. Your point is moot in relation to your question. Thru-hikers that start or finish at Springer are not missing a step of the AT

walkswithcoyotes

12-10-2003, 13:38

Fox, Please explain why my point is "moot" in relation to the question.

walkswithcoyotes

12-10-2003, 13:52

walkswithcoyotes

12-10-2003, 14:05

Hey! Thanks for the links Steve and Chris!

Peace and Love To You All!

~Steve~

Rain Man

12-10-2003, 14:14

My question actually being, If the AT should actually start at the Pinhoti Trail, at Flagg Mountain! Which is geographically the southern terminus of the Appalachian Mountains.

Why is 1,000 English Feet the "Actual True" dividing line? Why not 1,000 European Meters?

Or, how about 738 feet and 3 and 1/16th inches?

What makes 1,000 feet so magical? Is it in the Bible somewhere maybe? The Koran? Some science fiction book?

You get my point... which is no point is ordained by God, by nature, or the laws of physics. It's a sloppy, political decision by man.

So, I take it you'd like Alabama to be included and the "nice, round number" you settled on makes the ends fit the means. I'll buy that! While you're at it, come up with a "rule" that gets my home State of South Carolina in there too!!! Okay?

Thanks and good luck on your quests. I mean that.

chris

12-10-2003, 14:26

Note: The Appalachian mountains go under water at Gaspe and then re-emerge in Newfoundland where they run through (I believe) Gros Morne. I do think Flagg Mnt. is geologically the southern end and somewhere in Newfoundland is the northern end. The Appalachian trail isn't supposed to be (by supposed to be, I mean in the context in which it was planned, the developed, and the common usage of the term today) an end-to-end hike of the geological chain. Springer seems like a fairly arbitrary place to start or end, however. Katahdin seems pretty logical, though.

walkswithcoyotes

12-10-2003, 14:36

So what's your point "RainMan" other than your bull***** babbling! Should the At begin at the geographical southern, and end at the geographical northern of the U.S. or does it really matter to anyone? Let's just walk around and see where we end up! Who knows we might end up, in Canada or maybe South Florida. Or Okay let's just leave it as it is!

walkswithcoyotes

12-10-2003, 14:49

My point actually being, is: should the the AT be extended to the southern most geographical point of the Applachians, which has been pursued, to Flagg Mountain or somewhere close, in Alabama. Didn't mean to piss in anyones Wheaties. Hope to see you on the trail: Pinhoti to Maine!

Bankrobber

12-10-2003, 14:50

I may be mistaken, but I thought that Springer Mountain was the southernmost point in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Anyways, the route of Appalachian Trail is subjective. 1,000 feet does seem like a subjective measurement. One could argue that a hiker should start where the first foothill begins.
Starting at Springer has accumulated much tradition, and it does not look like it will change anytime soon. Much of Appalachia is missed by the trail. It was arbitrarily placed through the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia, ignoring the Alleghanies of West Virginia. It bypasses the Catskills and the Adirondacks. Ultimately, the route of the trail is subjective. The hike from Flagg Mountain does seem like a great hike, and I hope to do it someday. But until then, let tradition rule, and let the official AT begin at Springer.

Fox

12-10-2003, 14:53

Fox, Please explain why my point is "moot" in relation to the question.

walkswithcoyotes,
I was addressing your assertion that folks had "missed approx. 130 miles of the AT. Via the Pinhoti Trail! Does any one agree?" By definition the AT is: From Katahdin in Maine to Springer Mountain in Georgia, the Appalachian National Scenic Trail wanders the ridges and valleys of the Appalachian mountain ranges for more than 2,172 miles. Your point/question involved a should, thus making the query involving missing parts of the actual trail moot or perhaps better phrased as irrelevant in context.

And now, allow me to apologize for being a smartass. I knew what you were asking yet couldn't help myself. I have read many discussions about continuing the trail north but this is the first time I have heard of heading south into Alabama. I'm intrigued.

Again, sorry for being a jerk. Good luck with your efforts.

walkswithcoyotes

12-10-2003, 15:09

Hey! Fox!
No offense taken. I'm sorry for the reply I made! Really! Proposals have been made to extend the AT into Alabama, those believing that Alabama should be the Southern Terminus of the Appilachian Chain and thus the AT itself. I personally would like to see this happen just for the sake of having Alabama on my "stick"! And I do believe that Alabame should be part of the AT, for personel reasons I guess, because I live here! LOL. 2450 ft. is not shabby to some parts of the AT, if elevation really means anything! Anyway, just my thoughts here and will be doiing it in 05 regardless! I plan to do Pinhoti to Maine! Canada is really another story, though!

Peace and Good Luck to Y'all

gravityman

12-10-2003, 15:21

Why is 1,000 English Feet the "Actual True" dividing line? You get my point... which is no point is ordained by God, by nature, or the laws of physics. It's a sloppy, political decision by man.

