View Full Version : Section or Thru?
kayak karl
12-07-2007, 11:43
If I do Harpers Ferry, W.Va., north to Katahdin; Harpers Ferry, W.Va., south to Springer Mountain. To avoid crowds. I don't think this is a Thru-hike in the PURE sence. What do yous think.
Any other suggestions!
I posted NOBO_SOBO? last week.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-07-2007, 11:45
I think it is a flip-flop thru.... but follow your heart.
What do yous think.
No.
But gonna be an argument.
Gray Blazer
12-07-2007, 11:47
Ise think it be. Is you think it ain't?
I think it is a flip-flop thru.... but follow your heart.
Yeap, do what you want regardless.
If I do Harpers Ferry, W.Va., north to Katahdin; Harpers Ferry, W.Va., south to Springer Mountain. To avoid crowds. I don't think this is a Thru-hike in the PURE sence. What do yous think.
Any other suggestions!
I posted NOBO_SOBO? last week.
A flip-flop hike can be a wonderful way to expeirence the trail.
Heck, I wouldn't mind trying that at some point myself.
Just enjoy the hike. That is what matters in the end.
I like the idea of starting from the closest place to home, where ever that is, and hiking in both directions. Not neccessarily at the same time mind you.
max patch
12-07-2007, 12:04
Of course its not a thru hike -- hiking from one terminus of the trail and hiking to the other terminus -- but so what?
By the way, you can have as much or as little socialization on the trail as you want. You don't have to hike with a mob unless you want to.
kayak karl
12-07-2007, 12:09
i realy want to do SOBO but dont want to wait till june. this will let me leave in april and avoid the crowds in south. the # of people i hear about going north in april. I dont think i could deal with that! so your right. HIKE MY OWN HIKE
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-07-2007, 12:09
A question: As I understand it, a thru-hike is considered hiking the entire trail in a single year regardless of the order in which any section is hiked? Do I have this wrong?
Just a Hiker
12-07-2007, 12:14
Don't worry about what anyone around here thinks! Hike your own hike.:)
Just Jim
Bare Bear
12-07-2007, 12:16
If you pass every white blaze or make an honest attempt to do so (we all miss at least one I'll bet) then its a thru hike. Check the AT Website for the definition, thats why they only give 2000 miler recognition...the rest is politics. :) Go have fun and HYOH.
buckowens
12-07-2007, 12:17
A question: As I understand it, a thru-hike is considered hiking the entire trail in a single year regardless of the order in which any section is hiked? Do I have this wrong?
F.D.,
I am with you as I thought it was hiking the entire trail in one season regardless of the flip or the flop. I suppose the ATC would be the authority for this question. I am too anal to do it that way, but that's just me...
Don't know, but I think if you can hike your own hike you should also be able to def your own nition. If you have to and want to you can also make your own plaque.
You could also to Harpers to Katahdin, then Springer to Harpers.
But if you hiked all that facing towards Katahdin that would that be a No No. :)
kayak karl
12-07-2007, 12:26
Don't know, but I think if you can hike your own hike you should also be able to def your own nition. If you have to and want to you can also make your own plaque.
I'll just have
"Harpers Ferry, W.Va., north to Katahdin; Harpers Ferry, W.Va., south to Springer Mountain"
Tatooed on my arm :)LOL
Actually I got that wrong didn't I. LOL.
Harpers to Katahdin, then Harpers to Springer, always facing towards Katahdin.
That would be a No No. :)
Pedaling Fool
12-07-2007, 12:43
A question: As I understand it, a thru-hike is considered hiking the entire trail in a single year regardless of the order in which any section is hiked? Do I have this wrong?
As I understand it, this would not be a "thru-hike". A thru-hike is when one begine his/her hike at one terminus and travels to the other terminus in one hiking season, without interruption, i.e. a contiuous journey until the other terminus is reached.
However, I'm not sure if this is stated anywhere on the ATC site as an official definition. Just never cared enough to research, so call it what you want.
As others have said: do whatever, to make your hike what you want out of your hike.
