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emerald
12-15-2007, 22:13
Earlier today, I pointed out to someone what I have long believed to be true: some individuals have a better than 20% chance at the outset of completing the A.T. in a continuous hike. I believe there are a number of reasons why one hiker's chances might be better than another's.

I also believe hiking with someone else has both good points and bad points, and, sometimes, a pair or small group is more likely to succeed as a group than what the odds would seem to suggest they might as individuals.

I won't say at this point what particulars I think might favor one individual or group over another. I'll let that to others to sort out.

bigboots
12-15-2007, 22:21
I'm sure there are tons of factors that can be attributed to success/failure on a thru for both, but I think that's why we're here on WB. To increase our chances at success or to help others in their goals. If someone has the time I'm sure they could use an algarithm (sp) to find their individual success rate.:-?

Bigboots

emerald
12-15-2007, 22:25
Maybe you miss my point. I think there are ways one can improve one's odds. How can one do so?

Almost There
12-15-2007, 22:26
People just say 20% as an average, obviously some people have better than a 20% chance and others have worse than a 20% chance. Preparation, expectations, determination, past experiences, and loose ends possibly left at home are just some factors that could increase a hikers chance or lessen it.

Jaybird
12-15-2007, 22:27
Earlier today, I pointed out to someone what I have long believed to be true: some individuals have a better than 20% chance at the outset of completing the A.T. in a continuous hike. I believe there are a number of reasons why one hiker's chances might be better than another's.............



SHARE your wealth of knowledge...O wise one!

thats what these FORUMS are for...

(but, the mere numbers are still gonna be 10-20% success rate...facts are facts!)

Almost There
12-15-2007, 22:31
Maybe you miss my point. I think there are ways one can improve one's odds. How can one do so?

Depends on the person and what might get one of the trail. For myself, it's my wife and what might be happening at home. If a crisis hits or she is having a rough time then it tends to wear on me while I am out hiking as I am left with all day to think about it and wish I was there to help her out with it. For others it could be something completely different. Although it does seem that many leave the trail due to a significant other.

Some have grand expectations of what the trail will do for them. To me it's one of the best places in the world to spend time, but the reality is it is just a trail, and if you expect it to do something magical for you...well, it's not gonna do that, what ever change occurs I think is due to what you find within yourself due to all that time left alone with yourself and your own thoughts.

I guess on lesser levels, gear, health, and past experience or lack of can also increase or decrease one's chances.

All in all, though there are lots of people who overcome all of these obstacles to complete the trail.

buckowens
12-15-2007, 22:48
Maybe you miss my point. I think there are ways one can improve one's odds. How can one do so?

I religiously followed two hikers last year on Trail Journals, and one dropped due to injury and the other due to family issues. I would say that arranging things on the home front should rank up there pretty high to a successful completion. If there is not that unwavering level of support from home, it would be difficult to continue. Injury is always a possibility.

I agree with Almost There that some have very grand expectations, and are sometimes disappointed. The build up is almost always better than the actual event, or so I have observed. The other factors mentioned will also have an impact to some degree or another.

MOWGLI
12-15-2007, 23:09
Maybe you miss my point. I think there are ways one can improve one's odds. How can one do so?

In a word, experience. With experience and knowledge comes confidence, sound decisions and reasonable expectations. Of course, someone who is inexperienced but with a boatload of determination can have a great shot.

rafe
12-15-2007, 23:21
A good attitude. A sense of humor and adventure. I'm not even talking about financial, health or family issues... just the psychological game.

rickb
12-15-2007, 23:35
I would note that an extraordinarily high percentage of Warren Doyle's students make it the whole way. And not just those who go on his guided expeditions, but also those who take his course and hit the Trail with full packs.

One could come up with all sorts of reasons for that: Self-selected characteristics of that population, WD's training, hiking style...

Who knows?

But the fact that his groups do make it a far high rate than most suggests to me that a lot of the reasons people give for stopping their hikes may not tell the entire story. But are perhaps more of a tipping point.

rickb
12-15-2007, 23:40
A good attitude. A sense of humor and adventure. I'm not even talking about financial, health or family issues... just the psychological game.

I read a business book called "Good to Great" where the author wrote of the "Stockdale Paradox". It was coined for POW Admiral Stockdale (later Ross Perot's running mate). The gist of it was the idea that those POWs who did best were the men who had an enduring faith that they would prevail in the end, but who also were very realistic about the magnitudue of the difficulties which lay ahead.

Seems like that way of thinking could help on the Trail, too.

From Google:


The Stockdale Paradox is named after Admiral Jim Stockdale who was the highest ranking US military officer imprisoned in Vietnam. He was held in the “Hanoi Hilton” and repeatedly tortured over 8 years. Collins describes going to lunch with Stockdale (can you imagine?) and trying to understand how he survived 8 years as a POW while so many died after just months in captivity.

Here’s how Stockdale put it. “I never lost faith in the end of the story. I never doubted not only that I would get out, but also that I would prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of my life, which, in retrospect, I would not trade.”

“Who didn’t make it out”?

“The optimists. They were the ones who said ‘we’re going to be out by Christmas’. And, Christmas would come and Christmas would go. Then they’d say, ‘We’re going to be out by Easter.’ And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. Then they died of a broken heart.”

So, on the one hand it was about unswerving faith that one will ultimately prevail while on the other hand it’s about banishing all false hopes? As usual, the guy who lived it says it best.

“You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end – which you can never afford to lose – with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”

Holding those two seemingly contradictory notions in his head simultaneously was the key to Stockdale surviving, even thriving, in his experience. And, I believe, it is a perfect summary of the mindset you’ve got to have in starting a company. You have to believe that your vision will come to pass. You’ve got to do everything you can to make it happen. But, you can never let your belief and faith cloud your confrontation with reality.

River Runner
12-16-2007, 00:24
I read a business book called "Good to Great" where the author wrote of the "Stockdale Paradox". It was coined for POW Admiral Stockdale (later Ross Perot's running mate). The gist of it was the idea that those POWs who did best were the men who had an enduring faith that they would prevail in the end, but who also were very realistic about the magnitudue of the difficulties which lay ahead.

Seems like that way of thinking could help on the Trail, too.

From Google:

Wow! Nice story you posted. That would seem to hit the nail on the head.

As to hiking with a partner, sometimes that can hurt ones odds. If the partner isn't motivated it's easy to end up going slow, taking lots of zero days in town, etc. And if the partner happens to sustain an injury, the person hiking with them may end up hanging around waiting for the partners injury to heal, or hiking less miles in a day than they would have otherwise, and due to reluctance to move on and dissolve the partnership, they may get discouraged by a lack of progress.

If both partners are motivated, hike at a similar pace, and have similar goals as far as mileage and zero days, then I think that could be encouraging.

Appalachian Tater
12-16-2007, 03:16
I would note that an extraordinarily high percentage of Warren Doyle's students make it the whole way. And not just those who go on his guided expeditions, but also those who take his course and hit the Trail with full packs.

One could come up with all sorts of reasons for that: Self-selected characteristics of that population, WD's training, hiking style...

Who knows?

But the fact that his groups do make it a far high rate than most suggests to me that a lot of the reasons people give for stopping their hikes may not tell the entire story. But are perhaps more of a tipping point.

Those people are not a representative, random sample and the numbers are way to small to draw any conclusions about hikers in general.

Also, a slack-packer with van support is much more likely to finish than a backpacker.

Bearpaw
12-16-2007, 03:30
What makes someone succeed on a thru-hike? Something special inside. You can't simply see it from talking to someone or looking in their eyes or what not. You'd have to spend some time with them in difficult situations before you could make that call.

But there really is a definite emotional and psychological component that outweighs physical conditioning or even experience. Those who start in poor shape or with no experience have more hurdles to overcome, but with the right mental attitude, this can be done, particularly on the AT, with the host of supports inherent to the typical north-bound thru-hike. Those with this streak of stubbornness in their nature are much more likely to succeed IMO.

Skits
12-16-2007, 05:29
Stubborness and the ability to be flexible.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-16-2007, 05:57
I would note that an extraordinarily high percentage of Warren Doyle's students make it the whole way.
....... an enduring faith that they would prevail in the end, but who also were very realistic about the magnitudue of the difficulties which lay ahead.

..... Something special inside. You can't simply see it from talking to someone or looking in their eyes or what not. You'd have to spend some time with them in difficult situations before you could make that call.

But there really is a definite emotional and psychological component that outweighs physical conditioning or even experience. Those who start in poor shape or with no experience have more hurdles to overcome, but with the right mental attitude, this can be done, particularly on the AT, with the host of supports inherent to the typical north-bound thru-hike. Those with this streak of stubbornness in their nature are much more likely to succeed IMO.
Stubborness and the ability to be flexible.Mental, physical and spiritual preparation. The ability to accept life with all its twists and turns on life's terms. Being able to hold on to a goal while being flexible about how the goal is achieved.

CoyoteWhips
12-16-2007, 07:36
Statistics is just math. Out of about 2,000 people, 400 have a one-hundred-percent chance of finishing, 1600 have zero chance. There is no way of telling who's in which group before they've all stopped hiking.

kayak karl
12-16-2007, 08:10
I read a business book called "Good to Great" where the author wrote of the "Stockdale Paradox". It was coined for POW Admiral Stockdale (later Ross Perot's running mate). The gist of it was the idea that those POWs who did best were the men who had an enduring faith that they would prevail in the end, but who also were very realistic about the magnitudue of the difficulties which lay ahead.

Seems like that way of thinking could help on the Trail, too.

From Google:
i am going to print that on a small card, laminate it and take it with me in 2008. great story:sun

highway
12-16-2007, 08:14
Maybe you miss my point. I think there are ways one can improve one's odds. How can one do so?

Develop your mental "sticktoitivness"!

Marta
12-16-2007, 09:09
Many people who are in that 20%-who-finish group have persevered through an obstacle that other hikers chose to quit over--giardia, Lyme disease, injury, family problems, money problems... So, yeah, as everyone else has said, the recipe for success is a weird blend of having the stubborness to stick with the task no matter what and yet the flexibility to change course when roadblocks spring up.

minnesotasmith
12-16-2007, 09:09
Those people are not a representative, random sample and the numbers are way to small to draw any conclusions about hikers in general.

Also, a slack-packer with van support is much more likely to finish than a backpacker.
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I've never seen any over-40, out-of-shape, overweight hikers in the pics I've looked at of WD's paid tour groups.


On another note, I'd be interested to hear what the completion rate is for aspiring thruhikers who've already got one thruhike in the bag. If I did another AT thruhike attempt, I'd be considerably more confident (as well as competent IMO) that I'd finish it than I was setting out on my first one. Likewise, I expect I'd get less of the "he has no F'ing chance at all" judgements on WB. Who'd say the Smokies would knock me out, when I'd already done the Whites and Maine?

rickb
12-16-2007, 09:18
Deleted duplicate post.

rickb
12-16-2007, 09:21
I've never seen any over-40, out-of-shape, overweight hikers in the pics I've looked at of WD's paid tour groups.Perhaps that's part of the answer.

But please keep in mind that the completion rate for those who take Warren's course is also much, much higher than average. These people are not part of Warren's "tour group" as you put it, but rather hike the AT will full packs, on their own.

And they succeed at very high rates.

Do these people do better because only those with "the right stuff" sign up for Warren's courses? Or do the courses actually help them succeed?

My guess is that the answer may be near impossible to find. In any event, the relationship is there, whether it is a causal one or not.

Hikers interested in doing the whole Trail, might think about that. Or not.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-16-2007, 09:26
As I understand it, WD guides people thru the process of preparing mentally and spiritually for the hike. If this is the case, then perhaps those who are not up to the challenge realize this beforehand and never start and those who have some, but not all, of the mental and spiritual qualities develop what they have sufficiently to complete the hike.

SGT Rock
12-16-2007, 10:02
Perhaps it is like counting cards - some things can give you an edge, but it doesn't guarantee a win. So being in shape, having the right attitude, and have some skills, knowledge, and being mentally prepared can increase your margin - but luck and playing the hands your dealt the best way possible are still somewhat still at some level simply chance.

Hooch
12-16-2007, 10:04
Perhaps it is like counting cards - some things can give you an edge, but it doesn't guarantee a win. So being in shape, having the right attitude, and have some skills, knowledge, and being mentally prepared can increase your margin - but luck and playing the hands your dealt the best way possible are still somewhat still at some level simply chance.
Well said, Rock. 41 and a wake up now or so?

SGT Rock
12-16-2007, 10:08
41 and a wake up now - 39 and a wake up until my final out from the Army.

Hooch
12-16-2007, 10:10
41 and a wake up now - 39 and a wake up until my final out from the Army.Good for you, Rock! I know you're looking forward to your thru and a well deserved retirement. Let me know when you need bourbon resupply, I'll get you the good stuff from my neck of the woods right in the heart of bourbon country!

Lone Wolf
12-16-2007, 10:11
Earlier today, I pointed out to someone what I have long believed to be true: some individuals have a better than 20% chance at the outset of completing the A.T. in a continuous hike. I believe there are a number of reasons why one hiker's chances might be better than another's.


of the 20% that do make it most of them didn't have a wonderful time. a lot of them are down right miserable

Hooch
12-16-2007, 10:16
of the 20% that do make it most of them didn't have a wonderful time. a lot of them are down right miserableMaybe the difference is being able to deal with being miserable.

Lone Wolf
12-16-2007, 10:18
Maybe the difference is being able to deal with being miserable.

if it ceases being fun there's no sense in continuing

Marta
12-16-2007, 10:20
if it ceases being fun there's no sense in continuing

You could say that about life itself...however, the alternative shuts out any possibility of fun, ever. So it's best to hike on through the bad times and see what one can do to improve the situation.

superman
12-16-2007, 10:20
Some people can suffer brochure shock longer than others can. Superman's definition of brochure shock: That is when the reality of hiking the AT is at odds with the brochure. The brochure shows the happy, healthy looking young woman hiking on a clear, comfortable day, birds are singing and all is right with the world.

CoyoteWhips
12-16-2007, 10:24
of the 20% that do make it most of them didn't have a wonderful time. a lot of them are down right miserable

Man, that must suck, but at least they can get the patch.

Lone Wolf
12-16-2007, 10:25
Man, that must suck, but at least they can get the patch.

and bragging rights

CoyoteWhips
12-16-2007, 10:28
You could say that about life itself...however, the alternative shuts out any possibility of fun, ever. So it's best to hike on through the bad times and see what one can do to improve the situation.

What are you saying? There's a whole bunch of fun stuff beside hiking the AT.

Do that works. If it doesn't work, do something else.

Hooch
12-16-2007, 10:29
Man, that must suck, but at least they can get the patch.


and bragging rightsTrue, but which is more important; ie: Which would you rather have?

Lone Wolf
12-16-2007, 10:32
True, but which is more important; ie: Which would you rather have?

neither one. i've gotten off the trail twice in Gorham, N.H., less than 300 miles to Katahdin. no regrets. went home happy. saved Maine for a rainy day so to speak.

woodsy
12-16-2007, 10:33
of the 20% that do make it most of them didn't have a wonderful time. a lot of them are down right miserable

Living near the north end of the AT, I have met good # of NOBOs not having a good time. Can't wait to get to Kathadin and "get it over with".
SOBO's are still having fun though:-?

Lone Wolf
12-16-2007, 10:37
the AT is just a recreational walking trail. it was never designed or concieved with thru-hiking in mind. it wasn't laid out to be conquered all in one shot. no need to eat a whole pie at once. eat a slice at a time. section hikers get it

Grampie
12-16-2007, 11:00
[QUOTE=Shades of Gray;474308]Earlier today, I pointed out to someone what I have long believed to be true: some individuals have a better than 20% chance at the outset of completing the A.T. in a continuous hike. I believe there are a number of reasons why one hiker's chances might be better than another's.

I think that all serious thru-hike starters think they will be in the 20% group.
In my estimation you need the personal fortutude, a big desire and a lot of luck to complete a thru-hike.:sun

minnesotasmith
12-16-2007, 11:05
1) Dances With Mice once told me about something he did while reading www.trailjournals.com (http://www.trailjournals.com). He would look at the initial posts in a journal, make a judgement about that hiker's chances of summitting, and flip to the end of their journals to see if in fact they did finish. He found that there was no way to predict who'd make it, and who would not. The older, overweight, overloaded, cheaply-equipped hikers would often make it to get their smiling Katahdin photo ops, while the under-30 slender runner-types with all the best gear and no money problems would bail before Harper's Ferry, even before Damascus. Apparently the main determinant for success is an invisible internal characteristic, not a gear, body, or wallet aspect another hiker can take in in a glance.

2) Discouraging all but the most determined would-be thruhikers from even going to Springer (or Amicalola for the purists ;) ) would certainly raise percent completions among those who'd listen to one's counsel, but would also severely lower the numbers starting (of those listening). I suspect that giving such advice would even lower the total # finishing, as in #1 I noted that so many of those who finish appeared unlikely to other hikers to do so early on.

