View Full Version : Boil / Filter same end result ??
If you boil water, does it make it safe the same way as if you would filter it ??
Or are there differences in what safety factor you get ??
Basically, if you boil water for a dehydrated meal - do you have to filter it first ??
Thanks
TripleG
Lone Wolf
12-24-2007, 10:08
Basically, if you boil water for a dehydrated meal - do you have to filter it first ??
Thanks
TripleG
no..........
Pedaling Fool
12-24-2007, 10:11
Seems to me boiling is safest method to ensure safe drinking water, no chance of cross contamination, but it's just so inconvient.
But don't listen to me because I don't treat water, drink it straight from the source.
If you boil water, does it make it safe the same way as if you would filter it ??
Or are there differences in what safety factor you get ??
Basically, if you boil water for a dehydrated meal - do you have to filter it first ??
Thanks
TripleG Boiling water is actually the "gold standard" to kill microorganisms. Give your H2O a 3 minute rolling boil and nothing can stand up to it, including giardia and cryptosporidium. Personally, if I'm going to boil water for a meal, I don't filter it, per se. I do run it through a bandana to remove any little things I don't want in it like sand, etc. But I don't see a point in filtering water that's going to be boiled anyway.
Just Jeff
12-24-2007, 10:14
Boiling kills all the germs. Filtering removes them. Same end result.
Filtering also removes the debris in the water if that's important to you. I usually strain thru a bandana when I fill up...it gets the big stuff but there's often little pieces of stuff that slip through. No biggie - hardly even notice.
2Questions
12-24-2007, 10:26
Boiling will kill bugs and other micro living things..which is probably the greatest concern on the trail, but boiling can be detremental if the water has high amounts of inorganic contaminants such as nitrates, sulfates, etc. Boiling concentrates the contaminants left in the pot as the water molecule vaporizes off. Overall, I'd lean toward the greater danger of microbe contamination and the desire to kill them.
Lone Wolf
12-24-2007, 10:28
oh christ! :rolleyes: tripleG, just boil the water and eat. don't worry what all the experts have to say
max patch
12-24-2007, 10:45
No need to treat/filter your water if you are going to boil it afterwards.
No worries!
4eyedbuzzard
12-24-2007, 10:48
You don't even have to boil it. Just bring it to over 185 F for a few minutes. Save fuel, you don't need a rolling boil. The water never gets any hotter than it is just before it starts to boil. Lots of wasted energy in the phase state change from liquid at 212 to vapor(steam) at 212.
http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/manual/water.shtml
take-a-knee
12-24-2007, 12:03
Boiling water won't sterilize it, but it will make it safe to drink (potable). As long as the water was moving and clear, I wouldn't bother to treat or filter it.
In summer, when my stoves are more efficient, I tend to just boil the water if I am rehydrating something (or cooking - rare).
In colder weather, I filter water for the meal because boiling it for the required time will use more fuel due to the cold rapidly stealing the heat from my stove, pot, and water.
If the water is murky, first I scoop some out in a gallon plastic bag, let the silt settle, then filter (or pour, depending on temperature) water off the top, discarding the sediment.
Filtering is not affected by cold weather like chemical treatments are (takes longer in the cold) - that is, unless you let your filter freeze :rolleyes: .
You don't even have to boil it. Just bring it to over 185 F for a few minutes. Save fuel, you don't need a rolling boil. The water never gets any hotter than it is just before it starts to boil. Lots of wasted energy in the phase state change from liquid at 212 to vapor(steam) at 212.
http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/manual/water.shtml
4eyed is right. And Deldoc,a physician who hiked the trail multiple times, said even that high a temperature isn't really necessary. I think he argued that 165 is hot enough to kill harmful things, but since I don't recall his precise words, go for 185.
I think his point was that if it's hot enough to pasteurize milk, it will kill all likely harmful organisms.
Google tells me this is what the Province of Ontario requires:
63° C for not less than 30 min.,
72° C for not less than 16 sec.,
I'll let you do the math for farenheit. But boiling is 100 degrees C.
