View Full Version : Precautions for a winter hike...
slamajama
12-13-2007, 10:06
Precautions for a winter hike....?
Just got some new gear and would like to use it for a few days hike after the holidays. I live NYC and have done sections from Algo-Fahnestock State park either mid to late summer, never in winter as of yet, and I would like to continue to add sections north.
Is using a hammock (i have a hen ultra expl) unrealistic? What can I expect a nights sleep will be w/o a tent, and wat can i do for more warmth?
Also clothing, ill prob sweat in almost anything, rather not buy a new winter hiking wardrobe...any suggestions?
thxs
mike
sasquatch2014
12-13-2007, 10:40
I just did a bit of winter hiking the biggest thing is layers Layers Layers. you will just keep adjusting until you find what works. Plan on your pack being heavier than normal. I hung with my hammock but mine is a CLark and has the insulationg pockets under it. Not sure when you are planning but several of us are planning for a winter hike in Mid January possibly in NY if youy want to jump on that thread.
Keep the feet dry if possible.
Don't let your boots or water freeze.
Eat a good meal before you go to bed. It'll help you stay warm.
Don't let people tell you wool isn't good to wear. I love a good rag wool sock in the winter.
If you gotta pee at night, get up and get it over with. Lying awake for hours with a full bladder doesn't make sense, even though many of us have done it.
doggiebag
12-13-2007, 10:50
Keep the feet dry if possible.
Don't let your boots or water freeze.
Eat a good meal before you go to bed. It'll help you stay warm.
Don't let people tell you wool isn't good to wear. I love a good rag wool sock in the winter.
If you gotta pee at night, get up and get it over with. Lying awake for hours with a full bladder doesn't make sense, even though many of us have done it.
Or you can pee in a gatorade bottle brought along for that purpose ... no need to step out the confines of the tent or hammock.
Lone Wolf
12-13-2007, 10:51
that's lazy and disgusting
doggiebag
12-13-2007, 10:53
It's warm and convenient.
taildragger
12-13-2007, 10:58
Good insulating pad.
I've been sleeping out the last couple of nights out here so I can see how my tent and bag do in colder weather, I was amazed at how much heat got sapped by the frozen ground that my feet rested on, but I guess thats just part of getting used to down over synthetic.
Sleep with a bottle of water, if its bloody cold (does it really get bloody cold all the often in southern NY?) take a piss bottle to sleep with you.
Layers and dryness are always important.
I suggest a beard, its part of my layering system. Keeps the face from getting that wind chilled feeling and it isn't as hot as a balaclava or a neck gaiter.
Synthetics, wool, and fleece are very nice.
Be EXTREMELY careful with your down, dethawing and getting your down wet will be miserable if not life threatening, maybe a micropuff vest instead of a down vest if you are hovering around the freezing temps.
Hot liquids, very nice.
And I'll repeat the words of dry, unfrozen footwear and feet. I've really only had one psuedo winter expedition in the spring out west (got the last snowstorm of the year...). My boots were wet the hole trip, froze every morning, and never dried out. It sucked, and I was damn glad that I brought 5-6 pairs of wool socks, if I had been smarter at keeping my boots dry to start with I wouldn't have needed so many, but they helped my friend and I keep "dryer" feet.
Last words of advice. Wait till at least later tonight to give it a shot, right now I can't see the stacks on the building next to me and I'm not too far north of Fahnestock.
Jan LiteShoe
12-13-2007, 11:04
Hydrate well during the day, tapering off near sleep time to avoid exiting the toasty sleeping bag.
If you carry water bottles, either dump them out the night before a hard freeze (to avoid carrying 20-oz ice lumps, ha-ha), or store them upside down (if a light freeze).
I like to keep a dry base layer and dry socks in a ziplock, and change into those pretty soon after setting up camp, before the hiking heat seeps from my bones.
Empty bladder before retiring. This helps me alot. (Girls and pee bottles aren't exactly a mariage made in heaven.)
