#$%&

[sum41punk91]

Over the summer i bought a Therm - a - rest compressible pillow, it worked great and it was nice and comfortable, after a few months of getting my head funk on it i decided it was time to give it a wash... i followed the directions on the lable and when i pulled it out, there was a slice in the upper left corner, i assume from the aggitator, so i gave cascade designs a call and they told me to send it in and they would replace it... after spending the 5 dollars to ship i get a call a few days later saying that the pillow was clearly melted in the affected area and i could pay 20 dollars to have it replaced or fixed. needless to say im pretty pissed.:mad: ive been happy with them since i started using their products, in fact i had an issue with a thermarest pad and they fixed for free albeit shipping... I am extremely dissapointed and will never buy any thermarest, msr or platypus product again.

[JAK]

Definitely a bonehead move on their part, in my opinion. I am not sure this is any consolation but one of the most comfortable sleeps I've ever had was when I took the small pillow from inside our small couch pillow and used in in my sleeping bag, inside the sleeping bag hood. It was a very cold night and it fit very nicely in their with my head and moved with me as I turned. Haven't quite got it to work so well since but you might be able to get it to work for you. On very cold nights I seem to be able to sleep without tossing and turning, as long as I am warm enough. Warm ground pads are key. Blue foam pads are warmer than those old thermarests anyways, and don't break. Make room for them. Cheers.

[warraghiyagey]

I roll up my fleece for a pillow. No extra $. No extra problems. Bummer about your pillow though. When unhappy, walk away. Good choice.

[Tinker]

Cascade Designs made a nice pillow shell 20 years back, may still make it now. Very light flocked material, probably polyester. Stuff a down vest into it and have a down pillow on the trail. Couldn't have weighed more than an ounce. If you have a fleece vest, just roll it up as a pillow at no increase in pack weight. I'm surprised at Cascade Designs' response. Bad PR is expensive!

[take-a-knee]

Cascade Designs made a nice pillow shell 20 years back, may still make it now. Very light flocked material, probably polyester. Stuff a down vest into it and have a down pillow on the trail. Couldn't have weighed more than an ounce. If you have a fleece vest, just roll it up as a pillow at no increase in pack weight. I'm surprised at Cascade Designs' response. Bad PR is expensive!

That pillow shell is very nice!

[sum41punk91]

i was really pleased with the pillow,it has a nice polyester shell...and short of bringing two huge pillows car camping, that is the most comfortable i have been... im just apalled by the customer service

[Hooch]

I just wash mine my hand with my sleeping bag, saves problems like tha tfrom cropping up in the first place. Cascade Designs did make a boneheaded move though. They should have replaced your pillow for you. What's one of those cost them? A couple bucks at most? If I were you, I'd consider writing a long, detailed letter to them and include your refusal to further purchase other CD products.

[mudhead]

I have an old pad. Old. I put the garden hose to it when needed.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Not the first time I've heard bad things about Cascades Designs' customer service. While they make some great products, when something goes wrong........ Let the buyer beware.

[Sly]

Well, was it melted or sliced from the agitator?

[Sly]

Not the first time I've heard bad things about Cascades Designs' customer service. While they make some great products, when something goes wrong........ Let the buyer beware.

Really, I sent back a 10 year old thermarest with a leak and a $10 check for repair costs. Also, as more of a joke, I threw in a flatten Z-rest. I got back a new thermarest, a new Z-rest and the $10 check.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Really, I sent back a 10 year old thermarest with a leak and a $10 check for repair costs. Also, as more of a joke, I threw in a flatten Z-rest. I got back a new thermarest, a new Z-rest and the $10 check.Sly, glad to hear you had a good experience, but situations like what was posted can and do happen. If a product says "toss in washing machine' to clean, then it shouldn't get destroyed in a washing machine that isn't destroying other items IMO YMMV

[Sly]

How do you melt a thermarest by throwing it in the washer? :-?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

How do you melt a thermarest by throwing it in the washer? :-?I had a flannel-back vinyl table cloth get caught under the agitator once -- the friction melted a hole in it. I'm assuming this is what happened with the original poster's pillow.

