View Full Version : Estate Planning for Hikers
Not sure where this goes but I thought it might be helpful especially for folks planning a Long Distance hike. I am an estate planning attorney by trade and would like to offer the Whiteblaze community some general estate planning tips and observations. Now this is a very general overview. Each state has different rules and regulations. I can’t give legal advice to people who aren’t in NC (where I am licensed) *Don Pardo voice* “Void where prohibited, some restrictions apply, this article does not constitute the creation of an attorney client relationship and is for purely informational purposes only, batteries not included”. The problem with estate planning is it conjures up a lot of different and often inaccurate connotations and perceptions. Many people tell me in so many words that estate planning means “Death Planning for Really Rich Old People”
There are several problems with this “definition” the first is old. Notice how old changes? When I was in high school 30 looked pretty old to me, now 30 looks pretty good! Second issue is “rich” people use wealth or a perceived lack of it as a way of filtering themselves out of estate planning. Lastly is “death planning”. While stating your intentions after your death is a part of estate planning, there are many facets of estate planning that have nothing to do with death at all. To me estate planning has three main components: 1) I want to control my stuff while I am alive and well, 2) I want to protect myself and provide for my loved ones if I become disabled, 3) When I die, I want give what I want, to whom I want, the way I want.
The reality is, everyone reading this post has an estate plan. They either have a plan they have created for themselves or they have the one provided for them by their state legislature. We either live by design or default. Everyone has a need for what I call “The Basic Four”. These are the basic documents that everyone needs regardless of their situation.
The first is “The Will” Basically who gets your stuff and who gets your kids. Without one the state decides who gets what. For example, in North Carolina, if a husband and wife have two kids, and the husband dies without a will (in all my examples the husband dies first), the wife gets 1/3 of his estate, the balance goes to the kids. If the kids are under 18, the assets go to the court and the court manages it for them until they are 18, surviving wife has get permission from the court to use that money for kids benefit. Again every state will be different but just an example.
The second is a “Power of Attorney”. This document allows you to give another person the right to conduct business and legal actions on your behalf (ie pay your bills, file your taxes, handle your banking). You can set this up to last for a specific period of time (limited) or to go on indefinitely (durable). A limited Power of Attorney would be very useful to a thru hiker to allow someone the ability to handle “real world stuff” while on the trail. Without one, if a need arises, the court would have to declare you incompetent and appoint someone to handle your affairs. Not fun.
The third is a “Health Care Power of Attorney” some states will refer to these as a Health Care or Advance Care Directive. This document basically appoints a “chain of command” of who gets to make medical decisions on your behalf if you can’t. You could pick a hiking buddy if you are pairing up with someone. Again without it, the court decides. The most extreme recent example of what can happen without this document is the Terry Schiavo situation. A Health Care Power of Attorney would have stopped that in a hurry.
Lastly is a “Living Will”. It outlines under what conditions you can be taken off of life support. Sometimes this document is combined with the Health Care Power of Attorney.
Getting these documents are fairly inexpensive. For those who don’t think they can afford to go to an attorney there are lots of DYI options available. Often not as good (of course I am biased) but it is better than nothing. Health Care Power of Attorney and Living will can sometimes be stored with your state’s secretary of State (NC offers this). A company called Docubank (www.docubank.com (http://www.docubank.com/)) will record a copy of the documents and give you a card. In an emergency, a phone number on the card is called and they will fax the documents to the hospital, doctor of whatever.
Not wanting to start a flame war, because I know this can be controversial but most major medical polices stop covering college students once they graduate, hit 25, or are no longer considered full time. If you are still on your folks policy, check to see if you are still covered and plan accordingly.
In my opinion (again I know I am biased) this should be an integral part of anyone’s life. It is preventative planning. It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. It can be of great benefit and doesn’t add weight to your pack! I know I have thrown a lot out here but at the same this is a very general post and I have used some pretty broad brush strokes. If you have additional questions, I will be happy to answer as best as I can. This is one area where I can offer some expertise to this community that has given me so much already. I hope it is helpful.
