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Captn
01-06-2008, 00:01
Based on the unfortunate events unfolding around Blood mountain .... I would like to make a suggestion that everyone make a habit of jotting down the license plate numbers of other cars they see in trailhead parking lots.

The past year has shown that some crazies are looking to the trail as a good place to hunt for victims.

We, the other hikers on the trail, need to form a sort of "neighborhood watch", fitting nicely with the way that hikers tend to look out for each other already.

If a bad guy thinks that there's more than an even chance that someone will take note of his license number at the trailhead, then it's that much less likely that this disturbing trend of crime on the trail will continue.

So .... just so that everyone knows .... I'll be making a habit of taking a picture with my camera phone of other cars at whatever trailhead i visit, including their license numbers, from now on, on every trail I visit.

If nothing else, It would be nice to know what other cars were there if you return and find your car vandalized .....

other opinions are welcome.

Texasgirl
01-06-2008, 00:09
I hike and trail run alone - Colorado, Texas, Ohio, soon sections of the AT. I have thought about this case all day and what I can do. She was hiker experienced, a runner, left a note, martial arts and a dog... this would seem to be good, to be enough. I'm sad (and pray for everyone touched). I'm also pissed. The implications to me as an alone female is disconcerting. I just want to enjoy the outdoors and not be fearful. Alas. I plan to always leave a note at my house, tell family where I'm hiking; buying mace; always have my cell phone; watch surroundings; don't be so trusting of others; put my security above my natural tendency to be friendly and nice. It's a hard lesson to learn. If someone has other suggestions, please add.

River Runner
01-06-2008, 00:41
Good idea Cap'n. I probably should start doing this when I park anywhere. A few weeks ago someone pushed a shopping cart up against my car, and a couple of weeks ago a unsecured sign blew into it. It would have been nice to have a way of determining if the people parked near me saw anything in both of these cases.

take-a-knee
01-06-2008, 01:53
I hike and trail run alone - Colorado, Texas, Ohio, soon sections of the AT. I have thought about this case all day and what I can do. She was hiker experienced, a runner, left a note, martial arts and a dog... this would seem to be good, to be enough. I'm sad (and pray for everyone touched). I'm also pissed. The implications to me as an alone female is disconcerting. I just want to enjoy the outdoors and not be fearful. Alas. I plan to always leave a note at my house, tell family where I'm hiking; buying mace; always have my cell phone; watch surroundings; don't be so trusting of others; put my security above my natural tendency to be friendly and nice. It's a hard lesson to learn. If someone has other suggestions, please add.

A 9mm automatic or a lightweight 38special and plenty of range time with professional instruction in combat pistol craft/tactics. All the things you listed won't help you if the evil day greets you, it may aid in recovering your corpse.

Darwin again
01-06-2008, 02:18
Carrying a gun won't keep anyone from being lured into a van and then bludgeoned to death by a convincing lunatic before he or she has the chance to react.

Sly
01-06-2008, 02:30
A 9mm automatic or a lightweight 38special and plenty of range time with professional instruction in combat pistol craft/tactics. All the things you listed won't help you if the evil day greets you, it may aid in recovering your corpse.

It's well over a million to one you'd ever need a gun to protect yourself on he trail. Most people will take their chances.

That said, even long distance hikers don't like camping near roads, because of the problems with locals, so for a day hiker it may make more sense.

greentick
01-06-2008, 02:37
When one of the guys on my old team retired (that would be Bob dG, Glen) we gave him a little 5 shot 22LR revolver. Don't weigh but a few ounces. Won't stop a bear but would work well on a mad dog or a two legger bent on doing you harm. As noted in post 4 practice practice practice.

Spastic
01-06-2008, 04:06
Wow. All I can say is that while you're busy assuming that every car parked at the trailhead belongs to a potential criminal and is worthy of photographing, I'll be out hiking, enjoying the scenery. And I'll let you in on something: the person arousing the most suspicion at a trailhead is going to be the fellow lurking in the parking lot taking pictures of all the cars. :rolleyes:

TOW
01-06-2008, 06:04
From my own experience, if someone has you as a target and is determined to "get you" all of the evasive tactics you use may or "may not" help you survive.

Jimmers
01-06-2008, 07:12
A 9mm automatic or a lightweight 38special and plenty of range time with professional instruction in combat pistol craft/tactics. All the things you listed won't help you if the evil day greets you, it may aid in recovering your corpse.

I'm sure that Texasgirl will find that very reassuring.

Let's face some facts here. No matter what we do to ensure our own safety as hikers, there are no guarantees that even if we do everything perfectly, even if we all were to carry a firearm, that we wouldn't be injured or even killed by someone we meet on or near a trail. They already have an idea what they're going to do; we on the other hand are usually caught off guard and surprised when the unthinkable happens. All that we can do is evaluate the risks and decide how we want to prepare to meet them. If carrying a firearm is the only thing that will keep your peace of mind, then that's what works for you.

But try and keep things in perspective. Despite all the media coverage these events receive, just how at risk are hikers for these kinds of crimes? I would have to say the risk is pretty low, so low that it isn't worth dwelling on every time you think about going hiking. By all means be wary of people you get a strange feeling about, but don't let the actions of a very few destroy your enjoyment of the outdoors.

But that's just my way of thinking. Come to your own conclusions.

drumbeat
01-06-2008, 08:24
[quote=Jimmers;492589]I'm sure that Texasgirl will find that very reassuring.

Let's face some facts here. No matter what we do to ensure our own safety as hikers, there are no guarantees that even if we do everything perfectly, even if we all were to carry a firearm, that we wouldn't be injured or even killed by someone we meet on or near a trail. They already have an idea what they're going to do; we on the other hand are usually caught off guard and surprised when the unthinkable happens. All that we can do is evaluate the risks and decide how we want to prepare to meet them. If carrying a firearm is the only thing that will keep your peace of mind, then that's what works for you.

But try and keep things in perspective. Despite all the media coverage these events receive, just how at risk are hikers for these kinds of crimes? I would have to say the risk is pretty low, so low that it isn't worth dwelling on every time you think about going hiking. By all means be wary of people you get a strange feeling about, but don't let the actions of a very few destroy your enjoyment of the outdoors.

But that's just my way of thinking. Come to your own conclusions.[/quot

This is the smartest advice I've read so far.

NorthCountryWoods
01-06-2008, 08:24
Here we go again.

CoyoteWhips
01-06-2008, 08:41
When the president of the United States goes for a walk, he's surrounded by a team of alert, highly trained and well armed professionals. He's still not 100% protected. Your best defense, especially for women, has always been your brain. Do what you need to, but don't let any other security measure turn that off.

Ghosthiker
01-06-2008, 08:47
Probably the best thing you could do is leave your itenary with someone, including an ETA back home.

KirkMcquest
01-06-2008, 10:16
The truth is that the things we love about being out in the woods (ie solitude, getting 'away' from it all), create the perfect conditions for a predator. You can't really have 'security' AND solitude. We just have to realize that with hiking comes risk ( as with almost any activity that's worth while).

Take steps to reduce that risk, but realize that danger will always be part of freedom.

Passionphish
01-06-2008, 10:49
I'm sure that Texasgirl will find that very reassuring.

Let's face some facts here. No matter what we do to ensure our own safety as hikers, there are no guarantees that even if we do everything perfectly, even if we all were to carry a firearm, that we wouldn't be injured or even killed by someone we meet on or near a trail. They already have an idea what they're going to do; we on the other hand are usually caught off guard and surprised when the unthinkable happens. All that we can do is evaluate the risks and decide how we want to prepare to meet them. If carrying a firearm is the only thing that will keep your peace of mind, then that's what works for you.

But try and keep things in perspective. Despite all the media coverage these events receive, just how at risk are hikers for these kinds of crimes? I would have to say the risk is pretty low, so low that it isn't worth dwelling on every time you think about going hiking. By all means be wary of people you get a strange feeling about, but don't let the actions of a very few destroy your enjoyment of the outdoors.

But that's just my way of thinking. Come to your own conclusions.

Jimmers,
Great way of thinking!!!!

I think that if we are going to stop this. We need to start with our children. Prep them over and over. Never stop teaching safety.
The other way to stop creeps, never hike alone and always confront (in a friendly manner) odd acting people at the trail head in groups. Be friendly but let people know that they have been seen. Removing their anonymity, I think, will deter them.
And if you are wrong about their intentions, then the lone hiker might be happy to have met new, friendly people who would be able to get them help should something bad happen to them!

take-a-knee
01-06-2008, 11:10
From my own experience, if someone has you as a target and is determined to "get you" all of the evasive tactics you use may or "may not" help you survive.

That is BS, people fight back every day and win, the press doesn't report it. If you've already decided to be a victim you've sealed your own fate. Our country wasn't founded or built by people with your defeatist mindset.

THere are few guarantees in life, you are right in the regard, except the guarantee that'll you'll have your arse handed to you if you are unprepared.

cowboy nichols
01-06-2008, 11:15
A few rules I have followed I hike alone 98% of the time. I don't mingle I don't hike to make friends . I avoid contact on most trails if possible,I rarely stay at a shelter and usualy stealt camp. I don't carry a gun but I do carry a knife and anytime the hair on the back of my neck rises I have it in my hand I have a dog that responds to a one word attack command. I have never had to defend myself on any trail, I have used these defence methods in urban surroundings.I will not stop hiking alone and I will not hike in fear.

KirkMcquest
01-06-2008, 11:31
A few rules I have followed I hike alone 98% of the time. I don't mingle I don't hike to make friends . I avoid contact on most trails if possible,I rarely stay at a shelter and usualy stealt camp. I don't carry a gun but I do carry a knife and anytime the hair on the back of my neck rises I have it in my hand I have a dog that responds to a one word attack command. I have never had to defend myself on any trail, I have used these defence methods in urban surroundings.I will not stop hiking alone and I will not hike in fear.

HEAR,HEAR!

I enjoy hiking alone much more than in a group. I will not stop. I will, however, have a more careful and suspicious attitude towards other hikers.

Last year I met another hiker on the LT, we met and hiked together for a while. When I think back, I realize that I hiked in front of him most of the day ( about ten yards), that could have been the end of me right there.

I'm taking this recent tragedy as a wake up call to be more aware of my position relative to others. Anyway, I hike to get away from you people so there is no reason to socialize or hike near anyone.

rafe
01-06-2008, 11:36
Anyway, I hike to get away from you people so there is no reason to socialize or hike near anyone.

That's one approach, I suppose.... :rolleyes:

I'm not that way. I almost always hike alone, but I prefer having company at camp. 24, 48 hours or more without speaking to another human... gets kinda weird, IMO.

MOWGLI
01-06-2008, 11:40
Solitude on the trail. Company in camp. I often backpack with 1-2 other hikers, but usually take up the sweep. It seems to happen regardless of who I hike with. That seems to be my equilibrium. I like to hike alone, but take breaks and enjoy camp with others.

Texasgirl
01-06-2008, 12:06
Probably the best thing you could do is leave your itenary with someone, including an ETA back home.

Thank you Ghosthiker and CoyoteWhips for your response.

Honestly, the itenary and ETA is not to protect me, I need my whits more than anything else for that, but if no one knows where I'm at, no one can know I'm even missing or maybe hurt somewhere and where would they even start looking? I was thinking of my family and friends. I'm good with that. I"m not going to stop hiking or living my life. I'll just be a little smarter.

Tin Man
01-06-2008, 12:06
There is a lot of talk about how we react to others on the trail. Perhaps we should also consider how our actions may be perceived by others, so as not to cause alarm or fear.

I usually hike with my brother. We stop and chat with other hikers. Usually the only ones who appear wary talking to us are solo female hikers and we are not all that scary looking. We always give others plenty of room and just offer friendly smiles and simple banter about the trail and the weather. I would not say we consciously try to put others at ease simply because we are just hiking with no worries, but maybe we should consider some simple steps to avoid unnecessarily raising anyone's concern?

We met a young lady a few years ago who was SOBO and went by the name Ghost, because she stealthed and was rarely seen. You could see she was on guard by her stance and mannerims. Smart lady, but sad nonetheless that she could not enjoy more socializing on the trail.

Another time, we ran into two young ladies finishing up the LT. We had a very friendly chat with them. After we separated, my brother and I talked about how they did not seem to be concerned in the least about talking to two old farts like us in the middle of nowhere. We weren't sure if that was a good thing or a bad thing.

PhoenixGSU
01-06-2008, 12:14
The stuff going on at Blood Mountain worries me, mostly because I was up there a couple weeks ago. I hate to say it but I doubt I'll be going back on the trail until I have a .22LR pistol and a german sheperd. Its enough to give anyone a second thought about doing anything.

Tilly
01-06-2008, 12:38
I just have to chime in.

A friend's husband is very into firearms, the 2nd amendment, self-defense, etc. He used to live in Arizona, and was telling me that he would go camping all the time, but always armed. He would lie 1/2 awake at night, and constantly think--what's that noise? What is that? And be esp. suspiciuous of everyone he saw, and would always have his firearm close at hand.

Well, now this guy lives in New Jersey (where I used to live) and was asking me about some hikes on the AT there. I told him that the most I've ever carried was a small camping knife for cutting rope, peeling apples, etc. He was very suprised. He told me that he would love to do some hiking in that area, but of course he wouldn't dream about not taking his gun along. I cringed, thinking of his reaction to possible night-hikers, homeless-looking thru-hikers, and animals scrounging around during the day and night.

Just a passing thought.

KirkMcquest
01-06-2008, 12:42
The stuff going on at Blood Mountain worries me, mostly because I was up there a couple weeks ago. I hate to say it but I doubt I'll be going back on the trail until I have a .22LR pistol and a german sheperd. Its enough to give anyone a second thought about doing anything.

I hear what your saying, but think about this; A few years ago a killer was stalking parking lots ( i think in virginia), he was shooting people from inside his car trunk. Funny I didn't hear anyone speaking reluctantly about going to home depot ( it sure didn't hurt their sales).

Why do you think that is? We know we're statistically in more danger out in the street than on the trail. We're more likely to get into a car accident and die on the way to the trail head. Logic tells us one thing, but our fear ( the most primitive emotion) tells us something else.

KirkMcquest
01-06-2008, 12:46
..... 24, 48 hours or more without speaking to another human... gets kinda weird, IMO.

Just 24/48 hrs gets weird!..You may be suffering from socialophilia:D

Tin Man
01-06-2008, 12:47
I hear what your saying, but think about this; A few years ago a killer was stalking parking lots ( i think in virginia), he was shooting people from inside his car trunk. Funny I didn't hear anyone speaking reluctantly about going to home depot ( it sure didn't hurt their sales).

Why do you think that is? We know we're statistically in more danger out in the street than on the trail. We're more likely to get into a car accident and die on the way to the trail head. Logic tells us one thing, but our fear ( the most primitive emotion) tells us something else.

I posted this in another thread...

I think people realize that every time you leave your home you can be a victim, accidentally or otherwise. Even your home is not 100% safe. Here are some statistics that might add some perspective...

http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

Don't be afraid to hike, just hike smart.
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jaiden
01-06-2008, 12:56
I think it's also important to realize that with the capture of this "person" the trail just got a lot safer. Just because something terrible happened doesn't mean that there is a sudden crime wave of nutjobs. If he were NOT caught, this would be of greater concern.

dessertrat
01-06-2008, 13:10
That is BS, people fight back every day and win, the press doesn't report it. If you've already decided to be a victim you've sealed your own fate. Our country wasn't founded or built by people with your defeatist mindset.

THere are few guarantees in life, you are right in the regard, except the guarantee that'll you'll have your arse handed to you if you are unprepared.

I know a guy who was jumped by a gang of four muggers in DC one night while he was walking home. He was fresh out of the Marine Corps, and a broken leg and a broken jaw later (for them, not him), he made an escape and the police got the two who were injured when they showed up at the hospital.

dessertrat
01-06-2008, 13:15
There is a lot of talk about how we react to others on the trail. Perhaps we should also consider how our actions may be perceived by others, so as not to cause alarm or fear.



If I encounter a woman alone in the woods while walking, I smile and say hello and speed on past. I do not want to be "that creepy guy", whether she is justified in thinking so or not. It's only if she wants to talk that I would say anything more or stop. At a shelter or something, you have to make conversation, to be polite, and I figure if she's not comfortable she'll move on.

KirkMcquest
01-06-2008, 13:33
If I encounter a woman alone in the woods while walking, I smile and say hello and speed on past. I do not want to be "that creepy guy", whether she is justified in thinking so or not. It's only if she wants to talk that I would say anything more or stop. At a shelter or something, you have to make conversation, to be polite, and I figure if she's not comfortable she'll move on.

I don't bother with any of that, I just act the same as I would with anyone, that is to say 'natural'(burping,cursing,drinking,etc). If she thinks I'm a creep or weirdo thats her mistake. And if she thinks she's going to mace me or something.....just try it, sister!!!!:banana

Tipi Walter
01-06-2008, 13:41
I just have to chime in.

A friend's husband is very into firearms, the 2nd amendment, self-defense, etc. He used to live in Arizona, and was telling me that he would go camping all the time, but always armed. He would lie 1/2 awake at night, and constantly think--what's that noise? What is that? And be esp. suspiciuous of everyone he saw, and would always have his firearm close at hand.