3) I think virtually everyone gets miserable during a thruhike attempt at one time or another. Things WILL go wrong. I had the block of local-brand cheese I bought in a store turn out to be butter (NC/TN), once underestimated my food and water needs to the point I was near-delirous when I got to town (Hot Springs), had trail runners and my POS Dana Bridger pack blow out within a mile of each other without warning in the middle of nowhere (NC), got turned around and hiked the wrong way over 2 miles once (VA--and shorter distances multiple other times), fell backwards and broke my only jar of counted-on peanut butter 3 miles after a resupply (Pearisburg), had mice chew up my only loaf of bread (501 shelter), ran into a low-hanging branch hard enough to bend my eyeglasses and knock me woozy for a bit (VA), had water sources be unfindable or dry, got Lyme Disease, battled 107 degree days in NJ/PA, had multiple dogs try to bite me (about 6 states), face planted in bogs in Maine, almost slipped and fell unspeakable distances in the Whites and Maine -- yeah, there were plenty of times I wondered WHAT the F I was doing there.

But, then, when...

-a mile north of the shelter near the war correspondent's memorial, I got to stand in a drizzle chatting with three pretty recent-college-graduate female weekend hikers half my age (all three wearing thin, damp t-shirts), getting openly admired for being an aspiring thruhiker...

-when I stood in the Smokies miles from any road taking in a quarter-mile long crystal palace combination of flash-frozen runoff and perched spring outflow...

-when I stood by the sign, atop Katahdin on a chilly, clear day, seemingly half of Maine within my view, reading Robert Service aloud, with two good, tried friends there with me...

-when I got to refer to John 19:30 in a personal sense in the outfitter's back room in Kent, CT, Nov. 20th...

It was all worth it. It was more worth it than I can describe.

4) I would be interested in hearing what other members think or have heard (WRT numerical data) about completion rates for thruhikers who already have one successfully completed thruhike behind them.

5) Saying I read once; don't quit on the Trail when things s*ck. If you quit, do it in town, when you're rested, clean, dry, and have a full belly. Then, you'll know it's not just a bad day, but a bad hike.

Appalachian Tater
12-16-2007, 11:33
As I understand it, WD guides people thru the process of preparing mentally and spiritually for the hike. If this is the case, then perhaps those who are not up to the challenge realize this beforehand and never start and those who have some, but not all, of the mental and spiritual qualities develop what they have sufficiently to complete the hike.

He also pronounces judgment on whether or not he thinks they will finish. This probably both encourages the ones he "approves" and discourages the ones he "disapproves".


If I did another AT thruhike attempt, I'd be considerably more confident (as well as competent IMO) that I'd finish it than I was setting out on my first one.

Your confidence might or might not be a good thing. Also, having already completed the trail once, you don't have the incentive of finishing the trail, you don't have to prove anything to yourself, you've already done it once.


....I have met good # of NOBOs not having a good time. Can't wait to get to Kathadin and "get it over with".

That's okay. Hiking the trail isn't "fun" all the time. Sometimes it's hard work. People thru-hike for different reasons and some of those reasons don't require having a good time.

Also, your emotions and feelings can change quickly, from one extreme to another: from hopelessness to exhilaration, from fear to well-being, from hunger and thirst to satiety, from exhausted to well-rested.

rafe
12-16-2007, 11:55
There's no "formula", as far as I can tell. I have had the experience of quitting a thru hike 650 miles into the trip... and of finally finishing the trail, seventeen years later.

I was a reasonably experienced hiker before my thru attempt, but there was obviously more to the story. My "issues" back then were psychological and emotional. I wasn't injured, homesick, or out of money. I was simply not having fun.

I'm also happy to say that "failing" at my thru hike never soured me to hiking in general. I just went back to my previous M.O. of weekend and long-weekend hikes, in the Whites, the DAKs, local trails, and so on.

When I started my (attempted) thru, I was well-prepared physically but not mentally. My guess is that after 16 years of marriage (to my 2nd and present wife) I'm not the same person I was back then... and somehow I've acquired some patience, perseverence, and a maybe even a certain lightness of heart that made it possible to finish.

If there's a bit of advice I'd offer, it's this: don't ever let another hiker's speed concern you. I spent a lot of time, during those first few weeks in 1990, berating myself for my "slow" pace. Let it go! That kind of thinking is poisonous.

clured
12-16-2007, 11:59
if it ceases being fun there's no sense in continuing

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what you are looking for. Not everyone that thru-hikes is out looking for pure pleasure. Sometimes challenge and absolute dedication to the task at hand are the greatest pleasures.

I spent the whole trail thinking about Moby Dick. I was Ahab, Katahdin was the whale. The trail can get brutal, but that just makes the payoff at the end oh so much sweeter.

SGT Rock
12-16-2007, 12:39
I guess it may also depend on if you decide that hiking all the way to Katahdin is your definition of success. If you definition of success is something else, then making it all the way is not going to be as important. And getting to the point of being flexible - someone that is flexible enough to realize they don't have to hike 2100+ miles to be successful at what they want won't push to finish something they feel they don't have to. In some cases, maybe someone that forces themselves to hike on despite the fact that they already achived everything else they wanted and feels they have to make themselves finish are actually losing out on something.

It is something to think about.

the_iceman
12-16-2007, 12:44
I think the odds are more like 12% to 15% to complete an entire thru-hike without skipping sections but that is just my opinion. One thing I did note is that you have to truly BELIEVE that you are part of that 12% to 15%. These also means as you look around in the beginning you have to know 85% of hte people you see will not stand on Katahdin with you. This takes a huge amount of confidence in yourself and a strong desire to finish. The desire to finish has to be so strong that there are few if any reasons you could ever imagine for not finishing. Once you eliminate any possible reason to quit then you begin to believe.

For me, I knew I had probably only one shot. I put my life and my family’s life on hold while I went I took a very selfish 5,5 month “vacation”. For me to fail would be to fail many people. I had asked other people to sacrifice to give me my shot at a dream and I owed it to them and myself to only quit if I was unable to drag myself to the end. Even in the last weeks a few of us discussed if we broke a leg we would attempt to finish on crutches.

I had a stress fracture in my foot from the rocks in PA and with the help of a physical therapist and lots of tape hiked through it. There were only a few days I really wanted to quit but my trail companions gave me the support to continue.

This will probably one of the most physically and mentally challenging things you will ever undertake but also the most rewarding. Wingfoot always said something like, “If completing a thru-hike is not the most important thing in the world to you right now then do something else.”

the_iceman
12-16-2007, 12:52
If I did it again I think I would hike solo or stay more loosely associated with groups. Don’t get me wrong I had a great partner for most of the trip and was glad for it. But I was solo for about the last 4 weeks and loosely associated with a couple of groups and felt a lot more freedom and really enjoyed myself. The real question is could I have hiked solo the whole way? Now, the answer is yes. Last April, I am not so sure.

dessertrat
12-16-2007, 12:59
Maybe you miss my point. I think there are ways one can improve one's odds. How can one do so?

I think you can improve your odds enormously be being very determined not to quit, by keeping in mind that "slow and steady" wins the race in the long haul, and by keeping yourself from getting sick or injured. (Proper sanitation, footwear and footcare, good diet, and being careful not to fall off a cliff).

Sly
12-16-2007, 13:03
I have no secret to success, because I haven't always been successful but, only injury or running out of money has gotten me off the trail.

Jan LiteShoe
12-16-2007, 13:35
Interesting chat here.

I was lucky enough to seize a relatively unencumbered time in life to hike. In many ways, it's a crap shoot - hard to predict injury, or a happening from home that could pull you off the trail.

On the other hand ...


I also believe hiking with someone else has both good points and bad points, and, sometimes, a pair or small group is more likely to succeed as a group than what the odds would seem to suggest they might as individuals.

I hiked both alone and with fellow travelers during my thru, and I must say that while both experiences were enjoyable to me, if I had to do the entire thru in isolation, I might not have enjoyed myself enough to finish. Sometimes, when I was feeling physically poor, I used their energy to "tug-boat" me along. And the shared laughter went a long way toward making the entire experience memorable. I don't discount the companionship and shared experiences of fellow travelers.

However, on the AT NOBO that's not a choice one really has to make.
:D


In a word, experience. With experience and knowledge comes confidence, sound decisions and reasonable expectations. Of course, someone who is inexperienced but with a boatload of determination can have a great shot.

More than any single factor, making prep hikes boosted my confidence in myself and my chosen gear. Completing the testy Long Trai llet me know in my bones that I could complete the AT - if I wanted to.


A good attitude. A sense of humor and adventure. I'm not even talking about financial, health or family issues... just the psychological game.

Man, do I ever agree with this.
The adventure of it. The land and sky were endlessly fascinating to me. I never got "the long green tunnel" syndrome of boredom.
The people I met made me laugh, and the whole experience evoked an enormous sense of play. For a very precious while, I even lost the ability to worry.
. :banana

Even though there were periods of profound discomfort, the internal sense of glee was never altered in any significant way. I think it was a matter of where my focus was - on FUN!

I just never wanted to go home. Even the few times I doubted my ability to physically make it, I still wanted to be out there.
For one, I knew going home would mean going back to work!
:)



===============================
On another note, I'd be interested to hear what the completion rate is for aspiring thruhikers who've already got one thruhike in the bag. If I did another AT thruhike attempt, I'd be considerably more confident

For me, personally, that sense of "journey" is gone.

I still love hiking, mountains and travel, and of course the confidence is now there, but my focus has shifted. A two- or three-week hike would be about my max these days.

Looking deeply, I honestly don't think I have another "AT thru" in me at this point. My driver is gone. That itchy wish for a journey has vanished. I think a certain restlessness is necessary to complete a thru-hike.

However, I'm old enough to know that everything changes.
Never say never.
:D

I applaud fellow '03 hikers like A-Train, Puf-Puff and Snappy, and Footslogger who went on (or will go on) to thru-hike the PCT. I expect I will walk portions of the CDT to experience that wild, western beauty for myself. Just can't see being gone for long times now. And that urge is fainter.



There's no "formula", as far as I can tell.
(snip)...
If there's a bit of advice I'd offer, it's this: don't ever let another hiker's speed concern you. I spent a lot of time, during those first few weeks in 1990, berating myself for my "slow" pace. Let it go! That kind of thinking is poisonous.

Agreed. I did the same thing for awhile, and it made the hike unpleasant. The "head stuff" is the weight we carry not only into a thru but into life. Go light!
:sun

Thanks for this rainy Sunday opportunity to remember my 2003 hike.
Bottom line: I wouldn't have traded it for anything.

AT-HITMAN2005
12-16-2007, 13:36
these are the things i think would help someone's chances quite a bit.(at the outset at least)

research- gear, trail, towns, weather(knowing what to expect)
good support at home
sufficient money
knowing why you are doing it

if 2 weeks before you leave some friend says they are doing and you say ok i'm going with you. then go out and buy gear with no research, quit your job with only limited money saved-not knowing what to expect. telling family your going and them thinking its a phase or not wanting you to do it anyways. expecting some life changing moment

compared to someone who for the past 2-3 years has been saving money, sitting on the computer every night researching gear, asking questions here or other boards, parents/wife fulling supporting you taking care of bills/maildrops/transportation/emotional support. and knowing you wanted to hike because you love being out in nature and enjoying the challenge for what it is.

2 extremes but i think everyone fits into one category more than the other.
if you could assign a number value to those things at the start you might have a calculator for your chance to finish. maybe. but then you have the intangibles.

Smile
12-16-2007, 13:48
This is a really great thread :)

rafe
12-16-2007, 13:55
... compared to someone who for the past 2-3 years has been saving money, sitting on the computer every night researching gear, asking questions here or other boards, parents/wife fulling supporting you taking care of bills/maildrops/transportation/emotional support. and knowing you wanted to hike because you love being out in nature and enjoying the challenge for what it is.

Umm, I would hope that, from time to time, that "someone" gets off the computer and goes hiking. I'm often amazed, confused, perplexed (etc) by folks who think they want to thru-hike, but have done done little or no hiking, and spent little or no time on the AT. That's not to say such folks won't succeed. I'm just saying... I find it strange.

Bearpaw
12-16-2007, 13:57
if it ceases being fun there's no sense in continuing

But Lone Wolf, if I had quit when the suck factor was high, I would never have continued on to all the other places where I had fantastic fun again.

Freeleo
12-16-2007, 13:57
[quote=Jan LiteShoe;474664]
My driver is gone.
quote]

I'll tell you about the driver who lives inside my head
Starts me up and stops me and puts me into bed
He opens up my mouth when it's time for me to talk
And fires up my legs when he wants me to walk

Keeps my eyes open for most of the day
Adds to my memories the things that people say
When he makes decisions I don't have to wait
But sometimes it seems that he's got too much on his plate

Like this morning when I woke up and he dressed me in this shirt
That looks a little ragged where he dragged me through the dirt
I'm moving through this life and I'm thinking about the next
And hoping when I get there I'll be better dressed


i have been singing this song since i read that post....FWIW i am throwing the odds and percentages out the window....i had some back and forth w/ shades of gray about my thru hike and and i would be curious as to what odds he gives me;) i got the impression he doubts i will make it...even thought i am a "bad ass hiker".....haha....i (a@i) will have to wait and see...

Dances with Mice
12-16-2007, 14:00
1) Dances With Mice once told me about something he did while reading www.trailjournals.com (http://www.trailjournals.com). He would look at the initial posts in a journal, make a judgement about that hiker's chances of summitting, and flip to the end of their journals to see if in fact they did finish. He found that there was no way to predict who'd make it, and who would not. I plead guilty as charged.

Here's a long story I'll try to keep short: 25 years ago when I moved to N. GA there were two great places for a newcomer to meet folks - Friday night high school football games and Saturday night dirt track races. Both were a lot of fun. There were several dirt tracks nearby back then, just flat oval red clay tracks, the same ones where Bill Elliot learned his chops. I got my first invite because our landlord's son was a racer.

The stands divided informally into a family section - kids and no drinkin' - and the good ol' boy section. In the ol' boy seats there was some side betting. Not being adverse to losing a ten now and then, I quickly learned there was no way to predict who would win - everyone got sideways sometimes, some straightened out and some hit the wall. The car with the most experienced driver, best paint job and a 'big' sponsor like the local Goodyear was just as likely to spin out or throw a valve as the Bondo special driven by a kid sponsored by Jim's Well Drilling Service. Even the regulars wouldn't bet on who would win, they bet that Jimmy Ray would finish ahead of Billy Earl, using "inside information" about who just got a new carb or sprung for a set of new tires.

On those little tracks and short races there was too much to go wrong to predict who'd win. Drivers that kept showing up each week got luckier more often but not enough to predict any one race.

It's the same with the AT thru hike candidates - there's too much that can go wrong to predict who will or won't finish. It would be foolish to bet that any one hiker will or will not complete a hike. Well, you know, I mean, without some inside information.

Kirby
12-16-2007, 14:02
From my planing perspective(have not hiked yet), family support has been huge. It took a lot of effort to get my dad on board, but that was a huge boost. I recently received the endorsement of my grandma, that was a huge boost as well. Home base support in general has been a key apsect in my planning.

This is a great thread,
Kirby

dessertrat
12-16-2007, 14:04
But Lone Wolf, if I had quit when the suck factor was high, I would never have continued on to all the other places where I had fantastic fun again.

There are two times in my hiking life when I was "certain" I was going to quit something, but had promised myself a day of rest and contemplation before packing it in. Both times, by the end of a day of rest, I had decided that the "decision to quit" was the rash decision, not the decision to go forward.

emerald
12-16-2007, 14:43
FWIW i am throwing the odds and percentages out the window....i had some back and forth w/ shades of gray about my thru hike and and i would be curious as to what odds he gives me;) i got the impression he doubts i will make it...even thought i am a "bad ass hiker".....haha....i will have to wait and see...

Less than certain what you mean by all that gibberish you posted.

If you have properly tested your gear under conditions you can reasonably expect in the course of your hike, you have successfully completed a 2 week hike and have resolved to continue hiking until you reach the opposite terminus, your odds could be better than 1 in 5.

If you are overweight, carrying excessive weight on your back, lack proper financing or support or have never done anything comparable before and are only hiking for the fun of it and until it no longer is fun, your odds might be more like 1 in 25.;)

I don't know enough about you to provide anything more accurate, but since you are "throwing the odds and percentages out the window" I'm not sure why you asked.

Your success is likely to depend heavily on your motivations for hiking and how much finishing matters to you. If you do succeed, I'm doubtful it will be fun every moment of every day. Have a nice hike.:sun

woodsy
12-16-2007, 15:19
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsy
....I have met good # of NOBOs not having a good time. Can't wait to get to Kathadin and "get it over with".


Tater:That's okay. Hiking the trail isn't "fun" all the time. Sometimes it's hard work. People thru-hike for different reasons and some of those reasons don't require having a good time.

Also, your emotions and feelings can change quickly, from one extreme to another: from hopelessness to exhilaration, from fear to well-being, from hunger and thirst to satiety, from exhausted to well-rested.
I should have also mentioned that I've met some NOBOs who were totally enjoying the journey with comments like "Don't want it to end"

minnesotasmith
12-16-2007, 15:36
On those little tracks and short races there was too much to go wrong to predict who'd win. Drivers that kept showing up each week got luckier more often but not enough to predict any one race.

