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hikerdg
12-16-2003, 22:47
Planning a thru-hike how easy is it to get alcohol along the trail as compared to white gas.

hungryhowie
12-16-2003, 23:13
Quite easy. When I thruhiked in 2000, I never had trouble finding it, and this was when the only commercially available alcohol stove was the Trangia. You should have little trouble finding it in any trail town now.

On a side note, I was able to go about 3-4 weeks on each "fill-up." I used a plain tuna can (for my stove) and used a 20oz soda bottle for the fuel. I cooked 1 meal/day and an occassional hot tea before bed.

-Howie

P.S. I see you're from AL. Where at? I'm in Montgomery.



Planning a thru-hike how easy is it to get alcohol along the trail as compared to white gas.

chris
12-17-2003, 10:32
In 2002, you could get either whitegas or alcohol (by the ounce) at Walasi-Yi, Hot Springs, Erwin (at Uncle Johnny's, but I'm sure Miss Janet can also direct you where to find it), and, I think, Damascus. They definitely had cannisters in Hot Springs and Damascus, and I believe you could also fill up at the NOC (with any fuel). Note that a full 20oz. bottle of denatured is enough for about 15-20 boils (enough to cook up a double Liptons or Ramen, etc).

smokymtnsteve
12-17-2003, 10:46
The Campground at Rainbow springs also has alkyhol fuel

DebW
12-17-2003, 13:57
I had trouble finding alcohol in Bristol, VT on my Long Trail trip this year. I tried an auto parts store, gas station, and grocery store looking for yellow Heet. Only found the red stuff with isopropanol. Hardware store was too far out of town. Ended up with some generic gas line antifreeze that said it was part methanol and part isopropanol. Must have been mostly isopropanol because it stunk and covered my pot and windscreen with soot. Ended up leaving that soot on a white washrag in a hotel room.

Matt Pincham
12-18-2003, 06:03
I know a lot of folks on here are all for alcohol but I'm not too keen on it. I may get a multi fuel stove but may just stick with white gas. Is white gas the easiest fuel to get hold of?

Blue Jay
12-18-2003, 08:32
Is white gas the easiest fuel to get hold of?

No, regular gas is by far the most common. That is why I still mostly use a universal gas stove for long distance hikes. You don't even have to concern yourself about fuel availability, it's everywhere. I like alcohol for weight, but sometimes it is not easy to find.

Matt Pincham
12-18-2003, 09:06
No, regular gas is by far the most common. That is why I still mostly use a universal gas stove for long distance hikes. You don't even have to concern yourself about fuel availability, it's everywhere. I like alcohol for weight, but sometimes it is not easy to find.

So an MSR Pocket Rocket would be a good choice?
The DragonFly, Expedition and WhisperLite look better but they're also heavier and a damn sight more expensive.

If there's one thing I'm pretty clueless on, it's stoves!

bearbag hanger
12-18-2003, 09:44
So an MSR Pocket Rocket would be a good choice?
The DragonFly, Expedition and WhisperLite look better but they're also heavier and a damn sight more expensive.

If there's one thing I'm pretty clueless on, it's stoves!

I use alcohol now, but have used the Wisperlight for many years. If it's really "wisper" light, you might want to fire up your choice and see how much noise it makes. Some of them sound like a 747 taking off over your head! I think the white or multi-fuel stoves are a good, close, second choice to what I use. Not only is white or regular gas more available, it heats things up a lot quicker.

Peaks
12-18-2003, 09:56
Matt, in 2001 and 2002, coleman fuel was readily available between Georgia and Maine. In fact, a few places had open cans that you could just top off you bottle gratus. I never had any problem finding fuel and did not need to resort to using gas from a gas station. Most sources are listed in Wingfoot or the Companion. So, look at these books and figure out how it fits in with your resupply plans.

Blue Jay
12-18-2003, 09:57
So an MSR Pocket Rocket would be a good choice?


No, the Pocket Rocket is a canister (propane) stove and canisters could be the most difficult to find (although some may disagree). The Pocket Rocket is a great stove, a little blast furnace that heats water very fast and has close to the light weight of alcohol.

Alcohol:
Plusses - lightest, fairly easy to find
Minuses - Poor heating time in winter

Universal Gas:
Plusses - By far the most easy to find, very short heating time
Minuses - Expensive and half to a pound heavier.

I own almost every stove and on a 1000 mile hike I take a MSR Dragonfly, but I'm a go heavy guy who likes to eat and use the simmer feature. I also like not even having to think about fuel. Most people use alcohol and I can clearly understand why.

