View Full Version : LNT - Pro/Con
OregonHiker
12-22-2007, 00:15
I've heard som pro and I've heard some con. Tell me why?
:welcome
I'd be interested in hearing the "Con" that you've heard :)
River Runner
12-22-2007, 00:19
Yee-haw! I got the popcorn! :D
Popcorn, beer and a side of chocolate just in case :)
ChinMusic
12-22-2007, 00:26
LNT is a non-obtainable standard, but it still is something to strive for.
how about minimize trace?
LNT is a non-obtainable standard, but it still is something to strive for.
I agree. So it seems someone's gone and "commercialized" it. Who cares? It's still a worthy concept.
OregonHiker
12-22-2007, 00:29
how about minimize trace?
That is my interpertation
OregonHiker
12-22-2007, 00:29
I'd be interested in hearing the "Con" that you've heard :)
Paging Mr. Wolf :-?
whitefoot_hp
12-22-2007, 00:30
i guess you are asking what the pros and cons of choosing to strive for LNT are?
if you choose to strive for LNT, pros are: you make less impact and if everyone does this the trail looks better and maintains better
cons: you have to actually pay attention to what you do and not act like a slob on the trail
choosing not to strive for LNT: pro: you can act like a slob, if you so choose.
con: if by not striving for LNT you approach LMT (leave many traces) the trail may become ugly
ChinMusic
12-22-2007, 00:31
I wonder if there is a market for "Trace Offsets"???
I wonder if there is a market for "Trace Offsets"???
LOL! Good one. :D
Pedaling Fool
12-22-2007, 00:33
LNT is ok, but I'm not looking for that damn hiking stick during my hike this year! :D
River Runner
12-22-2007, 00:42
Okay, I'll post a serious reply here -
Pro - The trail looks better for everyone else coming behind. Hopefully those in front of you are practicing LNT, or at least as much LNT as possible, so your experience is enjoyable too.
Con - Some LNT principles seem to disregard common sense. I.E. packing out used toilet paper may do more harm due to a risk of bacterial contamination with the used T.P. being in your pack (albeit sealed) than burying it deep in the hole with your waste. More erosion could occur from people slipping and sliding in steep places than the small holes along the side of the trail caused by trekking poles. Oh, and one of the most controversial, which turns a lot of people off - trying to influence color choices by saying only natural colors should be used on the trail. Personally, I like natural colors, but some folks take a lot of offense at being told their tent shouldn't be orange. :D
As with many other philosophies, YMMV.
4eyedbuzzard
12-22-2007, 00:42
Pro: It sets a very high standard for protecting wilderness areas.
Con: From an absolute viewpoint, it's simply impossible and everybody knows it. People are less apt to obey rules/standards that are unrealistic.
Lone Wolf
12-22-2007, 00:45
i've never seen it. people who practice it, well that's the problem. they're just practicing. trace is everywhere
Packing out TP seems extreme to me. But folks ought to know how to dig and use a proper cathole. It can be a fun challenge (and not all that difficult, in practice) to leave a stealth campsite in a condition where nobody would ever know you'd been there.
whitefoot_hp
12-22-2007, 00:57
i guess for the technical, we could call it LALTARP. leave as little trace as reasonably possible. i am cosidering trademarking that acronym.
i've never seen it. people who practice it, well that's the problem. they're just practicing. trace is everywhere
I don't get your point. There are lots of unobtainable ideals. That doesn't mean they're not worth striving for. Small forward steps are still better than standing still or moving backwards.
Lone Wolf
12-22-2007, 01:01
like expecting a boat to Leave No Wake
whitefoot_hp
12-22-2007, 01:09
what about LALTARP?
like expecting a boat to Leave No Wake
Good example. Lots of busy harbors and moorages have strict speed limits for boats. "No wake" is impossible, but most folks understand the ideal that's being sought, and the reason for it. And the harbormaster may fine you if you violate the rules. ;)
Yes, it's impossible to leave NO trace, but the point is to leave the area as pristine as you reasonably can.
gldwings1
12-22-2007, 09:51
My interpretation is the trail looks better but also it's more ecologically sound. I teach my kids because we make millions of tons of garbage every day in the populated world so why add to it by adding it to the "unpopulated world". And LNT is the responsible thing to do.
Personally, I like natural colors, but some folks take a lot of offense at being told their tent shouldn't be orange. :D
LNT is not about telling people they way it is in black & white. There are exceptions, as in the case of cutting down live trees. Someone suggested LNT advises to carry out your TP. That's not actually true. In some areas, carrying out your waste is required. Mt. Whitney comes to mind. In other areas it is suggested as an option. For instance, some of the traveling trainers demonstrate the poop tube. But they never tell you that you have to do that. It's an ongoing dialog.
It used to be common for people to trench around their tent. And bury trash in the woods. And litter. Those practices are starting to disappear. Entire generations of Boy Scouts are growing up with LNT ingrained in them. (The Boy Scouts does more with LNT than any other group.) As we become collectively aware of ways that we can lessen our impact on the land, future generations will benefit by being able to experience wild places that are not impaired or permanently scarred, or impaired to a lesser degree than they would be if LNT was not around. That's a good thing IMO.
4eyedbuzzard
12-22-2007, 10:34
i guess for the technical, we could call it LALTARP. leave as little trace as reasonably possible. i am cosidering trademarking that acronym.
LALTARP sounds too much like LOLTARP - a tarp set up in high winds;)
How about ROFLMAO = Reduce Or Forego Long-term Man-made Artifacts in the Outdoors.:banana
What? ROFLMAO is already taken?
The search for the perfect acronym continues...:confused:
In the mean time, I'll just remember to tread lightly and pack out what I pack in.:cool:
Before you criticize, perhaps it's best to list the principles....
http://www.lnt.org/images/quotes/wildness.jpg
Plan Ahead and Prepare
Know the regulations and special concerns for the area you'll visit.
Prepare for extreme weather, hazards, and emergencies.
Schedule your trip to avoid times of high use.
Visit in small groups when possible. Consider splitting larger groups into smaller groups.
Repackage food to minimize waste.
Use a map and compass to eliminate the use of marking paint, rock cairns or flagging. Details ( + ) (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_1.php)
Travel and Camp on Durable Surfaces
Durable surfaces include established trails and campsites, rock, gravel, dry grasses or snow.
Protect riparian areas by camping at least 200 feet from lakes and streams.
Good campsites are found, not made. Altering a site is not necessary.In popular areas:
Concentrate use on existing trails and campsites.
Walk single file in the middle of the trail, even when wet or muddy.
Keep campsites small. Focus activity in areas where vegetation is absent.
In pristine areas:
Disperse use to prevent the creation of campsites and trails.
Avoid places where impacts are just beginning. Details ( + ) (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_2.php)
Dispose of Waste Properly
Pack it in, pack it out. Inspect your campsite and rest areas for trash or spilled foods. Pack out all trash, leftover food, and litter.
Deposit solid human waste in catholes dug 6 to 8 inches deep at least 200 feet from water, camp, and trails. Cover and disguise the cathole when finished.
Pack out toilet paper and hygiene products.
To wash yourself or your dishes, carry water 200 feet away from streams or lakes and use small amounts of biodegradable soap. Scatter strained dishwater.
Leave What You Find
Preserve the past: examine, but do not touch, cultural or historic structures and artifacts.
Leave rocks, plants and other natural objects as you find them.
Avoid introducing or transporting non-native species.
Do not build structures, furniture, or dig trenches. Details ( + ) (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_4.php)
Minimize Campfire Impacts
Campfires can cause lasting impacts to the backcountry. Use a lightweight stove for cooking and enjoy a candle lantern for light.
Where fires are permitted, use established fire rings, fire pans, or mound fires.
Keep fires small. Only use sticks from the ground that can be broken by hand.
Burn all wood and coals to ash, put out campfires completely, then scatter cool ashes. Details ( + ) (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_5.php)
Respect Wildlife
Observe wildlife from a distance. Do not follow or approach them.
Never feed animals. Feeding wildlife damages their health, alters natural behaviors, and exposes them to predators and other dangers.
Protect wildlife and your food by storing rations and trash securely.
Control pets at all times, or leave them at home.
Avoid wildlife during sensitive times: mating, nesting, raising young, or winter. Details ( + ) (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_6.php)
Be Considerate of Other Visitors
Respect other visitors and protect the quality of their experience.
Be courteous. Yield to other users on the trail.
Step to the downhill side of the trail when encountering pack stock.
Take breaks and camp away from trails and other visitors.
Let nature's sounds prevail. Avoid loud voices and noises Details ( + ) (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_7.php)
LNT = STAY HOME!
As stated previously, LNT is a GOAL, an IDEAL, not a neatly packaged list of do's and don'ts (though there is no end to the list of suggestions).
Truthfully, though, if you left as little evidence as possible, camping RIGHT ON the trail would be the way to go (except you'd get in the way :p ).
LNT sounds the opposite of Internet Hiking practices...
To promote LNT, you can always buy a LNT Nalgene bottle...
https://store.lnt.org/buy
Lone Wolf
12-22-2007, 11:17
Before you criticize, perhaps it's best to list the principles....
http://www.lnt.org/images/quotes/wildness.jpg
Plan Ahead and Prepare
Know the regulations and special concerns for the area you'll visit.
Prepare for extreme weather, hazards, and emergencies.
Schedule your trip to avoid times of high use.
Visit in small groups when possible. Consider splitting larger groups into smaller groups.
Repackage food to minimize waste.
Use a map and compass to eliminate the use of marking paint, rock cairns or flagging. Details ( + ) (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_1.php)
Travel and Camp on Durable Surfaces
Durable surfaces include established trails and campsites, rock, gravel, dry grasses or snow.
Protect riparian areas by camping at least 200 feet from lakes and streams.
Good campsites are found, not made. Altering a site is not necessary.In popular areas:
Concentrate use on existing trails and campsites.
Walk single file in the middle of the trail, even when wet or muddy.
Keep campsites small. Focus activity in areas where vegetation is absent.
In pristine areas:
Disperse use to prevent the creation of campsites and trails.
Avoid places where impacts are just beginning. Details ( + ) (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_2.php)
Dispose of Waste Properly
Pack it in, pack it out. Inspect your campsite and rest areas for trash or spilled foods. Pack out all trash, leftover food, and litter.
Deposit solid human waste in catholes dug 6 to 8 inches deep at least 200 feet from water, camp, and trails. Cover and disguise the cathole when finished.
Pack out toilet paper and hygiene products.
To wash yourself or your dishes, carry water 200 feet away from streams or lakes and use small amounts of biodegradable soap. Scatter strained dishwater.
Leave What You Find
Preserve the past: examine, but do not touch, cultural or historic structures and artifacts.
Leave rocks, plants and other natural objects as you find them.
Avoid introducing or transporting non-native species.