It's the same with the AT thru hike candidates - there's too much that can go wrong to predict who will or won't finish. It would be foolish to bet that any one hiker will or will not complete a hike. Well, you know, I mean, without some inside information.

Well, DWM, I'd say you had that. You knew that I had a first-rate cooking setup (complete with alcohol stove better than any commerically sold), and most importantly, an absolutely top-notch hiking staff. With those, I was halfway there, gear-wise. ;)

napster
12-16-2007, 18:16
the AT is just a recreational walking trail. it was never designed or concieved with thru-hiking in mind. it wasn't laid out to be conquered all in one shot. no need to eat a whole pie at once. eat a slice at a time. section hikers get it

Right on LW, Although one day I hope to get time to eat the whole pie and it better be a big arcs pie I am still gonna hike my own pace and my own hike at just the way I aim to please meself.As far as I done this at that fast and with this little Wt thats just bragging rights. I've am of no intrest in braggin rights. Who gives a **** if john doe ran the AT in three months or jane doe hiked the whole think with a base wt of 15 lbs.This I know, I will be happy the whole way that I hike no matter how many times It take me to complete the whole AT.Its took me 8 years to get from springer to Va but I aint keeping score so what da hell its my hike , my life.
N......

Almost There
12-16-2007, 18:41
Your hike should be for you, not others. Do it how you want, white blaze, blue blaze, thru-hike, section-hike. One thing is for certain, if you aren't doing it for yourself then it's gonna be more miserable than enjoyable.

warren doyle
12-16-2007, 18:42
I like this thread - much more important than gear talk.

After 35 years of walking and observing on the Appalachian Trail, except for unvoidable injuries (meaning many injuries can be avoided) or serious unexpected illnesses/injuries in the immediate family back home, whether a potential thru-hiker who starts finishes their journey revolves around three variables - the hiker's level of comfort, their temperament, and their threshold of pain.

If these three areas are congruent with what the trail demands then they will have a high completion rate.

My predictive validity is over 80% after talking to numerous northbound newbies south of Fontana Dam several times. The completion/non-completion rate has always been of interest to me.

The element that is lacking in most newbies pre-hike preparation is the philosophical/psychological/spiritual aspect of long distance hiking which is overwhelmed by our culture's emphasis on the physical (i.e. training) and the material (ie. equipment).

We just concluded a fun and informative Appalachian Trail Institute of six dreamers. For more information on the ATI, and a free download of my one-page AT book, see my website below. There is also info concerning the folk, non-commercial 2010 AT Circle Expedition. First practice session is during the four days before (May 13-16) this year's Damascus Trail Days.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-16-2007, 18:43
Right on LW, Although one day I hope to get time to eat the whole pie and it better be a big arcs pie I am still gonna hike my own pace and my own hike at just the way I aim to please meself.As far as I done this at that fast and with this little Wt thats just bragging rights. I've am of no intrest in braggin rights. Who gives a **** if john doe ran the AT in three months or jane doe hiked the whole think with a base wt of 15 lbs.This I know, I will be happy the whole way that I hike no matter how many times It take me to complete the whole AT.Its took me 8 years to get from springer to Va but I aint keeping score so what da hell its my hike , my life.
N......You've hit one of the biggest reasons I'd rather be a section hiker than a thru -- I get to enjoy it without worrying about time or finances or family or hiking when I'm sick, injured or just plain sick of it for a while.

Appalachian Tater
12-16-2007, 18:52
My predictive validity is over 80% after talking to numerous northbound newbies south of Fontana Dam several times.

Total B.S.

But mine is 99% after talking to northbound first-timers in the 100 Mile Wilderness and Baxter State Park.

ARambler
12-16-2007, 19:18
For anyone who wants to complete the trail, I recommend that they obsess about this question... and then don't worry about it. Clearly, there are a lot of factors that affect the probability of success. Many of these can be controlled. However, I don't see how knowing the exact probability helps. How "good" would you feel if you knew your chances were 25%?

Certainly, any hiker can improve his or her odds. Hikers are expected to take responsibility for their hike. You hear phrases like "hike your own hike", and "everyone has bad days, deal with it." The implication that a given hiker cannot improve his/her more than 1%, say from 20% to 21%, is both nonsense and just avoids assigning responsibility.

Note, at the end of the hike, you cannot sew your odds were the 2000 miler rocker goes; you either make it or you don't. There are enough hikers starting, that some of the finishers may have started with 1:25 odds. Those may be acceptable odds. Also, I knew from experience that my odds were greater than 50 %. None-the-less, I'm even more grateful for finishing because that experience has also taught me how so many uncontrollable factors can end a hike.
Rambler

Skits
12-16-2007, 21:47
of the 20% that do make it most of them didn't have a wonderful time. a lot of them are down right miserable

Hmmm, I must be hiking with the right people then. I'd say close to 100-percent of the people I have thru hiked with have had a wonderful time and the small periods of "miserableness" were far outweighed by all the good times. (this includes the PCT and CDT, I didn't actually hike for long distances with many people on the AT).

I'd have to say some of the best months of my life have been on the trail.

rafe
12-16-2007, 22:03
I'd have to say some of the best months of my life have been on the trail.

I wouldn't argue with that sentiment one bit. :D

minnesotasmith
12-16-2007, 22:16
You've hit one of the biggest reasons I'd rather be a section hiker than a thru -- I get to enjoy it without worrying about time or finances or family or hiking when I'm sick, injured or just plain sick of it for a while.

A section hiker does get to pick their weather and season for each part of the Trail, and doesn't have to put their "real" life on hold to the same degree as does a thruhiker. However, there are multiple advantages to hiking the AT as thruhiker.

I believe it is a rare hiker who will begin a successful thruhike or long section hike in as good a shape as they finish it. A thruhiker gets to get in GOOD shape before getting done, and gets to enjoy it on the Trail. A short sectioner doesn't even get all the way into decent condition (if they don't start that way) before ending their hike, while a medium-long one has to end their hike right about the time they're hitting their stride.

Then, there's the social part. A thruhiker has months and months to make genuine deep friendships among people mostly on the same route and general hiking schedule. A sectioner may not have much of anyone on both of those.

Lastly, a sectioner may feel that there is one more level of hiking they "need" to have accomplished on the Trail, to have thruhiked, too. I suspect it's a rare successful thruhiker who'd feel he hadn't REALLY hiked without sectionhiking the AT, too... ;)

rickb
12-16-2007, 22:38
I'd say close to 100-percent of the people I have thru hiked with have had a wonderful time and the small periods of "miserableness" were far outweighed by all the good times.

How about the people you hiked with who quit?

Programbo
12-16-2007, 23:00
Earlier today, I pointed out to someone what I have long believed to be true: some individuals have a better than 20% chance at the outset of completing the A.T. in a continuous hike.

No doubt about it..Some people are 100% likely to complete a thru barring some sort of unexpected injury or illness or family diasater..I think the 20% rate includes the 100`s of people who have no clue at all what they are attempting to do (I`m amazed at the number who start a thru and have NO backpacking experience of any sort.."What should I pack?")....I think it all gets down to WHY someone is doing it in the first place and WHY they backpack..Obviously someone who has hiked seriously for many years is there for reasons that keep drawing them back and they will have great success..Someone who thinks it`s all some sort of 2,200 mile spring break reality tv adventure of trail names, trail magic, hiker towns, parades, hostels etc is in for a rude awakening when they are alone in the rain and trudging up a 6,000 foot bald or having 1,000 gnats circling their face in 95 degree heat or..Wait..What was this thread about?

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 01:17
I believe it is a rare hiker who will begin a successful thruhike or long section hike in as good a shape as they finish it. A thruhiker gets to get in GOOD shape before getting done, and gets to enjoy it on the Trail. A short sectioner doesn't even get all the way into decent condition (if they don't start that way) before ending their hike, while a medium-long one has to end their hike right about the time they're hitting their stride.

Then, there's the social part. A thruhiker has months and months to make genuine deep friendships among people mostly on the same route and general hiking schedule. A sectioner may not have much of anyone on both of those.

Minnesota hit that nail on the head. Also, there is something a little trancedential about doing the whole thing - walking from end to end, season to season.

I've met a lot of section hikers who are really cool and just great people... and I've met a lot who feel the NEED to throw in why section hiking is better. Are they so insecure? They should know that their hike is as good for them as they want it to be and they don't need to impress thru-hikers with all their sectioning advantages. I swear - I'd be talking about the weather that day and some section hikers start saying "you know, when you section hike you get to pick the weather".

Let it go - "hike your own hike" doesn't only apply to thru-hikers. Section hikers have to respect too. I know I respect them: besides the many great ones I met and befriended, my dad recently started a plan to section the whole thing, starting at the age of 55.
I'm proud of anything that you're proud of. :)

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 01:37
of the 20% that do make it most of them didn't have a wonderful time. a lot of them are down right miserable


Hmmm, I must be hiking with the right people then. I'd say close to 100-percent of the people I have thru hiked with have had a wonderful time and the small periods of "miserableness" were far outweighed by all the good times.


the AT is just a recreational walking trail. it was never designed or concieved with thru-hiking in mind. it wasn't laid out to be conquered all in one shot. no need to eat a whole pie at once. eat a slice at a time. section hikers get it

I summitted with 23 other thru's this year and I can't think of a single one of them who weren't immensely proud of their trip, or who had any regrets... let alone "miserable"! That sounds like something section-hikers say to make themselves feel better about themselves. Remember L Wolf, there's no competition here - do what you like, and don't bring down others. I know you're making that up: one rainy, miserable day does not a miserable trip make. The worse the days the greater the accomplishment, I say. In case you're wondering, I had enough great days to be happy almost the entire trip, and enough rough days to be that much prouder at overcoming it all.

Oh, how this brings back memories of the trail!... when section hikers tried to bring me down by saying "the trail was never laid out to be hiked all in one shot". When you're at a restaurant do you really walk around and chastise people who eat more than one piece of pie at once? What if it's a small pie? What if some people have bigger stomachs? How embarrassing that you think you know what's the right size for someone. Do section-hikers squable amoung themselves about who is hiking too long or short of a section? What if someone hikes 2,000mi one year and 174 the next? Are they still a smart, savy, section hiker? What if someone sectioned in 2-day increments? Are months okay? My dad did a 9 day section this year - was that okay? I'd hate to presume to know what is the right length of hike for other people, I would just be embarrassed silly!

- Sudoku

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 01:43
Oops 3 posts in a row...

I just remembered the first thing I wanted to post when I saw this thread.

To have better than a 20% chance I agree that you need to be very stubborn.

I also think it helps a lot to know... that you don't have anything better to come home to. I didn't have a career, house, wife, kids, dog... why go back! Why not stay in the woods. If every day you stay out there = $200 a day you'd be getting at your job... it might be a tougher decision for you, I wouldn't know. But I do know I had no such temptations to leave the glorious Appalachia!

- Sudoku

ScottP
12-17-2007, 01:58
I've read that the CDT success rate is around 75%.

Skits
12-17-2007, 03:30
How about the people you hiked with who quit?

I haven't hiked with very many people who quit. I really haven't, but the percentages of people who finish thru-hikes on the PCT and CDT is much higher than the AT. The only people who I spent a lot of time with that quit where because of reasons of injury of weather, not because they were miserable.

The first half of the AT where the highest number of people would be quitting I really didn't hike with anyone for more than a part of a day as I was unable to keep up with most of their hiking paces.

(I weighed 293 pounds at the start and was not in shape. I almost quit several times over the first three weeks. The first shelter I stayed at there were 17 people at it and that was not what I had wandered in the woods for. Then it got cold and rainy and one day I only went four miles. I got poison ivy and took three days off the trail in Franklin. I had moved from Alaska and quit my job to thru hike and told myself I would not give up until I at least made it to the Smokies. - I was miserable. - But then it kept getting better and better. I got in shape. I made life-long friends on the trail. I even turned down a job offer to keep hiking. I enjoyed the accomplishment, but I enjoyed the journey even more.)

I suppose most of my friends from the PCT and CDT are people that had thru-hiked before so the odds were in their favor to finish again. I don't think that thru-hiking is for everybody. But it is definitely for me. If somebody likes to section hike I wouldn't try to convince them a thru-hike is better. How would I know I've never section hiked.

the_iceman
12-17-2007, 07:46
I ran into a few people who just decided to "go for it" and never hiked before and finished. One guy had to do a total refit at Mountain Crossings and started really slow. The key was they were mentally committed because they had the DESIRE.

When they discovered they had all the wrong equipment they just bought the right equipment. When they could not keep up with other hikers they just walked slower until they got stronger. When I talked to them I realized they never had to struggle with quitting because they had not even considered it.

I know other avid hikers who hated it. Shakedown hikes are good to test equipment and to find out if you really hate camping or not. But the success on the AT (if you call completing a success, to some people that is not the measure) is really found in endurance over the long haul. A 2 week trip cannot simulate a 5 month trip. Hiking the trail can turn into a job if your attitude starts to slip and your desire wanes.

Gear is good, if you like gear, but I hiked with a guy who cooked over a fire with an old pot and carried a 45 lb external frame pack. He used simple, basic, gear and had a great thru hike. I recall another guy, on his 3rd attempt, with all the latest gear and a reason why each piece of his gear was better than everyone else’s and would be the reason he would finish and we would not. He lasted less than a month.

How you react to situations may be more of an indication of your ability to complete a thru-hike than anything else. If you are the type of person that gets ticked off when things do not go your way or wants to go home when it rains the first 3 days of vacation then maybe a thru-hike is not for you. If you are the person who looks for an alternative method when things don’t work or tries to figure out something else to do to “save” the vacation even though it is going to rain the whole time, then you are probably better equipped to deal with what the trail will throw at you.

The trails is, you are the one that must bend to meet it.

rickb
12-17-2007, 07:57
I think Warren Doyle may be on to something about tolerance to pain and comfort level.

When it comes to blisters, shin splints and various soft-tissue injuries, you would think that some people just broke a leg or had an MI.

Others seem to manage one way or another.

Same with rain, weight, bugs and the pain of loneliness. And all the rest.

the_iceman
12-17-2007, 08:32
Programbo -
Not to deviate but a nice Bob Seger tag line from one of my favorite songs. I just noticed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe7yOccqdxI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe7yOccqdxI)

Maybe an inspiration for a few potential thru hikers.

SGT Rock
12-17-2007, 09:35
Good song. A small re-tool of the lyrics and it would make a good entry for the talent contest at trail days.

dessertrat
12-17-2007, 10:00
I've read that the CDT success rate is around 75%.

Probably because you don't set out on that trail without having your s**t extremely square already. The AT, while a great trail, attracts a lot of people because it is close to civilization and is easy to quit, easy to resupply from, etc.

ARambler
12-17-2007, 11:01
I've read that the CDT success rate is around 75%.
The reason so few people understand the probability of success is that they treat information like this as accurate. Unfortunately, this post is now also in bad taste.
Rambler

Spirit Walker
12-17-2007, 12:07
I knew one woman who quit because she developed blisters. I've known others who continued with broken bones.

As others have said, it is the mental aspect that is most important and least predictable. How badly do you want to continue? Sometimes it's because the hiker is happy out there, sometimes it's that they are too stubborn to quit. Have you read "Then the Hail Came"? He NEEDED to finish. For some hiking the AT is basically just another vacation. For others it's a pilgrimage. For others a lifestyle. Which is more likely to finish?

Almost There
12-17-2007, 12:21
Not all section-hikers pick their own weather, as a teacher I hike when I can, which usually means starting when it's hot.

Sudoku, section hikers often feel defensive because we always get the question from day hikers and townsfolk, "Are you a thru-hiker?" Now with hikers I am always honest, as I have a couple of past thru friends who had always thought that I had hiked the whole trail and we'd be out on a trail and it would come up and I'd just say, nope haven't done the whole thing yet. As for others, I lie, lie, lie. If I am out for 2 weeks or a month I have no problem telling that guy that might shuttle me that I am going thru. Why? Because most sectioners have learned the hard way that some people treat thru's better, and some thru's act like they're better than. That being said, most of 'em that I have hiked with have been great down to earth people, but as you know it only takes a couple to make it worse for the rest.

As for CDT completion rates, quite often those who set out to do this trail have thousands of miles already under their belt, there are many who have hiked both the AT and PCT, already. They are the veteran hiker, so 75% isn't that amazing, they completely live for this stuff. Unlike people who hear about the AT and wanna give it a try, these folk know what they are doing from the moment they begin planning.

