Winter hiking

[10-K]

For those of you who followed me and my son's first AT hike last week you know we had a pretty good time. In March we're planning Damascus to Erwin and if that goes well we're going to try Springer-Hot Springs when school gets out. That's the plan at this point. Meanwhile, I'm going to do some solo section hiking with ranges of 30-50 miles to learn our equipment and things we need to tweak, modify, eliminate, etc. before we launch off on longer trips - basically just get some experience under my belt.

His schedule is fixing to get busy with school and all but I've still got some time off and was thinking of going on a solo hike from Devil Fork Gap to Hot Springs (about 34 miles) next week. The long range forecast is showing high's in the mid 30's and lows in the upper teens at 2100' elevation. Leaving Devil Fork Gap at 8:00am would put me camping out the first night somewhere in the the 4000-4500' range so I'm figuring low teens at night.

I've got a Sierra Designs Light Year 1 person 3 season tent and a North Face Blaze 20 bag. I've got appropriate long underwear and warm layers of down and fleece to sleep in.

My question is, am I making a mistake going when it's this cold? I don't want to get up on top of a mountain and be miserable. I tolerate cold pretty well but I've also never slept outside when it's 10 degrees.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks
Thomas

[BackTrack1]

i would plan on it being alot colder at 4000' than you may think, youd better get a warmer sleeping bag, you have to consider wind chill also, plus your 3 season tent probably has too much ventilation for winter and also the poles may not stand up to the wind you will experience, if you dont want to be miserable , definatally get a warmer bag or a liner for the inside of your bag, you'll be glad you did, theres nothing worse than being cold and not have anyway to get warm miles from a road or shelter.

just my thoughts.

Backtrack1

[Marta]

Backpacking in the cold can be lots of fun...if you're prepared. The snow and ice look magical. You probably know a lot of the following tips, but here goes...

One of the big challenges is keeping your water flowing. I'd take the much-maligned Nalgene bottles. You can put boiling water in them. If they freeze solid, you can immerse them in a pot of boiling water to thaw them out.

Canister stoves can be unreliable in the cold. (This is personal experience. I've had one work at zero; and the same stove, different canister, fail at 30. If I hadn't been with other people who had alcohol stoves I would have been SOL.) A white gas or alcohol stove will be better. Bring lots of fuel. Lots. A hot drink is a marvellous warmer-upper. In fact, if it's really cold, I tend to drink only hot drinks.

Bring extra food. One of the surest ways to bonk, and get very tired and chilled, is to run out of calories. On my coldest AT night (zero, with high winds) I ate a hot meal at 5 pm, another one at 8 pm, and got up at 5 am and ate more hot food.

If your water is going to freeze solid at night (below 20), pour your cooking pot full before you go to bed. That way you can just light the stove in the morning without messing around trying to smash up ice in your bottles.

You can make yourself a lot wamer by choosing the right campsite for your tent. Set up behind a windbreak, on a thick bed of leaves. Pile dry leaves along the windward side of your tent to block to airflow. Make sure you have a lot of insulation underneath you so the cold earth doesn't suck out your heat.

Hats are crucial. Bring more than one. You can layer knit caps for extra warmth.

You might want to carry a chemical handwarmer pack with you. If your hands become non-functional, you can use this to restore them to usefullness.

Lack of daylight can be a problem this time of year. I carry two, or even three, light sources in the winter. Sometimes I carry a candle lantern because it provides light and warmth for my hands.

Have a good hike!

[Tipi Walter]

There are many threads devoted to this subject, I think I've participated in at least 4 in the last 3 months.

You didn't mention the sleeping pad you'll be taking--important consideration when laying on the ground.

The hardest part for me is packing up in the morning and leaving a perfectly good(WARM)campsite. With it comes an inertia to stay put and not move and this is where ample fuel and Nalgenes filled with hot water comes into play. Plus, your water filter will not be functional so extra stove fuel needs to be humped just to provide drinking water, etc. Marta's suggestion of having a pot of water ready in the morning is a good one, just set it on the stove and wait. Nothing worse than a frozen Nalgene.

Hot water bottles in the morning help to thaw out the boots and warm fingers and face. A small candle also can work wonders on a long winter trip.

I've learned thru trial and much error to have a goose down bag rated to -15 or -20 degrees. Cuz when the temps hit ZERO you can stay warm thru the night with such a bag, simple as that.