Well, now this guy lives in New Jersey (where I used to live) and was asking me about some hikes on the AT there. I told him that the most I've ever carried was a small camping knife for cutting rope, peeling apples, etc. He was very suprised. He told me that he would love to do some hiking in that area, but of course he wouldn't dream about not taking his gun along. I cringed, thinking of his reaction to possible night-hikers, homeless-looking thru-hikers, and animals scrounging around during the day and night.

Just a passing thought.

Just my luck to stumble into his "camp" on a nighthike. Maybe Outward Bound or NOLS should offer classes on E & E, harbor sites and the building of pungi pits and night perimeter defenses. If we could just get them, we could set out claymores every night just in case, can't be too safe. And since personal security is the most important thing in the world for some people, maybe they should work to have security lights with motion detectors installed on the trail, surveillance cameras and personal GPS locator chips and a satellite phone to use when and if an old questionable backpacking hippie approaches and things get hairy. Dangit, he just looks suspicious! Call in your coordinates, go to ground, sight-acquire-fire. Shoot first, ask later.

dessertrat
01-06-2008, 13:43
and a satellite phone to use when and if an old questionable backpacking hippie approaches and things get hairy.

Don't things always get hairy when old hippies are around?

Tipi Walter
01-06-2008, 13:49
Don't things always get hairy when old hippies are around?

My point exactly.

CoyoteWhips
01-06-2008, 13:57
If I encounter a woman alone in the woods while walking, I smile and say hello and speed on past. I do not want to be "that creepy guy", whether she is justified in thinking so or not.

Frankly, I've gotten to the point I don't even want to make eye contact when passing women on the trail. If she says hello, I'll respond, but most of the time I'm pretending to admire the scenic view on the other side of the trail.

JF2CBR
01-06-2008, 13:59
I 100% agree with the notion that you need to take the measures YOU need to make YOU feel safe.

If you feel confident in self defense, then great. If you feel a knife is required, fine. If you feel you need a firearm, then if you're willing to carry the extra weight, go for it!

I personally have a concealed carry permit for my S&W .40 handgun and it stays in my car mostly. I would carry it backpacking if it wasn't for the weight issue. I do carry a knife and I do keep it handy.

For all those who are jumping on the "guns dont belong on the trail" bandwagon, who are you to say what is required for a certain person to feel safe? If you feel safe with your bare hands or cunning wit, then more power to you. If you feel safe with bear mace, great, carry it. Only YOU can determine what makes you feel safe.

TO EACH HIS/HER OWN!!

FatMan
01-06-2008, 13:59
The stuff going on at Blood Mountain worries me, mostly because I was up there a couple weeks ago. I hate to say it but I doubt I'll be going back on the trail until I have a .22LR pistol and a german sheperd. Its enough to give anyone a second thought about doing anything.Typical knee-jerk reaction to a senseless crime on our turf. For the safety sake of all hikers, please leave the guns at home. Accidents can be just as deadly as senseless crimes.

KirkMcquest
01-06-2008, 14:07
..... please leave the guns at home. Accidents can be just as deadly as senseless crimes.

How about this; you don't worry about what others carry in their backpacks/jackets/holsters, and others won't concern themselves with what you carry in yours.

Fair enough?

FatMan
01-06-2008, 14:11
How about this; you don't worry about what others carry in their backpacks/jackets/holsters, and others won't concern themselves with what you carry in yours.

Fair enough?Nope, carrying guns on the AT is BS. No need and very dangerous.

Lone Wolf
01-06-2008, 14:13
Nope, carrying guns on the AT is BS. No need and very dangerous.

that's just your opinion. it works for you. your choice to be a victim :)

dixicritter
01-06-2008, 14:15
Nope, carrying guns on the AT is BS. No need and very dangerous.

And against Federal Law in some areas... just sayin. :sun

Lone Wolf
01-06-2008, 14:17
carrying illegal substances are illegal EVERYWHERE but tons of hikers carry them and freely use them openly. a few guns ain't hurtin' squat. just sayin'

JF2CBR
01-06-2008, 14:17
A firearm in the hands of a person who has common sense and is trained and/or has lots of practice is not dangerous for anyone but the would be assailant.

Simple as that.

ShakeyLeggs
01-06-2008, 14:19
I have to chime in here about carrying a gun. First off bad idea. One thing to keep in mind allot of jurisdictions will not recognize another jurisdictions carry permit and carrying a gun in a few places is down right against the law. Another is to be of use it must be easily accessible which with the types of clothing we wear and all the straps and things covering our bodies while hiking makes this a bit difficult. Next you have to overcome the fact that you are about to attempt to take someones life. I know most people will say they will shoot but be truthful here you don't know what you will do until confronted with the situation. The first thing you will most likely do is pull out the gun and point it at them then pause before pulling the trigger. Now hopefully that is all you will have to do but if the person is intent on doing you harm that pause may be all they need to take the gun from you. Now you have someone intent on doing you harm and they now have your gun to use on you. So you need to pull the trigger without hesitation. And truth be told the human body is a small target to hit with a handgun, forget about an arm, leg or headshot. That mostly happens in the movies. Shoot for center mass (center of the chest). Either way you look at it if you are in a situation where you had to pull a gun your hike is most likely over. One if you shot now you have to deal with the legal and emotional aspects, second if you did not fire you probably now have to deal with a legal problem of carrying a weapon where either it is illegal to carry a gun or your carry permit is not recognized. So like I said carrying a gun is a bad idea plus most are heavy.

The best thing you can do is let those at home know where you are going and when you will be back. While out there listen to your gut. If something doesn't feel right move on. Get to an area where people are I.E shelter, town. If confronted with an person who is giving you trouble try talking if that doesn't work grab a big stick, rock or whatever is at hand.

Just my 2 cents YMMV

Lone Wolf
01-06-2008, 14:20
I have to chime in here about carrying a gun. First off bad idea. One thing to keep in mind allot of jurisdictions will not recognize another jurisdictions carry permit and carrying a gun in a few places is down right against the law. Another is to be of use it must be easily accessible which with the types of clothing we wear and all the straps and things covering our bodies while hiking makes this a bit difficult. Next you have to overcome the fact that you are about to attempt to take someones life. I know most people will say they will shoot but be truthful here you don't know what you will do until confronted with the situation. The first thing you will most likely do is pull out the gun and point it at them then pause before pulling the trigger. Now hopefully that is all you will have to do but if the person is intent on doing you harm that pause may be all they need to take the gun from you. Now you have someone intent on doing you harm and they now have your gun to use on you. So you need to pull the trigger without hesitation. And truth be told the human body is a small target to hit with a handgun, forget about an arm, leg or headshot. That mostly happens in the movies. Shoot for center mass (center of the chest). Either way you look at it if you are in a situation where you had to pull a gun your hike is most likely over. One if you shot now you have to deal with the legal and emotional aspects, second if you did not fire you probably now have to deal with a legal problem of carrying a weapon where either it is illegal to carry a gun or your carry permit is not recognized. So like I said carrying a gun is a bad idea plus most are heavy.

The best thing you can do is let those at home know where you are going and when you will be back. While out there listen to your gut. If something doesn't feel right move on. Get to an area where people are I.E shelter, town. If confronted with an person who is giving you trouble try talking if that doesn't work grab a big stick, rock or whatever is at hand.

Just my 2 cents YMMV
my mileage varies :rolleyes: same 'ol rhetoric

Terry7
01-06-2008, 14:23
I left the Fort lauderdale-Miami area to get away from all the crime. I drove a taxi for 25 years and have seen to many things. I spent the best 5 months of my life on the AT. Once I stoped worrying about the bears, I became the most relaxed and peacefull I have ever been. If you watch the news and take nothing in but bad stuff all the time you will never feel at peace. Like many have said here, your best weapon is your brain.

take-a-knee
01-06-2008, 14:25
Typical knee-jerk reaction to a senseless crime on our turf. For the safety sake of all hikers, please leave the guns at home. Accidents can be just as deadly as senseless crimes.

Modern firearms don't go off unless you pull the f*****g trigger. The drawstroke taught with the technique of the modern pistol only places your finger on the trigger as the gun is pushed forward from the retention position. There is no need to fire an unaligned pistol, therefore there is no need to place your finger on the trigger until A) you have a target B) you are aquirring your front sight and lining it up on said target. This is called training, building the conditioned response. That is handgun 101 dude, why don't you give advice on something you understand.

rafe
01-06-2008, 14:27
carrying illegal substances are illegal EVERYWHERE but tons of hikers carry them and freely use them openly. a few guns ain't hurtin' squat. just sayin'

LW, what do you know about a shooting of a hiker in Harriman Park... late eighties, early nineties? I've heard some gnarly scuttlebut about it. The shooting wasn't fatal, BTW. (May take this to PM.)

take-a-knee
01-06-2008, 14:30
Just my luck to stumble into his "camp" on a nighthike. Maybe Outward Bound or NOLS should offer classes on E & E, harbor sites and the building of pungi pits and night perimeter defenses. If we could just get them, we could set out claymores every night just in case, can't be too safe. And since personal security is the most important thing in the world for some people, maybe they should work to have security lights with motion detectors installed on the trail, surveillance cameras and personal GPS locator chips and a satellite phone to use when and if an old questionable backpacking hippie approaches and things get hairy. Dangit, he just looks suspicious! Call in your coordinates, go to ground, sight-acquire-fire. Shoot first, ask later.

I didn't know you were a Rush Limbaugh fan Walter, that is a good demonstation of his technique of "demonstrating absurdity by being absurd", the only problem you did more to bolster my arguement than you did your own.

Lone Wolf
01-06-2008, 14:30
LW, what do you know about a shooting of a hiker in Harriman Park... late eighties, early nineties? I've heard some gnarly scuttlebut about it. The shooting wasn't fatal, BTW. (May take this to PM.)

i heard it was self-inflicted and the guy tried to blame it on an "intruder"

gaga
01-06-2008, 14:46
I definitely believe in gut feelings AKA your intuition. just trust your gut and use your brain combined whit it, 9 out of 10 times his right(your gut) for you.
Is There a Sixth Sense?? of course there is, use it and perfect it in every day life.The sixth sense is a part of everyone whether or not they like it. It is a normal part of the human psyche. use your gut to save your skin :D and your wallet.

NorthCountryWoods
01-06-2008, 14:46
Could anyone of the anti-gun folk please post verifiable cases of an accidental shootings by gun carriers on the trail?

How about a case of a bad guy taking a gun away from someone and using it against them?

Anyone?

MOWGLI
01-06-2008, 14:47
... the only problem you did more to bolster my arguement than you did your own.

In your own mind - perhaps.

Bob S
01-06-2008, 14:50
Carrying a gun won't keep anyone from being lured into a van and then bludgeoned to death by a convincing lunatic before he or she has the chance to react.


Tell that to the family of this 24-year old hikers family. Yes it’s illegal to carry a gun, but it’s also a fact that a gun in the hands of someone being attacked can defuse the attack or in an extreme case stop it because you shot the person.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
You can use the gun and not kill the person. Many times just having the criminal see it will stop them, or you could discharge it into the ground at his feet. And then if he doesn’t stop and is still bent on rape or murder, shoot him. Yes you will have to answer to the police for shooting him, but isn’t that better then him killing you? Those of you that say a gun can’t be carried hidden and accessed fast are not very well informed about holsters. How do you think undercover cops and federal agents do it? There is an almost endless number of ways, holsters, belt packs, ankle holsters and the like that allow you to carry a gun hidden and ready for a moments use. Heck a small gun in a pocket works well, see another person on the trail, put your hand in your pocket. How simple can it be.
Several years ago I worked at a gun shop, I just carried a small Beretta 22 in my pocket ( still do at times.) Never had to use it, but it was always there if needed.
<o:p> </o:p>
True story<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I have a friend that was at a beach taking a walk; a young woman was being harassed by several biker guys. My friend said to leave the girl alone. They told him to Fu*k off, he pulled out his 9-mm. They said “what you going to do, shoot us” He shot the mirror on one of the motorcycles. The bikers got the message and rode on. He made sure the 2 young woman got to their car before he went resumed his walk. No one died, and the gun in the hands of a skilled, responsible person saved the day. It’s likely that this woman would have been raped. You people that hate guns can say all day that you are better off without them, but when it comes down to stopping bad people, a gun rains supreme at doing so. As far as hard to use, a car is harder to use then a gun. All it takes is practice.
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

Captn
01-06-2008, 14:57
Wow. All I can say is that while you're busy assuming that every car parked at the trailhead belongs to a potential criminal and is worthy of photographing, I'll be out hiking, enjoying the scenery. And I'll let you in on something: the person arousing the most suspicion at a trailhead is going to be the fellow lurking in the parking lot taking pictures of all the cars. :rolleyes:

I'm not assuming anything ..... but I grew up in Gary Indiana ..... and went to a rough high school, learned to fight before 6th grade .... had to to survive.

You can talk personal security all day long, talk about the gun issue, should hikers carry mace, knives, etc ....

I've been stalked on the streets, followed by undesireables in the streets of Buenos Aries, and accosted more than once.

I'm telling you ... the best security comes from understanding the mind of the hunter. What do all crimes have in common? It's a belief that the perpetrator will get away with it .... if you change that belief ... make it more probable that the bad guy will get caught, then you've maximized the security of everyone.

This coward was caught only because someone wrote down his license plate number .. a random act that will result in bringing a bad guy to justice. If he had thought that there was a high likelihood that someone would have written down his plate number, well, my guess is that Merrideth would not be lost and could take part in this discussion.

I hike solo a lot, I've hiked parts of the AT solo, trails in the midwest, trails in Texas, New Mexico .... camped alone, etc. I enjoy being alone with nature. I don't have a problem at all with someone taking note of my plate number ... in fact, at least one of the places that I hike regularly requires you to register with your plate number when you check in.

You'd have to have a better argument for me as to why you would object to someone taking note of your plate number than "someone lurking at the trailhead would be suspect". Suspect me all you want ... but be on notice from now on that if you're hiking when and where I happen to be ... I'll have your plate number. That's a promise.

Bad guys take note.

Waterbuffalo
01-06-2008, 15:07
Just my .02
I have a conceal carry permit and Carry a Glock .40cal Weight is not an issue when it comes to my or my families safety and very few jurisdictions are going to do anything to you if you remember one phrase "I was in fear for my life"

JF2CBR
01-06-2008, 15:11
Everyone knows that when someone attacks you all you have to do is ask them nicely to stop!!

You guys/gals can try to talk/smile/tickle off your attacker all you want. I'd like to know how that works out for ya!

As for telling family or friends where you'll hiking, taking pictures of cars at the trailhead, ect. ect. Sounds like a good idea, at least they'll find your body quicker. These things (while good ideas for other reasons) will do NOTHING for you in a hostile confrontation on the trail.

Think about this: If would be attackers knew that people were armed while hiking (either mase, knives, firearms) do you think they would give it a little more hesitation before trying to attack someone? I think so.

If I was going to attack someone for any reason...It probably would NOT be the person with the Kbar on their side or glock in the holster. Think about it...

CoyoteWhips
01-06-2008, 15:13
Even though this most recent tragic case has brought guns back into the discussion, I don't think it would have made a difference in this one case.

I have no doubt that a 24-year-old woman in top physical condition could have outrun this 60-year-old man, if she'd recognized the danger in time -- more easily than she could have pulled a gun and shot at him. That she didn't suggests that he caught her at a disadvantage. That's what predators do.

Darwin again
01-06-2008, 15:18
I think it's dumb to carry a firearm on the Appalachian Trail.

That said, do you think a perperpetrator would harass a potential victim if she/he were visibly packing a big can of pepper spray or a pistol?

A concealed weapon would have done nothing to deter such a perp. But a potential victim carrying visible defense items, like sticks, poles, pepper spray or a pistol would almost certainly be quickly dismissed as an easy target by an attacker. Not getting into a vehicle with a total stanger helps prevent becoming a victim, too.

No judgement call here -- just making a point.

Toolshed
01-06-2008, 15:25
Typical knee-jerk reaction to a senseless crime on our turf. For the safety sake of all hikers, please leave the guns at home. Accidents can be just as deadly as senseless crimes.
Baaaaaaa......Baaaaaaaaaaaa..........

trlhiker
01-06-2008, 15:37
Even though this most recent tragic case has brought guns back into the discussion, I don't think it would have made a difference in this one case.

I have no doubt that a 24-year-old woman in top physical condition could have outrun this 60-year-old man, if she'd recognized the danger in time -- more easily than she could have pulled a gun and shot at him. That she didn't suggests that he caught her at a disadvantage. That's what predators do.

My feeling exactly. She had apperantly been talking to him for some time up and down the trail, according to reports. He waited until they got back to the parking area and in the moment that she had her back to him, he struck, this by evidence in the parking area. No gun or any other weapon would have helped her. So by all means bring your gun, just don't ever turn your back to a stranger. Cause at that point your gun is useless.

JF2CBR
01-06-2008, 15:40
Ever hear the phrase:

"Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"??

