View Full Version : What if you carried zero plastic?
I know that not all plastics are bad, but just for fun I am curious how we might get by without them and how much weight would be added, while still being prepared for leave no trace style hiking. Obviously materials like leather and wool and silk would take care of alot of business, but what about stuff like sleeping pads? Rain gear? What was the lightest wind layers and rain layers and sleeping systems before plastic?
How light do you think these could be if non-plastic? What material?
1. Wind layer.
2. Rain Gear.
3. Sleeping Pad.
4. Sleeping System.
5. Shelter.
6. Backpack.
7. Water carrier.
How light do you think you could make your skin out weight for down to say 20F.
Appalachian Tater
12-07-2007, 21:35
Problem is you would have to convince someone to cash checks without ID or else get cash in maildrops.
No polyester??? Gonna be tough, man!
I think my precious blue foam pad would be my greatest loss.
Don't leave home without it. :D
4eyedbuzzard
12-07-2007, 21:43
The only available fabrics would be natural fibers like cotton, wool, silk, etc and if you exclude natural plastics like rubber, boots would have to have leather soles as well. Canvas and leather makes for some pretty heavy, wet, and unconfortable packing.
I would like plastic made in the USA. ;)
warraghiyagey
12-07-2007, 21:46
You could do it all with three deer-skin rolls - about 25 pounds.
warraghiyagey
12-07-2007, 21:46
I would like plastic made in the USA. ;)
Yeah, Chinese plastic has lead in it.
Probably.
Plastic Schmastic. It's in almost everything!
It sure is difficult to go places and buy American, you really have to work at it, and hit the web more often and buy there as well. :)
The only available fabrics would be natural fibers like cotton, wool, silk, etc and if you exclude natural plastics like rubber, boots would have to have leather soles as well. Canvas and leather makes for some pretty heavy, wet, and unconfortable packing.That's for sure. Don't disagree. Just wondering where the biggest losses might be, in terms of trying to find a suitable replacement.
I think the sleeping pad would actually be the biggest loss. I don't think the pack would be much of a problem. You could likely do something like a gearskin, using a light waterproofed and fireproofed canvas that would also be your tarp or bivy. You would also need some sort of rain cape that would also be the other of your tarp or bivy. Wool is wonderful. No problems there. But you would have to use it underneath you also and that would add some weight. The sleeping system could be Down quilt maybe, covered in silk maybe, but I would want a wool blanket under that. Not all that sustainable, but the old timers used to make blankets woven out of 100 rabbit skins that were warmer and lighter than Hudson Bay Blankets, though only lasting one winter.
Two Speed
12-07-2007, 22:33
Ummm, BIC lighters would be out, too. Back to the ol' Zippo or a flint and steel, I guess. Footwear would be substantially different, too.
We could send a message to the science community...
"We be hikers. We not want hurt environment. Please bake a eco-helpful plastique. Thank u. Oh, please do not drive SUV. Thank u."
Good points. Wooden matches are in though. As are candles to help you save matches. Flint and steel is good backup. Footwear can be leather, though I agree its harder to find today without some plastic. Also soles are an issue. Without rubber might as well go traditional moccasins or mukluks I guess. I would also morn the loss of cheap light nylon. I think those are the biggest losses for me. Soles, blue foam sleeping pad, and cheap light nylon. Thanks for all the feedback. It was mostly intended as just a mental exercise, but I think it would be fun to do one trip each season without plastic. Cheers.
...I think it would be fun to do one trip each season without plastic. Cheers.
Um, how would we carry our trash out? Burn it?
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-07-2007, 23:19
::: Terrified Dino thought y'all were talking about her credit cards ::::
One way would be to not carry so much trash in. More to the point perhaps is how would we package our food. I tend to buy and pack bulk food, minimum 0.5 pound increments. But what would I use for containers? This is an area I hadn't really thought of. I use a lot of plastic bags. Oatmeal for instance. Canvas bags? Birch bark? Metal tins perhaps. Tough one for sure.
I think perhaps a combination of small tins and wax paper, and perhaps a silk bag to bundle it all together. Cheers.
Liking this preview post routine. :banana
warraghiyagey
12-07-2007, 23:21
::: Terrified Dino thought y'all were talking about her credit cards ::::
We were!!!:dance
We were!!!:danceYup. That's how we were planning on paying for all this new kit!!! :dance
One way would be to not carry so much trash in. More to the point perhaps is how would we package our food. I tend to buy and pack bulk food, minimum 0.5 pound increments. But what would I use for containers? This is an area I hadn't really thought of. I use a lot of plastic bags. Oatmeal for instance. Canvas bags? Birch bark? Metal tins perhaps. Tough one for sure.