Weary
4eyed is right. And Deldoc,a physician who hiked the trail multiple times, said even that high a temperature isn't really necessary. I think he argued that 165 is hot enough to kill harmful things, but since I don't recall his precise words, go for 185.
I think his point was that if it's hot enough to pasteurize milk, it will kill all likely harmful organisms.
Weary
Good post, Weary. Something to think about.
CoyoteWhips
12-24-2007, 12:26
You don't even have to boil it. Just bring it to over 185 F for a few minutes.
But unless you've packed a meat thermometer, how would you know? Boiling is a foolproof temperature indicator.
My thermometer with pocket clip weight about half and ounce.
Boiled water might still have dead giardia in it, but I don't think that changes the flavor any.
Just Jeff
12-24-2007, 12:30
I wonder if dead giardia would give you a protein boost...
take-a-knee
12-24-2007, 12:52
But unless you've packed a meat thermometer, how would you know? Boiling is a foolproof temperature indicator.
My thermometer with pocket clip weight about half and ounce.
Boiled water might still have dead giardia in it, but I don't think that changes the flavor any.
I think water is 180+F or so when you see champagne bubbles in the pot, maybe a stovie could weigh in on that. The only microorganism by-product you need be concerned with is exotoxin from certain (Gram-pos) bacteria. Staph (classic food poisoning) and botulism (kill you dead food poisoning).
Boiling is "better" than filtering. Boiling kills viruses (or renders them harmless) but filtering doesn't. There's no need to filter the water that you cook with, if that water is going to be boiled first.
Hikes in Rain
12-24-2007, 13:03
Some filters (such as the First Need) use activated carbon as a filtering agent. That will remove dissolved organics and other contaminants, if that's a problem with the water source. The First Need will take raw sewage or industrial waste and make drinking water out of it, albeit not for long. And I'm not sure, having said that, that I'd actually drink what came out, just on general principles!
As has been pointed out, that level of treatment is usually overkill for AT water sources. If you're cooking with the water, that's all the treatment you need.
As long as the water was moving and clear, I wouldn't bother to treat or filter it.
That would seem intuitive -- and that's generally where I take my water from, if there's a choice.
But I've read that lake water -- taken from just below the surface -- is safer. The reasoning given is that the UV from sunlight kills the potentially harmful microorganisms. I'm not 100% convinced of that myself, but it's something to think about.
Some critter might have died or taken a dump upstream of that clear, moving water. Ya never know... ;) If it's a true spring -- ie., I can see the water coming out of the ground -- I might take a pass on filtering it.
4eyedbuzzard
12-24-2007, 13:18
For cooking, I just turn off the stove when it gets those pre-boiling "champaign bubbles". For AT purposes altitude isn't a big concern either even though water boils at a slightly lower temp(205F at 4000ft, 201F at 6000 ft). Most foods will reconstitute fine even at slightly lower temps(use a lid and/or cozy). You really can save a lot of fuel by not bringing it to a full rolling boil and by using a lid to reduce evaporative/steam losses(the steam condenses on the lid and returns the heat to the system to some degree). Any time the water actually boils and steams you are simply throwing away fuel/heat in the form of steam that serves no purpose.
I'm guessing UL alcohol stove users could experiment prior to field use with their "dosage" size of fuel to get an amount that would yield the best fuel efficiency. Start with the normal water load at the expected temp. Use a little more alcohol if the water is really cold or the wind is up.
dessertrat
12-24-2007, 15:18
Both kill or remove germs, but remember that boiling water removes a lot of oxygen from it, so if you are going to drink it after it cools down, it will not taste as good as unboiled water. Shaking it up to restore some oxygen will improve the taste a little.
take-a-knee
12-24-2007, 15:59
That would seem intuitive -- and that's generally where I take my water from, if there's a choice.
But I've read that lake water -- taken from just below the surface -- is safer. The reasoning given is that the UV from sunlight kills the potentially harmful microorganisms. I'm not 100% convinced of that myself, but it's something to think about.
