View Full Version : Nude hiker rescued in Boulder
Now theres a good case for using wind chill factor. :D
She may have been suffering from hypothermia.
The story was poorly written, at least from a factual point of view.
Seriously though, its well understood that people often get delusional and strip naked when suffering from later stages of hypothermia. It is possible that this might also happen in some cases in earlier stages of hypothermia, especially if combined with other disorienting factors such as being lost, being inexperienced, fatique, dehydration, or various mental conditions but not neccessarily extreme cases. Interesting to here the full story.
Might have started off as a stunt, or just something to do if it was sunny.
Ramble~On
01-23-2008, 09:37
Classic hypothermia.....many victims of it are found nude.
Lone Wolf
01-23-2008, 09:39
.........
Very plausible L.Wolf, but lets wait and see.
Anyone not seen "The Fast Runner". Awesome flick.
http://www.atanarjuat.com/
Ramble~On
01-23-2008, 09:48
Lots of hippies and their children live in Colorado....nothing wrong with a little nude winter hiking...:-? maybe it is classic drug use.
I have heard that people suffering hypothermia will strip down sometime, but does anyone know the reason why? I can understand if clothes are wet, but if you have something other than cotton on, you would be worse off without a fire or other clothing....right? I understand that you start losing it when your core temp drops.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-23-2008, 09:53
People with hypothermia strip because they are mentally disoriented and feel like they are way too hot instead of way too cold.
People with hypothermia strip because they are mentally disoriented and feel like they are way too hot instead of way too cold.
Guess that would do it. :rolleyes:
When you get moderately to extremely hypothermic you start to feel warm, sometimes hot, as in G-D it's hot in this here snow cave I need to peel off some layers.
further proof that god has a sense of humor...
Bootstrap
01-23-2008, 10:00
Only in Boulder (http://dailycamera.com/news/2007/dec/09/naked-hiker-rescued-on-mountain-trail/), hey mags whats up with this?:)
Glad someone spotted her, brrrrrr:D
At least she wasn't wearing cotton ....
Jonathan
Usually, by the time a drug is old enough to be considered a classic, it has lost all it's potency.
envirodiver
01-23-2008, 10:45
..............
I've heard the phenomena explained different ways. One was as FD explained, that we get disoriented and think we are overheated. Another is that more advanced parts of the brain shut down and we revert to a more primal state, and take off clothes because they are encumbering us. In some cases a pair of victims have been found naked and frozen but engaged in sex. That last part might just be an urban myth. Not sure.
This is what the cop said: "He came across a naked female on the trail, and at 14 degrees, he thought that was an issue," Parker said. So I guess if it was, say, 64 degrees, he would have just let her go?:rolleyes: Things sure are different in Boulder!
This is what the cop said: "He came across a naked female on the trail, and at 14 degrees, he thought that was an issue," Parker said. So I guess if it was, say, 64 degrees, he would have just let her go?:rolleyes: Things sure are different in Boulder!
I thought the same thing. Maybe that was her way of finding "fellowship with the wilderness"...
I'm wondering why the guy who reported her didn't help her? At 14 degrees it's amazing she survived long enough for someone else to find and help her.
Alligator
01-23-2008, 13:07
I'm wondering why the guy who reported her didn't help her? At 14 degrees it's amazing she survived long enough for someone else to find and help her.I think the caller was quoted as saying she was "pretty hot":eek:.
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 13:19
Someone's daughter, possibly someone's sister or girlfriend, is found, disoriented, nude, on a hiking trail. She is taken away in an ambulance. The police consider her a 'victim', although of what is not (yet) stated.
This story is posted here - in the "Humor" forum - and people put her in the category of "hippies", drug users, and make fun that "at least she wasn't wearing cotton."
This is "Humor"? Only 2 weeks after Meredith - a vibrant young woman of about the same age - was kidnapped, murdered and decapitated by a probable serial killer while she was on a hiking trail in winter? You people think this is funny? That this woman should be mocked or more?
I'm sorry. That's sick. Don't try to justify it, don't try to do anything. Just think of how lucky she is that she was found, instead of assaulted, killed, dismembered and her body abandoned in the woods. If you think this is funny, go read the posts about the girl, the daughter, the friend, who wasn't as lucky as this one.
The Weasel
envirodiver
01-23-2008, 13:19
The report is pretty sketchy, and for all we know the guy did try and help her. She may have turned down the help, started screaming , ran off...I don't think we know.
He couldn't force help on her, what's he do tackle her and hold her down and put clothing on her....whoops that could be viewed as assault. Thinking about it...if it came to a police report and she's saying that he attacked her took her clothes, who knows where something like that could go when dealing with someone that is obviously metally impaired. So he probably did the best that he could by calling the authorities.
The report is pretty sketchy, and for all we know the guy did try and help her. She may have turned down the help, started screaming , ran off...I don't think we know.
He couldn't force help on her, what's he do tackle her and hold her down and put clothing on her....whoops that could be viewed as assault. Thinking about it...if it came to a police report and she's saying that he attacked her took her clothes, who knows where something like that could go when dealing with someone that is obviously metally impaired. So he probably did the best that he could by calling the authorities.
You do have a point but in the article this wasn't mentioned-- that she refused help or that he tried to help. I'd rather be falsely charged with assault than let the girl quite possibly die.
envirodiver
01-23-2008, 13:31
Agreed, but in the article very little was mentioned. I'm just saying that it's possible that there's more than what's printed.
I know people involved with Rocky Mountain Rescue.