4eyedbuzzard
01-06-2008, 15:40
I often carry a small .380 automatic concealed. It's usually in my right hand jacket pocket, and if not, in my right front pants pocket when I'm not wearing a jacket. It's in my sleeping bag at night if I'm carrying it while hiking(and just FWIW, I don't ALWAYS carry). I don't carry it in a place it would be useless, such as in my pack, etc. And I can honestly access it in seconds without fumbling.

Here's the reality though. If you aren't somehow alerted to danger prior to being attacked, it will be difficult to respond regardless if you're armed or not. If a guy hides behind a rock and takes you out as you pass, you're in deep doo-doo. If you're sound asleep, reacting successfully to an attacker who is in control of the situation is incredibly unlikely. If someone really wants to kill you that badly, and they have any degree of intelligence, you are most likely gonna die. They are gonna get the drop on you whether you're armed or not.

So why carry? Because most criminals DO tend to tip their hand. Most commonly they'll appear out of place/suspicious, doing things that don't fit the context of the situation. Often you don't pick up exactly what it is at the time, but it's usually a combination of appearance, body language, eye contact, hands, etc. But it still puts you on alert. Less commonly they'll be too friendly, say something threatening, act aggressive or even display a weapon in plain view before attacking. Carrying a lethal weapon DOES greatly increase your odds of survivng a violent attack even with limited warning. Attacks against armed persons are much less successful than those against unarmed ones. And obviously, the more weapons and combat shooting training you have, the better.

But weapons aren't the end all of self-defense, situational awareness(aka self-defense awareness) and control are. You are always better off avoiding an attack by any means than you are engaging an attacker in a fight. If gaining/staying in control means avoidance, you do so. Running away remains the most successful human survival strategy of all time. But here's the rub in my situation: I can't run fast or far anymore, nor do I think I would fare very well in hand-to-hand combat, due to several physical injuries in the past. If I'm threatened or attacked, I'm pretty much in for the fight due to these mobility issues. And I want every advantage I can possibly have should such a situation arise. And I will not hesitate to put two into the center of mass of anyone who trys to make me their next victim.

Most criminals attacks center on either money or sex. And one of the best defenses is not to look like an easy victim or draw attention to yourself. Most of the normal warnings apply here. Don't hike alone if you don't have to, if you do, try to stealth through road areas. Stay clear of shelters where locals party or homeless people frequent. Don't display large amounts of money in towns. Don't party hard with total strangers. Keep an eye on your drinks(date rape drugging). Be really careful hitch-hiking. Rides in open bed pick-ups are best, vans(especially with no windows) are the absolute worst. Never, ever, get into any vehicle without seeing who else in inside first. Look to see that the door handles are still attached. If it starts feeling wierd, get the hell away ASAP. Women should be especially wary of "all the usual suspects."

Given the recent incident, what can be said about psycho killers other than the fact that they are out there. Their appearance and demeanor can never be predicted. But like other criminals, they remain opportunists, and being aware of that is our best defense against becoming a victim. Everbody who saw/met this recent killer, said he triggered their "sixth-sense" alert. Sometimes people say don't judge others on your first impression. BS! We spend most of our lives learning to do so and 90%+ of the time we are right. Trust your instincts, and don't second guess them until you are clear of the situation. Don't get conned into letting your guard down by a few minutes of pleasant converstation. There was a reason you were suspicious - remember?

As to several sympathetic posts here on WB regarding homeless persons: These are not stray cats that need a warm bowl of milk. At minimum they need a job, and most need psychiatic care, neither of which you can give them. If you feel they need ministering and compassion, report them to authorities so they may be led to the nearest church by guys with badges. Don't put yourself at increased risk trying to be a good Samaritan to these people, save your altruism for injured hikers. There's a reason most of these people are homeless given the amount of public assistance in place - they behave unpredictably and irrationally.

The choice to carry a firearm, within legal limits, is purely a personal one. If you weigh the positive vs negative aspects of carrying, and choose to take on the responsibility that comes with choosing to carry, it may very well make a difference in your survival if attacked. But neither side here can choose what is the appropriate decision for others. Those whose philosophical and political viewpoints persuade them not to carry, should be equally respectful of those who choose to carry weapons to aid in their ability to defend themselves.

Bulldawg
01-06-2008, 15:41
I think it's dumb to carry a firearm on the Appalachian Trail.

That said, do you think a perperpetrator would harass a potential victim if she/he were visibly packing a big can of pepper spray or a pistol?

A concealed weapon would have done nothing to deter such a perp. But a potential victim carrying visible defense items, like sticks, poles, pepper spray or a pistol would almost certainly be quickly dismissed as an easy target by an attacker. Not getting into a vehicle with a total stanger helps prevent becoming a victim, too.

No judgement call here -- just making a point.

That being said, what would be your perception if you rolled into a shelter one afternoon and saw me there with my pistol visible dangling from my left shoulder under my arm? Would you be offended or would you be scared and move on? Or would you ask me why I was carrying? Or would you rather not know I had my pistol, that I had it under my pants on my ankle or something? Just wondering.

rafe
01-06-2008, 15:43
Trlhiker, do predators never approach from behind? Do you have eyes in the back of your head? A predator with a gun can strike while being completely unobserved.

earlyriser26
01-06-2008, 15:49
Unfortunately, there is very little that can be done if you are hiking alone. A crimal by definition is prepared. you are not. Unless you have a gun drawn you can be taken and who wants to hike like that? If you are a female some saftey can be found in groups, but weapons are unlikely to help you. I am glad to me a male and not face the extra burden women have. It is so unfair not to be able to hike alone without worrying about the next sociopath on the trail.

dessertrat
01-06-2008, 15:56
Unfortunately, there is very little that can be done if you are hiking alone. A crimal by definition is prepared. you are not. Unless you have a gun drawn you can be taken and who wants to hike like that? If you are a female some saftey can be found in groups, but weapons are unlikely to help you. I am glad to me a male and not face the extra burden women have. It is so unfair not to be able to hike alone without worrying about the next sociopath on the trail.

The good thing is that they are almost never very far down the trail. They are usually too lazy to hike very far from a road, and part of getting away means being able to get to a vehicle, or away from the crime scene, fairly quickly. I would encourage people to be especially careful near roads, but I think once you are more than a couple of hours hike from a road, the odds of a criminal lurking there diminish sharply.

earlyriser26
01-06-2008, 16:00
Also, trust your gut instinct. If someone does not feel right get away fast and tell others.

Darwin again
01-06-2008, 16:05
That being said, what would be your perception if you rolled into a shelter one afternoon and saw me there with my pistol visible dangling from my left shoulder under my arm? Would you be offended or would you be scared and move on? Or would you ask me why I was carrying? Or would you rather not know I had my pistol, that I had it under my pants on my ankle or something? Just wondering.

Forgive me for thinking that the tone of your post is defensive and argumentative. I'm sure you didn't intend it to be so, so I'm not offended.

That said, I don't care who packs. I trust people with weapons in that kind of situation -- most of the time, if you're not in an urban environment and the carrier isn't in baggy pants, packing heat is an indicator that there is some kind of higher brain function at work. I live in a state that allows it, I grew up around weapons and I'm proficient in their use and care.

What would I say? I'd probably say, "Hello" to you just as I would any other hiker. I don't feel the need to carry a firearm, mostly because I have an array of options for self-defense at my instant disposal. (The first of those weapons is my brain. The others? Well, lets just say you don't have a need to know.;))

However, if you brandish a weapon in that same shelter, you might run into a problem of some undetermined kind. Since you asked.

take-a-knee
01-06-2008, 16:07
I often carry a small .380 automatic concealed. It's usually in my right hand jacket pocket, and if not, in my right front pants pocket when I'm not wearing a jacket. It's in my sleeping bag at night if I'm carrying it while hiking(and just FWIW, I don't ALWAYS carry). I don't carry it in a place it would be useless, such as in my pack, etc. And I can honestly access it in seconds without fumbling.

Here's the reality though. If you aren't somehow alerted to danger prior to being attacked, it will be difficult to respond regardless if you're armed or not. If a guy hides behind a rock and takes you out as you pass, you're in deep doo-doo. If you're sound asleep, reacting successfully to an attacker who is in control of the situation is incredibly unlikely. If someone really wants to kill you that badly, and they have any degree of intelligence, you are most likely gonna die. They are gonna get the drop on you whether you're armed or not.

So why carry? Because most criminals DO tend to tip their hand. Most commonly they'll appear out of place/suspicious, doing things that don't fit the context of the situation. Often you don't pick up exactly what it is at the time, but it's usually a combination of appearance, body language, eye contact, hands, etc. But it still puts you on alert. Less commonly they'll be too friendly, say something threatening, act aggressive or even display a weapon in plain view before attacking. Carrying a lethal weapon DOES greatly increase your odds of survivng a violent attack even with limited warning. Attacks against armed persons are much less successful than those against unarmed ones. And obviously, the more weapons and combat shooting training you have, the better.

But weapons aren't the end all of self-defense, situational awareness(aka self-defense awareness) and control are. You are always better off avoiding an attack by any means than you are engaging an attacker in a fight. If gaining/staying in control means avoidance, you do so. Running away remains the most successful human survival strategy of all time. But here's the rub in my situation: I can't run fast or far anymore, nor do I think I would fare very well in hand-to-hand combat, due to several physical injuries in the past. If I'm threatened or attacked, I'm pretty much in for the fight due to these mobility issues. And I want every advantage I can possibly have should such a situation arise. And I will not hesitate to put two into the center of mass of anyone who trys to make me their next victim.

Most criminals attacks center on either money or sex. And one of the best defenses is not to look like an easy victim or draw attention to yourself. Most of the normal warnings apply here. Don't hike alone if you don't have to, if you do, try to stealth through road areas. Stay clear of shelters where locals party or homeless people frequent. Don't display large amounts of money in towns. Don't party hard with total strangers. Keep an eye on your drinks(date rape drugging). Be really careful hitch-hiking. Rides in open bed pick-ups are best, vans(especially with no windows) are the absolute worst. Never, ever, get into any vehicle without seeing who else in inside first. Look to see that the door handles are still attached. If it starts feeling wierd, get the hell away ASAP. Women should be especially wary of "all the usual suspects."

Given the recent incident, what can be said about psycho killers other than the fact that they are out there. Their appearance and demeanor can never be predicted. But like other criminals, they remain opportunists, and being aware of that is our best defense against becoming a victim. Everbody who saw/met this recent killer, said he triggered their "sixth-sense" alert. Sometimes people say don't judge others on your first impression. BS! We spend most of our lives learning to do so and 90%+ of the time we are right. Trust your instincts, and don't second guess them until you are clear of the situation. Don't get conned into letting your guard down by a few minutes of pleasant converstation. There was a reason you were suspicious - remember?

As to several sympathetic posts here on WB regarding homeless persons: These are not stray cats that need a warm bowl of milk. At minimum they need a job, and most need psychiatic care, neither of which you can give them. If you feel they need ministering and compassion, report them to authorities so they may be led to the nearest church by guys with badges. Don't put yourself at increased risk trying to be a good Samaritan to these people, save your altruism for injured hikers. There's a reason most of these people are homeless given the amount of public assistance in place - they behave unpredictably and irrationally.

The choice to carry a firearm, within legal limits, is purely a personal one. If you weigh the positive vs negative aspects of carrying, and choose to take on the responsibility that comes with choosing to carry, it may very well make a difference in your survival if attacked. But neither side here can choose what is the appropriate decision for others. Those whose philosophical and political viewpoints persuade them not to carry, should be equally respectful of those who choose to carry weapons to aid in their ability to defend themselves.

AWESOME POST BUZZARD!

PhoenixGSU
01-06-2008, 16:16
Typical knee-jerk reaction to a senseless crime on our turf. For the safety sake of all hikers, please leave the guns at home. Accidents can be just as deadly as senseless crimes.

I'm an NRA certified instructor for rifle and shotgun. I'm NOT the typical Git-r-dun yahoo. A gun is no more dangerous than a rock if its in the hands of the right person.

My last time on the trail I passed a guy carrying a .22 rifle in his pack. :D

earlyriser26
01-06-2008, 16:18
Well said. My favorite phrase, situational awarness.

ShakeyLeggs
01-06-2008, 16:47
How about a case of a bad guy taking a gun away from someone and using it against them?

Anyone?


Here ya go:

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/criminal's%20gun%20taken%20away%20and%20used%20aga inst%20him.html

http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2007/10/23/updates/breaking_news/doc471de12320185962142003.txt

And here is a goodie;

http://www.spybase.us/taylor.htm

Don't get me wrong I am for guns, I own guns. But I feel that a gun on the trail is more trouble than it is worth. A firearm in the right hands is a great tool for thwarting crime.

Toolshed
01-06-2008, 16:53
I often carry a small .380 automatic concealed. It's usually in my right hand jacket pocket, and if not, in my right front pants pocket when I'm not wearing a jacket. It's in my sleeping bag at night if I'm carrying it while hiking(and just FWIW, I don't ALWAYS carry). I don't carry it in a place it would be useless, such as in my pack, etc. And I can honestly access it in seconds without fumbling.

Here's the reality though. If you aren't somehow alerted to danger prior to being attacked, it will be difficult to respond regardless if you're armed or not. If a guy hides behind a rock and takes you out as you pass, you're in deep doo-doo. If you're sound asleep, reacting successfully to an attacker who is in control of the situation is incredibly unlikely. If someone really wants to kill you that badly, and they have any degree of intelligence, you are most likely gonna die. They are gonna get the drop on you whether you're armed or not.

So why carry? Because most criminals DO tend to tip their hand. Most commonly they'll appear out of place/suspicious, doing things that don't fit the context of the situation. Often you don't pick up exactly what it is at the time, but it's usually a combination of appearance, body language, eye contact, hands, etc. But it still puts you on alert. Less commonly they'll be too friendly, say something threatening, act aggressive or even display a weapon in plain view before attacking. Carrying a lethal weapon DOES greatly increase your odds of survivng a violent attack even with limited warning. Attacks against armed persons are much less successful than those against unarmed ones. And obviously, the more weapons and combat shooting training you have, the better.

But weapons aren't the end all of self-defense, situational awareness(aka self-defense awareness) and control are. You are always better off avoiding an attack by any means than you are engaging an attacker in a fight. If gaining/staying in control means avoidance, you do so. Running away remains the most successful human survival strategy of all time. But here's the rub in my situation: I can't run fast or far anymore, nor do I think I would fare very well in hand-to-hand combat, due to several physical injuries in the past. If I'm threatened or attacked, I'm pretty much in for the fight due to these mobility issues. And I want every advantage I can possibly have should such a situation arise. And I will not hesitate to put two into the center of mass of anyone who trys to make me their next victim.

Most criminals attacks center on either money or sex. And one of the best defenses is not to look like an easy victim or draw attention to yourself. Most of the normal warnings apply here. Don't hike alone if you don't have to, if you do, try to stealth through road areas. Stay clear of shelters where locals party or homeless people frequent. Don't display large amounts of money in towns. Don't party hard with total strangers. Keep an eye on your drinks(date rape drugging). Be really careful hitch-hiking. Rides in open bed pick-ups are best, vans(especially with no windows) are the absolute worst. Never, ever, get into any vehicle without seeing who else in inside first. Look to see that the door handles are still attached. If it starts feeling wierd, get the hell away ASAP. Women should be especially wary of "all the usual suspects."

Given the recent incident, what can be said about psycho killers other than the fact that they are out there. Their appearance and demeanor can never be predicted. But like other criminals, they remain opportunists, and being aware of that is our best defense against becoming a victim. Everbody who saw/met this recent killer, said he triggered their "sixth-sense" alert. Sometimes people say don't judge others on your first impression. BS! We spend most of our lives learning to do so and 90%+ of the time we are right. Trust your instincts, and don't second guess them until you are clear of the situation. Don't get conned into letting your guard down by a few minutes of pleasant converstation. There was a reason you were suspicious - remember?

As to several sympathetic posts here on WB regarding homeless persons: These are not stray cats that need a warm bowl of milk. At minimum they need a job, and most need psychiatic care, neither of which you can give them. If you feel they need ministering and compassion, report them to authorities so they may be led to the nearest church by guys with badges. Don't put yourself at increased risk trying to be a good Samaritan to these people, save your altruism for injured hikers. There's a reason most of these people are homeless given the amount of public assistance in place - they behave unpredictably and irrationally.

The choice to carry a firearm, within legal limits, is purely a personal one. If you weigh the positive vs negative aspects of carrying, and choose to take on the responsibility that comes with choosing to carry, it may very well make a difference in your survival if attacked. But neither side here can choose what is the appropriate decision for others. Those whose philosophical and political viewpoints persuade them not to carry, should be equally respectful of those who choose to carry weapons to aid in their ability to defend themselves.

Nicely put 4EB!!!!