Lone Wolf
12-17-2007, 12:30
If I am out for 2 weeks or a month I have no problem telling that guy that might shuttle me that I am going thru. Why? Because most sectioners have learned the hard way that some people treat thru's better, and some thru's act like they're better than.


i try to treat everybody the same but i admit i like to shuttle section hikers more. thru-hikers are always pleading poverty. they come thru damascus and want to slackpack but don't want to pay. you tell them you'll meet them at 7AM, show up and they're still in bed. i don't give shuttles any more to thru-hikers. rare cases sometimes. sectioners are always willing to give more and are a lot more pleasant

dessertrat
12-17-2007, 12:41
i try to treat everybody the same but i admit i like to shuttle section hikers more. thru-hikers are always pleading poverty. they come thru damascus and want to slackpack but don't want to pay. you tell them you'll meet them at 7AM, show up and they're still in bed. i don't give shuttles any more to thru-hikers. rare cases sometimes. sectioners are always willing to give more and are a lot more pleasant

What do you mean? They pay you to take their packs on ahead so they won't have to carry them? I though the idea behind being a thru-hiker was to. . . ummm. . . hike through.

Lone Wolf
12-17-2007, 12:45
What do you mean? They pay you to take their packs on ahead so they won't have to carry them? I though the idea behind being a thru-hiker was to. . . ummm. . . hike through.

no. they leave thier stuff at a hostel and i drive them 20 miles out, they hike back in and party. some do this for many days. they got $$$ for beer, dope, cigarettes but never seem to have it for shuttles and lodging. hostels are pretty much flop-houses anymore

dessertrat
12-17-2007, 12:47
no. they leave thier stuff at a hostel and i drive them 20 miles out, they hike back in and party. some do this for many days. they got $$$ for beer, dope, cigarettes but never seem to have it for shuttles and lodging

Where I grew up, that is what we would call "numb" behavior.

rafe
12-17-2007, 13:37
sectioners are always willing to give more and are a lot more pleasant

Maybe cuz section hikers have real jobs, thus real incomes. Plus, (because of the previous item) they don't take their "free time" for granted.

OK, that's a gross generalization, I admit...

minnesotasmith
12-17-2007, 13:44
i drive them 20 miles out, they hike back in... some do this for many days.

Please leave aside the admittedly not-trivial issues of ethics, fairness, and maturity involved in being chemical abusers (booze and tobacco as well as the illegal stuff). Do not people who can manage to successfully hike repeated 20-mile days on the AT merit some kind of respect from you as hikers, however begrudging? (Please keep in mind that more than one slackpacker carries a heavier pack than no small % of the IMO-overesteemed ULers.)

Lone Wolf
12-17-2007, 13:49
Please leave aside the admittedly not-trivial issues of ethics, fairness, and maturity involved in being chemical abusers (booze and tobacco as well as the illegal stuff). Do not people who can manage to successfully hike repeated 20-mile days on the AT merit some kind of respect from you as hikers, however begrudging?

huh? respect? no. doing 20 miles around here packless ain't no biggie.

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 14:43
thru-hikers are always pleading poverty. they come thru damascus and want to slackpack but don't want to pay. sectioners are always willing to give more and are a lot more pleasant

As someone already stated, many sectioners are going back to their careers -- not jobs, careers -- next week. They have a lot of cash. I, on my thru-hike... I didn't tend to give as much money to people whom I could tell were expecting me to give. Comments like "sectioners are willing to give more" makes me wonder if giving rides to hikers or getting cash is the goal there. I loved giving money to people who don't expect it because it makes me so happy to *give back*. On the trail I loved how it was about the giving, not about the prices. Oh - and all thru's know the game already by Damascus - everyone in Erwin charges plenty for slackpacking, I saw the prices.


Not all section-hikers pick their own weather, as a teacher I hike when I can, which usually means starting when it's hot.

Sudoku, section hikers often feel defensive because we always get the question from day hikers and townsfolk, "Are you a thru-hiker?"

(that's awesome - I'm thinking of becoming a teacher, and the prospect of hiking every summer is delightful!)

Those are good points there. I'd say if you're true to yourself you should be genuinely happy with telling people your reason for being out there. For the townspeople you can always smile and say "nah, I'm just out to do a couple hundred miles of this wonderful trail." I admit, it's sometimes uncanny how often hikers ask if you're hiking thru, even without knowing you. If you've gone 100 miles you look like a thru-hiker anyway to most people - and of course if you can do the first 100 you can probably do all of it anyway... LASH's look just like thru's I think.


huh? respect? no. doing 20 miles around here packless ain't no biggie.

I find it's nice to respect people no matter how big the challenge - even if it ain't a biggie. Not everyone's looking for the challenge anyway, some might just love SW VA.

- Sudoku

Lone Wolf
12-17-2007, 14:58
[QUOTE=Sudoku;475645]As someone already stated, many sectioners are going back to their careers -- not jobs, careers -- next week. They have a lot of cash. I, on my thru-hike... I didn't tend to give as much money to people whom I could tell were expecting me to give. Comments like "sectioners are willing to give more" makes me wonder if giving rides to hikers or getting cash is the goal there. I loved giving money to people who don't expect it because it makes me so happy to *give back*. On the trail I loved how it was about the giving, not about the prices. Oh - and all thru's know the game already by Damascus - everyone in Erwin charges plenty for slackpacking, I saw the prices.


you got it all wrong son. sectioners don't have a lot of cash. i've shuttled plenty that had jobs, not careers and were laid off and went hiking between jobs.
"all thrus know the game already by damascus". what the hell does that mean? people charging a certain price to haul your ass through the mountains so you can slack and get back to town to party ain't a game. gas, wear and tear on a vehicle costs $$. stay in the woods if you can't afford to stay and play.
i give lots of shuttles dirt cheap or free MOSTLY to sectioners. they're more appreciative. they don't act elitist like some "thrus"

rafe
12-17-2007, 15:01
No point picking a fight between section hikers and thru hikers, or claiming either group is "better" in any way.

OTOH, if I had to generalize... thru-hikers tend to be a younger bunch, fresh out of school or the military, with lots of free time but not that much cash. Section hikers in this regard are the opposite: they section rather than thru precisely because they have jobs, careers or families, and they're likely to be better off (with regard to $$) but constrained by free time.

OF COURSE, this is a major generalization and there are numerous exceptions for both cases I've made above. Thru-hikers and sectioners can be found from all ages and economic strata.

I have nothing but the highest regard for anyone that has succesfully hiked the lenght of the AT in one go. OTOH, I'm reasonably proud of having pulled of a section hike of the AT... even if it was over a period of decades instead of weeks or months.

And finally... is there really that much difference between a 600 mile section hike and a thru-hike? At some point the difference is really negligible, IMO.

SGT Rock
12-17-2007, 15:10
Please leave aside the admittedly not-trivial issues of ethics, fairness, and maturity involved in being chemical abusers (booze and tobacco as well as the illegal stuff). Do not people who can manage to successfully hike repeated 20-mile days on the AT merit some kind of respect from you as hikers, however begrudging? (Please keep in mind that more than one slackpacker carries a heavier pack than no small % of the IMO-overesteemed ULers.)Not really. I can't see how hiking 20 miles days repeatedly garners respect in any way.

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 15:15
you got it all wrong son. sectioners don't have a lot of cash. i've shuttled plenty that had jobs, not careers and were laid off and went hiking between jobs.
"all thrus know the game already by damascus". what the hell does that mean? people charging a certain price to haul your ass through the mountains so you can slack and get back to town to party ain't a game. gas, wear and tear on a vehicle costs $$. stay in the woods if you can't afford to stay and play.
i give lots of shuttles dirt cheap or free MOSTLY to sectioners. they're more appreciative. they don't act elitist like some "thrus"

Wait, so... "thru-hikers come in pleading poverty!" while "sectioners don't have a lot of cash". Sounds like they're about the same after-all!... sorry if it sounded like all sectioners are in the middle of $200,000 careers... what I meant was that they *more often* are in the middle of careers (almost all thru-hikers have to quit so... "more often" is pretty easy to say), and that they'll be returning to money next week.

"What the hell does that mean?" The hell it means is... thru-hikers know you gotta pay if you want to slackpack, because they've seen the prices in Erwin. If you're gonna say all thru-hikers try to get away with doing it for free and don't expect to pay... I'm going to say you're exaggerating, and... maybe lying to make a point.

Hey man, if you're worried about money just tell people you're worried about money. Don't give if you're expecting to recieve.

Isn't saying sectioners don't act elitist kind of ironic when in other posts you're saying "section hiking's the way to do it, it's the best!" That's sort of funny. You're a section hiker cracking on thru-hikers... and I'm a thru-hiker saying you should respect everyone for what they want to do.

Funny! :banana

- Sudoku

Lone Wolf
12-17-2007, 15:30
"What the hell does that mean?" The hell it means is... thru-hikers know you gotta pay if you want to slackpack, because they've seen the prices in Erwin. If you're gonna say all thru-hikers try to get away with doing it for free and don't expect to pay... I'm going to say you're exaggerating, and... maybe lying to make a point.

Hey man, if you're worried about money just tell people you're worried about money. Don't give if you're expecting to recieve.

Isn't saying sectioners don't act elitist kind of ironic when in other posts you're saying "section hiking's the way to do it, it's the best!" That's sort of funny. You're a section hiker cracking on thru-hikers... and I'm a thru-hiker saying you should respect everyone for what they want to do.

Funny! :banana

- Sudoku

how much shuttling do you do? what trail town do you live in? i don't exxagerate or lie. i've done a lot of shuttling. i know what i'm talking about

i ain't worried about money. i do shuttles real cheap. don't ask for a ride if you're not expecting to pay

i'm not section or thru hiker. just a hiker but i've done more thru-hiking than you

funny :banana

Mags
12-17-2007, 15:36
I'm just a simple outdoors person.


I just enjoy the outdoors and any time I can spend out there. Be it a day, a wekeend, three weeks or four months. I've done it all..I've enjoyed it all.


I'll leave the labels for people who really care about this sort of silly thing. :)

Mags
12-17-2007, 15:38
I suppose most of my friends from the PCT and CDT are people that had thru-hiked before so the odds were in their favor to finish again.


Or maybe your friends from the CDT are just odd? ;)



(Skits put up with me way too many times on the CDT! :D)

The Solemates
12-17-2007, 15:40
i felt like our chance of success was close to 100%, but like you say, all hikers are different. i had lots of experience beforehand, which helped.

but if my wife would not have gone with me, my chance of success would have dropped closer to the average because I would have had difficulty being away for so long. I've done solo week-long hikes since our thru, and I had more difficulty on these than I did on my 5-month thru. for those 5-6 months, a thru-hike becomes a way of life so that you know no different. you know you have family, etc. on a week-long hike.

Blissful
12-17-2007, 15:44
Not really. I can't see how hiking 20 miles days repeatedly garners respect in any way.


Aw man. So much for all those 20s we did in the hundred mile wilderness and we passed lots of hikers. I thought someone somewhere would be impressed.

Man oh man. :D


Actually...what garners respect on White Blaze is how few mail drops a thru hiker has....

I had 30.

So I will never have any...

(ha ha :))

Blissful
12-17-2007, 15:47
I took it one day at a time. I knew the odds were long. I had people tell me we'd never make it. I had support at home, but even my hubby didn't think I would make it until we crossed into PA (come to find out). And my dad didn't believe it until Gorham, NH.

It's something YOU gotta want...real bad. You and no one else.

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 15:48
how much shuttling do you do? what trail town do you live in? i don't exxagerate or lie. i've done a lot of shuttling. i know what i'm talking about

i ain't worried about money. i do shuttles real cheap. don't ask for a ride if you're not expecting to pay

i'm not section or thru hiker. just a hiker but i've done more thru-hiking than you



Ohhh Lone Wolf... you could tell me why the ATC doesn't keep records right?

It's because THIS ISN'T A COMPETITION, pops.

oh - and, *never* use my banana again!!!!

:banana:banana:banana Sudoku :banana:banana:banana

SGT Rock
12-17-2007, 15:49
Naw, I have respect for people that are both helpful to others and keep their minds open. Hiking big miles has been done by people that can do neither of those things. If you can do that and walk big miles, then great - but it won't be the big miles I respect you for.

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 15:51
i felt like our chance of success was close to 100%, but like you say, all hikers are different. i had lots of experience beforehand, which helped.


I know what you mean about the 100%... but I knew a thru-hiker this year who twisted her ankle in the easiest part of NH - such an unfitting end. She had every reason to believe she was 100% but sometimes no amount of preparedness or experience can guarantee you, I guess :(

- Sudoku

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 15:52
Naw, I have respect for people that are both helpful to others and keep their minds open. Hiking big miles has been done by people that can do neither of those things. If you can do that and walk big miles, then great - but it won't be the big miles I respect you for.

Beautifully put!

- Sudoku

Blissful
12-17-2007, 15:57
I know what you mean about the 100%... but I knew a thru-hiker this year who twisted her ankle in the easiest part of NH - such an unfitting end. She had every reason to believe she was 100% but sometimes no amount of preparedness or experience can guarantee you, I guess :(

- Sudoku


It's tough out there. I twisted mine on an easy part in Mass. Thankfully I had time to help it mend and then get back out there. Good to start your hike early and have time in case you do have injuries. We used a total of one month off trail - three of those weeks were due to injury (I had two injuries). We had also done our neck of the woods early too- SNP and Northern VA. If we hadn't we probably would not have completed this year.

Appalachian Tater
12-17-2007, 16:08
I know what you mean about the 100%... but I knew a thru-hiker this year who twisted her ankle in the easiest part of NH - such an unfitting end. She had every reason to believe she was 100% but sometimes no amount of preparedness or experience can guarantee you, I guess :(

- Sudoku

One thru-hiker who started in Key West fell halfway up Katahdin where the iron rungs are and broke his arm. That's why even at Abol Bridge you can only predict with 99% certainty who will finish.

rafe
12-17-2007, 17:34
Sometimes "success" has more to do with avoidance of mistakes and injuries than anything else. That's one lesson I took away from my days of racing sailboats... and one reason I'm content to call myself "terrapin".

Footslogger
12-17-2007, 17:47
Maybe the title of this thread should be ...

"Some hikers better than a 20% chance - Considering only on-trail influences and excluding injury"

'Slogger

dessertrat
12-17-2007, 17:53
Sometimes "success" has more to do with avoidance of mistakes and injuries than anything else. That's one lesson I took away from my days of racing sailboats... and one reason I'm content to call myself "terrapin".

Amen to that. I once asked a seasoned defense attorney why he didn't "make a deal" early when his client's case looked hopeless. He said "because I'm waiting for the other side to make a procedural mistake sometime before trial. Sometimes they do."

Jack Tarlin
12-17-2007, 18:00
Everything Lone Wolf said about thru hikers going on the cheap, taking things for granted, and expecting everything under the sun for free is correct.

In particular, his comments about people wanting to spend several evenings in Damascus partying, while still getting some miles in during the day, and expecting to get ferried around God's creation for free is 100% accurate.

Everyone has money for beer and pizza in town, but if you ask them to throw in on any other expenses, all of a sudden, they plead extreme poverty and expect the world to feed them, house them, ferry them around, or pay their bills.

I've seen it. And it's getting tired.

If I'm home in August this year, there will be an open door policy at my place, FOR PEOPLE I KNOW, or people I've hiked with. And they will be welcome, they'll be treated great, and they'll eat like kings. Other than that, I've about had it with running PeeWee's playhouse for freeloaders, never mind having to count the spoons after your houseguests have left.

I'm giving money this Christmas to my church; to a group raising money for injured veterans; and to the local Humane Society.

As a rule, thru-hikers don't need......and in many cases, don't deserve charity.

You have six months to go hiking? Great!!

Do it on your own dime, snooks.

Lone Wolf
12-17-2007, 18:12
Everything Lone Wolf said about thru hikers going on the cheap, taking things for granted, and expecting everything under the sun for free is correct.

In particular, his comments about people wanting to spend several evenings in Damascus partying, while still getting some miles in during the day, and expecting to get ferried around God's creation for free is 100% accurate.

Everyone has money for beer and pizza in town, but if you ask them to throw in on any other expenses, all of a sudden, they plead extreme poverty and expect the world to feed them, house them, ferry them around, or pay their bills.

I've seen it. And it's getting tired.

If I'm home in August this year, there will be an open door policy at my place, FOR PEOPLE I KNOW, or people I've hiked with. And they will be welcome, they'll be treated great, and they'll eat like kings. Other than that, I've about had it with running PeeWee's playhouse for freeloaders, never mind having to count the spoons after your houseguests have left.

I'm giving money this Christmas to my church; to a group raising money for injured veterans; and to the local Humane Society.

As a rule, thru-hikers don't need......and in many cases, don't deserve charity.

You have six months to go hiking? Great!!

Do it on your own dime, snooks.

i do have to say that what jack and i describe primarily takes place with 20something year old males. there are plenty of thru-hikers that don't fit that mold and are responsible and do the right thing

Jack Tarlin
12-17-2007, 18:33
I do have to say Wolf is right on that one, too. I spoke too soon. The vast majority of folks who've stayed with us in Hanover over the years would be welcome back any time.

However, there are a few others who will live in infamy......... :rolleyes:

clured
12-17-2007, 18:52
Everything Lone Wolf said about thru hikers going on the cheap, taking things for granted, and expecting everything under the sun for free is correct.

In particular, his comments about people wanting to spend several evenings in Damascus partying, while still getting some miles in during the day, and expecting to get ferried around God's creation for free is 100% accurate.

