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View Full Version : A noob's question: Biggest Surprise?



jhomeresq
01-27-2008, 15:27
All-

Being the esteemed collection of backpacker's that you are I'm hoping you might think back to your first trip or two out on the trail. I'd love to know: What was the thing(s?) that most surprised you on your first few times out on a multi-day backpacking trip?

My wife and I are headed out in a few weeks for the first time on an actual backpacking trip. We'd love hear your stories about your first time out.

Many thanks,
John

dessertrat
01-27-2008, 15:30
How little appetite I had. Eventually, a long distance hiker will develop an enormous appetite as fat starts to drop. But for the first few days, if you are anything like me, and have a bit of fat to burn, you won't eat half as much as you expect you will.

You will also realize that something that didn't seem that heavy at home is heavier on the trail.

warraghiyagey
01-27-2008, 15:37
Carrying produce is a bad (see heavy) idea. Apples, big carrots, baby carrots, three writing pads, 5 cotton t-shirts, town clothes. A Nikon Camera with 600mm zoom. 3 books. Yup, all while heading into the 100 mile wilderness.
Bad, bad, bad. Keep it light, that's what I learned.:o

Lone Wolf
01-27-2008, 15:46
i was surprised at the amount of shelters, blazes, people, road crossings and water. lots of all.

fehchet
01-27-2008, 15:51
I was surprised at the amount of power lines one walks under. Some hum at a high pitch.

gumball
01-27-2008, 16:04
I was surprised at how heavy rain can make an already too heavy pack if you don't properly pack stuff.

And how important the distribution of weight in your pack is for a painful v. painless trip.

Lilred
01-27-2008, 16:16
I was surprised by how many grave markers and memorials are on the trail.

dessertrat
01-27-2008, 16:16
Yes, keep the weight as close to your back as you can. Keeping it close to your back is more important than what it actually weighs sometimes. It's the leverage idea, if you see what I mean-- a weight sticking way out there puts some serious torque on your spine.

micromega
01-27-2008, 16:26
It never got as dark as I thought it would at night. I once had the notion that being in a forest at night would be pitch black, and was pleasantly surprised (and somewhat relieved) to discover otherwise.

10-K
01-27-2008, 16:43
I was surprised that it is 1/3 downhill and 2/3 uphill. How do they do that??

Seriously though.. I was surprised at how close the trail is to civilization. I thought I was heading off into the wild unknown for some reason. Fact is, so far I've never been far from a house, store, road, etc....

Thomas

Lion King
01-27-2008, 16:56
I was surprised at how a day so full of joy and beauty that has you singing and dancing along the trail can turn into a rage filled curse fest when some insane rock/root/eneven plot of earth grabs your foot and twists so that the outside of the soul of your foot is touching the inner part of your calf and how you shreik like a little girl and hit the ground like a brick.

oh, that and how many biting bugs are hungry for blood.

modiyooch
01-27-2008, 17:32
I was from flat lands and I was surprised at the quarter size scrapes and blisters that appeared on the back of my heels within the first few steps uphill.

map man
01-27-2008, 17:56
I was surprised at how well I slept on the trail, right from the start. It's funny, because I'm a habitual door-locker at home (got an apartment broken into twice in one week when I was younger and it made an impression), but out on trail, with nothing but thin layers of silnylon or netting between me and the big, bad world, I sleep great. And all I use is a Z-rest foam pad, not an inflator.

You hear stories about people hearing animal footsteps outside their tent, and imagining it to be some huge, nasty critter, but the first time that happened to me that first year I was hiking, I happened to be alone, a long heavy rain right after I set up my tent had made me decide NOT to hang a bear bag that night (for the first time), but to set the bag outside my tent under the vestibule, yet when I woke to those animal footsteps, I just thought, "oh, a mouse or ground squirrel after my food," and I brought the food bag inside the tent and was back sleeping soundly within a minute. No worries!

I'll bet all kinds of people here surprised themselves, too, at the happy adjustments our psyches make when we return to living closer to nature on the trail, despite all the lengths we go to to separate ourselves from it in our "ordinary" lives:sun.

4eyedbuzzard
01-27-2008, 18:12
How difficult it is to average 2 mph on the trail.

warraghiyagey
01-27-2008, 18:15
How difficult it is to average 2 mph on the trail.
That's a pretty standard pace for someone just enjoying the hike. Easy enough.

ScottP
01-27-2008, 18:59
I was surprised at how cold Georgia and North Carolina were in March.

I was surprised at how civilized the AT was.

saimyoji
01-27-2008, 18:59
I was surprised at how competitive people were about gear, food, miles, experiences. I couldn't get a word in conversations because people were so full of their own accomplishments, and wanted others to validate them.

I did meet many very cool folks though.

Kirby
01-27-2008, 19:02
I was surprised at how competitive people were about gear, food, miles, experiences. I couldn't get a word in conversations because people were so full of their own accomplishments, and wanted others to validate them.

I did meet many very cool folks though.

A couple of the thru hikers I met in the wilderness this summer were very full of themselves and thought they were holier than thou. I unofficially enjoy the company of section hikers, or older hikers, more than thru hikers, they just seem to be more pleasant.

Kirby

warraghiyagey
01-27-2008, 19:17
That's a pretty standard pace for someone just enjoying the hike. Easy enough.
Oops. :o:o

bloodmountainman
01-27-2008, 19:43
The amount of food you don't need was my surprise. Eating food is like taking in fuel!

Pedaling Fool
01-27-2008, 20:39
Where/when you planning to hike and how far?

Pretty much what everyone else has said. Some of my problems/suprises in the beginning:

First hike was a SOBO thru-hike of Maine (back in '81). Got the worst sunburn of my life coming over Knife-edge to the peak of Katahdin. The blisters were as big as golf balls and the back of my legs turned purple (no exaggeration). I believe this is why I don't grow hair on my calves now. I also learned later that the protective layer of the atmosphere diminishes "x" amount for every 1000' elevation gain. Wish I knew that before going over Katahdin via Knife-edge.

On the same trip, towards the end of the 100 mile wilderness we were low on food, not being far from Monson it didn't seem too bad. But then out of no where we ran into a rainy icy sleet storm (this was summer july time frame). It was so bad we couldn't make it to the shelter, could barley even stay on the trail. We set up tents and was stuck there for nearly 48 hours, ended up eating whole onions like they were apples(and liked it). It was so cold the pools of water in the rock was forming ice, again it was summer (not spring/fall). As soon as it let up we ran all the way to Monson.

Lone Wolf
01-27-2008, 20:52
A couple of the thru hikers I met in the wilderness this summer were very full of themselves and thought they were holier than thou. I unofficially enjoy the company of section hikers, or older hikers, more than thru hikers, they just seem to be more pleasant.

Kirby

hold that thought. don't become one of "them".

Kirby
01-27-2008, 21:03
hold that thought. don't become one of "them".

I'm certainly hoping I don't become a thru hiker who believes he is holier than thou, or comes across as rude.

Kirby

Blissful
01-27-2008, 21:06
My wife and I are headed out in a few weeks for the first time on an actual backpacking trip. We'd love hear your stories about your first time out.

Many thanks,
John

The best way to do this is to send you a bit from the book I am writing on my AT experience. This is taken from the very first time I had ever backpacked on the AT. And although it was an eye opener, I knew I would be okay when I got back home and still had an overwhelming urge to return to the trail as soon as I could. When it's in your blood, it's there to stay no matter what.

"....we (finally) decide to try out a part of the (Appalachian) trail near our home. I don my backpack, overloaded with gear, and we hike a section of the trail called the Three Ridges. Little did I know that it’s one of the tougher sections of the Appalachian Trail in Virginia. Every day it rained. One night I was in my tent with droplets of water falling on me from a violent thunderstorm and decided I should try to make a run for the trail shelter and better protection. I crawl out to find thousands of worms had materialized from the ground and were now squirming their way toward my tent. I sit there and cry. How could I possibly do this thing called the Appalachian Trail? What ever possessed me to even want to try? Sure I had read books, but I really knew nothing about what it meant to live in the trenches of this trail – trenches now filled with puddles, mud, and earthworms by the thousands.

The next day we trudge up rugged terrain through periods of rain. There are no views to be had. I have only blisters and pain. My pack weighs a hundred pounds, or at least it felt like it. We come upon another shelter to discover the occupants had moved on when they heard our family was coming. I’m grateful for that provision. I would have a dry place to spend the night. But I am still discouraged about trying to do some long distance hike. I didn’t know if I could cope with it all. The weather. The discomfort. The worms. And that evening I find a mouse had nibbled on the nose pads to my glasses. My dream is turning into a nightmare.

But it just so happened that one of the other hikers in residence in the shelter had completed a hike of the Appalachian Trail a few years previously. I share my concern with him, the doubt that is growing taller than any mountain we had just climbed that day.

“The trail is ninety percent mental,” the hiker says. “You’ll be able to handle the physical aspect. It’s the mental game you need to get a handle on. But from what you’ve been saying, wanting to do this since you were young, I’d say you’ve got a good shot at accomplishing it.”

I truly believe he bore a message sent by God, and when I was down and out about this whole idea. Encouragement that gave me a lift, even though my first experience with life on the trail proved much harder than I ever anticipated."

Tinker
01-27-2008, 21:39
My very first time on a multi day 2 nights, 3 days, I was ill equipped in the White Mountains. I had a cotton hooded sweatshirt, a poncho (which was ok, except the wind blew rain under it) jeans, etc. One of my companions had just bought some way heavy leather boots and rented a Jansport external frame (I had an EMS external myself - if you know about the Jansport "wings" you'll catch my drift). He had blisters on blisters on his feet, his hips were sore from the pack (full of clothing, must have had 5 changes), we (and the third member of the party) were damp, set up the tent in Garfield Pond's swamp and woke up to fog. We quickly found out that the trail to Garfield summit, which was a bunch of stepping stones, were all glazed with ice. We were supposed to spend the first night at Garfield shelter, proceed to Galehead hut, then go down. It took us about 2 hours to go the 1/4 mile from G. pond to Garfield shelter. We spent the night there, steam everywhere in the shelter from wet clothes and camp stoves. My friend with the rented equipment found out that his Thermarest had a leak, and his hips were sore already. That was his last hike, to my knowledge. Me, I was wet and cold, but enjoyed every minute (hey, I was in the MOUNTAINS!). The other guy and I still hike upon occasion. Last fall, we crossed the flank of Mt. Washington (had intended to climb it, but wind was around 50 mph. and temps were in the 40s). We had a great time! :)

Tinker
01-27-2008, 21:41
Oh, yeah, It was raining sideways last trip on Mt. W. STILL had a great time. :) :) !!!

