Miscellaneous cold weather questions

[amanda810]

I'm planning on beginning my NOBO hike Feb 15. I have a few questions regarding the cold that I'm hoping to get some help with:

1) Would gaiters be a useful purchase? If so, what height?

2) Are instep crampons, yaxtrax, surefoot get-a-grips, stabilicers, etc. necessary? If so, does anyone have any recommendations?

3) I have never done any cold weather backpacking... what do people usually hike in? How many layers on top of thermals do people usually wear? And what are they?

4) Also, not regarding the cold- what size water bladders are people carrying this year? I'm wondering if I should go bigger due to the drought.

Thanks!

[stranger]

Gaiters are useful for any type of hiking in my view, but particularly with snow. I would recommend OR crocs if they still make them. If the snow is deep than snowshoes are helpful, but if it's dry snow you will still sink. I've hiked hundreds of miles through snow and never have needed insteps, although they may have been useful a few times. I've found snowshoes to be much more helpful, and most have a basic crampon built in as well.

You won't need much layers, like any type of hiking you will generate plenty of heat, even in 11 degrees, but in winter when you stop you get cold within seconds so either layer appropriately, or be prepared to stop at the top for only a few seconds and start walking again to avoid the cold. I prefer to do that rather than mess around with constant layering.

I would avoid a bladder for winter hiking. It will be harder to deal with if it freezes up. You can bash the hell outta Nalgenes when they freeze without risk of failure, which is nice. You will need to sleep with you water to keep it from freezing as well, so with a down bag you need to be confident whatever your water is in will not leak!

[Egads]

Amanda 810,

I strongly encourage you to make some cold weekend hikes before your departure in February. You need to test your gear, your methods, & yourself. Perhaps you should car camp first so you can safely bail if you have a problem.

1. Gaiters are not necessary, but will help keep your feet drier a little longer. Take a look at these from Integral designs. http://www.integraldesigns.com/product.cfm?id=1&CFID=21081&CFTOKEN=21588872&mainproducttypeid=1

2. Insteps, yaktrax and the like are not necessary either, but can be helpful. Your biggest hurdle will be sheets of ice on the trail. You can hike around any dangerous spots if you encounter them.

3. You should be good hiking in cold weather with a wicking layer, an insulating layer, & a Rain / wind breaking layer, but you will need additional insulation when you stop or you will get cold quickly as stranger posted. I have hiked with low cut hiker shoes, a mid-weight smart wool bottom & top, short hiker pants, wool hat, OR windstopper gloves, and a fleece vest to warm up into windy mid teens. I use my Gossamer Gear micro-pore rain jacket and an OR windstopper balaclava if it is very windy. I also carry a down jacket and lightweight insulated bibbs for lunch / nights. I recommend a mix of wool, synthetics, & down for comfort & safety.

4. I carry 2 two liter Platys and a 24 oz bottle lately due to the dry conditions. You will probably have freezing in the Platy tubes or at the bite valve even after blowing the water out, but your platy should stay liquid if you fill it with hot water in the AM, you keep it deep inside your pack, and you sleep with it. The bottle is best stored & carried upside down so the ice is on the other end from which you drink.

5. You did not ask this but it is very important to carry a quality bag. It could save your life. I have a Mont Bell Super Stretch Down Hugger #0 for winter use. I can supplement this with a JRB Nest quilt if I am planning a weekend trip below the MB's range.

Egads

[SGT Rock]

I'm planning on beginning my NOBO hike Feb 15. I have a few questions regarding the cold that I'm hoping to get some help with:I've done a few winter hikes in that sort of weather, but I'm by no means an exxpert. Here is my experience...


1) Would gaiters be a useful purchase? If so, what height?
Depends on what you are wearing for footwear. If you are wearing low boots then it might be. If you are wearing running shoes or trail runners - then a pair of Goretex socks might work better for you than gaiters.


2) Are instep crampons, yaxtrax, surefoot get-a-grips, stabilicers, etc. necessary? If so, does anyone have any recommendations?
They are not neccissary, but something could help occasionally. I've hiked and had slipping trouble and busted my butt a few times without any extra stability help. This year I am going to try some Yaxtrax Pros but I am only going to put them on when needed.


3) I have never done any cold weather backpacking... what do people usually hike in? How many layers on top of thermals do people usually wear? And what are they?
That is very subjective. While one person is hiking in shorts (I've done that) others are in full Goretex and long underwear. It depends on how you handel cold weather as to what you need.