As far as tent placement, I usually voluntarily go to places where it's windy and cold and don't particularly want to get out of the wind and away from Miss Nature's ragings. To be with her on the high ground requires a heavier four season tent with many guylines and ample stakes. Combined with winter clothing, a thicker pad and a heavier bag, more fuel and extra food, pack weight on a winter trip can start to exceed most people's idea of fun. But this all depends on how long you'll be out without resupply. Here's a pic of my most recent winter trip(decked out in two hats and down jacket):

[sasquatch2014]

another item with the water is with the Nalgene type of bottles you can pour hot water into them. To not loose energy ie body warmth heating up a cold sleeping bag heat water for your bottle get it nice and warm and put it in your bag a head of you. that way you are climbing into a warm bag, mmmmm toasty. I have done the pot thing but not with water but with my left over second cup of coffe from the night before. this helps cut down on the time before my morning fix.

[JAK]

For those of you who followed me and my son's first AT hike last week you know we had a pretty good time. In March we're planning Damascus to Erwin and if that goes well we're going to try Springer-Hot Springs when school gets out. That's the plan at this point. Meanwhile, I'm going to do some solo section hiking with ranges of 30-50 miles to learn our equipment and things we need to tweak, modify, eliminate, etc. before we launch off on longer trips - basically just get some experience under my belt.

His schedule is fixing to get busy with school and all but I've still got some time off and was thinking of going on a solo hike from Devil Fork Gap to Hot Springs (about 34 miles) next week. The long range forecast is showing high's in the mid 30's and lows in the upper teens at 2100' elevation. Leaving Devil Fork Gap at 8:00am would put me camping out the first night somewhere in the the 4000-4500' range so I'm figuring low teens at night.

I've got a Sierra Designs Light Year 1 person 3 season tent and a North Face Blaze 20 bag. I've got appropriate long underwear and warm layers of down and fleece to sleep in.

My question is, am I making a mistake going when it's this cold? I don't want to get up on top of a mountain and be miserable. I tolerate cold pretty well but I've also never slept outside when it's 10 degrees.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks
ThomasThe only way to learn to sleep outside when it's 10 degrees is to sleep outside when it's 10 degrees. Don't go early despite the cold. Only go early if you want to experience it. Once you've decided you want to experience it, begin by doing it close to home, or close to the car, and develop the knowledge and skills from there. But if you are always trying to be warm and happy it is inevitable that you should never be so.

[10-K]

Good tips - thanks...

Today I picked up a North Face Pyxis 0 bag and an alcohol stove.

My 2 biggest worries are being able to cook and not freezing to death - both of these new items should be a step in the right direction - I'm not 100% sold on the stove.

It's an interesting piece of equipment. It takes just under 9 minutes to bring 2 cups of room temperature water to a roiling boil (and I'm at sea level...). That's about twice as long as it takes my iso-butane stove. Looks like it'll burn about 20 minutes on 1 "tank".

I've got some canisters of "4 season" iso-butane fuel - is this marketing hype?

Thanks
Thomas

[JAK]

It's all hype until you try it yourself. ;)
I think if you get good with an alcohol stove you can make it work for you.
I'm not good with an alcohol stove, but I'm pretty good with a Kelly Kettle.

Try and get good at conserving fuel, but not to the point of not using the stove. Don't just use it for cooking. Try and use it for every drop you drink. Tea. Coffee. Lemonaid. Poweraid. Be sure and bring plenty of fuel so that you can do this. Abstinance will not make you a better lover. Don't be afraid to mess around with a simple hobbo stove now and then also. Fidelity will not make you a better lover either. Your alcohol stove will forgive you. ;)

[4eyedbuzzard]

Get the canisters with the highest proportion of propane to isobutane mix. Warm the canisters under your jacket prior to using. Sleep with them at night. Cut a small piece of foam pad to set the canister on while cooking. Bring 3 to 4 times as much fuel as you would for a summer hike. Have an extra day's survival food/fuel ration. For sleeping warm purposes, plan for temperatures 10 to 15 degrees lower than you already think based upon the forecast. Weather can change, local micro-climate effects happen, and you simply cannot afford to be wrong.

[Marta]

Another possibility with the stove (I realize it's a bit late, since you've already bought the alcohol stove) is to take your canister stove, and take four or six Esbit tablets along as backup. The canisters will probably work. I've used one many times in cold weather, and only had two failures, spaced out over several years.