In all honesty, who gives a crap what others think about your propsed itinerary if they're not your hiking partner? As so many have said before me, hike your own hike. You'll be glad you did. Just in case you're interested (And I'm sure you are), here's a linky (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.848729/k.6FA1/Alternative_Itineraries.htm) to the ATC's list of "alternative inineraries" for thru-hiking the AT. Best wishes for a happy and safe hike, no matter what you choose.
kayak karl
12-07-2007, 12:48
In all honesty, who gives a crap what others think about your propsed itinerary if they're not your hiking partner? As so many have said before me, hike your own hike. You'll be glad you did. Just in case you're interested (And I'm sure you are), here's a linky (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.848729/k.6FA1/Alternative_Itineraries.htm) to the ATC's list of "alternative inineraries" for thru-hiking the AT. Best wishes for a happy and safe hike, no matter what you choose.
TY Thats where i got the hike from. And i can use AMTRAC to get there. Didnt want to put anybody out.
Pedaling Fool
12-07-2007, 12:56
I stand corrected. I just saw, using Hammock Hooch's link, that the ATC does not define a "thru-hiker".
bigcranky
12-07-2007, 13:04
There's an inherent problem with defining a "thru-hike" as "begin at one end and hike to the other without interruption."
What's an interruption? If I take a half day in town to resupply I'm probably still doing a thru-hike, but if I take off a weekend to see the sights in DC as I pass by, maybe that's over the line. A week off to heal a bum knee? No patch for you!
Oh, wait, the ATC doesn't care how you do it, you still get the same patch. Hmm, think I'll keep knocking out a few hundred miles a year and see if that works.
Karl, you just hike the way you want, and you're a thru-hiker. Enjoy.
Pedaling Fool
12-07-2007, 13:13
There's an inherent problem with defining a "thru-hike" as "begin at one end and hike to the other without interruption."
What's an interruption? If I take a half day in town to resupply I'm probably still doing a thru-hike, but if I take off a weekend to see the sights in DC as I pass by, maybe that's over the line. A week off to heal a bum knee? No patch for you!...
You're right. But this problem is inherent to all definitions, someone will always distort it just enough to make a case to fit their goal(s). I guess that's why a lawyer will always have a client.
max patch
12-07-2007, 13:23
There's an inherent problem with defining a "thru-hike" as "begin at one end and hike to the other without interruption."
What's an interruption? If I take a half day in town to resupply I'm probably still doing a thru-hike, but if I take off a weekend to see the sights in DC as I pass by, maybe that's over the line. A week off to heal a bum knee? No patch for you!
Oh, wait, the ATC doesn't care how you do it, you still get the same patch. Hmm, think I'll keep knocking out a few hundred miles a year and see if that works.
Karl, you just hike the way you want, and you're a thru-hiker. Enjoy.
No no no.
"2,000 milers" (the "patch) are not necessarily "thru hikers".
A 2,000 miler is one who hikes the entire trail. Doesn't matter if its in one uninterrupted trip over 6ish months or 1 week a year over 25 years.
A thru hiker is one who starts at one terminus and hikes until they reach the other terminus. If they hike all the trail then they qualify as a 2,000 miler.
Common misunderstanding.
minnesotasmith
12-07-2007, 13:24
A question: As I understand it, a thru-hike is considered hiking the entire trail in a single year regardless of the order in which any section is hiked? Do I have this wrong?
You have it exactly correct. For anyone whose position is otherwise, just ask them what part of the Trail they hiked that a flipflopper would not, and should hike, as part of a legitimate thruhike. ;)
Lone Wolf
12-07-2007, 13:27
slackpackers don't qualify for anything
sherrill
12-07-2007, 13:51
Get on the AT at wherever. Hike. When you're done hiking, you're thru.
Jack Tarlin
12-07-2007, 14:02
I'm curious as to exactly where Max got his allegedly definitive description of what constitutes a thru-hike.
Karl: I've hiked the Trail in its entirety eight times. In my opinion, if you hike the Trail in its entirety in one year, i.e. one basically continuous trip, then it doesn't matter a rat's ass whether you do half of it Northbound and half of it in the other direction. The key thing is that you expect to hike the entire Trail in the course of your journey.
Sure sounds like a thru-hike to me.
Go have a great time and stop worrying about what other people might think of your plans. At the end of the day, what other people think isn't worth two cents.
4eyedbuzzard
12-07-2007, 14:03
I think anybody who hikes the entire trail in whatever amount of time and in whatever order has accomplished something pretty special.
Thru or flipflop in a years time is certainly a wonderful accomplishment.
2000 miles over 30 years while having a family, career, etc is also a wonderful accomplishment.