Miss Janet
12-14-2007, 11:33
These are things on a lot of peoples TO DO lists... they are things the healthy, young and invincible don't like to consider and aren't a priority. But in the last several years we have dealt with major and often unexpected family illnesses and deaths where none of this had been done.
... now where is my TO DO list???
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-14-2007, 12:01
Dinos are older creatures and have tackled this... not fun, but necessary. Having had several friends leave this earth way-too-soon and without a Will.... make a Will for your family's sake - especially if you have minor children and are not married to their other parent.... minor heirs complicate things considerably.
dessertrat
12-14-2007, 12:15
I am also an attorney, and do some Estate work. (Maryland). Please make a will if you have any assets at all, or if you have any personal property that you think others will specifically want because of sentimental value. In fact, you should have a Will even if you have no assets-- you never know if you might win the lottery or inherit money yourself, only to be run over by a bus the next day. And then the money might go to someone you don't like.
And then the money might go to someone you don't like.Like an attorney? :eek: Just kidding. :D
The Weasel
12-14-2007, 14:55
Not sure where this goes but I thought it might be helpful especially for folks planning a Long Distance hike. I am an estate planning attorney by trade and would like to offer the Whiteblaze community some general estate planning tips and observations. ***.
Great post, Ash. Take a minute and go to the "Articles" section for my article (Backpacking Law 101). Would you like to create a section (attributed) for it and merge it in, combining with some of the things I have in there? If so, PM me or email me.
TW
And please add this:
No matter what:
FOR THE LOVE OF WHATEVER IF YOU HAVE KIDS OR A WIFE/HUSBAND, PLEASE HAVE LIFE INSURANCE!!!!
If you do higher risk activities it won't be cheap. You say you can't afford life insurance? You can't afford to risk your family being destitute because of your hobbies!
Here in Washington I can think of at least a dozen cases in recent years of men in their prime earning years killed while hiking and mountainering who had no insurance. These men were not poor either. They all had decent jobs. And stay at home wives with small children.
Nothing says I love you like losing your home after losing your partner. This is not something people want to think about, but it is very important.
My husband carries plenty on himself, and as well carries plenty on my head that if something were to happen to me my son would be fine finacially. It wasn't romantic when we talked about it, and it will never be. But he wanted to make sure that if anything happened to him that we would have a home, a car and food - and be able to pay bills for a couple years as well.
Amen Sarbar! Regarding life insurance, go with simple TERM life insurance (bascially get 10 x your annual salary) (when you die, it bascially replaces your income for your family - they take the proceeds and invest it in something getting a 10% return and voila it generates the income that you had coming in) It is less expensive that WHOLE LIFE and all the other tricky life insurance products. Check out www.daveramsey.com (http://www.daveramsey.com) for his opinion this and other finacial ideas. The purpose of life insurance is to give your family an immediate estate (i.e. $500,000 or so) in lieu of not having that much saved or on hand. Life insurance is a MUST for anyone with a family.
I am currently in a battle with my dad about the creation of a Health Care Power of Attorney. He contends that no one in my group should be given the responsibility of making my medical decisions, while I contend that I need someone who can make quick decisions with and for me without having to try and get in touch with him, which could be tough at times.
Kirby
buckowens
12-14-2007, 19:14
Nice post Ashman. Very similar to what we receive in the military before heading overseas. It is nice of you to offer it to the White blaze community, some of which are younger pups who may need it, but not know it. I loved the disclaimer as well, but am saddened to see we have gotten to that point as a country. My friends and fellow soldiers in Sweden and Finland make fun of us for our litigious society...
I would also add to be very cautious before ever giving anyone a non-Health care Power of Attorney. Or any POA for that matter. Make your choices wisely and make sure you know the habits and demeanor of the person you choose. Even this is no guarantee, but it is better than picking a newly found "drinking buddy"!!:D
kirby,
I gotta go with your dad on this one. If you are knocked out, the Emergency room doctors can do what ever it takes to keep you alive without any consent. If you have ID and a "call in case of emergency" number on you, your folks will get there in plenty of time. A health insurance card would help.
smokymtnsteve
12-14-2007, 19:28
I have a DO NOT RESUSCITATE
Medic-alert necklace;)
Rain Man
12-14-2007, 19:53
... I loved the disclaimer as well, but am saddened to see we have gotten to that point as a country. My friends and fellow soldiers in Sweden and Finland make fun of us for our litigious society...
