Boy Scouts on the AT

[Don H]

I would like to hear from those of you who have met Boy Scouts on the trail. Have your experiences been positive or negative? Please be as specific as possible as to date, place and situation.

[max patch]

I've hiked on the AT for approx 30 years, most of my non-thru miles have been in Georgia, and in EVERY instance of coming into contact with a BS Troop the boys have exhibited acceptable behavior. I have no complaints about the BS.

[CrumbSnatcher]

met a boy scout troop on one of my thru's. really enjoyed thier company. i carried their troop pin with me all the way to katahdin. sent it back with a summit/finish photo. they were siked. later on they did a presentation in front of all the troops in georgia, about the trail,thru-hikers, and how well i took care of my dog(bear). no such thing as a bad boy scout is there? maybe bad troop leaders? or possibly just not enough of them.(leaders)

[Dances with Mice]

I've hiked on the AT for approx 30 years, most of my non-thru miles have been in Georgia, and in EVERY instance of coming into contact with a BS Troop the boys have exhibited acceptable behavior. I have no complaints about the BS.I'll second that and extend it to include all the trails in GA, which the AT is a small part, and state park campsites.

[Bearpaw]

I am an Eagle Scout and have been an assistant scoutmaster with two different troops. So I admit that I tend to be pro-scout.

The great majority of the times I encountered scouts on the AT, they were pleasant, and generally well-behaved. However, the AT is a place that is tough for any large group to blend into without cramping someone's style. Usually they wound up camping near shelters, though usually they did not actually stay in the shelters. But this definitely left a very visible amount of congestion. I think perhaps this is the biggest issue with scouts on the AT.

However, in a thread a while back, Lone Wolf pointed out that this is not so different from GA and NC in March and April when thru-hike numbers reach peak productions. I think there's something to this. The issue with scouts is that every body knows the group as "another scout troop" pretty much on sight.

It's easy to pick out a scout troop. There's always a show-off, a whiner, a scared new kid, and a pyromaniac.:-? Usually multiples of the pyro. :eek: And a lot of young people having an unusually great time. :banana

[shelterbuilder]

I would like to hear from those of you who have met Boy Scouts on the trail. Have your experiences been positive or negative? Please be as specific as possible as to date, place and situation.

My experiences have been both positive and negative, and in both instances, the leadership (or lack thereof) plays a key role. On both hikes and on work projects, I have run across very well-mannered troops that have been a real joy to hike behind (or, in several instances, work with on MY projects on a spur-of-the-moment). I have also encountered troops with a "minimum" leadership compliment (2 adults ONLY) and "vastly" more than the 10-person maximum group size. (I realize that this is often the result of the parents' unwillingness to get involved with the troop and/or the parents' feeling uncomfortable in the outdoors, but that's another issue.) Usually in this "minimum/maximum" situation, the leaders have their hands full, and cannot maintain adequate supervision of the boys.

As a shelter maintainer, I have also encountered multiple Scout troops camping at a single shelter site (sometimes for the entire weekend). Whether or not they use the shelter, this places a great strain on the site resources (toilet, water, and wood) and diminishes the "wildness" of the area for the duration of the time which the troops are there. (Sometimes I'm told, "We're getting ready for Philmont"! I can only conclude from this that there is no communication between troops within a geographical area prior to leaving for these training hikes.)

I was an ASM for a number of years, and I know how difficult it can be to get parental involvement for outdoor events like backpacking trips, but I personally believe that the perception of a "good" troop or a "bad" troop hinges on having adequate numbers of leaders who are comfortable in the woods and enjoy showing the boys "how-to-do-it".

[Phreak]

I wish more adults on the trail were as well behaved and courteous as the scouts I've encountered.

I have ran into dozens of groups along the GA AT and it has always been a very pleasant experience.

A group of us were in Pisgah last year (Shining Rock area) and there was a large group of scouts there. A couple of people in our group complained about the noise from the scouts, but I honestly had no issues. They were being a little rowdy and horsing around, but what the hell, they're kids and were having a good time in the woods.

[littlelaurel59]

I was an ASM for a number of years, and I know how difficult it can be to get parental involvement for outdoor events like backpacking trips, but I personally believe that the perception of a "good" troop or a "bad" troop hinges on having adequate numbers of leaders who are comfortable in the woods and enjoy showing the boys "how-to-do-it".

I agree: leadership is key.

I led a group of scouts on a 50 miler (Dickey Gap to Damascus) last summer. We (the leaders/dads) made sure the boys understood and followed the 7 principles of LNT (as well as a group can), especially the part about respecting others. We did not camp in or near shelters, but used other established campsites along the way. I like to think we were one of the "good" troops.

Interestingly, on 2 days near the end of our trek, we played leap frog along the trail with another youth group (Not scouts, as it was co-ed but not old enough to be venturers). There were several in that group that would sing loudly (shouted really) as they hiked. All the boys commented about how unpleasant it was, and vowed never to disturb others in such a way. I could have strangled the leaders- I wish now that I had voiced my displeasure at their lack of supervision.