Everyone has money for beer and pizza in town, but if you ask them to throw in on any other expenses, all of a sudden, they plead extreme poverty and expect the world to feed them, house them, ferry them around, or pay their bills.

I've seen it. And it's getting tired.

If I'm home in August this year, there will be an open door policy at my place, FOR PEOPLE I KNOW, or people I've hiked with. And they will be welcome, they'll be treated great, and they'll eat like kings. Other than that, I've about had it with running PeeWee's playhouse for freeloaders, never mind having to count the spoons after your houseguests have left.

I'm giving money this Christmas to my church; to a group raising money for injured veterans; and to the local Humane Society.

As a rule, thru-hikers don't need......and in many cases, don't deserve charity.

You have six months to go hiking? Great!!

Do it on your own dime, snooks.

It sucks people do that. I'd say just have a no-slacking policy, or charge some ridiculous fee ($10 per slack-mile?!) so that people don't do it. But I know some people think its the greatest thing ever, so I'm sure I'll get yelled at.

Almost There
12-17-2007, 18:52
Well said Jack and Wolf. Generally I just consider myself a hiker, and like I said I am always honest with other hikers and townsfolk I know about how far I'm going, but if telling a local that I am a thru-hiker is gonna get me a ride to town, then I'll tell them that, heck if I've been hiking 100 miles already in 80+ degree weather in late June, then I feel like I deserve that ride, and on top of it I always offer money even if not asked. I'm a teacher so I ain't rich, but I figure if someone is helping me out then I can return the favor. Wolf has shuttled me a couple of times and I know if I am going near Damascus that he will hook me up, and in return I'm gonna give him whatever he asks. Some young thru's need to learn that you shouldn't ask, "Can I get a ride?" You should ask, "How much do you want for the ride?" With gas prices what they are today that is the "only" fair thing to do. It's amazing when you don't act like you are owed, and offer money how many people turn your money down and are just glad to help. No one likes to be taken for granted.

As someone who mostly does sections I have come to realize that I need local shuttlers, etc. to make a successful hike. I am going from point a to point b and need to get back to my car, or whatever ride I am using to get home. If no one was offering services it would make it very hard. So treat the locals right, and they'll treat you right!

Jack Tarlin
12-17-2007, 18:58
Sometimes you practically have to threaten Wolf to get him to take money for a ride.

He's not about the money.

But Almost There is right. If someone is helping you out, you should ALWAYS try and give them something, or at least ask, especially on longer rides.

Likewise, people shouldn't offer rides where they expect money without being up front about it, i.e. if you wanna help someone out, great. But just as there are freeloading hikers, there are indeed folks who hang out at road crossings and pretend to be good samaritans and aw shucks Christains....... and then, when you're getting outta the car, hit you up for 10 bucks.

Either way is wrong.

If someone helps you out, offer them something in return. If you're helping someone out and EXPECT compensation, well make that clear before they get in the car. If you're providing a service, and not doing it for the helluva it, make this clear, too. People can then decide for themselves whether or not to avail themselves of your service or they can pass it by. But if you use a service, be prepared to pay for it, always.

Mags
12-17-2007, 19:30
Seeing please and thankyou go a long way to making a good hiker representative.

And sending a thankyou card after the hike is ALWAYS good form, too.

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 19:51
Everything Lone Wolf said about thru hikers going on the cheap, taking things for granted, and expecting everything under the sun for free is correct.



i do have to say that what jack and i describe primarily takes place with 20something year old males. there are plenty of thru-hikers that don't fit that mold and are responsible and do the right thing

Since LW has been good enough to acknowlege the other side of the argument, I will too.

I was talking to Queen Diva, formerly of Bear's Den, about what demographic hikers there are. We got to talking about this kind of hiker, and that... I eventually uttered the word "entitled" and she jumped all over it. "I wasn't going to bring it up, but since you did: yes, definitely, hikers this year have been more entitled - it's been increasing each year I think."

This is a problem throughout our culture too, though. Employees stealing office equipment because they think they're "entitled" to it because they don't get paid enough... hikers think they deserve "magic" because how hot it's been and how special they think they are... I think we might be seeing it on the trail more because it has become more accessible, with cheaper, lighter, faster gear becoming available.

I'd like to say that I'm a good person anyway. But living on the trail, you can't help but experience the goodness that is out there. I don't believe anyone is so oblivious that they can see all the giving that occurs and not want to give back. The trail is still an inspiring place, and I will not believe that "almost everyone" is a cheap-skate, free-loading, moocher. The trail is still a magical place... I suppose it is important that we have conversations like this to keep driving home how important it is to give. I won't believe that the bad news is so prevalent.

I saw a wonderful sign in Maryland: it said "Some people pack out their trash with them. THANK YOU." Rather than ragging on people "pick up your trash, don't litter!!!!" we finally see a sign thanking the good people, acknowleging the good people, and *setting an example* that more people should be as good as these good people.

Almost There
12-17-2007, 19:52
This all reminded me of my section hike in Va in 2006. My partner and I come down off of Priest Mtn and on the way down I do something bad to my right quad muscle. We decide that we're gonna try to get a hold of a shuttler in the area to try and get to Waynesboro as my leg is buckling quite a bit. We run into a gal we last saw at Rice Field, she's been slacking the last couple of days using the same shuttler we were gonna call and tells us she's meeting him down at the parking area. We ask her to ask him to wait and she says no problem. We get down and sure enough he's there. He offers up free sodas and snickers and starts the long shuttle up to Waynesboro. Once there we ask him what we owe, he tells us whatever we thing is fair. I pull out a twenty and so does my partner...and the thru-hiking gal??? She pays nothing! Now I admit that $40 for the distance is probably fair, so I am thinking as we had offered to take her to dinner as our car is there that maybe she is thinking of buying us a beer or something. Nope. Nada. Zip.

The only other bad experience with Thru's was in Daleville sitting by the pool drinking beer with some thru's. I was hiking with a gal, and the young men there immediately started flirting. I'm married, no biggie to me, they give her one of their beers. I go to buy some and come back. We're sitting there and a couple more people show up from the trail including another girl. He looks at me and tells me that the beer he gave my partner was actually for the other girl who just showed up and that seeing as he gave a beer to my partner I should give one to the girl who just showed up. The attitude given kind of pissed me off as I would have offered one anyway. On top of this, as they were taking a zero the next day I gave up all the rest of my beer to this other girl the next morning. The point is if you are gonna do something nice it shouldn't be with the expectation that you are gonna be given something in return.

It's this sense of entitlement that has turned me off from some young and I stress young thru's.

Also remember some young thru's may hike the AT once and never again, whereas most section hikers will spend years if not decades piecing together the trail to completion. Both are dedicated but with completely different types of dedication.

dessertrat
12-17-2007, 20:03
Some folks just have no class. That's all. And in the world of parents raising and tolerating iPod-wearing crotch-grabbing pants-hanging-down-buttcrack sidewayse ballcap yo-dudes, what do you expect, I guess? Some parents need to start educating their children, is what, so they don't act like spoiled brats. Either that, or we need to start having mandatory military service so people will learn the basics of both etiquette and citizenship that their parents didn't teach them.

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 20:07
It's this sense of entitlement that has turned me off from some young and I stress young thru's.

Also remember some young thru's may hike the AT once and never again, whereas most section hikers will spend years if not decades piecing together the trail to completion. Both are dedicated but with completely different types of dedication.

Almost there!... everything you said was good and true, albeit pessimistic, but maybe you've had only bad experiences on the trail, I don't know. Then you go and throw in some crap statement like that at the end! I'm 25 years old and didn't I just mention to you in a post that I also plan on becoming a teacher so I can hike every summer (it won't be thru obviously, it would be -gasp!- sectioning).

As far as buying beer goes I guarantee I bought more than twice as much beer as I drank on this trip. Look at my age!! STEREOTYPERS. I know you're going to say "*most* young thrus are bad" next... it still disheartens me to hear people distrusting some people before they even meet them. "Agism," it's called. The wonderful thing about the trail is that I feel comfortable trusting everyone. I do. Out here I lock my car if it's leaving my sight for 20 seconds.

What is going on, putting all these labels on everything?? Do "section hikers" only hike each section once until they've pieced together the whole thing and then never hike again?? Why can't a "thru-hiker" hike pieces of it again after he or she has done it all once?

Why is everyone "hating on" everyone else! FD, can you come in and force everyone to get along and smile in only that way you can?

Lone Wolf
12-17-2007, 20:16
Almost there!... everything you said was good and true, albeit pessimistic, but maybe you've had only bad experiences on the trail, I don't know. Then you go and throw in some crap statement like that at the end! I'm 25 years old and didn't I just mention to you in a post that I also plan on becoming a teacher so I can hike every summer (it won't be thru obviously, it would be -gasp!- sectioning).

As far as buying beer goes I guarantee I bought more than twice as much beer as I drank on this trip. Look at my age!! STEREOTYPERS. I know you're going to say "*most* young thrus are bad" next... it still disheartens me to hear people distrusting some people before they even meet them. "Agism," it's called. The wonderful thing about the trail is that I feel comfortable trusting everyone. I do. Out here I lock my car if it's leaving my sight for 20 seconds.

What is going on, putting all these labels on everything?? Do "section hikers" only hike each section once until they've pieced together the whole thing and then never hike again?? Why can't a "thru-hiker" hike pieces of it again after he or she has done it all once?

Why is everyone "hating on" everyone else! FD, can you come in and force everyone to get along and smile in only that way you can?

you're obviously an exception to the rule. that's great. you were raised correctly. once again nobody is being pessimistic. these are just truthful observations. realism

Appalachian Tater
12-17-2007, 20:21
Almost there!... everything you said was good and true, albeit pessimistic, but maybe you've had only bad experiences on the trail, I don't know. Then you go and throw in some crap statement like that at the end! I'm 25 years old and didn't I just mention to you in a post that I also plan on becoming a teacher so I can hike every summer (it won't be thru obviously, it would be -gasp!- sectioning).

As far as buying beer goes I guarantee I bought more than twice as much beer as I drank on this trip. Look at my age!! STEREOTYPERS. I know you're going to say "*most* young thrus are bad" next... it still disheartens me to hear people distrusting some people before they even meet them. "Agism," it's called. The wonderful thing about the trail is that I feel comfortable trusting everyone. I do. Out here I lock my car if it's leaving my sight for 20 seconds.

What is going on, putting all these labels on everything?? Do "section hikers" only hike each section once until they've pieced together the whole thing and then never hike again?? Why can't a "thru-hiker" hike pieces of it again after he or she has done it all once?

Why is everyone "hating on" everyone else! FD, can you come in and force everyone to get along and smile in only that way you can?

One of the things I enjoyed about thru-hiking was being around people of all ages, from 16 to 86. The younger people, with the exception of a few bad apples, were pretty cool.

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 20:22
::sigh::

Okay. You guys know things I couldn't possibly know... I can only share what I do know. Sorry to hear that things are so bad. Maybe after I get my life going I'll move out to a trail town to be a part of the experience, and then I'll be going "kids these days..." and "in my day" all the time. Oh well.

I don't think the kindness should stop. I think the pandering and catering should though. Picking up a hiker out of the pouring rain, getting your car all soaked, and taking them to your house is pretty kind. Showing up at a road-crossing and serving burgers to everyone who walks by breeds feelings of royalty. I think it's important we distinquish between the two when thinking about what to stop and what is still genuine *traditional* real trail magic.

- Sudoku

Jack Tarlin
12-17-2007, 20:22
The "younger people" out there are pretty cool, Tater?

Well, that's good to here.

At my age, it's gettin' to the point that they're ALL younger people. :D

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 20:24
One of the things I enjoyed about thru-hiking was being around people of all ages, from 16 to 86. The younger people, with the exception of a few bad apples, were pretty cool.

Come to think of it, I didn't even hike with people my age very much - most were 30-35, which really surprised me. I loved how everyone treated everyone else as equals... everyone having the same "chance" of making it the whole way. (I'm trying to get back on the thread! :rolleyes: haha)

- Sudoku

Jack Tarlin
12-17-2007, 20:28
Feeding people at road crossings "breeds feelings of royalty?"

Um, I've taken care of zillions of folks at road crossings and I've tried to treat 'em all the same.

One doesn't "breed royalty" unless you start pandering to certain folks and ignoring others. And one doesn't become royalty if one refuses to adopt the attitude that you're somehow special or privileged.

In the end, it's a matter of how you treat people, and how one expects to be treated by others. If one doesn't spoil people, then they don't end up feeling "entitled" for the rest of their trip. And if one doesn't get cop an attiitude about who they are and what they're doing, (i.e. if you don't adopt an attitude that you're entitled to all sorts of cool stuff merely because you're thru-hiking) well, these people also don't end up expecting "royal treatment."

But feeding people doesn't necessarily breed feelings of royalty.

Geez, sometimes a cheeseburger is just a cheesburger, it's possible to read more importance into this than is merited.

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 20:34
Feeding people at road crossings "breeds feelings of royalty?"

Um, I've taken care of zillions of folks at road crossings and I've tried to treat 'em all the same.

No, what I mean is that when you see water jugs left at road crossings enough, you almost get to the point of *expecting* to finding them! My hiking buddy said to me once "what, no water at this road crossing!?" and then said "wow... I feel guilty for thinking that - why am I expecting people provide me with water??"

That's the kind of "royalty" or - "entitlement" might've been the word I should've stuck with.

Skidsteer
12-17-2007, 20:37
No, what I mean is that when you see water jugs left at road crossings enough, you almost get to the point of *expecting* to finding them! My hiking buddy said to me once "what, no water at this road crossing!?" and then said "wow... I feel guilty for thinking that - why am I expecting people provide me with water??"

That's the kind of "royalty" or - "entitlement" might've been the word I should've stuck with.

You're kinda making the oppositions's point here ya know.

Appalachian Tater
12-17-2007, 20:39
The "younger people" out there are pretty cool, Tater?

Well, that's good to hear.

At my age, it's gettin' to the point that they're ALL younger people. :D

Well, Jack, I certainly didn't mean that the older people weren't, but the younger people were getting flack.

You're pretty brave to have opened your home to anyone who drops by. In this day, that is rare. I am not surprised that you have had some problems.

Sudoku
12-17-2007, 20:41
You're kinda making the oppositions's point here ya know.

This isn't politics, it's hiking

- Sudoku

Skidsteer
12-17-2007, 20:46
Great. Keep hiking. Do some shuttles. See how you feel 2-3 years from now.

rafe
12-17-2007, 20:56
Sorry to hear that things are so bad.

I suspect they're not. ;) Interesting that the loudest bellyaching about thru-hiker behavior comes from a pair of habitual serial thru-hikers.

But I should refrain from comment. I've mostly been avoiding the "thru-hiking" scene for my own selfish reasons -- I prefer a less crowded trail scene. So it's been a few years since I've observed thru-hiker group behavior.

I suspect some of it is the old "kids these days... " complaint that you always hear from old pharts.

Lone Wolf
12-17-2007, 21:00
I suspect they're not. ;) Interesting that the loudest bellyaching about thru-hiker behavior comes from a pair of habitual serial thru-hikers.


cuz we're out here year after year and witness the s**t and we habitually do the right thing. pay our way. do a little extra. lead by example.

Almost There
12-17-2007, 21:03
I was just giving my observations of those I have hiked around during the summer months. I'm not saying all younger hikers are this way, but the ones that I have been around....Sudoku, perhaps your parents raised you right, or you're just a good guy. And yes there are those that thru that will come back again and again, but I am just stating the nature of things, there are many that see the trail as a challenge to be accomplished and once done it is time to move onto other challenges. Younger people tend to be more this way than older people, it's the nature of life. Restlessness and all that. As for what I said, I also mentioned both were dedicated, just in different ways.

My point is also that I have spent quite a bit of time around the trail from Springer up to Damascus and it seems that I see some of the older hikers again and again, whereas, most of the younger ones I meet'em and never see'em again. This statement includes both sectioners and thrus.

Now my experiences most definitely have not been miserable, merely observations. I had a great time in 2006 and 2007. I have shared libations and given trail names, enjoyed campfires and town fare, but the good and bad go hand in hand. As a teacher I see the entitlement growing in the younger generation, it drives me crazy, and yes students are behaving differently than they were 10 years ago. So a 20 year old two years out of high school was a student of mine 2 years ago. They grew up being told they were special and would do great things. They didn't get disciplined as much as they should have. Yes it is a generalization, and you may not fit into it, not everyone does, and from how you have represented yourself, I wouldn't mind meeting you on the trail or shuttling you at all, so relax, no one is attacking you.

Some of the older guys have been around the trail year after year since the mid eighties and some much longer than that, they have seen much change, perhaps some for the better, and some not so much for the better.

Appalachian Tater
12-17-2007, 21:34
It is funny how as each generation moves into middle age and beyond, the younger generations annoy them. It's been happening at least since early Greek civilization. Probably longer, but they didn't bother to make cave paintings about it.

Skidsteer
12-17-2007, 21:46
25 year olds annoyed me more when I was 25 than they do now.

I guess it's all about expectations.