A bit of vigorous exercise (a few jumping jacks will do, and will perform the double duty of amusing your friends) to generate some muscle heat before entering the sleeping bag.
My sleeping bag is my primary winter survial gear, and I make sure it's a good one (800 fill in my case). I love down! It's like turning on the toaster, within the first minute. Down + Jan = marriage made in heaven.
Hat on/hat off while hiking. Vent at head, neck and wrists while climbing, bundle up while descending, as a general guideline. Avoid sweat buildup as much as practical
There are a number of winter-lovers on this forum, you'll get some good tips. Winter is such a beautiful time to hike - NO BUGS! - and if there is snow on the ground, you'll have the extra pleasure of seeing what walks in the night.
Master the snot rocket, and ...
finally, avoid metal privy seats. ;-)
take-a-knee
12-13-2007, 11:07
If you are asking the question, it probably is unrealistic to expect to stay warm in a hammock in NY in the winter. You'll need some serious bottom insulation to stay warm. Check our Hammockforums.net for more info.
I'd agree with the serious insulation for the hammock comment. I would definitely get the Hennessey overcover. I would definitely bring more bottom insulation that the Hennessey supershelter bottom cover and Hennessey foam pad. I've used my HH in NY in the winter quite successfully -- to 5 degrees-- with the full supershelter and additional foam insulation below -- and a 15 degree bag. oh, and some warm clothing! I was recently at Mount Greylock with two of my kids -- about 32 degrees at night. They slept on a tent platform, and I was in my HH. we swapped mid - night. sleeping on a pad on a hard surface? not for me! I'd rather figure out the insulation thing...
Lone Wolf
12-13-2007, 11:32
Precautions for a winter hike....?
Just got some new gear and would like to use it for a few days hike after the holidays. I live NYC and have done sections from Algo-Fahnestock State park either mid to late summer, never in winter as of yet, and I would like to continue to add sections north.
Is using a hammock (i have a hen ultra expl) unrealistic? What can I expect a nights sleep will be w/o a tent, and wat can i do for more warmth?
Also clothing, ill prob sweat in almost anything, rather not buy a new winter hiking wardrobe...any suggestions?
thxs
mike
bring a tent. makes better sense.hammocks aren't practical
Good insulating pad.
I sometimes carry a thermarest AND a closed cell pad when backpacking in the winter. And that's in the SE.
slamajama
12-13-2007, 11:39
I just did a bit of winter hiking the biggest thing is layers Layers Layers. you will just keep adjusting until you find what works. Plan on your pack being heavier than normal. I hung with my hammock but mine is a CLark and has the insulationg pockets under it. Not sure when you are planning but several of us are planning for a winter hike in Mid January possibly in NY if youy want to jump on that thread.
Sas, thxs for invite im interested, can u send me link for thread plz...
wow, thxs to all...
the pee bottle is out for me, ill rough it and @ 45yrs my bladder is still good enuf to last nite...lol
Dry feet seems to be an underlining theme so far, ill need to address that...
forgot about sleeping with water, thxs for the reminder...
and as for my hammock im thinking a space blanket and a lighter than wat i have sleep mat, my bag is rated for 0 deg so im hoping it suffices
thxs again
slamajama
12-13-2007, 11:42
bring a tent. makes better sense.hammocks aren't practical
oh man, didnt want to hear that, im really, as an ideal, against bringing a shelter/tent, for me, wats the sence of going outdoors to be indoors, so to speak..
but i value ur opinion, ill have to concider it...thxs
While you are out there you should practice some basic winter skills even if you don't have to. Here are some suggestions:
1. Let a water bottle freeze and try to thaw it out.
2. Make a small fire if it is permited to do so.
3. Melt some snow to make some tea. (yellow birch maybe)
4. Dry out a pair of socks.
5. Dry out a pair of boots.
6. Dry out any other piece of clothing that gets wet.
7. Make a simple snow shelter if there is any snow.
My suggestion on clothing is not to have any spares other than socks but to have multiple layers that you can wear all at once for the most extreme conditions you might encounter. Some of these layers will effectively be spares, but if you do things in this way you know everything is interoperable. What I usually do is to wear your wool layers continually so they don't get wet and use the other layers to regulate temperature. They are usually more packable, and your wool acts as a better thermal flywheel to conserve your heat. Don't have too much wool, but a balance between wool and other layers, which should include at least one layer of 100wt or 200wt fleece that fits OVER the wool, and at least one very light wind layer, plus a good rain layer.