[Lilred]

I was hiking towards blue mountain shelter. Rain Man had left me dinner, a snickers and a note for me. Every person I passed told me of the note and the treats waiting for me when I got there. The last group I passed were boy scouts, not 15 minutes from my reaching the shelter. When I got there, no dinner, no snickers. All stolen. Nice boy scouts. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/argh.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

[Lilred]

I was hiking towards Blue mountain shelter. Rain Man had left me dinner and a snickers bar with a note to me. Passed several hikers on the way, all telling me of the surprise that awaited me, so I hiked on in great spirit, anticipating my treat. The last group I passed were boy scouts not 15 minutes before I got to the shelter. When I got there, no dinner, no snickers. They stole them.

It wasn't until some scouts shared their water with me after going over Wautauga dam that I changed my mind about scouts, but I still remember that last kid in line before I got to blue mountain shelter, looking at me with guilt written all over his face.

[Lilred]

dangit having trouble posting again, y'all may see a double post oops sorry

[Jimmers]

My only issues with scouts always begin and end with their leaders. If they teach their kids how to act, give them good training, and then make sure they follow that training, then the kids are going to be great. But if the leaders haven't prepared the kids properly, don't monitor their behavior, and don't correct them....well, just think about what happens in a classroom when the teacher leaves it unattended. No one notices the good kids doing their work while the usual suspects are shooting pencils into the ceiling tiles.
(not that I would know anything about that:rolleyes:)

[Skidsteer]

I would like to hear from those of you who have met Boy Scouts on the trail. Have your experiences been positive or negative? Please be as specific as possible as to date, place and situation.

Boy Scouts are great. They taste like chicken.


Seriously, no problems so far. If you don't stay in shelters, pretty much everyone gets along.

[Gaiter]

i think there is another thread similar to this one

i say you can always look at the leader and know how the rest of the troop will be, its the same for any group.
i've meet some great bs's but also the rudest group i ever meet were half boy scouts half mens group.

[jesse]

When I got there, no dinner, no snickers. All stolen. Nice boy scouts.

shouldn't leave anything on the trail. Bad Rain Man.

[Lilred]

what about trail magic/????


He left it in the pvc pipe that held the register. Good Rain Man, bad boy scout

[Phlashlite]

During our 2007 thru hike we had both positive and negative experiences with scouts. The most negative was at Blood Mountain where the scouts annouced they were using the shelter and others were not welcome there. the scouts would not move to let people read the register or to see the view from the front of the shelter.

The other terrible experience was near Dalton where the scouts came into the shelter area late at night, annouced they were taking the shelter, then proceeded to cook after dark, I didn't know boiling water for Ramen noodles qualified for a merit badge. When ask to quite down, well after dark the scouts only laughed and read "their journal" entries out loud.

The remainder of our experiences were great. Scouts are only as good as their leaders. We enjoyed talking with the scouts and hearing how the leaders help the scouts enjoy the hiking experience.

We also had both positive and negative experiences with church groups and camp groups.

One thing we noticed was how some groups really pushed the kids and seemed to be instilling dislike for the outdoors rather than enjoyment and the sense of leaving the camp a better place.

[Pedaling Fool]

Boy scouts are fine, but they need to learn not to feed the wildlife. Got more food from scouts than any other group.;)

[Tin Man]

I am an Asst. Scout Master and am planning some ten mile hikes this year along the AT in NY and CT for hiking merit badge. We will camp off trail to leave the dirty shelters to hikers who don't know any better. ;) I will work hard to be one of the good leaders. :)

[Lone Wolf]

I would like to hear from those of you who have met Boy Scouts on the trail. Have your experiences been positive or negative? Please be as specific as possible as to date, place and situation.

i've been on the AT 21 years, met tons of scouts. 99.9% of the boys i've met have been great. it's the "leaders' that sucked

[Blissful]

The few I have met I could tell some of the boys did not have the right gear for the conditions and that depends on leaders with outdoor skills telling them what to bring. The troop we met just off the trail at Fahnestock State Park in NY were a great group - my hubby did a short program for them and they gave us all their breakfast food as they were leaving to go home.
But actually we met hardly any Scouts on the trail last year. There were a ton At Gettysburg, though. And we met more college outdoor groups in northern NH and Maine than anything, wow. They were everywhere.

[shelterbuilder]

I am an Asst. Scout Master and am planning some ten mile hikes this year along the AT in NY and CT for hiking merit badge. We will camp off trail to leave the dirty shelters to hikers who don't know any better. ;) I will work hard to be one of the good leaders. :)

Good luck and KUDOS to you. I know how hard it can be sometimes.:)

[Tennessee Viking]

I would like to hear from those of you who have met Boy Scouts on the trail. Have your experiences been positive or negative? Please be as specific as possible as to date, place and situation.
I met a small troop at Roaring Fork Shelter north of Max Patch. Their group does a 50 mile section every year.

Then Roan Mtn (Carvers down to 19E) gets a ton of weekenders, school kids, and scout troops. Its advised for big groups not to hog the shelters. But I ended up getting left out on the grounds, because a thousand kids decided to invade the shelter. They didnt even hike out. The walked the forest road out.