Some critter might have died or taken a dump upstream of that clear, moving water. Ya never know... ;) If it's a true spring -- ie., I can see the water coming out of the ground -- I might take a pass on filtering it.
I meant to say I wouldn't treat or filter if you boiled it, that would be overkill. I'm a rookie paddler, and I've read a lot of stuff by Cliff Jacobsen, he's pretty much the Calvin Rustrum/canoe voyageur guru of our time. He says the same thing about water from the middle of wilderness lakes, and he hasn't treated it for years without a problem. Microbes, especially the ones that cause disease, like to cling to organic matter, they don't typically float around in solution unless something stirs them up. I'd never heard the UV angle, but it makes perfect sense.
turtle fast
12-24-2007, 17:01
You have to remember that Cliff Jacobsen primarily paddles the Boundry waters park in MN, and Quetico Provincal Park in Canada. The lakes there are known for being low in suspended organic material in the water..especialy in the middle. I ran into many folks in Atikokan, Canada on the Northern side of Quetico Provincal Park who commonly just dip their mugs in the middle and drink. This being said though, Lake Superior was the same way until cryptosporidia was found in the lake. In fact, Rangers at the Porcupine Mountains State Park in upper Michigan had to cut the supply of drinking water from the campground spigots and truck in tanks of water.
Cliff Jacobsen rules!!! I have canoed Quetico and the boundry waters. The last one was a 10 day trip in quetico and was miles from the next person...and saw no one for much of the canoe trip.
oh christ! :rolleyes: tripleG, just boil the water and eat. don't worry what all the experts have to say
DITTO!!! I do it every time I am out and cook. Haven't killed over yet. :D
I boil all my water first. To kill all germs. In the water i put a chunk of charcoal from the fire and let it roll around in the water for a while. The idea here is that the carbon will react with any chemicals. Then to finish it off i filter it with my katadin filter. This way no contaminted water ever touches my filter. Boiling water in, filtered water out. I Dont have to worry about molds or nastys growing in my filter.
refreeman
01-26-2008, 18:52
boiling water take more time and cost much fuel. Filtering is less expensive, in effort and expense.
Bulldawg
01-26-2008, 18:57
I wonder if dead giardia would give you a protein boost...
Exactly what I was wondering as I was reading this post.
I don’t have concerns about fuel usage with a wood-burning stove.
Nearly Normal
01-27-2008, 10:03
Boiled water might still have dead giardia in it, but I don't think that changes the flavor any.
Two thoughts.
A new bottled flavor water idea geared to hikers- Dead Giardia Flavored (so you feel like you are on the trail). 2 kinds, floaties or non floaties.
If boiled water with dead giardia in it is allowed to sit a while won't they decompose and cause another type of "nasty".
Last thought.
Boiled water taste mighty flat.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-27-2008, 10:14
Water that is raised to 165F for ten minutes will kill everything. Water that is raised to 212F for three minutes will kill everything. Hence, raising your water to the point when it boils (212F) and then cozying it will kill everything because it will stay above 165F for ten minutes. It is the most fuel efficient way to boil water to kill nasties. The only filtering I ever do on water to be boiled is thru a bandanna to get the floaties and sand.
I don’t have concerns about fuel usage with a wood-burning stove.
But it's not practical to fire up the stove at each water source. Nor is it practical to boil, and then carry a day's worth of water.
... Lake Superior...until cryptosporidia was found in the lake. In fact, Rangers at the Porcupine Mountains State Park in upper Michigan had to cut the supply of drinking water from the campground spigots and truck in tanks of water...
That is the unfortunate trend. Isle Royale National Park is the same,
http://www.isle.royale.national-park.com/camping.htm#water
Drinking Water Water not obtained from the spigots at Rock Harbor or Washington (http://www.isle.royale.national-park.com/camping.htm#) Creek Campground/Windigo area must be considered contaminated with eggs of the hydatid tapeworm and bacteria and requires special care. Boil water for two minutes or filter through a 25 micron water filter.