Montego
12-17-2007, 21:50
I probably annoy them more than they annoy me. Heck, after so many years in Army Field Artillery, can't hear them anyway :D

Blissful
12-17-2007, 21:56
::sigh::

I don't think the kindness should stop. I think the pandering and catering should though. Picking up a hiker out of the pouring rain, getting your car all soaked, and taking them to your house is pretty kind. Showing up at a road-crossing and serving burgers to everyone who walks by breeds feelings of royalty. I think it's important we distinquish between the two when thinking about what to stop and what is still genuine *traditional* real trail magic.

- Sudoku

I am so thankful to the ones who left sodas, goodies, and who cooked us hikers some wonderful stuff (including my own hubby, thank you). Let people do what they want out of the goodness of their hearts and not make a federal case out of what constitutes trail magic. man oh man, it's ridiculous. It's been beaten to death in other past threads anyway. BTW - The ice in a chest left in VT literally saved my very bruised hand so I could use my poles (another injury I had).

If you don't want the food, sodas, etc, walk on by.

Tin Man
12-17-2007, 21:58
After doing a quick 7 mile day-hike on the AT, I gave a twenty-something thru-hiker a ride into Kent. I was happy to do it and never considered asking for money, nor did he volunteer any. No issues. However, after dropping him off at the outfitters, he asked if I could wait a minute. I said sure and he went in to pick up a bounce box and then asked me to drive him around town to see if he could spot some of his friends. I was a little startled by his assumption that I had nowhere to go and nothing better to do, but I obliged. After driving up and down the main drag, he asked if I could stop at the outfitters to drop his pack and bounce box, then drive him to the grocery store. At this point, I had become a little annoyed and thought this thru-hiker must think he is really something special. After reading this thread, I have come to realize that he was not so unique - unfortunately.

Lone Wolf
12-17-2007, 22:00
BTW - The ice in a chest left in VT literally saved my very bruised hand so I could use my poles (another injury I had).

If you don't want the food, sodas, etc, walk on by.

i did this year cuz it said "for thru-hikers only"

Frolicking Dinosaurs
12-17-2007, 22:07
At my age, it's gettin' to the point that they're ALL younger people. :D::: Dino peeks over trifocals and calls Jack a 'young whipper-snapper' :D :::

rafe
12-17-2007, 22:09
After doing a quick 7 mile day-hike on the AT, I gave a twenty-something thru-hiker a ride into Kent. ... <snip>

A simple question for you, Tin Man. Did you, at any point during this little adventure, communicate your... ahem... annoyance to the hiker in question? I mean, you could have simply said, "Hey, I've got things to do. See ya."

It seems a bit odd to indulge the fellow and then complain about it later. Just a thought...

Tin Man
12-17-2007, 22:13
A simple question for you, Tin Man. Did you, at any point during this little adventure, communicate your... ahem... annoyance to the hiker in question? I mean, you could have simply said, "Hey, I've got things to do. See ya."

It seems a bit odd to indulge the fellow and then complain about it later. Just a thought...

I wasn't all that annoyed. And it was the first time I offered assistance to a thru-hiker and was interested in hearing how the town stop was conducted. I was curious to where it would lead. I just thought he was very presumptuous though.

ARambler
12-17-2007, 22:35
Assuming this thread is still on subject, :rolleyes: ... Thru hikers, that want to increase there chances of success, should treat all people as resources and exploit them as much as possible.:mad: I wonder how much this helps or hurts ones hike?

It is a good thing that good people are, good people. Although many services are threatened, I have not seen a serious decline of helpful people over the last few years. Thank to all those on WB that are still supporting hikers.
Rambler

Tin Man
12-17-2007, 22:58
Assuming this thread is still on subject, :rolleyes: ... Thru hikers, that want to increase there chances of success, should treat all people as resources and exploit them as much as possible.:mad: I wonder how much this helps or hurts ones hike?

It is a good thing that good people are, good people. Although many services are threatened, I have not seen a serious decline of helpful people over the last few years. Thank to all those on WB that are still supporting hikers.
Rambler

It just seems to me that some thru-hikers get a little wrapped up in their little adventure and they think that makes them something special - they are not. While these special thru-hikers are probably just as likely to finish as a thru-hiker without the attitude, I wonder if they grow as much from the experience.

rafe
12-17-2007, 23:22
I wasn't all that annoyed. And it was the first time I offered assistance to a thru-hiker and was interested in hearing how the town stop was conducted. I was curious to where it would lead. I just thought he was very presumptuous though.

Well, if you showed no annoyance at the time, it's hard to blame the kid for "taking advantage."

This summer at Front Royal, after about 30 seconds with my thumb out, a young kid (20-something, if that) picked me up at the trailhead, took me to the post office, waited for me there (I was pretty quick) and then took me back a ways to the Quality Inn. I thanked him profusely. I wished I knew of a way to thank him "better" -- short of offering to buy him a drink (was he even old enough???) or stuffing cash in his hand (how much? $5? $10? $20? Would that be rude or gauche??) As it was, I left him with a handshake and profuse thanks. When I'm showered with kindness like that, I'm occasionally at a loss on exactly how to say, "thanks." But I tried to let the kid know how much I appreciated his help.

Bearpaw
12-17-2007, 23:39
I probably annoy them more than they annoy me. Heck, after so many years in Army Field Artillery, can't hear them anyway :D

WHAT!!?? :o

Tin Man
12-17-2007, 23:42
Well, if you showed no annoyance at the time, it's hard to blame the kid for "taking advantage."

This summer at Front Royal, after about 30 seconds with my thumb out, a young kid (20-something, if that) picked me up at the trailhead, took me to the post office, waited for me there (I was pretty quick) and then took me back a ways to the Quality Inn. I thanked him profusely. I wished I knew of a way to thank him "better" -- short of offering to buy him a drink (was he even old enough???) or stuffing cash in his hand (how much? $5? $10? $20? Would that be rude or gauche??) As it was, I left him with a handshake and profuse thanks. When I'm showered with kindness like that, I'm occasionally at a loss on exactly how to say, "thanks." But I tried to let the kid know how much I appreciated his help.

Nothing wrong with accepting a ride and being thankful for it. The "kid" had the yogi thing down to a tee and then some, like he expected the chauffeur treatment vs. a simple ride. He was not as polite and gracious as you obviously were. That's all, no biggie.

Bearpaw
12-17-2007, 23:52
I was a thru-hiker in 1999. The one thing that really struck me as odd were my fellow thru's that would say "Man, I hope there's some trail magic up at the road today." I was always a little stunned. I never once thought about it, and what made trail magic "magic" was the sheer unexpected joy of somebody's goodwill.

I did have one frustrating moment where my expectations were probably what got the better of me. I stood for 3 hours on July 4, 2006 trying to hitch into Creede, Colorado from the Colorado Trail (a 30-mile hitch). I was kind of stunned that nobody would stop. I would gladly have paid for a ride. Eventually another hiker sectioning the CDT wandered in and gave me a ride, and I pretty much begged him to take something for his efforts. Eventually he let me buy him a large coffee in town. I wonder if, by expecting someone to offer me a 30-mile ride, I was falling prey to the same entitled attitude some folks on the AT have gotten used to.

The Old Fhart
12-18-2007, 00:02
Blissful-"... Let people do what they want out of the goodness of their hearts and not make a federal case out of what constitutes trail magic. man oh man, it's ridiculous. It's been beaten to death in other past threads anyway..."Blissful, When you stopped at our trail magic near Long Falls Dam road you probably noticed that all hikers, thru, section, and day hikers (and probably some non-hikers as well) were equally welcome. That's the way we play it.

Mags
12-18-2007, 00:15
I stood for 3 hours on July 4, 2006 trying to hitch into Creede, Colorado from the Colorado Trail (a 30-mile hitch). I was kind of stunned that nobody would stop.

I think a certain short doc about the Colorado Trail warned about that hitch. :D

( I actually added not only your info about the campground at Molas Pass, but also a link to your journal entry concering the hitch into Creede!)

Bearpaw
12-18-2007, 00:22
I think a certain short doc about the Colorado Trail warned about that hitch. :D

( I actually added not only your info about the campground at Molas Pass, but also a link to your journal entry concering the hitch into Creede!)

I remember the statement that it was a tough hitch. I even asked about it on TrailForums. The prevailing wisdom was that it was a tough hitch because there was very little traffic. I thought "there will HAVE to be traffic on the 4th of July". And there was. An estimated 300-400 vehicles passed me. Most with Texas plates. And none of them stopped...... :( at least not in the direction of Creede.

If I 'd headed to Lake City, I'd have gotten a ride in about 40 minutes, but of course I had a MAILDROP in Creede! :eek:

rafe
12-18-2007, 00:32
I am so thankful to the ones who left sodas, goodies, and who cooked us hikers some wonderful stuff (including my own hubby, thank you). Let people do what they want out of the goodness of their hearts and not make a federal case out of what constitutes trail magic. man oh man, it's ridiculous. It's been beaten to death in other past threads anyway.

I've never really been to a "hiker feed," but I'll ditto the heart-felt appreciation for cold sodas left in streams and coolers on a hot summer day. Man, oh, man. That's some wonderful stuff. (No such luck this summer, but a couple of times in years past.) Best magic I got this summer were a couple of really quick hitches in and out of town. :D Oh, and my shuttler at Rocky Gap arriving exactly on time. (Thank you, Maurice. :banana)

Spirit Walker
12-18-2007, 00:41
Bearpaw - I think it took us 10 minutes to get a ride to Creede;-) We paid for a ride out with an employee at the outdoor store, which worked well too. Creede is an easier town for thruhikers, I think, because it is so much more compact - plus it has an outdoor store.

Bearpaw
12-18-2007, 00:47
Bearpaw - I think it took us 10 minutes to get a ride to Creede;-) We paid for a ride out with an employee at the outdoor store, which worked well too. Creede is an easier town for thruhikers, I think, because it is so much more compact - plus it has an outdoor store.

Yeah, I got the same ride back to the CT from an employee at the outfitter. I got REALLY lucky on my lodging too, catching a cancellation at the Snowshoe Lodge. The fireworks were fantastic, and the whole town experience was one of my best on the trail.

But that hitch was a beast..... Sounds like you got wonderfully lucky. :D

turtle fast
12-18-2007, 01:18
I unfortunately see what eveertone is talking about. The younger generation that feels as if they are entitled to things. I work for a large beverage company (not Pepsi, or Coke but #3). As a manager for them I hire a lot of our younger generation. These people feel as if they deserve to be the CEO, or a VP right away...want 6 weeks of vacation, and a salary of the CEO...not even mentioning not having to work hard, and no more than 40 hours a week. THEY TEND TO WHINE ALOT.
Interestingly, I find these kids to be from the middle and upper middle classes. Maybe mommy and daddy pampered them too much..but I see this stuff way too much from them.
Interestingly, where I don't find this sence of entitlement is from kids from more rural areas, farm kids, and kids who have their acts togeather from hard working familys who didn't have much. They tend to not whine either

turtle fast
12-18-2007, 01:25
Lone Wolf...how do the older thru hikers treat you? Are the 30 somethings and retired hikers generally more kind?

rafe
12-18-2007, 01:36
TurtleFast: what a load of hoo-hah. :rolleyes:

I work in high tech in the Boston 'burbs. Most of my colleagues are half my age, or less. They work plenty hard. Most of us make decent bucks but few of us expect to be wealthy any time soon. Our major gripe is health care coverage, which used to be pretty good but has been downgraded for each of the last two years. And that's a legitimate complaint.

The idea that virtue is a "rural" thing is a load of bull.

Sudoku
12-18-2007, 01:41
Thanks for giving me the heads-up everybody. Now, when I'm older, I'll think twice when I complain about "kids these days" or go on about "when I was younger". Maybe I'll remember that *everyone* has those thoughts about the younger generations, and that I'm not turning any new stones by coming up with them. Apparently the low-mid thirties is young enough to "kids-these-days" ... so 7-8 years from now I'll remember to bite my tongue, lest I sound obnoxious!

Night all :D

- Sudoku

Nokia
12-18-2007, 02:51
So If I've tried 4 times, only done about 1800 miles in one go (and as few as 30 one time), what does that make my chances???? :eek: :eek: :eek:

River Runner
12-18-2007, 03:16
So If I've tried 4 times, only done about 1800 miles in one go (and as few as 30 one time), what does that make my chances???? :eek: :eek: :eek:

:confused: 0% so far. ;)

emerald
12-18-2007, 07:35
Certainly better than your random uinformed person. I would think you've learned more than just a few things for your efforts.

Colter
12-18-2007, 08:30
if it ceases being fun there's no sense in continuing

It ceases being fun for everyone at certain times on a thru. It's only those that continue that complete their hike. Lots of people who are enjoying themselves overall, and who would make it, quit on bad days.

CoyoteWhips
12-18-2007, 08:53
I was a thru-hiker in 1999. The one thing that really struck me as odd were my fellow thru's that would say "Man, I hope there's some trail magic up at the road today." I was always a little stunned. I never once thought about it, and what made trail magic "magic" was the sheer unexpected joy of somebody's goodwill.

Some years ago I was wandering through the touristy Woodstock, New York, and I stopped in the little visitor center. There I overheard a couple of young pilgrims asking about a taxi service. They were staying at the local monastery and it's a really long walk back up the mountain. So, I gave them a ride and declined the obligatory offer of payment. I figured I was just contributing to the pilgrim experience -- something will always turn up when you need it.

I am self-employed. My paycheck comes when somebody buys something. So, I don't know when I'm going to get paid or how much I'll make in a week. But, when I go in the shop and start working, I have faith that somebody will buy something sometime. So far, I've made it through every month with groceries and mortgage payments -- sometimes only by unplanned providence.

Trail magic is magic. You don't know when or where you'll find it. But expecting to find it isn't entitlement. It's faith.

I wonder if that's one of the primary assets of people who finish their thru? It's knowing that with every mile, whatever hardship, things will work out. Just keep walking with faith.

4eyedbuzzard
12-18-2007, 09:01
It's knowing that with every mile, whatever hardship, things will work out. Just keep walking with faith.

Probably more important than anything else. It's why I quit. Wasn't having fun, and didn't think that was going to change.

Appalachian Tater
12-18-2007, 09:02
Thanks for giving me the heads-up everybody. Now, when I'm older, I'll think twice when I complain about "kids these days" or go on about "when I was younger". Maybe I'll remember that *everyone* has those thoughts about the younger generations, and that I'm not turning any new stones by coming up with them. Apparently the low-mid thirties is young enough to "kids-these-days" ... so 7-8 years from now I'll remember to bite my tongue, lest I sound obnoxious!

Night all :D

- Sudoku

I find that the kids in their early 30s tend to whine too much about kids in their early 20s whining. Try to wait till you have a little gray hair before you start whining about those younger then you are. At that point, you no longer exist to those under 25 and the ones under 35 can see you but can't hear you. You will annoy no one that doesn't deserve to be annoyed.

dessertrat
12-18-2007, 09:35
I think a certain short doc about the Colorado Trail warned about that hitch. :D

( I actually added not only your info about the campground at Molas Pass, but also a link to your journal entry concering the hitch into Creede!)

Generally, I have noticed, the more affluent the area, the tougher the hitch. Is that the case there?

rafe
12-18-2007, 09:45
Generally, I have noticed, the more affluent the area, the tougher the hitch. Is that the case there?

Folks with nice cars don't want their upholstery messed up. :D OTOH, if your vehicle is a rusty *****tbox, a thru-hiker isn't going to do much damage.

Have you noticed that you're least likely to get a ride when you need it most (like, when it's raining?)

Bearpaw
12-18-2007, 09:50
Generally, I have noticed, the more affluent the area, the tougher the hitch. Is that the case there?

At least 80% of the vehicles which passed me by were SUV's with Texas plates. I heard from folks in Creede that the area was mostly vacation homes for the Texas elite who wanted a Summer getaway from Texas heat. So maybe that does come into play somewhat.

However, as for getting away from the Summer heat, I can really relate to that! That's part of why I was out there also.

superman
12-18-2007, 09:51
... and young people are funny looking. They have no gray hair or wrinkles. They don't have anything that sags. They have spring in their step,,,with or with out carrying a pack. In spite of that, I enjoyed meeting a bunch of those kind of people in 2000.

Critterman
12-18-2007, 10:08
of the 20% that do make it most of them didn't have a wonderful time. a lot of them are down right miserable

Sounds like real life. There are miserable parts to childhood, education, marriage, parenthood, and a career too.

CoyoteWhips
12-18-2007, 10:24
Sounds like real life. There are miserable parts to childhood, education, marriage, parenthood, and a career too.

Yeah, but most of that stuff isn't optional. I think there's a significant portion of people who quit the trail who should quit the trail. They've learned what they needed to know, they finished the journey in their own way. There's no value to them to continue to the end.

I think the real goal of a thru should be hike until you're done.

dessertrat
12-18-2007, 10:43
Yeah, but most of that stuff isn't optional. I think there's a significant portion of people who quit the trail who should quit the trail. They've learned what they needed to know, they finished the journey in their own way. There's no value to them to continue to the end.

I think the real goal of a thru should be hike until you're done.