[Thoughtful Owl]

I am a scoutmaster of a Boy Scout Troop here in VA. We do some trips on the AT but those trips are by invitation only; and the scouts that go know what I expected out of them. Myself and one of our assistants will take only 8 scouts out at a time, for a max of 10 people. We never stay in a shelter and we and we do try to use an established camp sites. The scouts have a respect for nature & others out on the trail and work hard to follow the LNT principles. I would hope that if you would meet up with us you would find it a pleasurable experience, as i'm sure the scouts would of meeting and having an opportunity converse with a through hiker.

TO

[Tin Man]

The few I have met I could tell some of the boys did not have the right gear for the conditions and that depends on leaders with outdoor skills telling them what to bring. The troop we met just off the trail at Fahnestock State Park in NY were a great group - my hubby did a short program for them and they gave us all their breakfast food as they were leaving to go home.
But actually we met hardly any Scouts on the trail last year. There were a ton At Gettysburg, though. And we met more college outdoor groups in northern NH and Maine than anything, wow. They were everywhere.

Durland Scout Reservation (formerly Clear Lake) is a large scout camp just east of the AT near Fahnestock. I imagine many troops hike from the camp out to the AT like we plan to do in April.

I have not run into college groups in NH, just 13-14 year old preppies! They invaded the AT campsites where my brother and I camped. Apparently, this one leader takes a group to Eliza Brook every Columbus Day weekend and then dayhikes them up the Kinsmans. They seemed spoiled, but basically OK. We ran into another group at Jeffers Brook in May last year. This group was cold, wet and sniveling like there was no tomorrow.

[Tin Man]

Good luck and KUDOS to you. I know how hard it can be sometimes.:)

It is a difficult balancing act between teaching them how to take care of themselves and giving them time to be boys. :)

[fiddlehead]

Boy scouts are what made many of us get into hiking in the first place.

Sure some leaders are better than others. But the important thing is to be out there.

I say the more the merrier.
If you don't like em, camp away from them. what's the big deal?

[Don H]

I posted this question after reading on another thread about the bad experience a hiker had with a scout group in a shelter in Maryland. As a Scoutmaster I was concerened about some of the comments made. Also I've noticed many negative posts about scouts in the past. It got me thinking that maybe someone should try to survey the hiking community and find out what information needs to get out to the scout leaders so that they can better share the trail with others. What better place to do that than on my favorite site. Keep the posts comming, I'm taking notes!

[Thoughtful Owl]

I posted this question after reading on another thread about the bad experience a hiker had with a scout group in a shelter in Maryland. As a Scoutmaster I was concerened about some of the comments made. Also I've noticed many negative posts about scouts in the past. It got me thinking that maybe someone should try to survey the hiking community and find out what information needs to get out to the scout leaders so that they can better share the trail with others. What better place to do that than on my favorite site. Keep the posts comming, I'm taking notes!

I am with Don on this. We try to instruct the scouts based upon our own experience, but maybe we are missing something. I will also agree with some of the post here in regards to leadership. I can remember a unit being asked to leave an event, not because of the youth members but because of the adult leadership. My thought: I hoped they offending leadership was removed from their position because they were a piss poor example and do not represent the scouting program.

As Don said, "Keep the posts comming, I'm taking notes!"

TO

[RITBlake]

I would like to hear from those of you who have met Boy Scouts on the trail. Have your experiences been positive or negative? Please be as specific as possible as to date, place and situation.

They generally have huge packs and too much equipment.

[BR360]

In almost 40 years of backpacking in the Carolinas, Georgia, Tenn & Virginia, the only time I've ever seen Scouts misbehaving / behaving rudely is when there wasn't adequate adult supervision. Same could be said for church groups, summer camps, college students.

I've seen much worse behavior much more often from groups of drunken adults and uneducated late-adolescent redneck vandals.

Scouts are SUPPOSED to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverent. It's the Scout Law.

Knowing that Scouting is supposed to be teaching citizenship and virtue allows you to take the teacher-role (if you are an adult). Rudeness is a teachable moment....

[BR360]

I think all Scouts should be well-versed in the LNT principles, and the understanding that the wilderness is a place that has more freedoms, but also more responsibilities.

A great Eagle Project could be a Mass-Market education of all Scout Troops in the "footprint" of the AT about use of the shelters, trail courtesy, etc. along with a laminated "Take-Along" LNT Checklist.

[Don H]

Last October I was finishing up a section hike about an hour from the DWG parking lot where I was meeting my ride when I came across a scout troop taking a break. I stopped and we talked for awhile, everyone was very polite as I would expect. They were a great group of kids, really into hiking and asked me how I make due with such a small and light pack. I showed them some of my home made gear which they thought was really cool. I inquired as to their unit number and where they were from and then we parted ways. An short time later I met my ride and had a very nice story to tell him, you see he is the Council Vice Chair for the Council that oversees all BSA units in a several county area in northeastern PA. My friend knew the SM since they were from the same neighborhood.

[earlyriser26]

Over almost 40 years of hiking the AT I've met many groups of scouts. Almost all were positive experiences. A few times the groups were a little large (more than 10) and counted on using the shelter after arriving close to dark. I always use a tent so it did not cause a problem for me, but they need to carry tents if they are going to be in such large groups. One of my best friends and hiking partners is an Eagle Scout. One trip he forgot his tent poles, stove, and water pump. I asked him the scouts changed their motto from "Be prepared" to "have someone else carry it".

