View Full Version : Hanging food bags
insider2185
01-14-2008, 17:58
This may be a stupid question, but do you have to worry about hanging your food in a bear bag in all states along the AT?
I have had numerous bear encounters in GA, so I hang my food.
I have friends that use their food bag for a pillow and they have never seen a bear...what's up with that?
All states along the AT have a bear population. Also racoons, skunks and every other critter would like to feed on what you bring to eat.
Better safe than sorry.:-?
Appalachian Tater
01-14-2008, 18:14
No, sometimes there are bear cables, poles, or boxes provided.
Lone Wolf
01-14-2008, 18:15
This may be a stupid question, but do you have to worry about hanging your food in a bear bag in all states along the AT?
i don't worry. i never hang food in any state but you do what you feel you need to do.
mountain squid
01-14-2008, 18:17
Some will say yes, some will say no...if staying at/near a shelter, I'll use the mouse hangars. If tenting away from shelter, I'll probably put it in a tree (better safe than sorry...) Incidentally, NJ shelters have metal boxes.
At any rate, a sil-nylon stuff sack is sufficient for food. Also, be sure to place 'all' aromatic items within your food bag (incl tooth paste, soap, etc) prior to hanging. Double check all pockets for that stray candy bar, if you don't a mouse will find it and probably leave a nice, new hole where the candy used to be:eek:.
See you on the trail,
mt squid
River Runner
01-14-2008, 18:17
This may be a stupid question, but do you have to worry about hanging your food in a bear bag in all states along the AT?
Only if you don't want to worry about having nightime visitors to your food ranging from mice to bears. 'Course I hear the mice can sometimes get to the food even if it is properly bear-bagged.
From experience, I would say definitely learn how to do a proper bear bag hang. It certainly gave us peace of mind a couple of times this fall when we heard bears in our camp snooping around to know that they would not be looking in our tent for food. :)
It was also nice to still have our food the next morning. :D
The only people I've seen that lost thier food were those who bear bagged.:-?:eek:
If you stay in shelters I'd mouse bag my food though!;):)
Jack Tarlin
01-14-2008, 18:59
I hang food in the Smokies; Shenandoah National Park; and New Jersey, and have never had a problem anywhere else.
I hang the food because I feel I should be the one to enjoy my food, not the bear.
One time while tent camping on the beach of Grand Island I woke up to find bear footprints in the sand. It walked by the tent (10-feet away) sometime in the night. I was glad I used the bear poles they provided.
Jack Tarlin
01-14-2008, 19:50
Actually, I should stress that in many places, it's probably a really good idea to hang your food.
My partner Mountain Dew left his pack unattended briefly in Shenandoah in order to go get an ice cream and call his Mom.
What a bear did to his tent, gear, and foodbag in the interim was a sight to see. In fact, what the Vandals did to Rome in the year 455 A.D. suffers in comparison.
Pretty funny in retrospect, but Dew was not a happy camper.
Plus I had to feed him.
AT-HITMAN2005
01-14-2008, 19:52
first night out at springer mountain shelter. used the bear cables provided. had a hole the next day in my food anyways. could have been that there were like 20 bags hanging so provided a large areas for critters to land. either way my GORP was toast.
that being said, if at a shelter i use the mouse hangers things. if tenting i'll hang from a tree. if its raining i don't worry too much about it.
Bulldawg
01-14-2008, 20:06
I've got a question along these lines. I can see where picking a limb that would not support a bear and hanging your food might keep away the bears. But I know here at home we have squirrels that will shimmy down the rope to a bird feeder and rape the feeder. What do you folks do to keep this from happening to your food bag? How do you keep out those pesky squirrels.
On a related note we were car camping in a state park one time and had our food in one of those rubbermaid boxes. You know, one of those that the lid snaps on. I assumed it was safe (no bears in this area). Those darned squirrels chewed the entire lid rim off the box all the way around, took the lid all the way off, and ate everything in the box while we were away hiking (2 hours). I know it was squirrels because they jumped out of the box at me when we got back.:D:D
scout005
01-14-2008, 20:09
Okay, a bear's not going to come near a food bag that's hanging on a mouse hook in a shelter? Sounds like easy pickings to me. I could be wrong.