[Sly]

I guess that could happen. I'd give them a call.

[Sly]

So what other bad things have you heard about their cusomer service? Taking too long to repair thermarest and Whisperlites at Trail Days?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

So what other bad things have you heard about their cusomer service? Taking too long to repair thermarest and Whisperlites at Trail Days?That and citing abuse as the cause of failure when it seems unlikely abuse was the culprit.

Experienced backpackers know not to abuse inflatables - they will sleep on the ground or hard shelter floor without them. This poster isn't the first I've heard who has used the product according to directions and then been accused of abusing the product.

Experienced backpackers will not knowingly subject tent poles to undue stress because they know that a tent pole failure during a trip is a major headache. When I was considering buying the MRS Fling, several wrote me privately to say that this had happened to them and they were forced to buy replacement poles.

We have a Whisperlite International for really cold weather backpacking and for when I'm feeding a crowd in the backcountry. I've had to call customer service about it twice... they seemed more intent on being sure I knew the problem was my fault (and it may well have been) than helping me find a solution. When I called them, I was willing to pay for replacement parts or repair if needed. Before I sent it to MRS, another hiker more familiar with stoves volunteered to clean the stove and told me an internal part was not in proper alignment. Not sure how I could have caused that so the problem may have been a factory defect. It has worked like a charm since he fixed it.

[Cuffs]

What are the directions for washing? I cant imagine it says put it in a top loading washer... front loader maybe, but think its probably more like hand-wash...

[Sly]

What are the directions for washing? I cant imagine it says put it in a top loading washer... front loader maybe, but think its probably more like hand-wash...

My thoughts too. But if they're not specific, sometimes it takes a little common sense.

[sum41punk91]

The tag said wash in washing machine (not specific about top loader or front loader) with warm water on delicate... i did exactly that, and im assuming what happened is exactly what frolicking dinosaur said.. caught under the aggitator and melted it... either way the washing instructions need to be clear that one shouldnt use a top loading washer, either way its going to cost me 20 bucks for a new one or 5 bucks to get my ruined one back

[ARambler]

On a test hike this spring, I got a cigarette burn through my pack, compactor bag, and Thermarest pad. It would have been a great deal if they would have replaced it for $20. However, I don't think that would have been fair. Good guarantees really help hikers and if lots of hikers return their equipment due to abuse, eventually companies will change their policies. How does $20 compare to the retail price? Anyway, I bought a new Thermarest for my sobo.

At Trail Days, MSR replaced my two year old Simmerlite pump because one of the gaskets was leaking a little. (I was surprised they couldn't find extra gaskets.) I think MSR has good customer service and Thermarest and Simmerlite stoves are extremely durable.

US Air lost my backpack, on the way to Maine. I was able to get all my backup equipment shipped to me. The only things I had to buy was a new Thermarest and an alcohol stove.

Tough Luck, but I think your case is definitely in the gray area.
Rambler

[Sly]

On a test hike this spring, I got a cigarette burn through my pack, compactor bag, and Thermarest pad. It would have been a great deal if they would have replaced it for $20. However, I don't think that would have been fair. Good guarantees really help hikers and if lots of hikers return their equipment due to abuse, eventually companies will change their policies. How does $20 compare to the retail price? Anyway, I bought a new Thermarest for my sobo.

This is just a pillow. Did you try to repir your thermarest?

[ARambler]

This is just a pillow. Did you try to repir your thermarest?
I used the Thermarest one night. I taped the hole, which helped for less than 5 min. It was very uncomfortable night, but I got a decent amount sleep. I've heard good things about the repair kits. However, this is a 3mm hole, not a pin prick. Also, a patch that lasted 3 months on a thru hike would have been a really bad choice for me.

Finally, I use a 2+L Platypus for a pillow. I find it pretty comfortable, and it is a good backup water container. It does make some noise when you roll your head on it.
Rambler

[dessertrat]

Customer service in our world has declined to the point where I usually don't bother to try to return a small item-- I expect to get the John Cleese dead parrot treatment from the warranty people.