RagingHampster
12-18-2003, 10:41
Backpacking Stoves I have:
- MSR Whisperlite International (Multi-Fuel)
- MSR Pocket Rocket
- Trangia
- Soda-Can Stove

For 3-Season use I take the Soda-Can stove. Lightweight, easy to use, and quiet. It does take a little while longer to boil water over the Gasoline/Canister stoves, but they simmer great. But now that I have used them alot, I might consider taking my Trangia instead, even though it weighs a couple ounces more. I'd do this for the durability, and ability to store/save fuel inside it.

In the winter I take my Pocket Rocket. Last winter I used my Whisperheavy, but I gave the Pocket Rocket another chance after being dissapointed with my first try, and have grown to like it. I would not reccomend taking it anywhere outside of what you can carry for fuel canisters, as they can be difficult to find. They are also expensive at around $5 a pop.

hungryhowie
12-18-2003, 12:39
One thing that I'm seeing frequently in this thread is the idea that Alcohol takes longer than white-gas stoves to boil water. While white-gas stoves certainly cook faster than alcohol stoves, I've beaten my whisper-lite and dragonfly carrying friends to boiling water many times on the trail. How?

one word: priming.

When using a liquid-fuel stove such as white-gas stoves, the fuel must be vaporized before passing through the jets in order to create a controlled blue flame. This means cracking the fuel line and preheating (or priming) the stove to vaporize the fuel already in the fuel line (you're basically running one cycle so the stove can do the rest). It takes anywhere between 1-2 minutes to do this.

Alcohol stoves (at least the ones that I use), need no priming. Simply light and cook. This 1-2 minutes of priming is enough for my simple tuna can to out-perform either a whisper-lite or dragonfly type almost every time.

Only canister stoves are quicker than alcohol (their fuel is pre-vaporized in the canister).

Another note to emphasize availability. White gas is everywhere. Nearly every trail town has one source, many have several sources (hostel, outfitter, some restaurants, etc). Many of these sources are also "pay by the ounce" instead of being forced to purchase an entire gallon of it. In the past few years, many of these same places have seen the need to also carry alcohol. So while it's not AS available as white-gas, it is still very much available. That, and with on 20-oz bottle, I could go about 400-500 trail miles (or 3-4 weeks) every time. To combat its lesser availability (and this was in 2000), I usually began looking for it one week in advance...just in case. I never needed this buffer, though. I always found it when I needed it).

-Howie

LBJ
12-19-2003, 12:49
Someone needs to make the Trangia stove out of Titanium. I'll be the first to buy one! Also, how much alcohol do you thru hikers take with you? 8oz, 10 oz 20oz, quart?

chris
12-19-2003, 13:01
I take a 20 oz. soda bottle, but the amount of alcohol in it varies with when and where I am hiking. I use about an ounce a day during mild weather, 3-5 oz. in the cold. Bottles of HEET come in 12 oz. sizes and that is what I usually refill with, unless I happen to run into a jug of denatured in a hiker box or find a place that sells by the ounce.

RagingHampster
12-19-2003, 13:58
2 minutes to prime your Whisperlite? Holy crap!

I can usually have a whispertorch up and melting pots in well under a minute. I just make a massive priming flame, which takes about 10sec to prime the stove, crack the valve, and fire away! The longest part is packing up after using Unleaded Gasoline, as it soots everywhere, but I think Unleaded Gas is alot easier to get than white Gas, atleast around where I live anyways :D

I would never even consider using an alcohol stove in my tent, but in the winter its a great convenience to do your cooking inside with the door flap half open (for the CO and Water Vapor). This is why I use a canister stove in the winter. Canister stoves are also easier to control with cold hands over fumbling with the trangia simmer cap. Before I re-adopted the Pocket Rocket, I was using the Whisperlite, which forced me to go outside my tent. I certainly love alcohol stoves, but there are certain circumstances where their instability is not worth their 2-6oz savings over a canister stove.

In my personal tests outdoors (outside of the controlled atmosphere kitchen type testing) alcohol stoves are terrible in the cold and wind, whisperheavies are juggernauts, and canister stoves are healthy mediums that provide a safe fuel source.

If you want to try something fun, fire up a pocket rocket and tip it upside down :p :p :p

Just my $0.02

DebW
12-19-2003, 14:16
2 minutes to prime your Whisperlite? Holy crap!