Yahtzee
01-27-2008, 21:46
I think the lack of appetite was the biggest surprise. My metabolism didn't kick in until somewhere in Virginia. Lost 20pds by Hot Springs (around 270 miles/3wks in). That said, still carry more food than you will need, but don't be shocked if you don't feel like eating it.

Newb
01-27-2008, 21:49
How much harder it is than it looks. How much my feet can really hurt at the end of the day. How in the winter, with no foliage, there's nowhere to hide in order to take a dump. How much water I drink beyond expectations. How much joy the trail can bring.

Roots
01-27-2008, 22:00
Here are some of my thoughts from the 1st backpacking trip:

-I can't believe how hot it is, even at 5000ft in July
-Boy, there are a lot rocks and roots(my language wasn't that nice-this is how I got my trail name)
-I have no appetite, I thought I would starve
-The gear has GOT TO lighten up
-My feet and legs have NEVER hurt so bad
-Why do I keep going down and up, down and up, PUDS...
-I have never felt more disgustingly dirty in all my life

YEAH, WE DID IT!!! Let's go again!! :)

burger
01-27-2008, 22:06
My biggest surprise was how much hiking can hurt. Three days into the start of a 900-mile section, we had a big downhill into one of the gaps in SNP. This was at the end of a long day, and my feet were killing me. I asked a couple of thru-hikers if it gets less painful as you get more miles under your belt. "Nope," they said. "It always hurts."

That turned out to be true--but luckily you do get better at ignoring the pain. And the experience of being out there on a long hike is so great that the pain really ceases to matter after a while.

Alligator
01-27-2008, 22:11
I was surprised by the number of shooting stars I saw and how bad canned shrimp is.

shelterbuilder
01-27-2008, 22:28
Having started my hiking career in Pa., one of my first questions turned out to be: "WHERE DID THEY FIND ALL OF THESE DOGGONE ROCKS!!!":eek:

warraghiyagey
01-27-2008, 22:32
I'm certainly hoping I don't become a thru hiker who believes he is holier than thou, or comes across as rude.

Kirby
Too late.
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/laughing021.gif

spittinpigeon
01-27-2008, 22:35
I was surprised at the number of humming birds in Maine.

dessertrat
01-28-2008, 00:13
hold that thought. don't become one of "them".

I've met thru-hikers in Maine who I liked, and others who seemed like pompous trustafarians. Kirby seems pretty OK now, I don't think walking 2000 miles will make him a jackass. (I do think it might make him tired, though!)

dessertrat
01-28-2008, 00:16
Having started my hiking career in Pa., one of my first questions turned out to be: "WHERE DID THEY FIND ALL OF THESE DOGGONE ROCKS!!!":eek:

In Maine, the story used to go like this:

Tourist: Hey, farmer, do you know where all those rocks came from?

Farmer: Ayuh, glacier brung 'em.

Tourist: Where'd the glacier go?

Farmer: Back to get more rocks, I guess

Hooch
01-28-2008, 00:27
I think the thing that surprised me the most was how much water I could consume. I drink a lot of water, anyway. On my first multi-day backpackign trip the weather was pretty warm and I at least sipped every few minutes, stopping to drink more at breaks. I had an 2.5 liter hydration bladder in my pack and another 1 liter of water in a Nalgene. By the time I got to camp on my first day, both the hydration bladder and the Nalgene were bone dry after about 9 miles or so. I even drank another liter of water before I went to sleep that night.

The other thing that surprised me was how much I enjoyed the solitude of hiking alone. Don't get me wrong, I love to hike with Doc, he's the best friend and hiking partner I could ask for (Aces 'til death, my brother!). But I do have to admit how much I enjoy hiking alone when I'm in the mood for it.

Downunda
01-28-2008, 00:45
1) The toll that homesickness can take on your morale
2) How many, or for that matter how few hikers could turn up at a shelter
3) Ran out of water and suffered... not just once!
4) How easy completing the AT can be with the "one step at a time" attitude

minnesotasmith
01-28-2008, 01:13
1) How terribly hard much of the Trail in southern Maine was. I had NO idea it was often harder than the Whites were.

2) How wet the conditions were, so much of the time.

3) How good people associated with the Trail so often were.

4) How much of the Trail was unfinished, and is visibly degrading.

5) How thruhikers commonly change what seems normal to them in expectations and behavior.

Heater
01-28-2008, 05:33
I'm certainly hoping I don't become a thru hiker who believes he is holier than thou, or comes across as rude.

Kirby

If the way you come across when talking about the cheatriots is any indication, you should not hold your hopes real high.:-?

gsingjane
01-28-2008, 09:02
Two main things: how uneven the trail was, how it needed your attention every moment. I think I was expecting a cushy, groomed footpath winding away over gentle hills. But mostly, how darn hard physically it was. I thought I was in fairly decent shape (at least in cardio terms) but gosh, it was physically, and therefore mentally, harder than anything I'd ever attempted. I could easily run 10 miles in two hours, but it would take me all day to hike it, and at the end I'd be wasted. What a shock.

Jane in CT

BR360
01-28-2008, 10:59
I was surprised on my first time out by:
Winter:
How cold it gets, even when it's not that cold. I had warm clothes but that cold air on my face always was a shock.
How it got dark so early
How good that hot cocoa was after hiking all day.
How cold my hands got packing away my sleeping bag and tent (not wearing gloves).


Summer:
How annoying the no-see-ums and black gnats were. They drove me nuts.
How hot and sweaty I got.

I was (am) surprised ANYTIME:
How one small rock or root under my sleeping pad could ruin my sleep (now I either use a 2.5" air mattress, or hammock:)).
How friendly people were on the trail.
How AWESOME it is, despite the hardships, to reach that amazing view or vista!
How good peanut butter and bagels taste after hiking for a few miles.

And how good that hot shower was, when I returned to civilization!!!:clap

TinAbbey
01-28-2008, 11:43
I was surprised at how little of what I brought, I actually used.

JAK
01-28-2008, 12:30
Many surprises. Most dealing with nature are pleasant, because even if you are wet and cold and lost and hungry as a result of the surprise you learn something about nature.

Most unpleasant surprise was that heavy backpacks are a stupid waste of money.

paradoxb3
01-28-2008, 12:44
on my first trip on the AT (3 days) in GA, i was suprised how quickly the (few) creature comforts i carried became useless burdens. that rain-soaked camp chair that i used once about 3 hours into my trip might as well had been a rock the rest of the way. at least then it wouldnt have taken up as much space.

i, like many of you, was suprised at how little i ate. i planned my food for 3 days worth of meals like i might eat at home, and had half of it left over when i was done!

ki0eh
01-28-2008, 13:05
4) How much of the Trail was unfinished, and is visibly degrading.


Just curious, what do you mean by "unfinished"?

jhick
01-28-2008, 13:23
Seeing more people than I would have guessed. At times when I thought I may have been really out there, along came someone. If you want solitude, learn to like the winter.

Appalachian Tater
01-28-2008, 20:18
I didn't know what to expect, so "surprised" is the wrong word. But hikers spend all day walking up and down mountains and as obvious as it may seem, I didn't truly understand that ahead of time. During your waking hours you walk almost all the time and most of it is either up or down a slope.

minnesotasmith
01-28-2008, 22:23
Just curious, what do you mean by "unfinished"?

Much of the Trail, especially parts of southern Maine, the eastern half of PA, and the Whites, was just a periodically marked route, not actually a trail. As in, the difference between the sections of the CDT that are just a "hike between points A and B, getting there however you wish" and those yet-to-have-trail-construction-work sections of the AT (e.g., bushwacking) was a few white blazes of varying age and condition.

ki0eh
01-29-2008, 17:11
So to be "finished" one would need to blast out all the rocks?

Dkeener
01-29-2008, 17:51
My biggest surprise was how heavy my lightweight pack became. Second was how high the hills became and how long the trail was.

minnesotasmith
01-30-2008, 02:15
So to be "finished" one would need to blast out all the rocks?

1) Take a picture of an average-to-above-average section of the Trail in Georgia, Vermont, or Virginia, one with rocks mostly out of the Trail, switchbacked, brush cut back, etc.

2) Show it to bigshots WRT the AT in PA, NH, and ME.

3) Tell them, "Do you think you can make it like this, or do we need to find someone who can?"

4) If they can't hack bringing the Trail up to rural Southern standards, boot their clubs, and find ones that can.

GGS2
01-30-2008, 03:44
Much of the Trail, especially parts of southern Maine, the eastern half of PA, and the Whites, was just a periodically marked route, not actually a trail. ...

This seems to me a quandry. I would not like to have a trail be a uniform, built treadway from GA to ME. That would be a roadwalk. There are some, like Nimblewill Nomad, who like roadwalks. I mostly do not, and I wouldn't choose to make the trail in ME the same as the trail in GA, What would be the point?

The purpose of a built trail is only partly to ease the passage of the hiker. Mostly a trail is to confine the traffic degradation to a narrow compass, so the wild land is still there as the trail passes through. The main problem with multipurpose trails is that the treadway is a mini-road, or, in the case of quadruped, mountain or dirt bike or atv traffic, a morass, neither of which is best suited to biped traffic. The better the tread, the greater the temptation for non-pedestrians to usurp the trail and use it as a thoroughfare into the back country. While motorized enthusiasts would be in favor of this, I would not, nor would most environmentalists or hikers, I would hope.

For the backcountry hiker, a rough trail is best, as it discourages excess traffic of an undesirable sort, being suitable only for hiking. The only difficulty is that a certain level of use is required to finance trail maintenance and advocacy. If it takes a certain level of skill and effort, so much the better. If you want a walk in a park, there are plenty of them available. A wilderness trail is to see what the "unaltered" land is like, and what life lives there. You can't improve it.