Based on what they said, it was more than likely a case of hypothermia. The "umbles" (http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/jan2003/nia-23.htm)
really showed in this case.
FWIW, it is a very popular area for hiking. The foothill hiking trails get many SAR every year . I was involved with one myself earlier in the spring of this past year.
maxNcathy
01-23-2008, 13:41
: "He came across a naked female on the trail, in Boulder!
That never ever happens to me.:)
At least she wasn't wearing cotton ....
Jonathan
This is the only humorous comment, so far, on what is really a very sad incident.
Weary
Agreed, but in the article very little was mentioned. I'm just saying that it's possible that there's more than what's printed.
I sure hope so, and probably so. I'd also like to think if it were me, I would of some how, some way, got her to safety.
This is what the cop said: "He came across a naked female on the trail, and at 14 degrees, he thought that was an issue," Parker said. So I guess if it was, say, 64 degrees, he would have just let her go?:rolleyes: Things sure are different in Boulder!
Not really. Every year people go naked on the AT, at least part of the time. Nudity is not against the law any place, though some cops haven't gotten the message.
Weary
Someone's daughter, possibly someone's sister or girlfriend, is found, disoriented, nude, on a hiking trail. She is taken away in an ambulance. The police consider her a 'victim', although of what is not (yet) stated.
This story is posted here - in the "Humor" forum - and people put her in the category of "hippies", drug users, and make fun that "at least she wasn't wearing cotton."
This is "Humor"? Only 2 weeks after Meredith - a vibrant young woman of about the same age - was kidnapped, murdered and decapitated by a probable serial killer while she was on a hiking trail in winter? You people think this is funny? That this woman should be mocked or more?
I'm sorry. That's sick. Don't try to justify it, don't try to do anything. Just think of how lucky she is that she was found, instead of assaulted, killed, dismembered and her body abandoned in the woods. If you think this is funny, go read the posts about the girl, the daughter, the friend, who wasn't as lucky as this one.
The WeaselI didn't like the tone of the article, but that's the media. People even say things, even at funerals, that can be funny. We don't even know it this is a real story, so don't go totally nuts.
Personally I don't mind the humour. It's the judging I don't like.
I know people involved with Rocky Mountain Rescue.
Based on what they said, it was more than likely a case of hypothermia. The "umbles" (http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/jan2003/nia-23.htm)
really showed in this case.......
The ranger that was found dead in the Whites a couple of winters ago had removed much of his outer clothing before he died.
Weary
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 13:59
Not really. Every year people go naked on the AT, at least part of the time. Nudity is not against the law any place, though some cops haven't gotten the message.
Weary
Nudity is against the law, in nearly every place. If you disagree, don't flame me; go read my article, which was tempered by about every flame possible, and is still accurate. What's worse, it is considered a sexual offense in many places, subject to Megan's Law.
As for 'wrong forum,' yes, thank you for saying so; I appreciate that, but at minimum you should ask the moderators to move this thread, if not close it. As for 'only one humorous comment,' well, none were funny, but there were more that thought they were being funny. This woman could have died. No one has the right to suggest that she was on drugs, a hippie, or "hot" with a smarmy little smiley or "complain" that they don't get to see a dazed naked woman stumbling around in freezing temperatures.
Those without moms, daughters, sisters, wives or girlfriends that they love and respect are free to disagree with me.
TW
Alligator
01-23-2008, 14:00
From the article,
Parker said the woman did not have any obvious injuries, and there was "no indication" a crime had occurred. He said the woman has not explained why she was outside in the freezing conditions.
Also, the article was published December 9, 2007. Granted, something nefarious may have occurred, but given she was found and there doesn't appear to be any more news on the issue, it doesn't seem too likely there was any foul play.
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 14:01
I didn't like the tone of the article, but that's the media. People even say things, even at funerals, that can be funny. We don't even know it this is a real story, so don't go totally nuts.
Personally I don't mind the humour. It's the judging I don't like.
Tell you what, JAK. If you think there are funny parts to his, share them with Meredith's family. And if it's not real, it's OK to laugh about solo women in trouble on trails? Tell them that, too.
TW
Lone Wolf
01-23-2008, 14:01
weasel is right. i removed my post
Tell you what. Stop judging people, and maybe they will do the same.
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 14:03
weasel is right. i removed my post
Tell you what. Stop judging people, and maybe they will do the same.
Thanks, Wolf. You're a good man, even when we differ.
As for JAK, well, I respect Wolf.
TW
warraghiyagey
01-23-2008, 14:04
My apologizes to all offended by my poor choice of forum category for this story.
It turns out to be non-humorus.
I'll be in the doghouse
I'll bring you some biscuits and gravy. Good boy. Sit. Stay.http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/dog.gif
I We don't even know it this is a real story, so don't go totally nuts.
It is a real story.
As I said, the article was poorly written from a factual point of view. It raises a lot of hypothetical questions and possibilities, some of which are serious, and some of which are not. It might be in bad taste to comment on one possibility in the context of another possibility, but as long as you aren't judging this person specifically, I don't see the issue.
Humour is not the enemy here. Judging other people is.
Find one of my posts that was in bad taste and I will apologize.
Go **** yourselves.
envirodiver
01-23-2008, 14:07
Weasel, I don't neccessarily disagree with you, but my question is who and/or what do you think gives you the right to tell me or anyone else what to think? What to think about what is humorus or what is serious. Or for that matter about anything else?
