View Full Version : Taking four inexperienced girls hiking
berninbush
12-19-2007, 13:32
I work with a bunch of middle and high school girls at my church, mostly minorities from urban low-income backgrounds. I'm not sure any of them have ever slept in a tent, once less gone backpacking. I'm pondering taking four of them out for an overnighter in the Sam Houston National Forest (just north of Houston) sometime next spring, and I thought I'd see if anyone here could offer advice.
I will only do this trip in warm, pleasant weather (say, next April or May-- that's as nice as it gets in southeast Texas!). I have three small tents that would sleep five of us-- I could carry one, and split the other two among the girls. I would tell them to supply their own large school book bags for backpacks. I'm wondering what to do about sleeping bags. The Sportsmans' Guide website used to have $25 summerweight bags that roll up extremely small-- I bought one for myself-- but they seem to be discontinued now. :( They have Army surplus bags that look similar for $19, but they don't give any information about rolled-up size or weight. I could maybe spend $80 to buy four if they will work. Does anyone know how big these are? (I emailed the company but haven't heard back yet.)
I plan to give the girls a VERY strict packing list... otherwise, no kidding, they will show up with hair dryers and Gameboys and five changes of clothes. I've already got a place in mind to camp... just about a mile from the parking area, on the shore of Lake Conroe (following Sgt. Rock's advice about camping with kids by water!). I figure we can set up camp there, and then use that as a base for a longer day hike. I want to use the opportunity to talk to them about "pack-in-pack-out," Leave No Trace, caring for the environment, survival in the wilderness, etc. The goal is to give them a pretty safe and controlled experience while still acquainting them with the woods and making them feel like they've had a real adventure.
So, any advice for me, regarding the sleeping bags or any other gear, or just in general?
Makeup off before you go. Otherwise you will be hiking with racoons. :)
Sounds like you've got it planned out pretty well. The only thing that seems like it might be a problem to me is the girls using school backpacks. If you are not carrying very much weight at all they might be fine to use. But most likely they are going to be extremely uncomfortable as they most likely do not have a hip belt to support the weight and get it off the sholders. Backpacks arn't cheap but you can find external frames for a lot less than internal ones.
How much weight are you thinking they are going to have to carry? If it is any significant amount at all, you might want to think about getting them backpacks with hip belts.
MTS
envirodiver
12-19-2007, 13:48
Feed them well and let them help. If they've never been camping I bet they've never had fire roasted marshmallows or smores.
I've bought inexpensive sleeping bags at Wal-Mart ($20 range) they don't pack small, but if you're only hiking for 1 mile, you could even have them just carry the bags in their hand (in a stuff sack).
envirodiver
12-19-2007, 13:53
Another idea is to rent gear. REI rents quality sleeping bags, pads and backpacks. There are 2 stores in Houston, 2 in Austin, Dallas and Plano. The prices are pretty good and if there is a legitimate charitable aspect to this the event coordinator at the store may help out some.
Lone Wolf
12-19-2007, 13:56
When the time comes to buy bags, packs or other gear I will donate $$$. Send me a PM, I will send you a check. The gear could be used for future trips with other kids.
I would make it a car camping experience. Maybe day hike from camp. You would not have to worry about sleeping bags, just bring blankets from home. With the scouts we are required to go with at least two leaders on every outing. I would suggest bringing along at least one other adult, for their protection and yours.
It sounds like you have everything in order. Far enough from roads for some sense of adventure, but no so far that it's going to be an ordeal.
Make sure that you keep it easy--hiking is no fun if you're not in shape for it. Having lots of stuff is no fun. Make sure to check the weather the weekend before you leave, and maybe have a bad weather bailout? Make sure that the meals you plan to cook are good, and to have something fun for the girls to do other than just hike.
Having a second leader would be a good idea--maybe even a female one. They're old enough to have hit puberty, and odds are (according to murphy) at least one of them will have to deal with the associated problems while on your trip.
booney_1
12-19-2007, 14:05
Checkout Walmart's sleeping bags on-line (they deliver to a nearby store for free). They have bags at $15,$17, and a few bags in the low $20's.