One's no better or meaningful than the other.
buckowens
12-07-2007, 14:06
I think anybody who hikes the entire trail in whatever amount of time and in whatever order has accomplished something pretty special.
Thru or flipflop in a years time is certainly a wonderful accomplishment.
2000 miles over 30 years while having a family, career, etc is also a wonderful accomplishment.
One's no better or meaningful than the other.
Very well said.
max patch
12-07-2007, 14:06
I
Go have a great time and stop worrying about what other people might think of your plans. At the end of the day, what other people think isn't worth two cents.
No one cares or is judging what the hiker is going to do.
He asked a question.
It was answered.
Many people after answering even added that it didn't matter what his hike was called.
Your admonishment is not needed in this situation.
I make my own rules. My AT "thru-hike" took 2 years, some sections southbound, some sections slacking, with a few blue blazes thrown in.
I'm one of the people that could care less about these things, but whose to say taking a ride from Katahdin to Harpers Ferry is any different than a northbounder hitching into a town 10 miles off the trail and back, or getting off to go to a wedding for 5 days.
Footslogger
12-07-2007, 14:14
If I do Harpers Ferry, W.Va., north to Katahdin; Harpers Ferry, W.Va., south to Springer Mountain. To avoid crowds. I don't think this is a Thru-hike in the PURE sence. What do yous think.
Any other suggestions!
I posted NOBO_SOBO? last week.
========================================
Personally, I don't think a thru-hike is directionally sensitive - pure sense or not. If you cover the distance you've hiked the hike.
'Slogger
Jack Tarlin
12-07-2007, 14:18
Oh, I get it, Max.
Your passing judgment on his trip......which is exactly what you did.....is OK.
But my admonishing you for doing this is not.
What's up with that?
And by the way, it wasn't necessarily admonishment. I merely expressed curiousity over where you got your absolute definition of what constitutes a thru-hike.
It sounded very official and authoritative.
So please tell us which official and which authority said this and where.
Cuz I don't remember ever reading this.
Anywhere.
The Old Fhart
12-07-2007, 14:24
Emphasis mine:
ATC-“These seven scenarios outline possible variations from the typical Georgia-to-Maine thru-hike. Sample itineraries are generally designed for a six and one-half month hike. This allows for the average thru-hike time of six months and two weeks for travel and a little extra time off between legs of the journey. Sample itineraries are designed to optimize terrain, weather, and crowd avoidance. …..”
If you read the ATC examples (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.848729/k.6FA1/Alternative_Itineraries.htm) you will find these ‘sample itineraries’ include “flip-flop” and “leap frog”, etc.. The ATC says that any of these variations are a legitimate thru hike the same as any other. Nowhere does it say that these variations aren't thru hikes, just that they differ from the typical.
Note that just because a SOBO hike isn't mentioned in the quote above doesn't mean they're saying that isn't legitimate either, just not typical.;)
stacy324
12-07-2007, 14:42
There's an inherent problem with defining a "thru-hike" as "begin at one end and hike to the other without interruption."
What's an interruption? ...
A few years ago I met a hiker in Erwin that took a week off at Miss Janet's and decided he needed to start over.
A few years ago I met a hiker in Erwin that took a week off at Miss Janet's and decided he needed to start over.
That's nuts. My interuptions lasted from a week to 6 months! Am I a thru-hiker? If it ever did, after 10,000 miles it doesn't matter. I'm out there to enjoy myself.
max patch
12-07-2007, 14:56
Jack, no I didn't "pass judgement" on the mans hike. I answered his question and said it didn't matter what his hike was called.
I already have a full time job correcting the Dinos misstatements, but I'll give you a couple quickies since you asked.
The definition is the original definition since the days of Shaffer. Internet hikers are attempting to change the meaning of the term, similar to the attempt to change the definition of 2,000 miler as one who hikes "most" of the trail rather than "all" of the trail. But you wanted something in "writing" so here ya go:
Wingfoot:
"2,000 miler is a person who has hiked the ENTIRE distance between termini of the official (white blazed) AT, either by thru hiking or section hiking."
"Thru hiker is traditionally a person who is attempting to become a 2,000 miler in a single, continous journey by putting on a backpack, leaving from one terminus of the Trail, and hiking essentially unassisted to the other terminus."