So I do have a Mom, daughters and sister that I care about and respect. Yet I can and will disagree with you. I respect your right to say what you think, how about you respect everyone else's.
warraghiyagey
01-23-2008, 14:08
She was found alive and is being cared for. Chill. It's all OK. And it's a funny story without the sordid details.:)
Poor Woodsy. Always getting in trouble for innocuous threads. :sun
The ranger that was found dead in the Whites a couple of winters ago had removed much of his outer clothing before he died.
Weary
As mentioned, Mt. Sanitas is a very popular local hiking area. Though it is only (at most) a 1/2 hr walk from downtown (and bumps against residential areas), it is in the foothills.
On a cold, nasty day with a person who may not be prepared for the weather, bad things can happen.
Bad things can happen to happen to experienced people as well as shown by the ranger incident.
She was found alive and is being cared for. Chill. It's all OK. And it's a funny story without the sordid details.:)
Poor Woodsy. Always getting in trouble for innocuous threads. :sunI have to apologize you for my posts the other day. Got you mixed up in my head with the Weasel somehow. Sorry about that.
Weasel, nothing personal, but don't get so damned personal.
Humour isn't the main problem with this thread. Judging people without all the facts is.
So don't be a hypocrit, like me. ;)
warraghiyagey
01-23-2008, 14:16
I have to apologize you for my posts the other day. Got you mixed up in my head with the Weasel somehow. Sorry about that.
;)
:sun:sun:sun:sun
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 14:46
Weasel, I don't neccessarily disagree with you, but my question is who and/or what do you think gives you the right to tell me or anyone else what to think? What to think about what is humorus or what is serious. Or for that matter about anything else?
So I do have a Mom, daughters and sister that I care about and respect. Yet I can and will disagree with you. I respect your right to say what you think, how about you respect everyone else's.
Enviro, you're not making sense. On the one hand, you "respect [my] right to say what I think." And I think that the "humor" here about a disoriented young woman stumbling nude along a trail in freezing temps is sick. OK? Especially in the context of still-active threads about a young woman of the same age whose decapitated body was found in freezing temperatures along a trail. So if someone has the right to say that sort of thing is "humorous" - and I appreciate it a lot that Woodsy agrees this was a poor subforum - then I have the right to say that those who see humor in such a situation are sick. As I said, if you really think it's funny, well, they'd be no less funny in the "Meredith" threads. Go ahead.
So I respect your right to post here and say your say, even when I disagree. But it works both ways.
TW
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 14:50
Find one of my posts that was in bad taste and I will apologize.
Go **** yourselves.
"Stunt"? That maybe it was just a sunny day?
You don't need to apologize. I wasn't speaking of your attempts to minimize this attempt at "humor". But you weren't the epitome of sensitive, either.
TW
dixicritter
01-23-2008, 14:50
Oh my goodness. Can we say cabin fever anyone? The thread starter has already apologized for his error in starting this in the humor forum.
In light of Mags letting us know that this is indeed a real story I am now moving this thread to the Colorado Trails Forum.
ETA... Can we all settle down now, please?
Gray Blazer
01-23-2008, 14:53
Since it is no longer in the humor forum, please delete my post, thanks.
dixicritter
01-23-2008, 14:57
Since it is no longer in the humor forum, please delete my post, thanks.
taken care of
Bootstrap
01-23-2008, 15:01
Humour is not the enemy here. Judging other people is.
I suspect there may be some personality and (sub)culture differences here.
I hope that all of us care deeply about women (and men) being safe on the trail (and in other settings). I hope we would each do what we can to be helpful to someone in this kind of situation.
For Weasel, any kind of joke about this situation is a sign of not caring or of being disrespectful of the woman. For some of us, there can be humorous aspects to what is a genuinely tragic situation.
So Weasel is telling us this offends him, because any joke involving this kind of tragic situation is offensive to him. Some of us regularly joke about even tragic situations we find ourselves in, so we're going to feel differently about this.
The fact is, people who care about the woman in this story may nevertheless have different feelings about whether certain jokes are funny. We can try to understand each other, but I doubt we'll change each other.
Jonathan
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 15:01
And my posts criticising it for being in 'humor' and flowing from that can be deleted as well.
TW
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 15:04
I suspect there may be some personality and (sub)culture differences here.
I hope that all of us care deeply about women (and men) being safe on the trail (and in other settings). I hope we would each do what we can to be helpful to someone in this kind of situation.
For Weasel, any kind of joke about this situation is a sign of not caring or of being disrespectful of the woman. For some of us, there can be humorous aspects to what is a genuinely tragic situation.
So Weasel is telling us this offends him, because any joke involving this kind of tragic situation is offensive to him. Some of us regularly joke about even tragic situations we find ourselves in, so we're going to feel differently about this.
The fact is, people who care about the woman in this story may nevertheless have different feelings about whether certain jokes are funny. We can try to understand each other, but I doubt we'll change each other.
Jonathan
Bootstrap, that's a thoughtful post, and I understand what you are saying. But there are a lot of people here who still feel very raw, and very threatened, and very deeply distressed about another young woman who may have been in a similar set of circumstances only a few weeks ago. There are times, and places, for humor about some things that are just inappropriate at other times. This is one such time.
TW
Bootstrap
01-23-2008, 15:06
And I think that the "humor" here about a disoriented young woman stumbling nude along a trail in freezing temps is sick.
Weasel, does this feel to you like it's making fun of her, or an expression of not caring?