"Litigious society" is a overblown fiction created by big business and big medicine and big insurance companies to justify their agendas. Perhaps we should be more socialized, like Sweden and Finland? I doubt you're proposing that, though it is a logical conclusion, since you chose to compare them favorably to America.
Rain:sunMan
.
"Litigious society" is a overblown fiction created by big business and big medicine and big insurance companies to justify their agendas.
Rain:sunMan
.
Disagree.
Judge and the dry cleaner.
Stupid labels. I liked the iron on t-shirt transfer- Do not wear shirt...
For you Mainers: http://emmc.org/NR/rdonlyres/eko2fsj2c67dwremvlmimy6gqtwoikrnavsh3mbp7kbkk3gavm z5vlv3zrxtrpo7xgdfxmrla5vf2utqyxwacybzkla/MAD.pdf
This was origionally put up by the hospital in 2005. The legal types can opine on the legality of the form. I think free forms should be way of life. Including fill in the blank wills and contracts. Hint. Hint.
dessertrat
12-14-2007, 21:56
And please add this:
No matter what:
FOR THE LOVE OF WHATEVER IF YOU HAVE KIDS OR A WIFE/HUSBAND, PLEASE HAVE LIFE INSURANCE!!!!
If you do higher risk activities it won't be cheap. You say you can't afford life insurance? You can't afford to risk your family being destitute because of your hobbies!
Here in Washington I can think of at least a dozen cases in recent years of men in their prime earning years killed while hiking and mountainering who had no insurance. These men were not poor either. They all had decent jobs. And stay at home wives with small children.
Nothing says I love you like losing your home after losing your partner. This is not something people want to think about, but it is very important.
My husband carries plenty on himself, and as well carries plenty on my head that if something were to happen to me my son would be fine finacially. It wasn't romantic when we talked about it, and it will never be. But he wanted to make sure that if anything happened to him that we would have a home, a car and food - and be able to pay bills for a couple years as well.
Ditto on this too. My father died when I was six years old, and had no life insurance. Instead of maintaining our lifestyle, my mother waited tables and got social security survivors benefits for us kids. Have enough life insurance for the mortgage plus three years of living expenses without the mortgage, at least.
Good advice, but what does it have to do with thru-hiking? I know that I'm a lot safer on the trail then I am at home.
dessertrat
12-14-2007, 22:20
Disagree.
Judge and the dry cleaner.
Stupid labels. I liked the iron on t-shirt transfer- Do not wear shirt...
For you Mainers: http://emmc.org/NR/rdonlyres/eko2fsj2c67dwremvlmimy6gqtwoikrnavsh3mbp7kbkk3gavm z5vlv3zrxtrpo7xgdfxmrla5vf2utqyxwacybzkla/MAD.pdf
This was origionally put up by the hospital in 2005. The legal types can opine on the legality of the form. I think free forms should be way of life. Including fill in the blank wills and contracts. Hint. Hint.
You will find almost no lawyers in the United States who agree with you, whether for the plaintiffs or defendants. The dry cleaner judge is the exception that proves the rule.
May I recommend a video to everyone:
SICKO
By Michael Moore. Not my favorite person in the world, but this one is a must see.
Good advice, but what does it have to do with thru-hiking? I know that I'm a lot safer on the trail then I am at home.
Everything. You never know when it will be your time. You could be hiking and have a tree fall on you. You could be swept away in a river crossing. Deaths happen in the wilds. This year one of my past hiking partners lost his wife while they were backpacking.
oldfivetango
12-15-2007, 05:06
Here is a question I have.In North Carolina,if you die without a will and
have dependent children under the age of 18 I believe you said 1/3 of
your assets go to the State.