And this data is possibly dated, as I have not been up there lately. Perhaps, their spigots too, are now considered contaminated.
Boil/filter/treat?
Gotta do, what one is most comfortable with.
HYOH.:sun
First Look: MSR HyperFlow Microfilter
Trailspace Review on the new MSR Water filter.
http://www.trailspace.com/news/2008/01/16/msr-hyperflow.html
First Look: MSR HyperFlow Microfilter
Trailspace Review on the new MSR Water filter.
http://www.trailspace.com/news/2008/01/16/msr-hyperflow.html (http://www.trailspace.com/news/2008/01/16/msr-hyperflow.html)
Great for the week-end warriors!
I'll keep my Sweetwater, freezing does not destroy it.:sun
Great for the week-end warriors!
I'll keep my Sweetwater, freezing does not destroy it.:sun
I’ve never been impressed with MSR, this looks like another poorly designed item, at least from my read of the review.
I filter first (First Need, actually a purifier), then I don't have to worry if I get a "correct" boil temp. or time. If the water's hot enough to cook the food, it's good enough if it's been filtered.
If you're going to carry a filter, why not use it every time? If not, chemical kill (kinda worries me if it'll kill things that can make me sick) or boil, or take your chances.
I’ve never been impressed with MSR, this looks like another poorly designed item, at least from my read of the review.
Funny. I've been consistently impressed with MSR since buying my Whisperlite in 1989. Their stuff isn't the lightest but it's always rugged and built to last. Whisperlites were the stove of choice for years among AT thru-hikers. Nowadays it's the MSR Pocket Rocket. The MSR Hubba remains a popular tent among thru-hikers. As to their water filters -- not perfect by any stretch, but they're the only ones I know where the filter elements are field-cleanable.
take-a-knee
01-28-2008, 00:04
Funny. I've been consistently impressed with MSR since buying my Whisperlite in 1989. Their stuff isn't the lightest but it's always rugged and built to last. Whisperlites were the stove of choice for years among AT thru-hikers. Nowadays it's the MSR Pocket Rocket. The MSR Hubba remains a popular tent among thru-hikers. As to their water filters -- not perfect by any stretch, but they're the only ones I know where the filter elements are field-cleanable.
I agree, those MSR white gas stoves have to be maintained (o rings) but they work well and used to be "ultralite".
Funny. I've been consistently impressed with MSR since buying my Whisperlite in 1989. Their stuff isn't the lightest but it's always rugged and built to last. Whisperlites were the stove of choice for years among AT thru-hikers. Nowadays it's the MSR Pocket Rocket. The MSR Hubba remains a popular tent among thru-hikers. As to their water filters -- not perfect by any stretch, but they're the only ones I know where the filter elements are field-cleanable.
I’m use to my Svea 123 it requires less maintenance in 30 years than an MSR will in a single year. I had a Whisper light and it was a pain to clean when it clogged up. I sold it at a flea market for $5.00 or $10.00 and I was thinking how the guy that bought it was getting screwed. But he made the offer. I read a lot of reviews (after I bought it) and while most seem to like it they say to have the field repair kit and it’s a good idea to have a once a year kit. Reading between the lines it’s clear that while these people love their MSR stoves, they are saying it’s going to give you problems. After all, why would they say to make sure you have the rebuild kits? I don’t even know if they have rebuild kits for my Svea, never checked, never a need to check, it works every time I have used it for over 25-years.
My Svea 123 has been the most reliable thing I have ever owned. I did and do nothing to it but fill it up with gasoline and cook, I’ve been doing this to it for 25 + years,
If you are happy with your stove that’s great, but I will not buy one again. I will say that when I called MSR on the phone to get the rebuild kit they were very professional and helpful. I wish more companies were this good in the customer service department. But it doesn’t make up for a stove that gave me problems like it did.
I’m not trying to start a big anti-MSR debate about MSR stoves, I’m just relating my experience with my Svea and MSR stoves I had.