Lilred
01-30-2008, 09:24
1) Take a picture of an average-to-above-average section of the Trail in Georgia, Vermont, or Virginia, one with rocks mostly out of the Trail, switchbacked, brush cut back, etc.

2) Show it to bigshots WRT the AT in PA, NH, and ME.

3) Tell them, "Do you think you can make it like this, or do we need to find someone who can?"

4) If they can't hack bringing the Trail up to rural Southern standards, boot their clubs, and find ones that can.

Rural southern standards?? LOLOL

Boot their clubs?? LOLOL ummm this is volunteer work MS LOLOLOL God, this made my day. Thanks for the laughs....

MOWGLI
01-30-2008, 09:28
My first backpacking trip was in Costa Rica, and I was surprised at how physically unprepared I was for climbing mountains in tropical heat while wearing a pack. I learned that regardless of your physical condition, there is no substitute for backpacking when planning for a long distance hike.

MOWGLI
01-30-2008, 09:31
1) Take a picture of an average-to-above-average section of the Trail in Georgia, Vermont, or Virginia, one with rocks mostly out of the Trail, switchbacked, brush cut back, etc.

2) Show it to bigshots WRT the AT in PA, NH, and ME.

3) Tell them, "Do you think you can make it like this, or do we need to find someone who can?"

4) If they can't hack bringing the Trail up to rural Southern standards, boot their clubs, and find ones that can.

You need to conform to the trail. The trail doesn't need to conform to your expectations. That's something I learned early on while backpacking. Obviously that lesson was lost on others.

PS: The trail in Maine, NH and PA is fine - just the way it is - IMO.

Jim Obermeyer
01-30-2008, 09:37
I was surprised it was so strenuous. It's not like walking the golf course or running 5 miles and going to the gym everday, it was a different type of excercise. I was also surprise that you saw very little wild life. good luck and enjoy

earlyriser26
01-30-2008, 09:50
I was surprised 1) That there was very little flat on the AT, you are either going up or down 2) How cold it could be in Maine in August and how hot it could be in Maine in August 3) That people in Maine don't know what a switchback is 4) You don't need all that junk you brought

Pennsylvania Rose
01-30-2008, 11:21
I was surprised at how much farther 10 miles seems when you're going up and down mountains and over PUDS on a rooty, rocky, leafy trail.

minnesotasmith
01-30-2008, 12:19
You need to conform to the trail. The trail doesn't need to conform to your expectations...

PS: The trail in Maine, NH and PA is fine - just the way it is - IMO.

You apparently think that the trail constructors and maintainers in eastern PA, NH, and ME shouldn't be expected to achieve the same level of demonstrated competence as ones in the South. Why is that? Don't you think people in those states are as intelligent and capable as those further South?

Frankly, that reminds me of proponents of eternal affirmative action, who obviously believe that certain minorities will never be capable of competing without cheating imposed from above. Talk about contempt for those people...

Lone Wolf
01-30-2008, 12:23
You apparently think that the trail constructors and maintainers in eastern PA, NH, and ME shouldn't be expected to achieve the same level of demonstrated competence as ones in the South. Why is that? Don't you think people in those states are as intelligent and capable as those further South?

Frankly, that reminds me of proponents of eternal affirmative action, who obviously believe that certain minorities will never be capable of competing without cheating imposed from above. Talk about contempt for those people...

differnt terrain and geology. besides, you slacked a lot

Tin Man
01-30-2008, 12:53
After I finished my first 50 mile section, tired, blistered, sore all over, never going to do this again - biggest surprise came a few days later when I started making plans for the next 50 miles. :)

dessertrat
01-30-2008, 12:58
It's all about different terrain and geology, as L. Wolf said. In the South, a lot of the trail goes over non-glacial regions, and some of it goes over paths that were improved for carts, etc., in the 19th century. In Maine, you're going over terrain created by glaciers, most of which has never been a trail before-- it is not a rehabbed logging path or woods road, nor is it a place where a pasture once existed, but has grown up again. It's raw wild. I admit it's rough, rough terrain, but it's not the trail crew's fault.

dessertrat
01-30-2008, 13:00
You apparently think that the trail constructors and maintainers in eastern PA, NH, and ME shouldn't be expected to achieve the same level of demonstrated competence as ones in the South. Why is that? Don't you think people in those states are as intelligent and capable as those further South?

Frankly, that reminds me of proponents of eternal affirmative action, who obviously believe that certain minorities will never be capable of competing without cheating imposed from above. Talk about contempt for those people...

Ayuh, ceptin' that most folks in Maine are white, Chummy. What's that say about affirmative action?;)

(Yes, I'm a Maine native).

Wise Old Owl
01-30-2008, 13:02
My surprise was the number of products that don't work for mosquitoes and no see ums :eek:
Deep Woods Off all the way.

Footslogger
01-30-2008, 13:03
I think what suprised me most were all the "false" summits. Just about the time you thought you were "there" you climbed over some rocks and saw that the actual summit was still a ways off.

'Slogger

GGS2
01-30-2008, 13:09
differnt terrain and geology. besides, you slacked a lot

Also different population density, different usage patterns, different climate, different levels of support, different vegetation, different wildlife. Everything's different, including the trail. Where's the surprise?

MOWGLI
01-30-2008, 13:11
You apparently think that the trail constructors and maintainers in eastern PA, NH, and ME shouldn't be expected to achieve the same level of demonstrated competence as ones in the South. Why is that? Don't you think people in those states are as intelligent and capable as those further South?

Frankly, that reminds me of proponents of eternal affirmative action, who obviously believe that certain minorities will never be capable of competing without cheating imposed from above. Talk about contempt for those people...

You fancy yourself a geologist, and yet you want to compare trail in Georgia with trail in PA, NH & ME? Ever hear of the Wisconsin Glaciation? :p

I have a suggestion. If you don't like the trail in PA, NH & ME, you have a few options;


Volunteer to help improve it
Send funding to help improve it - if you can't donate your time
Skip that part of the trail next time you're in the area - if it is so unpleasant
Button it if you're not interested in the above three choices. Nobody likes a whiner. :sun

Grampie
01-30-2008, 13:15
My biggest suprise was that I was having so much enjoyment just being out on the trail.:sun

jhomeresq
01-30-2008, 14:06
Hi all, thanks for all of your great comments on what surprised you. The funny thing - I was often surprised by what people wrote. I had no idea about the not hungry at the beginning thing, and it is good that my expectation as to just how far from civilization we'll be has been adjusted. I think I now understand better why the 100 mile wilderness is such a big deal. Keep these thoughts coming. I'm loving it!

Best,
John

Kerosene
01-30-2008, 18:05
I had done a lot of camping in scouts, but my first backpacking trip was the New Jersey section of the AT in 1973, so it's been awhile.

I clearly recall that I kept thinking about the various pains I was experiencing as I walked along lugging a 50-pound pack [ow, that ankle hurts...is that a hot spot?...my hands feel like they're swelling...oof, that was a big step up...my shoulders are killing me...wow, I almost turned an ankle...that branch just jumped out and scratched me!...]
Over my first few section hikes I was continually amazed at all of the sounds that deer can make. I actually thought they didn't make much of a sound!
Food tastes much better after a hard day of hiking, even the early freeze dried stuff, although my appetite also diminishes for the first week on the trail.
The New Jersey section of the AT is surprisingly pretty!

Pedaling Fool
01-30-2008, 18:14
The loudest animal in the woods is the grey squirrel. That suprised me.

rafe
01-30-2008, 18:55
I was surprised at how competitive people were about gear, food, miles, experiences. I couldn't get a word in conversations because people were so full of their own accomplishments, and wanted others to validate them.

That's very true of the starting herd at Springer. I'm not sure it ever disappears, but it does sort of dwindle after a month or two, as the herd moves north.

Lilred
01-30-2008, 19:20
Hi all, thanks for all of your great comments on what surprised you. The funny thing - I was often surprised by what people wrote. I had no idea about the not hungry at the beginning thing, and it is good that my expectation as to just how far from civilization we'll be has been adjusted. I think I now understand better why the 100 mile wilderness is such a big deal. Keep these thoughts coming. I'm loving it!

Best,
John

For a newbie thread, this is a pretty good one...:welcome

AlwaysHiking
01-30-2008, 19:21
Biggest three surprises:

I didn't really need all the **** the store told me I did.
There's always one more ridge to climb.
Being in the best shape of my life on a soccer field in no way prepared me for the workout I received backpacking.

shelterbuilder
01-30-2008, 19:51
1) Take a picture of an average-to-above-average section of the Trail in Georgia, Vermont, or Virginia, one with rocks mostly out of the Trail, switchbacked, brush cut back, etc.

2) Show it to bigshots WRT the AT in PA, NH, and ME.

3) Tell them, "Do you think you can make it like this, or do we need to find someone who can?"

4) If they can't hack bringing the Trail up to rural Southern standards, boot their clubs, and find ones that can.

Nothin' wrong with the trail in Pa., except that some of the rocks are gettin' a bit dull, but we'll be out with files later this Spring and make 'em nice and sharp again. And the sections we miss - we'll be sure to have lots of nice, sharp thorns for ya.

But seriously, by the time the trail was originally being routed (back in the 20's and 30's), the only land that was available in Pa. was land that was agriculturally unusable (ie - too rocky, and too inaccessable) and areas that had been timbered out twice and left to grow back up to be timbered again. Besides, rock-hopping is fun - it keeps you on your toes!:banana Like this little fella!

dessertrat
01-30-2008, 23:45
The loudest animal in the woods is the grey squirrel. That suprised me.

Don't you mean the red squirrel?

Darwin again
01-31-2008, 00:52
I was surprised at the loudness of the wind in the leafless trees in Georgia -- it sounded exactly like locomotives or jet engines, growing louder and louder then fading off again. I was surprised at how fast the Trail taught me to be mentally flexible and how inflexible thinkers usually didn't last very long out there. I was surprised by the random moments of unexpected beauty; also by how much raw hard work walking that Trail is.

This thread is full of hidden wisdom (aside from MS's hijack attempt!).

mweinstone
01-31-2008, 01:01
not being afraid of the dark one night peeing at 14 above port clinton at poccohaunas spring campsight. alone on maby my fith solo. allways deathly fearful of dark. holding my weiner,...right at that moment,....i realized that the old saying," king of the jungle " applyed to us. everything was scared of me! from that moment on, i wasnt scared of the dark.

ki0eh
01-31-2008, 09:50
This thread is full of hidden wisdom (aside from MS's hijack attempt!).