Jack Tarlin
01-14-2008, 20:14
Actually, bears very rarely come near occupied shelters, except in places where they've gotten bold, or been accustomed to getting fed (The National Parks, New Jersey).
And if you're camped with someone who has a dog, forget about it.
In over 20,000 miles, I cannot recall ever witnessing or hearing about a bear going after food in an occupied shelter outside of these areas.
The only creature that's gonna go to town eating hiker food that was left hanging on a mouse hook is a mouse.
Blissful
01-14-2008, 20:21
I always played it safe and hung my food. If not for bears then for mice and the nasty red squirrels in the great North.
Actually, I should stress that in many places, it's probably a really good idea to hang your food.
My partner Mountain Dew left his pack unattended briefly in Shenandoah in order to go get an ice cream and call his Mom.
What a bear did to his tent, gear, and foodbag in the interim was a sight to see. In fact, what the Vandals did to Rome in the year 455 A.D. suffers in comparison.
Pretty funny in retrospect, but Dew was not a happy camper.
Plus I had to feed him.
You know a lot of things that happen to me are funny later, but they sure were not funny at the time. My friends thought they were funny at the time, but not me…
This may be a stupid question, but do you have to worry about hanging your food in a bear bag in all states along the AT?
I don't worry about it much, I just do it. Some places have bear boxes (eg. some shelters in NJ) and in SNP they have "bear poles" to make it easier.
turtle fast
01-14-2008, 22:10
I had used bear cables in the Smokeys and I had mice climb the bear cables down the line and had a banquet by nibbling at a variety of food and defficating in them!!! I lost HALF my food to nibbling/poop luckily they did not go after my prepackaged freeze dried stuff...interestingly was my other half of the food.
turtle fast
01-14-2008, 22:12
Does anyone use bear canisters on the AT....though heavy I am beginning to see the convienance of having them. Can keeep them down and away and easier access.... more secure? Any thoughts?
Lone Wolf
01-14-2008, 22:14
no need for cannisters
AT-HITMAN2005
01-14-2008, 22:14
I've got a question along these lines. I can see where picking a limb that would not support a bear and hanging your food might keep away the bears. But I know here at home we have squirrels that will shimmy down the rope to a bird feeder and rape the feeder. What do you folks do to keep this from happening to your food bag? How do you keep out those pesky squirrels.
i don't know about anyone else but my bear line is only like 1/16th or so thick. i got it from the local outfitter here. its some sort of climbing rope, really strong and skinny. don't think a squirrel could manage to climb down it.
AT-HITMAN2005
01-14-2008, 22:16
in '05 there was a hiker named bearcan, because she carried one. not sure when but she eventually became known as bearcan-less because she got rid of it.
i don't know about anyone else but my bear line is only like 1/16th or so thick. i got it from the local outfitter here. its some sort of climbing rope, really strong and skinny. don't think a squirrel could manage to climb down it.
We had our bird feeder hanging on a straightened wire hanger. The squirrel would get on the branch above it, grasp the wire as best he could, and just sort or kamikaze dive until he smashed into the bird feeder while still holding onto the wire. He'd just hang on real tight and scramble around to where he could get a better grip...and end up getting the food. Then when we put a funnel above the feeder he hit that at high speed trying to slide down the wire and went straight to the ground. After that, he climbed the trunk of the tree about 8 feet away from the feeder, looked over his shoulder at it, and lept hardcore backflip style and got it about 1 out of every 10 tries. DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE SQUIRRELS!!:D
River Runner
01-15-2008, 02:19
I haven't had a problem with squirrels or mice when bear bagging. I'm sure sooner or later I will (probably sooner now that I've written this and jinxed myself).
Last year was apparently a lean year for food sources for bear in many areas. I saw at least one on most trips I took. On one overnight trip we had 1-2 bears exploring around our camp off and on throughout the night, and saw two on the trail during the day. This was in an area where bears are normally never seen.
I remember last summer a boy scout with a candy bar in his pocket was attacked in his tent. I think that was in Pennsylvania. It would make me very leery of sleeping with my food bag hanging near my head on mouse lines in a shelter.
YMMV.
Lone Wolf
01-15-2008, 07:09
I remember last summer a boy scout with a candy bar in his pocket was attacked in his tent. I think that was in Pennsylvania. It would make me very leery of sleeping with my food bag hanging near my head on mouse lines in a shelter.