Also any quilt or blanket can be "turned" into a sleeping bag with safety pins
(diaper pins work well).
If you were to contact a nearby boy scout troop, I'm sure they would be willing to lend equipment also.
This is a good thing you are doing. Introducing kids into the outdoors can make a big difference in their lives...
High Five!!
Bootstrap
12-19-2007, 14:32
Having a second leader would be a good idea--maybe even a female one. They're old enough to have hit puberty, and odds are (according to murphy) at least one of them will have to deal with the associated problems while on your trip.
In today's litigious society, I think having a second leader is a MUST, but perhaps I'm paranoid. If I were doing this, I would really want a second adult who could testify that I wasn't doing anything suspicious.
And I agree with the idea of a female leader.
I also wonder if the families could be persuaded to participate. Wouldn't it be great if you got families interested in going out together?
Jonathan
berninbush
12-19-2007, 14:58
When the time comes to buy bags, packs or other gear I will donate $$$. Send me a PM, I will send you a check. The gear could be used for future trips with other kids.
That is an incredibly sweet and generous offer. Let me see how the planning goes.
Re: bringing another leader, I knew that would be suggested. I don't really have anyone else who I think could come, however. My regular co-leader of the group *might* have been up for this a year ago, but she's had some health problems and wouldn't be able to hike or sleep on the ground now. I do realize the risks... on the other hand, there are risks inherent in just about any activity involving someone else's kids. I've weighed it in my mind and decided I can live with it.
I want to keep the group size to no more than five, including myself, so that we can all camp together without being an environmental hardship. Involving the families is a nice idea, but not this trip.
I think part of what I want them to come away with is a realization of the difference between what they *want* and what they *need.* Backpacking is good for this, because everything you bring has a "cost" in terms of weight you carry. That's one reason I want to go a mile into the woods, instead of car camping... it gives me an extra good reason to tell them to leave their electronics at home.
I love hip belts myself, but I do hope to keep the weight light enough that a school book bag will be adequate. I've got a monster-big pack myself (my only luggage for a week-and-a-half trip to Europe) so I can take on some extra load if I need to. I'll have to experiment and see what I can put on them without making it too much.
Good points about the makeup and the female problems... I'll give that some thought.
I know Walmart and Target sometimes have fleece bags in the $15 range that pack fairly small... if it's not too cold, those would be an option too. (I'm just a VERY cold sleeper myself, and that's a miserable way to spend a night!)
Very good point also about having activities planned, and alternate plans for bad weather. I definitely want to keep them busy. Swimming in the lake might be an option. Some of the girls had s'mores on a previous outing (where we stayed in a cabin), but that's something I'll plan on doing again! Hot dogs and baked potatoes cook well on a campfire, too. (Yeah, I know, heavy....)
Christopher Robin
12-19-2007, 15:17
Another idea is to rent gear. REI rents quality sleeping bags, pads and backpacks. There are 2 stores in Houston, 2 in Austin, Dallas and Plano. The prices are pretty good and if there is a legitimate charitable aspect to this the event coordinator at the store may help out some.
Good surjestion. I also worked w/youth this samr type of group, take the girls for a half a day hike the a full day to help them to see what type of shoes & chlothing to wear. A cheap wind breaker & poncho a must. See if the loacl Girl Souts have a leadre or trainer that is willing to come out to a meeting & help everyone out. If you need to ask me other questions be feel to e-mail me.
warraghiyagey
12-19-2007, 15:27
I'd start them out at a basecamp type area where with all the amenities, a house or church or something and have them all hike in a few miles and then back with their full packs and have them set up tents and do their domestics when they got back. It would give them a chance to decide if they want to do it, better to find out that way than to have everyone in the group have their experience altered by having one member that wants to go home.
Also, definitley a female adult would seem prudent.
gsingjane
12-19-2007, 15:58
Hi, as a Girl Scout leader who's taken girls out more times than she can count, I think you have things pretty well covered. It might make sense to talk a little bit about bathroom facilities (or lack thereof) before you go; I've seen kids shocked to discover that there actually aren't toilets and sinks at regular intervals along the trail. The kids are generally way too embarrassed to use the "natural facility" so be prepared for the fact that there might be some upset tummies or odd moments.