Do not build structures, furniture, or dig trenches. Details ( + ) (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_4.php)
Minimize Campfire Impacts
Campfires can cause lasting impacts to the backcountry. Use a lightweight stove for cooking and enjoy a candle lantern for light.
Where fires are permitted, use established fire rings, fire pans, or mound fires.
Keep fires small. Only use sticks from the ground that can be broken by hand.
Burn all wood and coals to ash, put out campfires completely, then scatter cool ashes. Details ( + ) (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_5.php)
Respect Wildlife
Observe wildlife from a distance. Do not follow or approach them.
Never feed animals. Feeding wildlife damages their health, alters natural behaviors, and exposes them to predators and other dangers.
Protect wildlife and your food by storing rations and trash securely.
Control pets at all times, or leave them at home.
Avoid wildlife during sensitive times: mating, nesting, raising young, or winter. Details ( + ) (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_6.php)
Be Considerate of Other Visitors
Respect other visitors and protect the quality of their experience.
Be courteous. Yield to other users on the trail.
Step to the downhill side of the trail when encountering pack stock.
Take breaks and camp away from trails and other visitors.
Let nature's sounds prevail. Avoid loud voices and noises Details ( + ) (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_7.php)
thru-hikers and maintainers alike break most of these rules. i like the one about eliminating marking paint, cairns and flagging. what a joke :)
thru-hikers and maintainers alike break most of these rules. i like the one about eliminating marking paint, cairns and flagging. what a joke :)
LW, have you heard the expression, "throwing out the baby with the bathwater?" :-?
thru-hikers and maintainers alike break most of these rules. i like the one about eliminating marking paint, cairns and flagging. what a joke :)
Read again. Under Plan Ahead and Prepare: It says bring a map and compass to eliminate the need to use the above. I'd be all for that.
Lone Wolf
12-22-2007, 11:39
LW, have you heard the expression, "throwing out the baby with the bathwater?" :-?
no. have not
Last year there were two hikers who were leaving their names written on the blazes, I'd venture to say they were the same two who were leaving the shiny little pieces of their wrappers along the way just thrown off to the side of the trail too.
Sometimes I think that if rules are put into a list- it's a good guide for those who are willing to adhere to them - and for others it may be a neat list to see how many they can break or not take seriously.
Riverrunner, good point about the TP packing issue, I have to agree with you on that one!
It would seem that the very existence of shelters in the first place would propagate many of these rules to be difficult if not impossible to follow.
For those who care, they are still a good thing to strive for though :)
Lone Wolf
12-22-2007, 11:46
It would seem that the very existence of shelters in the first place would propagate many of these rules to be difficult if not impossible to follow.
correct. shelters and the areas around them are filthy nasty dumps
4eyedbuzzard
12-22-2007, 11:56
Given that the existence of a maintained trail by definition leaves a BIG trace with all that goes with it(shelters, privies, designated camping areas, blazing, water usage, and mostly just humans being there), the best we can accomplish is to keep it clean and try to help preserve the illusion of wilderness it provides. But realistically, the AT is not wilderness in the true sense, nor was it designed or meant to be from the get-go.
The only problem I have with LNT is the way it is promoted and practiced it leaves people with the impression that we can carry on with our daily lives and not do the environment any harm as long as we completely isolate ourselves as much as possible from the natural habitat we aparently care so much about. It is delusional, like thinking we can solve climate change by driving our kids to school and to soccer and then stop off at home in our hybrid minivan and pickup another solar panel for our 4000 sqft eco-home.
LNT is meaningless if we don't extend it to our daily lives, and that is impossible. The goal should not be minimal impact either. The goal should be SUSTAINABLE IMPACT. What is sustainable impact? What is sustainability? Let's review the "Daly Rules".
Daly Rules:
1. Renewable resources such as fish, soil, and groundwater must be used no faster than the rate at which they regenerate.
2. Nonrenewable resources such as minerals and fossil fuels must be used no faster than renewable substitutes for them can be put into place.
3. Pollution and wastes must be emitted no faster than natural systems can absorb them, recycle them, or render them harmless.
Hiking with a Leave No Trace policy makes absolute perfect sense in environmentally sensitive areas, but only within the greater context of sustainability and natural habitat renewal. In less sensitive areas it is what we do on our way to and from the trail, and how we live our daily lives, and what sort of development we allow to take place around us, that is far more important.
Given that the existence of a maintained trail by definition leaves a BIG trace with all that goes with it(shelters, privies, designated camping areas, blazing, water usage, and mostly just humans being there), the best we can accomplish is to keep it clean and try to help preserve the illusion of wilderness it provides. But realistically, the AT is not wilderness in the true sense, nor was it designed or meant to be from the get-go.
Which should all go without saying. Trails themselves are traces. Lets not get too nitpicky here, most LNT guidelines are common sense. Trying to argue against the merits of LNT isn't very constructive.
Which should all go without saying. Trails themselves are traces. Lets not get too nitpicky here, most LNT guidelines are common sense. Trying to argue against the merits of LNT isn't very constructive.
Ah... a voice of reason. Thank you.
i've never seen it. people who practice it, well that's the problem. they're just practicing. trace is everywhereExactly! Well put.
It is no good merely practicing it. We have to live it!
But how can we? Sustainability is sustainable. Everything else is not.
I am not arguing against the merits of LNT.
I am argiung against the premise.
It is delusional. It perpetuates the myth that we cannot once again be part of nature.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvWaD-NErlY
4eyedbuzzard
12-22-2007, 12:49
I am not arguing against the merits of LNT.
I am argiung against the premise.
It is delusional. It perpetuates the myth that we cannot once again be part of nature.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvWaD-NErlY
When have we not been part of nature?
When have we not been part of nature?
My Hummer (http://www.fuh2.com/)is 100% all-natural.
When have we not been part of nature?I agree.
Most western religions and philosophy wound have you believe otherwise however.
Ironically, hose that insist most strongly on soiling our nests seem to be the ones converting.
4eyedbuzzard
12-22-2007, 13:12
Which should all go without saying. Trails themselves are traces. Lets not get too nitpicky here, most LNT guidelines are common sense. Trying to argue against the merits of LNT isn't very constructive.
Not arguing against the merits. Arguing that some trace is inevitable if we are to use the trail for its intended purpose - recreation/enjoyment. The purpose of the trail isn't to maintain a wilderness area in isolation, but rather as a means to an end that we can enjoy/exploit. That means campfires, disturbing the soil with tents, shelters and privies, blazes, chainsaws, etc, etc, etc.
I agree, most LNT practices are common sense/respect for the land. But unfortunately there are some who will make checklists and procedures for something as simple as hiking in and camping out for a night in the woods. And THEIRS will be the only CORRECT way of practicing LNT. We've seen this in the "how to hike the AT" arena in the past, haven't we? I'd just like to avoid that whole scenario with LNT.
4eyedbuzzard
12-22-2007, 13:13
My Hummer (http://www.fuh2.com/)is 100% all-natural.
Yep. Nothing supernatural about it.;)
Lone Wolf
12-22-2007, 13:14
I agree, most LNT practices are common sense/respect for the land. But unfortunately there are some who will make checklists and procedures for something as simple as hiking in and camping out for a night in the woods. And THEIRS will be the only CORRECT way of practicing LNT. We've seen this in the "how to hike the AT" arena in the past, haven't we? I'd just like to avoid that whole scenario with LNT.
kinda like ALDHAs ESC. it doesn't really work
One of the reasoned critiques of LNT that I have seen in the past here at WB is that as a slogan in some ways it leaves more wriggle room than the older phrase, "Pack it In, Pack it Out." People who have heard the slogan, LNT, but not the details might bury their garbage, for instance, try to cover it up with dirt and other stuff so it's not obvious, and then say to themselves, "I've Left No Trace."
I've found that packing out used toilet paper is not as big a hassle as I would have thought. I fold over the used TP so that the mess is on the inside of the wad, put it in a zip-lock, and then dispose of it properly the next chance I get. My home trail, the Superior Hiking Trail, has pit toilets at all tent sites (and there are over 80 tent sites for a 205 mile trail, so you are usually not far from one) and the Superior Hiking Trail Association recommends leaving TP in the pit toilets. It's only when I'm caught short between latrines that I "pack out" that used TP. Since most AT shelters also have some kind of privy, and used TP can be left in "most" of those privies, the same method for packing out TP could be used.
I agree with 4 eyedbuzzard. Not only are these people delusional, they also suck the fun out of life. However, I think we do need to think about sustainability. Perhaps not everyday, perhaps not today, but eventually. Sure, there will always be change, and we need to be prepared for it. Well, we had better get ready to live more sustainably, because that change has got to be coming faster than we might think.
LNT is taken seriously by the same people who feel guilty about taking a shower because it uses heated water, and about having any lights on in the house because it's using up energy. I'll let these self-depreciating people alone... they're the same kind who have "no war for oil" bumper stickers (on their car) and feel like they're killing the Earth by going to the grocery store.
LNT isn't meant for them - they're crazy already. It's meant for the people who are absolutely hopeless, and would throw trash on the ground and cut down live trees for fires. It just tries to be as ridiculous as possible so that people who already don't have a brain won't have to think about being reasonable in the woods.
As for anyone who understands the first thing about hiking and camping (like most people on this forum here) - I don't think LNT is for us. If you have a brain and can form rational thoughts (i.e. "packing out used toilet paper is biologically unsound... I'll just bury it deep, away from a water source" like someone here said) then you should be able to use your intuition and make an intelligent call when you're out there.
- Sudoku
Better not to carry so much TP in the first place. Anyhow, there are many solutions, and the best solutions depend on where you are hiking. We don't need LNT. We need people to be more educated about sustainability and the environment in general. That I think is the real damage of rules like LNT. You don't have to think about them. I think its absolutelty pointless to walk a trail without thinking about the environment and our place in it.
kinda like ALDHAs ESC. it doesn't really work
Sorry, that's lame. You seem to be saying, if we can't be 100% successful, let's not even try. IMO, these programs are about awareness. And that's a good thing.
LNT is taken seriously by the same people who feel guilty about taking a shower because it uses heated water, and about having any lights on in the house because it's using up energy. I'll let these self-depreciating people alone... they're the same kind who have "no war for oil" bumper stickers (on their car) and feel like they're killing the Earth by going to the grocery store.
LNT isn't meant for them - they're crazy already. It's meant for the people who are absolutely hopeless, and would throw trash on the ground and cut down live trees for fires. It just tries to be as ridiculous as possible so that people who already don't have a brain won't have to think about being reasonable in the woods.
As for anyone who understands the first thing about hiking and camping (like most people on this forum here) - I don't think LNT is for us. If you have a brain and can form rational thoughts (i.e. "packing out used toilet paper is biologically unsound... I'll just bury it deep, away from a water source" like someone here said) then you should be able to use your intuition and make an intelligent call when you're out there.