[sum41punk91]

A brand new pillow is like 23 dollars... they say that they are giving me a deal lol, ARambler carry preglued bike-tire patches when you backpack makes a great patch for thermarests. honestly its really not about the money, its just that i am highly dissapointed with them due to the fact that i am so pleased with CD's items, ex. my stove, sleep pad, pillow, and platypus... I figure it isnt worth trying tog et repaired if it aint expensive

[Sly]

I used the Thermarest one night. I taped the hole, which helped for less than 5 min. I've heard good things about the repair kits. However, this is a 3mm hole, not a pin prick. Also, a patch that lasted 3 months on a thru hike would have been a really bad choice for me.


I've seen patches last years...


honestly its really not about the money, its just that i am highly dissapointed with them due to the fact that i am so pleased with CD's items, ex. my stove, sleep pad, pillow, and platypus... I figure it isnt worth trying tog et repaired if it aint expensive

I'd call back and ask to talk to someone else.

[Dirtygaiters]

Design Salt/Cocoon will be releasing an inflatable pillow with synthetic insulation in the Spring that they say will weigh 3 ounces. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/cocoon_pillow_by_design_salt_orsm07.html

If you use an Exped downmat (or have ever dreamt of using one), you could also take a look at the Exped pillow pump as it is supposed to be only about 4 ounces and could double as an inflator for your mat.

[nitewalker]

How do you melt a thermarest by throwing it in the washer? :-?

maybe this occured late on a saturday evening :-? :-? ....:banana cheers:banana

[Frosty]

I paid seven bucks for a three-pack of these. Have about 40 nights on the first one and no signs of leakage (they weigh .85 ounces each).

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/flexair_plus_ultralight_pillow.html

I use a piece of clothing for a pillow cover. Works swell.

[Manach]

What's one of those cost them? A couple bucks at most?

Doubtful it's even that much. The fill is bits of open cell foam, a byproduct of the production of their inflatable matresses. Smart product that one.

[superman]

My thermarest lasted for the entire AT plus some other hikes. Then I started the CDT. The very first night we camped near a trough, water source. When I layed down a short time later I noticed that the thermarest was low on air. So I added air. I did that a few times during the night. The next morning I could see that I'd camped on a mass of burrs with big nasty prickers on them. My thermarest had about a hundred holes in it. I continued to use it but I stopped wasting time adding air. I bought a new thermarest and I'm more careful where I put it.
I should have been more careful.

[sum41punk91]

Im going to call monday, as they dont open until then, and ask to speak to higher management... im not even worried about the money im just going to ask that they change the washing instructions and be more specific

[Tin Man]

I am just wondering if every manufacturer replaced every product every time there is an issue without question, how much things would cost or if they would still be in business. :-?

[Bob S]

I am just wondering if every manufacturer replaced every product every time there is an issue without question, how much things would cost or if they would still be in business. :-?



I’m sure they would have people abuse it, but why should honest people have to suffer?
I quit buying MSR stuff long ago, I found their stoves lacking quality. It sounds like it’s more then just stoves.

[Sly]

I am just wondering if every manufacturer replaced every product every time there is an issue without question, how much things would cost or if they would still be in business. :-?


Good, that should keep you occupied for some time. :rolleyes: Hopefully, until next spring.

[Harry Cruise]

"Good customer service," in spite of what many people think, doesn't mean the same thing as "give me free stuff and absolve me of any responsibility for my own actions."
I worked in the warranty department of a footwear manufacturer for years and it's unbelievable what people think they deserve. I hate to say it here, but AT hikers were some of the worst. Every spring we'd get calls like this: "These lightweight running shoes wore out after just 500 miles. It's the only shoes I have, so you have to drop ship me another pair before you can look at these to see if they're actually defective. Oh, you can't just ship out free shoes based on my word alone? You say 500 miles is about the lifespan of a pair of running shoes? Well then, I'm going online then to tell the world what terrible products you make and what terrible customer service you have."
OR has an extremely generous warranty policy. If what you relate here is true*, I'm sure they'd take a second look at the problem with your pillow.

*No offense intended and I'm not saying this is the case here, but it was my experience that people tended to be less than 100% accurate when they went online to tell the world about how terrible the company I worked for was.