Just a sec. Lot of haters out there. How about something from "Walking With Spring" by Earl Shaffer (the first thru hiker for those of you in Rio Linda, Californina) published by the ATC:
"On August 5, 1948, Earl V Shaffer earned a place in the archives of the Appalachian Trail. He was the first person to hike the entire 2,100 mile footpath FROM ONE END TO THE OTHER, WITHOUT INTERRUPTION. In the language of hikers, he became the first AT thru hiker."
I have to get back to work now.
You're welcome.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-07-2007, 15:04
Emphasis mine:
If you read the ATC examples (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.848729/k.6FA1/Alternative_Itineraries.htm) you will find these ‘sample itineraries’ include “flip-flop” and “leap frog”, etc.. The ATC says that any of these variations are a legitimate thru hike the same as any other. Nowhere does it say that these variations aren't thru hikes, just that they differ from the typical.
Note that just because a SOBO hike isn't mentioned in the quote above doesn't mean they're saying that isn't legitimate either, just not typical.;)The Old Fhart, thank you for answering this with factual information from the ATC and link to the source. That should settle the matter.
The Old Fhart, thank you for answering this with factual information from the ATC and link to the source. That should settle the matter.
What if you're hiking a different trail? :-?
Jack Tarlin
12-07-2007, 15:09
Um, Max, the quote you thoughtfuly provided from the ATC completely conflicts with the ATC quote that O.F. gave us......which appears on the ATC's website, so it presumably represents their current feelings on this.
And your other "authority" seems to be Dan Bruce.
With all due respect, Max, who put him in charge of this?
And I loved your blaming "Internet Hikers" for all of this confusion and for attempting to twist this around and change "classical" definitions.
Um, note to Max. How much hiking did your authority, Mr. Bruce, do between 1992 and the present day? Is it not true he spent most of his time in those years running and administering a website?
Careful who you all an "Internet Hiker."
Some of them happen to be people you might actually admire.
The Old Fhart
12-07-2007, 15:16
Sly-"What if you're hiking a different trail?"It would appear that this thru hike question is only a problem with some, and only on the A.T., but I could be wrong there. From everything I've seen about the PCT there isn't a 'blue blaze' problem either.;)
max patch
12-07-2007, 15:25
The Old Fhart, thank you for answering this with factual information from the ATC and link to the source. That should settle the matter.
Not so fast...
From the ATC:
How does ATC define thru-hiking?
We don't.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.788745/k.9CE2/FAQ_ThruHiking.htm
You are all wrong...and I'm right.
Move along, nothing to see here.
These aren't the posts you are looking for...
The Old Fhart
12-07-2007, 15:50
Max Patch-"......How does ATC define thru-hiking? We don't."
Correct, they don't define it. What the quote says is:"These seven scenarios outline possible variations from the typical Georgia-to-Maine thru-hike." They are referring to what most hikers refer to as a "typical thru hike" or de facto thru hike. The ATC never says that any of the other variations of an thru hike don't qualify under the same generally understood definition either (doing the entire trail within a year). Their having hiker's sign a form that they have made a "good faith" effort to hike the entire trail also gets them out of the squabble about who has, and who hasn't, hiked the trail 'legitimately'.
But, more importantly and logically, if they don't define a thru hike, then claiming a thru hike is one specific type of hike, e.g., end-to-end only, can't be a valid definition either.:-?
minnesotasmith
12-07-2007, 17:26
slackpackers don't qualify for anything
What if your pack you use for slackpacking is heavier than someone's regular pack? My slackpack (especially in Maine in the 1st half of Oct., and in VT after that) was twice the size of some thru's full packs.
That would lead to saying that it's pack size that determines whether or not it's a legitimate thruhike (aside from how much of the Trail one hiked). In that case, can I get credit for TWO thruhikes, since my pack was twice the weight of many other hikers' packs for most of the way? :) Too, that would mean that a number of people could NEVER become thruhikers, no matter how many times they hiked the whole AT. (Wolf23000 and Ray Jardine coming to mind.)
It can't be spending every night during a thruhike on the Trail, either; hardly anyone (no one I've ever heard of) does that.
So, LW, how do you personally determine who does, and does not, get to honestly IYO have completed a thruhike?