Does the state take title to the assets?ie,if pop dies and most of what
he had was land and real estate etc does the state take possession of it?
Do they sell it to provide cash for the children?
And most importantly.........what kind of fees does the State charge the
bereaved widow and heirs?
And in the case of an estate that is heavy with negotiable securities and cash,does the State appropriate the income from those securities and cash
outright or does it collect a fee instead?
Somehow I dont think the State is doing this out of the goodness of its
heart for the poor little children.
Inquiring minds want to know..............
And,yes,I have a complete plan but it is impossible to "beat the man",
although I am trying.
Oldfivetango
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-15-2007, 06:58
One of my closest friends was divorced when her ex died at age 32 - they had 4 minor children. Because he died on-the-job, there was a workman's compensation settlement - there is a court appointed guardian who decides what - if any - of this money the mother may use to raise these children. Thus far, the <bleep> guardian has charged more in fees than he has allowed the mother to use. Since the ex had no Will, his assets were sold and are / were being held in trust for the children to receive at age 18. I knew the deceased pretty well and he would not be happy with this situation -- and it could have easily been prevented with a Will and bit of planning. Don't leave your children in similar circumstances - spell out who you want to be responsible for handling insurance proceeds on their behalf and how your assets should be distributed.
If you are older and have grown children -- spelling things out can prevent a war between the children. I've watched many of my deceased friends kids fight tooth and nail for the assets and keepsakes. We had our children put what they wanted in writing and the letters are with our Wills. We have nine kids between us and we don't want a war when we are gone. Since we each have children from previous marriages, we also do not want anyone trying to do anything like trying to force a step-parent to surrender treasured household items or assets before the step-parent passes on. Our Wills address that aspect as well.
Here is a question I have.In North Carolina,if you die without a will and
have dependent children under the age of 18 I believe you said 1/3 of
your assets go to the State.
Does the state take title to the assets?ie,if pop dies and most of what
he had was land and real estate etc does the state take possession of it?
Do they sell it to provide cash for the children?
And most importantly.........what kind of fees does the State charge the
bereaved widow and heirs?
And in the case of an estate that is heavy with negotiable securities and cash,does the State appropriate the income from those securities and cash
outright or does it collect a fee instead?
Somehow I dont think the State is doing this out of the goodness of its
heart for the poor little children.
Inquiring minds want to know..............
And,yes,I have a complete plan but it is impossible to "beat the man",
although I am trying.
Oldfivetango
I know it sounds crazy but that is what happens. Actually under that scenario wife gets 1/3 the other 2/3 held for kiddos In NC under that situation all property owned by the husband gets split like I said. The state infact does take legal possesion of the property and "manages" the property. (usually they drop the liquid cash into a savings account securites can and usually are liquidated). They charge a fee for doing so which is a certian percentange up to whatever income is earned. (which is usally ALL income cuz savings accounts don't earn too much) The widow in fact has to petetion for access to these funds. I had a widow client whose husband was killed by a drunk driver of a painting truck. Ladder flew off the truck, went through the windshield and decapitated him with his son in the passenger seat while on vacation. At the condo were two half completed life insurance apps (good point that needs to be added). He had a construction company that the widow now had to run with the oversight of the state. NOT GOOD AND COMPLETELY AVOIDABLE! Long story short, the more complete your plan the better you beat the man!
I am currently in a battle with my dad about the creation of a Health Care Power of Attorney. He contends that no one in my group should be given the responsibility of making my medical decisions, while I contend that I need someone who can make quick decisions with and for me without having to try and get in touch with him, which could be tough at times.
Kirby
Kirby at the end of the day, your dad wins that argument, as a minor you are "legally incompetent" meaning you aren't allowed to make legal decisions absent your parent's consent. In NC I prepare a HCPOA-like document for parents to fill out for their minor children. If you want more info PM me. From what I have read here, you are remarkedly mature for 16 years. The more info you have and the better you debate with facts rather than emotions will help a lot with your folks I'm sure. Kudos to you for even bringing it up. 75% of the American population have done NO estate planning other than the "default plan of the state"
Nice post Ashman. Very similar to what we receive in the military before heading overseas. It is nice of you to offer it to the White blaze community, some of which are younger pups who may need it, but not know it. I loved the disclaimer as well, but am saddened to see we have gotten to that point as a country. My friends and fellow soldiers in Sweden and Finland make fun of us for our litigious society...