[SouthMark]

i've been on the AT 21 years, met tons of scouts. 99.9% of the boys i've met have been great. it's the "leaders' that sucked

As an ex-scoutmaster I can agree with LW, a troop is only as good as the adult leadership. My own council used to sponsor a 50 miler on the AT each summer and doing so were sponsoring TOO LARGE a groups (one year there were 28).

[cannonball]

I was hiking towards blue mountain shelter. Rain Man had left me dinner, a snickers and a note for me. Every person I passed told me of the note and the treats waiting for me when I got there. The last group I passed were boy scouts, not 15 minutes from my reaching the shelter. When I got there, no dinner, no snickers. All stolen. Nice boy scouts. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/argh.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)
Did you witness the scouts jacking your stuff or are you just assuming they did?

[cannonball]

As far as the leadership, which I agree is the key to any boy scout activity, it begins far before the scouts hit the trail. As a long time scouter I would not take a kid on any outing that was'nt properly outfitted and behaved.

[mudhead]

They generally have huge packs and too much equipment.

That is allowed.

I think. Don't have a manual.

[envirodiver]

I agree that the Leaders are generally the cause of problems that others have with scouts on the trail. Having groups that are too large and overwhelm campsites water sources, etc.

But, almost all have been good experiences, which shows that there are people out there trying to teach the kids the right way. Kudos to them.

[Grampie]

June 24, 2001---While on my thru I spent the night at Bearfence Mt. Hut in the SNP with a bunch of Boy Scouts. It was a memorable experience. The group of 15 scouts and 6 leaders, from New Post News VA were doing a 50 mile hike. Everyone behaved very well. The leaders ran the operation like a military one.:sun

[jesse]

The leaders ran the operation like a military one.In that case, the adult leaders totally miss the point. Boy Scouts are suppose to be run by the boys. The leaders are only there to advise, and assure safety.

Boys who are old enough to backpack 50 miles are old enough to lead their troop/patrols.

[gold bond]

I was hiking towards blue mountain shelter. Rain Man had left me dinner, a snickers and a note for me. Every person I passed told me of the note and the treats waiting for me when I got there. The last group I passed were boy scouts, not 15 minutes from my reaching the shelter. When I got there, no dinner, no snickers. All stolen. Nice boy scouts. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/argh.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

As a ASM I can explain exactly what hahahappened....First thing, the 13th rule of scouting is, " A scout is always hungry"! Second of all the scouts that did that envoked the 'ol ever popular, "finders keepers, losers weepers" rule, then they were simply following the "leave no candy bar behind" law of the woods.
Sorry that this happened and I tell ya what...I will replace your old, lost snicker bar with a brand new one if you email me the address that you want it sent!

[jesse]

In almost 40 years of backpacking in the Carolinas, Georgia, Tenn & Virginia, the only time I've ever seen Scouts misbehaving / behaving rudely is when there wasn't adequate adult supervision. Same could be said for church groups, summer camps, college students.

College students are adults

[mudhead]

College students are adults

Some.......

[Grampie]

In that case, the adult leaders totally miss the point. Boy Scouts are suppose to be run by the boys. The leaders are only there to advise, and assure safety.

Boys who are old enough to backpack 50 miles are old enough to lead their troop/patrols.

What I ment as a military operation was; The group leaders were all very experienced and had run these trips several times. When it became meal time all the scouts had tasks to do. From prep to clean-up. when it was time to eat the all lined up orderly, waiting their turn. All the scouts were well behaved at all times.
Several times, off the trail, I have experienced boys in this age group. Most of the time there is always a lot of what I will call fooling around. Pushing, shouting etc.
Some of the millitary could have been because some of the adults were military personal. One was a sub. commander. I thought that it was a good thing for these scouts to experience what they were.

[BlackCloud]

I am an Eagle Scout. I loved the Boy Scouts, and think there is no better program for the development of young men.

THat being said, I hate Boy Scouts; they're the worst. Just aweful. Worse even.

[gold bond]

I am an Eagle Scout. I loved the Boy Scouts, and think there is no better program for the development of young men.

THat being said, I hate Boy Scouts; they're the worst. Just aweful. Worse even.

How many people are in there? Can I talk to the first guy he seemed nicer!

[cannonball]

I am an Eagle Scout. I loved the Boy Scouts, and think there is no better program for the development of young men.

THat being said, I hate Boy Scouts; they're the worst. Just aweful. Worse even.
The only bad thing about Boy Scouts is the Boys.

[Blue Jay]

All of the scouts I have come across have been great. I'm always glad to see them. The best part is if i come across them as they are leaving the trail. They always have too much, high quality food. If they are going south and I am going north, I go south for a day and it's a pure Yogi. I don't have to ask, just give them a few stories the night before and you get more food than you can carry. I love the BSA.

[The Weasel]

There are some inevitable problems, and I say this as a Scoutmaster for over 30 years.

First, there tend to be two kinds of Scout groups on trails: One group, usually a weekend, will have younger (12-13 year olds) Scouts either separately hiking from the 14+ group or together. Younger boys tend to act, well, like boys. They are extremely excited, get a little crazy (especially after sugar from trail mix or whatever), and immature, because, well, they're not yet mature. They run, they laugh, they complain (loudly!), they "need" ("Mr. Smith, my pack is falling apart!") and they get rowdy. This is a good thing for them, but it can irritate older hikers. And that can happen at night, especially, when kids are still excited and talking among each other when others want to sleep.