- SudokuI think you are just burrying your head in the sand like everyone else, including the LNT people, and also people like myself that don't fit any one category. We all need to wake up in different ways. Changes are coming. We all agree that we need to adapt. We disagree on what we will need to adapt to. I believe we will need to adapt to more sustainable lifestyles.
Lone Wolf
12-22-2007, 13:30
Sorry, that's lame. You seem to be saying, if we can't be 100% successful, let's not even try. IMO, these programs are about awareness. And that's a good thing.
sorry, it's a fact. go to springer mtn. and ask every hiker starting if they know or heard of ESC. 1 in a thousand might know. there's no awareness cuz folks aren't aware it exists. hell, most people have never heard of ALDHA
Just my opinion, but if walking in the woods doesn't make us think about living more sustainably then I don't thing we are really walking in the woods. I think we are just walking through them. LNT isn't enough. The goal is for the trail to leave a trace on us.
warraghiyagey
12-22-2007, 13:35
Just my opinion, but if walking in the woods doesn't make us think about living more sustainably then I don't thing we are really walking in the woods. I think we are just walking through them. LNT isn't enough. The goal is for the trail to leave a trace on us.
Waxing eloquence. Nice work JAK.:)
Which should all go without saying. Trails themselves are traces.
Trails are durable surfaces. By walking on them you adhere to LNT principles. By staying at shelters, you adhere to LNT principles.
What if you go off-trail? Spread out and move with reasonable caution. Use common sense. Live your life.
sorry, it's a fact. go to springer mtn. and ask every hiker starting if they know or heard of ESC. 1 in a thousand might know. there's no awareness cuz folks aren't aware it exists
Well, in that case, it's hardly worth getting upset about, eh? ALDHA is a tiny organization to begin with, and this particular campaign of theirs just doesn't get the publcity it deserves. How many of your newbie thru-hikers at Springer have heard of ALDHA? "ESC" just isn't common knowledge. A lot of thru-hiker wannabes show up at Springer knowing next to nothing of the trail, and even less of its history.
That's a far cry from "LNT", which gets a lot more publicity. Just about every hiking book I own mentions it somewhere or other. Of course, not everyone who hikes reads books about hiking. :D
warraghiyagey
12-22-2007, 13:42
. . .
What if you go off-trail? Spread out and move with reasonable caution. Use common sense. Live your life.
Waxing eloquence II.:)
sorry, it's a fact. go to springer mtn. and ask every hiker starting if they know or heard of ESC. 1 in a thousand might know. there's no awareness cuz folks aren't aware it exists
Ignorance of the law does't get you off the hook if you break it. Of course, going against ESC and LNT isn't going to put you in jail but, it may be frowned upon by some of your peers, as well should be.
Anyway, what's your point, it's OK to trash the hostels, trail and backcoutry?
4eyedbuzzard
12-22-2007, 13:44
I agree.
Most western religions and philosophy wound have you believe otherwise however.
Ironically, hose that insist most strongly on soiling our nests seem to be the ones converting.
It seems to be the degree and type of impact caused by the recent human need to escape industrialized existance that is the problem, which ironically is the reason d'etre for the AT in the first place. We create a place to go to provide an illusion of wilderness, but tend to spoil it by our presence. Much like the rest of the earth.
Lone Wolf
12-22-2007, 13:46
Anyway, what's your point, it's OK to trash the hostels, trail and backcoutry?
the point. most people aren't aware of these "campaigns" but they sure are aware of the presidential campaigns
It seems to be the degree and type of impact caused by the recent human need to escape industrialized existance that is the problem, which ironically is the reason d'etre for the AT in the first place. We create a place to go to provide an illusion of wilderness, but tend to spoil it by our presence. Much like the rest of the earth.
There's good truth here. But my hope and observation is that at least some folks who spend time in the woods gain an appreciation for it, which they carry with them back in the "real world." And I believe that's what MacKaye and Avery felt, as well, and why the AT exists.
the point. most people aren't aware of these "campaigns" but they sure are aware of the presidential campaigns
Well, at one point smoking wasn't known as a hazard. A little education and peer pressure can help.
This is why the presence of ridgerunners is so crucial, as is the continued funding for such positions.
The GATC cold probably benefit from multiple RR's up near Springer in march and april. Thru-hikers should be embassabors and teachers of LNT as the trail is their home for 5-6 months, however the nature of their journey makes them very selfish. They never return to the same area, so trashing it or leaving it differently then they found it doesn't affect them much.
Then again, thru-hikers make up a small minority of the users on the AT. The ATC views groups, and weekenders as bigger threats to the trail than the thru's.
LNT doesn't have to be this idealistic theory that can't be followed through with. Sure some things can be interpreted and applied to different areas (as Mowgli says) but following the general guidelines isn't very difficult. It's part of a bigger problem in society where people simply don't care. It's the same folks that tear up trails on their ATV's, throw their litter on the sides of roads and drive big-honkin' wasteful vehicles. Buncha inconsiderates...
I taught LNT principles as a NOLS instructor. NOLS was the organization that created the official 7 LNT principles in the 60's under Paul Petzholt. BTW, the 7th principle, be respectful of others, went away in 2003. It was decided that if you adhere to the other principles, you would naturally be considerate of others. Which brings me to my point about LNT.
A HUGE part of the NOLS curriculum is the concept of "expedition behavior", how to get people to get along when hiking or camping in close quarters to each other for a month at a time. LNT is actually more an extension of expedition behavior than doing specifically the best thing for the actual environment. Preventing damage to the environment is a nice side effect though.
Think about it. Look at the principles. They are primarily designed to provide a more "pristine" appearance to people travelling in the backcountry than to specifically protect the backcountry. How many animals bury their feces? We don't worry about it. But when we pack lots of people into a tight area, poor pooping practices become a sanitary problem.
Be careful with fire. No kidding. Burning down a forest hurts both the land and others' experience. Fire rings in pristine areas lead others to decide to stay there, some of whom will likely be mungheads and mar the landscape.
If you look at LNT as a way to get along with others and protect the experience for all, you're truthfully getting the biggest reason LNT exists.
Now if you want me to pack out my used toilet paper, you're adversely impacting MY wilderness experience....... :mad:
4eyedbuzzard
12-22-2007, 13:57
Hikers who trash hostels and are general a-holes aren't going to change because of ESC, and they're not likely to practice the most basic principles of LNT, due to campaigns, peer pressure, or any other reason. Their trail ettiquette(or lack of) is simply an extension of their normal behavior pattern. They simply don't respect people or the environment they're in, and probably haven't since age 4. And for the most part, realistically all we can do is carry a small garbage bag and clean up after them.:mad:
I think you are just burrying your head in the sand like everyone else, including the LNT people, and also people like myself that don't fit any one category. We all need to wake up in different ways. Changes are coming. We all agree that we need to adapt. We disagree on what we will need to adapt to. I believe we will need to adapt to more sustainable lifestyles.
I certainly agree with you that we'll need to adapt to more sustainable lifestyles. That wasn't my point though - the point is there needs to be a line you can draw between leaving reasonable "traces" in all walks of life and never leaving any at all. Should you carry a dead pine branch behind you so you sweep away all your footprints? Should you pack out the ashes you produce when you have a small campfire in an established fire ring? Should you never camp anywhere any only use shelters?
I'm just saying everyone needs to be as smart as possible, and think real hard about what is an unavoidable impact (we are animals, too, after all) and what really is avoidable and unnessesary.
Could someone remind me what ESC is? I know I've seen it but it's true, it just doesn't get much publicity.
Hikers who trash hostels and are general a-holes aren't going to change because of ESC, and they're not likely to practice the most basic principles of LNT, due to campaigns, peer pressure, or any other reason. Their trail ettiquette(or lack of) is simply an extension of their normal behavior pattern. They simply don't respect people or the environment they're in, and probably haven't since age 4. And for the most part, realistically all we can do is carry a small garbage bag and clean up after them.:mad:
I think for the most part you're wrong. You can only trash so many hostels before word gets out. While peer pressure may not work for some it will work for many. The more you hikers you have criticizing others unruly behavior the more they learn what's inappropriate.
"If you ever travel back in time, don't step on anything because even the tiniest change can alter the future in ways you can't imagine. - Abe Simpson"
Your tag line reminds me of that short story, "Sound of Thunder" by Ray Bradbury. The way some folks aproach hiking and "Leave No Trace" always makes me think of it. It is very interesting to study how humanity has dealt with nature throughout the ages. And even today how people that might behave very similarly can still think so differently, or the other way around. Very interesting thread. I will have to think some more about what this means and what the future might bring.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnLZjBnVm38
Could someone remind me what ESC is? I know I've seen it but it's true, it just doesn't get much publicity.
It's an ALDHA thing, Endangered Species Campaign. http://www.aldha.org/ethics.htm
You can find posters at most AT hostels
Should you carry a dead pine branch behind you so you sweep away all your footprints? Should you pack out the ashes you produce when you have a small campfire in an established fire ring? Should you never camp anywhere any only use shelters?
Strawman argument. Where exactly is it written that LNT means abandonment of common sense? :-?
"All right," Travis continued, "say we accidentally kill one mouse here. That means all the future families of this one particular mouse are destroyed, right?"
"Right"
"And all the families of the families of the families of that one mouse! With a stamp of your foot, you annihilate first one, then a dozen, then a thousand, a million, a billion possible mice!"
"So they're dead," said Eckels. "So what?"
"So what?" Travis snorted quietly. "Well, what about the foxes that'll need those mice to survive? For want of ten mice, a fox dies. For want of ten foxes a lion starves. For want of a lion, all manner of insects, vultures, infinite billions of life forms are thrown into chaos and destruction. Eventually it all boils down to this: fifty-nine million years later, a caveman, one of a dozen on the entire world, goes hunting wild boar or saber-toothed tiger for food. But you, friend, have stepped on all the tigers in that region. By stepping on one single mouse. So the caveman starves. And the caveman, please note, is not just any expendable man, no! He is an entire future nation. From his loins would have sprung ten sons. From their loins one hundred sons, and thus onward to a civilization. Destroy this one man, and you destroy a race, a people, an entire history of life. It is comparable to slaying some of Adam's grandchildren. The stomp of your foot, on one mouse, could start an earthquake, the effects of which could shake our earth and destinies down through Time, to their very foundations. With the death of that one caveman, a billion others yet unborn are throttled in the womb. Perhaps Rome never rises on its seven hills. Perhaps Europe is forever a dark forest, and only Asia waxes healthy and teeming. Step on a mouse and you crush the Pyramids. Step on a mouse and you leave your print, like a Grand Canyon, across Eternity. Queen Elizabeth might never be born, Washington might not cross the Delaware, there might never be a United States at all. So be careful. Stay on the Path. Never step off!"
:D
Should you carry a dead pine branch behind you so you sweep away all your footprints? Should you pack out the ashes you produce when you have a small campfire in an established fire ring? Should you never camp anywhere any only use shelters?
Strawman argument. Where exactly is it written that LNT means abandonment of common sense? :-?