Just for myself (I am assuming here that you are a man), and given that you probably enjoy living in a house, owning a car, working at a job, having a retirement account, etc., I would never in a hundred million years take girls into the woods without another adult. And I'm a woman! I totally hear you on the relative risks thing but wow, take it from me, you have no idea what a world of trouble you could potentially buy in doing this. There has GOT to be somebody else in the state of Texas that wants to go and do this with you. The above suggestion to get a Girl Scout leader is good, or somebody else in your youth group, or maybe someone from an outdoor rec program at a local college, or a camp leader you've met, or even a relative or friend of yours. Heck, if I were closer I'd come down there and do this with you, that's how much I think you need to re-consider the urge to do it alone.
I commend you heartily for (a) doing this and (b) putting so much thoughtful effort into it. But you know that saying, no good deed goes unpunished, and I would truly hate to see that happen to you.
Take care!
Jane in CT
Great stuff! I commend you for doing this really important work! I would suggest you start slow with some day hikes. Their fist time hiking should not be an overnight IMO. Ease them into it. Remember, first impressions are lasting!
And Lone Wolf! You da Man! I'd be happy to help too. Send me a PM.
the_iceman
12-19-2007, 16:07
I coached girls' soccer from 8 to 18. Get them together a few nights before the trip for a "dress rehersal". Do something fun and have a few small awards for best packed, most ridiculous thing in a pack, lightest pack, heaviest pack, etc. Let them self-critique one another and you can throw in a few subtle points along the way. This will help avoid some surprises.
I agree with 2 adults.
I also took my kids to out of state tournaments and had them sign a code of conduct before I went just so they knew what was expected.
berninbush
12-19-2007, 16:07
Whoops, no, I'm female! I wouldn't take a group of girls into the woods if I were a man, for sure. Nor would I take just one child into the woods alone unless I knew the family *very* well indeed.
On the other hand... your average schoolteacher (male or female) spends the better part of their day alone with a group of kids. And yes, accidents do happen at school and teachers do get accused of things, and a classroom is less isolated than the woods. But I continue to think it's not a ridiculous risk. Still, I'll ask around between now and then and see if any other adults are interested.
I mentioned this idea briefly to the girls at our Christmas party to gauge interest. At first a bunch of hands went up... then I went on to describe the kind of camping I meant (including a description of digging a hole and going to the bathroom in the woods) and some hands went down, but some said they were still interested. I plan to bring it back up in February or March and see what they think. If more than four are interested, I'll probably have some kind of drawing... and if the first trip goes well, I might take out a second group later (which is a consideration to keep in mind when I decide whether to rent or buy cheap equipment).
Thanks for all the feedback!
the_iceman
12-19-2007, 16:13
I took girls on trips all the time and there were just the 2 male coaches quite often. I had rules that I followed. If we ever had a meeting the door was wide open and there were 2 of us in the room. I did not let other parents be alone with the kids either, male or female. There is too much wierd stuff to take a chance and a rumor or false acusation can do just as much damage to your reputation as a real one.
I would never in a hundred million years take girls into the woods without another adult
The church that sponsors our scout troop has the same 2 depth leader rule when dealing with youth. They call it a youth protection plan. All scout leaders, sunday scholl teachers, youth leaders, etc. are required to be trained, and refreshed every year. Bernin Bush, I would be suprised if your church doesn't have a similar program.
OregonHiker
12-19-2007, 16:19
So, any advice for me, regarding the sleeping bags or any other gear, or just in general?
Google Pphilmont gear list
OregonHiker
12-19-2007, 16:20
oops ... Philmont
Monkeyboy
12-19-2007, 17:13
Hi, as a Girl Scout leader who's taken girls out more times than she can count, I think you have things pretty well covered. It might make sense to talk a little bit about bathroom facilities (or lack thereof) before you go; I've seen kids shocked to discover that there actually aren't toilets and sinks at regular intervals along the trail. The kids are generally way too embarrassed to use the "natural facility" so be prepared for the fact that there might be some upset tummies or odd moments.