Esbit tablets are buggers to light. It helps to put a squirt of Purell on them.

[traildust]

Great tips. I am 95 percent sure I am starting my thru hike in january. Call me crazy. Want to be the first to be first in maine. Anyway. I use a jetboil and alcohol. both worked well. stay warm look for me maybe frozen in time somewhere. kidding.
traildust

[Tinker]

WIND CHILL. The Lightyear might not stop spindrift from blowing in all over you and your sleeping bag, either. A tent with no mesh down low, or closeable windows would be better. Cool breezes in the summer are wonderful. In the winter, not so much.
I agree that you need more sleeping bag, too.

[Tinker]

Great tips. I am 95 percent sure I am starting my thru hike in january. Call me crazy. Want to be the first to be first in maine. Anyway. I use a jetboil and alcohol. both worked well. stay warm look for me maybe frozen in time somewhere. kidding.
traildust
First thruhiker north gets all the blackflies!!!!!!!!!!!:banana :banana :rolleyes:

[4eyedbuzzard]

I am starting my thru hike in january. Call me crazy.

You're crazy.

[shelterbuilder]

On the subject of sleeping pads - you never did mention what you've got. Make sure that it's at least as long as you are tall (a bit longer is better, especially if you slide around at night), and the thicker, the better. I still use a 1/2 inch thick ensolite pad in the winter - it's as old as the hills, but it hasn't let me down yet. (Or try 2 3/8 inch thick blue Wally World pads fastened on top of each other - that's 3/4 of an inch of insulation under you!)

Plan on wearing your knit cap to bed - make sure it's the kind with enough material to pull down over the back of your neck, too.

During the day, while you're hiking, make sure to VENTILATE to get rid of as much perspiration as possible. Take layers off and/or unbutton/unzip until you are comfortably cool when you walk; reverse this when you stop. If you notice yourself SWEATING, either slow your pace or remove more clothing. That's the key to staying dry (and ultimately, not freezing).

Can't offer advice on the alcy stove (just got one myself), but play with it at home LOTS before you try to use it in the field.

Remember - winter hiking is FUN when everything works right. It's really the best season!

[sasquatch2014]

Heck it is the winter hikers who are the ones that get all the views. I have heard very few of us say "if it weren't for the leaves I'd have a good view"

[Smile]

True, less leaves equal better views, but warmer is sometimes a more enjoyable hike :)

[Quagmire]

i am headed out with a big agnes sleeping pad (2.5 inches thick i believe)..should that be adequate for ground protection. I am also going with a WM 20 degree bag, silk liner, and a down quilt, plus the usual warm clothing, down sweater, fleece pants, fleece jacket, smart wool baselayers and 10-15 hand warmers. this stuff is just for night warmth, i feel more than fine with my day hiking gear. I am sleeping in a SL SH 1, the pad takes up every last inch of ground space on this thing so i can NOT fall off :) which is a bonus.

[Quagmire]

PS...i leave on january 31st. nobo

[10-K]

I've got a Thermarest Z-lite (the orange accordian fold-up kind). Not a lot of pad but I was thinking of putting one of those emergency space blankets on the floor of the tent to reflect my body heat back up.

Sounds like a good theory - wonder if it'll work? ;-)


Thanks,
Thomas

[V8]

All our hiking is that cold right now, and the main hassle is sweating: even with careful ventilation (as a previous post mentioned), you get really sweated up. No problem with day hiking - put on a warm jacket at lunch break, take it off to hike back to car...etc. But camping out, the hassle becomes hazard if
1) it takes longer to find your campsite than you thought, or
2) it starts to snow and footing is very much poorer than you estimated, or
3) you decide to push on instead of stopping to warm up/eat/etc and so
when you get to camp you are way exhausted, way cold, and fingers are numb and don't work well, the lighter doesn't work and matches need someplace dry to strike, your companion is even colder and number and depending on you to set things up, then the snow turns to rain...etc.

Just food for thought. Definitely camp out near home to test the systems before going up high and remote.
And, it is Beautiful in the snow!!

[Marta]

I've got a Thermarest Z-lite (the orange accordian fold-up kind). Not a lot of pad but I was thinking of putting one of those emergency space blankets on the floor of the tent to reflect my body heat back up.