Apparently he didn't read the guidelelines...
By the way the simple "Pack it in, Pack it out" rule hasn't been completely abandoned, It can still be found at most trail heads.
Ray Bradbury told an awesome story, but he also wrote in awesome metaphors.
"So be careful. Stay on the Path. Never step off!" makes for both.
"Leave No Trace" is a metaphor, as is "Pack in. Pack Out."
The Trail itself is a ancient metaphor for our path through life.
We have to be very careful about the metaphors we choose to allow people to impose on us.
There sure is a great deal of fuss here about toilet paper, perhaps understandably so. Tissue paper composts, doesn't it?
It could be burned in the cat hole where burning could be done safely and it's permitted if it would actually make any difference.
Many have discovered certain kinds of green leaves function as a good substitute. I have found shade leaves of the red (black) oak group, black, sugar and striped maple leaves and hobblebush leaves to be a few of the better alternatives.
Just don't strip the trees clean of their leaves. Walk about as you gather a handful. I'm not talking about gathering leaves near shelters, but rather where one might venture off the A.T. to answer nature's call or camp in areas not receiving much traffic.
I'm not really comfortable taking issue with LNT. I would hope this thread would be used to promote it, but this particular rule may be overkill in many areas on the A.T. or be enough to cause some to stop reading or reject LNT altogether.
I would image also that some brands of TP are better than others eh.
My preference is maple and birch leaves. ;)
Apparently he didn't read the guidelelines...
It's an ALDHA thing, Endangered Species Campaign. http://www.aldha.org/ethics.htm
You can find posters at most AT hostels
Oh, I remember that... it's Endangered *Services* Campaign, right? Yeah, those are good... important.
I remember that Ray Bradbury story, that was a cool one. Great message.
I didn't say that LNT suggested that you do those examples I drew up, I was only comparing extreme examples of not leaving any trace with being able to decide for yourself what instances of leaving a trace *are* okay (for example, toilet paper buried 6in deep - a lot of people here are agreeing that they find that to be a tolerable exception to make). Don't misconstrue what I was saying.
Since you felt like critizing me... yes, I have read the guidelines. Have you? The suggestions for how to prepare for and clean up after a campfire are pretty lengthy and involved - some of which DO involve packing out ashes. LNT also says not to wear bright clothing. I think it's important to know LNT, but it's even more important to use your head. If I'm hiking in PA in November you can bet I'm going to be wearing obnoxious colors. I never advocated anything you said I was - I'm just saying we should all think really hard about what does make sense and what does leave a preventable impact.
My preference is maple and birch leaves. ;)
Birch leaves? Try mountain-ash and elderberry, they're larger.:-?
True, but I use the maple and birch leaves together.
The wintergreen in the birch is for medicinal purposes. :D
No, I haven't really thought that much about it. I've always just grabbed what handy. ;)
Meaning Of Life (Part III)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZWRe9DFYZ8&feature=related
Oops. Wrong thread.
That was for the Nelson Mandela Thread, aka how Minesota Smith saved Western Civilization.
Can't exactly have LNT warfare can we now. Wouldn't be cricket.
Monty Python, Flower of Scotland, cricket ...LNT ? British "culture" is everywhere you look here today :p
Yeah, the British were never that big on LNT it would seem. :p
'fraid not.....
And many that come across morris dancing can't seem to shift the memory of it no matter how hard they try... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IJDE8Xm-12I :D
River Runner
12-22-2007, 15:08
I taught LNT principles as a NOLS instructor. NOLS was the organization that created the official 7 LNT principles in the 60's under Paul Petzholt. BTW, the 7th principle, be respectful of others, went away in 2003. It was decided that if you adhere to the other principles, you would naturally be considerate of others.
Now if you want me to pack out my used toilet paper, you're adversely impacting MY wilderness experience....... :mad:
Huh? Why does Leave No Trace have the 7th principle still on their website:
http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles.php
It might be worded a tad differently "Be Considerate of Other Visitors" but it's still there.
Along with this -
Pack out toilet paper and hygiene products.
4eyedbuzzard
12-22-2007, 15:08
I think for the most part you're wrong. You can only trash so many hostels before word gets out. While peer pressure may not work for some it will work for many. The more you hikers you have criticizing others unruly behavior the more they learn what's inappropriate.
Why ANY adult should have to be reminded to behave civilly is beyond me. If someone trashes a hostel, they should be arrested, prosecuted and be held liable for damages. 99% of hikers are undoubtably very respectful by nature. I think their time would be better spent running the a-holes off the trail alltogether rather than trying to accomplish what their parents couldn't or failed to do prior to them reaching adulthood. Trip 'em with a hiking pole down a ravine. I've got no time or patience for 'em.
If we had more folks like 4eyedbuzzard carrying hiking poles we wouldn't need LNT, or tasers. :D
Since you felt like critizing me... yes, I have read the guidelines. Have you? The suggestions for how to prepare for and clean up after a campfire are pretty lengthy and involved - some of which DO involve packing out ashes. LNT also says not to wear bright clothing. I think it's important to know LNT, but it's even more important to use your head. If I'm hiking in PA in November you can bet I'm going to be wearing obnoxious colors. I never advocated anything you said I was - I'm just saying we should all think really hard about what does make sense and what does leave a preventable impact.
Relax dude. I answered your question about ESC. You're the one with the silly notion of covering your tracks with a pine branch. I've stated before these are guidelines and that common sense is prerequisite. (wearing orange in hunting season). What I didn't see was what you thought.
BTW, I haven't had a campfire outside a established fire ring in years. Added: I mean the metal ones. Otherwise I wouldn't have camp fires unless it was an emergancy
PS Did you thru-hike this year?
Trip 'em with a hiking pole down a ravine. I've got no time or patience for 'em.
Or force them to watch Morris dancing.
'fraid not.....
And many that come across morris dancing can't seem to shift the memory of it no matter how hard they try... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IJDE8Xm-12I :DThat was scary.
Seriously though, what's it like on the UK trails w.r.t LNT rules and enforcement.
Does common sense pretty much rule the day, or do you have to rely heavily on crotchety old men and ladies with canes, that aren't afraid to use them. :D
Lone Wolf
12-22-2007, 15:18
i don't use established fire rings. they're disgusting. i start new ones
i don't use established fire rings. they're disgusting. i start new onesSo do I. How do you choose a suitable site?
warraghiyagey
12-22-2007, 15:21
So do I. How do you choose a suitable site?
I'm guessing he finds a good clearing in the middle of a shelter floor.:p :)
Why ANY adult should have to be reminded to behave civilly is beyond me. If someone trashes a hostel, they should be arrested, prosecuted and be held liable for damages. 99% of hikers are undoubtably very respectful by nature. I think their time would be better spent running the a-holes off the trail alltogether rather than trying to accomplish what their parents couldn't or failed to do prior to them reaching adulthood. Trip 'em with a hiking pole down a ravine. I've got no time or patience for 'em.
Trashing hostels doesn't necessarily break laws but common decency, such as cleaning up after yourself. Getting into how someone was raised is a whole other topic.
i don't use established fire rings. they're disgusting. i start new ones
You're a real idiot sometimes... :rolleyes:
River Runner
12-22-2007, 15:24
LNT is not about telling people they way it is in black & white. There are exceptions, as in the case of cutting down live trees. Someone suggested LNT advises to carry out your TP. That's not actually true. In some areas, carrying out your waste is required. Mt. Whitney comes to mind. In other areas it is suggested as an option. For instance, some of the traveling trainers demonstrate the poop tube. But they never tell you that you have to do that. It's an ongoing dialog.
It used to be common for people to trench around their tent. And bury trash in the woods. And litter. Those practices are starting to disappear. Entire generations of Boy Scouts are growing up with LNT ingrained in them. (The Boy Scouts does more with LNT than any other group.) As we become collectively aware of ways that we can lessen our impact on the land, future generations will benefit by being able to experience wild places that are not impaired or permanently scarred, or impaired to a lesser degree than they would be if LNT was not around. That's a good thing IMO.
When trained ideally, I agree that the principles are presented as education and choices. However, LNT does advise to pack out toilet paper - see above, taken directly from the website.
While not technically saying you "have to" they also advise to avoid bright colors -
"Bright clothing and equipment, such as tents can be seen for long distances are discouraged. Especially in open natural areas, colors such as day-glow yellow are disturbing and contribute to a crowded feeling; choose earth-toned colors (ie. browns and greens) to lessen visual impacts."
I'm by no means against "Leave No Trace", actually I am a Leave No Trace facilitator. I do personally think they are now addressing so many areas, down to advising on not using trekking poles & wearing bright colors that they are turning a lot of people off on what is basically a good thing. Just my opinion, but I think it's best to address the large issues, such as packing out your trash or being careful with fire, which I think all here pretty much agree are important. The smaller issues such as packing out TP or color choices could best be presented as 'think about this' rather than 'avoid this' or 'do this'.
I do personally think they are now addressing so many areas, down to advising on not using trekking poles.
Where did you see that?
Only UK trail I know is the Coastal Path 'round Cornwall and Devon. Very civilized. Paved in places. A town or a pub every few miles. Magnificent views. Highly recommend it.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com/coastal_path.jpg
Since you felt like critizing me... yes, I have read the guidelines. Have you? The suggestions for how to prepare for and clean up after a campfire are pretty lengthy and involved - some of which DO involve packing out ashes.
And where did you read that?
warraghiyagey
12-22-2007, 15:35
And where did you read that?
Fur-Fish and Game?????
:D
Largely, commonsense rules the day - as it should.
Give the size of the country there are a lot of day hikers and as you might expect, the more accessible the area then it will attract more 'casual' visitors. For example, those that will drive to the bottom of a hill, park on the side of the road and stumble up the last mile to the top of the hill in their trainers (or sneakers if you prefer); and it seems that these are the people that will treat an area with least respect - though to be fair most people will stuff their rubbish into their bag and take it home with them.
Walkers, by and large, take the attitude of 'I don't want to walk through your cr*p, I won't leave my cr*p around but do expect to be challenged if you mistreat the place'
There are some areas that are under the care of the National Trust which will construct 'sympathetic' tracks out of local stone so that walkers and mountain-bikers in popular areas can get follow their hearts without doing much damage to the countryside
...and in a bizarre piece of synchronicity, iTunes has just reached a version of Hank's 'Setting The Woods On Fire' :banana
Lone Wolf
12-22-2007, 15:42
So do I. How do you choose a suitable site?
any place that's virgin. kinda trample it down. put up your tent, find some rocks, make a ring then start rippin' dead branches off trees and make a big 'ol white man blaze
And where did you read that?
http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_5.php
Burn all wood to white ash, grind small coals to ash between your gloved hands, thoroughly soak with water, and scatter the remains over a large area away from camp. Ashes may have to be packed out in river corridors.
Replace soil where you found it when cleaning up a mound or pan fire.