I asked him the question so I'm the one who started that excursion, after seeing what happened in a day away from the screen I'm a little bit sorry. I suppose I was surprised at the characterization of "unfinished," and I thank MS for explaining his observation.

I'm beginning to wonder how best to manage conflict at the edges between trail standards and motiviation to hike - knowing that the special places to many people, encountered on existing footpaths, sometimes don't meet the "standards." I wouldn't think I'm the first one to think of that.

I wonder if we need a new thread on trail standards or a pointer to an existing one - leaving this one to its discussion of experiences resulting from, um, temporary spatial displacement...

Roots
01-31-2008, 10:21
Thanks for starting this thread. It's been fun!! :)

rafe
01-31-2008, 10:27
Part of the allure of the trail is its variety. When I'm on a particularly steep, rocky or otherwise gnarly bit of trail, I try to remember that this will be a short-lived experience, and that there will be an "easy mile" (and maybe a nice view, or a nice spot to stop for a break) not too far ahead.

MOWGLI
01-31-2008, 10:32
A few additional things I learned. Mother Earth is actually quite soft. Especially when compared to shelter floors.

I also learned how pleasant a few additional miles can be after dinner. You can burn those calories - instead of laying in your tent with a belly full of food - and the evening is a great time for solitude, and for encountering wildlife.

NorthCountryWoods
01-31-2008, 10:46
Surprised how quick you get used to things:
Carrying a pack, smelling yourself, swarms of mosquitoes and black flies, eating dried everything, sore legs, iodine flavored water, sleeping on a 1/2 in pad, being wet all the time, etc....

Some things you adapt to fast, some take longer, but after a week you figured it out and nothing seems to be that bad.

Grampie
01-31-2008, 11:01
Surprised how quick you get used to things:
Carrying a pack, smelling yourself, swarms of mosquitoes and black flies, eating dried everything, sore legs, iodine flavored water, sleeping on a 1/2 in pad, being wet all the time, etc....

Some things you adapt to fast, some take longer, but after a week you figured it out and nothing seems to be that bad.

Yah! That's what makes it fun.:sun

MamaCat
01-31-2008, 11:13
I was very surprised at how hard it was to get up and do it again the second day! I was used to my day hikes and recovery. I bit off a little more than I should have for the 1st backpack. I went up the approach from the visitor center at ASP to Springer shelter. The next day, came back down via the hike inn trail loop off the approach. Sore muscles that second day made the next 10 miles very hard.

Mags
01-31-2008, 11:27
I was surprised at how much my life was changed.

Once I did the AT, living a normal lifestyle was out of the question.

I may have a full time job, pay rent and have the other trappings of a "normal" lifestyle...but there is an always an urge to again grab that pack, to go out and to spend time in the mountains, the woods or the desert.

I guess I was surprised at how much wanderlust was brought out. And I continued to be surprised at how this sense of wanderlust just gets worse with each trip.

As Steinbeck once said about himself "Once a bum, always a bum". :)

Dances with Mice
01-31-2008, 11:27
I was surprised at how quickly and deeply I learned to hate grouse.

Pedaling Fool
01-31-2008, 11:56
Don't you mean the red squirrel?
I swear those things were throwing things at me while hiking and everytime I stopped for a nature call it was as if they were schreeching at me not to do it there.:D

MOWGLI
01-31-2008, 11:58
I was surprised at how quickly and deeply I learned to hate grouse.

Tell us how you feel about Whip-poor-wills. :sun

Dances with Mice
01-31-2008, 12:27
Tell us how you feel about Whip-poor-wills. They're not bad boiled with some vegetable soup mix and a little pepper.

MOWGLI
01-31-2008, 12:44
They're not bad boiled with some vegetable soup mix and a little pepper.

I bet they're quieter that way. :rolleyes:

mudhead
01-31-2008, 12:44
I was surprised 1) That there was very little flat on the AT, you are either going up or down 2) How cold it could be in Maine in August and how hot it could be in Maine in August 3) That people in Maine don't know what a switchback is 4) You don't need all that junk you brought

I like this one!

Switchback=waste of time. You want to go to point A. I have heard a handrail is being funded by an anonymous donor.

mystic
01-31-2008, 14:20
Surprises:


Long distance hiking is much like self flagellation
Gravity is 2x greater for gear on-trail vs off-trail
The AT is not wilderness hiking
Caffiene withdrawal becomes quickly apparent on the trail
'Rain proof' is a only a marketing term
Hiking is an exercise in water management
(Vistas + Sense of Accomplishment) - (Pain + Discomfort) = Just barely worth it
Many hikers look like "Hiking Homeless"

stacy324
01-31-2008, 14:57
The extreme highs and lows on the trail, and how they are controlled by the weather – not the change in elevation.

scavenger
01-31-2008, 17:01
I was surprised at how quickly and deeply I learned to hate grouse.

hike with a slingshot

minnesotasmith
02-01-2008, 09:52
If you don't like the trail in PA, NH & ME, you have a few options;

Volunteer to help improve it
Send funding to help improve it - if you can't donate your time
Skip that part of the trail next time you're in the area - if it is so unpleasant
Button it if you're not interested in the above three choices.
=================================
Not at all true. Revelation for MOWGLI: I have both the right and the ability to make an informed and correct judgement about a section of trail that you do not agree with without being a trail maintainer.

Most hikers are not TMs. There is no overt or implied requirement (legal or customary) to be a TM to be able to hike the AT, to be observant about the AT, or to speak those observations aloud. My profession is one that helps make the society that built and maintains the AT possible. I also live too far from the AT to visit it from a weekend of pruning shears. (I do have some major trail-magic-from-a-distance in the works, that will become known starting later this month.)

Re the "impossibility" of the eastern PA, NH, or ME clubs doing trail construction and maintenance to the standards that GA, VA, and much of VT somehow manage:

1) Local geology doesn't make putting blazes on trees any harder, as long as there ARE trees (and there are trees on the vast majority of the AT in every state)

2) Local geology never forces rerouting off a perfectly good, excellent-condition low-rock trail onto rock jumbles (saw THAT in PA more than once)

3) Lots of rocks = lots of large, often FLAT rocks as potential building materials to make an even better trail than much of GA, say, has.

4) Even rock jumbles that go up hills can be switchbacked by zigzagging blazes. All that is needed is for the blaze-painters to be comfortable with the concept.

Eh, what's the use? Some people have learned their last new datum.

4eyedbuzzard
02-01-2008, 10:07
The loudest animal in the woods is the grey squirrel. That suprised me.


Don't you mean the red squirrel?


I'd vote for another little critter, the eastern screech owl. Maybe not any louder, but at 4 am on a dark night in the woods it can make grown men scared if they've never heard one before.

mudhead
02-01-2008, 11:06
Can't understand why anyone would want a switchback on a rockslide jumble.

Rocks are nice. They are not mud. Or peat. Or thick spruce.

Rocks are your friends. Be one with the rocks.

minnesotasmith
02-01-2008, 18:36
Some of us would like to look at something besides our feet when hiking trail sections with below-par construction/maintenance. I enjoy looking at hills, cliffs, fir lines, streams, waterfalls, flowers, birds, mammals, groves, you name it. I already know what my feet look like, so would rather be able to hike AND look around. What is so difficult for some people here to find empathizable about that?

mudhead
02-01-2008, 18:40
Yes. The neck crook. I wear glasses, too. But I like rocks. The gravel in between is for gawking.

I stare at my feet more in the desert.

GGS2
02-01-2008, 19:02
Some of us would like to look at something besides our feet when hiking trail sections with below-par construction/maintenance. I enjoy looking at hills, cliffs, fir lines, streams, waterfalls, flowers, birds, mammals, groves, you name it. I already know what my feet look like, so would rather be able to hike AND look around. What is so difficult for some people here to find empathizable about that?

So, let me ask you straight out. Do you want there to be an unbroken strip of graveled trail tread from GA>ME? Or paved, with a center-line to prevent collisions between NOBOs and SOBOs? Or are you just complaining that you have to look where you are going when there is no green tunnel to guide you unerringly? Or, more reasonably, do you just want the quality of the blazing to be more consistent? Just asking, on account of curiosity.

Tin Man
02-01-2008, 19:12
So, let me ask you straight out. Do you want there to be an unbroken strip of graveled trail tread from GA>ME? Or paved, with a center-line to prevent collisions between NOBOs and SOBOs?

Are your f...ing kidding me? The trail should be carpeted with pine needles!

Kirby
02-01-2008, 19:47
So, let me ask you straight out. Do you want there to be an unbroken strip of graveled trail tread from GA>ME? Or paved, with a center-line to prevent collisions between NOBOs and SOBOs? Or are you just complaining that you have to look where you are going when there is no green tunnel to guide you unerringly? Or, more reasonably, do you just want the quality of the blazing to be more consistent? Just asking, on account of curiosity.

It's called route 1.

Kirby

Lilred
02-01-2008, 19:50
Are your f...ing kidding me? The trail should be carpeted with pine needles!

and lined with pine cones.......

GGS2
02-01-2008, 20:04
and lined with pine cones.......

Yeah, you're right. My bad.

shelterbuilder
02-01-2008, 22:19
=================================
Not at all true. Revelation for MOWGLI: I have both the right and the ability to make an informed and correct judgement about a section of trail that you do not agree with without being a trail maintainer.

Most hikers are not TMs. There is no overt or implied requirement (legal or customary) to be a TM to be able to hike the AT, to be observant about the AT, or to speak those observations aloud. My profession is one that helps make the society that built and maintains the AT possible. I also live too far from the AT to visit it from a weekend of pruning shears. (I do have some major trail-magic-from-a-distance in the works, that will become known starting later this month.)

Re the "impossibility" of the eastern PA, NH, or ME clubs doing trail construction and maintenance to the standards that GA, VA, and much of VT somehow manage:

1) Local geology doesn't make putting blazes on trees any harder, as long as there ARE trees (and there are trees on the vast majority of the AT in every state)

2) Local geology never forces rerouting off a perfectly good, excellent-condition low-rock trail onto rock jumbles (saw THAT in PA more than once)

3) Lots of rocks = lots of large, often FLAT rocks as potential building materials to make an even better trail than much of GA, say, has.