[Franco]

Having spent thirty years in photographic retail I have to say that when it comes to repairs you learn a lot about human nature. The worst abuse we used to get from customers was always related to what I call "user error", typically for us water/liquid damage, sand or impact damage. Suffice to say that most people employed to take in repairs ( in our shop and the three others up the road) very rarely lasted more than a year. Unfortunately a lot of customers do not understand that guarantee and insurance is not the same. There are goods sold with an unconditional guarantee, inevitably they are a lot more expensive than the competition. Otherwise goods are essentially covered for normal wear and tear for the first owner and for a limited amount of time.
Often I see here suggestions that basically involve lying to the manufacturers. Once you do that then you also lose your right to expect the maker to be honest with you. How about asking yourself first : what would I do if I were the manufacturer ?
And no, I don't work in retail any longer, also don't sell anything, I just believe in fair play.
Franco

[mudhead]

I am just wondering if every manufacturer replaced every product every time there is an issue without question, how much things would cost or if they would still be in business. :-?

LL Bean.

I am sure they might question some things. I have never tried to be "unfair."

What I get a charge out of is lifetime warranties. Like socks. After I thrash them, I can't see returning them.

Good luck talking with the rep.

[sum41punk91]

im not saying i had no part in it, and i should have thought two steps ahead but all the directions said were machine wash warm/gentle nothing else about aggitators and im 99% it was the aggitator, but it has been my experience that some warranty inspectors tend to be sure to make it the customers fault and not replace items... and that is with all things not just backpacking gear

[EWS]

"Good customer service," in spite of what many people think, doesn't mean the same thing as "give me free stuff and absolve me of any responsibility for my own actions."
Really :eek:


i should have thought two steps ahead
There you go.:rolleyes:

[Harry Cruise]

I’m sure they would have people abuse it, but why should honest people have to suffer?


The tyranny of the lowest common denominator sucks. If it weren't for the dishonest people, manufacturers would be able to take customers at their words and freely send out replacements products.
I used to really hate the fact that people who were willing to understand our warranty policy and accepted responibility for things they did themselves would politely take "no" for an answer, while the people who acted like complete dipwads and raised holy heck and threatened to slander our company online and to their friends eventually would get whatever they wanted, just so they'd shut up and go away.

[dessertrat]

I am just wondering if every manufacturer replaced every product every time there is an issue without question, how much things would cost or if they would still be in business. :-?

I think they call that company L.L. Bean.

[Chache]

I had a flannel-back vinyl table cloth get caught under the agitator once -- the friction melted a hole in it. I'm assuming this is what happened with the original poster's pillow.
Maybe, but how did he get your flannel-back vinyl table cloth in his washer?

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

::: Dino lightly whacks Chache with tail :D :::

[ARambler]

To my post for not repairing a large hole in my pad:

I've seen patches last years...


[To sum41punk91's hole in his pillow: ]
I'd call back and ask to talk to someone else.

What is your point??? I guess when you have 8000 posts you need 3 points. 1) ARambler is an idiot for not repairing his pad. 2) sum41punk91 would be an idiot for repairing his pillow. 3) Tinman is an idiot and should go out of business.

I think sum41punk91 understands that this is a gray area and will make the best of the situation.

Good Luck,
Rambler

PS: This year, I bought a front loader washing machine because: a) zero %: due to energy costs, (the bane of being an engineer) b) 89%: due to energy savings. This was my last chance to buy a washer for the next 20 years, and I wanted to do my part to conserve energy for that period (no, I didn't say screw the electric company.) c) 10 %: more gentle washing/better washing for one cycle. d) 1%: better resale value of my house when I'm dead.??? I think sum41punk91 was real unlucky that his washer ruined his pad. (I was really unlucky to get a cigarette burn after giving up a pipe in 1977.) It would probably be a good idea to recommend front loader or hand washing on the pillow tag. Hopefully, no WB'ers (with less than 5000 posts) will not have this problem in the future. Ranting is Good!

[Tin Man]

Good, that should keep you occupied for some time. :rolleyes: Hopefully, until next spring.