Just for myself (I am assuming here that you are a man), and given that you probably enjoy living in a house, owning a car, working at a job, having a retirement account, etc., I would never in a hundred million years take girls into the woods without another adult. And I'm a woman! I totally hear you on the relative risks thing but wow, take it from me, you have no idea what a world of trouble you could potentially buy in doing this. There has GOT to be somebody else in the state of Texas that wants to go and do this with you. The above suggestion to get a Girl Scout leader is good, or somebody else in your youth group, or maybe someone from an outdoor rec program at a local college, or a camp leader you've met, or even a relative or friend of yours. Heck, if I were closer I'd come down there and do this with you, that's how much I think you need to re-consider the urge to do it alone.
I commend you heartily for (a) doing this and (b) putting so much thoughtful effort into it. But you know that saying, no good deed goes unpunished, and I would truly hate to see that happen to you.
Take care!
Jane in CT
I agree with this wholeheartedly......
At no time should a leader ever take any child anywhere without :
a) At least two children
b) At least two adults (preferrably not related)
It is for your safety as well as theirs.
LIhikers
12-19-2007, 18:02
Another option for gear is to see if someplace that rents gear would be willing to do it as a donation to the church. Then when the trip is finished provide that outfit with some free, public, recognition that your entire community, not just the church members, will see and of course have the church issue them a reciept for a donation in the amount of rental fees that you save.
River Runner
12-19-2007, 18:03
Not only do you need two leaders due to the possiblity of accusation, but you need two in the case of emergency. You cannot leave the kids unsupervised, and one adult needs to stay with the group & one go for help.
Couple ideas....
1. Have the kids to a grassy area one afternoon and set up camp and let them get familiar with the stuff.
2. Give them a list of things to bring, so that their packs will weigh about the right amount, and take them on a two mile day-hike. You can tell them that the actual overnight trip won't be as long.
3. Then from the survivors, go for the overnight trip.
If you were in my neck of the woods, I'd loan you gear and go with you, as well. I'm a female assistant scoutmaster with a boy scout troop. See if you can contact the paid professionals in your scouting area who could recommend girl or boy scout troops, or venture crews. S/he might know of a scouting group that would lend you gear and perhaps even an adult who could come with you. Maybe I've been doing scouting too long, but I would never go on a trip without another adult to back me up.
Bootstrap
12-19-2007, 23:14
Not only do you need two leaders due to the possiblity of accusation, but you need two in the case of emergency. You cannot leave the kids unsupervised, and one adult needs to stay with the group & one go for help.
Very good point. In an emergency, carrying someone out is usually unrealistic.
Jonathan
berninbush
12-20-2007, 00:58
you need two in the case of emergency. You cannot leave the kids unsupervised, and one adult needs to stay with the group & one go for help.
Or I could whip out my handy cell phone, which gets perfectly good reception in the area in question, and call for help just as I would if there were a medical emergency at church. ;):rolleyes: I'm frequently the only adult in the room there, too. That's just the way it is.
*waits for the barrage of "never trust a cell phone!"*
Seriously... thanks for the input, everyone. I think the advantages of having a second adult along have been adequately discussed and I will give them due consideration between now and the time I start planning this thing in earnest.
In other thoughts... the "dayhike shakedown" isn't a bad idea either, if I could find a suitable time and place to do it. (The church is in a rough neighborhood and our program meets at night.) But in any case I intend to "scare" the girls a bit by telling them this is not an adventure for the faint of heart, and that once they're committed (i.e. on the hike) they are not allowed to back out, short of a medical emergency, for the good of the group. Hopefully that will weed out the snivellers.