This is why I use a canister stove in the winter. Canister stoves are also easier to control with cold hands over fumbling with the trangia simmer cap. Before I re-adopted the Pocket Rocket, I was using the Whisperlite, which forced me to go outside my tent. I certainly love alcohol stoves, but there are certain circumstances where their instability is not worth their 2-6oz savings over a canister stove.

In my personal tests outdoors (outside of the controlled atmosphere kitchen type testing) alcohol stoves are terrible in the cold and wind, whisperheavies are juggernauts, and canister stoves are healthy mediums that provide a safe fuel source.



RH, have you used the canister stove in real winter conditions, like -20? Do you have to preheat the canister? Conventional wisdom used to be that canister stoves didn't work in winter (butane turns to liquid at some temperature), but I guess there are gas mixtures these days that are better.

RagingHampster
12-19-2003, 14:36
Haven't tested it when it was that cold, but tested it around 0*F +/- a few degrees. What I've been doing is putting it under my jacket for a few minutes, and this is usually enough to fire it up. Last winter, the first time I tried the Pocket Rocket I had problems getting the fuel to vaporize, but have learned the subtle downsides of the PocketRocket and adapted to them.

The zero-spill nature of the stove, and instant max heat output is what sells canister stoves to me for winter use. There is also a big difference between Iso-Butane canisters, and n-Butane canisters due to their vaporization pressures. Iso-Butane mixtures burn much better in the cold. Then again Iso-Butane is the only canister fuel I've used besides basic propane for my coleman stove.

But even alcohol stoves perform poorly in the temperatures you mentioned (if at all). Whisperheavies are certainly the juggernaut (as I mentioned) when it comes to winter camping (in my limited experience anyways :D ), but if you stick the fuel in your jacket to warm it up a bit, canister stoves are perfectly viable stoves for winter use. It's also the only stove I'd trust to use inside a tent. So far so good anyways :)

EDIT:
Canister stove fuel is actually mostly liquid in the can anyways. Shake a canister and you can here it slosh around. The liquid fuel in the canister vaporizes to fill the void not taken up by the fluid. Warming the canister builds up the pressure. I have noticed a difference in performance between a full canister and an almost empty one though.
From the Mountaineer's Bible, Freedom of the Hills...
"Butane cartridge stoves are popular because of their convenience: easy to light, good flame control, immediate maximum heat output, and no chance of fuel spills. the pressure forces teh fuel out as soon as the valve is opened, eliminating both pumping and priming. Most butane stoves are not recommended for temperatures below freezing unless the fuel is warmed. An exception is a stove that uses isobutane fuel, which has performed well at high altitude and in cold, wet conditions. With it's windscreen/heat reflector, this stove has proven superior in wind as well."

gravityman
12-19-2003, 16:32
I actually just had my first chance over thanksgiving in Moab to use our canister stove in the cold. It was in the high teens and the stove did have MUCH lower output when I left it outside all night and then just tried to fire it up. The output started to drop as time went on, but it was more than enough to heat up a little water, which I then poured onto a flat bottomed bowl (we were car camping, but a tuperware would have worked) which really boosted the output back to norm. The next day I brought the stove into my sleeping bag with me, and it did fine the next morning, but the output was dropping, so I poured some hot water off again.

It would be very easy to get some copper tubing to wrap around the canister and stick in near the flame to keep the canister warm, but you have to be careful not to overheat the canister!

Gravity Man

PS It was isobutane fuel.

hungryhowie
12-20-2003, 00:40
Canister stoves don't do that well in extreme cold because of the nature of their fuel. The best way to use a canister in extreme cold is to have multiple canisters. Use one until it won't go anymore, than switch it out for the next. Put the one you were using under your coat to warm it up again, and then when that one goes out, switch them again. When it gets really cold, this is the only way they'll work. Using a windscreen that ecompasses the canister is very dangerous...it could blow up.

P.S. R. Hampster - do you use a windscreen for your gas stoves? If you do, then why not use one for alcohol? The fact that most don't use jets or vaporized fuel means that they're inherintly more susceptible to wind. It makes plenty of since to use a full windscreen. They're noticably more efficient this way, too.

-Howie

RagingHampster
12-20-2003, 10:12
Alcohol requires vaporization just like any other liquid fuel stove, but alcohol stoves keep themselves warm as they self-prime, another reason why Whisperheavies are the most reliable in the winter.

hungryhowie
12-20-2003, 12:11
Alcohol requires vaporization just like any other liquid fuel stove, but alcohol stoves keep themselves warm as they self-prime, another reason why Whisperheavies are the most reliable in the winter.