Toolshed
01-06-2008, 16:58
That being said, what would be your perception if you rolled into a shelter one afternoon and saw me there with my pistol visible dangling from my left shoulder under my arm? Would you be offended or would you be scared and move on? Or would you ask me why I was carrying? Or would you rather not know I had my pistol, that I had it under my pants on my ankle or something? Just wondering.
Wouldn't bother me in the least. We'd probably start talking about different firearms we have had in the past - various FFL dealers we know, what branches in the, military we served in, yada, yada, yada. I would only ask that if my young son was with me, please keep it within your possession while we are there (as I would do the same for you or anybody else - Then again, all responsible gun owners do this.) Odds are, it probably wouldn;t happen as I try not to frequent LT's except for winter.:D :)

NorthCountryWoods
01-06-2008, 17:20
Here ya go:

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/criminal's%20gun%20taken%20away%20and%20used%20aga inst%20him.html

http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2007/10/23/updates/breaking_news/doc471de12320185962142003.txt

And here is a goodie;

http://www.spybase.us/taylor.htm

Don't get me wrong I am for guns, I own guns. But I feel that a gun on the trail is more trouble than it is worth. A firearm in the right hands is a great tool for thwarting crime.

I meant on the trail or in the woods, but since you brought it up....

.....your first link is dead, the second is a rent a cop :rolleyes: and the third is a guy selling a dvd about taking guns away. And in that last link a stat it used was "95% of civilians are shot with their own gun", that is a bit of spin. They left out that they are usually shoot themselves or are shot by a spouse...with their own gun.

rickb
01-06-2008, 17:21
he choice to carry a firearm, within legal limits, is purely a personal one.

Does anyone else find it ironic that the people who are most interested in packing are those who need protection least? But back to the central question.

My thoughts on this topic would include getting comfortable/used to camping out of sight of the Trail early on, so that you don't feel a "need" to stay at a shelter. If your gut tells you to move on, then move on. This will be easier to do if you have camped well off trail under less stressful circumstances. Most AT violence has been perpetrated at shelters. (This is probably more importantant to SOBOs and other who are not walking with the herd).

Having a tent or hammock that doesn't shout "here I am in bright yellow" isn't a bad a bad either.

Don't post your picture on a web page unless you are old, fat and bald. Also probably not a good idea to use "Cheater's Dancer" as a trail name if you don't fit that profile.

If a woman does have concern walking in a particular area, travel with two others. Records show that camping at a shelter with a single companion (male of female) is no guarantee of safety.

When hitchhiking, don't ever get in a car if your gut even whispers not to.

Don't walk with fear, but don't be naive either. Trust you gut.

NorthCountryWoods
01-06-2008, 17:31
Does anyone else find it ironic that the people who are most interested in packing are those who need protection least? But back to the central question.

Does anyone find it ironic that those afraid of law abiding citizens packing heat, ridicule them for being afraid of criminals?

turtle fast
01-06-2008, 17:48
Would it work to act crazier than the crazy person that you ran into? Serious question.....I have done it once when I was approached by a whacked out crack addict with I believe an intent to get money from me....I talked loudlly jibberish, smelled my armpits and was flailing my arms yelling jibberish into the sky googley eyed when I was in college....it worked the guy just turned around!

Darwin again
01-06-2008, 18:02
Would it work to act crazier than the crazy person that you ran into? Serious question.....I have done it once when I was approached by a whacked out crack addict with I believe an intent to get money from me....I talked loudlly jibberish, smelled my armpits and was flailing my arms yelling jibberish into the sky googley eyed when I was in college....it worked the guy just turned around!

Let's see if this post makes it onto the board...:rolleyes:

Yes! That absolutely works!
I did it once in an urban situation, in the Washington, D.C., Metro.
Some sketchy dude sauntered up and started to give me the, "Hey man..." routine and I just froze and stared at him. I became totally alert to his movements and facial expressions, but just leveled my gaze right between his eyes and set my lips straight and hard, then squinted a little, like Clint Eastwood. The dude backed off and looked at me again and said, "Dood, youse crazy..." and beat a quick retreat. If I'd engaged him on his level, it never would have worked out.

To this day, I still don't really know why I reated that way. Sixth sense, maybe? If he'd made a move for a pocket or other wise, I'd have toasted him right there. Turns out he thought better of making me his business. Troublesome people may be a little nuts, but even they have a self-preservation instinct most of the time.

~DARWIN

FatMan
01-06-2008, 18:18
Does anyone find it ironic that those afraid of law abiding citizens packing heat, ridicule them for being afraid of criminals?That is not the issue here. The issue is about guns on the AT. What I find bothersome is the disregard for the hiking guidelines as set forth by the trail's governing body, the ATC:

"ATC strongly discourages hikers from carrying firearms. In areas of the Trail corridor where hunting is legal, hikers may see hunters carrying firearms. On National Park Service lands outside national recreation areas, possession of firearms by private citizens is illegal. The prohibition applies on many other public lands as well. Where firearms are allowed, state laws on licenses, registration, and related matters govern."

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.795277/k.B993/Permits_Fees_and_Regulations.htm

For me, this thread has not been about the right to carry guns. I own two guns. The question at hand is whether one should carry a gun on the AT. I am not afraid of law abiding citizens packing heat. I just happen to believe, like the ATC, that hikers should not carry guns on the AT. Since many of you do not like my statements on the topic, I suggest you contact the ATC and find out why they feel the way they do.

So when I read the disparaging remarks directed to me like "baaaaaa....baaaaaaa", and that I have no clue what I am talking about, I recognize they are without merit. What I do know is that my opinion on the matter matches the opinion of the ATC. I feel I'm in good company. If that makes me a sheep, then so be it.

rickb
01-06-2008, 18:27
I just happen to believe, like the ATC, that hikers should not carry guns on the AT.

The people who do carry are mostly the people who need them least. Strange, that.

yappy
01-06-2008, 19:15
these last few days i have been playing with my AT charm around my neck and thinking about that girl. There are NO words. We lost one of our own.. no, she wasn't a thru hiker but she was a hiker just like everyone that is on white blaze. I look out at my glorious view up here and know that she will never have a chance to see all this wild, ruff country in her life again. How sad. Anger stirs in my heart. Who the he%% does that freak think he is ?

For the first time on this mnt I have locked my doors. I looked over my shoulder while hiking today. Out here where i feel the safest can sometimes be the most treacherous. I am a pretty savvy hiker these days with alot of miles under my feet. But, at 24 I could see myself doing exactly what it sounds like she did. open, friendly and clueless to the danger...esp. some " old guy " who even now I probably could out run. That trust... oh man, is a beautiful thing. I don't want to forget that. i don't want to be out there stressed over ever strange guy i see. YUCK. Part of long distance hiking for me is all the fantastic people I meet.

Anyhow, tomorrow i will be stretching my legs with my 4 dogs for her. The views I soak up will be for that fresh young face on the tv that I don't know... but I do.. I meet girls like her ever single hike and they are awesome..really. I hope that the girls getting ready to hike this year still go out....hike a mile for her. he wins if you don't . Just be smart, aware...use your head and trust your instincts and hike... hike like he@# all the way to Maine.

Sly
01-06-2008, 19:19
Yappy that was real nice. Have you signed the support for family thread? We're going to try to get it tto the family. I think they'd really appeciate such sentiments.

4eyedbuzzard
01-06-2008, 19:32
That is not the issue here. The issue is about guns on the AT. What I find bothersome is the disregard for the hiking guidelines as set forth by the trail's governing body, the ATC:

"ATC strongly discourages hikers from carrying firearms. In areas of the Trail corridor where hunting is legal, hikers may see hunters carrying firearms. On National Park Service lands outside national recreation areas, possession of firearms by private citizens is illegal. The prohibition applies on many other public lands as well. Where firearms are allowed, state laws on licenses, registration, and related matters govern."



"The Appalachian Trail Conservancy is a volunteer-based, private nonprofit organization dedicated to the conservation of the 2,175-mile Appalachian National Scenic Trail, a 250,000-acre greenway extending from Maine to Georgia. Our mission is to ensure that future generations will enjoy the clean air and water, scenic vistas, wildlife and opportunities for simple recreation and renewal along the entire Trail corridor." - http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.715457/

As you note, Federal and State law regulates firearms, not ATC. It has no power to regulate or enforce such matters. It works with NPS, NFS, state park depts etc. But they, not ATC, are the bodies empowered to make rules and enforce them. That ATC sticks its political nose in where it has no mandate is noted. Hikers routinely disregard much of what ATC both encourages and discourages in many other areas of interest as well. I'll submit such subjects as hiking alone, stealth camping, and control of one's dog just for starters.

That you wish to force your opinions on carrying firearms on others is obvious. On the subject of firearms, what ATC, a private non-profit conservancy organization, thinks, is just political rhetoric.

yappy
01-06-2008, 19:34
hi Sly, no I haven't. i will look for it though...

FatMan
01-06-2008, 20:01
"The Appalachian Trail Conservancy is a volunteer-based, private nonprofit organization dedicated to the conservation of the 2,175-mile Appalachian National Scenic Trail, a 250,000-acre greenway extending from Maine to Georgia. Our mission is to ensure that future generations will enjoy the clean air and water, scenic vistas, wildlife and opportunities for simple recreation and renewal along the entire Trail corridor." - http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.715457/

As you note, Federal and State law regulates firearms, not ATC. It has no power to regulate or enforce such matters. It works with NPS, NFS, state park depts etc. But they, not ATC, are the bodies empowered to make rules and enforce them. That ATC sticks its political nose in where it has no mandate is noted. Hikers routinely disregard much of what ATC both encourages and discourages in many other areas of interest as well. I'll submit such subjects as hiking alone, stealth camping, and control of one's dog just for starters.So the fact that the ATC is a voluntary and not a regulatory agency means we should all disregard its recommendations and suggestions. Got it.:rolleyes:

4eyedbuzzard
01-06-2008, 20:05
So the fact that the ATC is a voluntary and not a regulatory agency means we should all disregard its recommendations and suggestions. Got it.:rolleyes:

I'm saying they should stick to what they were created to do, trail conservancy, and leave the subject of firearms legislation, regulation, and enforcement to the Federal and State governments.

Deerleg
01-06-2008, 20:12
....
This coward was caught only because someone wrote down his license plate number .. a random act that will result in bringing a bad guy to justice. If he had thought that there was a high likelihood that someone would have written down his plate number, well, my guess is that Merrideth would not be lost and could take part in this discussion...

....You'd have to have a better argument for me as to why you would object to someone taking note of your plate number than "someone lurking at the trailhead would be suspect". Suspect me all you want ... but be on notice from now on that if you're hiking when and where I happen to be ... I'll have your plate number. That's a promise.

Bad guys take note.

Hard to twist a fact...well said

Lone Wolf
01-06-2008, 20:16
Does anyone else find it ironic that the people who are most interested in packing are those who need protection least?

IF I did "pack" it wouldn't be for my safety. I have a fantasy of blowing away some worthless **** attempting harm on a fellow citizen. Gives me wood thinkin' I could make some prick meet his maker. :D

shelterbuilder
01-06-2008, 20:19
For the record: yes, I own guns; no, I don't carry on the trail.

I was reading the current issue of The Backwoodsman today, and the writer was discussing the presence of weapons in a defensive survival situation, and he used a word that I rarely see in the common discussions - beligerence. His idea was that the presence of a weapon tends to bring out a certain amount of beligerence on the part of the owner, while at the same time turning off that part of the brain which tells an otherwise prudent person to "get the heck out of there - now!" Granted, if you cannot walk (or run) away, then other measures need to come into play, but if you examine most of the pro-carry statements that have been made here and elsewhere, it is apparent that this "beligerent attitude" seems to be present, to one degree or another.

Now, while we are in camp with the person with the weapon and the "beligerent attitude", let's add another person with a weapon and a "beligerent attitude" - personally, I don't like thinking about where this COULD go.

I don't go to the woods to get beligerent - I go to the woods to calm down, to relax and enjoy my surroundings. And I try to watch out for the kooks and the criminals just as much as I try to watch out for the rattlesnakes. I'm aware, and I try to stay aware. If I get stupid and step on Mr. Slithers, I have no one to blame for my inattentiveness, except myself.

CherrypieScout
01-06-2008, 20:22
I have always hiked alone. I leave a detailed itenery, call home as ofen as possible and give updates as to my location and pace, carry mace, and never ask questions of other hikers, such as, where are you going tonight? I do not tell anybody where I am planning on stopping for the evening. I have left areas because I did not feel comfortable with the other lone hiker. If I get the creeps, I move on. I never stay in a shelter close to a road. Did that once and my dog woke me barking at 3 AM. The barking dog stopped the "hiker." He did turn out to be legit. My daddy is looking for a gun for me. He has wanted me to carry a gun for years. Now I might listen. I was told - two rounds of bird shot, then 3 rounds of hollow point. I am not a gun person. I don't even like the NRA......

The Old Fhart
01-06-2008, 20:22
4eyedbuzzard-"I'm saying they should stick to what they were created to do, trail conservancy, and leave the subject of firearms legislation, regulation, and enforcement to the Federal and State governments."There are approximately 200 separate jurisdictions governing the A.T., some of them Federal and State governments. Are you saying you would obey their laws and regulations or carry illegally? Do you suggest that hikers carry firearms in spite of the law prohibiting them in many areas?:-?

Even as a life-long gun owner I agree with the ATC.

Minot
01-06-2008, 20:22
Nope, carrying guns on the AT is BS. No need and very dangerous.

Right. I read everyday about people shooting others as they stagger into camp at night, look suspicious, or startle people. Lots of out of control gun carriers out there.

KirkMcquest
01-06-2008, 20:23
Hey look, the law be damned. It's better to do 5 for carrying a gun, than to end up in a ditch somewhere.

And the truth is that thousands of people have defended themselves from offenders by using firearms. It happens all the time, but the media rarely reports these incidents. I used to be skeptical about this too, until I did a little research.

The instances where firearms were actually taken away and used on their owners are so rare, that they are dwarfed by the number of lives saved by firearm defense.. These nightmare stories mostly exist in the defeatist mind of those timid souls who will never empower themselves, or take an active role in their own safety anyway.

4eyedbuzzard
01-06-2008, 20:25
IF I did "pack" it wouldn't be for my safety. I have a fantasy of blowing away some worthless **** attempting harm on a fellow citizen. Gives me wood thinkin' I could make some prick meet his maker. :D

Mr. Kersey?:cool: :D

The Old Fhart
01-06-2008, 20:26
KirkMcquest-"Hey look, the law be damned....."How can you argue with logic like that.:rolleyes:

SassyWindsor
01-06-2008, 20:32
Sadly, I think the common thread between the victim and the POI was their dogs, leashed or unleashed. I honestly believe if she had not had her dog she would still be alive. just saying.

Skidsteer
01-06-2008, 20:34
Right. I read everyday about people shooting others as they stagger into camp at night, look suspicious, or startle people. Lots of out of control gun carriers out there.

Everyday. Really.

Exaggeration maybe?

Darwin again
01-06-2008, 21:09
IF I did "pack" it wouldn't be for my safety. I have a fantasy of blowing away some worthless **** attempting harm on a fellow citizen. Gives me wood thinkin' I could make some prick meet his maker. :D

...and the very next post talks about beligerence.
The walking cliche....

4eyedbuzzard
01-06-2008, 21:19
There are approximately 200 separate jurisdictions governing the A.T., some of them Federal and State governments. Are you saying you would obey their laws and regulations or carry illegally? Do you suggest that hikers carry firearms in spite of the law prohibiting them in many areas?:-?

Even as a life-long gun owner I agree with the ATC.

TOF,

Via 3 CCW's (NH res, ME & FL non-res) I can legally carry on ALL of the AT in GA, NC, TN, VA, PA, VT, NH, ME(except Baxter) that is not in National Parks. I've stated before in other threads that I probably would NOT carry on a thru-hike, due to the logistics of moving a firearm around via FFL's and keeping a weapon secure at all times. And I have not suggested anywhere that people break the law.

What I have stated consistantly is that carrying a weapon is a legal personal choice available under many of the juristictions that the AT traverses. I'm not telling people they should or should not carry. It's not my place to. That's everyone's individual choice. I only ask in return that they do not press their personal politics and choice not to carry on me. It's a matter mutual respect.

My personal opinion is that ATC downplays crime on the trail. They publish soundbites that "The Appalachian Trail is safer than most places" but give no facts or historical statistics. They don't maintain public records of all the incidents that occur. I think there's a lot more trail-related crime than they like to talk about.

mobileman
01-06-2008, 21:35
What a waste of space this thread is. Many of the "small brains" post of their bravado, bigness, brightness, and boorishness. Talk is cheap. Make better use of your time. Get off the internet and help somebody . If you want to do something worthwhile, kill this thread.

4eyedbuzzard
01-06-2008, 21:48
Clicking on a link to a thread is like tuning in to a TV station. If you don't like the show, change the channel.

Thanks for your addition to the discussion though.

MOWGLI
01-06-2008, 21:48
My personal opinion is that ATC downplays crime on the trail. They publish soundbites that "The Appalachian Trail is safer than most places" but give no facts or historical statistics. They don't maintain public records of all the incidents that occur. I think there's a lot more trail-related crime than they like to talk about.

I read your post and thought, boy, he hasn't spent a lot of time on the trail. Then I noticed that you plan to hike in 2010.