Sure there is! The speed of light is ordained by the laws of physics! It's the same, indepenent of what coordinate system you use (relatively speaking!)

And of course the Gravitational Constant :)

Gravity Man

Rain Man

12-10-2003, 15:41

Sure there is! The speed of light is ordained by the laws of physics!

Ahhh.... Gravity Man, you shed light upon a vaguery in my syntax!!! When I said "... no point is ordained by God, by nature, or the laws of physics. It's a sloppy, political decision by man" ... I meant no AT terminus point.

My boo boo!

:)

Rain Man

12-10-2003, 15:49

So what's your point "RainMan" other than your bull***** babbling!

Calm down, Alabama Man. YOU asked for comments, not me.

However, I did mix up two posts... I thought you had used 1,000 feet as the reason the AT "actually, truly" belongs in Alabama. Sorry for my mistake.

But I stand by my observation. It's not number of feet, it's politics that determines where the terminii are. Myron Avery wanted the northern terminus in his State of Maine and he got his way. You just have to be persuasive, like Avery. Maybe you share another of his personality traits, if not persuasiveness, though.

Enjoy your hike!!!

:)

walkswithcoyotes

12-10-2003, 15:59

Thanks for your replies! Have a good one. Hope to see on the trail one day!

ga>me>ak

12-11-2003, 12:13

Just an FYI..... I believe that Sleepy the Arab from this site is doing the Pinhoti to ME hike as we speak. Said he was leaving in Dec.

steve hiker

12-11-2003, 12:23

I've always thought it odd that the AT skips West Virginia (by and large), where so much of Appalachia is. The AT really is arbitrary. Bottom line is, hike your own hike.

B Thrash

12-11-2003, 21:49

I think Long Distance Hikers have missed approx. 130 miles of the AT. Via the Pinhoti Trail! Does any one agree? Just my thoughts!
I think if you start on Flagg Mtn in Alabama and go Northeast on the Pinhoti for 130 miles you will be at the Alabama/Georgia state line. You didnot count the miles being missed on the Georgia Pinhoti Trail and the Benton McKaye Trail before you reach the AT on Springer Mtn. (Somewhere in the neighborhood of another 100 miles more or less) :welcome

Dances with Mice

12-11-2003, 23:02

--snip-- Proposals have been made to extend the AT into Alabama, those believing that Alabama should be the Southern Terminus of the Appilachian Chain and thus the AT itself. --snip--

No. There are no proposals to extend the AT.

There have been plans, some completed, to connect other trails to the AT. The Pinhoti Trail allows hikers the option of hiking further south, or to start their hike further south, but that is not the same as extending the AT.

http://www.alabamatrailsasso.org/at.htm

chief

12-11-2003, 23:16

Dances with Mice is correct. There's really no discussion about extending the AT. Even the Alabama Trails Association, a prime mover behind the Pinhoti Trail, just wants to connect to the AT, not extend it.

BTW, the Appalachian Range extends into the gulf coastal plain of Alabama, so Flagg Mtn. is no less an arbitrary terminus than Springer Mtn.

greenman

03-28-2005, 21:20

hey,
i take great pride from being from the foothills of the a.t.,i was born in anniston,al. about 40 miles from flagg mtn.,anyone that loves to hike will enjoy the pinhoti!mt. cheaha is a grandfather mountain with an elevation higher than about 5 or 6 states along the length of the range!its somewhere around 30 miles from one side to the other.mcdill point is kinda like bamas mcafees knob!for someone wanting to extend their hike or warm up for the long haul these foothills are unsurpassed!be careful though dugger mtn. may very well kick your heiny!
happy trails!
greenman

Doctari

03-28-2005, 22:21

The "original" southern terminus was at Mt Oglethorp, 20 miles south of Springer. That is where Earl Shaffer the first person to do a thru hike, started.

Personally, I think it would be a kick to hike from Flagg, over Oglethorp & on to Springer. That way you can claim to have started at "ALL" the southern terminus' of the AT :dance

Would that be a 3 way start?

Doctari.

saimyoji

03-28-2005, 22:38

Like all things the AT changes over time, even from year to year. Given enough popularity, the So. Terminus may extend further south, who's to say...I find it rather difficult to imagine extending the northern range across the atlantic to GB or Spain....Imagine the argument from RnR on that one! :datz

Tha Wookie

03-29-2005, 00:07

It made sense to me that the trail should start in AL, even though I'm a GA boy.

But then I walked the Pinhoti. In AL, it is all a trail (now, thanks to the ongoing efforts by AL trail clubs), but in GA, the first stretch (>80 miles) until you reach the Cohutta's is not a trail at all. Most of it is road walking, along 55mph roads with people who are not accustomed to pedestrains (especially with long red beards and backpacks). The AT COULDN'T start in AL, because there is no real connector (yet)!