Can't help you on the hammocking, but be prepared to sleep on the ground also.
wrongway_08
12-13-2007, 11:48
Or you can pee in a gatorade bottle brought along for that purpose ... no need to step out the confines of the tent or hammock.
YEA, much nicer then freezing to go pee.
doggiebag
12-13-2007, 11:49
Sas, thxs for invite im interested, can u send me link for thread plz...
wow, thxs to all...
the pee bottle is out for me, ill rough it and @ 45yrs my bladder is still good enuf to last nite...lol
Dry feet seems to be an underlining theme so far, ill need to address that...
forgot about sleeping with water, thxs for the reminder...
and as for my hammock im thinking a space blanket and a lighter than wat i have sleep mat, my bag is rated for 0 deg so im hoping it suffices
thxs again
Here's the thread for the trip Sasquatch mentioned:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30615
take-a-knee
12-13-2007, 11:52
I sometimes carry a thermarest AND a closed cell pad when backpacking in the winter. And that's in the SE.
A full length ridgerest and a 3/4 Thermarest Prolite 3 weighs 27 oz. That is a bit of weight but you will be well insulated (and padded) from the cold, hard ground.
NorthCountryWoods
12-13-2007, 11:55
that's lazy and disgusting
Thought that too until a winter night the Talkeetnas. Now I have a designated Nalagene with skull and crossbones on it.
Just got back from a few days on the LT and while in summer I may rough it on a chilly night, I'm way OVER prepared in winter.
Fill water bottles with hot water and put it in the foot of your bag. 2 birds, 1 stone. Stones from a campfire work too.
By don't have too much wool I mean the following is usually sufficient:
3 pr wool socks (plus one pair of polypro liners)
1 pr long wool underwear. (200wt fleece pants + wool sweater over)
1 heavy wool sweater. (100wt fleece over)
1 pr of wool gloves. (the other 100wt fleece mitts with shell)
1 wool touk. (the other 100wt fleece balaclava or a down hood)
light nylon wind pants and wind jacket that fit over everything, but can sometimes be worn under stuff.
If you want to use a down vest or jacket that is OK, but I find that once I have all of the above I would sooner upgrade the wool sweater to something weighing in at 3 pounds or so rather than a down jacket over a 1 pound sweater. If extreme cold like below 0F then maybe a down layer also.
For winter with snow cover I suggest a 72"x28"x3/8" blue foam pad is warmer and lighter and less destructable. If there is no snow cover then perhaps self-inflatable also for comfort on the hard ground. Personally I would take a second blue foam pad instead. 48"x20"x3/8".
If hiking in snow country where snow is on the low hanging overhead tree branches, keep your neck covered with either a hood, neckwarmer, balaclava or scarf. Otherewise snow will fall down onto your bare neck inside your collar and that's a pain in the neck! Cold too.
saimyoji
12-13-2007, 12:09
my winter pads are a blue ccf from walmart and a POE x-lite thermo. Keeps me toasty. So far.
While you are out there you should practice some basic winter skills even if you don't have to. Here are some suggestions:
1. Let a water bottle freeze and try to thaw it out.
2. Make a small fire if it is permited to do so.
3. Melt some snow to make some tea. (yellow birch maybe)
4. Dry out a pair of socks.
5. Dry out a pair of boots.
6. Dry out any other piece of clothing that gets wet.
7. Make a simple snow shelter if there is any snow.
If you plan on doing stuff like this then you tend to be prepared.
If you actually do them every time you go then you will know.
Also bring a thermometer, so you know if you were prepared, or just lucky.