I have said it before and will say it again. It is ALMOST ALWAYS someone who hasn't hiked the trail who feels the need to lecture those that have about the way things really are on the AT. I wonder why that is. :-?

Does crime occur on the AT? Yes. Is it prevalent? No. Is it a relatively safe place considering the millions of people who use the trail each year? You betcha!

PS: I lived within 15 minutes of the trail for more than 40 years, so I think I have a pretty good perspective how safe or unsafe the trail is.

KirkMcquest
01-06-2008, 21:58
How can you argue with logic like that.:rolleyes:

Well,....why would you. The alternative logic implies that you'd rather die than break the law. I don't know how to communicate with somebody whose been brainwashed into that level of obedience. We're just too different, we'll never see eye to eye.

Luckily (hopefully) most people are still capable of independent thought and some of them might end up on a jury.

CoyoteWhips
01-06-2008, 22:16
Hey look, the law be damned. It's better to do 5 for carrying a gun, than to end up in a ditch somewhere.


How can you argue with logic like that.:rolleyes:


Well,....why would you. The alternative logic implies that you'd rather die than break the law.

One might argue that you left out the massive third choice of hiking the AT without encountering any necessity for a gun fight.

But, I don't know you. Maybe people do want to kill you everywhere you go.

Darwin again
01-06-2008, 22:22
One might argue that you left out the massive third choice of hiking the AT without encountering any necessity for a gun fight.

But, I don't know you. Maybe people do want to kill you everywhere you go.

THAT response, sir, is a thing of beauty!:D:D

bigben
01-06-2008, 22:30
I'm about sick of hearing how carrying a gun on the AT is DANGEROUS. It's not if you are proficient, trained and know your gun inside and out. If I chose to carry on the AT, which I haven't as of yet but legally could (have a CCW), no one would know it. It wouldn't go off accidentally. No other hikers would be in danger of accidentally being shot. Under any circumstances. Being proficient, trained and careful take all these thing out of the equation. If you not all of the above, then threre could be issues, but don't blame the gun, blame the moron who should know better.

If every single person on the AT had a gun on them, it's safe to assume many wouldn't know how to use it safely. So say "Untrained hikers carrying guns they've never practiced with on the AT is dangerous." Because it would be. But don't generalize and simply say guns on the AT are damgerous and stupid.

Bigben

The Old Fhart
01-06-2008, 22:50
4eyedbuzzard-"TOF, Via 3 CCW's (NH res, ME & FL non-res) I can legally carry on ALL of the AT in GA, NC, TN, VA, PA, VT, NH, ME(except Baxter) that is not in National Parks. I've stated before in other threads that I probably would NOT carry on a thru-hike, due to the logistics of moving a firearm around via FFL's and keeping a weapon secure at all times. And I have not suggested anywhere that people break the law."That answers the question to my satisfaction and I wouldn't feel the least bit uneasy about you carrying a gun as you described. The attitude that worries me are the people who say:
"The alternative logic implies that you'd rather die than break the law." I don't know how to communicate with somebody who's been brainwashed into that level of paranoia. :D

take-a-knee
01-06-2008, 23:31
That answers the question to my satisfaction and I wouldn't feel the least bit uneasy about you carrying a gun as you described. The attitude that worries me are the people who say: I don't know how to communicate with somebody who's been brainwashed into that level of paranoia. :D

Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they still aren't out to get me!

4eyedbuzzard
01-06-2008, 23:32
I read your post and thought, boy, he hasn't spent a lot of time on the trail. Then I noticed that you plan to hike in 2010.

I have said it before and will say it again. It is ALMOST ALWAYS someone who hasn't hiked the trail who feels the need to lecture those that have about the way things really are on the AT. I wonder why that is. :-?

Does crime occur on the AT? Yes. Is it prevalent? No. Is it a relatively safe place considering the millions of people who use the trail each year? You betcha!

PS: I lived within 15 minutes of the trail for more than 40 years, so I think I have a pretty good perspective how safe or unsafe the trail is.

FWIW, I hiked a lot in the GSMNP area as a kid with my uncle back in the late '60's and early '70's, did Springer to Damascus in '76(abandoned thru), hiked a lot in the NJ/NY AT section and the Kittatiny trail system from '80 - mid '90's with the kids and have hiked most of the AT here in NH, parts of western ME, as well as many other trails around the WMNF area in more recent years. Now I'm definitely no LW, WD, WF, or the like, but I can hold my own in the woods, although I hike too slow and take too many coffee breaks for some.;)

And for the record, I've never been attacked on the trail by a human. The biggest threats I've encountered on the trail were a couple of loose dog incidents, both with idiots for owners.

That said, ATC's "a few crimes of violence have occured" is misleading. At minimum, 9 murders(now 10) on or near the trail have occured. That's closer to a dozen, not a few. And that excludes any incidents where any victim may not have been known to be on the trail and never found, and any missing persons that were never solved. And though I have no reports, I would reasonably guess that there have been many times that number of non-fatal violent crimes such as robbery, assault, and rape on or near the trail. Is it common? No. But it's A WHOLE LOT MORE than "a few", and more than the feel-good crowd wants to talk about.

People can talk all they want about how safe the trail is and how millions and millions use the trail every year without incident. It's all meaningless BS when you're the one about to become the next member of the "few". And someone, a real live human being, someone's daughter or son or husband or wife, is going to fill that next victim's role. These "few" crimes happen to real people, just like you and I, and our children, simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, through no fault of their own. If you feel that it'll never happen to you - fine. But I don't think it's fair to criticize others who choose not to dismiss that risk, however small you percieve it to be, and do what they are legally entitled to in order to reduce it and be secure.

Montego
01-06-2008, 23:33
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they still aren't out to get me!

LOL take-a-knee :D

slowroller
01-06-2008, 23:46
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Yeah, what Ted said.....

jessicacomp
01-07-2008, 00:07
this doesnt apply for thru-hiking, but if you are just out for the day, I think it is a good idea to drive around the parking lot, and unless there is a ridiculous amount of cars, write down all their license plate numbers. Just leave a small note in your car w/ all the numbers and at what time you wrote them down. That way if something happens, at least they might get ahold of a witness if nothing else..
Other than that, I tie pepperspray around my wrist, wear a whistle around my neck and keep my cell phone on my person.

Spastic
01-07-2008, 00:52
I go to the wilderness to get away from all the kookiness and paranoia prevalent in our society, and now i'm displeased to say that a group of whiteblaze vigilantes with just such characteristics will henceforth be snooping around trailheads, photographing anyone who dares park their car for a dayhike. Doesn't anyone else find this completely nutty and uneffective? This banana emoticon was never as appropriate:banana:banana:banana

4eyedbuzzard
01-07-2008, 00:59
I go to the wilderness to get away from all the kookiness and paranoia prevalent in our society, and now i'm displeased to say that a group of whiteblaze vigilantes with just such characteristics will henceforth be snooping around trailheads, photographing anyone who dares park their car for a dayhike. Doesn't anyone else find this completely nutty and uneffective? This banana emoticon was never as appropriate:banana:banana:banana

Whiteblaze vigilantes?:eek: Now who's paranoid?:-?

BTW, do you feel lucky today?;)

:banana :banana :banana

River Runner
01-07-2008, 01:10
I go to the wilderness to get away from all the kookiness and paranoia prevalent in our society, and now i'm displeased to say that a group of whiteblaze vigilantes with just such characteristics will henceforth be snooping around trailheads, photographing anyone who dares park their car for a dayhike. Doesn't anyone else find this completely nutty and uneffective? This banana emoticon was never as appropriate:banana:banana:banana

So how is someone taking a photo of your car going to prevent your getting away from kookiness and paranoia? More than likely you won't even be there at the time.

If you're that paranoid, maybe you should just stop doing whatever it is that is making you worried about someone knowing your whereabouts. :-?

rafe
01-07-2008, 01:17
If you're that paranoid, maybe you should just stop doing whatever it is that is making you worried about someone knowing your whereabouts. :-?

Umm, no, I'd say Spastic made a good point, but unfortunately it went over your head. :rolleyes:

I'm not that worried about WB vigilantes, tho. I suspect most WBers don't get that close to the actual AT, at least not very often. Too scary!

Lone Wolf
01-07-2008, 09:40
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Yeah, what Ted said.....

I love my uncle Ted!

KirkMcquest
01-07-2008, 10:18
One might argue that you left out the massive third choice of hiking the AT without encountering any necessity for a gun fight.

Then there is no problem , is there? The premise of my point was centered around the legality of having to defend yourself with a firearm.

You might actually want to know what you're talking about, before you leap in. Especially with snide and foolish remarks.

KirkMcquest
01-07-2008, 10:23
I go to the wilderness to get away from all the kookiness and paranoia prevalent in our society, and now i'm displeased to say that a group of whiteblaze vigilantes with just such characteristics will henceforth be snooping around trailheads, photographing anyone who dares park their car for a dayhike. Doesn't anyone else find this completely nutty and uneffective? This banana emoticon was never as appropriate:banana:banana:banana


Yes, it is nutty. It is a paranoid and exaggerated response to the recent tragedy. It is also harmless and I don't expect it to last long.

Lone Wolf
01-07-2008, 10:29
...........

weary
01-07-2008, 11:16
....By all means be wary of people you get a strange feeling about, but don't let the actions of a very few destroy your enjoyment of the outdoors. ......
But also be kind. There are a lot of us strange hikers -- just hiking is considered strange by many. Most of us are pretty harmless.

Weary

weary
01-07-2008, 11:23
A few rules I have followed I hike alone 98% of the time. I don't mingle I don't hike to make friends . I avoid contact on most trails if possible,I rarely stay at a shelter and usualy stealt camp. I don't carry a gun but I do carry a knife and anytime the hair on the back of my neck rises I have it in my hand I have a dog that responds to a one word attack command. I have never had to defend myself on any trail, I have used these defence methods in urban surroundings.I will not stop hiking alone and I will not hike in fear.
I would get a "strange feeling" if I met cowboy nichols on the trail.

Weary

weary
01-07-2008, 11:31
I posted this in another thread...

I think people realize that every time you leave your home you can be a victim, accidentally or otherwise. Even your home is not 100% safe. Here are some statistics that might add some perspective...

http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

Don't be afraid to hike, just hike smart.
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I may even start locking my doors. If I can find the key. It was around somewheres, when we moved in 45 years ago.

Weary

MOWGLI
01-07-2008, 11:34
I talked to a friend and fellow hiker who related a story to me this morning. The year that the two young women were killed in Shenandoah National Park, my buddy was hiking on the AT in Connecticut. He arrived at a shelter after dark to be greeted by a flashlight shining in his eyes. Of course, that blinded him initially. When he was able to regain his night vision, he realized that the man in the shelter was pointing a pistol at him. My buddy identified himself as a hiker, and the situation was defused.

That's a true story. Be careful out there folks.

Lone Wolf
01-07-2008, 11:37
I would get a "strange feeling" if I met cowboy nichols on the trail.

Weary

i like meeting "strange" types on the trail a lot more than your "typical" type hikers. strange folks don't ask stupid ?? or small talk.

typical- "are you through?"
me-"through what?"
typical-"through-hiking."
me-"no, i will be in 3 hours when i get to the campsite."

weary
01-07-2008, 11:39
A firearm in the hands of a person who has common sense and is trained and/or has lots of practice is not dangerous for anyone but the would be assailant.

Simple as that.
Sure. And I'm sure the guy a year or two ago who shot his son in the head because he was worried about intruders believes that.

Weary

weary
01-07-2008, 11:49
My feeling exactly. She had apperantly been talking to him for some time up and down the trail, according to reports. He waited until they got back to the parking area and in the moment that she had her back to him, he struck, this by evidence in the parking area. No gun or any other weapon would have helped her. So by all means bring your gun, just don't ever turn your back to a stranger. Cause at that point your gun is useless.
Especially, if he knows you have it -- and wants it for himself.

weary
01-07-2008, 12:26
....That you wish to force your opinions on carrying firearms on others is obvious. On the subject of firearms, what ATC, a private non-profit conservancy organization, thinks, is just political rhetoric.
On National Park Service lands outside national recreation areas, possession of firearms by private citizens is illegal. Thru hikers carrying weapons where the trail passes through National Park Service lands, are not law-abiding citizens.

Weary

Lone Wolf
01-07-2008, 12:38
Thru hikers carrying weapons where the trail passes through National Park Service lands, are not law-abiding citizens.


neither are the ones carrying dope and there's lots of hikers carrying that. i'll take my chances with a legally owned handgun

Sly
01-07-2008, 12:42
What about dope smoking hand gun owners? ;)

dessertrat
01-07-2008, 12:55
Especially, if he knows you have it -- and wants it for himself.

That's the best reason to carry concealed instead of open. The second best reason being that it's more polite to those who are bothered by it.:p

4eyedbuzzard
01-07-2008, 13:09
On National Park Service lands outside national recreation areas, possession of firearms by private citizens is illegal. Thru hikers carrying weapons where the trail passes through National Park Service lands, are not law-abiding citizens.

Weary

I agree, and have never advocated that people carry illegally. But on well over half of the AT, people may legally carry with proper permits. My post was in reply to a post stating that people shouldn't carry on the AT because the ATC discourages the carrying of firearms.

From ATC's FAQ's:
"Don't carry firearms. They are prohibited on National Park Service lands and in most other areas without a permit, they could be turned against you or result in an accidental shooting, and they are extra weight."

"They could be turned against you?" - This sounds suspiciously like anti-gun/gun control political rhetoric. More likely, a firearm could be used to protect oneself during one of the "few" instances of crime ATC says happens on the trail.

ATC isn't empowered to make enforceable regulations. Citizens ultimately do so through their elected government. Regardless of what ATC's political position is on firearms, their assessment of risk level on the trail, or their assessment of the defensive value of a firearm should an incident arise where one might be beneficial, the decision to carry a weapon where someone may legally do so is a personal one.

weary
01-07-2008, 13:14
....Via 3 CCW's (NH res, ME & FL non-res) I can legally carry on ALL of the AT in GA, NC, TN, VA, PA, VT, NH, ME(except Baxter) that is not in National Parks. .....
The National Park Service owns most of the trail in Maine, so carrying in Maine is mostly illegal, even outside of Baxter Park. The National Park Service has bought land in most of the trail states during the 40 year effort to put the entire trail into public ownership.

Anyone that wants to both thru hike and carry wherever it's legal has a massive research job ahead of them and a lot of shuffling of guns off the trail. Forget the traditional six month thru hike -- plan on 9, maybe 12.

Let me help you get started. in Maine, the Mahoosucs are legal for carrying guns, grafton Notch illegal, then legal again to near Andover, then illegal until legal through 12 miles of Four Ponds, then illegal through to the Bigelow Preserve, which is legal for carrying. Carrying after Bigelow is mostly illegal until near the end of the 100-mile wilderness, except for a short legal section over the Barren-Chairback range. A part of the Nahmakanta section also may be legal, but otherwise the trail is illegal for carriers, except maybe a short section through Baxter Park, where hunting is allowed.

I hope this is helpfull to any law abiding thru hiking gun carriers out there.

Weary

Tin Man
01-07-2008, 14:04
So, if a hiker obeys the law in NPS lands and leaves his gun at home, what does he say to the cretin who pulls a gun on him? "You are breaking the law, shame on you." ?

BigStu
01-07-2008, 14:44
So, if a hiker obeys the law in NPS lands and leaves his gun at home, what does he say to the cretin who pulls a gun on him? "You are breaking the law, shame on you." ?

I don't have the option.. coming from the UK (albeit for a short trip) I would not be allowed to carry a weapon and with my zero-experience with small arms this is probably best.

Over the past few days I have thought about this a lot even to the extent of considering whether I should hike 'unprotected' :eek: Fortunately that thought soon passed.

As with so many things, the best way forward does seem to be vigilance, trust instincts, act sensibly with your fellow hikers so as not to cause suspicion or anxiety. Some may feel this is reckless but I have no option if I wish to hike my little bit of the AT. I will trust myself and my instincts ...what else can I do if I am determined to hike ?

4eyedbuzzard
01-07-2008, 14:45
The National Park Service owns most of the trail in Maine, so carrying in Maine is mostly illegal, even outside of Baxter Park. The National Park Service has bought land in most of the trail states during the 40 year effort to put the entire trail into public ownership.

Anyone that wants to both thru hike and carry wherever it's legal has a massive research job ahead of them and a lot of shuffling of guns off the trail. Forget the traditional six month thru hike -- plan on 9, maybe 12.

Let me help you get started. in Maine, the Mahoosucs are legal for carrying guns, grafton Notch illegal, then legal again to near Andover, then illegal until legal through 12 miles of Four Ponds, then illegal through to the Bigelow Preserve, which is legal for carrying. Carrying after Bigelow is mostly illegal until near the end of the 100-mile wilderness, except for a short legal section over the Barren-Chairback range. A part of the Nahmakanta section also may be legal, but otherwise the trail is illegal for carriers, except maybe a short section through Baxter Park, where hunting is allowed.

I hope this is helpfull to any law abiding thru hiking gun carriers out there.