I would also add to be very cautious before ever giving anyone a non-Health care Power of Attorney. Or any POA for that matter. Make your choices wisely and make sure you know the habits and demeanor of the person you choose. Even this is no guarantee, but it is better than picking a newly found "drinking buddy"!!:D
Godd call on the wisdom of who gets chosen. You need to make the choice or the state decides for you but you need to choose wisely. If you are concerned about the amount of power you are giving someone you need to make sure you limit the POA.
An excellent thread. Even if the state's plans for your money and your children are not markedly different than what you might specify in your will, and even if there's no dissension among the widow and heirs, it takes YEARS to get it sorted out without a Will.
Amen Sarbar! Regarding life insurance, go with simple TERM life insurance (bascially get 10 x your annual salary) (when you die, it bascially replaces your income for your family - they take the proceeds and invest it in something getting a 10% return and voila it generates the income that you had coming in) It is less expensive that WHOLE LIFE and all the other tricky life insurance products. ...
Good advice. Whole life and "universal life" are usually not the best, and almost never the cheapest, options. It's death insurance, designed to replace income if you croak. K.I.S.S. Life insurance should not be for saving money. Buy term and invest the difference if you want to build a nest egg.
Term insurance for younger, healthy people is cheap*. Anyone with dependents - man or woman, parent or spouse - who dies without life insurance is just downright irresponsible.
* Yes, when you get older, term insurance gets more and more expensive, but the kids are out of college, the mortgage is paid, you've put some $$$ aside, so you need less.
(I'm waiting to see if we have any insurance agents here)
NICKTHEGREEK
12-15-2007, 08:54
I am currently in a battle with my dad about the creation of a Health Care Power of Attorney. He contends that no one in my group should be given the responsibility of making my medical decisions, while I contend that I need someone who can make quick decisions with and for me without having to try and get in touch with him, which could be tough at times.
Kirby
Kirby, my son contracted a bad case of food poisoning at college and had to be taken to the hospital by ambulance in the middle of the night. Since he was 18, they would not release any information to us without him signing a release. For about 4 agonizing hrs he could not do so. If you think we enjoyed it, we didn't. Take care of the necessary paperwork and carry it with you at all times. If you have a cell, put your contacts under ICOE -In
Case of Emergency, it's becoming well recognized.
Disagree.
Judge and the dry cleaner. ...
Oh, that's right. Tons of lawsuits like this are filed every day! How'd the judge make out? :rolleyes:
LIhikers
12-15-2007, 09:18
Ya know, I've had all those documents done, but way too long ago.
I think it's time to update them. Thanks for the reminder!
I would rather have a good lawyer than a great doctor.
Something that's worthwhile (get your parents to do this, too) is to get a credit report. File it. Repeat annually, shredding the old ones. When the family is wrapping up the estate, it's a great road map to credit relationships.
My father did this and it sure helped!
I am currently in a battle with my dad about the creation of a Health Care Power of Attorney. He contends that no one in my group should be given the responsibility of making my medical decisions, while I contend that I need someone who can make quick decisions with and for me without having to try and get in touch with him, which could be tough at times.
Kirby
I got to go with your dad on that one too. You know hiking on the trail is not like being on the dark side of the moon. If your were in any hospital near the trail and you needed you parents to make a medical decision, they could drive there in less than a day. Meanwhile the doctors in the hospital would just do whatever you needed.
Panzer
Good advice. Whole life and "universal life" are usually not the best, and almost never the cheapest, options. It's death insurance, designed to replace income if you croak. K.I.S.S. Life insurance should not be for saving money. Buy term and invest the difference if you want to build a nest egg.