I think perhaps a combination of small tins and wax paper, and perhaps a silk bag to bundle it all together. Cheers.
Liking this preview post routine. :banana
Interesting problem. I think I put just about everything in pastic bags, except my cookware and water bottles. Oops, what about water bottles?
Keep previewing. :cool:
4eyedbuzzard
12-07-2007, 23:40
Damn, we're spoiled. Other than rubber, 100 years ago none of this stuff existed.
For winter my water bottles would be as follows:
2 aluminum corked flasks - thought you'd get me with the plastic top eh. :)
1 wineskin (eau de goat guts) - good for carrying close to body though.
I've found plastic very valuable on trails -- especially as a way to replenish funds
I've found plastic very valuable on trails -- especially as a way to replenish funds
Cool, which shelters have ATM's? Do they also have wi-fi?
You may laugh but when I went on my first hiking trip (around 1959) my external frame pack was made of light canvas on a wooden pack frame and my water "bottle" was litteraly a goat skin (stomach) covered in leather with a leather thong (to hang it) and a wooden stopper. My knife was an old 6" belt knife with deer horn handle. Canteen was a blanket covered Aluminum one with metal cap (had cork inside for a seal). Sleeping system consisted of an inflatable rubberized canvas mattress and woolen blankets. "Normal" pack weight at that time was 60# - 70#. Even at the age of nine, my pack probably weighed close to 40#. Cooking was purley over an open fire, and yes matches were used to start it.
Seems like the ghost stores told around the campfire at night were better then but with the newer lighter weight gear available, I would never go back to the old days. :p
Isn't that interesting how much of your stuff we already covered. I suppose alot of it is because we still see alot of it in army surplus and so forth. So what was the goat skin like to drink from. I suppose it was just like leather once cleaned out, which is not all that different than plastic, being a polymer of sorts. Thing is bacteria haven't really evolved for modern plastics, yet. I've seen in old movies people carrying a glass bottle, usually with wine in it. :)
Really don't remember what the water from the goat skin tasted like, except good (though warm) after hiking for a couple of hours. I suppose that one of the reasons they don't exist much anymore is because of the likelyhood of bacteria growing in them since there was no way to open them up to do a thorough cleaning. Yep, they went the same way as the canvas water bags that we use to hang off our car front bumbers (contents cooled by evaporation).
Late 70s my older sister gave me a wineskin for christmas when she was in university. It was plastic on the inside my then but nice leather on the outside. They were pretty common, but don't see them much today. Anyhow I loved the thing and got a lot of use out of it, cross country skiing mostly. She told me they were mostly used for Southern Comfort and Orange Juice at college football games, but I was more into skiing across the Kennebecasis River back then. Good times. I think I'll find me another, or perhaps make one. Many old ways are better.
Luke 5:36-39
5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Critterman
12-08-2007, 01:45
You may laugh but when I went on my first hiking trip (around 1959) my external frame pack was made of light canvas on a wooden pack frame and my water "bottle" was litteraly a goat skin (stomach) covered in leather with a leather thong (to hang it) and a wooden stopper. My knife was an old 6" belt knife with deer horn handle. Canteen was a blanket covered Aluminum one with metal cap (had cork inside for a seal). Sleeping system consisted of an inflatable rubberized canvas mattress and woolen blankets. "Normal" pack weight at that time was 60# - 70#. Even at the age of nine, my pack probably weighed close to 40#. Cooking was purley over an open fire, and yes matches were used to start it.
Seems like the ghost stores told around the campfire at night were better then but with the newer lighter weight gear available, I would never go back to the old days. :p
Where you wearing your Daniel Boone coonskin cap all the boys had back then ?
warraghiyagey
12-08-2007, 01:47
And matching cap pistols with a little red roll of pop tape loaded in each?:p
We were!!!:dance
Yup. That's how we were planning on paying for all this new kit!!! :dance
yall better hide before a dino comes back and sees this, your lives might be in danger especially w/ christmas shopping to do (unless the dino's have finished shopping already) :eek: lol
What about water purification, most pumps and filters would be out. Would the iodine tablets qualify?
CoyoteWhips
12-08-2007, 09:35
I don't know where it is, but I recall seeing an inventory of Thoreau's backpack for a hike up Wachusett Mt. I don't think there was any plastic in it. Only thing I remember clearly was a bag to stuff with moss for a pillow. I think he had a buffalo skin ground pad under his tent.
Materials like silk and down would be light, but expensive -- not exactly the mountain man experience.