Sounds like a good theory - wonder if it'll work? ;-)


Thanks,
Thomas

The Z pads are pretty thin. I use one and can feel the cold coming up through it at first. Over the course of a couple of hours, though, my body heat usually warms up whatever is below the pad. This is where it's helpful to 1) have body heat to spare (i.e., don't get chilled before you get in the bag and lie down) and 2) set up on a lot of dry leaves or some other surface that is insulating. If you set up on something like hard, wet ground, it'll just rob you of heat.

The space blanket will help a little, but not nearly as much as having a second sleeping pad. (Look at the R-factors of various sleeping pads. Z's don't rate very highly.)

Another thing you can do is put extra material, such as pieces of clothing or your pack, between you and cold spots, either above or below you. If your feet are cold and you have an extra hat, you can put your feet in that hat, down inside your sleeping bag. If your shoulder is cold, either above or below you, can you fold up your rain jacket and put it between you and the cold.

If you're cold, you'll have lots of time to play with this, since you won't be sleeping.:D

[10-K]

BTW, I'm planning to carry denatured alcohol in a 4 oz plastic bottle with a "flip lip" (like on a shampoo bottle). It makes it easy to squirt out enough alcohol to fill the stove without making a mess.

Any problems here?

Thomas

[Marta]

BTW, I'm planning to carry denatured alcohol in a 4 oz plastic bottle with a "flip lip" (like on a shampoo bottle). It makes it easy to squirt out enough alcohol to fill the stove without making a mess.

Any problems here?

Thomas

Probably not. It's worth a test ahead of time to see that the bottle doesn't leak when turned upside down, sideways, and is jostled.

I also carry a medicine measuring cup to measure out the alcohol. With alcohol stoves, it takes some practice to avoid wasting a good bit of fuel. Either you put in too little, and the water doesn't come to a boil, or you put in too much. Four ounces of alcohol may give you as few as four two-cup water boils. (It took a long time for me to change from a canister stove to alcohol because I found the waste of fuel and fooling around to be so irritating.)

FWIW, I usually put non-drinking alcohol in a green Sprite bottle. It's a different color and shape than the bottles I use for drinking liquids.

I realize this is all sounding ridiculously complicated. It isn't. You'll do fine, and have a great time.

[brotheral]

I would definitely use a convertible (3-4 season) or a 4 season tent. You need to keep as much warmth as possible in the tent.. I used a Mountain Hardware Skyview 2 (convertible), which they don't make any longer, when it was 9 degrees. I was sure glad to be able to zip panels over the screen mesh. My girlfriend and I split carrying this tent. There are lighter tent options today.
Happy Trails:welcome BrotherAL

[Alligator]

Is that 4 fluid oz of alcohol? That's a very small amount for a winter trip. You will have little available for any extra hot drinks, hot breakfasts, or for making hot water bottles. Also, firing an alcohol stove is easy but not wasting fuel takes a little practice.

I'm not sure if you bought the alcohol stove for later use. If you were just buying a stove for the winter, a white gas stove would have been a better choice.

[mixinmaster]

The LightYear is a 3 season tent. Lot of Mesh. But your bag and pad is more important. I would suggest a bag liner no matter what bag you take. I took the LightYear early this gear from GA>VA. It withstood the biggest test down from Tray Mtn. on tax day, 4/15. Anyone out at this time on the trail should remember. Although the temps were only 20 F or so, the winds were brutal. Consistent 35-40+ with gusts up near hurricane force. All day. All night. Couple of inches blowing up, down, and sideways too........... I was fine, but did hunker down behind a big pine in the swag a couple of miles N. of the summit of Tray. If I couldn't afford another tent, I'd not worry. I'd concentrate on bag, liner, pad, space blanket, and extra clothing, and site selection. Oh, and my homemade alcohol stove worked in that weather when other pro stoves didn't.

[brotheral]

I agree that sleeping bag, pad, liner, stove... are primary concerns. I would suggest a shelter designed for use in cold / snow conditions. If you decide to do this enough to justify the expense... Happy Trails :D BrotherAL

[10-K]

Ok, here's the situation so far.... I'm going on a 2.5 day section hike and 2 of those nights will be spent on the trail at 3000-4000'. Highs during the day are forecast to be 39-40 degrees. Nights are forecast to be 14-17 degrees.

Clothing: 3 layers of clothing - the bottom 2 layers could easily be worn during sleep, heavy thermal underwear, tobogggan, balaclava, gloves and heavy-warm socks.