I’m use to my Svea 123 it requires less maintenance in 30 years than an MSR will in a single year.
I ditched my Svea after a terrifying incident in the Whites. My old Whisperlite has been a faithful friend these last 19 years and has traveled some 2/3 of the length of the AT. Classic case of YMMV.
I'm a bit less enthused about my MSR water filter, mostly because of its weight and because of a few minor failures. In all but one case the failures were resolved with a quick tear-down in the field. In one case the "fix" had to wait for the next town stop. I'd gotten some crud in the threads, and it took some careful coordination (and the strength of two adult males) to get them unstuck.
I ditched my Svea after a terrifying incident in the Whites. My old Whisperlite has been a faithful friend these last 19 years and has traveled some 2/3 of the length of the AT. Classic case of YMMV.
I'm a bit less enthused about my MSR water filter, mostly because of its weight and because of a few minor failures. In all but one case the failures were resolved with a quick tear-down in the field. In one case the "fix" had to wait for the next town stop. I'd gotten some crud in the threads, and it took some careful coordination (and the strength of two adult males) to get them unstuck.
I know many people are happy with MSR and that’s great, but I was not very happy to have a stove that required me to take it apart and rebuild it (once while out backpacking, necessitating my first time using a wood fire to cook food) to keep it working as good as it should. This left me with a dislike and distrust of MSR ever since. And it seems by my reading of the Trailspace review the water filter is not that good, thus reinforcing my opinion of MSR. My opinion may be harsh to some, but I don’t trust them to work all the time every time. Many times to lighten the load I take only one stove or water filter (I use and am happy with a Katadyn Hiker filter) to use for a trip, if it fails I’m down to none. And need to improvise a replacement on the trail. So it’s nice to know what I have will work.
One size does not fit all and we all have different needs and desires for our equipment. I will not begrudge anyone for buying MSR items, after all a lot of people are happy with them.
What was the terrifying incident with your Svea? I have read where people say it can vent a big ball of flame. I could see that giving a person a fright. :eek:
I have never had a single problem with mine.
What was the terrifying incident with your Svea? I have read where people say it can vent a big ball of flame.
Pretty much. :rolleyes: Some gasket blew and it was shooting huge flames out the side. Just had to stand by and hope it burned itself out before setting the woods on fire.
Pretty much. :rolleyes: Some gasket blew and it was shooting huge flames out the side. Just had to stand by and hope it burned itself out before setting the woods on fire.
At least it was not in a tent!:eek:
envirodiver
01-28-2008, 14:59
And it seems by my reading of the Trailspace review the water filter is not that good, thus reinforcing my opinion of MSR.
I didn't read it that way. The reviewer indicated that there were potential problems with freezing, but really didn't confirm it, and an issue with a connection to the bottle. Since there was incorrect info in the review (stated that there were no filters that removed virus...First Need does) it makes me suspicious of their expertise. Everything else sounded like a good review...fast pumping rates, easy to pump, lightweight, small.
But as you say...to each their own. Hard to let go of an old trail friend that has served well.
I'm suspicious of the review but not for a different reason. From my experience with the Katadyn Hiker Pro -- it's wicked "fast" and easy as long as you're dealing with a fresh, clean filter element. Not so much once the filter element gets clogged.
Other filters (eg., the current MSRs) use a ceramic filter element instead of paper. The ceramic filter makes it slower and harder to pump, but it's field-cleanable. From my experience, that's a "necessary" tradeoff. Admittedly, my own experience with the Hiker Pro is less favorable than most other reports I've read.
iliketacos
01-28-2008, 16:04
The hiker pro is the best filter on the market-accept for the weight which is offset by its ease of use and super flow. BUT*** if you don't know how to keep it clean it will kick your butt when your out in the field. I would recommend finding the dirtiest muddle puddle and using it as a training tool. If you can get the hang of the hiker pro you will probably be offering to filter other peoples water as they lay exhausted trying filter with their fangled devices. Also, sleep with your filter as it will freeze in cold weather, no fun chipping the ice out of the in/out flow ports unless you like to humor the gods.