LIhikers
12-13-2007, 12:15
Either I didn't see it, or maybe nobody mentioned the idea to have warm dry clothes to change into after you're done hiking. I sweat even during winter hikes and my clothes wind up damp at the end of the day. Have some dry, warm clothes to change into.
Dress and prepare for the climate extreme, not for the weather report.
But always check the weather report anyways.
Either I didn't see it, or maybe nobody mentioned the idea to have warm dry clothes to change into after you're done hiking. I sweat even during winter hikes and my clothes wind up damp at the end of the day. Have some dry, warm clothes to change into.I keep my damp wool stuff on to dry it out, either with body heat or with a small fire. I tend to keep my long wool underwear in reserve unless it is extremely cold, but if my wool sweater does get too damp and cold I will pull my wool underwear on underneath. I will take off damp fleece off though, to shake the snow and ice off, or because I am too warm. If it is the good stuff it will absorb very little. If it is frozen with ice when I wake up I just beat the snot out of it on a rock. It is best to keep wool on, I think. If it is still damp when you want to go to bed and you have a down sleeping bag then take it off and beat the snot out of it in the morning before putting it back on.
To dry wool with a small fire I do so while wearing it usually. Socks I wear as mitts to dry them out. A wool hat I will hold over both hands. Wool sweater you need a slightly bigger fire but I still keep it on with as little underneath as I can until its dry. Turn it inside out and back to front to dry it on all 4 sides. The best way to dry long underwear is to take everything else off, except socks and boots. If it is too cold then add your hats and mitts. If it is still too cold then put your sweater on and just dry the legs, then take the sweater off and put your fleece pants on just dry the chest and arms. Wind layers are important, but try and take them off now and then to dry stuff out.
Shelter from damp wind and rain and snow is very important, when sleeping or making tea or cooking a meal or drying stuff out. Look for good places to shelter as you hike and stop and use the good ones when you need to. You never know when you may need to backtrack to one, so keep an eye out. Sometimes you need to setup your ponchotarp as a wind deflector as well as a rain and snow shelter. Sometimes you need to use your blue foam pad as a heat reflector when cooking or dry, so you may need something else to sit on. If you wind you are doing this alot it might be worth the weight to cover one side of it with light aluminum tape, which also makes a great signal.
With a Kelly Kettle you can make tea while drying stuff at the same time. I don't carry the base that comes with it. I use rocks instead or 3 nails to jimmy up the bottom to let air in. I use nails to pitch my poncho/tarp instead of pegs because they are more versatile. If I am hiking in deep snow I will carry an aluminum oven tray and use it face up for melting water and use it face down if I need to cook on it because I can't kick enough snow away.
When making tea I add some extra thick sticks after the fires going but before the waters boiling so I will have a nice drying fire when I pull the kettle away and pour the tea. The kettle can't be on without water in it, so I am not able to do much drying while the water is heating as the fuel is usually still giving off steam even as the water comes to a full boil. So I make my tea and build the fire up only slightly more and once I have some nice coals without too much steam I start drying my stuff as I dring my tea. It is usually easier to start peeling off layers once I have some warm tea in me, with lots of milk and honey.
dessertrat
12-13-2007, 14:10
that's lazy and disgusting
It's only disgusting if you use the bottle for water the next day. Even that isn't all that disgusting if you wash it out first.:banana
slamajama
12-13-2007, 15:28
Jak, dood, how can i thank you for all the time and great information that you have given, im leaving for NJ tonite and now have some reading as i travel..sweet
thxs for the link...i look forward to jan hike
ty all, whiteblaze community :clap
sasquatch2014
12-13-2007, 21:19
bring a tent. makes better sense.hammocks aren't practical
Only if you don't understand simple concepts and dont know how to righ them properly. No given some peoples hammocks are really too light but there are many like mine that is a four season deal when setup correctly.
Lone Wolf
12-13-2007, 21:22
i'm a dumfuk and don't know how to righ
sasquatch2014
12-13-2007, 21:34
i'm a dumfuk and don't know how to righ
Possibly that may be the case. I just don't type well. however the point still stands that a hammock can be used very well even at cold temps if done correctly.