Weary


Yours is a common misunderstanding. NPS administers the AT corridor lands under the National Scenic Trails Act, but those AT trail corridor lands that are not in designated National Parks(i.e. GSMNP and SNP) are not a National Park. As such the federal prohibition against firearms does not apply. EDIT: Hunting is not allowed in the trail corridor proper, but the legal carrying of firearms is.

I am not a legal expert on Maine laws, but my understanding is that my CCW is valid throughout the state except where prohibited by other laws/regs. Baxter prohibits all firearms to my knowledge, with no CCW exemption as I recall. Other ME state parks prohibit firearms at certain times and places relating to trapping/hunting activities but don't ban CCW from my understanding.

Tin Man
01-07-2008, 14:53
I don't have the option.. coming from the UK (albeit for a short trip) I would not be allowed to carry a weapon and with my zero-experience with small arms this is probably best.

Over the past few days I have thought about this a lot even to the extent of considering whether I should hike 'unprotected' :eek: Fortunately that thought soon passed.

As with so many things, the best way forward does seem to be vigilance, trust instincts, act sensibly with your fellow hikers so as not to cause suspicion or anxiety. Some may feel this is reckless but I have no option if I wish to hike my little bit of the AT. I will trust myself and my instincts ...what else can I do if I am determined to hike ?


I gave 'protection' a thought myself this week, for about 10 seconds. And I am sticking to my previous thoughts that hiking is a lot safer than many other activities and no need to carry a gun, just act sensibly as you and others have stated. No worries.

Darwin again
01-07-2008, 14:56
neither are the ones carrying dope and there's lots of hikers carrying that. i'll take my chances with a legally owned handgun

Dope and guns are not the same thing. Unless you intended to mean that they are equivalent.:rolleyes:

Tipi Walter
01-07-2008, 14:57
The National Park Service owns most of the trail in Maine, so carrying in Maine is mostly illegal, even outside of Baxter Park. The National Park Service has bought land in most of the trail states during the 40 year effort to put the entire trail into public ownership.

Anyone that wants to both thru hike and carry wherever it's legal has a massive research job ahead of them and a lot of shuffling of guns off the trail. Forget the traditional six month thru hike -- plan on 9, maybe 12.

Let me help you get started. in Maine, the Mahoosucs are legal for carrying guns, grafton Notch illegal, then legal again to near Andover, then illegal until legal through 12 miles of Four Ponds, then illegal through to the Bigelow Preserve, which is legal for carrying. Carrying after Bigelow is mostly illegal until near the end of the 100-mile wilderness, except for a short legal section over the Barren-Chairback range. A part of the Nahmakanta section also may be legal, but otherwise the trail is illegal for carriers, except maybe a short section through Baxter Park, where hunting is allowed.

I hope this is helpfull to any law abiding thru hiking gun carriers out there.

Weary


For all the rules, fees, regulations and restrictions imposed on the low-impact backpacker just for hiking and camping, it feels good to see the Nanny State doing the same thing to the gun owners. Welcome to the world of wilderness and outdoor recreation.

dessertrat
01-07-2008, 15:01
I don't have the option.. coming from the UK (albeit for a short trip) I would not be allowed to carry a weapon and with my zero-experience with small arms this is probably best.

Over the past few days I have thought about this a lot even to the extent of considering whether I should hike 'unprotected' :eek: Fortunately that thought soon passed.

As with so many things, the best way forward does seem to be vigilance, trust instincts, act sensibly with your fellow hikers so as not to cause suspicion or anxiety. Some may feel this is reckless but I have no option if I wish to hike my little bit of the AT. I will trust myself and my instincts ...what else can I do if I am determined to hike ?

BigStu:

Please on't believe the hype about dangers in the United States. I know people on here have talked about bears and snakes, and now crazed killers. And if you follow foxnews or cnn all the time, you think all we do over here is kill each other.

But millions of people use the AT every year, whether for day hikes or multi-day hikes. MILLIONS! And a very few of them die, but usually of things like falls and heart attacks, which can happen anywhere in the world.

If you come here from the UK to hike, don't spoil your trip by being paranoid about dangers. Just exercise the same common sense that you would exercise walking about in the UK. (Plus your new whiteblaze knowledge of bears and snakes, which really aren't that dangerous either, when understood).

Tin Man
01-07-2008, 15:24
Dessertrat is quite correct. Hiking is a relatively safe sport here, but be very afraid of getting from the airport to the trail! :) Sorry, just kidding, transportation is generally safe too, but I think hiking is safer.

The Old Fhart
01-07-2008, 15:51
4eyedbuzzard-"Yours is a common misunderstanding. NPS administers the AT corridor lands under the National Scenic Trails Act, but those AT trail corridor lands that are not in designated National Parks(i.e. GSMNP and SNP) are not a National Park. As such the federal prohibition against firearms does not apply. EDIT: Hunting is not allowed in the trail corridor proper, but the legal carrying of firearms is."I would suggest that you contact the:

Boundary Program Mgr.
Appalachian Trail Conservancy
4 East First St.
Boiling Springs, PA 17007
(717) 258-5771 Ext. 208

who's job is to “work with the National Park Service and 20 different volunteer trail clubs from VA to ME to help them with monitoring and maintaining the boundaries of the National Park Service lands that have been acquired to protect the Appalachian Trail."

The NPS owns land near Carlisle/Wertzville, PA, for instance, as well as other places. NPS rules apply to all their lands as I understand the rules, not just in a couple of specific locations that are designated as parks.

Digger'02
01-07-2008, 16:52
The Appalachian Trail National Park Office always says that they are 'the longest, Skinniest national Park in the nation"

I think that the AT on non-FS lands is a National Park.

The ATPO also has a Ranger..the best darn ranger on the planet, and I think he ould say that the AT is a national park.

Catnip
01-07-2008, 17:48
I got a lot out of reading a book called "Trail Safe: Averting Threatening Human Behavior in the Outdoors."

I had my teens read it, too. Lots of good advice for any environment, IMHO: It's available free online at GORP:

http://gorp.away.com/gorp/publishers/wildernesspress/trailsafe/trailsafe.htm

Lone Wolf
01-07-2008, 17:54
Dope and guns are not the same thing.

dope is illegal, guns aren't. don't worry about me carrying a legally purchased handgun and i won't worry about you illegally carrying illegal dope. :rolleyes:

gypsy
01-07-2008, 17:54
I hike and trail run alone - Colorado, Texas, Ohio, soon sections of the AT. I have thought about this case all day and what I can do. She was hiker experienced, a runner, left a note, martial arts and a dog... this would seem to be good, to be enough. I'm sad (and pray for everyone touched). I'm also pissed. The implications to me as an alone female is disconcerting. I just want to enjoy the outdoors and not be fearful. Alas. I plan to always leave a note at my house, tell family where I'm hiking; buying mace; always have my cell phone; watch surroundings; don't be so trusting of others; put my security above my natural tendency to be friendly and nice. It's a hard lesson to learn. If someone has other suggestions, please add.
I'm pretty pissed off too! But instead of mace, I think I might pack some heat.

Lone Wolf
01-07-2008, 17:56
I'm pretty pissed off too! But instead of mace, I think I might pack some heat.

g*ddam! :D

mrc237
01-07-2008, 18:01
Dessertrat is quite correct. Hiking is a relatively safe sport here, but be very afraid of getting from the airport to the trail! :) Sorry, just kidding, transportation is generally safe too, but I think hiking is safer.

The most dangerous thing about hiking is driving to the trailhead!!!

mrc237
01-07-2008, 18:02
I'm pretty pissed off too! But instead of mace, I think I might pack some heat.

Geez Gyp I think you're hot enough!!:D

BigStu
01-07-2008, 18:49
To Dessertrat & TinMan.. thanks for the comments

While I can understand the concerns and feelings expressed about arming and protecting oneself when it all comes down to it I shall, as I said, trust myself and my instincts and continue to look forward to setting foot on the AT in a little over 3 months time.

Worst comes to the worst and I shall do an impromptu and desperate display of Morris dancing which should confuse any ne'er-do-well long enough to do a 'runner' for some cover.. with a bit of luck there will be no snakes or bears in the cover :D

Darwin again
01-07-2008, 19:11
dope is illegal, guns aren't. don't worry about me carrying a legally purchased handgun and i won't worry about you illegally carrying illegal dope. :rolleyes:

I don't think I can even lift you, wolfie!:D

Captn
01-07-2008, 19:17
I go to the wilderness to get away from all the kookiness and paranoia prevalent in our society, and now i'm displeased to say that a group of whiteblaze vigilantes with just such characteristics will henceforth be snooping around trailheads, photographing anyone who dares park their car for a dayhike. Doesn't anyone else find this completely nutty and uneffective? This banana emoticon was never as appropriate:banana:banana:banana

You know ... I really wouldn't mind having a logical discussion about this subject with you .. .but it's obvious that you're another one of these types that your opinion is the only opinion .. and if everyone in the world were as smart as you, then they would obviously see things your way .... yeah right.

I honestly thought I would get some intelligent discourse on this subject instead of childish name calling ( snooping around, vigilante, nutty ) .... But it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

Here goes ..... up until now the nuts have left the trails alone pretty much and focused on the cities to find their targets. Once other nuts get the idea, from the TV news mind you, that trails may be a good place to find victims, I expect that you'll see an increase in this type of crime. Why do I say this ... well, look at school shootings .... the first one that happened was so talked about on TV that other people got the idea .... now we have what ... 4 or 5 a year? Car jackings were isolated incidents until the media started talking about them every single night on the box, now they happen all over the place.

Do you really think that these criminal types are smart enough to figure out this stuff on their own ... or share ideas over the internet? The TV news spreads this stuff like a Virus.


What will be the likely response to an escalation of crime near trailheads? Gee ... some people will start avoiding the trails, but many will start carrying weapons for "self protection".

If that happens it's only a matter of time before people start getting accidently shot when they are hiking because someone "felt threatened", or you'll start seeing a lot more police in the backcountry, or you'll start seeing really stupid people come up with great ideas like putting cameras in the backcountry.

My thought is how do we, as a community, get in front of the issue and PREVENT it from becoming a larger problem. How do we as a GROUP find additional ways to look out for each other in the backcountry and have our mutual favorite pastime remain SAFE for all to enjoy.

So ... we can either

1.) take some positive action ... which, by the way, is the discussion that I wanted to start with this thread. Ideas by which the COMMUNITY can non-violently and safely take care of itself and each other.
2.) Bury our head in the sand and hope that it won't become a problem ... gee .... I wonder if doing nothing and hoping that something will just go away has ever solved anything?
3.) Go every person for themselves .... and I'll be happy to go stand in line and pick up my firearm with everyone else ... because I'm going to continue to enjoy the outdoors ... and I WILL protect me and mine.
4.) Hope that the big ol' government will do something wonderful to save us from ourselves .... and isn't their track record just amazing at helping out the average joe?

In closing ... I don't know why you in particular have an issue with someone taking a picture of your car or writing down you're license plate number, and honestly, I really don't care, But I think that this subject is way too important to someone to just kill it by calling others a few unflattering names ...... so, call me whatever names you want .... but THREE people have likely already died RECIENTLY and at least I'm for doing something to take a positive step forward twords safety for the entire community .... instead of sitting back tossing darts and calling others names who don't share your point of view, or passing out the ammunition.

Of course ... they weren't related to you ... so why should you care about anyone but yourself? Thanks ... the only thing you've managed to do is to reduce my faith further in human kind.

Spastic
01-07-2008, 19:50
Captn, I have no doubt that you have the best of intentions, and are probably a decent, upstanding fellow. And i commend the idea of proactive measures to protect hikers. That beings said, your particular suggestion was complete rubbish. Our entire system works on the idea of innocent until proven guilty. You seem to be working with a different idea. If we were talking about photographing the cars outside a crack house or house of prostitution, that would be different because there is reasonable suspicion that people going to said places are engaged in criminal activity. There is no reason to believe that people parked at a trailhead are engaged in criminal activity, therefore you are making an assumption based on an irrational fear of what COULD happen, not what is happening or is likely to happen. And what are you going to do when the hikers come back to their car and catch you photographing their vehicle? Do you think they'll believe your explanation? Or are you going to pull out your gun on them when they eye you suspiciously? It seems like your idea would cause more confrontations and trouble than it would solve.

Darwin again
01-07-2008, 19:54
I sit here watching the reactions to this terrible event and can only think that folks need to sit back and take a breath and think for a moment.

I think it's important to understand that because one person -- a former police officer apparently -- thought something looked odd and took down a license plate number and so a possible multiple murderer, maybe a serial killer, is behind bars.

Captn, this sounds silly, but feel free to take as many pics of my car at the trailhead as you want. :rolleyes:

We have to watch out for each other out there, not become prisoners of fear.

Darwin again
01-07-2008, 20:00
Captn, I have no doubt that you have the best of intentions, and are probably a decent, upstanding fellow. And i commend the idea of proactive measures to protect hikers. That beings said, your particular suggestion was complete rubbish. Our entire system works on the idea of innocent until proven guilty. You seem to be working with a different idea. If we were talking about photographing the cars outside a crack house or house of prostitution, that would be different because there is reasonable suspicion that people going to said places are engaged in criminal activity. There is no reason to believe that people parked at a trailhead are engaged in criminal activity, therefore you are making an assumption based on an irrational fear of what COULD happen, not what is happening or is likely to happen. And what are you going to do when the hikers come back to their car and catch you photographing their vehicle? Do you think they'll believe your explanation? Or are you going to pull out your gun on them when they eye you suspiciously? It seems like your idea would cause more confrontations and trouble than it would solve.

I think his idea isn't that you're possibly guilty, but that the license/car make-model information he takes note of with camera or notepad might be that of a criminal and be useful to police.
(See also: How Hilton was caught.)

Tin Man
01-07-2008, 20:56
Worst comes to the worst and I shall do an impromptu and desperate display of Morris dancing which should confuse any ne'er-do-well long enough to do a 'runner' for some cover.. with a bit of luck there will be no snakes or bears in the cover :D

Snakes and bears are not an issue, ticks on the other hand will bite your bum and give you a case of the Lyme! Check your body daily.

4eyedbuzzard
01-07-2008, 21:08
I would suggest that you contact the:

Boundary Program Mgr.
Appalachian Trail Conservancy
4 East First St.
Boiling Springs, PA 17007
(717) 258-5771 Ext. 208

who's job is to “work with the National Park Service and 20 different volunteer trail clubs from VA to ME to help them with monitoring and maintaining the boundaries of the National Park Service lands that have been acquired to protect the Appalachian Trail."

The NPS owns land near Carlisle/Wertzville, PA, for instance, as well as other places. NPS rules apply to all their lands as I understand the rules, not just in a couple of specific locations that are designated as parks.

Didn't contact anybody, but after re-reading the law(Title 36 USC)
I am probably wrong :datz:o (It's never happened before:rolleyes: ;) )

My apologies to you and weary. :o It does appear that if those corridor lands were purchased by the Federal gov and administration given to the NPS/Interior firearms would not be allowed except by special provision with the state they are in for the purpose of allowing carry during hunting season(which is petty much all year as some species have no closed seasons).

On a side note, it would also seem that bear sprays(OC) are also prohibited on NPS lands anywhere but in Alaska(where allowed under 36 CFR 13.30), so members here who are considering carrying OC spray on a hike passing through any Federal NPS lands in the lower 48 should realize that OC spray is classified the same as a handgun - as a prohibited weapon (36 CFR 2:4).


36 CFR 1:4 Weapon means a firearm, compressed gas or spring-powered pistol or rifle, bow and arrow, crossbow, blowgun, speargun, hand-thrown spear, slingshot, irritant gas device, explosive device, or any other implement designed to discharge missiles, and includes a weapon the possession of which is prohibited under the laws of the State in which the park area or portion thereof is located.

MOWGLI
01-07-2008, 21:16
irritant gas device

By Damascus, most NOBO thru-hikers come equipped with one of these.

Tin Man
01-07-2008, 21:19
By Damascus, most NOBO thru-hikers come equipped with one of these.

I doubt it takes that long to build up pressure. In fact, I am pretty sure the Approach Trail would do it for many.

Tin Man
01-07-2008, 21:21
Didn't contact anybody, but after re-reading the law(Title 36 USC)
I am probably wrong :datz:o (It's never happened before:rolleyes: ;) )

My apologies to you and weary. :o It does appear that if those corridor lands were purchased by the Federal gov and administration given to the NPS/Interior firearms would not be allowed except by special provision with the state they are in for the purpose of allowing carry during hunting season(which is petty much all year as some species have no closed seasons).

On a side note, it would also seem that bear sprays(OC) are also prohibited on NPS lands anywhere but in Alaska(where allowed under 36 CFR 13.30), so members here who are considering carrying OC spray on a hike passing through any Federal NPS lands in the lower 48 should realize that OC spray is classified the same as a handgun - as a prohibited weapon (36 CFR 2:4).


36 CFR 1:4 Weapon means a firearm, compressed gas or spring-powered pistol or rifle, bow and arrow, crossbow, blowgun, speargun, hand-thrown spear, slingshot, irritant gas device, explosive device, or any other implement designed to discharge missiles, and includes a weapon the possession of which is prohibited under the laws of the State in which the park area or portion thereof is located.