Whole life/Universal life insurance is more that just death insurance its also has an investment component to it where you can save and invest money in stock market, bonds, ect, take pre-approved loans at low interest rates, increase/decrease your coverage as your needs change, and many more useful features. There are also some tax advantages to the investment aspect of the policy. However, I agree that most people are better off with just simple term life insurance.
Panzer
Jack Tarlin
12-15-2007, 15:10
Good thread.
Kirby: Nick's post (#25 above) makes a lot of sense. Put something in writing, and put it where it can be easily found.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-15-2007, 15:16
Don't want to restart the med care for minors discussion again, but I think Kirby wants someone to be able to sign for him to have non-emergent situations checked - like suspected tick bite, spider bite, bad cold - that sort of thing. As you say, a hospital would give him necessary treatment in an emergency until his parents could be contacted.
Don't want to restart the med care for minors discussion again, but I think Kirby wants someone to be able to sign for him to have non-emergent situations checked - like suspected tick bite, spider bite, bad cold - that sort of thing. As you say, a hospital would give him necessary treatment in an emergency until his parents could be contacted.
That's exactly my worry. I am fully aware that under federal law hospitals must give life-saving treatment to minors, no parental consent needed. But I am worried about things like tick bites, unusual rashes, etc., where it is not life threatening, there for requiring parental consent, but is still worrysome enough to warrant going to the hospital about.
Kirby
Kirby, you should not experience any unusual rashes until you get to college.
but am saddened to see we have gotten to that point as a country. My friends and fellow soldiers in Sweden and Finland make fun of us for our litigious society... Hey, take it to the political forum or whatever it's called. This forum's for hiking. Thanks.
Jan LiteShoe
12-15-2007, 17:58
This is a good thread. People often avoid this task.
My parents courageouly addressed this problem, procurring all the necessary documents, assembling records, and then discussing their wishes with us kids. It help alot at the end, practically speaking, when the emotions are in another place.
Their example impressed me enough to do the same for myself. I think it cost all of $125 to put together a simple will, and the rest, and think through some significant questions.
Endings aren't easy, but they can be simpler. The last thing you want is for the state to be involved making your choices for you.
buckowens
12-15-2007, 18:04
Hey, take it to the political forum or whatever it's called. This forum's for hiking. Thanks.
Sorry Frosty, no offense intended. It was merely a comment on the crazy necessity to post a disclaimer on a hiking website. Sort of like the guy who sued Piper for running out of fuel because the airplane was not labeled "Don't run out of fuel or you will crash and die..." There I went and did it again, sorry, but they hiked in to the crash site! :D
Rain Man
12-15-2007, 21:43
... Sort of like the guy who sued Piper for running out of fuel because the airplane was not labeled "Don't run out of fuel or you will crash and die..." There I went and did it again, sorry, but they hiked in to the crash site! :D
Still pullin' 'em outta the ol backside, eh?
As you were asked once already, take these political lies to the political forums, please.
Rain:sunMan
.
buckowens
12-15-2007, 22:38
Still pullin' 'em outta the ol backside, eh?
As you were asked once already, take these political lies to the political forums, please.
Rain:sunMan
.
I apparently missed the earlier post, and will in the future refrain from making any humorous comments regarding Trial Litigation. It was foolish of me, and I hope will not lead to papers in the mail next week. :D
I do however think the information that Ashman posted was very good, and good of him to do. Ashman, you are a class act.
The chance of being injured on the trail is a real concern, and the better the planning, the less hassle for the hiker and family. Medic alert bracelets are a must if an allergy is known.
Like an attorney? :eek: Just kidding. :D
Not always just a joke. People in a town near me still chuckle about the attorney who routinely listed himself as the heir of last resort when he did wills. He ended up with a multi-million dollar piece of property.
Weary
I have a DO NOT RESUSCITATE
Medic-alert necklace;)
You are a special case. But that is not a wise directive for most young people.
For most couples with young families, wills can be quite simple. Usually each should leave everything they own to the other, with the only complication dealing with the chance that both could be killed in the same accident. Folks with serial spouses and kids face more complicated decisions.
Weary