Relax dude. I answered your question about ESC. You're the one with the silly notion of covering your tracks with a pine branch. I've stated before these are guidelines and that common sense is prerequisite. (wearing orange in hunting season). What I didn't see was what you thought.
BTW, I haven't had a campfire outside a established fire ring in years. Added: I mean the metal ones. Otherwise I wouldn't have camp fires unless it was an emergancy
PS Did you thru-hike this year?
For the third time... I never advocated covering tracks with a pine branch, I raised the point as something that *does* reduce your "trace" but would be ridiculous to actually do. I mentioned that as part of my point that not everything that reduces your trace makes sense. How about you lay off that and stop changing the context?
I didn't say you *have* had a fire ring. I don't like fires much, myself. I was talking about LNT and how it *can* be extreme or a little silly. I wasn't talking about you. You're an impressive character. I wouldn't dare talk about you as a hiker. This is another example of what my point is: I think you are very capable of knowing what is leaving a bad trace and what is a reasonable trace (leaving footprints, leaving occational ashes, camping on a durable surface that won't suffer).
Yes - Apr 11 to Oct 17.
We use ashphalt here in New Brunswick in sometimes in sensitive areas, and even construct conventional bridges with massive equipment and massive ammounts of steel and concrete. It's just another project sometimes when the government and contractors step in to lend a hand. I wish we would take the time and expense to be more 'sympathetic' as you say. I've hiked on some National Trust sites in the UK. Very nicely done, but even most of your towns are better done than most of our trails here in Canada.
Here is an example of a trail here which does some things right and some things wrong:
http://www.fundytrailparkway.com/welcome.htm
Well, I've had enough fun here for the time being. Time to go down stairs a play some Black Jack (http://ipbiloxi.com/main.htm).
Lone Wolf
12-22-2007, 15:47
Well, I've had enough fun here for the time being. Time to go down stairs a play some Black Jack (http://ipbiloxi.com/main.htm).
a fool and his money...
why not send the money you're gonna loose gambling to the LNT organization
any place that's virgin. kinda trample it down. put up your tent, find some rocks, make a ring then start rippin' dead branches off trees and make a big 'ol white man blazeI do much the same here, but I try and make a little ol' red man's blaze and sit a bit closer, and warmer. ;)
http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_5.php
Burn all wood to white ash, grind small coals to ash between your gloved hands, thoroughly soak with water, and scatter the remains over a large area away from camp. Ashes may have to be packed out in river corridors.
Talk about taking things out of context in your previous post... :rolleyes:
Bye now...
My folks have always tried to be a little more stealthy. Helps when you're off stealing cattle and sheep. :)
Here is an example of a trail here which does some things right and some things wrong: http://www.fundytrailparkway.com/welcome.htm
My own pictures of this area don't show the path but here is a link found on Google which shows the path http://www.twoatlarge.com/walks/derwent_edge_0906/index.html
Some may recoil in horror but if this means that people can freely get out of the towns and cities and enjoy the area and preserve it as best they can then it's a worthy compromise. Part of the price of being a small island I'm afraid.
I don't get that packing out ashed bit at all. Pack them out to where?
Do they not provide any guidelines on where these ashes might do some good?
Such utterly misguided nonsense. Delusional. Mindless.
warraghiyagey
12-22-2007, 15:55
I do much the same here, but I try and make a little ol' red man's blaze and sit a bit closer, and warmer. ;)
:sun :sun :sun :sun The sacred circle.
My own pictures of this area don't show the path but here is a link found on Google which shows the path http://www.twoatlarge.com/walks/derwent_edge_0906/index.html
Some may recoil in horror but if this means that people can freely get out of the towns and cities and enjoy the area and preserve it as best they can then it's a worthy compromise. Part of the price of being a small island I'm afraid.Beautifully done.
I like how everything is done on a more human scale, with human hands using natural materials.
warraghiyagey
12-22-2007, 15:58
I don't get that packing out ashed bit at all. Pack them out to where?
Do they not provide any guidelines on where these ashes might do some good?
Such utterly misguided nonsense. Delusional. Mindless.
And stupid. You forgot to add that.;)
Thanks. That would sound better and help with the pagination also. :D
I don't get that packing out ashed bit at all. Pack them out to where?
Do they not provide any guidelines on where these ashes might do some good?
Such utterly misguided nonsense. Delusional. Mindless. Stupid.
Such utterly misguided nonsense. Delusional. Mindless. Stupid.
Just another day on Whiteblaze. :D
dessertrat
12-22-2007, 16:38
Can anyone prove to me that some ashes on the forest floor are harmful to the environment to the extent that you should pack them out?
No? I didn't think so.
LNT seems to have too much to do with sensibility, and not enough to do with sense.
warraghiyagey
12-22-2007, 17:12
Can anyone prove to me that some ashes on the forest floor are harmful to the environment to the extent that you should pack them out?
No? I didn't think so.
Yes, and unless you're planning to carry them the rest of your life then they are going to land on the earth somewhere.
I think we are all in agreement on that one. :)
Huh? Why does Leave No Trace have the 7th principle still on their website:
http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles.php
It might be worded a tad differently "Be Considerate of Other Visitors" but it's still there.
Along with this -
Pack out toilet paper and hygiene products.
Perhaps they added the 7th principle back again after enough folks complained and told them it was a foolish move. I remember the debate clearly before we took out first course out in '03, and it was around this time I began to debate if the folks with the "official" LNT commission were losing their grip on reality.
On a tangent, did you know that the standard TP on a NOLS wilderness course is "natural TP"? Western pine cones, snow, etc. Well, neither do the students who go out on courses until after they are dropped off in the backcountry. If they did, many would never beg mom and dad to drop 3 grand for a course. Instructors always carried a roll in case a student came down with severe GI issues, but we almost always came back with a full roll.
Does burying toilet paper harm the land. No. It looks unsightly if it is dug up by scavengers of course, but it does biodegrade. In the wet areas of the east and in the mountains where snowpack predominates, I find the idea of carrying out used TP to be absolutely preposterous. Adding still more paper, complete with a plastic wrapping, to our landfills seems anything BUT enviro-friendly. But as I said earlier, LNT is more about affecting others' perception and experience in the outdoors than about protecting the land.
Bearpaw,
You are more apt to take a moderate view than myself. In terms of affecting perception,
do you think the LNT needs to be revised to be more in alignment with sustainability in general, rather than being too focused on preservation specifically?
warraghiyagey
12-22-2007, 17:37
People seem to be stuck on whether or not LNT is some sort of exalted commandment. It is a concept. A guideline. And can only be effective on an individual basis - as with any concept as such.
Talk about taking things out of context in your previous post... :rolleyes:
Bye now...
Sudoku, if I made a mistake not reading your post correctly, fine I apoligize but I didn't see anywhere I started name calling to the third degree such as you did in a private message. You have a problem with me, let's hear it in public. We'll see who's being the "prick".
Later...
warraghiyagey
12-22-2007, 17:52
When PMs go bad.
Than the trail should be unblazed.
River Runner
12-22-2007, 19:11
Where did you see that?
A Handout in the Leave No Trace Trainers Guide. It doesn't seem to be anywhere on line, so maybe they are backing down on that.
Bearpaw,
You are more apt to take a moderate view than myself. In terms of affecting perception,
do you think the LNT needs to be revised to be more in alignment with sustainability in general, rather than being too focused on preservation specifically?
Somebody else pointedly out earlier in this thread that folks who really focus on sustainability in their every day lives often don't really need much guidance when they enter the backcountry. It comes naturally. I think LNT needs to be distilled into a handful of "silver guidelines" for folks who perhaps don't think about their impact on others any where, front or backcountry.
As for sustainability, I offer a few thoughts to teachers when I teach an ecology/conservation workshop for a college here in Nashville. I advise them to discuss ideas with their students that ask three questions.
1) Will the average person reasonably do what you suggest?
2) Will it really help conserve resources?
3) Can it save money?
If you can answer all three of these with a yes, then it's something they ought to push. If LOTS of people will do something, it can make a significant difference in the world. Look for plastic soda bottles or aluminum cans in places like Maine or Michigan or Vermont in landfills or along the side of the road. You won't see many compared to Tennessee. Why? They're worth 5-15 cents a piece (that you pay when you buy the soda or beer). In Tennessee, they cost more to collect and drive to a recycling center than they will usually bring upon redemption.
Who was the greatest environmentalist in most kids' lives? Mom. Why? Because she aggressively told you to "turn off that light', "close that door", and "stop trying to heat up the neighborhood". She did it to save money, but she was also saving the planet a dime at a time.
Why spend a fortune on a 13-year-first suit when you get one at Goodwill, get it tailored a bit and look just as nice? Reuse works if you're cheap enough and smart enough to save money at it.
People complain bitterly about capitalism destroying the planet, but when petroleum becomes scarce enough, supply and demand will take care of overuse at the gas pump, thermostat, and so forth. Hopefully, citizens will be able to jar the right people into action before this becomes a crisis. We're already seeing $3 a gallon gas here in the States, a pittance compared to Japan, but enough to get folks interested in higher gas mileage vehicles.
If you want to change the world, my thought is to offer real alternatives that the MASSES will take part in. Telling kids they're evil because they don't pack out their TP or because they eat fast food from cardboard container (which is renewable BTW) only serves to make those with some really good ideas look like extremists who have no concept of reality.
I would agree with that. I am surprised that the students entering university today are not more idealistic. I though all people were at that age, but I guess it goes in cycles. Kids today need something that will work. To them, getting a degree to get a job so that they can buy an SUV and a large house works. They need an alternative that works. Nobody seems to be teaching anyone what sustainability actually means.
Can anyone prove to me that some ashes on the forest floor are harmful to the environment to the extent that you should pack them out?
No? I didn't think so.
If you're talking about LNT guidelines you may want to rephrase that question, the guideline it says *some* river corridors. On a forest floor, no. On a river, I suppose I'll know when I get there.
I would agree with that. I am surprised that the students entering university today are not more idealistic. I though all people were at that age, but I guess it goes in cycles. Kids today need something that will work. To them, getting a degree to get a job so that they can buy an SUV and a large house works. They need an alternative that works. Nobody seems to be teaching anyone what sustainability actually means.
Well, the workshop I teach is for teachers of k-8 graders. Many of the students of the workshop are still undergrads or graduate students. My purpose is to help them reach out to an inner city student who has little or no exposure to the natural world outside downtown Nashville. The thing I try to help them avoid is the preaching approach.
My regular teaching job is with a handful of behaviorally challenged 7th graders who have all been kicked out of their regular schools. We faithfully recycle paper, plastic bottles and aluminum cans throughout the course of the year. At year's end, we have a pizza party with the proceeds. It helps my students put into perspective that by walking an extra few feet to the recycling box instead of the trash can, they can give back (and maybe get a little something back too).