4) Even rock jumbles that go up hills can be switchbacked by zigzagging blazes. All that is needed is for the blaze-painters to be comfortable with the concept.

Eh, what's the use? Some people have learned their last new datum.

You seem to forget that:
1.) Rock does not erode as quickly as soil, and so the rocky footpath does not need to be constantly relocated as does the footpath on soil, when the soil wears away into a 1 or 2 foot-deep gully:eek:;
2.) In places where there is constant footpath abuse from horses, mountain bikes, and ATV's (such as, for instance, Pa.), such abuse becomes more difficult over rocks and boulders.:-?

There is often an unseen method to the madness....

Darwin again
02-01-2008, 22:29
and lined with pine cones.......

...or rolls of toilet paper with safety orange gore-tex cozies to keep them clearly visible and dry.

Darwin again
02-01-2008, 22:37
3) Lots of rocks = lots of large, often FLAT rocks as potential building materials to make an even better trail than much of GA, say, has.


I remember perfectly clearly there was one section of Trail, about 30 feet long, I think somewhere within a day's hike past Eckville shelter, that had been flattened out like this. It looked kind of like a Roman road, done up Pennsyltucky style. I estimate just that one section of stones that had been neatly arranged to be slightly more flat probably took a couple of decades to accomplish. So, uh, I'd put a cork in my complainin' pie hole.

Darwin again
02-01-2008, 22:43
2.) In places where there is constant footpath abuse from horses, mountain bikes, and ATV's (such as, for instance, Pa.), such abuse becomes more difficult over rocks and boulders.

Uh, no. Patently untrue claim that these things are a problem; false premise.
The only place I ever saw any of those things was south of Rocky Top in GSMNP: a horse or two and not on the trail, only within sight of it.
Oh, ditto for Grayson Highlands.

Never saw ATVs or mountain bikes or horses ON the AT anywhere, anyplace, especially not in PA.

Darwin again
02-01-2008, 22:51
Some of us would like to look at something besides our feet when hiking trail sections with below-par construction/maintenance. I enjoy looking at hills, cliffs, fir lines, streams, waterfalls, flowers, birds, mammals, groves, you name it. I already know what my feet look like, so would rather be able to hike AND look around. What is so difficult for some people here to find empathizable about that?

I paid attention to my foot placement so I wouldn't fall down. That meant looking down, or using my peripheral vision. If I found something so fascinating that it needed a closer or longer examination, I slowed down or stopped, sometimes taking a picture. I saw plenty of stuff, too. At no time have I felt that people are or were lacking in empathy at my plight of having to pay attention to my footing to avoid falling down. :D

doggiebag
02-01-2008, 22:56
I was surprised in how much the mind can over-ride the bodies signal to slow down the first week out of Springer. The excitement of the adventure hobbled me for at least a week when I ignored the bodies signals to take it easy. Result: badly sprained ankles that took a week to heal - the pain was ... unreal. I've learned to listen to my body a little better since then.

shelterbuilder
02-01-2008, 23:05
Uh, no. Patently untrue claim that these things are a problem; false premise.
The only place I ever saw any of those things was south of Rocky Top in GSMNP: a horse or two and not on the trail, only within sight of it.
Oh, ditto for Grayson Highlands.

Never saw ATVs or mountain bikes or horses ON the AT anywhere, anyplace, especially not in PA.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Darwin, but the large, open area that's 30 feet in front of the Eagle's Nest shelter was an area where 2 horses were tied up overnight.

Horses and ATV's alternate as problems in a 5-7 year cycle on the section that I maintain near William Penn shelter.

The are around the Rausch Gap shelter is on State Game land, and we frequently have problems with horses and mountain bikes in this location.

If they can, they will...especially in Pa.:(

"Pennsylvania...Land of Entitlement":eek:

Lilred
02-02-2008, 10:09
...or rolls of toilet paper with safety orange gore-tex cozies to keep them clearly visible and dry.

Real hikers don't need no steeeenkin toilet paper. Whattya think the pine cones are for????:p

Lilred
02-02-2008, 10:16
Uh, no. Patently untrue claim that these things are a problem; false premise.
The only place I ever saw any of those things was south of Rocky Top in GSMNP: a horse or two and not on the trail, only within sight of it.
Oh, ditto for Grayson Highlands.

Never saw ATVs or mountain bikes or horses ON the AT anywhere, anyplace, especially not in PA.

horses are on the trail on the AT in the GSMNP.

I was surprised by the lack of etiquette used by horse people. Horse poop in the water source??? :mad:

rafe
02-02-2008, 10:21
horses are on the trail on the AT in the GSMNP.

I know for a fact that some kind of horse/pony/mule is/was used by trail maintainers in GSMNP. I was there at one of the shelters when they arrived with the critter all loaded up with lumber for a project.

notorius tic
02-02-2008, 10:34
I started Spinger with a healthy 30 pounds of food, thought it was 2 week vacation, from that point on the only thing that was real was the house on my back an the promises that i made to myself ? Still made it all the way.. just got smarter? an wizer started cutting my straps then had no DAY pack? Still enjoy the hole adventure "Live it like you own it Drive it like you stole it"

dessertrat
02-02-2008, 10:54
I swear those things were throwing things at me while hiking and everytime I stopped for a nature call it was as if they were schreeching at me not to do it there.:D

Red Squirrels compared to Grey Squirrels are like Cain and Abel, or Mr. Hyde and Dr. Jekyll.

dessertrat
02-02-2008, 11:00
I'd vote for another little critter, the eastern screech owl. Maybe not any louder, but at 4 am on a dark night in the woods it can make grown men scared if they've never heard one before.

I first heard one of those at 18, and you are right-- for a few seconds I almost ran, except that I had no idea which direction the noise had come from, then got hold of myself, and figured out it was an owl.

dessertrat
02-02-2008, 11:20
So, let me ask you straight out. Do you want there to be an unbroken strip of graveled trail tread from GA>ME? Or paved, with a center-line to prevent collisions between NOBOs and SOBOs? Or are you just complaining that you have to look where you are going when there is no green tunnel to guide you unerringly? Or, more reasonably, do you just want the quality of the blazing to be more consistent? Just asking, on account of curiosity.

I do understand that the trail in Maine is hard, having done some sections of it. I understand MSmith's complaints, but again, I think maintenance has less to do with how hard it is than geology and history. It simply is what it is. There are a very few areas, especially when going over rocky areas, where the blazes could be a bit better or newer, but never to the point where I lost the trail for more than two or three minutes.

And yes, in terms of switchbacks or ease of hiking, you sometimes feel as though it was blazed by someone who wanted to show off how fit he is, as there are some lungbusting climbs.

And I love a relatively easy walk like Maryland, SNP, parts of Pennsylvania and New Jersey, where I can sail along at 3 miles per hour without feeling like I'm about to fall over dead. Compared to those places, parts of Maine are shockingly difficult. If I could reach scenery and wildlife such as Maine has over trails as easy as Maryland, that's what I would choose. But it's an entirely different sort of hike, and something to consider when choosing where to hike.

However, what I have a hard time believing, MinnesotaSmith, is that you, after having thru hiked NOBO (something I have never done) are still complaining about the trail in Maine and how hard it was. I bitched about it somewhat, but I don't honestly expect anyone to change it for me, and I will no doubt go back soon, as the views and wildlife are worth the sweat. If someone asks me, I'll tell them Maine is hard, and not because of the elevations. It's hard because it is insanely rooty and rocky. Those roots are not going to disappear, and you can't exactly chop them up. Rocks likewise-- even if you removed them, every year the ground in that region freezes feet deep and heaves more of them up. I know this because I grew up on a farm in Maine, and no matter how many rocks you pull out of a garden, every year there are more, even if someone has been pulling rocks for a hundred years from the same ground, as was the case at my grandparents' house.

Your comments, it seems to me, could better be stated as "Maine should have more and better blazes and switchbacks." Everybody would understand that sentiment, and a lot of people would agree with it, rather than the unreasonable position you seem to be taking.

Pedaling Fool
02-02-2008, 11:27
I'll have to verify this during this year's hike, but the part of the trail that was the hardest for me to stay on was southwestern Virginia.

rafe
02-02-2008, 11:41
I'll have to verify this during this year's hike, but the part of the trail that was the hardest for me to stay on was southwestern Virginia.

Heh. You mean, like "urges to quit?". Hoo-boy, I sure know what you mean. SW Virginia is treacherous that way.

Pedaling Fool
02-02-2008, 11:47
It was pretty rocky, that was unexpected.

rafe
02-02-2008, 11:53
It was pretty rocky, that was unexpected.

What part of the AT isn't rocky? :D

Darwin again
02-02-2008, 14:11
Sorry to burst your bubble, Darwin, but the large, open area that's 30 feet in front of the Eagle's Nest shelter was an area where 2 horses were tied up overnight.

Horses and ATV's alternate as problems in a 5-7 year cycle on the section that I maintain near William Penn shelter.

The are around the Rausch Gap shelter is on State Game land, and we frequently have problems with horses and mountain bikes in this location.

If they can, they will...especially in Pa.:(

"Pennsylvania...Land of Entitlement":eek:

Cool. I never saw them, though. Keep us the good Trail Police work. I hear pungi pits work pretty good, too. :D

minnesotasmith
02-10-2008, 01:41
So, let me ask you straight out. Do you want there to be an unbroken strip of graveled trail tread from GA>ME? Or paved, with a center-line to prevent collisions between NOBOs and SOBOs? Or are you just complaining that you have to look where you are going when there is no green tunnel to guide you unerringly? Or, more reasonably, do you just want the quality of the blazing to be more consistent? Just asking, on account of curiosity.

I think that there should be standards about trail construction and maintenance to which the various trail clubs are held, or at least have to show that they are making real efforts to move towards attaining. Compliance with these standards would be independently verified frequently.

Examples would include:

1) Frequency of repainting blazes, and how far apart they are located. I happen to believe that annual repainting, and the next blaze visible in good weather with the naked eye from the previous blaze, are appropriate. Too many clubs can't seem to do this simple thing, and need direct oversight in this matter (i.e., ATC rep going out with blaze repainters) until they prove able for 3+ successive years.