I can't see deciding that you are done, though, unless you have been unhappy with it for a long time. All of us have had that moment where we cuss and shout, and say we're going to quit something, but are fine half an hour later. How long should a thru-hiker be unhappy before quitting? A day? A week? A month? I guess only that person knows for sure, but I would hate to see someone quit and then be sorry a week later that they quit.

Critterman
12-18-2007, 11:04
i do have to say that what jack and i describe primarily takes place with 20something year old males. there are plenty of thru-hikers that don't fit that mold and are responsible and do the right thing

I have often wondered how a young person just out of college can afford to take off 6 months and go hiking. They have to getting the money from Mom and Dad. I think you have a self selecting population of people who have no responsibilities and are used to getting a free ride. Not hard to see how they could get a warped sense entitlement.

Lone Wolf
12-18-2007, 11:06
I have often wondered how a young person just out of college can afford to take off 6 months and go hiking. They have to getting the money from Mom and Dad. I think you have a self selecting population of people who have no responsibilities and are used to getting a free ride. Not hard to see how they could get a warped sense entitlement.

trustafarians (skirt-wearin' white kids with dreadlocks and lotsa $$ who think they're extremely hip)

Critterman
12-18-2007, 11:10
trustafarians (skirt-wearin' white kids with dreadlocks and lotsa $$ who think they're extremely hip)

And move back in the folks after getting a degree in uselessbull***ology and can't get a job.

Johnny Thunder
12-18-2007, 11:20
Since I don't have a mortgage, car payment, day care payment, kid in college, kid on the soccer team, kid, etc...4 large was pretty easy to scrounge.

Actually, I ended up with a lot more than I expected. If they'd only put me in charge of the national debt...

rafe
12-18-2007, 11:35
I have often wondered how a young person just out of college can afford to take off 6 months and go hiking. They have to getting the money from Mom and Dad. I think you have a self selecting population of people who have no responsibilities and are used to getting a free ride. Not hard to see how they could get a warped sense entitlement.

Jeez, what's with this endless bashing of young kids? I don't get it.

When I was about 20 I was pissed off with college and needed a break from it all. I had a retail job (all thru college) that paid $3.50 an hour. I managed to save up about $1500 over the course of a half-year or so, and a good friend of mine did the same. With that cash, he and I spent over half a year tromping through Europe in a tiny Fiat. That cash covered the air fare as well, there and back. We slept on the beach, or stayed in sleazy $1 a night hostels, ate sausage and oranges. We had a grand old time.

The money didn't come from mom and dad. Mom and dad would have of course preferred that I stay in college. FWIW, when that trip was over, I went back to school and (about 3 years later) got my degree in electrical engineering (BSEE.)

Seventeen years later I quit my job and tried to thru-hike. :D

dessertrat
12-18-2007, 11:44
Jeez, what's with this endless bashing of young kids? I don't get it.

When I was about 20 I was pissed off with college and needed a break from it all. I had a retail job (all thru college) that paid $3.50 an hour. I managed to save up about $1500 over the course of a half-year or so, and a good friend of mine did the same. With that cash, he and I spent over half a year tromping through Europe in a tiny Fiat. That cash covered the air fare as well, there and back. We slept on the beach, or stayed in sleazy $1 a night hostels, ate sausage and oranges. We had a grand old time.

The money didn't come from mom and dad. Mom and dad would have of course preferred that I stay in college. FWIW, when that trip was over, I went back to school and (about 3 years later) got my degree in electrical engineering (BSEE.)

Seventeen years later I quit my job and tried to thru-hike. :D

Hmm. . . first bumming around Europe, and then an aborted thru-hike? Are you sure you're not Bill Bryson?

rafe
12-18-2007, 11:54
Hmm. . . first bumming around Europe, and then an aborted thru-hike? Are you sure you're not Bill Bryson?

That's a keen observation, dessertrat. One of the reasons I really dig Bryson -- he and I seem to have had very similar experiences in life, and we're about the same age. But anyway, back when I was 20, bumming thru Europe was not an uncommon thing for college kids to do. I met my present wife in the fall of 1990. It turns out she'd done the same thing, only a year or two earlier than me (she's a few years older than me.) There's a German word (wanderlust) to describe this.

Mags
12-18-2007, 13:10
Generally, I have noticed, the more affluent the area, the tougher the hitch. Is that the case there?

The area itself is not affluent, but there are many affluent Texans who vacation there. No offense to people from Texas, but it is true in that area. (To the point where the stores sell Texas keychains, hats, coffee mugs, etc!)

dessertrat
12-18-2007, 13:12
That's a keen observation, dessertrat. One of the reasons I really dig Bryson -- he and I seem to have had very similar experiences in life, and we're about the same age. But anyway, back when I was 20, bumming thru Europe was not an uncommon thing for college kids to do. I met my present wife in the fall of 1990. It turns out she'd done the same thing, only a year or two earlier than me (she's a few years older than me.) There's a German word (wanderlust) to describe this.

I didn't even know wanderlust was a German word! I thought it was an English word!:o

Critterman
12-18-2007, 13:12
Jeez, what's with this endless bashing of young kids? I don't get it.

I not bashing kids. I am bashing their parents for enabling the kids behaviour.

Mags
12-18-2007, 13:14
I have often wondered how a young person just out of college can afford to take off 6 months and go hiking. They have to getting the money from Mom and Dad. I


I worked my butt off, saved money and then took off.

I lived at home while going to college (as did most of my cousins who went to college and almost all of my peer group who went to college as well), so that helped with expenses.

None of my cousins, brothers or my friends (or myself) that I grew up with had their parents pay for school.

Watch out for generalizations. :sun

Mags
12-18-2007, 13:17
Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers. --Socrates


The older generation kvetching about the younger generation has been going on for at least 2500 yrs.

I am sure Ugurbugu said the previous generation of Cro-Magnons made crappy fire and are lazy. :)

SGT Rock
12-18-2007, 13:22
The young men and women I worked with in Iraq were very stoic and gave me hope in the future generations. What got me is the people sitting in the FOBs safe and sound bitching about the "attitudes" of the youngsters that were out doing the dangerous stuff.

Just my observation about the younger generation.

warren doyle
12-18-2007, 15:05
I have often wondered how a young person just out of college can afford to take off 6 months and go hiking. They have to getting the money from Mom and Dad. I think you have a self selecting population of people who have no responsibilities and are used to getting a free ride. Not hard to see how they could get a warped sense entitlement.

I first did my thru-hike in 1973 when I was a full-time PhD student (age 23)at the University of Connecticut. Choosing to thru-hike it in 66.3 days enabled me not to miss any school or my job responsibilties, as a resident assistant and a graduate assistant, that I had before and after this particular hike.

I am a first-generation college student from a working class background.
I chose to go to a nearby state college, rather than a more 'prestigious' college, for my undergraduate education so I could commute (we had no community colleges then) in an old car. (Our present cars, that we have chosen, are are 1989 rusted Honda Civic which I bought from a Sunni Muslim in Carlisle, PA for $350 three years ago and a 1991 Ford Escort that I bought for $300 at a car auction more than a year ago.)

As a undergraduate student, I chose to be hard-working and conscientious enough to get scholarships based on merit and need. I did not want to be a financial burden on my parents.

As a graduate student, I chose to be industrious enough to receive fellowships/assistantships/grants/free housing during my three years of full-time, on-campus graduate education (MA, PhD) at a state university, which was another choice, rather than attending the more 'prestigious' Columbia University because I didn't want to take out a loan for my graduate education.

I then chose jobs that enabled me to do the 1975, 1977 and 1980 Intercollegiate AT Circle Expeditions without having to compromise/forego my job responsibilities or the economic security those jobs gave me.

Because of the choices I made, I was able to thru-hike the AT four times by the age of 30 (in addition to five end-to-ends on the LT; a John Muir Trail traverse; and, a Wonderland Trail completion).

The apparent theme throughout the above narrative is not one of fate, but one of choice.

post#80 rickb: Thanks. I know I am on to something.

post#85 Spirit Walker: Insightful post (as always) and good question.

post#104 Blissful: Right on!

emerald
12-18-2007, 15:40
Interesting you should use the word fate Warren. I was thinking about fatalism while at work this morning as I pondered the direction of this thread. I'm about to return there.

I was pondering how many people seem to think they have little control over their hikes. If the person hiking isn't responsible for the outcome of his or her hike, who is?

I've worked for more than 20 years without a lost-time injury while others around me have sufferred them and have driven for more than 30 without a reportable incident, but then I don't believe in accidents either.

Sudoku
12-18-2007, 15:42
And move back in the folks after getting a degree in uselessbull***ology and can't get a job.

Hey there Fairfax, VA -- not everyone wants to be lawyer, doctor, or accountaint! (for those who don't know, Fairfax is $$$ - probably doesn't have many people who got a useless bull****ology degree)

Heaven forbit you get a degree in something you like! I don't believe you're preaching to the choir here... I think you won't find many sympathetic people because most people here do what they want, not what will make them $$$.

Oh, and no I don't feel sorry for stereotyping you Critter, because you've been pretty unfair to a lot of groups in your last few posts. Thanks for the pidgeon-hole... but it's a little snug :(

- Sudoku

Sudoku
12-18-2007, 15:47
The apparent theme throughout the above narrative is not one of fate, but one of choice.

[quote=Shades of Gray;476775]
I was pondering how many people seem to think they have little control over their hikes. If the person hiking isn't responsible for the outcome of his or her hike, who is?

These are wonderful points. One of the most intoxicating aspects of the trail for me was how I always got to decide what I wanted to do. One of the things that kept me going every day was knowing that I wanted to keep hiking, I was making the decision.

Everyone who treated the hike like their job had many bad days because they made it seem like they had no choice. It is fundamentally important to your success as a hiker that you look at it a certain way too, I think.

- Sudoku

dessertrat
12-18-2007, 15:58
Interesting you should use the word fate Warren. I was thinking about fatalism while at work this morning as I pondered the direction of this thread. I'm about to return there.

I was pondering how many people seem to think they have little control over their hikes. If the person hiking isn't responsible for the outcome of his or her hike, who is?

I've worked for more than 20 years without a lost-time injury while others around me have sufferred them and have driven for more than 30 without a reportable incident, but then I don't believe in accidents either.

Yup. Interesting things to think about. I don't think people mean they can't control their hike (I hope they don't mean that). They may not be able to control the rain, or the fact that a spring is dry, or the fact that it is cold or hot, and have to adapt to that. That is just a fact of life, but most of us don't have to deal with those things every day in the modern world. If we get cold, we turn on the heat, or if we are thirsty, we go to a faucet or open a bottle.

On the subject of accidents, I had a young man in his twenties tell me that he had been in four motor vehicle accidents since getting a driver's license, but none of them were his fault. My response: "BS. You may not have been at fault legally, but NOBODY has four accidents in ten years time who drives like a responsible adult. You're doing something wrong, even if it isn't ticketable." Either that, or he was just the unluckiest person in the world. He was not, let us say, happy to hear his lawyer give him that sort of lecture.

warren doyle
12-18-2007, 15:59
I lived in Fairfax County for over eleven years (June 1985-September 1996), but I chose to hitch from Dulles Airport (my flight was paid by my soon-to-be employer) to sign my contract at George Mason University. I chose the position because my family (which I also chose to have) would be living rent-free in a 100+ y.o. farmhouse situated in a 470-acre regional park that I directed/managed/developed in Clifton. While there, I chose an old beat-up Toyota station wagon for my official state-use only vehicle (prompting several people to ask me if I was a narc). I told them it was choices like these that enabled us to not raise our public-use fees (Hemlock Overlook; Center for Outdoor Education)for the eleven years I was there.
My choices during this 11-year period allowed me to do the 1990 and 1995 Appalachian Trail Circle Expeditions and section hike the entire trail twice, neither risking my economic security nor compromising my job responsibilties.

emerald
12-18-2007, 16:02
You know, if instead of rapid-fire posting, you'd read the thread, you might learn more and contribute more.

Type warrendoyle.com and read his 1-page book. You'll find Warren says hiking the A.T. is an education and a job. I view it similarly. If everyone lived life just for the fun of it, much important work would never get done.

Sudoku
12-18-2007, 16:13
You know, if instead of rapid-fire posting, you'd read the thread, you might learn more and contribute more.

Type warrendoyle.com and read his 1-page book. You'll find Warren says hiking the A.T. is an education and a job. I view it similarly. If everyone lived life just for the fun of it, much important work would never get done.

Dude! Instead of rapid-fire posting, you should read that I was quoting Critterman and criticizing his scathing remarks. I don't know Warren Doyle but from reading his posts so far I have nothing but respect for the man! Can you not see that just one post ago I quoted Warren Doyle and you and then wrote "Wonderful points here!"

I said "I don't mean to stereotype" and I was only attacking Critterman for being such a prick about what degrees are okay and what aren't. Easy, buddy. I don't know where Warren Doyle has lived his whole life, and I can bet more than a handful of wonderful people have lived in Fairfax. Easy.

respectfully yours (but unrespectfully people with bigotous attitudes like Critterman),
- Sudoku

Lone Wolf
12-18-2007, 16:15
chill kids. it's XMAS!:banana

Grampie
12-18-2007, 16:18
house them, ferry them around, or pay their bills.

I've seen it. And it's getting tired.

As a rule, thru-hikers don't need......and in many cases, don't deserve charity.

You have six months to go hiking? Great!!

Do it on your own dime, snooks.

Jack..You are sooo right. It's too bad that these "snooks" are giving thru-hiking a bad rap.
Since I thrued in 2001 I have been a caretaker at Upper Goose Pond each year. We offer one of the best deals on the trail and there are still a lot who won't even give a dollar as a donation. I have even had a few ask me for money so that they can continue.
On the other hand some folks stay the night and give a $40 donation. I guess it takes all kinds to make the trail what it is.

Sudoku
12-18-2007, 16:24
Since I thrued in 2001 I have been a caretaker at Upper Goose Pond each year. We offer one of the best deals on the trail and there are still a lot who won't even give a dollar as a donation.

Grampie, I don't think it wasn't you I saw this year, but I believe the blueberry pancakes have been going for a while? either way, Thank You!! I loved Upper Goose Pond, it is a wonderful place!

- Sudoku

Critterman
12-18-2007, 16:38
Hey there Fairfax, VA -- not everyone wants to be lawyer, doctor, or accountaint! (for those who don't know, Fairfax is $$$ - probably doesn't have many people who got a useless bull****ology degree)

This area probably has more kids getting useless degrees and moving home with their parents than alot of places. $$$ is the reason. Many kids here have never had a job during the summer etc. and their parents enable them by providing a great lifestyle without requiring an effort in return. I think that is poor parenting. That was my point.
I had a business and employed a number of kids who worked while going to junior college or worked during their summer breaks from 4 year schools. They are great kids. They didn't get a free ride and they were working toward a goal. They are the kind of young people Sgt. Rock talks about. Luckily, I believe they are in the majority.
My comments were about why some 20 somethings felt entitled as thru hikers and not to condenm all kids as bums. If you feel that the shoe fits then wear it.

Sudoku
12-18-2007, 16:47
You can hold on to your shoe there buddy, you don't know what size I wear.

Your comments were about people getting bull degrees. A lot of what you say is halfway right, thinking there are "right" degrees and "wrong" degrees is straight bigotry. You could be far and away wiser than I am, but I know one thing - and that's that nobody knows everything. Bringing home the Benjamins is not directly correlated with how valid a degree is. Next time you're reading one of the plaques about the civil war on the trail in Maryland think about what useless, low-paying majors enabled you to be educated in a little culture.

- Sudoku

dessertrat
12-18-2007, 16:59
You can hold on to your shoe there buddy, you don't know what size I wear.

Your comments were about people getting bull degrees. A lot of what you say is halfway right, thinking there are "right" degrees and "wrong" degrees is straight bigotry. You could be far and away wiser than I am, but I know one thing - and that's that nobody knows everything. Bringing home the Benjamins is not directly correlated with how valid a degree is. Next time you're reading one of the plaques about the civil war on the trail in Maryland think about what useless, low-paying majors enabled you to be educated in a little culture.

- Sudoku

Yeah, and we might want to think about the soldiers who fought that war, who mostly had either a liberal education or none at all, rather than technical training (which is not, by the way, an education-- it's training).

Mags
12-18-2007, 17:02
chill kids. it's XMAS!:banana

Or Christmahanukwanzakah! (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/341751/chrismahanukwanzakah/)

the_iceman
12-18-2007, 17:05
I saw it a lot this trip. Some hikers were truly on a tight budget but the ironic thing was the ones who really had no money were more likely to share what they had with others.

A lot of hostel operators told me they were sick of people begging for work for stay and then bringing back a 30 pack and getting rowdy. These are the same people who bitched if they actually HAD to work for their stay. They were still a group of nearly penniless young people out there who put in a real effort when they did get a chance to work for stay, but that number is small I am sad to say. One said to three of us, “We like guys like you.” “Guys like us?” “Yeah, you have money to pay your way and you’re old enough to not make trouble.”