Part of the benefits of modern fabrication is that it makes it easier to move with low impact. You don't need to build a big warming fire or chop up branches for shelter. Not so bad when the US population was sparse, but devastating if we all camped in the old style today.
CoyoteWhips
12-08-2007, 09:37
Luke 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
How would Jesus camp (HWJC)?
The midstate trail runs thru that area.
Tipi Walter
12-08-2007, 10:22
You need to find that website of those climbers who re-enacted Mallory's last climb to Everest. They wore wool and silk and used vintage gear of 80 years ago, all serviceable today.
I made a rabbit skin balaclava about 10 years ago while I was up at the tipi and sometimes I take it on my winter backpacking trips when I know the temps will be very low. It used 3 hides and is my warmest piece of gear next to my down bag. The Paiute Indians in the high desert made long jackets of rabbit fur, but instead of laying the hides out flat and sewing them together, they rolled each hide and sewed them side by side like a series of ropes. Very warm and wind proof. And light.
The Inuits mastered cold weather camping without plastics and they had an intricate system of caribou skins in a layered pattern along with a complex arrangement of foot layers in their mukluks.
Norman Clyde was a hardcore backpacker in the Sierra Nevadas many years ago, he routinely carried a 90 pound wooden framed pack with a trump line and used wool shirts and pants, and stayed warm in a cold, pre-plastic world.
copythat
12-08-2007, 10:33
And matching cap pistols with a little red roll of pop tape loaded in each?:p
NOW you're talking!
(but doesn't this belong in the "guns on the at" thread? ;) )
CoyoteWhips
12-08-2007, 10:38
The midstate trail runs thru that area.
It's my back yard. Midstate trail, Montachusett trail, Fitchburg State Forest, Wachusett Mt.; lot's of good hiking 'round here!
Thats awsome,I'm at the southern end,and its a tough little trail.
4eyedbuzzard
12-08-2007, 11:03
How would Jesus camp (HWJC)?
LOL
And how would Jesus hike (HWJH)?
Would he take the ferry at the Kennebec?;)
LOL
And how would Jesus hike (HWJH)?
Would he take the ferry at the Kennebec?;)
Nope he can walk on water remember? :D
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-08-2007, 11:19
yall better hide before a dino comes back and sees this, your lives might be in danger especially w/ christmas shopping to do (unless the dino's have finished shopping already) :eek: lol::: Dino tail seen swinging wildly at those with Dino plastic :::
Dinos shop on-line and are done (unless Target doesn't get one toy that is on backorder)
Do have to get the adults in the family a few more things.... off to shop on-line.
What about water purification, most pumps and filters would be out. Would the iodine tablets qualify?
Purify water? We didn't back then. Even now I am not so sure it is really necessary if water is collected carefully. If you really needed to though, the best way is still to boil.
Dances with Mice
12-08-2007, 12:11
There is one piece of plastic that is an important part of most of my equipment. I could not imagine getting new gear without it.
Mastercard.
Nope he can walk on water remember? :D
Yah. But the water is moving. He would have a hard time keeping his balance. And even if he did, he would end up far down stream. I think he would have taken the canoe, though standing up if Steve would let him -- and of course speaking parables.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-08-2007, 12:17
You silly boys -- JC hiked with Moses - Moses extended his staff and the Kennebec parted and they walked across on dry land.
Or he just stop the flow of the river till he was across. Thats one of the cools things about being the creator of the universe, you can do stuff like that!
I met a young couple on the JMT n 2006 who had made EVERYTHING they wore and carried, including their sandals. It can definitely be done. If you do what they did, you better look good in suede however. They did. Wish I'd taken a photo.
WOW: I never thought about it. I am totally amazed by the amount of plastic I am carrying. Assuming nylon as plastic.
Soles of my shoes, Handles on my trekking poles, Velcro on my kilt, stiffner in my nylon ball cap, , ,
Ok, listing what is NOT plastic: stove & cookset & stuff sack (SS is a wool sock), Kilt, boot uppers, bandanas, knife, most of my first aid supplies. Yep, that was a shorter list.
Could I do it? I think so, silk hammock, wool blankets, etc.
Food for thought & a good thread!
4eyedbuzzard
12-08-2007, 14:20
Yah. But the water is moving. He would have a hard time keeping his balance. And even if he did, he would end up far down stream. I think he would have taken the canoe, though standing up if Steve would let him -- and of course speaking parables.
Parables as in, "can a (wealthy) man with a Camelback fit though the eye of a needle?"