4eyedbuzzard
12-22-2007, 23:52
Trashing hostels doesn't necessarily break laws but common decency, such as cleaning up after yourself. Getting into how someone was raised is a whole other topic.
Most hikers put forth the effort to learn proper skills and trail etiquette. LNT is for the most part a voluntary compliance situation. But there is a small element that will never be considerate enough of the rights of others to practice LNT or learn about trail etiquette. They simply don't respect the property(hostel trashing) or rights(peaceful enjoyment) of others. And that attitude and behavior usually stems from very early on in life. Which is also why I don't think you'll ever change them.
4eyedbuzzard
12-23-2007, 00:02
If we had more folks like 4eyedbuzzard carrying hiking poles we wouldn't need LNT, or tasers. :D
Not that I've ever pushed anyone down a ravine - YET!
'Cause I have been tempted. I just don't buy into hikers being ignorant of the 90% of LNT that is just basic common sense, respect for others, and personal responsibility. Maybe I'm just getting the Christmas crankiness. I'm just tired of every easily understood rule for living or doing something becoming a GD circle jerk with committees, pamphlets, programs, etc.
Just leave the GD woods as close to possible to the way it was before you walked through it and get on with life.:sun
ChinMusic
12-23-2007, 00:05
Good Lord, 7 PAGES on this?
Can't we all just agree to try and not make a "mess"?
4eyedbuzzard
12-23-2007, 00:17
All I Ever Really Needed to Know I Learned in Kindergarten
~by Robert Fulgham~
Most of what I really need to know about how to live, and what to do, and how to be, I learned in Kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sandbox at nursery school.
These are the things I learned: Share everything. Play fair. Don't hit people. Put things back where you found them. Clean up your own mess. Don't take things that aren't yours. Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody. Wash your hands before you eat. Flush. Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you. Live a balanced life. Learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work some every day.
Take a nap every afternoon. When you go out into the world, watch for traffic, hold hands, and stick together. Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the plastic cup. The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the plastic cup ~ they all die. So do we.
And then remember the book about Dick and Jane and the first word you learned, the biggest word of all: LOOK. Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation, ecology and politics and sane living.
Think of what a better world it would be if we all ~the whole world had cookies and milk about 3 o'clock every afternoon and then lay down with our blankets for a nap. Or if we had a basic policy in our nation and other nations to always put things back where we found them and clean up our own messes. And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out into the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.
berninbush
12-23-2007, 01:12
Why spend a fortune on a 13-year-first suit when you get one at Goodwill, get it tailored a bit and look just as nice? Reuse works if you're cheap enough and smart enough to save money at it.
I'm an employee of a Goodwill affiliate and I'm happy to see the environmental side of our work recognized. :) Although Goodwill's primary mission is human services (helping people find and keep jobs), we recognize that we have a positive environmental impact too by keeping stuff out of landfills. The vast majority of donations to us are either sold in our thift stores or recycled. We send as little as possible to landfills because we actually have to pay for the landfill space. (That's why Goodwill might actually refuse your contribution if it's something that can't be sold/ recycled.)
As far as Leave No Trace goes, I think it's as much about "marketing" or "public relations" as anything. Experienced outdoors people already know the principles... the whole point of having a catchy slogan is to train people who don't get out much how they should behave in the woods. And for that purpose, I think "Carry In - Carry Out" works better. Yes, it's less comprehensive, but it makes a lot of sense without a page full of explanation and it prevents the worst of the abuses that inexperienced hikers would be likely to commit. Littering is probably a much bigger issue for the environment than how big your campfire is, for instance, unless someone's cutting down whole trees to burn or something like that!
In other words, if you're going to send a newbie into the woods with one thing in mind, I think the "Carry In - Carry Out" phrase is the way to go. If you've got time to say more, you can make some of the other suggestions to minimize impact... but I also think you can overwhelm someone with too many "suggestions" to the point where they just disregard the whole thing. I believe conservationists would be wise to look at that LNT list, pick the five most important, and limit their presentation to the general public to that.
Javasanctum
12-23-2007, 01:12
All I Ever Really Needed to Know I Learned in Kindergarten
~by Robert Fulgham~
Most of what I really need to know about how to live, and what to do, and how to be, I learned in Kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sandbox at nursery school.
These are the things I learned: Share everything. Play fair. Don't hit people. Put things back where you found them. Clean up your own mess. Don't take things that aren't yours. Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody. Wash your hands before you eat. Flush. Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you. Live a balanced life. Learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work some every day.
Take a nap every afternoon. When you go out into the world, watch for traffic, hold hands, and stick together. Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the plastic cup. The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the plastic cup ~ they all die. So do we.
And then remember the book about Dick and Jane and the first word you learned, the biggest word of all: LOOK. Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation, ecology and politics and sane living.
Think of what a better world it would be if we all ~the whole world had cookies and milk about 3 o'clock every afternoon and then lay down with our blankets for a nap. Or if we had a basic policy in our nation and other nations to always put things back where we found them and clean up our own messes. And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out into the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.
Well said 4eyedbuzzard and enough. This thread is spent now.
In other words, if you're going to send a newbie into the woods with one thing in mind, I think the "Carry In - Carry Out" phrase is the way to go. If you've got time to say more, you can make some of the other suggestions to minimize impact... but I also think you can overwhelm someone with too many "suggestions" to the point where they just disregard the whole thing. I believe conservationists would be wise to look at that LNT list, pick the five most important, and limit their presentation to the general public to that.
If a newie can't get beyond "carry in, carry out" and comprehend a page or two of guidelines that's pretty sad. When do they learn to carry a map and compass and not to get lost in the woods? After a failed cell phone call?
River Runner
12-23-2007, 05:08
A Handout in the Leave No Trace Trainers Guide. It doesn't seem to be anywhere on line, so maybe they are backing down on that.
After looking through some of my materials, I did find a section on Trekking Pole use in the Southeast Leave No Trace Skills & Ethics booklet (page 9).
"If you carry a trekking pole, invest in a rubber tip to mitigate its impact. Long, pointed tips perforate and loosen moist organic soils and can accelerate problems with muddiness and erosion. Carbon points can permanently scar bedrock. Some sections of the Appalachian Trail and other popular trails look like they've had a garden tiller run down both sides! Use poles sparingly to protect yourself from falls or to support your ankles or knees."
The Northeast Mountains Skills & Ethics Booklet has a similar section on page 8.
"If you are using trekking poles, use them only to protect yourself from falls or to sulpport your ankles or knees." It goes on to repeat the information about erosion & scarring rocks, then lists "damage to trailside vegetation and soils", and ends with "You can avoid or minimize these impacts by removing baskets from poles and using rubber, instead of steel tips."
It also goes on about ice axes and crampons, saying in part, that while the tools are important for safe travel on snow and ice, they can cause damage when the ice thins to reveal rock and soil. "To minimize impact, use ice axes and crampons on trails only when needed. Or use restraint. Avoid fragile trail conditions and return when the ice and snow have given way to secure footing."
CoyoteWhips
12-23-2007, 08:35
God: Behold, I give you the Twenty Commandments!
Moses: Twenty! Oh, Lord, that's way too many. Nobody will follow any of them if you make it too complicated.
God: Oh, well, which ones do you think I should leave off?
Moses: Well, that one about littering, really, we're out in the wilderness. Who'll even notice...
If a newie can't get beyond "carry in, carry out" and comprehend a page or two of guidelines that's pretty sad. When do they learn to carry a map and compass and not to get lost in the woods? After a failed cell phone call?
Certainly important things to know. But they won't be learned with a slogan that makes no sense. When I wandered through the woods on one of our land trust trails my snowshoes left traces in the snow. I walked on a "trace," i.e. the trail I helped build so that people could more easily enjoy the woods -- and incidentally reduce the trace people would leave if we had encouraged multiple trails.
Leave no trace has become a business. It's technically illegal to use the words without paying someone money. Big groups using the slogan have been threatened with copyright infringement if they don't join.
Adherents mean well, but their message is mostly heard by the choir. The average beginning hiker neither knows nor cares about the message. They look behind themselves and see prints in the mud. "Hmm traces," they say. "well, there's nothing I can do about it." That's probably the last time they think about "Leave no trace. "
As a result trails and shelters are getting dirtier, not cleaner. A simple "carry in, carry out" message requires no thought, no elaborate manuals, no expensive classes. It simply works, or used to before the message got mixed up with gobbledegook.
In his final years I got to know Paul Petzoldt, who coined "Leave no trace" in the early 70s and taught its principles. I first heard his name and message when the Wall Street Journal parodied his message with a front page story about strange new hikers drinking their dish water.
Paul, who as a teenager had pioneered technical climbs in the Grand Tetons, wisely abandoned the phrase a vew years later, recognizing it was an impossible goal and thus meaningless to most outdoor people.
He continued to teach wise outdoor techniques, running youth programs in Maine until his death at 90 plus.
Weary
berninbush
12-23-2007, 10:25
Adherents mean well, but their message is mostly heard by the choir. The average beginning hiker neither knows nor cares about the message. They look behind themselves and see prints in the mud. "Hmm traces," they say. "well, there's nothing I can do about it." That's probably the last time they think about "Leave no trace. "
Thanks weary, that's what I was trying to say. If you set a standard people consider a challenge, they may rise to it. If you set a standard they perceive as impossible, they're more likely to ignore it. Human psychology.
I'm a fairly inexperienced hiker, and when I read the "leave no trace" list I tend to feel confused and depressed. That business about picking a campsite, for example... how'm I supposed to tell if an area is "never camped" or "impacts just beginning" or "an established campsite" or "camped out"? I have enough trouble just finding a place to set up my tent where it won't get holes poked in the bottom. More experienced hikers may scoff at me, but that list is "information overload" for me and some of it I'm not even sure how to interpret.
It would be helpful to me if someone would separate out the "don't do this because it really harms the environment" parts from "don't do this because you might annoy another hiker" parts. For example, I suspect that throwing plastic food wrappers on the ground falls into the former category (because you might make wildlife sick and/or teach them that the trail = food) while burying toilet paper falls into the latter (it looks ugly if it re-appears, but it's biodegradable). The distinction may seem obvious to a lot of you, but it's really not to me. If I know WHY I shouldn't do something, and I can see it's an important reason, I'm more likely to comply.
And I think it would be wiser if conservation groups would concentrate on the "important" points for the general public, and progress to the others once somebody has become interested/ involved in outdoor activity. Throwing the whole list at a newbie runs the real risk that they will either ignore the whole thing, or pack up and go home in discouragement.
The average beginning hiker neither knows nor cares about the message. They look behind themselves and see prints in the mud. "Hmm traces," they say. "well, there's nothing I can do about it." That's probably the last time they think about "Leave no trace. "
Must be how how they came up with the phrase, "Dumber than dirt" :rolleyes: How would they ever get through the 10 essentials?