2) That brush should be cut back far enough that it doesn't encroach the trail before the next time brushcutting is done. The less frequent the brushcutting, the further back it needs to be cut each time.

3) There should be standards for maximum acceptable slope grade, as I understand the PCT has. I'm not saying the standards should be the same, but certainly 70% is excessive (Mahoosuc Arm and North Carter would seriously need real switchbacking to become compliant. There are sections of the Trail that quite simply are not safe to hike; before Carlo Col is an example... 25% seems a fair maximum allowed grade IMO. The goal would be for hiking clear trail (when no blowdowns are present) in good weather to not require use of hands.

4) There should be accurate figures and maps devised, kept current, and publicized on where and how much of each club's area involves a) boulder fields and b) bogs (latter defined by me as sections of trail wet when it has not rained in 3+ days in nonwinter weather).

5) Trail clubs should not be permitted to reroute any more trail onto boulder fields or bogs unless those sections have first been made fully complete. Aside from blazes, boulder fields should have large rocks laid flat or removed in an 18" path, bogs should be graveled or have puncheons installed from end to end, trail not following streams (Roan Mtn. and near Kincora both had areas that flunked this simple rule) and beaver dams dynamited. Certainly, nonvolunteer ridgerunners on trail sections noncompliant WRT bogs should normally carry 40 pound bags of gravel away from trailheads to put in unfixed bog strips, until such time as these sections are made acceptable.

Further, there should be a schedule (even if it covers 20 years) for bringing ALL bog- and boulder-field portions of a trail club's section of the AT into compliance. Trail clubs would have their progress on improving their out-of-compliance percentages directly monitored, with consequences for falling behind.

6) Only hiking clubs are appropriate IMO for trail oversight. The Blue Mountain Eagle Climbing Club should be replaced ASAP by a more appropriate organization.

7) The AT has been brought down to too low an elevation IMO in NY. This results in hotter summer temperatures for hikers along the Trail there, and chronic trail-area water shortages such that trail angels are routinely needed to supply water caches. The Trail ideally should follow more closely the higher ridges between the Shenandoah and VT. It thus should go just West of Winchester out of the Shenandoah, head towards the Adirondacks in NE NY State, and then to VT.

8) Large, elevated, durable, vandalism-resistant signs indicating some basic rules for shelter areas (no groups over 5 EVER, no paid groups (i.e., Doylies), no dogs, no illegal chemicals, no car campers) should be installed in shelter areas.

9) There should be the goal of installing normal (style and policy as exist along most of the AT) trail shelters at least every 10 miles along the entire AT (no exceptions allowed for higher-than-mere-humans AMC), ideally eventually every 8 miles. Shelter-dislikers should come to understand they are to simply not camp there, and not campaign against them any longer; HYOH, and all that.

Does that answer your question at least in part?

dessertrat
02-10-2008, 02:07
3) There should be standards for maximum acceptable slope grade, as I understand the PCT has. I'm not saying the standards should be the same, but certainly 70% is excessive (Mahoosuc Arm and North Carter would seriously need real switchbacking to become compliant. There are sections of the Trail that quite simply are not safe to hike; before Carlo Col is an example... 25% seems a fair maximum allowed grade IMO. The goal would be for hiking clear trail (when no blowdowns are present) in good weather to not require use of hands.



Further, there should be a schedule (even if it covers 20 years) for bringing ALL bog- and boulder-field portions of a trail club's section of the AT into compliance. Trail clubs would have their progress on improving their out-of-compliance percentages directly monitored, with consequences for falling behind.

6) Only hiking clubs are appropriate IMO for trail oversight. The Blue Mountain Eagle Climbing Club should be replaced ASAP by a more appropriate organization.

7) The AT has been brought down to too low an elevation IMO in NY. This results in hotter summer temperatures for hikers along the Trail there, and chronic trail-area water shortages such that trail angels are routinely needed to supply water caches. The Trail ideally should follow more closely the higher ridges between the Shenandoah and VT. It thus should go just West of Winchester out of the Shenandoah, head towards the Adirondacks in NE NY State, and then to VT.

8) Large, elevated, durable, vandalism-resistant signs indicating some basic rules for shelter areas (no groups over 5 EVER, no paid groups (i.e., Doylies), no dogs, no illegal chemicals, no car campers) should be installed in shelter areas.

9) There should be the goal of installing normal (style and policy as exist along most of the AT) trail shelters at least every 10 miles along the entire AT (no exceptions allowed for higher-than-mere-humans AMC), ideally eventually every 8 miles. Shelter-dislikers should come to understand they are to simply not camp there, and not campaign against them any longer; HYOH, and all that.

Does that answer your question at least in part?

You seem to want the AT to be like I-95. It's incredible. Maximum slope grade? Shelters required every X miles?

I have a feeling you are joking, but you spent a long time writing your post for a joke. Mandating switchbacks rather than going over a certain steepness? Don't you think that's a bit extreme, given your old signature line from Robert Service? You now want to make it into the functional equivalent of a bike path? I have said before that I am sympathetic to how hard it is in places, and have done my share of cussing at the trail in Maine, but to expect what you think should be done is a bit much, in my opinion.

GGS2
02-10-2008, 03:16
... Does that answer your question at least in part?

Thank you for such a detailed reply, and yes, I'm afraid that does answer my question, in part. But I am rather appalled by the answer. I guess I'll have to respond point by point as well.


I think that there should be standards about trail construction and maintenance to which the various trail clubs are held, or at least have to show that they are making real efforts to move towards attaining. Compliance with these standards would be independently verified frequently.This is already in place, to some degree, I think. The AT maintainers' handbook is the de facto standard for a number of trails, including the Bruce Trail in Ontario, although they now publish their own manual. As to compliance verification, I suspect that this is an onerous duty to lay upon the already rather overburdened voluntary maintainers. I suspect that even full time parks employees would be hard pressed to enforce such a standard. My experience is that only certain heavy use areas of parks are consistently maintained to the standard you posit, and at a high cost. What you require would probably require user fees and more overhead to enforce the fees. You are effectively requiring a bureaucracy.


1) Frequency of repainting blazes, and how far apart they are located. I happen to believe that annual repainting, and the next blaze visible in good weather with the naked eye from the previous blaze, are appropriate. Too many clubs can't seem to do this simple thing, and need direct oversight in this matter (i.e., ATC rep going out with blaze repainters) until they prove able for 3+ successive years.The annual repainting is probably overkill, but the visibility standard you posit is probably less onerous than is appropriate in some sections, such as on the balds where whiteouts and fog are risks. I think it impossible to ensure that all appropriate blazes will be in place at all times. If more effort is required here, it is probably in replacing damaged and missing blazes and signs. Most blazes will last well over a year, and will be obscured mainly by diameter growth on living trees, or blow-downs, vandalism or vegetation overgrowth before they fade. The most important blazes are at trail junctions, such as branches, reroutes, road crossings and areas where the trail is not evident for some reason. Marking on road sections is very important from the point of view of frustration alleviation, as it is easy to miss a trail-head, and difficult to verify unless road blazes are frequent.


2) That brush should be cut back far enough that it doesn't encroach the trail before the next time brush cutting is done. The less frequent the brush cutting, the further back it needs to be cut each time.This is a more complex point than it seems. Normally, brush cutting is an annual task, unless the section has a great deal of fast growth which can be mown. This is a technical question which deserves more attention than I can give it. Some sections are in wilderness, where machinery cannot be used, and so forth. Over-clearing is not desirable where it may lead to erosion or other problems, including excess sunlight and subsequent herbaceous overgrowth, eg. I think that the major difficulty of overgrowth is obscuration of trail markers including blazes. It is highly undesirable to increase the maintainers' workloads simply to ease the way for hikers in respect of a years woody plant growth.


3) There should be standards for maximum acceptable slope grade, as I understand the PCT has. I'm not saying the standards should be the same, but certainly 70% is excessive (Mahoosuc Arm and North Carter would seriously need real switchbacking to become compliant. There are sections of the Trail that quite simply are not safe to hike; before Carlo Col is an example... 25% seems a fair maximum allowed grade IMO. The goal would be for hiking clear trail (when no blowdowns are present) in good weather to not require use of hands.This is where you are asking to alter the whole character of the trail. This is a standard appropriate to a park in which picnickers are catered to, or to a facility everywhere open to wheelchair access, not to a back country trail system. I am unfamiliar with the US legislation on this point, but I presume that such trails as the AT are exempted from equal access in the back country or overland portions of the system. What you require would impose a very heavy burden in cost and effort for the volunteers who maintain and build the trail. The standard of the western trails is particular to the stock requirements of a multi-use trail, and is inappropriate, IMO, to a pedestrian trail such as the AT is over most of its length. IMO, the whole point of a back country, pedestrian trail is that it is unsuitable to other uses by reason of the difficulty of its route and passage.


4) There should be accurate figures and maps devised, kept current, and publicized on where and how much of each club's area involves a) boulder fields and b) bogs (latter defined by me as sections of trail wet when it has not rained in 3+ days in non-winter weather).I feel sure that as a person who is a) an engineer, and b) who has engaged in trail maintenance, you are aware of the cost of these and subsequent measures. I consider it a feat that the annual changes are encoded annually on the maps and guidebooks as it stands. As to the definition and characterization of trail beds, I think the well defined sections are already well known and reported in the literature such as WB. I am also aware that many of the wet conditions are seasonal and transient, and that boulder fields and rocky trail is part of the general character of the trail. Would you want to exclude the Katahdin climb on that criterion? I hope not. Boggy sections are somewhat transient, and are a major load on the maintainers. As to blowing up beaver dams, I am certain that this would be illegal over much of the trail, and undesirable to boot. I consider bogs and beaver dams to be back country attractions. The pose difficulties, but they should not be bulldozed on that account.


5) Trail clubs should not be permitted to reroute any more trail onto boulder fields or bogs unless those sections have first been made fully complete. Aside from blazes, boulder fields should have large rocks laid flat or removed in an 18" path, bogs should be graveled or have puncheons installed from end to end, trail not following streams (Roan Mtn. and near Kincora both had areas that flunked this simple rule) and beaver dams dynamited. Certainly, nonvolunteer ridgerunners on trail sections noncompliant WRT bogs should normally carry 40 pound bags of gravel away from trailheads to put in unfixed bog strips, until such time as these sections are made acceptable.