Egad. Hand-thrown spears are illegal??? Do they bust everyone with a Leki pole or hiking stick of some sort or another?

Montego
01-07-2008, 21:24
Fine. Now I got to find where I stored that Boomarang :D

The Old Fhart
01-07-2008, 21:29
4eyedbuzzard-"My apologies to you and weary."No apology needed, with about 200 jurisdictions in this patchwork we call the Appalachian Trail, it is hard to know exactly who owns what and what the specific laws and rules are. I appreciate you checking.

As a side note, there are also some states or areas that may also regulate the length of a knife blade as well as the type of knife.

4eyedbuzzard
01-07-2008, 21:30
Yeah, I'm bummed, what am I gonna do now with this blowgun and all these curare dipped darts?

wtmntcaretaker
01-07-2008, 21:32
Im sure just as long as self defence was your reason for using the blow gun you would be ok, as far as the law is conserned. ;)

Captn
01-07-2008, 21:42
Captn, I have no doubt that you have the best of intentions, and are probably a decent, upstanding fellow. And i commend the idea of proactive measures to protect hikers. That beings said, your particular suggestion was complete rubbish. Our entire system works on the idea of innocent until proven guilty. You seem to be working with a different idea. If we were talking about photographing the cars outside a crack house or house of prostitution, that would be different because there is reasonable suspicion that people going to said places are engaged in criminal activity. There is no reason to believe that people parked at a trailhead are engaged in criminal activity, therefore you are making an assumption based on an irrational fear of what COULD happen, not what is happening or is likely to happen. And what are you going to do when the hikers come back to their car and catch you photographing their vehicle? Do you think they'll believe your explanation? Or are you going to pull out your gun on them when they eye you suspiciously? It seems like your idea would cause more confrontations and trouble than it would solve.

Great .... then lets hear some ideas from you.

I welcome some other input and ideas on how we help the entire community keep from becoming the wild wild west.

This guy is in jail because someone wrote down his plate number. Perhaps we should let him go and arrest the guy who wrote down the number because he was "lurking" around the trailhead and looking suspicious when he wrote down the number?

80 percent of americans carry cell phones ... over 60 percent of those have cameras ..... how long do you think someone would have to "lurk" around the trailhead to snap a quick pic of the three or four cars that are parked there?

And why in the world would I care what you thought of my taking a picture of your car? What are you gonna do .... pull out your gun and shoot me for snapping a pic? Why would you care?

Innocent until proven guilty is right .... what does that have to do with taking someone's plate number down? Is is assuming someone is guilty to take their picture at an ATM when they put in their card? Or for the local mall to put security cameras on the light poles? Or perhaps it's calling someone guilty to have a security camera in a bank or a gas station.

It's called being prudent ....

Kirby
01-07-2008, 21:44
I saw OC spray mentioned earlier, does bear spray fall in that category as well?

Kirby

cheflovesbeer
01-07-2008, 21:50
Captn it is a good idea to take a pic or two. It is legal as there is no expectation of privacy in public. The damn poparazi can take pictures of you in your house as long as they are legally aloud to be where they shot the pic from.

4eyedbuzzard
01-07-2008, 22:14
I saw OC spray mentioned earlier, does bear spray fall in that category as well?

Kirby

Yep. Bear spray is OC spray. Call your congressmen and tell them to support the current request by some 47 senators for the Secretary of the Interior to snuff the weapons prohibition in National Parks. (It's a regulation by NPS, not an enacted law by Congress).

weary
01-07-2008, 22:29
Snakes and bears are not an issue, ticks on the other hand will bite your bum and give you a case of the Lyme! Check your body daily.
At last, a sensible post. Thanks, Tin Man.

I wish I had a solution for senseless killings on the trail. Unfortunately, I don't. Reason doesn't easily influence someone who would kill for the chance at a $300 ATM fraud.

But those of us that have walked trails over the decades know that the dangers, though real, are 10 times less that the dangers of walking to your mail box to pick up your mail. Or the danger inherent in using a prescription from your family doctor without first researching, as well as you can to make sure your doc isn't about to compound your illness, whatever it may be.

Life is risky. Everyone has a choice. We can live life. Or we can avoid living.

As Henry said, "I went to the woods to live deliberately, to sense the true meaning of life, so when It comes to die, I won't discover that I had never really lived."

Well, he said something like that. I didn't memorize the exact words.

Weary

The Old Fhart
01-07-2008, 22:48
Thoreau also said-"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them."

Tin Man
01-07-2008, 23:04
The following quote from The Lost World: Jurassic Park, the 1997 cheesy dinosaur movie sticks with me:

Roland (Great White Hunter): "Remember that chap about twenty years ago? I forget his name. Climbed Everest without any oxygen, came down nearly dead. When they asked him, they said why did you go up there to die? He said I didn't, I went up there to live."

4eyedbuzzard
01-07-2008, 23:07
Other HDT memorables:

"As if you could kill time without injuring eternity."

and

"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it."

Kirby
01-07-2008, 23:17
No more than ever I am worried about my personal safety.

Kirby

Just a Hiker
01-07-2008, 23:24
No more than ever I am worried about my personal safety.

Kirby

Don't let this tragedy get you spooked Kirby. You are starting your thru-hike at a time (3/1) when there will be alot of people out there. Just follow common sense and if someone gives you a bad feeling.......pack your trash and move on.


Just Jim

4eyedbuzzard
01-07-2008, 23:38
But those of us that have walked trails over the decades know that the dangers, though real, are 10 times less that the dangers of walking to your mail box to pick up your mail.

With this thaw and refreeze, walking down my driveway to get the mail is more dangerous than the Kumbu ice fall (http://www.pbase.com/angusmac/image/44076974).:eek:

weary
01-07-2008, 23:42
No(w?) more than ever I am worried about my personal safety.Kirby
With or without bear spray, or guns, 4 million people a year walk on the trail. All but three or four survived. As near as I can tell, no guns were fired in defense. No bear spray annoyed any bear.

Weary

Kirby
01-07-2008, 23:44
Don't let this tragedy get you spooked Kirby. You are starting your thru-hike at a time (3/1) when there will be alot of people out there. Just follow common sense and if someone gives you a bad feeling.......pack your trash and move on.


Just Jim

It was really a double wammy. Her body was sadly found today, and I also just read Birdleg's journal from 2007, and then gave me a wake up call as well. Will I cancel my thru? No. Will I pay much closer attention to my safety? Yes.

Now, here's my question. What is the proper way to move on, or turn down a hitch? I am still having trouble figuring out how to do this in a way that will not have a spooky person following me on trail. I suppose this is something I should address at this time.

Kirby

4eyedbuzzard
01-07-2008, 23:45
No more than ever I am worried about my personal safety.

Kirby

Everyone right now is more worried about their personal safety, but the risk hasn't honestly changed. It's the same as it was before, and if anything even a little less, given that more people will be looking out for each other for a while. It's just your perception of the risk that has changed.

tazie
01-07-2008, 23:47
No more than ever I am worried about my personal safety.

Kirby

Kirby, I think you are more than well-prepared and very knowledgable about the trail...don't let worries or anxiety distract you from a worthy goal. I'm not your mom, but I do have a 17-yr old son (we've been reading your journal!) and we admire your spunk and spirit and envy you this journey...Know that there will be lots of us out here checking in on you and keeping you in thoughts and prayers.
Now as a mom, no fret, hit the sack and get a good night's sleep for school tomorrow. :)

Just a Hiker
01-07-2008, 23:50
It was really a double wammy. Her body was sadly found today, and I also just read Birdleg's journal from 2007, and then gave me a wake up call as well. Will I cancel my thru? No. Will I pay much closer attention to my safety? Yes.

Now, here's my question. What is the proper way to move on, or turn down a hitch? I am still having trouble figuring out how to do this in a way that will not have a spooky person following me on trail. I suppose this is something I should address at this time.

Kirby


Just to put you at ease.......hitching along the AT is pretty safe! 7 times out 10 a little old lady will pick you up, but if someone looks shady just tell them you are waiting on someone. As far as anyone else, tell them you are with a group and they are right behind you or ahead of you, and then move on. You'll be okay......just don't let this get you worried because you'll have plenty of company out there!!!:)


Just Jim

Kirby
01-07-2008, 23:54
Just to put you at ease.......hitching along the AT is pretty safe! 7 times out 10 a little old lady will pick you up, but if someone looks shady just tell them you are waiting on someone. As far as anyone else, tell them you are with a group and they are right behind you or ahead of you, and then move on. You'll be okay......just don't let this get you worried because you'll have plenty of company out there!!!:)


Just Jim

Thanks. It was just odd how everything fell at once to give me this really low feeling in my gut. Does anyone happen to know if Granite(referencing Birdleg's journal, second to last entry) was ever caught?

I have .01% intention of hitching by myself, I am 16, that would not be a smart thing to do.

Kirby

Tin Man
01-08-2008, 00:13
This discussion reminds me of a time in my early 20's where I was driving home late one night and passed a car slowly crawling down a residential street. Well, as soon as I passed the car, I turned into my apartment complex and the car followed me and parked behind me. Two big burly guys got out, one holding a short bat, and the other spitting venom that I had wronged him someway. Being tall and thin and a little scared and knowing I better not show him I was scared, I looked him in the eye and said something to the effect that I was tired and just wanted to get home and that I am sorry he was offended that I passed him. Well bat guy started swinging the bat and said, "what did you say? Don't look him in the eye! Look down!" So, I looked down and simply stated that I was tired and I was sorry. Tough guy said, "you better be sorry and don't pass me again". I said "OK, I will not pass you again." After they left, two guys from the complex came over, one holding a gun, said they were ready to "do them" if it went any further. I wasn't sure who I was more concerned about the guys in the car with the bat or the guys with the gun who lived in the complex. I moved to a better section of town shortly after.

briarpatch
01-08-2008, 00:39
Kirk McQuest said: " (snip). . .; A few years ago a killer was stalking parking lots ( i think in virginia), he was shooting people from inside his car trunk. Funny I didn't hear anyone speaking reluctantly about going to home depot ( it sure didn't hurt their sales). (snip) . . . "

I was working in Herndon, Virginia at the time, and the sniper did have an impact on people's behavior and businesses. Some gas stations put up tarps shielding their pumping areas from view, resturants were not nearly as busy at night as usual, and local people were talking about being nervous when they were shopping, etc.

I stayed 3-4 nights per week for 8 months in a hotel near Dulles and the hotel resturant went from never full before the sniper incidents started to full most weeknights, with people eating there instead of going out.

Mr.Owl
01-08-2008, 01:12
I have patiently been reading and wow - this is such a heated discussion! I have hiked for over 20 years now, and have done many trips up to 15 days long, some much more remote than the AT. I am planning to thru-hike SOBO with my wife starting this June. Obviously, we are all touched by this tragedy; clearly it has gotten us all thinking.

From an outsider to the AT (minus some sections in the Shen (VA)), I find this forum rather contradictory (and interesting). EVERYONE says "oh, hike your own hike," and "don't you let others tell you how to do your trip..." and now everyone here just spend 10 PAGES doing just that - telling everyone else what to do and why they should or shouldn't carry and saying things like "it's OK to Carry pot but not guns." Sorry but I think that's just bizarre.

YES, guns are illegal on parts of the trail. And YES, herb is illegal on the trail. But the reality is that despite our posts, some of us will carry pepper spray, or guns, or weed, or whole rolls of duct tape, or rocks, or flamingos and weird crap, or all of that stuff.

I guess what is important is we should all look out for each other out there, enjoy the hike, and respect each other enough to accept that we will approach this differently and hike 'our own hike.'

Bottom line is (as far as I can see it), that carrying ANY controlled item mentioned is a risk, and a huge responsibility too. But it's a responsibility for the person carrying it.

I really can't wait for my through hike to begin, and I can't wait to see you out there. I just hope you all practice what you preach, be respectful (we are all doing this together after all) and let's 'hike our own hikes' together and have a damned good time while doing it.

And, my thoughts and prayers go out to everyone touched by this tragedy. Admittedly, it's all of us I guess.

4eyedbuzzard
01-08-2008, 01:16
I agree.:)

Tin Man
01-08-2008, 01:34
....

YES, guns are illegal on parts of the trail. And YES, herb is illegal on the trail. But the reality is that despite our posts, some of us will carry pepper spray, or guns, or weed, or whole rolls of duct tape, or rocks, or flamingos and weird crap, or all of that stuff.

...

I agree that people should practice HYOH respect for one another, but I take exception to people carrying flamingos, unless it is properly dressed, stuffed and basted for roasting over a campfire.

Sorry. :D Good post btw.

Jim Adams
01-08-2008, 04:28
the most dangerous situation that you put yourself in while hiking is the drive to and from the hiking area.
the chance of someone doing you harm on the trail is very slim.
i realize that alot of the concerns and discussions have occurred due to the unfortunate events this past week and i feel just as saddened as you all do but comparing some thoughts on todays treads, i find it interesting that carrying a firearm is now acceptable, that although a .22 will be sufficient, a .45 is needed for true knockdown power but trail magic should not be tolerated.

geek

Lone Wolf
01-08-2008, 05:18
carrying a firearm is now acceptable, that although a .22 will be sufficient, a .45 is needed for true knockdown power but trail magic should not be tolerated.

geek

correct

River Runner
01-08-2008, 05:43
Umm, no, I'd say Spastic made a good point, but unfortunately it went over your head. :rolleyes:

I'm not that worried about WB vigilantes, tho. I suspect most WBers don't get that close to the actual AT, at least not very often. Too scary!

Umm, no, I don't think it went over my head.

Maybe my point went over your head.

I'll still stick with the original idea that taking a few pictures could be useful - not only in the event someone comes up missing, but also in the event I come back and find a great big old dent in my car. Or if it has been broken into there might be witnesses.

As posted previously, it is perfectly legal to take pictures in public places without the approval or permission of someone else.

Spastic
01-08-2008, 06:08
It's also legal to take pictures of teenagers at the mall, but that doesn't make it any less creepy.

Firearmz
01-08-2008, 08:24
Typical knee-jerk reaction to a senseless crime on our turf. For the safety sake of all hikers, please leave the guns at home. Accidents can be just as deadly as senseless crimes. So can being stupd.

Guns are as safe as hiking. Darwinism and crimminals are the problem with guns and attitudes like the one above. Each year millions of Americans use and save themselves as well as loved ones with a firearm. I will admit that if you are going to carry a gun you need to get some training.

Personal protection is YOUR responsibility, not the government, not the police, not your neighbor, YOURS! Cameras or 911, may all help catch the bad guy but it won't stop them. First, situational awareness is imperative, you must know what is going on around you, second face the fact that it can happen to you and have a realistic outlook on what to do. You must have a mindset to fight and win, with a stick, knife, or gun the most important weapon you have available if your brain, it drives everything you may possess in your hands.

Carrying a gun or not to, is a personal choice, some are sheep and some are sheep dogs, some are eaten and some drive the wolf away.

rafe
01-08-2008, 08:28
When did WhiteBlaze turn into talk.politics.guns? Just wonderin... Take your Kleck and Lott and go...

BigStu
01-08-2008, 08:41
Snakes and bears are not an issue, ticks on the other hand will bite your bum and give you a case of the Lyme! Check your body daily.

Thanks Tin Man.. ticks were one of my first subjects for a bit of homework and I have already been advised that some of the info on the ALDF website regarding tick risk in Virginia (http://www.aldf.com/RiskMap/virginia/virginia.shtml) is perhaps a little optimistic.

Regarding removal I am going to put a Tick Twister (http://www.ticktwister.com/index.html) in my pack as this seems a great deal easier than tweezers.

I may need to undertake a course in yoga before I come over so that I can reach the parts that even a best friend may prefer not to go :D

The Old Fhart
01-08-2008, 10:07
Firearmz-"Each year millions of Americans use and save themselves as well as loved ones with a firearm."Are you sure you don't mean billions?:rolleyes:

weary
01-08-2008, 11:27
....Each year millions of Americans use and save themselves as well as loved ones with a firearm. .....
I'll need some documentation before I believe that claim. Millions certainly use and have guns. Including me. But the only thing I've saved by using a gun is some meat that is stored in my freezer.

I suspect the same is true for most gun owners. Most of us keep our weapons unloaded and in a locked cabinet for safety. Some that don't end up with a dead child or a dead neighbor's child.

Sadly, a few trigger happy folks also end up killing innocent people, like the Dad who shot his son to death because it was dark and he was worried about intruders.

Weary

Jim Adams
01-08-2008, 12:33
I have guns for hunting and I have guns for self protection (.45ACP) but none of them belong on the trail...useless weight. Use your brain instead.

geek

Lone Wolf
01-08-2008, 12:39
I have guns for hunting and I have guns for self protection (.45ACP) but none of them belong on the trail...useless weight. Use your brain instead.

geek

your opinion. my choice to carry or not

RockyBob
01-08-2008, 12:46
your opinion. my choice to carry or not

I agree

Tin Man
01-08-2008, 12:48
Thanks Tin Man.. ticks were one of my first subjects for a bit of homework and I have already been advised that some of the info on the ALDF website regarding tick risk in Virginia (http://www.aldf.com/RiskMap/virginia/virginia.shtml) is perhaps a little optimistic.