But with the large private landholdings by Island (I think that is the name) land management or something like that, plus many miles of private roads, it will be a LONG time until the AT extends that far southwest. Don't hold your breath.

What you CAN do is support the GA and AL Pinhoti clubs, and the SE Trails Innitiative. Right now the most help is needed in the Pinhoti to open up a walking corridor.

All that road walking gave me some horrendous shin splints :(

Tha Wookie

03-29-2005, 00:09

just wanted to edit that some of that road stretch does have some decent trails peppered in there.

ed bell

03-29-2005, 00:22

The Southern and Northern termini of the AT are what they are. Many parts of the trail are special, and worthy of high regard. The termini will always be important to people who start or end their long journeys, regardless of where they are located. Wouldn't it be great if the start and end were the same? The geography of this planet keeps that dream just that. Personally, I have always been disappointed that Mt. Mitchell (highest point east of the Black Hills in South Dakota) didn't end up as part of the AT. I know all about how the Black Mountain Range is very different geographically from the Ridge the AT follows through NC and Tenn, but it is a significant point in the Eastern US. Considering how overuse is becoming a problem for th AT, maybe that is good for Mt. Mitchell. It has enough problems considering the Blue Ridge Parkway.

halibut15

03-29-2005, 11:02

I absolutely love the idea of the Pinhoti Trail. It (so far) goes through some beautiful country never seen anywhere on the AT. However, saying that it must be included in the AT may be kind of off. Sure, the name "Appalachian Trail" infers that the trail should cover the entire chain, and the true geographical terminus of that chain may not be at Springer, but the AT has been around for so long that the tradition surrounding the termini at Springer and Katahdin is so great that changing them now would ruin the tradition and history of the Trail. Technically speaking, if one wants the Trail to cover the ENTIRE chain, the one wanting to thru-hike would have to hike the whole Benton MacKaye Trail, since the BMK follows the Appalachian Chain as it splits in two and runs from Springer to the Smokies (the present AT follows the Eastern Ridge from Springer to the GSMNP). Doing this would entail hiking the Pinhoti, the whole BMK, somehow backtacking or shuttling to Springer, then hiking the whole At to Katahdin, then north to Gaspe. Hike your own hike, but aren't we all getting too technical? Enjoy whatever trail(s) you like, however you like to hike it, and leave them for others to do the same.

Oracle

03-29-2005, 14:41

Does anyone know whether the Pinhoti Trail in GA in Gordon County, around John's Mountain, has been cleaned up? Last time I tried to walk that part, it was in terrible shape, with very large trees blown down all over the trail (so much so that it made it very difficult to follow the trail) and a tremendous amount of overgrowth (some over your head on the actual trail). Has this been remedied or is it still in bad shape?

SGT Rock

03-29-2005, 14:59

I really like the Pinhoti, it is a good place to do a shakedown hike for the AT prior to getting there because the terrain is similar, it is furnther south and a bit lower so winter trips are not that bad, and I also have a little home love for Alabama trails.

MOWGLI

03-29-2005, 15:02

Oracle

03-29-2005, 15:23

Last I heard, the trail was in exellent shape. There is a trail run planned for APril, so the volunteers have been doing a great job keeping it clear.
That's great. I really like the John's Mountain/Keown Falls area, and if the trail is in good shape, I'll definitely be hitting it soon.

greenman

03-29-2005, 16:53

hey wookie,

i have hiked up to the al/ga stateline,at the time that is where the trail ended!got maps or road crossings you would kick down for the ga. pinhoti,or info on place to to get it!speaking of pinhoti i should be hiking up on cheaha this coming monday or tuesday,ran into horse with no name last time i was up there in december,and can say that all of al. pinhoti is in good shape right now!i knew i was a natural blue blazer being from bama,all blazes are blue on pinhoti,except for the old turkey paws!
anyways yeah!

It made sense to me that the trail should start in AL, even though I'm a GA boy.

But then I walked the Pinhoti. In AL, it is all a trail (now, thanks to the ongoing efforts by AL trail clubs), but in GA, the first stretch (>80 miles) until you reach the Cohutta's is not a trail at all. Most of it is road walking, along 55mph roads with people who are not accustomed to pedestrains (especially with long red beards and backpacks). The AT COULDN'T start in AL, because there is no real connector (yet)!

But with the large private landholdings by Island (I think that is the name) land management or something like that, plus many miles of private roads, it will be a LONG time until the AT extends that far southwest. Don't hold your breath.

What you CAN do is support the GA and AL Pinhoti clubs, and the SE Trails Innitiative. Right now the most help is needed in the Pinhoti to open up a walking corridor.

All that road walking gave me some horrendous shin splints :(