Jonathan
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 15:23
Jon-
First, placing it in the 'humor' section (since apologized for and changed) is, yes, 'making fun' of her. So is "I don't get it. I do most of my naked hiking in the summer.:D" And yes, so it " think the caller was quoted as saying she was "pretty hot":eek:." As was the comment that "at least she wasn't wearing cotton." Other comments - most removed - about maybe she was a druggy or a hippie (which, to some, may be redundant) were just insensitive. As for 'not caring', people aren't required to care about everyone on the planet (it would be nice, but it's not required that I know of), but making light of this kind of situation is out of line.
TW
why type them all over again for people to read if they are so offensive Weasel??????:-?
warraghiyagey
01-23-2008, 15:26
but making light of this kind of situation is out of line.
TW
Lighten up Francis
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 15:28
why type them all over again for people to read if they are so offensive Weasel??????:-?
Because he asked, 'Why?"
TW
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 15:34
Lighten up Francis
Well, perhaps.
But tell me what part of this I should lighten up about? Is this a humorous situation, and I should let my contrary feelings remain silent? Or when something is seriously insenstive in the context of a time when many feel serious wounding about another woman's trail tragedy? I'm sorry, W, but it wasn't funny, it wasn't humor, it wasn't sensitive, and a number of comments were thoughtlessly out of line. Saying so led a couple of people - who thought about it and agreed with me (and at least one is so independent that he wouldn't do so if I didn't have a pretty damn good point) edited their comments out.
So how light do you want me to be? Is it OK to laugh and giggle about a nude woman on the trail until she's found with her head cut off by a serial murderer? Shall we 'lighten up' after that, too, or should we stop and think about young women in serious circumstances and how it's the job of all of us on the trail to look out for each other?
Sorry. Not something I think deserves "lightening up".
TW
warraghiyagey
01-23-2008, 15:35
She was found alive and is being cared for. Given the past few weeks, that's cause for celebration and good humor.
Alligator
01-23-2008, 15:35
Bootstrap, that's a thoughtful post, and I understand what you are saying. But there are a lot of people here who still feel very raw, and very threatened, and very deeply distressed about another young woman who may have been in a similar set of circumstances only a few weeks ago. There are times, and places, for humor about some things that are just inappropriate at other times. This is one such time.
TWThere is not enough similarity between the two to draw parallels like that. The CO woman was found, with no apparent injuries. She didn't mention being in the grip of a serial killer. In fact, she didn't say how she got there. If there is more information please present it, but this happened 7 weeks ago. I honestly don't see any information that gives any indication that she was the victim of foul play.
If she was hypothermic, she's okay now. It helps to laugh about that afterwards, I know I felt better when I did.
If she was seriously mentally ill, well that would be sad. But it wasn't mentioned and it usually is.
And if she was on drugs, that would certainly explain it:D.
I'll take my post down if more convincing evidence is presented. Honestly, I usually am on the other side of this humor debate.
BTW The Weasel, I think you're pretty hot too and need a waaambulence.:eek::eek::eek:
envirodiver
01-23-2008, 15:36
but making light of this kind of situation is out of line.
TW
In your opinion, which obviously is the only one that matters.
How does a brutal murder of a woman on a trail that is very near and dear to us all, a story that we all followed for days, compare with a short newspaper story about a nude hiker that turned out well. A story that had no after story deemed newsworthy enough for follow-up. Big difference TW. No doubt had the Colorado story tuned out different, peoples posts and thoughts would also be different.
Just glad we have you, the in and out of line police on the job. Keep us all straight. You're doing a great job.
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 15:37
She was found alive and is being cared for. Given the past few weeks, that's cause for celebration and good humor.
Celebration, yes. Laughing at her circumstances and what happened to her? Well...
TW
DesertMTB
01-23-2008, 15:38
Dang! I was hoping for a photo:)
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 15:40
In your opinion, which obviously is the only one that matters.
How does a brutal murder of a woman on a trail that is very near and dear to us all, a story that we all followed for days, compare with a short newspaper story about a nude hiker that turned out well. A story that had no after story deemed newsworthy enough for follow-up. Big difference TW. No doubt had the Colorado story tuned out different, peoples posts and thoughts would also be different.
Just glad we have you, the in and out of line police on the job. Keep us all straight. You're doing a great job.
Env---
As a cop, I'm not very effective: People can (and do) say what they want, regardless of what I say. Some think about my posts (and others) and change their behavior. But that's up to them, not me.
The difference? The only difference is, thank God, that this one turned out OK. But there were several days before Meredith was believed to be dead. Was that an OK time to make light of things? No, I don't think so. Would it be again? Again, no.
So say what you want. But if you think this was a good topic for the "Humor" forum, well, we differ. A lot.
TW
Alligator
01-23-2008, 15:46
...The difference? The only difference is, thank God, that this one turned out OK. But there were several days before Meredith was believed to be dead. Was that an OK time to make light of things? No, I don't think so. Would it be again? Again, no. ...TWSo ****ing what we're not in the middle of those several days. Again no parallel.
envirodiver
01-23-2008, 16:01
The difference? The only difference is, thank God, that this one turned out OK.
What? The only difference? There are many differences. There is actually only 1 similarity and that is that a woman was involved.
Trying to stretch peoples feelings about this woman that was found in Colorado, to compare to the very sad case involving Meridith, where she was noted as missing, looked for and then found the way that she was, is a stretch that I can't buy.