Well, the workshop I teach is for teachers of k-8 graders. Many of the students of the workshop are still undergrads or graduate students. My purpose is to help them reach out to an inner city student who has little or no exposure to the natural world outside downtown Nashville. The thing I try to help them avoid is the preaching approach.
My regular teaching job is with a handful of behaviorally challenged 7th graders who have all been kicked out of their regular schools. We faithfully recycle paper, plastic bottles and aluminum cans throughout the course of the year. At year's end, we have a pizza party with the proceeds. It helps my students put into perspective that by walking an extra few feet to the recycling box instead of the trash can, they can give back (and maybe get a little something back too).That sounds great. I'm into the non-judging thing, most of the time. ;)
What I meant was, while always teaching rules or best practices, I wonder if we sometimes overlook the concept. We used to focus on conserving limited resources and reducing garbage, which is a bit tiresome because it seems like it must inevitably fail, that things will inevitably run out, or pile up. If we teach the concept of sustainability I think it is actually very hopeful, and enlightening. People are then far more likely to discover best practices for themselves, and live them rather than just practice them as L.Wolf put it.
This is just one definition of sustainability. It is unfortunately in the form of rules. Perhaps we could get away from that somehow, but I don't think the rules are written in a way which is too obtrusive. They are more like the laws of thermodynamics, and they are somewhat based upon them. Perhaps I will start a new thread to see if people can come up with a simple definition of sustainability which might be used in place of the old 'Leave No Trace' principles.
"Daly Rules" of Sustainability:
1. Renewable resources such as fish, soil, and groundwater must be used no faster than the rate at which they regenerate.
2. Nonrenewable resources such as minerals and fossil fuels must be used no faster than renewable substitutes for them can be put into place.
3. Pollution and wastes must be emitted no faster than natural systems can absorb them, recycle them, or render them harmless.
How could these rules be reworded into a concept for hiker enlightment? :)
I'm a fairly inexperienced hiker, and when I read the "leave no trace" list I tend to feel confused and depressed. That business about picking a campsite, for example... how'm I supposed to tell if an area is "never camped" or "impacts just beginning" or "an established campsite" or "camped out"?
I think it might be more constructive to consider reading, studying and discussing LNT principles more as learning, understanding and exchanging ideas with others than memorizing. It seems to me these principles are far more valuable as a catalyst for thought about how one's actions bear on the environment and discussion than as commandments, which they are not.
More experienced hikers may scoff at me, but that list is "information overload" for me and some of it I'm not even sure how to interpret.
One purpose of this thread might be to discuss and shed some light on some of the concepts less easily understood.
Unfortunately, it seems some want to use it to announce they reject it, rather than talk about how it might be improved or what might be put in its place. I'm concerned we'll end up with everyone making his or her own rules and there being no consensus on anything.
If I know WHY I shouldn't do something, and I can see it's an important reason, I'm more likely to comply.
AMEN. There's quite a bit of information to cover. We'd probably need a certified instructor to proceed, even if there could be any agreement on what ground to cover. Whether we could get there from here in this environment is doubtful, but I'd go along for the ride.
And I think it would be wiser if conservation groups would concentrate on the "important" points for the general public, and progress to the others once somebody has become interested/ involved in outdoor activity. Throwing the whole list at a newbie runs the real risk that they will either ignore the whole thing, or pack up and go home in discouragement.
Lest we forget, in many locations, there are already rules in place that have the force of law which supercede any other guidelines which might be created.
Actually, one reason I like shelters is they serve as a gathering point where novices can exchange information and learn from more experienced hikers. Of course, it is better to learn what can be learned before visiting the backcountry and WhiteBlaze can help there.
Appalachian Tater
12-23-2007, 12:20
My understanding is that LNT is a set of principles, not rules.
My understanding is that LNT is a set of principles, not rules.So are the Daly Rules.
Kind of like the principle of gravity, or the conservation of matter and energy. :)
Certainly important things to know. But they won't be learned with a slogan that makes no sense. When I wandered through the woods on one of our land trust trails my snowshoes left traces in the snow. I walked on a "trace," i.e. the trail I helped build so that people could more easily enjoy the woods -- and incidentally reduce the trace people would leave if we had encouraged multiple trails.
Leave no trace has become a business. It's technically illegal to use the words without paying someone money. Big groups using the slogan have been threatened with copyright infringement if they don't join.
Adherents mean well, but their message is mostly heard by the choir. The average beginning hiker neither knows nor cares about the message. They look behind themselves and see prints in the mud. "Hmm traces," they say. "well, there's nothing I can do about it." That's probably the last time they think about "Leave no trace. "
As a result trails and shelters are getting dirtier, not cleaner. A simple "carry in, carry out" message requires no thought, no elaborate manuals, no expensive classes. It simply works, or used to before the message got mixed up with gobbledegook.
Weary
Those who don't like the words Leave No Trace should feel free to substitute Leave Nothing But Footprints.
Anyone got exclusive rights to that one? If so, Take Nothing But Pictures works too. Substitute Memories for Pictures if you like.
Weary, I've got a sign from the 70s I think you'd like. I'll see if I can get a decent pic to post.
warraghiyagey
12-23-2007, 17:43
Those who don't like the words Leave No Trace should feel free to substitute Leave Nothing But Footprints.
Anyone got exclusive rights to that one? If so, Take Nothing But Pictures works too. Substitute Memories for Pictures if you like.
Weary, I've got a sign from the 70s I think you'd like. I'll see if I can get a decent pic to post.
This one always summed it up for me
'Step lightly on the earth.' - AC
Don't throw anything away. There is no 'away'
- Royal Dutch Shell advert
When I lived in Maine, a public service message ran on a local TV station which featured children from a Bangor grade school. They urged viewers to reduce, reuse, recycle and refuse. I don't believe I'd ever heard the last one before, but it made sense to me.
Sometimes, I think one of the best things I can do is to refuse to be a consumer when I don't really need an item offered for sale. I like things that last too. Most producers don't seem to be interested in producing goods that last or maybe it's consumers who shop strictly based upon price who are to blame.
I hadn't heard that one either. I googled and its out there though.
Like you say it means to refuse to buy what's not needed and not well and responsibly made.
I like it.
reduce, reuse, recycle and refuse.
warraghiyagey
12-23-2007, 18:42
I hadn't heard that one either. I googled and its out there though.
Like you say it means to refuse to buy what's not needed and not well and responsibly made.
I like it.
reduce, reuse, recycle and refuse.
Striving for 'R's in this concept they might have stayed away from the word refuse as one meaning is with the concept and one is a picture of the opposite.
Striving for 'R's in this concept they might have stayed away from the word refuse as one meaning is with the concept and one is a picture of the opposite.
Just like the smart-ass that you are to point it out too, but, if you hadn't, someone else surely would have.:D
River Runner
12-23-2007, 19:57
Striving for 'R's in this concept they might have stayed away from the word refuse as one meaning is with the concept and one is a picture of the opposite.
Actually I like that very well, and think it very fitting. If I don't need a shopping bag for a single item, I REFUSE it. Lately, if I am out for the day and stop for a couple of fountain drinks during the day, I reuse my first cup, and REFUSE to get a second cup since the first is still good.
This extends to many things - think of all the packets of ketchup they try to give you with french fries, extra straws when they bring drink refills in restaurants, two packs of salad dressing with a carryout salad when I only use one, crackers or croutons I don't eat with that same salad, free samples being passed out in stores for things I'd never use, handout flyers for events I would never attend, etc.
I like it!
warraghiyagey
12-23-2007, 20:04
Just like the smart-ass that you are to point it out too, but, if you hadn't, someone else surely would have.:D
Thank you, thank you. . . I'll be here all night - watching the Lone Wolf show.:)
My understanding is that LNT is a set of principles, not rules.
Those who don't like the words Leave No Trace should feel free to substitute Leave Nothing But Footprints.
Anyone got exclusive rights to that one? If so, Take Nothing But Pictures works too. Substitute Memories for Pictures if you like.
Weary, I've got a sign from the 70s I think you'd like. I'll see if I can get a decent pic to post.
Given a little thought, it's really not that difficult a concept to understand. Most of the guidelines are there to help protect the environment and to allow others to enjoy it. Hikers need to start to think about others than just themselves. While it may be OK for a single hiker or a group to get away bending the guidelines or principals, if a 1000 did it, the backcountry would be an utter mess.
River Runner
12-23-2007, 20:14
I'm a fairly inexperienced hiker, and when I read the "leave no trace" list I tend to feel confused and depressed. That business about picking a campsite, for example... how'm I supposed to tell if an area is "never camped" or "impacts just beginning" or "an established campsite" or "camped out"? I have enough trouble just finding a place to set up my tent where it won't get holes poked in the bottom. More experienced hikers may scoff at me, but that list is "information overload" for me and some of it I'm not even sure how to interpret.
It would be helpful to me if someone would separate out the "don't do this because it really harms the environment" parts from "don't do this because you might annoy another hiker" parts. For example, I suspect that throwing plastic food wrappers on the ground falls into the former category (because you might make wildlife sick and/or teach them that the trail = food) while burying toilet paper falls into the latter (it looks ugly if it re-appears, but it's biodegradable). The distinction may seem obvious to a lot of you, but it's really not to me. If I know WHY I shouldn't do something, and I can see it's an important reason, I'm more likely to comply.
And I think it would be wiser if conservation groups would concentrate on the "important" points for the general public, and progress to the others once somebody has become interested/ involved in outdoor activity. Throwing the whole list at a newbie runs the real risk that they will either ignore the whole thing, or pack up and go home in discouragement.
Actually Leave No Trace workshops or classes doe try to do just what you suggest - keep it on a level appropriate for the audience, and get the participants to thinking about the reasoning behind the various priniciples.
I do think some of the printed literature still could stand some improvement on this - but some of the newer literature is doing a better job on it.
And, to address some of your questions, once you look around it is rather easy to see the difference between a site that either has never been used or has recovered from prior use - there won't be trampling or disturbance. With an 'impacts just beginning, you will note some trampling, perhaps some light trails being formed between the site and the woods and water, perhaps a cleared area used for a kitchen. With most established sites the ground will be mostly cleared, with well established side trails leading to tent sites, water, and larger trees and bushes (bathroom areas), and there will likely (but not always) be a fire ring. 'Camped Out' would be the call of the particular agency responsible for the area. My guess would be things like signs of erosion beginning, but I believe the main reason an agency would ask campers not to stay at an area would be a fragile environment or rare species of plants or animals that camping would adversely affect.
Given a little thought, it's really not that difficult a concept to understand.
I agree and I don't object to what it's called either. Leaving no trace is of course an unobtainable ideal comparable to a life without sin. Just because it's impossible, doesn't mean there's no point in trying.
LNT should serve to remind backcountry diners there's no such thing as a "free lunch," even though devout believers in trail magic insist it isn't so.;)
Since WB members are already educated, how do we get the word to the newbies? By the time a newbie hikers learns to LNT, or LLT (leave little trace), they have left a trace.