Lone Wolf
12-07-2007, 19:33
So, LW, how do you personally determine who does, and does not, get to honestly IYO have completed a thruhike?
hike in 1 direction, no slackpacking, no more than a day off in towns
warraghiyagey
12-07-2007, 19:37
hike in 1 direction, no slackpacking, no more than a day off in towns
Thank god I don't ever consider what anyone else thinks about how I hike. Never did never will.
Lone Wolf
12-07-2007, 19:44
Thank god I don't ever consider what anyone else thinks about how I hike. Never did never will.
sure you do. and don't be like 99% of weenies that don't carry thier pack up katahdin.
minnesotasmith
12-07-2007, 19:55
hike in 1 direction
I always did that, except when I'd get lost for a while. Most of the time northward, but sometimes SOBO. ;)
no slackpacking
Shouldn't be an issue if my pack was larger than even one considered-legitmate nonslackpacker's backpack. If my hiking didn't count on account of pack size, neither did theirs.
no more than a day off in towns
So, no one who went to all of Trail Days or Billville is a thruhiker IYO? What about if they stay there for an injury (as Crutch or Boulder did), or to get an emergency gear shipment in (as I did in Hot Springs, when both my POS Dana Bridger pack and trail runners failed on me just before town)?
Pedaling Fool
12-07-2007, 20:09
MS, give it up, the ATC does not define the term "thru-hike". Therefore, there is no "official" definition.
minnesotasmith
12-07-2007, 20:15
MS, give it up, the ATC does not define the term "thru-hike". Therefore, there is no "official" definition.
I was asking LW what he thought. I'm as aware as you are about the ATC's position.
Pedaling Fool
12-07-2007, 20:20
I was asking LW what he thought. I'm as aware as you are about the ATC's position.
Sorry.
Attention LW: MS is requesting your assistance.
Lone Wolf
12-07-2007, 20:21
I was asking LW what he thought. I'm as aware as you are about the ATC's position.
post #49
minnesotasmith
12-07-2007, 20:25
post #49
How many pounds of backpack does it take IYO to not qualify as slackpacking?
4eyedbuzzard
12-07-2007, 20:27
And your other "authority" seems to be Dan Bruce.
With all due respect, Max, who put him in charge of this?
Okay, now that is funny.
And in reading this thread I'm beginning to see why the thru-hiker murder rate is so high.:rolleyes: :D :banana
The Old Fhart
12-07-2007, 20:33
Minnesotasmith-"How many pounds of backpack does it take IYO to not qualify as slackpacking?"
Anything less than my pack in this photo (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12915&original=1&c=member&imageuser=1531) is a slackpack.;)
warraghiyagey
12-07-2007, 21:05
Why would you go all the way up there with a pack full of styrofoam peanuts?
:D
Oh and I notice it wasn't raining - or even look like it was going to.
:p
The Old Fhart
12-07-2007, 21:22
Warraghiyagey-"Why would you go all the way up there with a pack full of styrofoam peanuts? :D Actually besides my gear I have Minnesotasmith with 6 rolls of TP.;)
Warraghiyagey-"Oh and I notice it wasn't raining - or even look like it was going to. :p Oh but it had been raining and the trees were still wet. You can still rain and mist in the left background.
warraghiyagey
12-07-2007, 21:29
[quote=The Old Fhart;466718]Actually besides my gear I have Minnesotasmith with 6 rolls of TP.;)
quote]
Now that's funny!!!!!:)
minnesotasmith
12-08-2007, 18:59
Actually besides my gear I have Minnesotasmith with 6 rolls of TP.
I've been known to help out fellow hikers unprepared for what they're facing in the woods. ;)
minnesotasmith
12-08-2007, 19:01
Anything less than my pack in this photo (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=12915&original=1&c=member&imageuser=1531) is a slackpack.;)
How many POUNDS (not cubic inches) was that backpack, OF? :D
Just want to know what the standard is IYO.
The Old Fhart
12-08-2007, 20:09
Minnesotasmith-"How many POUNDS (not cubic inches) was that backpack, OF?:D
Just want to know what the standard is IYO.What you carried and what I was carrying in that photo (1988) isn't typical. Probably the average thru hiker loses more pack weight in the first 30 miles then on the rest of the trip. I'd guess that the average pack weight used to be somewhere around 40 pounds and now with people trying to go ultralight, and sometimes without essential gear, the average is closer to 30 but I've never actually checked scientifically. The pack in the photo was 50-55 lbs.