As to those (leaving aside the very, very rare damaging/seriously disruptive behavior), as a pretty veteran backpacker, my comment to others is, "I'm sorry you were disturbed, but consider it a contribution to encouraging the next generation of people to love backpacking. Criticism most often comes from those who either haven't yet had kids or are a ways past having them, and (in either case) don't have much experience hiking with that age group.

The older group of Scouts - usually 14+ - tend to be doing longer distances for a week, and have a different attitude. First, they are much more into sophisticated gear (yeah, gearheads are a novelty on the trail), and second they are learning independence. That leads to sometimes doing things 'apart' from the group, and that can appear troubling to others.

As to shelter presence, I've never seek Scouts elbow others who were already present in a shelter/site (unlike "grownups" who sometimes do), and Scouts are, as part of their basic beliefs, incredibly welcoming and helpful, since they want to know more about other hikers. But just as other hikers have no entitlement to a shelter (absent reservations such as in GSMNP), Scouts are entitled to use a shelter/site if they have arrived first. I've never known a Scout group, by the way, not to honor the 'always room for one more in a storm' rule.

Remember. They're kids. Good ones, too.

TW

[jesse]

Scouts are not suppose to share sleeping quarters with adults. If any adult is sleeping in a shelter, It is the duty of the Scout Master to move the boys into tents.

[tazie]

There are some inevitable problems, and I say this as a Scoutmaster for over 30 years.

First, there tend to be two kinds of Scout groups on trails: One group, usually a weekend, will have younger (12-13 year olds) Scouts either separately hiking from the 14+ group or together. Younger boys tend to act, well, like boys. They are extremely excited, get a little crazy (especially after sugar from trail mix or whatever), and immature, because, well, they're not yet mature. They run, they laugh, they complain (loudly!), they "need" ("Mr. Smith, my pack is falling apart!") and they get rowdy. This is a good thing for them, but it can irritate older hikers. And that can happen at night, especially, when kids are still excited and talking among each other when others want to sleep.

As to those (leaving aside the very, very rare damaging/seriously disruptive behavior), as a pretty veteran backpacker, my comment to others is, "I'm sorry you were disturbed, but consider it a contribution to encouraging the next generation of people to love backpacking. Criticism most often comes from those who either haven't yet had kids or are a ways past having them, and (in either case) don't have much experience hiking with that age group.

The older group of Scouts - usually 14+ - tend to be doing longer distances for a week, and have a different attitude. First, they are much more into sophisticated gear (yeah, gearheads are a novelty on the trail), and second they are learning independence. That leads to sometimes doing things 'apart' from the group, and that can appear troubling to others.

As to shelter presence, I've never seek Scouts elbow others who were already present in a shelter/site (unlike "grownups" who sometimes do), and Scouts are, as part of their basic beliefs, incredibly welcoming and helpful, since they want to know more about other hikers. But just as other hikers have no entitlement to a shelter (absent reservations such as in GSMNP), Scouts are entitled to use a shelter/site if they have arrived first. I've never known a Scout group, by the way, not to honor the 'always room for one more in a storm' rule.

Remember. They're kids. Good ones, too.

TW

Ditto. Excellent post, you covered it. And a BIG thanks to your service to the Scouts-- especially the "encouraging the next generation of people to love backpacking". Well-said.

[Foyt20]

Scouts are not suppose to share sleeping quarters with adults. If any adult is sleeping in a shelter, It is the duty of the Scout Master to move the boys into tents.

Excellent point.

As a scout for 11+ years, and then becoming an ASM, i have seen both sides of the coin. But i think in general 99% of BSA troops (And Venture Crews, which both of my sisters were members of) are some of the better young adults in our society. Not to say that there are not "bad apples in the bunch" and also not to say that I have not had my share of moments that i am not to proud of on camping trips, but we live and we learn.

I am currently contemplating joining a troop so as to be an Adult leader, but am still debating my options on that. Does anyone have any thoughts?

[gold bond]

Excellent point.

As a scout for 11+ years, and then becoming an ASM, i have seen both sides of the coin. But i think in general 99% of BSA troops (And Venture Crews, which both of my sisters were members of) are some of the better young adults in our society. Not to say that there are not "bad apples in the bunch" and also not to say that I have not had my share of moments that i am not to proud of on camping trips, but we live and we learn.

I am currently contemplating joining a troop so as to be an Adult leader, but am still debating my options on that. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Go for it..."it's only one hour a week!!"

[Thoughtful Owl]

As far as the leadership, which I agree is the key to any boy scout activity, it begins far before the scouts hit the trail. As a long time scouter I would not take a kid on any outing that was'nt properly outfitted and behaved.

This is why our trips out to the AT are by invitation only from me, the Scoutmaster. We spend a good bit of time and energy educating the scouts during meetings and shake down hikes, and then when we head out and are at the trail head the scouts are again reminded of LNT principles and of what is expected of them. Other hikers I have met on the trail have had nothing but good comments to make about the scouts. I have been known to call the parents of scouts who have misbehaved at an activity, to come and pick their scout up. The scouts have learned that I am a loving & caring person, but will not tolerate poor behavior or disrepect of others.