Appalachian Tater
12-23-2007, 22:36
Tin Man, there are plenty of experienced hikers doing things like leaving beer cans in fire rings.
Tin Man, there are plenty of experienced hikers doing things like leaving beer cans in fire rings.
I said WB members. We are pure. ;)
Since WB members are already educated, how do we get the word to the newbies? By the time a newbie hikers learns to LNT, or LLT (leave little trace), they have left a trace.
I don't think it's up to you, me, or Whiteblaze to reach out and teach LNT to "newbies" other than pointing out the website, answering questions (if asked), applying a little peer pressure, and leading by example.
I don't think it's up to you, me, or Whiteblaze to reach out and teach LNT to "newbies" other than pointing out the website, answering questions (if asked), applying a little peer pressure, and leading by example.
Obviously. So, why talk about it for so many pages?
Appalachian Tater
12-23-2007, 22:56
I don't think it's up to you, me, or Whiteblaze to reach out and teach LNT to "newbies" other than pointing out the website, answering questions (if asked), applying a little peer pressure, and leading by example.
That sounds like plenty to me. What more is there? You could pass out flyers at trailheads but they would end up as a trace.
Good Lord, 7 PAGES on this?
Can't we all just agree to try and not make a "mess"?
well, we could. but we would have to define 'mess', and that would be another 20 or so pages. exxon has a definition of mess and it involves the valdez, dow is bhopal, democrats iraq, republicans their president, the average joe his garage, and me, well, thats just where i store my gear.
nature isn't sustainable. it is abundant.
we should be finding ways to live in abundance - that don't need thousands of regulations to keep us from killing each other (and the other species who share this rock) too quickly. once we get there, we can toss 'sustainability' out the window, along with most forms of control and governance and regulation. (interesting that when someone kills someone in a fit of rage its murder, but when we let ourselves kill each other over the years by pumping carcinogens into the air, mercury into the water, asbestos into our buildings... we call it 'the cost of doing business'.) (and then the regulations start... the legal wrangling, the trading of credits, of pollution, of externalizing the dirty stuff... for... 'progress')
Obviously. So, why talk about it for so many pages?
LOL... Someone brought it up. :D
That sounds like plenty to me. What more is there? You could pass out flyers at trailheads but they would end up as a trace.
Production, print and delivery of paper leaves a major trace.
Since WB members are already educated, how do we get the word to the newbies? By the time a newbie hikers learns to LNT, or LLT (leave little trace), they have left a trace.
Tin Man, if you really believe all WhiteBlazers can pass without a trace, then maybe we should do what we can to promote boy scouts, hiking clubs and other groups who will introduce these principles to novices.
The best way to get more people on the A.T. while minimizing their traces is day-hiking since more traces are associated with overnight use than day use. LNT concepts can be introduced on day hikes by pointing out traces and expanded upon when day hikers then join club hikers on overnight hikes.
Of course the best time for backcountry users to learn these concepts is when they are still young and can influence their friends. It's also harder to teach old dogs new tricks. Sometimes it takes something just short of a miracle.
LOL... Someone brought it up. :D
Another absurb thread defining itself. :D
That sounds like plenty to me. What more is there? You could pass out flyers at trailheads but they would end up as a trace.
LNT proper has made a business of it. It's not up to me to pass out flyers.
Appalachian Tater
12-23-2007, 23:01
Production, print and delivery of paper leaves a major trace.
Yes, it is very complicated to minimize use of resources. An argument can even be made that it is better to buy food shipped long distances in bulk than that shipped short distances in small quantities, like what you find in a farmer's market. I have talked to some of the people at the farmer's market near me and for some of them, fuel is their largest expense.
LNT proper has made a business of it. It's not up to me to pass out flyers. Well, I would argue that we all need to do whatever we can to prevent destruction of the planet and preserve the semi-natural areas that are left.
Tin Man, if you really believe all WhiteBlazers can pass without a trace, then maybe we should do what we can to promote boy scouts, hiking clubs and other groups who will introduce these principles to novices.
The best way to get more people on the A.T. while minimizing their traces is day-hiking since more traces are associated with overnight use than day use. LNT concepts can be introduced on day hikes by pointing out traces and expanded upon when day hikers then join club hikers on overnight hikes.
Of course the best time for backcountry users to learn these concepts is when they are still young and can influence their friends. It's also harder to teach old dogs new tricks. Sometimes it takes something just short of a miracle.
That's what I do with our Scout Troup. And my oldest teaches LNT principles to younger scouts.
Well, doesn't that call for a round of applauds!;)
remember, be sure to drive or fly to the trailhead.
and if you are section hiking, be sure to park a car at the end and drive another to the beginning.
and be sure that the energy powering your computer for reading WB is powered by coal. or nukes.
and make sure your day job is inline with your core values on the trail.
and buy all your gear from countries as far away from you as possible, with horrible human rights records, made from 'miracle' fabrics. (pertol derivitives?). and overnight ship (via air) whenever you buy something online. (gots to keep $$ in those pilots and truck drivers pockets so they can buy gear too and get out on the trail next year!)
if there is no world left when were done passing through, there will be no trace to worry bout either.
berninbush
12-23-2007, 23:49
And, to address some of your questions, once you look around it is rather easy to see the difference between a site that either has never been used or has recovered from prior use - there won't be trampling or disturbance. With an 'impacts just beginning, you will note some trampling, perhaps some light trails being formed between the site and the woods and water, perhaps a cleared area used for a kitchen. With most established sites the ground will be mostly cleared, with well established side trails leading to tent sites, water, and larger trees and bushes (bathroom areas), and there will likely (but not always) be a fire ring. 'Camped Out' would be the call of the particular agency responsible for the area. My guess would be things like signs of erosion beginning, but I believe the main reason an agency would ask campers not to stay at an area would be a fragile environment or rare species of plants or animals that camping would adversely affect.
:) Thanks for the rundown.
But that leads to my next question... generally trail "rules" will say to camp at least 100 yards (or some similar distance) off the trail. Unless you're on a trail with officially established/marked campsites, how do you spot one from the trail? The trail I hike most often doesn't have any established sites visible, so I end up making my own. I leave the place as little disturbed as possible, but it does usually involve tearing up some small vegetation on the spot where I put my tent. In that situation, would LNT principles say it's better to camp on a bare spot visible from the trail, or to go the designated amount off the trail and just disturb your spot as little as possible?
I guess the broader question is, what do you do when LNT rules are self-contradictory or contradict local rules?
:) Thanks for the rundown.
But that leads to my next question... generally trail "rules" will say to camp at least 100 yards (or some similar distance) off the trail. Unless you're on a trail with officially established/marked campsites, how do you spot one from the trail? The trail I hike most often doesn't have any established sites visible, so I end up making my own. I leave the place as little disturbed as possible, but it does usually involve tearing up some small vegetation on the spot where I put my tent. In that situation, would LNT principles say it's better to camp on a bare spot visible from the trail, or to go the designated amount off the trail and just disturb your spot as little as possible?
I guess the broader question is, what do you do when LNT rules are self-contradictory or contradict local rules?
Regs take precedence over guidelines. I believe these principles we've mentioned are meant to guide hikers who will then use their own discretion to determine what's best under the prevailing conditions. I believe I read good sites are found, not created. That's about all I'd care to say on the subject.
I guess the broader question is, what do you do when LNT rules are self-contradictory or contradict local rules?
I'd say local rules first, and if LNT rules seem to contradict one another, use your best judgement.
PS. This is all really rather simple, why is it so hard to understand or implement?
PS. This is all really rather simple, why is it so hard to understand or implement?
I dunno. Shall we go for 11 pages?
River Runner
12-24-2007, 02:46
:) Thanks for the rundown.
But that leads to my next question... generally trail "rules" will say to camp at least 100 yards (or some similar distance) off the trail. Unless you're on a trail with officially established/marked campsites, how do you spot one from the trail? The trail I hike most often doesn't have any established sites visible, so I end up making my own. I leave the place as little disturbed as possible, but it does usually involve tearing up some small vegetation on the spot where I put my tent. In that situation, would LNT principles say it's better to camp on a bare spot visible from the trail, or to go the designated amount off the trail and just disturb your spot as little as possible?
I guess the broader question is, what do you do when LNT rules are self-contradictory or contradict local rules?
As some of the others have said, regulations are the first consideration. If there aren't regulations, it's usually best to go ahead and use an established site even if it is less than 100 feet (the recommended distance you are asking about) off the trail. Often you will see a well worn path to established sites that aren't visible from the trail, so that's one thing to look for if you don't find a marked site. If there are no well worn side paths, there probably is not an established site. Guidebooks can often help provide information if there are established sites in an area.
Basically what it comes down to is this - of the alternatives I have, which creates the least lasting impact? Choose that one, and you'll at least be minimalizing your impact, which is really what it's all about.
Just Jeff
12-24-2007, 10:20
PS. This is all really rather simple, why is it so hard to understand or implement?
Because 1) people tend to overthink things, and 2) we live in a litigious society where everyone tries to find the loopholes, so everything has to be defined down to the gnat's ass. The Death of Common Sense.
PS. This is all really rather simple, why is it so hard to understand or implement?
Because 1) people tend to overthink things, and 2) we live in a litigious society where everyone tries to find the loopholes, so everything has to be defined down to the gnat's ass. The Death of Common Sense.
I guess I have to agree, sad, very sad. :(
Just Jeff, are you coming to the SoRuck?
Packing out TP seems extreme to me.
I think it is extreme in a environment with much plant growth (like most of the Appalachians), but above treeline and in the desert it makes much more sense.
Packing out TP seems extreme to me.
I think it is extreme in a environment with much plant growth (like most of the Appalachians), but above treeline and in the desert it makes much more sense.
Yes it does Mags. A few days worth of TP in a zip lock isn't too much to ask for.
When I climbed Mt Shasta they gave us a kit to pack out our solid waste. If you want to play....
I think it is extreme in a environment with much plant growth (like most of the Appalachians), but above treeline and in the desert it makes much more sense.
What you say makes sense. Hmmm... is it possible that I've never had to poo above treeline? :-?
River Runner
12-27-2007, 17:24
I think it is extreme in a environment with much plant growth (like most of the Appalachians), but above treeline and in the desert it makes much more sense.
True. Like many other things in life, "one size fits all" doesn't always work.
Perhaps LNT could consider coming up with wording appropriate for this. Maybe something along the lines of "In fragile environs, pack out toilet paper" or "in environments where burying toilet paper is not feasible due to slow decomposition, pack out toilet paper"?
CoyoteWhips
12-27-2007, 17:46
What you say makes sense. Hmmm... is it possible that I've never had to poo above treeline? :-?
That's my plan in life. I'm not going anywhere that I have to poo in a bag.
That's my plan in life. I'm not going anywhere that I have to poo in a bag.
I've been there (above treeline) on many occasions... I just can't remember what my digestive tract was doing at the time. :-?