YMMV.
he wasn't in a tent. it was in NJ and he was hardly "attacked". the bear was pulling on the sleeping bag
what does mileage have to do with bear paranoia? :-?
I always sleep in my tent. I do not go out on the AT to sleep with abunch of snoring hikers. I put my food in a compression sack that is air tight, then I wrap my dirty stinking cloths around the sack and keep it in my tent.
SlowLightTrek
01-15-2008, 10:25
Had a bear in the Smokies that took these peoples water bottle from the log at the firepit when they came into the shelter. Same bear bit my white gas bottle. Another guy had his cooking pot bit through. They had an incident in the Smokies where a bear came into the shelter after the food hanging on the mouse hangers. Some injuries to the hikers occured. I was told by the ridgerunner there. They almost closed the shelter because of it. A leader of this group of hikers got pulled out of a shelter in his sleeping bag because he was using his food bag for a pillow. The bear was shot as a result. That kid on the news this summer was bit on the front pocket of his pants, drug from his tent by a bear. He had to have a candy wrapper or something in his front pocket. Although he denied it. Again another bear had to be destroyed. A bear has a nose 10 times stronger than a bloodhound. He is 3 times bigger than you. His muscle strenth per pound is twice that of yours making him 6 times bigger than you. Better safe than sorry. The rules are made for our protection and for the bears protection. We aren't natural prey to bears but our food is.
The only time I've ever hung my food was when camping with my daughter. I know enough about our bears and myeslf not to be worried about myself. I don't know enough about our bears and small children though. Not enough data. Hope it stays that way. I carry a hatchet, which ain't much but its better than a thumb up the ass. Frankly, I should be more concerned about my driving.
Strategic
01-15-2008, 13:58
I bear bag too, and for most of the same reasons as others here (smaller animals, bears where present and fairly aggressive, etc.) As long as you do it right, there shouldn't be anything that can get to your food, and that's the main thing, really, keeping your food intact. My favorite in this regard is the so-called "PCT method" (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bear_bag_hanging_technique.html), where you hang well out from the trunk of the tree and use a toggle on the line to get the bag well below the branch and avoid tying it to the tree. This is especially useful in areas with large raccoon populations. I have seen 'coons clever enough to untie things and heard stories of them doing so to bear bag lines (and confirmed stories of bears just biting through a line to drop the bag), so it seems the best option for hanging.
When I was in NJ in 2006 I saw four bears in two days but didn't have any problems with them even though I knew they were close by (I saw two on Camp Road and followed them NOBO for almost a mile, then camped just short of Catfish firetower.) You better believe I hung my food and everything else that might smell good to a bear, though. And yes, the NJ shelters all have bear boxes and woe betide those who don't use them because their food will likely not survive the night (even if they likely will.)
Ther is also another option you might consider, one that I'm weighing now. Get an Ursack (http://www.ursack.com/index.html), which is a food bag specifically designed to resist being chewed open by anything. Many people use them without hanging (just strap it to the branch of a near-by tree.) I've seen some very impressive reviews and videos of these things and they certainly look good, so it may be a way to get peace of mind about your food and avoid having to hang in most circumstances.
The best way to keep your food is not leave it unattended. That includes up in a tree. Bears are great climbers and people are poor hangers. I had to move our birdfeeder 3 times this year before it was far enough out on the limb that the bear couldn't get to it. I've only met around a half a dozen hikers who lost their food to a bear and they all had it hung.:-?
envirodiver
01-15-2008, 14:25
I like the PCT method. Never heard of it before, thanks for the link I'll try it next time out.
I'm a bit more lax about hanging food during the winter. I will put it in the tent w/ me during the winter if really cold outside. Bears are in and I think my snoring scares everything else away.
To keep mice and squirels out of my hanging food you can use a disposable aluminum pie pan, poke a hole in the center and slide it up the rope above the bag, bend it a little into a cone shape. Makes it slippery for the little critters.
I always keep food in the tent with me for midnight snacking so I don't see the point of hanging the rest of my food. If there are metal containers maybe I will use them because their presence indicates a bigger problem with local bears. This summer I saw over 15 bears in one week in the shennandoahs. Never hung my food, kept everything inside the tent and while bears came within 20 feet of camp more than once, none came near the tent.
I've also seen people hang their food and lose it. We call 'em bear pinatas.