Further, there should be a schedule (even if it covers 20 years) for bringing ALL bog- and boulder-field portions of a trail club's section of the AT into compliance. Trail clubs would have their progress on improving their out-of-compliance percentages directly monitored, with consequences for falling behind.Again, this is a proposal to radically alter the character, financing and maintenance strategy of the trail. This would require contracted maintenance and user fees, and the result would not be the semi-wild trail that the AT is now, and should remain.


6) Only hiking clubs are appropriate IMO for trail oversight. The Blue Mountain Eagle Climbing Club should be replaced ASAP by a more appropriate organization.I think this is an irrelevant point. If a climbing club is capable of doing the work, and is willing, then there is no reason to prejudice them on the basis of their primary charter. If they are failing to do the job, perhaps they require assistance. But this is political.


7) The AT has been brought down to too low an elevation IMO in NY. This results in hotter summer temperatures for hikers along the Trail there, and chronic trail-area water shortages such that trail angels are routinely needed to supply water caches. The Trail ideally should follow more closely the higher ridges between the Shenandoah and VT. It thus should go just West of Winchester out of the Shenandoah, head towards the Adirondacks in NE NY State, and then to VT.General rerouting is a matter well beyond maintenance. If you wish to propose an alternate route of such magnitude, I expect you are ready to do the organization and fund raising necessary to bring it about. Perhaps you should consult the BMT or one of the northern trail alliances. This would be generally considered a new trail. The AT is where it is by reason of its original charter and purpose. I doubt you can change that at this late date.


8) Large, elevated, durable, vandalism-resistant signs indicating some basic rules for shelter areas (no groups over 5 EVER, no paid groups (i.e., Doylies), no dogs, no illegal chemicals, no car campers) should be installed in shelter areas.To be enforced by whom? The parks already have such rules, and some personnel to enforce them, but I do not think this is generally the case over the length of the trail. In any case, I suspect that there are general laws to cover much of this, but very few enforcers.


9) There should be the goal of installing normal (style and policy as exist along most of the AT) trail shelters at least every 10 miles along the entire AT (no exceptions allowed for higher-than-mere-humans AMC), ideally eventually every 8 miles. Shelter-dislikers should come to understand they are to simply not camp there, and not campaign against them any longer; HYOH, and all that.Once again, this is to change the entire character of the trail, and to greatly increase the maintenance load. I think that shelters exist where they do largely as a matter of user load and the ability of local groups to build and maintain them. As we know, unsupervised shelters within easy reach of trail heads or other access are attractive nuisances which endanger hikers and expose them to risks which are undesirable. Other shelter and hut spacings are determined by other considerations, like degree of use, funding and so on. I would not place such a requirement without a careful ways and means assessment, as well as an environmental and trail impact assessment.

It seems to me that your vision of the trail differs importantly from that of many other trail stakeholders. You should probably consult them in the various venues where they gather, including the trail conference member organizations and parks departments. If this is an attempt to gather support from the WB community, well and good, but I expect you should do it more openly and diplomatically, perhaps soliciting views on the various points before laying down the law.

GGS2
02-10-2008, 03:24
Forgive me for going on, but I realized I overlooked the question of switchbacks. It is my understanding that switchbacks exist where they do in large part as erosion control measures, rather than to restrict maximum trail grade. I don't think it reasonable to require them on the basis of hiker preference for a gradual slope. In any case, I don't imagine this preference is general. The same goes for rock and boulder sections. It is true that some hikers have difficulty in such sections, but I think that very few are sufficiently deterred as to make this a show stopper. Anyone who proposes to back pack 2000 miles must have a certain minimum level of physical ability. Apparently the existing trail is about right in this respect.

IMO.

Tin Man
02-10-2008, 07:39
You seem to want the AT to be like I-95. It's incredible. Maximum slope grade? Shelters required every X miles?

I have a feeling you are joking, but you spent a long time writing your post for a joke. Mandating switchbacks rather than going over a certain steepness? Don't you think that's a bit extreme, given your old signature line from Robert Service? You now want to make it into the functional equivalent of a bike path? I have said before that I am sympathetic to how hard it is in places, and have done my share of cussing at the trail in Maine, but to expect what you think should be done is a bit much, in my opinion.

I don't think MS is joking. I think he wants to shave 1.25 days off his next thru. We should see that he is elected next chairperson of the ATC and see how he does with his program.

rafe
02-10-2008, 10:09
Forgive me for going on, but I realized I overlooked the question of switchbacks...

I've given more than a bit of thought to these matters over the years. I'm sure many or most other habitual AT hikers have also. A few thoughts and observations.

"Old" trails that used to follow the fall line can be rerouted to use switchbacks. This has been done in several places, but is not always possible, practical, or desirable. (I chatted with a trail crew working such a relo near Tinker Cliffs this summer.)

Properly graded trails can make all the difference in the world in terms of one's enjoyment. Shenandoah is, in my mind, the most striking example. The verticals are quite respectable, but the gentle grades make the climbs and descents easy.

The AT is nothing without its gnarly climbs, roller coasters, PUDs and MUDs. That's the nature of the beast and I learned long ago that complaining about that was to totally miss the point. (Unfortunately, I had half the trail under my feet before that epiphany struck me.)

This is not a plea for replacing all of the AT's hard climbs with switchbacks, by any means. I like the trail as it is. I'm impressed by the balance that's been struck. There's an AT section for just about any skill or fitness level. It just kinda sucks a bit when the trail's level doesn't match what you're feeling at the moment. ;)

Lilred
02-10-2008, 11:37
I think that there should be standards about trail construction and maintenance to which the various trail clubs are held, or at least have to show that they are making real efforts to move towards attaining. Compliance with these standards would be independently verified frequently.

Examples would include:

1) Frequency of repainting blazes, and how far apart they are located. I happen to believe that annual repainting, and the next blaze visible in good weather with the naked eye from the previous blaze, are appropriate. Too many clubs can't seem to do this simple thing, and need direct oversight in this matter (i.e., ATC rep going out with blaze repainters) until they prove able for 3+ successive years.

2) That brush should be cut back far enough that it doesn't encroach the trail before the next time brushcutting is done. The less frequent the brushcutting, the further back it needs to be cut each time.

3) There should be standards for maximum acceptable slope grade, as I understand the PCT has. I'm not saying the standards should be the same, but certainly 70% is excessive (Mahoosuc Arm and North Carter would seriously need real switchbacking to become compliant. There are sections of the Trail that quite simply are not safe to hike; before Carlo Col is an example... 25% seems a fair maximum allowed grade IMO. The goal would be for hiking clear trail (when no blowdowns are present) in good weather to not require use of hands.

4) There should be accurate figures and maps devised, kept current, and publicized on where and how much of each club's area involves a) boulder fields and b) bogs (latter defined by me as sections of trail wet when it has not rained in 3+ days in nonwinter weather).

5) Trail clubs should not be permitted to reroute any more trail onto boulder fields or bogs unless those sections have first been made fully complete. Aside from blazes, boulder fields should have large rocks laid flat or removed in an 18" path, bogs should be graveled or have puncheons installed from end to end, trail not following streams (Roan Mtn. and near Kincora both had areas that flunked this simple rule) and beaver dams dynamited. Certainly, nonvolunteer ridgerunners on trail sections noncompliant WRT bogs should normally carry 40 pound bags of gravel away from trailheads to put in unfixed bog strips, until such time as these sections are made acceptable.

Further, there should be a schedule (even if it covers 20 years) for bringing ALL bog- and boulder-field portions of a trail club's section of the AT into compliance. Trail clubs would have their progress on improving their out-of-compliance percentages directly monitored, with consequences for falling behind.

6) Only hiking clubs are appropriate IMO for trail oversight. The Blue Mountain Eagle Climbing Club should be replaced ASAP by a more appropriate organization.

7) The AT has been brought down to too low an elevation IMO in NY. This results in hotter summer temperatures for hikers along the Trail there, and chronic trail-area water shortages such that trail angels are routinely needed to supply water caches. The Trail ideally should follow more closely the higher ridges between the Shenandoah and VT. It thus should go just West of Winchester out of the Shenandoah, head towards the Adirondacks in NE NY State, and then to VT.

8) Large, elevated, durable, vandalism-resistant signs indicating some basic rules for shelter areas (no groups over 5 EVER, no paid groups (i.e., Doylies), no dogs, no illegal chemicals, no car campers) should be installed in shelter areas.

9) There should be the goal of installing normal (style and policy as exist along most of the AT) trail shelters at least every 10 miles along the entire AT (no exceptions allowed for higher-than-mere-humans AMC), ideally eventually every 8 miles. Shelter-dislikers should come to understand they are to simply not camp there, and not campaign against them any longer; HYOH, and all that.

Does that answer your question at least in part?


I'm curious M.S., how much trail maintenance have you done??

Wilson
02-10-2008, 11:44
Red Squirrels are called "Boomers" for a reason.

shelterbuilder
02-10-2008, 11:44
Please allow me to respond to a few points that Minnesotasmith believes he has made. There is no particular order to these.