It is not just on the trail. There is a sense of entitlement among younger people today. Ethics, integrity, and a strong work ethic are a thing of the past in America. This is a cancer that is eating away at America. There is a total lack of pride in one’s work, one’s reputation, one’s family name, one’s community, and one’s country. :(
Maybe we need to sing God Bless America a little more. :sun

BTW, I am more of a Buddhist than a Christian so please don’t mistake me for a member of the religious right.

Critterman
12-18-2007, 17:28
Next time you're reading one of the plaques about the civil war on the trail in Maryland think about what useless, low-paying majors enabled you to be educated in a little culture.

My Dad was in a different war. He didn't have any degree past high school. The great depression and WW2 were the defining events of his life and luckily for me he taught me the lessons he learned.

emerald
12-18-2007, 17:31
Dude! [etc.]

respectfully yours (but unrespectfully people with bigotous attitudes like Critterman),
- Sudoku

I wasn't looking for your respect, but thanks. I wanted you to see that you seem to view the A.T. and the working world as two separate realms where in one case you do as you're told and the other you do as you wish. I know, I should go back and grab your quotes so you can see how I came to my conclusion. Do you really believe that's so?

I think of them as two facets with many similarities each with lessons to be learned that are transferable to the other.

Sudoku
12-18-2007, 17:41
Shades,

I'm sure as I hike more, and as I enter the professional world more heavily (25hr a week at REI isn't so heavy, we would say) I am sure I'll see more connections between the two. Let me call an "I don't know" on this one. I want to make clear that when I say "do as you wish" I mean doing so without harming other or detracting from their lives. I know you still have to "do as you're told" when you're in the graces of someone else's kindness - or home!

I should like to think what I learned on the trail will extend to my real life - that I won't "get a job, get a house, get a wife" because that's what you're supposed to do, but that I will do those things when I want to, how I want to. But we'll have to see still how it all pans out.

If you want to grab quotes and prove your case that might be interesting but I don't mean to hassle you for it. (We're already far enough from the thread topic (i'm sorry!! :rolleyes:)).

- Sudoku

Bearpaw
12-18-2007, 17:45
The young men and women I worked with in Iraq were very stoic and gave me hope in the future generations. What got me is the people sitting in the FOBs safe and sound bitching about the "attitudes" of the youngsters that were out doing the dangerous stuff.

Just my observation about the younger generation.

Amen. I felt a lot like this when I left the Marine Corps in 1999. Granted, I was only a 27-year-old boot Captain type, but in Marine years, that was middle-aged!

I've been amazed by what many 20-year-old Corporals were able to accomplish.

emerald
12-18-2007, 18:53
Shades,

I'm sure as I hike more, and as I enter the professional world more heavily (25hr a week at REI isn't so heavy, we would say) I am sure I'll see more connections between the two. Let me call an "I don't know" on this one. I want to make clear that when I say "do as you wish" I mean doing so without harming other or detracting from their lives. I know you still have to "do as you're told" when you're in the graces of someone else's kindness - or home!

I should like to think what I learned on the trail will extend to my real life - that I won't "get a job, get a house, get a wife" because that's what you're supposed to do, but that I will do those things when I want to, how I want to. But we'll have to see still how it all pans out.

If you want to grab quotes and prove your case ...


- Sudoku

That's not how I prefer to operate. Besides, I have nothing I need to prove.

I'm glad to hear you've enjoyed the A.T. and I hope it will continue to give you pleasure.

I believe the A.T. is more enjoyable as is life when people don't fight it. Everyone's responsible for his or her own happiness and to a considerable extent it's a choice.

One choice someone on the A.T. can make is to stop hiking before they'd intended, but that decision should be weighed against what might be missed by continuing.

Sometimes, there's a way to put the fun back into it. I suppose it's also true some people aren't happy on or off-trail.

Now I really must move on to other things. I enjoyed exchanging ideas with you today.

V8
12-18-2007, 19:02
People have to learn the culture of a place - everybody has a first time on the AT, and we pick up "how to act" from the people around us. We try to figure out who knows what's what, but if you get it wrong, various stuff follows...

Remember when you were 18 or 20, how amazing it all was, and if I had been on the trail at that age, I doubt I would have known that I was acting "entitled", or that shuttlers weren't shuttling out of the goodness of their hearts.

Not being 18 or 20 now, and having owned lots of cars, and having had lots of life, I realize what it takes to keep the car on the road and to drive it around rutted back roads in all seasons. And that it is good form to offer compensation for services. But failing to do so is not necessarily a sign of bad character, maybe just of being uninformed.

turtle fast
12-18-2007, 19:17
I like Critterman and The Iceman do see this sense of entitlement. Myself, I think the majority of the young people are decent hard working men and women. HOWEVER, I do see this "feeling of entitlement" growing among young people. I realize that the older generation has always looked on the younger set with concern, but we as hikers have concerns for the future of our sport, trails, and communities.
And yes, in my expierence, I have found that a lot of our 20 somethings who have a rural farming background, (college educated or not) dont whine as much as their suburban middleclass counterparts. Maybe its due to the copeious amounts of dairy farms here...

rafe
12-18-2007, 19:17
Remember when you were 18 or 20, how amazing it all was, and if I had been on the trail at that age, I doubt I would have known that I was acting "entitled", or that shuttlers weren't shuttling out of the goodness of their hearts.

Good post, V8. I don't think it's so much kids these days but just the way 20-somethings are, in general. They're wired that way. I call it "the arrogance of youth." Some mature with age, others not so much.

River Runner
12-18-2007, 22:35
Yeah, and we might want to think about the soldiers who fought that war, who mostly had either a liberal education or none at all, rather than technical training (which is not, by the way, an education-- it's training).

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't learning something new an education, no matter whether it's in a 'technical' field or an academic setting? :confused:

clured
12-18-2007, 22:44
And move back in the folks after getting a degree in uselessbull***ology and can't get a job.

Why, how uneducated and bigoted! By "uselessbull***ology" I assume you mean something in the humanities? If so, what a poor, intellectually impoverished life you must lead! Go read a book!

Critterman
12-18-2007, 23:16
Why, how uneducated and bigoted! By "uselessbull***ology" I assume you mean something in the humanities? If so, what a poor, intellectually impoverished life you must lead! Go read a book!

Here are some examples from real families that I know with a college educated young adult living at home. Sports management - extremely competitive field with few jobs available even in a town with 4 professional sports teams, now employed as a temp. Archaeology- working at a stables with shovel but not looking for artifacts, likes the subject but needs a masters to get a job in the field but doesn't want to go back to school. Ancient Greek - sitting on couch mostly, prefers not to teach, not sure what else is available with this one.

River Runner
12-18-2007, 23:31
And move back in the folks after getting a degree in uselessbull***ology and can't get a job.

uselessbull***ology? Isn't that a perfect degree for politicians? It's not that they can't get a job, they're just waiting on the next election! :D

take-a-knee
12-18-2007, 23:48
Pardon my ignorance, but isn't learning something new an education, no matter whether it's in a 'technical' field or an academic setting? :confused:

Not one to parse words, but no, education and training aren't the same, learning to plait buggy whips or rebuild downdraft carbuerators won't make you employable, or even knowledgable, in today's market. A knowledge of the math and physics involved in combustion and stoichiometry will net you a paycheck most likely, either 75 years ago or today.

CoyoteWhips
12-18-2007, 23:56
Not one to parse words, but no, education and training aren't the same, learning to plait buggy whips or rebuild downdraft carbuerators won't make you employable, or even knowledgable, in today's market.

Actually, the whip plaiting gig has worked out rather well for me.

River Runner
12-19-2007, 00:03
Not one to parse words, but no, education and training aren't the same, learning to plait buggy whips or rebuild downdraft carbuerators won't make you employable, or even knowledgable, in today's market. A knowledge of the math and physics involved in combustion and stoichiometry will net you a paycheck most likely, either 75 years ago or today.

I guess that depends on whether you define education as the process of learning something, or the process of academic study. My take is that if you are learning something, you are getting an education. Not to say that some types of education aren't more financially rewarding than others...

Then again, some that aren't as financially rewarding are ultimately more fullfilling.

Skits
12-19-2007, 03:37
Or maybe your friends from the CDT are just odd? ;)



Some of them more than others.:banana

chief
12-19-2007, 04:39
Not one to parse words, but no, education and training aren't the same, learning to plait buggy whips or rebuild downdraft carbuerators won't make you employable, or even knowledgable, in today's market. A knowledge of the math and physics involved in combustion and stoichiometry will net you a paycheck most likely, either 75 years ago or today.Gee, I wish I had known I needed an "education" instead of training. I could have retired at 25 instead of having to wait until I was 45. Now I'm 57 and have forgotten some of the math, physics and combustion principles I picked up in "training". But hey, who needs it!

superman
12-19-2007, 08:02
Every duphis diddle boppen, shower shoed, bone head that starts a thru hike has 100% chance of success until the thru hike is given up for any reason. Then there is zero chance of success. Anything in between 0% and 100% is just a mind game.:rolleyes:

emerald
12-20-2007, 17:11
In your world, I suppose, everyone can live to be 100 too!

The Solemates
12-20-2007, 17:26
In light of this thread, I guess I would be considered a "kid" as well. Sure, people are always going to generalize. Everyone does it all the time, myself included. But remember there is the minority. I myself have lived on my own for years now, have a family, hold down a job, have owned my own house for years, contribute to society, and haven't gotten a penny from my parents in nearly a decade with the exception of minor aid for college tuition (despite them be able to afford giving me charity to if they wanted to) etc.


Then in light of the AT, we spent years saving and preparing to hike the AT together despite our young age and despite being in college while doing this. We took care of all preparations, all logistical issues, everything. Parents never gave us a dime with the small exception of letting us live with them for 14 days prior to our departure since we let our lease expire, and 11 days upon our return from the trail before we found a new place to live. On the trail, we never partied in town, never neglected to pay for services, never expected not to pay for services, and generally never even asked for services unless we could help it.

all young people aren't bad; just the bad ones are bad.

emerald
12-20-2007, 18:09
all young people aren't bad; just the bad ones are bad.

I'm sure nearly everyone here knows what you say to be true. The remainder need to get out more.

Young people have more influence with those youngsters sometimes. You should exert what influence you can.;)

Critterman
12-20-2007, 22:20
In light of this thread, I guess I would be considered a "kid" as well. Sure, people are always going to generalize. Everyone does it all the time, myself included. But remember there is the minority. I myself have lived on my own for years now, have a family, hold down a job, have owned my own house for years, contribute to society, and haven't gotten a penny from my parents in nearly a decade with the exception of minor aid for college tuition (despite them be able to afford giving me charity to if they wanted to) etc.


Then in light of the AT, we spent years saving and preparing to hike the AT together despite our young age and despite being in college while doing this. We took care of all preparations, all logistical issues, everything. Parents never gave us a dime with the small exception of letting us live with them for 14 days prior to our departure since we let our lease expire, and 11 days upon our return from the trail before we found a new place to live. On the trail, we never partied in town, never neglected to pay for services, never expected not to pay for services, and generally never even asked for services unless we could help it.

all young people aren't bad; just the bad ones are bad.

I would be extremely proud of you if I was your parent. I am sure you will achieve whatever goals you set for yourself in life. I hope my daughter will be as hard working and responsible as you are when she grows up.

Nightwalker
01-19-2008, 02:58
I believe that the harassment that MS got here helped him finish. He wouldn't give people the satisfaction of the "I told you so."

I believe that the publicity of SGT. Rock's hike will help him finish, save some terrible injury or family problem. He wouldn't be able to live it down in his own head.

Interesting topic/thread. :)

Nightwalker
01-19-2008, 03:00
all young people aren't bad; just the bad ones are bad.

You are one of the folks that I've always wished that I knew in person. Your integrity speaks loudly and clearly, and I've never seen you lose your temper here.

I wish that I could do that last little trick. :)

Heater
01-19-2008, 03:26
I believe that the harassment that MS got here helped him finish. He wouldn't give people the satisfaction of the "I told you so."

I agree with that.


I believe that the publicity of SGT. Rock's hike will help him finish, save some terrible injury or family problem. He wouldn't be able to live it down in his own head.

I really think he does not give a flip what you or anyone else thinks. Seriously. If that was true, he'd be starting his "thru" ;) at springer and heading NOBO.

Right? :-?

4eyedbuzzard
01-19-2008, 09:30
I believe that the harassment that MS got here helped him finish. He wouldn't give people the satisfaction of the "I told you so."

I believe that the publicity of SGT. Rock's hike will help him finish, save some terrible injury or family problem. He wouldn't be able to live it down in his own head.

Interesting topic/thread. :)

I don't think those, I told you so/not living it down, are very good reasons for hiking. But then again I don't see thru-hiking as a necessary, defining life experience. I know others do. Just a difference of opinion. To me, there are so many challenges or "completion experiences" offered up in most of our lives, I just find thru-hiking to be less important than most others - completing college, being independent and self-supporting, raising a family, etc. I just enjoy walking and camping in the woods. If it stops being fun, well... YMMV, HYOH, etc. :)

4eyedbuzzard
01-19-2008, 09:37
In light of this thread, I guess I would be considered a "kid" as well. Sure, people are always going to generalize. Everyone does it all the time, myself included. But remember there is the minority. I myself have lived on my own for years now, have a family, hold down a job, have owned my own house for years, contribute to society, and haven't gotten a penny from my parents in nearly a decade with the exception of minor aid for college tuition (despite them be able to afford giving me charity to if they wanted to) etc.


Then in light of the AT, we spent years saving and preparing to hike the AT together despite our young age and despite being in college while doing this. We took care of all preparations, all logistical issues, everything. Parents never gave us a dime with the small exception of letting us live with them for 14 days prior to our departure since we let our lease expire, and 11 days upon our return from the trail before we found a new place to live. On the trail, we never partied in town, never neglected to pay for services, never expected not to pay for services, and generally never even asked for services unless we could help it.

all young people aren't bad; just the bad ones are bad.

I think your post should be a "sticky" reply for those that sometimes come on here asking for "sponsorship", donations, or sniveling about not having enough money to hike but not wanting to wait a year and actually save, etc. Kudos to you on your independence and self-reliance.

minnesotasmith
01-21-2008, 01:39
I believe that the harassment that MS got here helped him finish. He wouldn't give people the satisfaction of the "I told you so."



I did NOT want to have a catch in my voice the rest of my life when the subject of the AT or hiking came up.

Too, my avoidably bailing (defined as any reason short of major injury), would have IMO partially been disrespectful of all the people who went out of their way to help me during, before, and after my hike. (DancesWithMice, Matthewski, SteveM, Starlyte, DarwinAgain, Miss Janet, PlansTooMuch, Baltimore Jack, Lone Wolf, on and on and on -- I'm talking about you, you wonderful human beings.)

Further, when some webblazer would reply to a newbie post on WB, saying, "You can't make it with a pack that big/hiking that way", etc., I very much looked forward (post-completion) being able to just post an "Oh, really?", and watch them squirm... :D

Marta
01-21-2008, 07:42
I believe that the publicity of SGT. Rock's hike will help him finish, save some terrible injury or family problem. He wouldn't be able to live it down in his own head.



I suspect Sgt. Rock is his own severest critic.

Or maybe DMW.:D

fiddlehead
01-21-2008, 09:12
If you ask people at Springer (or Baxter for the SBers) if they are going to finish or not, the ones who say: Absolutely! are going to make it!
the one's who say: I hope to or: only God knows, or something like that, well they are more than likely gonna quit somewhere in between IMHO (of course)

Other factors: (questions)
Do you like to walk?
Like Being in nature 24/6? (one day a week in town???)
Do you generally complete things you started? (businesses, schools, marriages, etc.)

Of course there will be exceptions but KNOWING beforehand that you are going to finish and having a history of staying in situations where it's not always easy to continue, will tell you a lot about your chances.

now with 12 pages of posts, i imagine that has been covered. Excuse me for not going through and reading them all but wanted to add my comments to the OP's question

Dances with Mice
01-21-2008, 09:51
Or maybe DMW.Dyslexic with Mice?

Something I've wondered about: I have a little voice in my head (what? doesn't everyone?) that sounds a lot like my drill sergeant. I can hear him on cold, wet mornings: "Why aren't you up yet? Get out of that rack! Are you waiting for a kiss from a handsome prince, Sleeping Beaty?! Get up and get moving! Go, go, go!"

So what I've wondered about is - What do drill sergeants hear?

Marta
01-21-2008, 10:19
Dyslexic with Mice?



DMW--Dead Man Walking=Sgt. Rock's teenaged son=most likely his severest critic;)

superman
01-21-2008, 10:42
Dyslexic with Mice?

Something I've wondered about: I have a little voice in my head (what? doesn't everyone?) that sounds a lot like my drill sergeant. I can hear him on cold, wet mornings: "Why aren't you up yet? Get out of that rack! Are you waiting for a kiss from a handsome prince, Sleeping Beaty?! Get up and get moving! Go, go, go!"

So what I've wondered about is - What do drill sergeants hear?

I ran into my drill instructor a couple years latter. I was so pleased to find out that he hated everbody...it wasn't just me.:)

mudhead
01-21-2008, 11:45
So what I've wondered about is - What do drill sergeants hear?

Not sure, but I bet it's female.