Um, does anyone read my signature? I am not even remotely associated with George "AntiGravity" Tin Man.

[sum41punk91]

Absolutely rambler, i understand that it is completely possible that it melted from the aggitator, i just get frustrated that i am being completely honest and they think i am just trying to get a free pillow. Im just going to get my pillow shipped back, fix it and ask that they make it more clear for future customers, and so long as they are reasonable and courteous i will continue to buy cascade design items.

[Critterman]

Frankly, I don't see how the company can be responsible for damage to your pillow that your washing machine did. I am not trying to be a smart $%^ or give you grief. If they sold you something defective that is totally different but your complaint seems to be that because they said it was washable then they are at fault if your equipment tears the thing up. I am sorry but I just have to agree with the company.

[warraghiyagey]

Frankly, I don't see how the company can be responsible for damage to your pillow that your washing machine did. I am not trying to be a smart $%^ or give you grief. If they sold you something defective that is totally different but your complaint seems to be that because they said it was washable then they are at fault if your equipment tears the thing up. I am sorry but I just have to agree with the company.
That's just straight up logic. It is a bummer that this happened for sure. But when a towel comes out of the washer or dryer frayed I don't think it's the fault of the towel company (or the sock company if pairs went in and singles came out).
I empathise but manufacturer's shouldn't be held accountable for events with the end user that are beyond their control.

[Blissful]

I just wonder how a washing machine could have melted it. (???) Doesn't that take heat? I know I have had clothes stretched out and knotted up when the agitator goes bad. So that's a new one.

Anyway, since they said no (which is too bad) probably have to swallow the $5 sent to mail it and hopefully get another one at a good price somewhere.

[Blissful]

Customer service in our world has declined to the point where I usually don't bother to try to return a small item-- I expect to get the John Cleese dead parrot treatment from the warranty people.

Actually we have made out very well with returns, we returned our Nalgene canteen for a split seam and they sent us not one but two replacements. We also have had returns made on Big Agnes, Mountain Hardwear and a headlamp company (forgot which one). They have been very helpful.

[Tin Man]

I would hope one incident does not forever turn one off to a particular company. Escalating an issue appropriately can help clarify company policy and is not unusual or a bad thing either. Consistently poor service is another story.

[Franco]

Keeping in mind my previous rant about warrantees, my usual way of dealing with this kind of gray area used to be : if the customer is nice about it ( as indeed sum41punk 91 seems to be), I would do my best to make him happy. Maybe not a free replacement, but a replacement at my cost or less would be my offer. After all I want to keep a nice customer and following a happy resolution they end up being the most loyal. I had grandsons of some of my original customers come in just because their granddad and their dad did.
However, the abusive type of customer always got the same message from me : please shop elsewhere and never come back. Funnily enough, I have had several coming back with : but I like shopping here !!!
The problem of course is that no matter how wrong the customer is, other shoppers ( not the regulars...) tend to take sides with the shouting individual.
Anyway, sum41punk91, here is a virtual replacement for a nominal $10 fee.
Franco

[Sly]

To my post for not repairing a large hole in my pad:
What is your point??? I guess when you have 8000 posts you need 3 points. 1) ARambler is an idiot for not repairing his pad. 2) sum41punk91 would be an idiot for repairing his pillow. 3) Tinman is an idiot and should go out of business.


What's the number of my posts have to do with anything?

1) I was just pointing out, rather than buying a new one, you could have properlly patched it. It wasn't that big a hole. And I didn't call you an idiot, but if the show fits..

2) I never suggested sampunk patch his pad.

3) I wouldn't know.



:rolleyes:

[Sly]

Um, does anyone read my signature? I am not even remotely associated with George "AntiGravity" Tin Man.

Yeah, I knew that. I know the real Tinman.

[Tin Man]

Yeah, I knew that. I know the real Tinman.

this tinman is real too. ;)

[sum41punk91]

Thank you franco. What they said is "We could send you a discounted pillow for 15 dollars and 5 dollars shipping or fix your pillow for fifteen dollars with 5 dollar shipping" What they didnt mention is that i can go to bill jacksons and buy one for about the same price. its not very expensive so im not going to be rude by any means.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Yeah, I knew that. I know the real Tinman.
this tinman is real too. ;)WB is blessed to have two very nice Tin Men. We have a Lion King - so were are Straw man, Dorothy and Toto?