Sleeping: 0 degree North Face Pyxis bag, Thermorest Z-lite pad and space blanket. Sleeping in a Sierra Designs Light Year single person tent.

Stove: Giga Power Canister stove (Jet Boil fuel) - 2 canisters. Alcohol stove with 4 oz alcohol. Since the lows are usually hit in the hours before dawn I'm thinking that the alcohol stove will be used primarily for the 2 breakfasts and I'll use the canister stove for the evening meal since it'll probably be in the 20's-30's still and the fuel will have been in my pack.

Hopefully this is enough to keep me alive and in relative comfort for 2 and half days. Please let me know if I'm missing anything obvious.

Thomas

[Alligator]

...
Stove: Giga Power Canister stove (Jet Boil fuel) - 2 canisters. Alcohol stove with 4 oz alcohol. Since the lows are usually hit in the hours before dawn I'm thinking that the alcohol stove will be used primarily for the 2 breakfasts and I'll use the canister stove for the evening meal since it'll probably be in the 20's-30's still and the fuel will have been in my pack.
...ThomasI think you are being overly redundant with the two stoves. Just bring more alcohol if you are worried about using the canister. You can put the alcohol in a coke bottle. Unless you are looking to test things out?

I find wooden matches helpful if using an alcohol stove in winter, or dip a smill twig in the fuel and then light it. No biggie, just takes a second or two longer. What kind of alcohol stove is it?

I like to bring a plastic mug in the winter for hot drinks, if you are so inclined.

[Marta]

Sounds like a good plan. I haven't had any experience with the Jet Boil, but two canisters seems like a lot. Maybe one new, full canister, with the alcohol stove as backup if the Jet Boil either fails, or you run out of fuel.

Your clothing, bag, and other gear sounds about like what I'd take for similar weather conditions, and I get cold easily.

Have a great hike!

[coss]

You might consider adding another pad as a layer above or below the Z-rest. Although bulky, a Walmart blue pad or equiv doesn't weigh much compared to the sum of the other winter gear, and without it, you may find yourself in a position I truly dread: trapped in my bag on a cold night with the ground sucking heat out of me when I've already used the pack, stuff sacks, etc, as insulation under a too-thin pad.

As others have observed, winter hiking can be pretty special. A memory: several coyotes trading howls for ten minutes just as the sun went down, close by my camp. They must have known I was there, but simply didn't care. The man-modified world seemed very far away.

Coss

[Tipi Walter]

You might consider adding another pad as a layer above or below the Z-rest. Although bulky, a Walmart blue pad or equiv doesn't weigh much compared to the sum of the other winter gear, and without it, you may find yourself in a position I truly dread: trapped in my bag on a cold night with the ground sucking heat out of me when I've already used the pack, stuff sacks, etc, as insulation under a too-thin pad.

As others have observed, winter hiking can be pretty special. A memory: several coyotes trading howls for ten minutes just as the sun went down, close by my camp. They must have known I was there, but simply didn't care. The man-modified world seemed very far away.

Coss

My biggest reason for going out in the winter is to find that certain white landscape before man blundered in on the scene. In a fierce blizzard, time reverses itself and the mad march called progress stops. I was living in a tipi in the mountains of NC when the Blizzard of '93 hit and immediately went back 10,000 years, at least for a few days. No jets roaring overhead, no car traffic or the nagging whine of motorcycles, just the windy, cold Earth like it used to be.

[Wolf - 23000]

I've got a Thermarest Z-lite (the orange accordian fold-up kind). Not a lot of pad but I was thinking of putting one of those emergency space blankets on the floor of the tent to reflect my body heat back up.

Sounds like a good theory - wonder if it'll work? ;-)


Thanks,
Thomas

Thomas,

Putting down a emergency space blanket is not going to do you any good. In order for the blankets on the floor of the tent to reflect your body heat back up you would have to be laying directly on top of it. You would also be freezing doing it as well. Do yourself a favor if your going to use an emergency blanket for warmth put it at least inside your sleeping bag.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

My biggest reason for going out in the winter is to find that certain white landscape before man blundered in on the scene. In a fierce blizzard, time reverses itself and the mad march called progress stops. I was living in a tipi in the mountains of NC when the Blizzard of '93 hit and immediately went back 10,000 years, at least for a few days. No jets roaring overhead, no car traffic or the nagging whine of motorcycles, just the windy, cold Earth like it used to be.


Well put.

Wolf