Maybe I can learn something here. I use a tuna can. I pour my alcohol in and light. There is a blue flame immediately. It burns on the surface of the alcohol. I don't see how it is vaporizing and always considered it to burn as a liquid. Are you saying it is really vaporizing and the flame is just off of the liquid's surface? I'm not being subordinate, I'm sincerely trying to learn so I don't mis-inform people about this later.

Thanks

-Howie

RagingHampster
12-20-2003, 17:04
Yes thats correct, the flame is actually above the surface of the fluid. Any liquid fuel that requires oxygen to reduce itself must be vaporized or it won't burn. Alcohol that is evaporating is what you light aflame. As you heat the alcohol up, more of it will vaporize.

Chappy
12-20-2003, 19:16
Backpacking Stoves I have:
- MSR Whisperlite International (Multi-Fuel)
- MSR Pocket Rocket
- Trangia
- Soda-Can Stove

For 3-Season use I take the Soda-Can stove. Lightweight, easy to use, and quiet. It does take a little while longer to boil water over the Gasoline/Canister stoves, but they simmer great. But now that I have used them alot, I might consider taking my Trangia instead, even though it weighs a couple ounces more. I'd do this for the durability, and ability to store/save fuel inside it.

In the winter I take my Pocket Rocket. Last winter I used my Whisperheavy, but I gave the Pocket Rocket another chance after being dissapointed with my first try, and have grown to like it. I would not reccomend taking it anywhere outside of what you can carry for fuel canisters, as they can be difficult to find. They are also expensive at around $5 a pop.


RH: With normal cooking conditions how long would a canister last?

RagingHampster
12-20-2003, 20:49
I here alot of people talk about how long fuel will last, for whatever stove they have (white gas/canister/alcohol/etc). Personally I'd have to say it varies.

I'm not a thru-hiker, or a hundred+ mile section hiker. I'm more of a 10-30 mile weekend hiker, and then do two or three 5-6 mile hikes during the week, although I can't wait for the day where I don't work 6 days a week and can hike hundreds of miles (fast approaching!).

I think many thru-hikers fall into a routine of cooking and can give you a better estimate by taking an average of their useage. Sometimes when I cook I use it for 3 minutes to make instant potatoes and at other times I use it for 15-25 minutes to cook rice pilaf.

That being said, I believe MSR claims the pocket rocket with an 8oz fuel canister will burn about an hour at wide-open flame. You use the most fuel heating the water to a boil, and next to none when your maintaining a simmer and have the valve barely cracked. This means during the winter I can cook about 20 packs of instant spuds. Expect this to go down if your melting snow. If your going out for weeks on end during the winter, I would definetly go with a whisperlite, but if it's weekend treks, I'd consider the Pocket Rocket as a serious option.

Rain Man
12-21-2003, 11:00
RH: With normal cooking conditions how long would a canister last?

In our very first short section hike in August in GA, our Primus canister lasted two and one half days! I wonder if it had a leak or something. We had a Primus self-starting screw-on stove (similar to MSR Pocket Rocket). We used it for four hikers, for breakfasts and dinner. Anyway, we were told it would last us seven days and were sorely disappointed when it sputtered out the third morning.

Rain Man

.

Rain Man
12-21-2003, 11:01
RH: With normal cooking conditions how long would a canister last?

In our very first short section hike in August in GA, our Primus canister lasted two and one half days! I wonder if it had a leak or something. We had a Primus self-starting screw-on stove (similar to MSR Pocket Rocket). We used it for four hikers, for breakfasts and dinner. Anyway, we were told it would last us seven days and were sorely disappointed when it sputtered out the third morning.

As they say, YMMV. (Your Mileage May Vary)

Rain Man

.

RagingHampster
12-21-2003, 11:48
...our Primus canister lasted two and one half days!
Well a few things here...

1. - You were cooking for four people?
2. - Did you cook big meals, or just boil water?
3. - Was it an 8oz or 4oz canister?

4 people X 2 meals a day X 2.5 days X 3min a meal = 60 minutes.

Thats pretty close to MSR's reported burn time for an 8oz cartridge, and doesn't sound two unreasonable.

Think of it like this for someone that's solo...
1 person X 2 meals a day X 7 days X 3min a meal = 42 minutes.
If you look at it like this, you will need about 2 canisters every 3 weeks for each person. Someone like me who simmers alot would probably go through an 8oz canister a week. Expect less performance (by about half) in the winter when your melting snow.