River Runner
12-13-2007, 23:13
and as for my hammock im thinking a space blanket and a lighter than wat i have sleep mat, my bag is rated for 0 deg so im hoping it suffices
thxs again
The space blanket won't do much for insulation and can cause condensation, although it can help as a windbreak. I've found either an underquilt or a wide closed cell foam pad (such as the 1/4 inch thin-light from gossamer gear), or both if it is very cold, work better. The Jacks R Better underquilts are awesomely warm. You will need warmer underinsulation than if you were sleeping on the ground. Don't count on your bag rating to keep you warmer overall if you skimp on underinsulation. Pretty much the opposite is true - with enough underinsulation you might be able to get by with a quilt or bag with a warmer rating. It does not work well conversely.
sasquatch2014
12-14-2007, 11:39
If you have never spent a night in space blanket before try it then you will really only look at them as a last ditch effort. I had to use one one time and it was like sleeping in a potato chip bag the crinkling sound with every move was annoying to say the least and as was said before they basicly act as a vapor barrier so you will be damp if not outright wet.
Possibly that may be the case. I just don't type well. however the point still stands that a hammock can be used very well even at cold temps if done correctly.L.Wolf may be a man of few, though frequent, words; but it really doesn't need to be stated that once the air is colder than the ground a hammock may not be the best place to be. Even if you suspend an underquilt and gain some weight advantage that way over closed cell foam on the ground, there is still much more convection to deal with. Don't get me wrong, it is a noble pursuit for sure, but I think the onus is on you and your lofty hammocker friends, and not us humble ground dwellers, to explain how this might all work best in winter.
I've always thought carrying a space blanket was rather like planning on being ill-prepared just in case you are caught unprepared. It is good to be prepared to be unprepared, and a space blanket doesn't take up much space, but it doesn't provide much in terms of marginal improvement unless you find yourself wearing nothing but your speedos in the wilderness, with a space blanket tucked neatly into the small pocket.
NorthCountryWoods
12-14-2007, 11:55
JAK, were you on the Mother Earth News Forum?
JAK, were you on the Mother Earth News Forum?Yes I was. Haven't been there in a while. Not much traffic, and got a little stale explaing over and over how many tons of green wood you would have to load into an outdoor wood boiler when its 30 below. :D
NorthCountryWoods
12-14-2007, 12:10
Yup, thought that was you. Haven't been there since that new format killed it.
Small world.
sasquatch2014
12-14-2007, 12:13
All insulation works on the same principal, which is to trap air and create a microclimate around your body from the heat that, our body generates. While it is true that blocking air currents by lying on the ground will help stop the problems from under air currents that a hammocker will face this can also be mitigated by a good layer of under hammock insulation. In the type of hammock that I use for instance this can be done simply by adding a number of inflated zip lock bags into the pockets under the hammock.
My issue if you look at quote “bring a tent. makes better sense.hammocks aren't practical” by L Wolf is the practicality of the use. Again my statement stands that if you understand the principals then this can be done in cold weather. Understanding this is not just for tree hangers but in cold weather tent placement should be looked at, what is the prevailing wind, is there a way to block the wind, am I in a low area where colder air will pool. Or for those in a shelter same issue which side will give me more wind protection. These all seem to be common sense things but as its been said before sometimes common sense is the least common thing.
No don’t get me wrong is there a time and place where I don’t think a hammock would be practical in cold climates? Absolutely. I would not try to hammock in the artic or above treeline. Not because its too cold really but more because there is nothing to hang it from. See that is just common sense.
You are right that if someone wants to learn more about how to hammock in colder temps or other issues regarding that type of camping they should go to a site dedicated to that pursuite such as Hammock Forums.
Small world indeed. It would be nice to get out and meet some folks I have conversed with over the past few years. The Appalachian Trail would be as good a place as any, and better than most. Hope to see you some day.