[sum41punk91]

WB is blessed to have two very nice Tin Men. We have a Lion King - so were are Straw man, Dorothy and Toto?

They were color blind and went down the red road

[Tin Man]

They were color blind and went down the red road

Dang! And I thought we were blue blazing.

[sum41punk91]

Well i called Cascade designs today, talked to the same guy and asked him
to send me back my pillow as is, he goes, "well you went through the
trouble of sending it in and your washing machine probably did it, so we're
gonna fix it for you, it should be in the mail around thursday."

Gives me hope for man-kind :sun

[Sly]

"well you went through the
trouble of sending it in and your washing machine probably did it, so we're
gonna fix it for you, it should be in the mail around thursday."

Gives me hope for man-kind :sun

Excellent. I guess Cascade Designs isn't so bad afterall. :D

[Franco]

Last night I slept on my hot pink (macho version) Cascade Design Prolite 4.
That reminded me that my original one was swapped after I found some tiny holes (hard to find even in my bathtub with soapy water) that caused a very slow leak." So Cascade are not that bad after all...."
Franco

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

::: Dino revises opinion of Casade Designs based on new infomation :::

[sum41punk91]

Lol Frolicking. so did i, besides it would have been a shame to replace all my cascade design stuff because i love it soo much, and from what i can tell they arent even chrging me shipping...

[mudhead]

Lol Frolicking. so did i, besides it would have been a shame to replace all my cascade design stuff because i love it soo much, and from what i can tell they arent even chrging me shipping...

Let all know when it rolls in, you might find you are a happy camper.

[Frosty]

WB is blessed to have two very nice Tin Men. There are three Tin Men?

[Frosty]

Well i called Cascade designs today, talked to the same guy and asked him
to send me back my pillow as is, he goes, "well you went through the
trouble of sending it in and your washing machine probably did it, so we're
gonna fix it for you, it should be in the mail around thursday."

Gives me hope for man-kind :sunYea! I love it when the world works out!

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

There are three Tin Men?The third Tin-Man made one post back in 2005. I don't know him - he may be a nice fellow as well.

[sum41punk91]

Let all know when it rolls in, you might find you are a happy camper.

it came in this afternoon, looks great, patch is off colored but who cares its
going to be under my head. Im going to call the guy who i dealt with
tomorrow and thank him and let him know that everything is geat :)

[envirodiver]

I've had good experiences with all the outdoor Manfs. that I have had dealings with. I've dealt with Sierra Designs, The North Face, General Ecology (1st need filter) these guys really rocked sent me extra stuff for my trouble and all that was wrong was that a pump handle broke, and ZZ Manf (zip stove).

I was always honest with them and fairly treated by them.

[dessertrat]

The third Tin-Man made one post back in 2005. I don't know him - he may be a nice fellow as well.

You can share usernames? Cool.

I'm going to be Frolicking-Dinosores.:banana

[whitefoot_hp]

Well i called Cascade designs today, talked to the same guy and asked him
to send me back my pillow as is, he goes, "well you went through the
trouble of sending it in and your washing machine probably did it, so we're
gonna fix it for you, it should be in the mail around thursday."

Gives me hope for man-kind :sun
honestly, if you put one of my products in the washer machine and wanted me to fix it because the machine broke it, i would laugh at you.

[mudhead]

honestly, if you put one of my products in the washer machine and wanted me to fix it because the machine broke it, i would laugh at you.

I think his tag said machine washable.
I am glad he is happy.

But you can laugh at me, I'm eating cookies and watching my butt bubble.

[whitefoot_hp]

---------> HA HA mudhead your butt is growing. :)

[sum41punk91]

honestly, if you put one of my products in the washer machine and wanted me to fix it because the machine broke it, i would laugh at you.

if the tag didnt say machine wash, i would laugh at me, wouldnt have even called them