That said, what generally works is a base layer like shorts and T-Shirt because you really can be comfortable in that sort of thing when you are walking on a calm day. Over that have a layer of long underwear, then have a layer of windproof garments like a wind shirt and rain pants. Then have something extra warm you can add in camp.

Something you may find is when you are warm and walking you will sweat - sweat is bad, be prepared to be a little cold to avoid sweating. And when you get to camp you will also find you may not want to put on warm clothing right away because you are hot - be careful not to put off putting on some warm clothing too long because if you wait until you catch a chill - it will be harder to lose that chill which is something else you want to avoid.



4) Also, not regarding the cold- what size water bladders are people carrying this year? I'm wondering if I should go bigger due to the drought.

Thanks!
I avoid using water bladders in the winter because of tube freeze. I've had that and it isn't fun. The tubes are the first thing to freeze and often the last to thaw when carrying water. Now if you mean just a regular old carrying bladder - then what I reccomend is a 2+ liter Platy or something like it and a bottle or two. A couple of Gatoraide bottles are cheap and will work well. If they freeze, they usually slush up first so you can still drink from them and you can take them to bed with your. If they do freeze in camp but you have a stream, you can boild some water and add it to the bottles to thaw or even put the bottle in a pot of water to thaw it out as you boil the water.

[Tipi Walter]

February is one of the coldest, meanest months, for some reason winter won't let go in February. I did a 15 day backpacking trip last February just south of the Smokies and it never got above 32 degrees the whole time(one day I think it reached 40), so it wears you down, slowly. But it's the best time to be out as it thins off the tourists and brings a strong element of 'wilderness vibe', that peculiar stone-age feeling of being out 10,000 years ago with the woolly mammoths.

If I was you, and you have a yard, I'd set up my gear in the yard and start sleeping out as much as possible. Test your bag and pad, test your shelter system, do repetitive motions daily to get used to working in the cold with and without gloves, etc. Cold weather camping is mostly a mind-set, a built-up tolerance to, uh, cold weather, and the mind needs some reassuance that it and the body know what to expect and can work together without fear.

Some people in Idaho and Colorado and up in the Whites have a different take on snow camping, they regularly use snowshoes and/or crampons, even ice axes, and routinely face zero to -20 below conditions. But here in the southern appalachians these kind of conditions come rarely and the way the snow's been decreasing lately, well, probably the deepest snow will only be up between 4500 and 6500 feet.

I've never carried a good pair of crampons but there were times coming off a frozen mountain that they would have been helpful. You can still navigate freely without them, it just requires a bit more concentration and nimbleness. Like Egads said, you can hike around the worst stuff. How many times have I fallen on my butt? One good thing about snow, you can take a good fall and most times be cushioned.

As the Rock said, one of your biggest worries will be with sweat, exertion and the wetting of base and midlayers. DON'T WANT TO DO IT. This is a facet of backpacking most newbs don't get right or understand, but thru hard experience and bouts of hypothermia, old-timers know when to stop and de-layer, a very important discipline to have when winter backpacking.

And as Egads said, I would recommend either a good down jacket or down vest. A vest is packable and at the end of a long day of hiking, exhaustion often becomes a big part of early hypothermia, so a down cover in camp and the tent/shelter can help.

[johnny quest]

ive done a good bit of winter "camping" but not on the a.t.

be prepared to hike with less on, almost to the point of being cold, as rock said. use your gloves and hat as heat regulators. i.e. take them on and off alot. make sure you have a place to put them securely. losing a hat or glove can suck at this time.
most importantly have stuff to put on as soon as you stop for a break or the day or whatever. just as much as you dont want to sweat, you dont want to cool down without adding layers.
look at having to sleep with a water bottle to keep it thawed. put canteens upside down to keep the ice from the top.
i bought yaxtrax pros. if i dont use them i will send them home. i love snowshoes...but cant speak to their use on the a.t.

[JAK]

3) I have never done any cold weather backpacking... what do people usually hike in? How many layers on top of thermals do people usually wear? And what are they?