One other downside is that you often find yourself carrying two canisters when you begin a trip with only a little fuel in one.

Doctari
12-21-2003, 21:34
Just a little "fire science" to understand your stove better;

The only thing that burns is a gas. Solid does not burn, Liquid does not burn. ONLY gas. That said, I shall explain myself: assuming the above is correct; the ONLY way to burn anything is to first change it into a gas. Which is also why the finer you make something (wood shavings, alcohol in a fine mist, etc.) the faster it burns. In fact take a fine wood dust & throw it into a fire, what you will see as an explosion is actually a very fast burn (that is what an explosive like TNT or primer cord does, it BURNS VERY FAST).

A Pepsi can [or similar] stove brings the temp of the alcohol up AND also forces it to vaporize quickly through the small holes. That is also how a gasoline stove works. A wood fire is similar, first you light SMALL pieces called tinder, that heats the wood enough that it starts to vaporize into what I guess you could call wood gas.

All of these flames can seem to burn right on the stuff that is burning, hence the alcohol or wood, or gasoline or Styrofoam, etc. seems to be actually burning. The neatest fire I ever saw was a magnesium (metal) fire, WOW. But, same principal as mentioned above. (Aluminum dust burns well too, , , BOOM!) If you ever plan on smoking anywhere near a flour storage facility, please make sure I am at least 1 mile away, oh yes, also leave me the name of your next of kin because wheat flour dust will explode quite well.



Doctari.

Matt Pincham
12-22-2003, 09:07
Excellent post Doctari.

Takes me back to my school days (which was only a few years ago anyway :p ) If you've ever sprayed some deodorant on your hand and set it on fire, you'll know what Doctari means. It's the gas burning, thankfully it's not your flesh.

One thing I'm still unclear on is your wording. When you say gas do you mean the gas you stick in your car (petroleum) and when you say white gas you mean the canister gas right?

RagingHampster
12-22-2003, 09:11
Gas = Unleaded Gasoline... Automobile Gas (Petrol)
White Gas = A refined Gas that has little additives & burns cleaner.

Doctari
12-23-2003, 00:11
Excellent post Doctari.
One thing I'm still unclear on is your wording. When you say gas do you mean the gas you stick in your car (petroleum) and when you say white gas you mean the canister gas right?


By "gas" I ment NOT a solid or liquid. Examples: Ice is H2O as a solid, Water is H2O as a liquid, Steam is H2O as a gas. Water dosn't burn (well, it can, but that is another topic) but that is the best example I can come up with. I guess I should have said "vapor" :D

White "gas" is actually highly refined Gasoline (Coleman fuel as an example)
Canister "gas" is Butaine or probpaine or similar, it is a liquid when compressed, but quickly vaporises at normal pressure, altho suers will attest that when it's cold it don't vaporise as well.

Denatured Alcohol as used in our "Pepsi" stoves is wood alcohol, yes fermented wood*, and is VERY toxic. It will kill you dead.

Esbit is a compressed fuel "tablet" that burns better than Trioxine (also a compressed fuel tablet)

Wood is dead trees ;)

All burn by turning the liquid or solid fuel into a vapor with heat or compression (de-compression) or whatever. it is this vapor or "gas" that burns.


* Hard to make, so much of what is sold as such is actually a high % of grain alcohol mixed with wood alcohol. Grain alcohol is the stuff you drink, therefore is heavily taxed, but way easier to make, so to avoid the tax AND expense, they make perfectly good Booze undrinkable, a damn shame if you ask me. :bse
Anyway, dont' drink denatured alcohol, if it don't kill you it WILL make you blind.


Thanks for the question, hope this clarifies it for all. If not, ask again & I'll try to do better.

Doctari.

enLightened One
03-06-2004, 01:24
Denatured Alcohol as used in our "Pepsi" stoves is wood alcohol, yes fermented wood*, and is VERY toxic. It will kill you dead.

.

Clarification needed here...Denatured alcohol is not Wood Alcohol. Denatured Alcohol is ethanol or grain alcohol with a poisonous ingredient added to discourage drinking. To "denature" a substance is to change its properties, in this case from consumable as in liquor to inconsumable for use as a solvent or as a fuel. The reason for this is to avoid having to buy it at a liquor store and pay exhorbitant taxes.

Wood Alcohol is methanol and this is extremely poisonous and not recommended for use at all.