[Thoughtful Owl]

The only bad thing about Boy Scouts is the Boys.

I would have to disagree. I would say the only bad thing about Boy Scouts are their bad leaders. I have been associated with the scouting program for over 40 years now and still enjoy to this day.

[envirodiver]

As to those (leaving aside the very, very rare damaging/seriously disruptive behavior), as a pretty veteran backpacker, my comment to others is, "I'm sorry you were disturbed, but consider it a contribution to encouraging the next generation of people to love backpacking. Criticism most often comes from those who either haven't yet had kids or are a ways past having them, and (in either case) don't have much experience hiking with that age group.
TW


This is why our trips out to the AT are by invitation only from me, the Scoutmaster. We spend a good bit of time and energy educating the scouts during meetings and shake down hikes, and then when we head out and are at the trail head the scouts are again reminded of LNT principles and of what is expected of them. Other hikers I have met on the trail have had nothing but good comments to make about the scouts. I have been known to call the parents of scouts who have misbehaved at an activity, to come and pick their scout up. The scouts have learned that I am a loving & caring person, but will not tolerate poor behavior or disrepect of others.

As someone that doesn't feel the need to be incovenienced by poorly behaved kids and leaders with a "oh they're just that age and get over it" attitude, I like Thoughtful Owls approach better. Kids are never to young to learn to respect others.

[Thoughtful Owl]

Excellent point.

As a scout for 11+ years, and then becoming an ASM, i have seen both sides of the coin. But i think in general 99% of BSA troops (And Venture Crews, which both of my sisters were members of) are some of the better young adults in our society. Not to say that there are not "bad apples in the bunch" and also not to say that I have not had my share of moments that i am not to proud of on camping trips, but we live and we learn.

I am currently contemplating joining a troop so as to be an Adult leader, but am still debating my options on that. Does anyone have any thoughts?

I am a firm believer in giving back to a program that has given so much to me. And the question usually comes up at Eagle Board of Reviews, to the Eagle candidate, "What or how can you give back to scouting?" There are so many ways you can give back to the best youth program in the world. Unit leadership, merit badge counselor, unit commissioner, etc. etc.
Don't waste to much time debating the options. Get involved and if you find the position you are in is not your cup of tea, try wearing a different hat.

[fonsie]

There are some inevitable problems, and I say this as a Scoutmaster for over 30 years.

First, there tend to be two kinds of Scout groups on trails: One group, usually a weekend, will have younger (12-13 year olds) Scouts either separately hiking from the 14+ group or together. Younger boys tend to act, well, like boys. They are extremely excited, get a little crazy (especially after sugar from trail mix or whatever), and immature, because, well, they're not yet mature. They run, they laugh, they complain (loudly!), they "need" ("Mr. Smith, my pack is falling apart!") and they get rowdy. This is a good thing for them, but it can irritate older hikers. And that can happen at night, especially, when kids are still excited and talking among each other when others want to sleep.

As to those (leaving aside the very, very rare damaging/seriously disruptive behavior), as a pretty veteran backpacker, my comment to others is, "I'm sorry you were disturbed, but consider it a contribution to encouraging the next generation of people to love backpacking. Criticism most often comes from those who either haven't yet had kids or are a ways past having them, and (in either case) don't have much experience hiking with that age group.

The older group of Scouts - usually 14+ - tend to be doing longer distances for a week, and have a different attitude. First, they are much more into sophisticated gear (yeah, gearheads are a novelty on the trail), and second they are learning independence. That leads to sometimes doing things 'apart' from the group, and that can appear troubling to others.

As to shelter presence, I've never seek Scouts elbow others who were already present in a shelter/site (unlike "grownups" who sometimes do), and Scouts are, as part of their basic beliefs, incredibly welcoming and helpful, since they want to know more about other hikers. But just as other hikers have no entitlement to a shelter (absent reservations such as in GSMNP), Scouts are entitled to use a shelter/site if they have arrived first. I've never known a Scout group, by the way, not to honor the 'always room for one more in a storm' rule.

Remember. They're kids. Good ones, too.

TW

Most of the shelters i"ve seen say "Larger than 10 in a group, that includes boy scouts, should camp". I've met a couple good troops, but I seen more than bad than good since 2006, and its all been in Md for some odd reason. I dont expect to have the shelter but I expect to have someone share the picnic table so I can sit down and eat after putting miles in. I been on the C&O doing long bike trips and seen a few troops out there. come on I just want a corner to eat. So on cycling trips I carry a small light weight chair on my bike. I seen scouts hold tables for people at the Backpackers campground in MD. It was proboly the 2nd weekand or first one in May 2006. They all were parked at that parking lot and when the thru hikers were getting there they told them to move on the tables were reserved. Come on you kno, then I had to yell over there to them because at 1 in the morning to shut up people are trying to sleep. The parents and leaders were all drinking being load. I mean come on, one troop I met from VA Beach were the best troop I met, so courtious. Then again they were all teenagers. Yea 85% of the scouts I met were rude and inconciterate, load, and would show up from the roadlate at night to wake the hikers up.