I do try and keep odors reasonable in check, out of respect for the hungry critters more than anything.
insider2185
01-15-2008, 16:02
Thanks guys for all of your responses. I have camped in bear country in New Mexico, but never in the east. Thank you once again
(I hung my food there)
the_iceman
01-15-2008, 16:12
a few times I bear bagged my food but mostly I kept it with me in my tent or left it on a reliable mouse hook in a shelter. My partner never bagged his food in 2 thru-hikes. That being said you need to use some common sense. They do not put up calbes for the fun of it. In the big parks it is part of the way to train bears that food at shelters is not an easy target. let's not undo those years of training.
Leaving food unprotected and unattended in the woods for more than a few minutes is not a good idea.
The only time a critter has gotten into my food bag is when I hung it from a tree. Twice it happened. Both times the critter went after my hot chocolate. Musta been a female mouse pmsing.... did I say that????
River Runner
01-16-2008, 00:41
he wasn't in a tent. it was in NJ and he was hardly "attacked". the bear was pulling on the sleeping bag
what does mileage have to do with bear paranoia? :-?
Okay L Wolf, after you posted this I googled it and came up with the story. It was PA, the bear did rip down his tent.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21304524/
It does not specify food involved, but I thought I heard that on a later news story he had a candy bar in his pocket? Maybe we are talking about different stories?
I don't have any idea about mileage - don't remember saying anything about that.
Lone Wolf
01-16-2008, 00:44
YMMV.
what's it mean?
River Runner
01-16-2008, 01:43
what's it mean?
Oh - gotcha' Your mileage may vary. In other words, your experience may be different.
But you know all that L Wolf.
You're just pickin' on me for me pickin' on you the other day. Guess I deserved the payback. :D
Even?
Lone Wolf
01-16-2008, 06:53
i really didn't know what it meant. i'm not pickin' on you. i don't remember you pickin' on me.
even? okay i guess. :)
about them bears, it's funny how there's never been a hiker on the AT killed or mauled by one, yet hikers spend a lot of time and energy preparing against an attack. but nobody seems to worry or prepare to be attacked/raped/killed by a human which has happened a lot. go figure
Regarding that boy scout story, that happened at Hickory Run State Park. In the last couple of years, they've had a problem with bears becoming habituated to people-food up there. I've camped at Hickory Run many, many times, and have seen some utterly stupid people-behavior in both the family camping areas and in the group sites. As I walked through the family area two years ago, I saw one of those giant sized jars of peanut butter sitting open in an unattended campsite. I closed up the jar, and about an hour or so later when the campers returned to their site, I went over and had a friendly conversation with them about leaving out food or any smellables. The next day, I saw a very agitated mom loading up her car to leave quickly. She had a wide-eyed, nearly-panic-stricken look on her face. She told me that she didn't understand why a bear ripped up her "food tent", that she was terrified, and would never go camping again. (Which I think was a good decision.) Turns out, she had stored all her food in a separate tent in her campsite. There were dabs of peanut butter in spots on rocks around the campsite. I've seen equally bad camper behavior in the group sites at Hickory Run, as well. In fact, the park website has an updated warning about bear activity and storing food and smellables in cars while camping at Hickory Run.
(Incidentally, Hickory Run has a trail with a very cool name: the Shades of Death trail. It's a good trail, too! When I die, I want to be cremated and have my ashes spread on that trail!)
Strategic
01-17-2008, 12:30
I've also seen people hang their food and lose it. We call 'em bear pinatas.
The answer to your previous post about SNP is; luck. You were lucky that none of those bears happened to be hungry enough when they came by your camp, because if they were they might well have decided that your food was just the thing for a midnight snack too. Luck is what the unprepared depend on, and it eventually fails them. I hope, both for your sake and the bear's, that it does not fail you...but I wouldn't count on it either.
As for those who hang their food and lose it, well, that's an easy answer too; they did it incorrectly. As with any piece of gear or technique, if you do it wrong it's likely to fail. The classic mistake in bear bagging is to hang it too low (thus the "bear pinata" problem) or to leave the tied end of the line out where the bear is likely to either see it or accidentally encounter it and thus break or bite it, dropping the bag. The PCT method properly applied eliminates both these problems, as does the Ursack (where the bear can make a pinata of it all he wants but still isn't getting it open.)