Just going with the thought provoking stuff for Tin Man.;)
:D
Just going with the thought provoking stuff for Tin Man.;)
:D
Oi vey. I am definitely NOT going to be able to go to any gatherings now.
My post (#24) was only to show that it was possible to hike/camp sans plastic using common store bought equipment. I may be wrong but I think the Coleman Company was the last major company to get away from using canvas exclusively in their tents and backpacks, and that didn't happen until the 20th century. Seems like their equipment is still heavier than anyone elses (they STILL don't get it).
As to whether we can still hike/camp sans plastic? Yes, it's possible, but not pratical. To find "old" equipment to meet the criteria would be possible but I would certainly be wary of its' integrity simply do to degredation caused by time.
Could one fabricate "new" equipment using "old" materials such as canvas? Not likely, for I believe that even a light canvas suitable for things like tents or backpacks would be coated with a stain/water repelent coating durring manufacturing like silicone, which is a type of plastic.
Good thread JAK, worthy of deep thought. Thanks.
Dirtygaiters
12-08-2007, 15:31
How light do you think these could be if non-plastic? What material?
1. Wind layer.
2. Rain Gear.
3. Sleeping Pad.
4. Sleeping System.
5. Shelter.
6. Backpack.
7. Water carrier.
How light do you think you could make your skin out weight for down to say 20F.
I think you'd have to stop thinking in terms of your above list if you wanted to go without plastic. Oiled wool wovens or felts might be your best bet for warmth and water -resistance. If you had a separate wool wind layer and a separate wool rain layer, that would be redundant and would quickly add too much weight to your pack. For that matter, you should probably forget everything you know about picking gear for backpacking.
Sleeping pad? It would have to be something like a thick sheepskin or the furry skin of another animal with thick fur and it would have to double as your sleeping bag and shelter as well. Want to carry a canvas tent? Have fun!
I don't think we'd be talking about light enough gear to hike with, frankly. Frontiersmen used horses if they wanted to carry all the crap most thru hikers carry (that is, not in terms of weight, but in terms of function). Or-they just wore their sleeping gear as a big bear skin coat and shot their food so they didn't need to carry much else. Were backpacks even around back then?
For your list, I'd suggest:
1. Wind layer, Rain Gear, Sleeping Pad, Sleeping System, Shelter: a big 25 pound sheepskin cape with an oiled or laminated leather finish that could be worn ventilated like a traditional kilt while hiking, or rolled up into for sleeping. Get under a cedar tree or a rock overhang if you want shelter from the rain. Keep in mind that wool insulates when wet, but it also gains a lot of weight in water so expect a 25 pound sheepskin cape to swell to 35 pounds if and when it does get wet.
2. Backpack: just a leather or cotton sling under your arm for carrying stuff like a flint firestarter, ammo for your gun, a paper bag (whose corners are glued with hoof glue) full of dried food, a homemade flashlight containing no plastic or plastic-containing batteries, some drugs (to help you deal with the pain of hiking under a 30 pound wet sheepskin rug), a knife (for gutting your food), maybe a harmonica...
3. Water carrier: animal bladder in a leather canteen
4. Gun - for shooting most of your food. Almost all the food at the grocery store has plastic wrapping and that won't do at all!
nhalbrook
12-08-2007, 20:11
Read Camping and Woodcraft by western North Carolinian Horace Kephart. Tho ca100 years old as valid a guidebook as any in print today. Would be interesting to hike equipped as he did.
Dirtygaiters
12-08-2007, 20:42
Read Camping and Woodcraft by western North Carolinian Horace Kephart. Tho ca100 years old as valid a guidebook as any in print today. Would be interesting to hike equipped as he did.
Since this thread is an active place to talk about the subject, could you post a summary of just what you're referring to? Honestly I don't have time to go buy a book, read it, and see if it is even interesting to me. We could talk about the topic right now instead.
Jan LiteShoe
12-08-2007, 21:02
This is one of the best articles I've read on any subject, much less plastic.
Not for the faint-hearted:
http://www.bestlifeonline.com/cms/publish/travel-leisure/Our_oceans_are_turning_into_plastic_are_we.shtml
To make this trail related, most of the plastic washes in from land.
Plastic, not diamonds, is forever.
Bootstrap
12-08-2007, 22:13
Damn, we're spoiled. Other than rubber, 100 years ago none of this stuff existed.
I still don't understand how Lewis and Clarke made it without ziploc bags ....
Jonathan
I still don't understand how Lewis and Clarke made it without ziploc bags ....
Jonathan
I haven't researched this, but I think they had horses to drag their stuff.