You can say that you don't think nudity is humorous, you can say that people lost is not humorous (which I agree with). But, as I said had this situation turned out badly, I seriously doubt that anyone (I know I wouldn't) would be making light of it. But, it didn't, and I'd be willing to bet that the guy that called the authorities is retelling the story of how he found a naked woman on the trail in a much different way than he would have if he had instead found a body.
If you want to discuss hypothermia and the affects of it on a person. Go for it. It is an important issue for any outdoor user.
However, please cease any public discussion of weather this situation is humorous or not. And telling people to 'eff off is not kosher as well. Keep it in private.
Please listen to Dixi. I really don't want a silly flame war in the Colorado Trail forum.
Sound like a plan? If you don't agree..please PM me.
Celebration, yes. Laughing at her circumstances and what happened to her? Well...
TWAw geez. Tell it to Jay Leno. :rolleyes:
The Weasel
01-23-2008, 16:45
If you want to discuss hypothermia and the affects of it on a person. Go for it. It is an important issue for any outdoor user.
***
Please listen to Dixi. I really don't want a silly flame war in the Colorado Trail forum.
Sound like a plan? If you don't agree..please PM me.
Sold.
Also appropriate to discuss what you do when you come upon people - male or female, clothed or not - who are obviously in distress of some kind.
TW
... what you do when you come upon people - male or female, clothed or not - who are obviously in distress of some kind.
What to do when people may or may not be in distress or under coercion or otherwise in apparent need or aid, but who refuse it, or may be supposed to be fractious or litigious in the aftermath, is a matter of some general concern. Up here, at the moment, there is an ongoing discussion about the mentally ill who have been discharged but who fail to take their medication and may pose some danger to themselves or others. There have been several cases of assault involving such people, but there seems to be no easy way to reconcile their rights with their need to be compelled to take their medication. When it is a case, such as this, of a woman acting irrationally, and quite possibly refusing to cooperate, it may put the would be helper in some jeopardy to insist. It could be, is, an assault, and could end up being anything up to a sexual assault or battery.
There has for long been a reluctance on the part of medical people to render aid to people as in an auto accident for fear of the legal repercussions. In the case of domestic disputes, neighbours are often reluctant, with some justification, to get involved in the matter, for fear of being refused, called a busybody, involved in violence and so forth. In such cases, it is often the best thing to summon official aid, especially when possible by cell phone.
There aren't enough details given to know if the person who called for help also rendered other material assistance, such as following the trail, or rendering directions, and so forth. As the incident took place very close to Boulder itself, this was probably the best course, even though there was clear risk of death. Still, the woman was still active and moving about, and we certainly don't have the whole story.
What if she were in the high mountains, a day's travel from a trailhead? What then? On Everest, we are told, many don't render aid to others for fear of their own safety. But that's up in the death zone. I don't think that would hold in any hiking situation. I would say that one's ordinary duty to render aid would then be paramount, regardless of legal risks. However, if the woman was indeed naked, it would be difficult far any solo person to render effective aid for more than a short period of time. Above the tree line, it would be quite difficult. Below the tree line, one would make a camp and a fire and begin to make hot food and drink after stuffing the victim in a bag and under shelter. If any spare clothing were available, that could be applied also. But considering how minimally most people travel, that might not be enough, especially as daylight faded. One might double in the bag, but most bags are rather small, and that might not work well. Then, supposing one could revive the victim, how would one move her? She might have frostbite, and presumably couldn't move on her own.
I won't continue the hypothetical, but it would not be a simple exercise to pull off. I don't feel competent to judge the actions of one on the scene in such a situation.
The area in question:
http://www.protrails.com/trail.php?trailID=36
http://www.ci.boulder.co.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3024&Itemid=1035
I believe she was found in the valley trail area (an old road).
As to offer aid or not is a very valid quandary. If you read the COMMENTS section of the article, one gentleman apparently did try to offer aid.
'We listened to the Red one police call on the radio! The person that spotted her tried to give her his coat and she couldn't communicate and was frightened; she ran away. He was very concerned about her well being. He should be commended on the way he reported this. Thank you for taking the time to take care of her. This was a great response from our first responders."
So aid was attempted, but if someone runs away..what do you do? Contact the SAR/police IMO.
As a man, I'd be VERY cautious approaching a young woman, naked, on the trail. I would probably do what the gentleman did: Attempt to help, but if my attempt is resisted, I'd contact the authorities.
AFAIK, this case turned out OK. I have not seen any reports since I first read this report in December.
Weasel,
Thanks for standing up on this one. As I read these posts, I was fairly hurt at the number of people that made fun of a woman in obvious need of help. It's easy to get caught up in the flow and thanks to those that understood where weasel is coming from. Those of you that insist it is ok to make fun of a woman in distress, well, hope I never need help with you around. Will you make fun of me if I'm found naked on a trail? Will I have to be subject to all your naked jokes? OR maybe fat jokes? The only reason jokes are being made is because she was naked. Get your minds out of the gutter and grow up.
The person apologized who started the thread . Mea culpas were said by others. People admitted they could have said things differently.
The thread was moved from the humor section into the forum I moderate.
Please do not continue the flame war.
Thanks.
since the thread has been moved, please delete my post. thanks!:D
since the thread has been moved, please delete my post. thanks!:D
It is done!
BackTrack1
01-23-2008, 19:56
sounds like hypothermia to me
warraghiyagey
01-23-2008, 20:00
sounds like hypothermia to me
The Cuse is in the House - O My God!!!