I got a response from Sportsman's Guide... they have discontinued the nifty little $25 sleeping bags I liked so much. :( The army bags sound like they're a bit heavier and bulkier, but I might get them anyway. Thanks to everyone who has offered (publicly and privately) to help with getting gear... I'll look at my options and decide what to do. :) After, that is, I see whether my scare tactics frighten all my potential hikers off....
gsingjane
12-20-2007, 09:36
Good luck with the "no bagging" rule. I've tried to set those, too, but when you're up against a parent claiming their daughter is sick (sick with a sudden attack of cold feet, that is), there's very little you can do. I have been at the point of loading the car for a trip, and had girls back out right then and there... if the parent gets involved, there's really nothing you can do.
I have to say, I find it very interesting that so many people (not the parents in your church, I know) are willing to pay quite large sums of money to wilderness experience programs such as Outward Bound or some of the Y camps (which, at least here in CT, are extremely pricey), yet when there is the chance to go for almost nothing, as in Girl Scouts, people balk. This is why now, at least generally speaking, I will tend to take girls to a much more structured overnight, such as at a camp or some kind of a camporee event (we do one every year at Sikorsky Aircraft), rather than going out for a hike in the woods. Parents seem to feel very leery of having their kids go into a setting where the "public" (IOW, not a pre-screened group of people, affiliated with an organization) is permitted to be.
Taking kids, especially girls, for overnight adventures can be extremely fun. And, it is something that virtually no families, whether rich or poor, are doing nowadays, so you really will be delivering a unique experience. But the biggest thing I have learned is that you have to really be flexible... their concept of what makes a good time just isn't necessarily going to be the same as yours. I used to be a real "no electronics" zealot, but I've had to totally ease up on that. Now I just tell the kids, and their parents, that the girl brings that kind of stuff at her own risk, and that I'm not going to spend any time looking for something that gets lost, much less be responsible if something breaks (and, believe me, every single time, somebody does lose her cell phone or iPod and there is a hysterical meltdown).
Assume everything will take about 10 times longer than you think it will. If it takes you 30 minutes to get packed up and moving in the morning, plan that it will take the girls 2 hours +. Expect "issues" over who is going to tent with whom... consider assigning tents to avoid another hysterical meltdown. What does happen with many girls, although not all, unfortunately, is that you do have girls who get into the swing of things and finally stop worrying about the state of their hair, nails, etc. That can be very cool. Most of the time they will want to walk two abreast on the trail (no matter what you tell them) so they can talk the whole time, regardless of what neat nature things you want to point out. But the interesting thing is, when you bring it up a year later, they will remember many details of the trip, and you will be surprised at how fondly.
Have fun!
Jane in CT
the_iceman
12-20-2007, 09:57
The mystery and the joy of the outdoors has to be one of self-discovery. If we can get them out there even just once that is all it takes for about 30% of the kids.
I used to deal with about 70 kids a season and my wife would ask me why I put up with the bitching and whining and the parents. Then we would go somewhere and one kid would come by and say hi or thanks and that was enough. Just to know you made a difference in just one young person is enough.
I took my daughter and one of her friends hiking one spring on the AT (CT/MA line) for 3 days. This was the girl's first backpacking trip. She managed to borrow equipment which was all way too big for her. It rained, it was cold, and Sage's Ravine was coated with ice. We had fun and she came back with another friend in tow for our fall hike. Just keep their spirits high and make sure they see you having fun.
Assigning tent makes can be tricky. Tell them you do not want issues and hurt feelings. Get them to agree to draw names and stick with their partners as part of the challenge.
gsingjane
12-20-2007, 14:43
Yeah, I know the assigning thing can be hard... some troops let the girls decide for themselves but wow, have I ever seen some mean, mean behavior over that. I've seen girls get verbal, I've seen girls get up and very pointedly move their stuff when "the wrong girl" appears in the tent door, I've had girls tell me they want to go home then and there. It seems to be one of those areas where, if there are any interpersonal issues, they all come tumbling out at tenting time. You can tell them all you want that they're not going to make a big deal out of it, but then sometimes... especially I have found at the 5-6-and a little bit of the 7th-grade levels, they can get awfully nasty. Once past that, they seem to be a bit more mature, or at least my group maybe has cohered a little more since the days of the "tent wars."