Auntie Mame
12-08-2007, 22:39
In cold weather travel it works to use Eqyptian cotton anoraks for windbreakers. Snowshoeing and such. That kind of cotton is like very light, tightly woven bedsheeting, super wind resistant and breathable.
Is there somewhere you can get these kind of anoraks online :)
I'd like to see what they look like.
4eyedbuzzard
12-08-2007, 23:15
I still don't understand how Lewis and Clarke made it without ziploc bags ....
Jonathan
Tough SOB's. They carried umbrellas too. Go figure.
This is one of the best articles I've read on any subject, much less plastic.
Not for the faint-hearted:
http://www.bestlifeonline.com/cms/publish/travel-leisure/Our_oceans_are_turning_into_plastic_are_we.shtml
To make this trail related, most of the plastic washes in from land.
Plastic, not diamonds, is forever.
There are no pristine islands left thanks to water bottles, plastic bags, and flip flops. The inhabited ones are usually cleaner cause people keep all the junk picked up off of the beaches.
Dances with Mice
12-09-2007, 01:28
Here's a gear list (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lewisandclark/resources.html)containing no plastic that was used on an extended trek.
Here's a gear list (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lewisandclark/resources.html)containing no plastic that was used on an extended trek.Huh, wonder how they carried that sailboat.
Imagine they watched as it was dragged over log rollers.
Anyone remember the movie that involved the "Nylon Bomb?"
canerunner
12-09-2007, 10:06
Huh, wonder how they carried that sailboat.
The keelboat was rowed/sailed/towed upstream from St. Charles, MO to the falls of the Missouri. The expedition was about 30 Men (I'm running on gray ROM right now, I can look up the exact numbers). The men towed the keelboat upstream by rope lines from shore when neither sail or oars were strong enough to move the boat against the current.
Incredible cross-country hike! Three years in the wilderness (with hostile tribes all around them) from St.Charles to the mouth of the Columbia River and back. Only one man of the company died in route, and that was due to acute apendicitis(sp?).
Oh, and no zaro days to speak of, and no town visits for resupply! :banana
Auntie Mame
12-09-2007, 10:23
Smile, One or two leads re: cotton anoraks, Empire Canvasworks which makes light canvas ones, and a woman named Sally Robbins ffrom North Haven Island in Maine, who custom sews that sort of thing. You might also just try sewing a prototype with a 400 count cotton sheet and a pattern you like. Mame
Dances with Mice
12-09-2007, 10:28
Oh, and no zaro days to speak of, and no town visits for resupply! They had two sets of several zero months and they visited many towns to buy supplies.
Is there somewhere you can get these kind of anoraks online :)
I'd like to see what they look like.
An Anorak is sort of longish hooded, unlined jacket without buttons or zippers. You pull it on over your head. I haven't seen a cotton one in a couple of decades or more, but I was wearing an LL Bean version the one time I reached the summit of Katahdin in winter.
A good cotton anorak is made with long fiber cotton and woven in a manner that allowed it to shed water. The theory was that the first drops of rain would swell the cotton fibers, making the anorak waterproof.
The theory was better than the practice. Mine would keep my arms, shoulders and chest dry. But it always leaked where my pack and pack straps touched the fabric. It was better for a walk in the rain, than for a backpack in the rain.
I'm sure some specialty company still makes the genuine cotton variety, but I don't have a clue as to where they might be located. The LL Bean version later was made with 60-40 cloth -- nylon and cotton, or polyester and cotton. Either way it didn't work and was abandoned years ago.
A century ago light weight pack tents were made of the same 100 percent cotton fabric. They shed rain as long as nothing touched the fabric. But once you touched the wall of the tent it would leak and continue to leak until the rain stopped. I think they called the cotton raw material Egyptian cotton.
Weary
[quote=Smile;467636]Is there somewhere you can get these kind of anoraks online :)
I'd like to see what they look like.[/quot
Try this place Smile: Empire Canvas Works at WWW.empirecanvasworks.com (http://www.empirecanvasworks.com)
I still don't understand how Lewis and Clarke made it without ziploc bags ....
Jonathan
Yeah, but had they had them? They would have been living it up :D
Kind of like asking a modern man or woman if she or he would like to live like it was 1807 - not. Nothing like giving up showers, dishwashers, washing machines, flush toilets, indoor lighting. Refrigrators. Ice cream. Cars.
I think I like 2007 just fine! I don't know how I'd survive without my Sleep Number 5000 bed :p
I have always wondered how it would feel to sleep with animal pelts as my blanket.
Then I always remember......animal pelts+lack of hygiene+animals still alive in house or travel staying warm with you?=mmmmmm! Fleas and lice!
Woooo!