I boil all my water first. To kill all germs. In the water i put a chunk of charcoal from the fire and let it roll around in the water for a while. The idea here is that the carbon will react with any chemicals. Then to finish it off i filter it with my katadin filter. This way no contaminted water ever touches my filter. That's it? And you drink that?
Whoa!
Not nearly enough! You should treat the water with aqua mira after boiling but before the charcoal treatment, put an idodine tablet in after the charcoad treatment but before the filtering, and then use a steripen. Then you can drink it out of the cup you wiped clean with your sweaty bandana after dinner last night .
hiker pro is my choice for a filter. I use my nalgene to dip the water, then let it settle, then filter off the top 2/3.Your filter will last a long time if you take care of it.
Nightwalker
01-29-2008, 15:33
Seems to me boiling is safest method to ensure safe drinking water, no chance of cross contamination, but it's just so inconvient.
But don't listen to me because I don't treat water, drink it straight from the source.
That's my favorite! However, if I feel "iffy" about the water--a very rare case--I just add 2-3 drops of Extra Strength Clorox and shake it up. At 60-70 degrees, 2 drops works in 30 minutes, 3 works in 15. Blow the air off the top of the water before drinking it, and you hardly taste/smell it.
The only time that I do this is if the water is slow or swampy. YMMV, however, and by all means HYOH. :)
Nightwalker
01-29-2008, 15:35
Boiling water won't sterilize it, but it will make it safe to drink (potable). As long as the water was moving and clear, I wouldn't bother to treat or filter it.
Unless it's full of peanut butter!!! :D
88BlueGT
02-07-2008, 02:34
I have never treated water if I knew I was going to use it for a meal (and boil it). I used to drink straight from streams but the last time I was up at DWG the water source was completely green... kind of freaked me out a little bit. Ehh I drank it anyway though, tasted ok :)
Wise Old Owl
02-15-2008, 22:49
I know many people are happy with MSR and that’s great, but I was not very happy to have a stove that required me to take it apart and rebuild it (once while out backpacking, necessitating my first time using a wood fire to cook food) to keep it working as good as it should. This left me with a dislike and distrust of MSR ever since. And it seems by my reading of the Trailspace review the water filter is not that good, thus reinforcing my opinion
What was the terrifying incident with your Svea? I have read where people say it can vent a big ball of flame. I could see that giving a person a fright. :eek:
I have never had a single problem with mine.
The Svea dried out on the various O rings and jetted out a side. I was testing it after it sat in my dad's attic for a few years and I was on the drive way. Well it was a wake up call about where to store this stuff and I have been very careful about it. I replaced my dad's Svea since then as a Christmas gift and I will never get that heavy thing again. Pocket Rocket and alky stoves all the way baby.
take-a-knee
02-15-2008, 23:54
The Svea dried out on the various O rings and jetted out a side. I was testing it after it sat in my dad's attic for a few years and I was on the drive way. Well it was a wake up call about where to store this stuff and I have been very careful about it. I replaced my dad's Svea since then as a Christmas gift and I will never get that heavy thing again. Pocket Rocket and alky stoves all the way baby.
Svea...O rings? MSR's have several o rings, Svea's have a brass tube with a wick in it. I'll bet your cap wasn't on tight, or the gasket on the cap was missing and flame got to the tank. Climbers have rediscovered the Svea, cause it is only a couple of ounces heavier than an MSR and a lot more reliable.
The fuel cap on the Svea is designed to blow when there's too much pressure in the tank. The resulting pyrotechnics are supposed to be fabulous. Were you using the minipump? I have heard that overpressuring the tank -- which is easy to do with the minipump -- can result in fireworks. Never saw it myself, and hope I never do. DGG
boiling is fine. ask all the people in new orleans who were w/o power for a month and had to use their charcoal grills to heat water to cook/drink. think that water didn't have nasties in it before heating? hehe