In the Boy Scouts, what I saw them do was tell the boys they had to pick a tentmate ahead of time and then stick with him. (This worked insofar as everybody who signed up to come, actually came). At Philmont, I guess they rotated assignments every couple of nights. But I know there have been a few times when my boys have gotten their feelings hurt over this issue, too.
Yikes!
Jane
River Runner
12-20-2007, 14:46
Or I could whip out my handy cell phone, which gets perfectly good reception in the area in question, and call for help just as I would if there were a medical emergency at church. ;):rolleyes: I'm frequently the only adult in the room there, too. That's just the way it is.
*waits for the barrage of "never trust a cell phone!"*
Actually it never occured to me that a cell phone would work where you would be camping. They generally don't work in the areas outside of cities & highway corriders here. ;)
bullseye
12-20-2007, 15:06
Contact me when the time comes and I'm in with some alky stoves! Good luck.
Alligator
12-20-2007, 15:38
...
I love hip belts myself, but I do hope to keep the weight light enough that a school book bag will be adequate. I've got a monster-big pack myself (my only luggage for a week-and-a-half trip to Europe) so I can take on some extra load if I need to. I'll have to experiment and see what I can put on them without making it too much.
I have a Arcteryx Bora 95 pack (95 liters). I packed light for a trip with my wife who carried a GG Vapor Trail and my toddler without pack. I kept my wife's pack very light, so I was the sherpa. There was no room left in my pack and we had non bulky items. I think you will have difficulty limiting the girls to school packs, especially if you use cheap sleeping bags.
I've used a fleece bag and found it cold in summer.
Take another adult - no matter what.
Just go for it, make sure everyone has the right gear, extra clothes for night or getting dry if cold ( even in the summer). Too much info before you leave will ruin the excitement and confidence that will be built dealing with new and unusual situations. Let them figure it out about the bathroom stuff.
Have a great time :)
Two leader deep! Absolutely.
Buddy system!
Permission Slips, with parents' phone number!
Christopher Robin
12-20-2007, 18:20
I have another thougth , Girl Souts of the same age or older need service hours for their "Gold Award" or a projet & could help you prepare the girls for backpacing or go has the second person. Also you could think of plan that you stay in one place & day hike. I have grandkid that love backpacking w/me, & the youngest is jusr 10yrs.
doggiebag
12-20-2007, 18:32
When the time comes to buy bags, packs or other gear I will donate $$$. Send me a PM, I will send you a check. The gear could be used for future trips with other kids.
You're a standup guy LW. Next spring would give me enough time to contribute some gear. Ditto with the PM when the time comes - I'll see what I can put together.
copythat
12-21-2007, 00:24
excellent idea, lots of excellent advice. i'd like to second some:
1) 2 adults! (for propriety AND safety. what if the only adult gets hurt, or sick? you gonna send the greenhorn kids to get help while your appendix is swelling?)
2) drive to a base camp with bathrooms! stay one night, do some local hiking. recipe for first-time success. you can hike out overnight another time. (LOTS of experience with girl scout campouts. stress them out on the first night, they usually won't go again.) this also addresses the cheap-but-large sleeping bags and the cheap-and-small packs problem. (also lets you carry a cast iron skillet for bacon and eggs!)
3) ask your local weekly paper to run a request for loaned/donated gear. or contact other churches, in addition to your local outfitters. fish around, you'll find what you need.
4) learn to play "spit." (i sure did!)
5) do NOT be put off by the challenges of pulling this together. everyone wins.
Monkeyboy
12-22-2007, 23:14
Oh....almost forgot......
Have them read this book (http://www.amazon.com/How-****-Woods-Environmentally-Approach/dp/0898156270)
moondoggy
12-23-2007, 15:59
My wife works with disadvantaged and troubled kids. Last year she was coordinating some type of event for the kids. She went to several local chapters of the Kiwanis(sp), they're all about kids, and were very happy to contirbute. Each Walmart store has a community outreach person.....our local stores didn't come through very well but it may be worth asking......
And if it's a go ,PM me too......I'll send a check