Not sure about the other questions but this I think I know a little more about. Be prepared for the worst case scenario, as in 50 year climate extremes for that month and location. Be prepared to get wet, and then be prepared to freezing temperatures, and wind chill, after you get wet. I think the most robust solution in general for cold wet climates is as follows:

1. skin layer - something like polypro. 4oz bottom. 5oz top.
For extreme cold this could be another wool layer. 8oz bottom. 10oz top.

2. wool layer - wool sweater. This could be anything from 8oz to 3 pounds.
If you upgrade your skin layer it could be less. You could also wear two, but I caution on that, because the real trick with this layer is to wear it all the time, so choose a weight that will not be to warm when worn alone. Also a dark colour so it will dry out faster in sun or from fire. This layer doesn't need to exist for legs, except the crotch area, where some sort of fleece or flannel boxers under hiking shorts do nicely to keep icicycles from forming in sensitive areas.

3. polyester fleece layer - 100wt fleece. 8oz bottom. 10oz top.
For extreme cold or deep snow you migh upgrade the pants to 200wt fleece. I wear my fleece top over my sweater now, as an extra layer when needed. If it is good quality fleece it will not hold much water, so it can be taken on and off and kicked around and stuff. Very important layer if you get fully immersed. The key here is that it must be top quality, meaning least water absorbing.

4. Wind Layer - Cheap Light Breathable Nylon Wind Pants and Jacket. 4oz bottom. 5oz top. Bottoms can be a heavier weight if you want them to take a beating, or if you can't find anything lighter. These are not just for wind. They are for controlling temperature and ventilation, and also for light rain and snow.

5. Rain Layer - Cheap Light Waterproof Nylon Poncho or Rain Gear.

Of course similar solutions for feet, footwear, hands and head. I generally don't carry any spare clothes, just a complementary mix of layers that can be worn all at once if neccessary. The exception is socks. Important to have 3 or 4 pair, to wear 2 pair while drying the third. Still different sizes and types though. Boots with removable felt liners are useful. If hiking in sneakers some way of improvising a mukluk should also be possible. Feet deserve special attention because they deal most directly with extremes. Head and hands are also very critical, especially head, but solutions are more straight forward.

[Deadeye]

You've got plenty of time between now and February to practice and figure out what works for you, but here's my 2 cents:

1) Something for traction is necessary. I recommend stabilicers - they're sturdy, easy to use, and plenty of grip on ice or packed snow. They're tough enough for a lot of miles. Yaktrax will wear out quickly if you walk on any rocks.

2) Please walk in the middle of the trail! Someone mentioned that icy stretches can be worked around, but that damages the trail. Trails are particulary susceptible to damage during freeze/thaw cycles.

[JAK]

2) Please walk in the middle of the trail! Someone mentioned that icy stretches can be worked around, but that damages the trail. Trails are particulary susceptible to damage during freeze/thaw cycles.That never occured to me. I stopped taking shortcuts on switchbacks once I realized how damaging it was, but I've always stepped around puddles and swampy bits and such. I will have to reconsider. Thanks.

[The Weasel]

If you've never done cold weather backpacking before, the tips above are good, and so are your questions. There are some more things you should consider:

1) How does your stove work in cold weather. Coleman stoves tend to work best, but may need firepaste or a little alcohol in the burner to preheat the generator. Cannister stoves don't work well until the cannister is warm - sleep with it and put it in a small pot of warm water as you get some to keep it warm.

2) Have twice as many socks as otherwise and "dry" them as much as possible each day/nite. They will get wet from walking no matter what. Consider the packaged foot/hand warmers that hunters use.

3) Carry extra analgesics (aspirin/tylenol/motrin) and take one at night to help prevent leg cramps, common in cold/wet hiking.

I'm sure others have more and better tips.

TW

[JAK]

I've never been much into the analgesics, except for back pain when that happens. Hasn't happened to me yet while hiking though. Extra socks is a good idea until you get a good system down for drying them. It is important to get a system down for drying them, and boots and everything else also.

[JAK]

Drinking lots of hot liquids is key. Below the tree-line I highly recomment the Kelly Kettle where fuel supply is unlimited. It can't melt snow however, but it delivers boiling hot water very fast otherwise. Access to water in winter can be a serious problem, so you have to be prepared to carry more, and melt snow, and deal with frozen water bottles, and treat or boil water from more dubious sources etc. I like to carry a wineskin in winter, in addition to a wide mouthed water bottle, and perhaps an aluminum flask also.