Regarding removal I am going to put a Tick Twister (http://www.ticktwister.com/index.html) in my pack as this seems a great deal easier than tweezers.

I may need to undertake a course in yoga before I come over so that I can reach the parts that even a best friend may prefer not to go :D

I wouldn't go to too much trouble here. Ticks are not too much of an issue and they take 2 days to dig in far enough where you would need a tick twister and before they can unleash their cooties.

Sly
01-08-2008, 12:55
When did WhiteBlaze turn into talk.politics.guns? Just wonderin... Take your Kleck and Lott and go...

It's a wide open forum. You should be able to find something to read that's more to your liking. Try hammocks.

weary
01-08-2008, 12:56
I wouldn't go to too much trouble here. Ticks are not too much of an issue and they take 2 days to dig in far enough where you would need a tick twister and before they can unleash their cooties.
Whatever you do. Don't try to shoot a tick with anything larger than a .22. Way too much collateral damage.

Captn
01-08-2008, 13:01
I agree that people should practice HYOH respect for one another, but I take exception to people carrying flamingos, unless it is properly dressed, stuffed and basted for roasting over a campfire.

Sorry. :D Good post btw.

I don't know .... Trained attack flamingos may be just the ticket.

envirodiver
01-08-2008, 13:04
I along with many on here hike solo much of the time and as many have said the best defense is paying attention. I've met many nice people on trails and some creepy ones. However, regardless of how someone comes across I answer the question of where I'm going or camping with: down the trail a ways. Tell people that I don't know: nothing that could be information that would allow them to find me later. Stay back far enough that they can't grab me and don't put myself in a position of being surrounded. Move on with have a nice day.

However, I do carry pepper spray...tough I'll take my chances with getting busted for it. When I have a female with me I'm extra vigilant to people that I meet.

If folks want to carry guns...do so...please get trained and don't be so scared that you shoot innocent people. If you're that scared you're probably miserable in the woods anyway.

But, and I'm adamant about this...nobody and I mean nobody can make me leave my flamingo at home.

CoyoteWhips
01-08-2008, 13:05
I don't know .... Trained attack flamingos may be just the ticket.

I often think it would be nice to have some sort of trained sparrow that flew around my head eating mosquitoes.

Maybe a posse of dragon flies.

Captn
01-08-2008, 13:12
your opinion. my choice to carry or not

Amen .......

4eyedbuzzard
01-08-2008, 13:14
But, and I'm adamant about this...nobody and I mean nobody can make me leave my flamingo at home.

Image of Charlton Heston raising a pink flamingo overhead and issuing warning, "From my cold, dead hands":D

Captn
01-08-2008, 13:15
Umm, no, I don't think it went over my head.

Maybe my point went over your head.

I'll still stick with the original idea that taking a few pictures could be useful - not only in the event someone comes up missing, but also in the event I come back and find a great big old dent in my car. Or if it has been broken into there might be witnesses.

As posted previously, it is perfectly legal to take pictures in public places without the approval or permission of someone else.


Yes sir ..... and I've had my car hit on several occasions at trailheads .... so far ... no one bothered to leave a note or take responsibility.

BigStu
01-08-2008, 13:20
I wouldn't go to too much trouble here. Ticks are not too much of an issue and they take 2 days to dig in far enough where you would need a tick twister and before they can unleash their cooties.

Trouble is.. my hike will be four days so that gives the little buggers time to dig in if they are so inclined.

I know, I'll sneakily get a .22 and send the sods to meet their maker that way... on the other hand, that may come under the heading of overkill :rolleyes:

Captn
01-08-2008, 13:23
It's also legal to take pictures of teenagers at the mall, but that doesn't make it any less creepy.

And you Honestly want to equate taking a picture of a license plate and Pedophilia?

Have you no shame?

Captn
01-08-2008, 13:23
Trouble is.. my hike will be four days so that gives the little buggers time to dig in if they are so inclined.

I know, I'll sneakily get a .22 and send the sods to meet their maker that way... on the other hand, that may come under the heading of overkill :rolleyes:

I hear that flamingos love ticks .....

BigStu
01-08-2008, 13:26
I hear that flamingos love ticks .....

On the one hand that sounds like a solution but have you seen the size of their beaks :eek: ?

What I need to do is compare the muzzle velocity of a .22 to the possibility of a muzzle for a flamingo.

The Old Fhart
01-08-2008, 13:28
Tin Man-"I agree that people should practice HYOH respect for one another, but I take exception to people carrying flamingos, unless it is properly dressed, stuffed and basted for roasting over a campfire."The people of Northfield, NH, would take exception to any mistreatment of Pink Flamingos. Check out this link (http://www.allroutes.to/northfield/spaw/) that has the background on S.P.AW. and it's continuing efforts to protect New Hampshire's favorite bird. Note that Flaminguins are also protected in Northfield. Scroll down to see photos of the big Flamingo Parade.

BigStu
01-08-2008, 13:32
The people of Northfield, NH, would take exception to any mistreatment of Pink Flamingos. Check out this link (http://www.allroutes.to/northfield/spaw/) that has the background on S.P.AW. and it's continuing efforts to protect New Hampshire's favorite bird. Note that Flaminguins are also protected in Northfield. Scroll down to see photos of the big Flamingo Parade.

It has to be said that taking a flamingo away from these people, if only to nibble the ticks off my butt, would be a considerable kindness .

River Runner
01-08-2008, 13:35
And you Honestly want to equate taking a picture of a license plate and Pedophilia?

Have you no shame?

Well said.

The Old Fhart
01-08-2008, 13:35
BigStu-"It has to be said that taking a flamingo away from these people, if only to nibble the ticks off my butt, would be a considerable kindness ."I could happily have lived my whole life without that visual!:eek:

Tin Man
01-08-2008, 13:54
The people of Northfield, NH, would take exception to any mistreatment of Pink Flamingos. Check out this link (http://www.allroutes.to/northfield/spaw/) that has the background on S.P.AW. and it's continuing efforts to protect New Hampshire's favorite bird. Note that Flaminguins are also protected in Northfield. Scroll down to see photos of the big Flamingo Parade.

When is the next Flamingo Parade? Is it like the Hiker Parade at Trail Daze? In other words, do the Flamingos wear costumes and parade drunk?

tazie
01-08-2008, 14:32
[quote=envirodiver;495870]I along with many on here hike solo much of the time and as many have said the best defense is paying attention.
However, I do carry pepper spray...tough I'll take my chances with getting busted for it. When I have a female with me I'm extra vigilant to people that I meet.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but where do you buy pepper spray? Is it a controlled substance or can you purchase it over the counter? Is it effective? I wouldn't mind carrying some with me on the trail now. Thanks.

Lone Wolf
01-08-2008, 14:35
[quote=envirodiver;495870]I along with many on here hike solo much of the time and as many have said the best defense is paying attention.
However, I do carry pepper spray...tough I'll take my chances with getting busted for it. When I have a female with me I'm extra vigilant to people that I meet.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but where do you buy pepper spray? Is it a controlled substance or can you purchase it over the counter? Is it effective? I wouldn't mind carrying some with me on the trail now. Thanks.

www.defendingwomen.com

tazie
01-08-2008, 15:24
[quote=tazie;496005]

www.defendingwomen.com (http://www.defendingwomen.com)


Thanks LW! Very nice! :)

envirodiver
01-08-2008, 15:58
Tazie it's not a controlled substance, but there are laws prohibitting it in New York and Mass. However, interesting enough all 48 states in the contiguous United States allow the very same pepper spray if it is for bear or dogs. So I guess if you are going to carry it in those states it should be labeled dog spray.

Not sure about the National Park regulations. Someone posted on here earlier that it was banned in those.

Tin Man
01-08-2008, 16:15
Not sure about the National Park regulations. Someone posted on here earlier that it was banned in those.

If you don't spray a NPS official, you probably will not get caught carrying pepper spray.

ncmtns
01-08-2008, 17:17
http://www.amazon.com/Trail-Safe-Averting-Threatening-Appalachian/dp/0899972640

Captn
01-08-2008, 18:44
http://www.amazon.com/Trail-Safe-Averting-Threatening-Appalachian/dp/0899972640

Either that one .... or else this may become required reading for AT thru-hikers!

http://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Pistol-Marksmanship-Improve-Shooting/dp/1581602782/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1

Nearly Normal
01-08-2008, 20:47
That being said, what would be your perception if you rolled into a shelter one afternoon and saw me there with my pistol visible dangling from my left shoulder under my arm? Would you be offended or would you be scared and move on? Or would you ask me why I was carrying? Or would you rather not know I had my pistol, that I had it under my pants on my ankle or something? Just wondering.

I would be very surprised.
Most AT hikers don't carry or at least where you would notice. I would think you are a nut, a showoff, or something worse.
Hiking is what it is. Guns "dangling" isn't what you expect when hiking.
Rounding a corner on the trail and seeing a hunter wouldn't bother me but seeing your example would.

I would not think of it at all at a firing range.
I shoot skeet weekly at a club where everyone there has a shotgun. Don't think anything of it.

I suggest you dangle at every shelter you come to and see how long you keep that piece. Everyone on the trail would soon know about you.
I expect a deputy would have some real interesting questions for you at the first cross roads.

Nearly Normal
01-08-2008, 21:13
your opinion. my choice to carry or not

Absolutely.

Actuary
01-08-2008, 21:29
I would be very surprised.
Most AT hikers don't carry or at least where you would notice. I would think you are a nut, a showoff, or something worse.
Hiking is what it is. Guns "dangling" isn't what you expect when hiking.
Rounding a corner on the trail and seeing a hunter wouldn't bother me but seeing your example would.

I would not think of it at all at a firing range.
I shoot skeet weekly at a club where everyone there has a shotgun. Don't think anything of it.

I suggest you dangle at every shelter you come to and see how long you keep that piece. Everyone on the trail would soon know about you.
I expect a deputy would have some real interesting questions for you at the first cross roads.

ITA. I would not want to be around any guy on the trail with a pistol strapped visibly to his body. I also believe word would spread and everyone would soon know about you and you'd be "That guy" that no one really likes.

Actuary
01-08-2008, 21:36
neither are the ones carrying dope and there's lots of hikers carrying that. i'll take my chances with a legally owned handgun

That's a brilliant retort.

SGT Rock
01-08-2008, 21:40
Well if one were to decide to carry a pistol on the trail. I would recommend that they first take a concealed carry class of some sort so they know what they need to about a great many things that come with carrying a gun. Most of these classes will also cover the things that will happen if you get caught illegally carrying in places and what will happen if you shoot someone even if it could be considered a legitimate shoot.

Then they need to make sure they never, ever let the weapon off of their person. Leaving it outside in a pack or at a shelter while they go get water is a bad idea.

Finally, they should be prudent and never tell anyone or show anyone the gun until they are certain it is time to use it.

4eyedbuzzard
01-08-2008, 21:45
If you don't spray a NPS official, you probably will not get caught carrying pepper spray.

If you don't shoot a NPS official, you probably will not get caught carrying a handgun either.;)

That said, both guns and OC (pepper spray) are classified as weapons under 36 CFR 1.4 and prohibited on NPS lands under 36 CFR 2.4

Tin Man
01-08-2008, 22:18
If you don't shoot a NPS official, you probably will not get caught carrying a handgun either.;)

That said, both guns and OC (pepper spray) are classified as weapons under 36 CFR 1.4 and prohibited on NPS lands under 36 CFR 2.4

I was waiting for someone to state the handgun sentence.

But banning pepper spray? How dangerous is pepper spray? I take it that is more than a seasoning.

The Old Fhart
01-08-2008, 23:01
SGT Rock-"Then they need to make sure they never, ever let the weapon off of their person. Leaving it outside in a pack or at a shelter while they go get water is a bad idea."...or ever think of going into a Federal building, Post Office, Walmart, school, library, diner, hostel, etc, etc.

Skidsteer
01-08-2008, 23:16
Whatever you do. Don't try to shoot a tick with anything larger than a .22. Way too much collateral damage.

Now that's funny. :D

Kudos Weary.

88BlueGT
01-08-2008, 23:19
I dont know if it has been mentioned or not in the previous 11 pages but has anyone thought about a taser? Compact and possibly lightweight (never held one personally so couldnt say for sure).

PhoenixGSU
01-09-2008, 00:16
I dont know if it has been mentioned or not in the previous 11 pages but has anyone thought about a taser? Compact and possibly lightweight (never held one personally so couldnt say for sure).

People would cry and moan over that too.

take-a-knee
01-09-2008, 00:17
I dont know if it has been mentioned or not in the previous 11 pages but has anyone thought about a taser? Compact and possibly lightweight (never held one personally so couldnt say for sure).

Yes, it's been mentioned. My reply was to get a sharp hatchet instead, you don't have to reload it.

Tin Man
01-09-2008, 00:39
...or ever think of going into a Federal building, Post Office, Walmart, school, library, diner, hostel, etc, etc.

Why? Have they disarmed postal works?

gaga
01-09-2008, 00:47
well i say it again -trust your gut- when you hike and you think that someone follows you stop and get defensive: stop and take of your pack, look for rocks, sticks ,branches, put your poles close and handy , if you have a knife, pepper spray,hatchet, gun...have it handy not in the bottom of your pack,if you see and realize that you`r gonna be attacked: kick, cut,spray, shot first. the only down side to this advice is that if you gonna be attacked when you sleep: quoting Homer J. Simpson : " Don't let Krusty's death get you down, boy. People die all the time, just like that. Why, you could wake up dead tomorrow! Well, good night!"

Tipi Walter
01-09-2008, 09:52
Where are the ultralight fanatics on this one? If I shared my gear list here on WhiteBlaze they'd be all over me about the heavy tent I carry and the big thermarest, so why aren't they harping about the needless excess weight of a handgun??

SGT Rock
01-09-2008, 09:53
I just did.

take-a-knee
01-09-2008, 09:58
Where are the ultralight fanatics on this one? If I shared my gear list here on WhiteBlaze they'd be all over me about the heavy tent I carry and the big thermarest, so why aren't they harping about the needless excess weight of a handgun??

I guess the operative word there would be "needless" Walter. It is up to each individual to decide what he or, most especially, she, requires. A 6'2" ex SEAL/jujitsu badass probably doesn't need one. A twenty something 120# female on a day hike at a popular area...well, you tell me Walter.

4eyedbuzzard
01-09-2008, 10:06
Where are the ultralight fanatics on this one?...

Several polymer framed handguns with hollow point rounds totaling under 1 lb have been suggested. Kinda fills both the ultralight and fanatic categories. :rolleyes: :D

JAK
01-09-2008, 10:15
[QUOTE=tazie;496005]

www.defendingwomen.comhttp://www.defendingwomen.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=273&zenid=727e0667a086d246d8fcb8dd94bb35e1

I especially like the flashlight. I'm not sure the muzzle velocity of 270mph and range of 21 feet would be quite enough for jacking would be assailants, but night time action is definitely the way to go. Men shouldn't be out alone at night anyways. ;)

Tipi Walter
01-09-2008, 10:29
If people loved their backpacks and tents as much as they loved their guns, there'd be some danged in-depth conversations here on WhiteBlaze that I would find pertinent to camping and backpacking. Personal safety is one thing, the loving attention to every aspect of guns and gun ownership seems misplaced on a website devoted to backpacking. If we had 5 threads with hundreds of posts devoted to cars and the racing of cars, building engines, the best transmissions, etc, Whiteblazers would wonder what the heck's going on and how it all fits into hiking and camping. Nobody chimes in with a thread, "What type of souped up vehicle do you use to drive to the trailhead?" And then followed by hundreds of car-loving posts.

But since the isolated incident of the Meredith tragedy, many people here have jumped into the whole security-on-the-trail topic, what weapon to carry, who's to blame, are women more vulnerable, how to holster a handgun, live-fire exercises, even the use of a suitcase nuclear weapon said in tired jest and tired sarcasm.

Here's my theory: That the longer a person spends outdoors backpacking and camping, the less likelihood that person will be carrying a gun. Like someone else mentioned, show me someone walking the whole AT with a gun. Has anyone ever done it? And when you read accounts of hard-core backpackers and long-term trail walkers like Brian Robinson or Squeaky or Colin Fletcher, why don't they mention carrying a firearm? I know Fletcher was in the Royal Marines during WWII, just can't remember him ever mentioning carrying a weapon while out on his many backpacking trips.

warraghiyagey
01-09-2008, 10:31
Well said TW.:)

rafe
01-09-2008, 10:32
Good rant and well said, Tipi. :)

Lone Wolf
01-09-2008, 10:33
most don't brag about carry illegal drugs for 2100 miles. same goes for someone carrying a gun

Tin Man
01-09-2008, 10:39
Yes, well said Tipi. It is natural for people to pause and think after a tragedy on the trail, but that does not change the relative safety of hiking versus other activities. While we all mourn the loss of a fellow hiker, we should also think about what her response would be if she could speak to us now. I think she might advise us not to live in fear. I know I would.