:)
Alligator
01-23-2008, 22:48
Well, since we are discussing what to do, I'll take the case of my suspicions. You try to figure out whether she's on drugs or not and hope to talk her down. Try being friendly, understanding, calm, and unthreatening. Sit down. Let the person decide the course of action, but try to present helpful suggestions. Would you like to call a friend? Offer some kind of lifeline. There's a good chance she was on hallucinogens. If you can establish that, entertain the person. OTOH she may have been mentally ill, but some of the same tactics work.
Am I just really tired or was this article written in early December? Not that that makes it less interesting - but I was wondering if that is the case, then do we have an updated news report out of Boulder? Sorry if this is repeated in the pages of posts.
Alligator
01-23-2008, 23:21
One other thing for other situations. You help the person as much as you can without further endangering them. They're dying. Damn the consequences you're doing the right thing. Try not to chase her off a cliff though.
Am I just really tired or was this article written in early December? Not that that makes it less interesting - but I was wondering if that is the case, then do we have an updated news report out of Boulder? Sorry if this is repeated in the pages of posts.Yes it was and I haven't seen any follow up.
The Old Fhart
01-23-2008, 23:35
There is a good possibility that the fact she was naked wasn't caused by hypothermia but obviously being naked in 14 degree temps would certainly lead to hypothermia (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=96956&postcount=24).
One of the first signs of hypothermia is loss of fine motor skills such as being able to unzip clothing or unlace boots and most of us have had that problem at one time or other but we were still thinking rationally. By the time the core temperature is low enough to start affecting brain function you probably won't be capable of completely undressing. Getting third hand (or worse) information like this you really can't tell what problem caused this but I'd suspect that the initial cause was not heat related.
As to rendering aid, the person who tried to help by offering clothing, then called for help, seemed to do everything he possibly could. Having had WFA for years, I know that in NH I can't give help to anyone that refuses it, no matter how bad the situation may appear. One EMT trainer said that sometimes you have to hope that an injured person refusing 1st aid becomes non-responsive then you will have 'implied consent' and can treat them.
NH has a Good Samaritan law that states if you do the best of your ability and do nothing beyond your capabilities, you should be held blameless for what may happen. If you decide to help in a situation such as this, you have to continue aid until you can give control to someone with a higher level of training, like an EMT, hospital, etc. The only escape clause is when continuing aid in an impossible situation would endanger you as well.
I was talking to a ranger in the smokies and he told me that many people that are found froze to death are found naked, it's just not reported. He explained to me that hypothermia's final stages makes the person feel like they're on fire, hence the stripping of clothes to try to cool off.
Find one of my posts that was in bad taste and I will apologize.
Go **** yourselves.
How bout that one?
Jim Adams
01-24-2008, 01:04
never mind!
geek
If it was here in New Brunswick, and it was that cold, and I thought I could catch her I would run after her and give her help whether she wanted it or not. Damn the consequences. I'm 45. If I do jail time for it. As for possible litigation, I don't have much to lose. If it was some place else it would depend on my assessment of the situation, but I would hope that I would do the same thing.
If folks want to misinterpret my posts, or what others have implied, please think twice.
I meant to say, if I ended up doing jail time for it, so be it if I thought it might save a life. I didn't quite complete that sentence. In normal first aid situations I might respond differently, but in this situation, if I thought it was a case of hypothermia, that's what I would do.
boots socks and a smile the only way to hike
What do they teach in first aid in various jurisdictions about helping people when they refuse help, but your assessment is that they aren't in a state where they are able to do so rationally. I'm pretty sure here in New Brunswick you can go ahead and help them anyway. There could be consequences, but if it could be shown that either your assessment was correct, or you had reasonable cause to believe it was correct, that there would not be consequences, either criminal or civil.
Worth discussing?
jersey joe
01-24-2008, 09:28
I think helping someone in that situation might fall under the good samaritin law or something.
Of course you would also have to demonstrate that you were causing less harm or less risk by helping them than by letting them go on there way and calling the authorities. This would be easier in a case of a small child or an infirmed person. For someone in their twenties it would depend on their size and so forth. You could also try and follow them if that was a better course of action, if you could keep up. They might run, but that is not a bad thing when someone is hypothermic, as long as you are capable of catching them and treating them when they eventually bonk.
I'm not saying the first responder did the wrong thing. It sounds to me like he couldn't catch her or react fast enough. It was also a fairly contained area where there would be a fairly good chance of finding her. Not sure exactly what his thinking was, and I wasn't there. Just discussing such situations in general. It is really not that uncommon.
I think the newspaper article was irresponsible. The headline was very poor. There also could have been some mention about the possiblity of the hypothermia, which was my first impression. I've got nothing against nude hiking, but I don't think the newspaper article served public interests by characterizing her situation in this way and them leaving the story totally hanging.
Drowning is a similar situation. I'm not much of a swimmer and I've never taken any life guard training other that the basics thru first aid and the olf Walter Safety stuff. Extend your reach and all that. Usually the problem there is not that the person doesn't want help but that they might want to drag you down with them. In the old days weren't you supposed to knock them unconscious if you had to, or something like that?
Jim Adams
01-24-2008, 09:56
Of course you would also have to demonstrate that you were causing less harm or less risk by helping them than by letting them go on there way and calling the authorities. This would be easier in a case of a small child or an infirmed person. For someone in their twenties it would depend on their size and so forth. You could also try and follow them if that was a better course of action, if you could keep up. They might run, but that is not a bad thing when someone is hypothermic, as long as you are capable of catching them and treating them when they eventually bonk.