[cannonball]

I would have to disagree. I would say the only bad thing about Boy Scouts are their bad leaders. I have been associated with the scouting program for over 40 years now and still enjoy to this day.
A sarcastic council wide joke born during a wood badge course:rolleyes:

[dessertrat]

I am an Eagle Scout. I loved the Boy Scouts, and think there is no better program for the development of young men.

THat being said, I hate Boy Scouts; they're the worst. Just aweful. Worse even.

Right. If the boy scout didn't need his character built a little, he wouldn't be in the boy scouts. They're supposed to be getting instructed and maturing, not to be perfect.

[olyroller]

Generally speaking the scout groups I have come across have been quite respectful (or at least as respectful as a group of youngsters can be). My one point of contention would be group size. No matter how respectful any one individual may be, it is virtually impossible for larger groups to have limited impact, both on the environment and noise levels. If the troops have sufficient adults they should consider breaking up into smaller groups. Nobody likes it when they have to move on later in the day because the shelter/tenting area has been taken over by large group, be it boy scouts, summer camps, hoods in the woods, etc.

[LIhikers]

This past summer my wife and I spent 50 miles playing tag with a scout troop. We wound up spending the nights in the same places but during they day we'd pass them and they'd pass us, back and forth as the day wore on. Got to know some of the boys and some of the dads by name and had great conversations with most of them.

[Tin Man]

Generally speaking the scout groups I have come across have been quite respectful (or at least as respectful as a group of youngsters can be). My one point of contention would be group size. No matter how respectful any one individual may be, it is virtually impossible for larger groups to have limited impact, both on the environment and noise levels. If the troops have sufficient adults they should consider breaking up into smaller groups. Nobody likes it when they have to move on later in the day because the shelter/tenting area has been taken over by large group, be it boy scouts, summer camps, hoods in the woods, etc.

This is precisely why I have our Troop camp off trail. There are several options for youth group camping in NY and CT where we go that avoids taking over AT campsites.

[The Weasel]

As someone that doesn't feel the need to be incovenienced by poorly behaved kids and leaders with a "oh they're just that age and get over it" attitude, I like Thoughtful Owls approach better. Kids are never to young to learn to respect others.

Env, it's not a 'respect' thing. The Trail isn't "church," and in a place that seems to have debates about whether mooning is OK, whether drugs should be hidden, and about sex among those who aren't married, it seems to me that realizing that some kids get rowdy sometimes - not always, but now and then - sort of is an opportunity for toleration. There is little discourtesy by Scouts - on the trail or elsewhere - but yeah, sometimes they're kids, and the out-of-doors is an acceptable place to let them be that way.

TW

[Bearpaw]

Scouts are not suppose to share sleeping quarters with adults. If any adult is sleeping in a shelter, It is the duty of the Scout Master to move the boys into tents.

Point well taken, though there is the one exception: Father and son are allowed to share the same tent/shelter, etc.

But I agree with the concerns you list. There may be an exception I can think of in the Smokies, where ALL the members of the unit would be required to stay in the shelter - in this case, the adult supervision presence would negate the ruling. But scouts shouldn't be left with strangers in a shelter while the adult leadership is in tents, unable to observe them.

[TN_Hiker]

Point well taken, though there is the one exception: Father and son are allowed to share the same tent/shelter, etc.

But I agree with the concerns you list. There may be an exception I can think of in the Smokies, where ALL the members of the unit would be required to stay in the shelter - in this case, the adult supervision presence would negate the ruling. But scouts shouldn't be left with strangers in a shelter while the adult leadership is in tents, unable to observe them.


The youth protection guidelines are very clear and has no exceptions adults and boys do not share sleeping arrangements. Applying that rule would dictate an unit could never "do" the Smokies. That is BSA rules in order to "cover their behind". Having said that, I agree totally with Bearpaw...you don't have a choice in the Smokies. The important thing would maintain two deep leadership at ALL times for everyones protection.

[HIKER7s]

I Have been associated with scouts almost my whole life. Unfortunately, I threw the Eagle away to do my thru hike right after HS. (I was LIFE for 3 years and the project was done). I have no regrets on that. ;)

Being a leader and trying to get the troop into backpacking has been my major task. I am involved with a troop where the soutmaster (I am an ASM)
nixes almost everytrip I attempt to set up. He wont and cant hike and he see this as a "takeover" attempt apparently.

When we do go, I'll have briefed the boys that if we get to a shelter (if thats the case) and its empty its ok to put their gear in it however IF ANY other non-scout hikers arrive they get dibs on the shelter.

IMO anyway, I try to get them to do the tents anyway. Sometimes it has to be, they experience the mice circus on them before they get my point about the shelters.

Sometimes we hike with another unit. We have been successful and respectful of others and the trail in that we put together 4-6 person "trail crews" and coordinate the faster groups and slower ones to meet at major places on the map.

Knowing and living by standards I have set in myself and my sons, I try to put into these scouts. As said previously in this thread, with each scout group you have a scout that identifies with a sterotype (a complainer, a speed kid, a tough kid, a tooooo quiet kid-one you have to watch, the pyro, the mommy packed my pack and I cant find X, etc)

With all that my hope is to introduce or enhance the trail experience to them. Part of which is your interaction with others on the trail. .