First, as a member of the Blue Mountain Eagle Climbing Club, allow me to set the record straight: we are, first, last, and always, a TRAIL MAINTENANCE AND HIKING CLUB! We were founded in 1916 by a group of Reading, Pa. businessmen and community leaders who held (no, cherished) the concept of preserving and enjoying the outdoors, and who, once a year, would gather at the BLUE MOUNTAIN to CLIMB to the summit and view an EAGLE's nest, hence the name. The climb was then (and is now) no more strenuous than any other climb from the valley floor to the ridgeline of the Blue Mountain in Pa. No equipment other than a strudy pair of shoes is required. As an incorporated entity, we have no desire to change our name just because some folks might misunderstand our purpose. It was BMECC who scouted, cleared, blazed and opened (officially in 1937) the section of the AT from the Susquehanna River to the Lehigh River. BMECC has, over the years, given up portions of its assigned trail when newer clubs have sprung up and asked for a section to maintain. And BMECC's leaders in the past had the foresight to acquire land along the top of the Blue Mountain with the sole purpose of preserving that land as a public park - something that very few, if any, of the other trail maintaining clubs had the presence of mind - or the resources - to accomplish. And all of this, with fewer than 200 active members! I believe that BMECC has EARNED the right to call itself anything it wants! (IMHO)

As GGS2 pointed out, the de facto standard for trail maintenance is the AT Maintainer's Handbook. I own, and regularly refer to, three books: Trail Building and Maintenance; Backcountry Facilities: Design and Maintenance; and the Appalachian Trail Fieldbook. I suggest that you buy these books and read through them - they are the manuals that are in common usage. That having been said, it should be noted that conditions in the field sometimes call for deviating from the plan. For instance, on the section of trail that I maintain, I sometimes have trouble with horses or ATV's. I will sometimes be required to leave LARGE blow-downs in place (either on the ground, or at head-level, repsectively) to discourage the passage of ATV's or horses. This is largely my call as a section maintainer, who's knowledge of the area and the problem's recurrance make such deviations permissable. If you have to duck down or scramble over a blow-down, I'm sorry, but sometimes it's for the greater good.

Frequency of blazing is, again, covered in the manuals. I'm sure that no one wants to see a constant string of white blazes as far as the eye can see in either direction; neither do we want to get lost looking for the next blaze. In some areas, the blazed trees die and the bark falls off - we are having this problem now in Pa. with many of the oak trees - and since the volunteers are just that (volunteers), it is not possible to hold a paycheck over their heads and say, "now you get out there and touch up those blazes this week, or else". Volunteers donate their time out of the goodness of their hearts, not from the emptiness of their wallets. And it's the same for brush cutting - the standards are listed in the manuals. And BMECC's volunteers are no diffeent than any other club's volunteers - we try to get out several times a year and cut everything back (the standard is, I believe, 4' x 8'), but conditions in the field sometimes mean changing the standards to fit the conditions. And just because I clear the trail this week, doesn't mean that it will be clear next week when you come through.

Maximum acceptable slope grade and switchbacks - switchbacks are used primarily as erosion control measures, NOT to make the trail easier for anyone. In Pa., WE HAVE ROCKS! This is not a news flash for anyone. In rock fields, the main concern is to route the trail over rocks that will not move and throw a hiker down the mountain. On grades with soil, we do use switchbacks where necessary. Many times, we find that hikers will cut the corners off of switchbacks to shorten the distance - and there's only so much that we can do to prevent this.

As for accurate figures and maps on geophysical features - call the ATC in Harper's Ferry - you'll be surprised to learn that such an inventory already exists, as well as 5 year and 10 year plans for action. And please don't go dynamiting beaver dams or filling in bogs or parts of bogs without first having the appropriate environmental studies completed first. As for the elevation profile of the trail - it is what it is!

Signage at shelters is a fine idea - I just wish for 2 things - signs that cannot be vandalized beyond readability, and the paid LEO manpower to enforce the regulations as posted. Get me those 2 things, and then we'll talk. Distances between shelters is supposed to be a day's walk - anywhere from 6 to 15 miles. But before you build a shelter, you MUST have a sanitiary facility on-site (don't forget to get all of the permits for this first). For both structures, materials importation can be a real nightmare, especially in very remote sites.

I could go on, but I'd just bore everyone, so I'll shut up now.

MOWGLI
02-10-2008, 11:50
I could go on, but I'd just bore everyone, so I'll shut up now.

It's unfortunate that the individual who prompted your response doesn't grasp that simple concept. ;)

shelterbuilder
02-10-2008, 12:02
sometimes there is eloquence in silence;)

Nomad94
02-10-2008, 15:27
sometimes there is eloquence in silence;)

Shelterbuilder (& any other volunteers)...

As someone who regularly uses the AT in PA, thank you for your time and effort in maintaining the trail. I would not be able to enjoy my hobby in anywhere near the same fashion w/o the efforts of those whose work truly enables the AT.

As for the original topic of this thread: ;)

Finding how subdued my appetite was at first, only to find that I was simply experiencing the calm before the storm.

dessertrat
02-10-2008, 15:40
It's unfortunate that the individual who prompted your response doesn't grasp that simple concept. ;)

I don't understand how someone who has thru-hiked the whole trail can feel that way. It does show that he had an extraordinary amount of determination in completing his hike.

shelterbuilder
02-10-2008, 22:02
Shelterbuilder (& any other volunteers)...
As someone who regularly uses the AT in PA, thank you for your time and effort in maintaining the trail. I would not be able to enjoy my hobby in anywhere near the same fashion w/o the efforts of those whose work truly enables the AT....

Nomad94 - It truly has been (and continues to be) my pleasure. When I started my hiking career, I had no idea that the trail was maintained by volunteers, but over the years, I derived a great deal of pleasure from hiking. When I finally discovered the volunteer aspect of the trail, I decided that I wanted to give something back - to "pay it forward", as it were. And at the time that I joined BMECC, the opportunity to pay it forward in a big way just sort of fell into my lap. But even after having a hand in bringing 2 shelter sites on-line, I still have lots of fun just taking the bow saw and pruners out for a walk in the woods (I did that between sessions on WhiteBlaze today!) and clearing trail, or "laying into" a massive blowdown tangle of limbs and grapevines. There are some days when, after picking up shelter trash or trying to re-establish a switchback trail for the umpteenth time, you wonder if it's worth the effort. Then, someone you've never met walks up to you and says, "thanks", and you realize - yeah, it's worth it.


"You're welcome.":sun

Kirby
02-10-2008, 22:54
We can just make I-95 an official alternate route, sort of like what people want with the BMT through the Smokies.

Kirby

Grampie
02-11-2008, 11:50
I think that there should be standards about trail construction and maintenance to which the various trail clubs are held, or at least have to show that they are making real efforts to move towards attaining. Compliance with these standards would be independently verified frequently.

Examples would include:

1) Frequency of repainting blazes, and how far apart they are located. I happen to believe that annual repainting, and the next blaze visible in good weather with the naked eye from the previous blaze, are appropriate. Too many clubs can't seem to do this simple thing, and need direct oversight in this matter (i.e., ATC rep going out with blaze repainters) until they prove able for 3+ successive years.

2) That brush should be cut back far enough that it doesn't encroach the trail before the next time brushcutting is done. The less frequent the brushcutting, the further back it needs to be cut each time.

3) There should be standards for maximum acceptable slope grade, as I understand the PCT has. I'm not saying the standards should be the same, but certainly 70% is excessive (Mahoosuc Arm and North Carter would seriously need real switchbacking to become compliant. There are sections of the Trail that quite simply are not safe to hike; before Carlo Col is an example... 25% seems a fair maximum allowed grade IMO. The goal would be for hiking clear trail (when no blowdowns are present) in good weather to not require use of hands.

4) There should be accurate figures and maps devised, kept current, and publicized on where and how much of each club's area involves a) boulder fields and b) bogs (latter defined by me as sections of trail wet when it has not rained in 3+ days in nonwinter weather).

5) Trail clubs should not be permitted to reroute any more trail onto boulder fields or bogs unless those sections have first been made fully complete. Aside from blazes, boulder fields should have large rocks laid flat or removed in an 18" path, bogs should be graveled or have puncheons installed from end to end, trail not following streams (Roan Mtn. and near Kincora both had areas that flunked this simple rule) and beaver dams dynamited. Certainly, nonvolunteer ridgerunners on trail sections noncompliant WRT bogs should normally carry 40 pound bags of gravel away from trailheads to put in unfixed bog strips, until such time as these sections are made acceptable.

Further, there should be a schedule (even if it covers 20 years) for bringing ALL bog- and boulder-field portions of a trail club's section of the AT into compliance. Trail clubs would have their progress on improving their out-of-compliance percentages directly monitored, with consequences for falling behind.

6) Only hiking clubs are appropriate IMO for trail oversight. The Blue Mountain Eagle Climbing Club should be replaced ASAP by a more appropriate organization.

7) The AT has been brought down to too low an elevation IMO in NY. This results in hotter summer temperatures for hikers along the Trail there, and chronic trail-area water shortages such that trail angels are routinely needed to supply water caches. The Trail ideally should follow more closely the higher ridges between the Shenandoah and VT. It thus should go just West of Winchester out of the Shenandoah, head towards the Adirondacks in NE NY State, and then to VT.

8) Large, elevated, durable, vandalism-resistant signs indicating some basic rules for shelter areas (no groups over 5 EVER, no paid groups (i.e., Doylies), no dogs, no illegal chemicals, no car campers) should be installed in shelter areas.

9) There should be the goal of installing normal (style and policy as exist along most of the AT) trail shelters at least every 10 miles along the entire AT (no exceptions allowed for higher-than-mere-humans AMC), ideally eventually every 8 miles. Shelter-dislikers should come to understand they are to simply not camp there, and not campaign against them any longer; HYOH, and all that.

Does that answer your question at least in part?

"O" to live in a perfect world. The only reason that this "perfect world" does not exist is that there isn't enough volunteers to do all your suggested work.
:cool:
Or should we just turn the AT over to the Government to run and control it. I for one hope that this never happens.
Let's all be content with what we have and hope that the folks that now control it, ATC, can keep up the wonderfull job that they do.:sun

shelterbuilder
02-11-2008, 20:48
"O" to live in a perfect world. The only reason that this "perfect world" does not exist is that there isn't enough volunteers to do all your suggested work.
:cool:
Or should we just turn the AT over to the Government to run and control it. I for one hope that this never happens.
Let's all be content with what we have and hope that the folks that now control it, ATC, can keep up the wonderfull job that they do.:sun

It was years ago, and I can't remember who told me this, but I recall hearing someone say that one of the things that made the AT so very special was the fact that, even though there is general oversight by the ATC and NPS, the LOCAL maintaining clubs had a free hand in solving LOCAL problems with LOCAL solutions. We can borrow ideas freely from one area to another, but as long as we are not violating any of the mandated guidelines, we are free to create regional solutions. And this means that every section of the trail has the potential to be uniquely "itself" - a part of the whole, but an individual part nevertheless.

If I want a "cookie-cutter" trail, I can go to any city park and walk on macadamed paths. But I hike on the AT because of its roughness, its diversity of terrain, its challenge. God save us from the cookie-cutters!:D