I'm not saying the first responder did the wrong thing. It sounds to me like he couldn't catch her or react fast enough. It was also a fairly contained area where there would be a fairly good chance of finding her. Not sure exactly what his thinking was, and I wasn't there. Just discussing such situations in general. It is really not that uncommon.
I think the newspaper article was irresponsible. The headline was very poor. There also could have been some mention about the possiblity of the hypothermia, which was my first impression. I've got nothing against nude hiking, but I don't think the newspaper article served public interests by characterizing her situation in this way and them leaving the story totally hanging.
the newspaper isn't committed to be the totally detailed document...it is committed to make you interested and buy the newspaper.
in the U.S. (Pennsylvania), if the person is of sound mind to answer normal questions correctly and you still treat or transport against their will it is assault and kidnapping.:-?
geek
I understand that about 'some' newspapers. I'm not exactly committed to defending such newspapers, and so I feel free to criticize them. It wasn't totally tabloid, but they could have done better. That's all I'm saying.
If I was in Pennsylvania I would do it anyway regardless of the law if I thought it would save her life, but that is on the assumption that she would not be of sound mind if she was hypothermic. I wouldn't assume she was hypothermic simply because she was naked. It would depend on the wind chill factor and her behaviour.
In some other cultures it might be wrong to help someone under some circumstances even if they are not of sound mind at the time, and if I was dealing with such a culture I might consider respecting that. Legalities and risks of litigation I do not have so much patience for. Common sense and good conscience must prevail.
The Weasel
01-24-2008, 10:34
Of course you would also have to demonstrate that you were causing less harm or less risk by helping them than by letting them go on there way and calling the authorities. ***.
The first rule for 'first responders' is, "Make sure you are safe." The second rule is, "Call or send for help." Attacking someone who runs off violates both rules.
TW
The third rule is.
Sometimes it is OK to ignore the first rule.
I did not say I would attack anyone.
Refer to one of my earlier posts for further instructions.
The first rule for 'first responders' is, "Make sure you are safe." The second rule is, "Call or send for help." Attacking someone who runs off violates both rules.
TWWhy don't we just end it right here Weasel?
warraghiyagey
01-24-2008, 10:52
Why don't we just end it right here Weasel?
Yeah Weasel, before all this somehow becomes my fault. . . again.:p
warraghiyagey
01-24-2008, 11:08
:welcome
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/angel.gif
Drowning is a similar situation. I'm not much of a swimmer and I've never taken any life guard training In the old days weren't you supposed to knock them unconscious if you had to, or something like that?
No. Arms length, yes.
warraghiyagey
01-24-2008, 11:24
:o.............http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/dog.gif..........:o
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/fire.gif
Can't happen soon enough!
warraghiyagey
01-24-2008, 11:30
Drowning is a similar situation. . . In the old days weren't you supposed to knock them unconscious if you had to, or something like that?
No, approach from below water. Pull victim just under surface, spin them facing away, slide up under armpit and perform one arm-cross chest rescue. The act of pulling them just under surface takes away their reaction to try to climb on top of you. Then rescuer is in control. Knocking victim unconscious isn't one of the techniques.
No, approach from below water. Pull victim just under surface, spin them facing away, slide up under armpit and perform one arm-cross chest rescue. The act of pulling them just under surface takes away their reaction to try to climb on top of you. Then rescuer is in control. Knocking victim unconscious isn't one of the techniques.Thanks for that. I figured it must have been a Hollywood thing. That technique you describe sounds pretty slick. Does it take much practice?
warraghiyagey
01-24-2008, 11:42
Thanks for that. I figured it must have been a Hollywood thing. That technique you describe sounds pretty slick. Does it take much practice?
IT was the one in-water technique that I was the most confident in. I believe I practiced it about 50 times before my first test. The key is that pulling the victim just under the surface (odd but true) disrupts their panick mode. Two techniques, one result. Either dive and approach from front, grab victims ankles and spin them facing away, or dive completely under them and come up behind. Each depending on other factors.
I've only used it in actual rescue once and it worked just like the textbook said it would.
Very cool.
No, approach from below water. Pull victim just under surface, spin them facing away, slide up under armpit and perform one arm-cross chest rescue. The act of pulling them just under surface takes away their reaction to try to climb on top of you. Then rescuer is in control. Knocking victim unconscious isn't one of the techniques.
Sounds like a good way to get kicked in the head, or worse.
Handful of hair is what I was taught. But then I am old.
Not too many water rescues on the CO Trail. Long stick or such might be enough, I have slid on greasy clay, but got more mud than water on me.
warraghiyagey
01-24-2008, 11:53
[quote=mudhead;511019]Sounds like a good way to get kicked in the head, or worse.
quote]
The training deals with avoiding that.
Sounds really interesting. Must be some sort of dive reflex.
warraghiyagey
01-24-2008, 12:06
Sounds really interesting. Must be some sort of dive reflex.
PRetty much. A potential drowning victim has only one reaction and that is to stay above water. During the second and a half they are pulled under their survival instinct can't catch up to the situation and by the time it does (provided the rescuer has performed properly) they are in firm grasp above the water and it calms them to see they are above water without having to fight for it. As long as they can breath they become much more docile.
The Weasel
01-24-2008, 13:45
Why don't we just end it right here Weasel?
Yeah Weasel, before all this somehow becomes my fault. . . again.:p
End what? A discussion about how to react in such circumstances? Not sure I see your problem with that.
TW
Naw that wasn't it.
Lemme translate for you.