All insulation works on the same principal, which is to trap air and create a microclimate around your body from the heat that, our body generates. While it is true that blocking air currents by lying on the ground will help stop the problems from under air currents that a hammocker will face this can also be mitigated by a good layer of under hammock insulation. In the type of hammock that I use for instance this can be done simply by adding a number of inflated zip lock bags into the pockets under the hammock.
My issue if you look at quote “bring a tent. makes better sense.hammocks aren't practical” by L Wolf is the practicality of the use. Again my statement stands that if you understand the principals then this can be done in cold weather. Understanding this is not just for tree hangers but in cold weather tent placement should be looked at, what is the prevailing wind, is there a way to block the wind, am I in a low area where colder air will pool. Or for those in a shelter same issue which side will give me more wind protection. These all seem to be common sense things but as its been said before sometimes common sense is the least common thing.
No don’t get me wrong is there a time and place where I don’t think a hammock would be practical in cold climates? Absolutely. I would not try to hammock in the artic or above treeline. Not because its too cold really but more because there is nothing to hang it from. See that is just common sense.
You are right that if someone wants to learn more about how to hammock in colder temps or other issues regarding that type of camping they should go to a site dedicated to that pursuite such as Hammock Forums.I think from all you have said so far L.Wolf's statement still stands.
It was in the context of winter. When I think winter, I think I better be prepared for 30 below, plus wind on top of that. I do intend to try a hammock someday, even in winter. When I do I will be prepared to through it on the ground and use it as a bivy.
sasquatch2014
12-14-2007, 12:20
Well I guess we shall agree to disagree on the correctness of L Wolf's statement.
on an unrealted note is the Noreaster that we just had heading your way today? We got over 13 inches at my house in just about 7 hrs.
We got some light fluffy stuff last night. But only a few inches and no wind.
http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/forecast/trends_graph_e.html?ysj&unit=i
Something seems headed our way though.
http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/city/pages/nb-23_metric_e.html
How come you guys blame all the weather on us when you seem to get it first? :D
sasquatch2014
12-14-2007, 12:28
When I lived in southern wyoming we joked that we didn't get a lot of snow we just used it over and over again. Lots of wind drifts out that way.
NorthCountryWoods
12-14-2007, 13:18
Small world indeed. It would be nice to get out and meet some folks I have conversed with over the past few years. The Appalachian Trail would be as good a place as any, and better than most. Hope to see you some day.
That would be cool. We try to get to Maine every year, but haven't been in the last couple. Been so spoiled by how quiet the northern LT is, we've been avoiding the busier AT.
...on an unrealted note is the Noreaster that we just had heading your way today? We got over 13 inches at my house in just about 7 hrs.
Nother one coming this weekend.:banana
Christopher Robin
12-14-2007, 14:09
By don't have too much wool I mean the following is usually sufficient:
3 pr wool socks (plus one pair of polypro liners)
1 pr long wool underwear. (200wt fleece pants + wool sweater over)
1 heavy wool sweater. (100wt fleece over)
1 pr of wool gloves. (the other 100wt fleece mitts with shell)
1 wool touk. (the other 100wt fleece balaclava or a down hood)
light nylon wind pants and wind jacket that fit over everything, but can sometimes be worn under stuff.
If you want to use a down vest or jacket that is OK, but I find that once I have all of the above I would sooner upgrade the wool sweater to something weighing in at 3 pounds or so rather than a down jacket over a 1 pound sweater. If extreme cold like below 0F then maybe a down layer also.
Tent is a good idea to & to the list, but make sure it has a fly over it because it acts as a barrier to keep out condersation and Warmth in. Also flatten the snow down you place the ground cloth then put your tent on top, & in the Winter it is a good idea to have a little extra cloth out side the tent door to keep the snow out. At nige always change your cothes you wore that day with your hiking boots under or in the bottom of your slepping bag. I also keep a bar of chocoale under my pillow.:sun One more thing wind pans& top are very important in cold weather w/wool mittens & a cover of them. OOh boots should be water proof, I use Snows bee wax to do this job.