The ursack is good, from what I hear, of keeping the bear out of your food, but that doesn't stop the bear from grabbing it and running down the side of the mountain with it. The outcome is still the same, you've lost your food.
Strategic
01-17-2008, 12:51
The ursack is good, from what I hear, of keeping the bear out of your food, but that doesn't stop the bear from grabbing it and running down the side of the mountain with it. The outcome is still the same, you've lost your food.
Actually, no, the Ursack folks thought of that. The line of the Ursack is as tough as the fabric (both extremely high-strength Spectra in the current models, I believe) and both can resist breakage by a bear. The Ursack site has a video of one of their "test bears" gripping the bottom of a sack in it's teeth and trying to pull it off the tree it's tied to. It can't do it, even with putting it's whole body into yanking on the thing (and it's a 500lb bear too.) Now, tie it to a tree that will break, then you'd have a problem.:D
This may be a stupid question, but do you have to worry about hanging your food in a bear bag in all states along the AT?
yes, why not practice the good practice of doing it.
Lone Wolf
01-17-2008, 12:58
nah. sleep with it.
nah. sleep with it.
yeah, use it for a pillow. Take the stuff that could be crushed and just put it in the corner o your tent
Whatever you do with it, handle your food and what you do with it very responsibly. Especially in country that has heavy bear activity.
homebrew
01-17-2008, 13:33
Smear a little honey on the bag and sleep with it held between your knees.
Strategic
01-17-2008, 13:44
i really didn't know what it meant. i'm not pickin' on you. i don't remember you pickin' on me.
even? okay i guess. :)
about them bears, it's funny how there's never been a hiker on the AT killed or mauled by one, yet hikers spend a lot of time and energy preparing against an attack. but nobody seems to worry or prepare to be attacked/raped/killed by a human which has happened a lot. go figure
Sorry L. Wolf, but you're wrong on this one. While there are no documented fatalities, there have been injurious attacks directly on the AT. I found three just by a quick Google: one in NJ at Mashipacong shelter (http://www.njherald.com/307207592292689.php), a second in DWG here in PA (http://www.backcountry.net/arch/at/9707/msg00325.html), and a third in NC at Roaring Fork shelter (http://www.boston.com/yourlife/specials/blog/2007/04/day_26_bear_att_1.html). The DWG attack was on a non-hiker, but the other two were AT hikers (the first a section hiker, the second a thru-hiker.) The Mashipacong attack was certainly the worst, though the injuries are unspecified in the reports because the NJ authorities refused to release the info (it's apparently policy not to give these details.) The hiker was dragged in his bag from the shelter not just by the bag but by the leg. I don't know about anyone else, but that's not my idea of a successful hike.
And of course, this ignores the hikers elsewhere near the trail that have been attacked as well (including the attacks mentioned earlier here in PA at Hickory Run Park in the Poconos.) Just because bear attacks are relatively rare compared to human attacks is no reason not to do what's prudent to prevent them.
Lone Wolf
01-17-2008, 13:45
guess i'll start packing
dessertrat
01-17-2008, 13:47
The only reason the bears don't attack the hikers more often is because the bears know that the hikers are PREPARED!
Once we start acting like pantywaists and stop carrying guns and pepper spray, the bears will attack more often.
That attack in Hickory Run remember was brought on by the candy the kid had in his tent AND likely smeared somewhere else. Either way, The whole area of the Pocono's with everybody have 2nd houses there and living there in increasing numbers hasnt made the situation any better.
Closing habitaits, people (FUP) feeding the bears like they fill their bird feeder, tolerating bears where they really shouldnt be (in around resturants) . All this, and who hasnt heard this already...give the bear an association with people with food.
Since I am on the subject. Anyone heard of the bear killing outside of a place called High Elevations early this past fall. This bear had been in and around the place for years. Now I can understand (I dont approve of it, but I can see why) someone wanting to kill the bear, maybe it spooked them one time or ..whatever.
It was found one morning in the back of the parking lot killed with a crossbow arrow. 613 pounds of bear, later I talked with the restruant bartender and she said that it was reported as 613 but the warden said it had to go close to 800. (which I find very unusual but again whatever).
Whoever shot this animal just left it.
weird
The only reason the bears don't attack the hikers more often is because the bears know that the hikers are PREPARED!