"No, I want a pissing match. Naaaa naaaa! You're it"!
No, approach from below water. Pull victim just under surface, spin them facing away, slide up under armpit and perform one arm-cross chest rescue. The act of pulling them just under surface takes away their reaction to try to climb on top of you. Then rescuer is in control. Knocking victim unconscious isn't one of the techniques.
you msut have taken the course....i use to teach lifeguarding classes
warraghiyagey
01-24-2008, 16:54
you msut have taken the course....i use to teach lifeguarding classes
Took it, taught it, advance life gaurding, water safety instructor, blah, blah, but it's been quite a few years since my cert. was current. Good stuff to know though.:)
envirodiver
01-24-2008, 17:00
Those are very similar to the techniques that we taught for scuba rescues as well. Biggest difference being when you come up behind them, grab their 1st stage valve at the top of the tank, pull them up and back and lock their tank between your legs, reach around and inflate their BCD and pulled them in holding the tank valve.
It's a little easier, if done right, with that tank and BCD between you. They have a much more difficult time reaching around and grabbing you.
warraghiyagey
01-24-2008, 17:03
Those are very similar to the techniques that we taught for scuba rescues as well. Biggest difference being when you come up behind them, grab their 1st stage valve at the top of the tank, pull them up and back and lock their tank between your legs, reach around and inflate their BCD and pulled them in holding the tank valve.
It's a little easier, if done right, with that tank and BCD between you. They have a much more difficult time reaching around and grabbing you.
Never did the SCUBA rescue thing. In fact, never did SCUBA at all. Snorkelling - yes. SCUBA rescue sounds a bit more involved.
envirodiver
01-24-2008, 17:07
Actually it's a bit easier IMO. For 1 thing you are both wearing flotation devices (Bouancy Compensating Devices, BCD) that you can put air in and float. Some of the tasks are difficult, but the class was excellent fun. Lot's of role playing, we probably used the same equpiment that you did. Boogie boards, throw ropes, etc.
warraghiyagey
01-24-2008, 17:08
Lot's of role playing, .
Weird. We never did that.:o;):p
Took it, taught it, advance life gaurding, water safety instructor, blah, blah, but it's been quite a few years since my cert. was current. Good stuff to know though.:)
flashbacks of the videos......"grab on!!.....grab on!!"......and swapping spit for rubbing alcohol with ressesive annie:eek:
did you ever have to backboard anyone or do actual CPR....scary stuff
envirodiver
01-24-2008, 17:19
Weird. We never did that.:o;):p
Really, that was the best part. Sometimes the "victims" were brutal on the rescuer, while still playing the part. If you messed up you paid the price. Very effective to drive home a point and well controlled w/ instructors in the water with "victims" and students.
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-24-2008, 17:54
did you ever have .... do actual CPR....scary stuffYes, on a four month old baby who had a seizure while I was taking her to visit her mother... scary, scary stuff.
Yes, on a four month old baby who had a seizure while I was taking her to visit her mother... scary, scary stuff.
i have backboarded three times...one serious..... and only witnessed CPR.....i have been close a hand full of times.....spend most of your life around pools and it is bound to find you sooner or later
How did that turn out FD? Good I'm hoping.
How do you think it might have turned out without the training?
i have backboarded three times...one serious..... and only witnessed CPR.....i have been close a hand full of times.....spend most of your life around pools and it is bound to find you sooner or laterI sort of rescued rescued a kid in a pool once. It was at a mixed barbeque party (kids and drinks) and I thought most parents were a little distracted so I kinda kept half an eye on the pool. Sure enough this little fellow went in the depend and wasn't making it back to the side so I just sort of hopped in mid sentence, clothes and all, pushed him to his mom, then went back to finish my sentence. It was funny in a way. I think I was still talking when I hit the water.
What the heck is a depend? I gotta get back to checking my posts. :)
Frolicking Dinosaurs
01-24-2008, 18:08
How did that turn out FD? Good I'm hoping.
How do you think it might have turned out without the training?I was able to revive her - she was an abused child with 'shaken baby' syndrome - had some serious brain damage. It took several months to find a combo of meds that would control her seizures. Not sure of the long-term outcome as she was adopted by a family not in this area when she was 15 months old.
As to how it would have turned out had I not been required to know infant and child CPR - not nearly as well as it did.
I think I'm overdue on some refresher training. I hang out with kids enough you never know. Thanks for the reminder FD.
Oh. And well done of course. Sad about the abuse. Alcohol fetal syndrome makes for many sad situations also. Some kids just don't seem to have a chance. Good to have some folks like you around when God needs to place his hand. Catcher in the Rye and all.
The Weasel
01-24-2008, 19:06
flashbacks of the videos......"grab on!!.....grab on!!"......and swapping spit for rubbing alcohol with ressesive annie:eek:
did you ever have to backboard anyone or do actual CPR....scary stuff
Yes, a number of years back, CPR to my mother. Found her too late for ultimate survival although her heart/breathing restarted. It can work.
TW
Bootstrap
01-24-2008, 19:06
I was able to revive her - she was an abused child with 'shaken baby' syndrome - had some serious brain damage. It took several months to find a combo of meds that would control her seizures. Not sure of the long-term outcome as she was adopted by a family not in this area when she was 15 months old.
Apparently, when babies are crying and screaming them, shaking babies quiets them very effectively and makes them look content - while doing irreparable nerve damage and possibly endangering their lives. So some uneducated but well-meaning parents shake their kids as a way of comforting them. Scary.
Jonathan