[Blissful]

I found that gaiters made my feet break out in blisters more. My feet got too warm with them. I got rid of mine by Neels Gap. They really are not needed. My son also mailed his home as well.

I also carried Yak trax, but never used them (even though we had snow twice). They got mailed home by Hot Springs. You get pretty adept at hiking in snow (and I am scared to death of falling!)

For hiking I used my long sleeve smartwool top. If it's windy, a balaclava is good to have, as well as a shell to cut the wind (like a wind shirt). Carrying a backpack, you get fairly warm. I wore convertible pants but if it's really cold you might need a layer of silk long underwear underneath.

I carried a 3 liter playtpus. And the hose will freeze - you might want an insulating hose cover and cap for it at the beginning of the hike if you go with a drink tube set up. I did use the cap cover part.

Snowpeak fuel canisters are better in the cold weather, I found (if you are using canisters)

[JAK]

Especially in winter I don't like to carry alot of weight that is not either insulation or food. You need a wind layer, and a rain layer, and a shelter system, but if most of your gear is metal and hard plastic and shell fabrics I think you need to reconsider. Down makes excellent sense for a sleeping bag because it is relatively easy to protect, but I think down clothing requires to much protection to make sense when you include the weight of all the extra protection with the weight of the down. Wool works. Not all wool, but a combination of wool, polyester fleece, cheap light nylon, blue foam pads, and perhaps down for the sleeping bag. I'm not a big fan of gortex, but I have a surplus CF army bivy that works extremely well. Full length full width closed cell pad is also essential in winter in my opinion. Ground protection is key, but you don't need a ground sheet. Anyhow, there are ways to save pounds, but I think what I have described is a way it can be done very robust and very cheap and still very light.

[The Solemates]

I'm planning on beginning my NOBO hike Feb 15. I have a few questions regarding the cold that I'm hoping to get some help with:

1) Would gaiters be a useful purchase? If so, what height?

2) Are instep crampons, yaxtrax, surefoot get-a-grips, stabilicers, etc. necessary? If so, does anyone have any recommendations?

3) I have never done any cold weather backpacking... what do people usually hike in? How many layers on top of thermals do people usually wear? And what are they?

4) Also, not regarding the cold- what size water bladders are people carrying this year? I'm wondering if I should go bigger due to the drought.

Thanks!

1) No
2) No
3) dont wear thermals on AT. wear pants and 1-3 layers up top.
4) dont carry bladder in the winter. freezes up easier; hose will stay frozen.

[Nearly Normal]

They will help that breeze up your britches leg.

[JAK]

Does anyone these days carry a decent pair of wool hiking pants or breeches?

[johnny quest]

i used to have a pair of german army wool hiking pants that were great for serious winter hiking. wish i still had them...and having them i wish i would still be able to fit in them. so...no.

[pitdog]

I found a pain of swiss army pants.These pants were awsome for winter hiking,skiing and cutting wood. I wore those pants out and need another pair.

[JAK]

I'll have to check our army surplus again thanks. We have an outdoor clothing store that carries them but they are wicked expensive and not quite what I want either. Something like these would be nice but in my size.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/1976-Swedish-Grey-Wool-Trousers-Pants-W-32-X-L-30-SW012_W0QQitemZ110187669377QQihZ001QQcategoryZ4081 QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

[nitewalker]

I'll have to check our army surplus again thanks. We have an outdoor clothing store that carries them but they are wicked expensive and not quite what I want either. Something like these would be nice but in my size.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/1976-Swedish-Grey-Wool-Trousers-Pants-W-32-X-L-30-SW012_W0QQitemZ110187669377QQihZ001QQcategoryZ4081 QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting


i have me a pr of those. i use them for ice fishing season..keeps the wind off....

[bigcranky]

I found a pain of swiss army pants.These pants were awsome for winter hiking,skiing and cutting wood.


Did these pants have the saw blade built in? From your post, they seem to be something like a Swiss Army Knife, so I was just wondering. :banana

[johnny quest]

and THAT is why the swiss army gets no respect.
well, that and their record.

[RadioFreq]

2) Have twice as many socks as otherwise and "dry" them as much as possible each day/nite. They will get wet from walking no matter what. Consider the packaged foot/hand warmers that hunters use.

Don't forget you can use your own body heat in your sleeping bag to dry socks overnight (assuming they aren't soaking wet) by taking them to bed with you.