Once we start acting like pantywaists and stop carrying guns and pepper spray, the bears will attack more often.
Or when they decide to come at you (if they do know what you carry) they will come with all barrels loaded. Do you know how fast they are.
guess i'll start packing
Yeah I have to remember to pack my camera.
Had a squirrel chew through the draw string on my bear bag, it fell and opened and we had a long, hungry,unplanned hike out. We have a wire mesh bag now that we hang.
River Runner
01-17-2008, 22:34
Had a squirrel chew through the draw string on my bear bag, it fell and opened and we had a long, hungry,unplanned hike out. We have a wire mesh bag now that we hang.
Apparently squirrels are among the critters that can get into Ursacks, along with mice being able to chew small holes, and wolves and dogs being able to damage them. From the Ursack site:
"Ursack is highly effective against Marmots and raccoons. It should not be considered wolf or dog resistant. That's because they have sharp teeth and strong jaws. Bears have great strength, but their teeth are not sharp.
Other rodents have varying degrees of success. Sometimes mice can chew very small holes, but very little of your food is likely to be taken. Some species of squirrels and (we have heard) pine martens have greater success, and may on rare occasion chew holes in Ursack."
we had a trash bag strung between two trees once, just fiddling around. Chimpmunks were really comical trying to get at it
freefall
01-17-2008, 23:51
When I hike I just use common sense to decide when I'm gonna hang or just leave it be. Dead of winter on a ridge? No bear going up there for a morsel. they stick to the valleys and lower elevations like rational folk.
Early Spring- still to early for bear in the upper elevations but others like coyotes might be around. But their scared of their own shadow unless they are over-hungry.
Late spring, love is in the air, all the forest animals mating and nesting, a ridge is still too far to go for food: unless it's a mild winter.
Summer. early summer in the Shennies and PA you will see a lot of bear. Check out my Trailjournal with a bear in SNP in May of 07. I hung my food that trip in SNP because the availability of food hangers is there. But it's still a little early for plants so most bears are looking in lower elevations.
Late Summer. Bears, coyotes, etc... are looking for extra stores for the winter. I hang my food at least 100 yds from camp. Up north, the moose are rutting so I would hang my food too- never know how amorous a pack of tuna and ramen smells to a moose.
Autumn- same as late spring up north and down south. All the woodland critters are in rut. This means you will see an abundance of small mamalls but up north the snow is moving in. Look for opportunistic animals if you live at the shelters.
Winter- No worries unless it is a mild winter. Black bears do not hibernate like grizzlies. They go out occasionally for food and can be a liability grizzly can be within a hundred feet of ya'. Depending on where you hike. There are no Gizzleys East of the divide.
When I hike I just use common sense to decide when I'm gonna hang or just leave it be. Dead of winter on a ridge? No bear going up there for a morsel. they stick to the valleys and lower elevations like rational folk.
Early Spring- still to early for bear in the upper elevations but others like coyotes might be around. But their scared of their own shadow unless they are over-hungry.
Late spring, love is in the air, all the forest animals mating and nesting, a ridge is still too far to go for food: unless it's a mild winter.
Summer. early summer in the Shennies and PA you will see a lot of bear. Check out my Trailjournal with a bear in SNP in May of 07. I hung my food that trip in SNP because the availability of food hangers is there. But it's still a little early for plants so most bears are looking in lower elevations.
Late Summer. Bears, coyotes, etc... are looking for extra stores for the winter. I hang my food at least 100 yds from camp. Up north, the moose are rutting so I would hang my food too- never know how amorous a pack of tuna and ramen smells to a moose.
Autumn- same as late spring up north and down south. All the woodland critters are in rut. This means you will see an abundance of small mamalls but up north the snow is moving in. Look for opportunistic animals if you live at the shelters.
Winter- No worries unless it is a mild winter. Black bears do not hibernate like grizzlies. They go out occasionally for food and can be a liability grizzly can be within a hundred feet of ya'. Depending on where you hike. There are no Gizzleys East of the divide.
Great base summary. There are always however the rogues, renegages, sleep-walkers (that 3 or 4 day 65 degree weather in the middle of March) that come looking for a quick bite.
I for one, know when the probability is very low to none. I hang it in bear country never the less. Good practice, especially if your in a teaching mode.