Each time out I have a goal for them, besides finishing-LOL. It might be stove cooking, compass and map, trail crew leading, trail crew leader, etc). Each time out they get better on the trail expectancies at which point I would like to think it then comes natural to them.

There is an instance where my hiker-blood gets me going a little when the boys push themselves on other hikers. I actually had a boy insist putting his tent near the shelter with a lone hike in it.(after I initially told him not to) and although the guy said it was OK, the boy and his buddy pestered the guy all night . He was out o the site before dawn.


Its a great experience for them and I do believe that if you find something amiss with them, it should be the leaders who are wrong and not the boy.

[HIKER7s]

Go for it..."it's only one hour a week!!"



YES, ONLY an HOUR;)

[HIKER7s]

The Trail isn't "church,"


In some places, it is to some.
:)

[envirodiver]

Env, it's not a 'respect' thing. The Trail isn't "church," and in a place that seems to have debates about whether mooning is OK, whether drugs should be hidden, and about sex among those who aren't married, it seems to me that realizing that some kids get rowdy sometimes - not always, but now and then - sort of is an opportunity for toleration. There is little discourtesy by Scouts - on the trail or elsewhere - but yeah, sometimes they're kids, and the out-of-doors is an acceptable place to let them be that way.

TW

Weasel we probably are not that far apart, but IMO respect is not limited to "church". If you are camping with a group of kids (not just scouts) out in the woods and no-one else is around, allow them to be as wild and loud as you can stand. But, isn't part of the goal to teach these kids more about hiking than how to load a pack and walk? Shouldn't trail ethics play a role, shouldn't these kids be taught that when there are others aorund that they should behave in a manner that does not disturb all of those around? Isn't that type of thing part of the scouting code? I'm not trying to condemn scouting, because the vast majority of scout groups that I have run into are well behaved. Just addressing your statement related to...just get over it everyone they're kids. That is way too similar to the parents that allow little Suzy and Johnny to run wild in a restaurant, disturbing everyone else in the restaurant...aawww they're just bored and letting off a little energy.

Why do you think it is appropriate to ask others to be tolerant of poor behavior in other people's children. Oh they're just kids. I also don't allow other people's dog's to hump my leg, no matter how cute the owner might think it is.

I do think there is a comprimise. It's not fair for hikers to take the attitude of..."look at all of these kids...they have to be bad" and bitch and moan about every little thing these kids do. I'm a former scout and I can assure you that my scoutmaster did not tolerate poor behavior in camp, especially group camping situations.

Comparing thru-hiker bad behavior to children's bad behavior is not oranges to oranges. Scouts are supposed to be taught better. Maybe if these mis-behaving thru hikers had been taught better in scouts they wouldn't be that way. They would realize that the trail is not a great place for a fraternity party.

I still stand by by statement that kids are never to young to learn to respect others.

As usual we'll probably have to agree to disagree, but I've had my say, so you can have the last word.

[Rain Man]

I am currently contemplating joining a troop so as to be an Adult leader, but am still debating my options on that. Does anyone have any thoughts?

I guess it depends on your morals. My morals wouldn't let me apply for membership in a bigoted organization. I wouldn't join a country club that says "no Jews" or "no blacks" or even "no women" for that matter.

I have a friend at church who is a BS troop leader of some sort. He asked if I'd be interested in helping the boys with backpacking (going on trips with them). I said sure thing, until I found out I'd have to formally apply and submit for membership. Then I had to say "no thanks." I would have done it for the boys. I can not and will not do it for the organization. I won't do it if they discriminate against so-called "gays" any more than if they discriminated against a man or boy of color, or non-Christians, etc.

I'm sure others feel differently. This is not to start an argument. Just answering the personal question you posed. If your morals are different (not meaning better or worse) from mine, then go for it and more power to you. Some BS leaders are WONDERFUL. They need more like that.

Rain:sunMan

.

[gold bond]

One of the aims of scouting is to mold a "dependant boy" into a "independant young man". That being said some boys take longer to catch on than others. Take into maturity levels, home situation(single parent family), and social idenification.That being that some boys do not do well in a social atmospere.
All these situations are, for a lack of a better phrase, workable. It's just some take longer than others.I think this is where a good leader(s) that can idenify the situation and work with it.Factor into this that a troop is "boy led" and the adults do not want to get into the way.
Scouting is outing and we use the outdoors as a classroom. I help train adults at the district and council level and at times are amazed at some of the adults that have no experience in the outdoors.This is why in our council/district we have alot of adult training. We train at least 4-6 times a year in our district alone.this training includes Baloo (Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation), and WEBLOS Leader Outdoor Training. All this is at the Cub Scout Level. Then we have Scoutmaster basic outdoor training which is a classroom setting then two weeks after that we have Scoutmaster Outdoor Leader Traing which is a full weekend of outdoor traing to include Backpacking and gear selection. Alot of times a person from our local outfitter will come and do this.
Anyway, Just as a child is no better than his parents...a scout is no better than his leaders.

[BlackCloud]

The only bad thing about Boy Scouts is the Boys.


My point EXACTLY!

[BlackCloud]

Right. If the boy scout didn't need his character built a little, he wouldn't be in the boy scouts. They're supposed to be getting instructed and maturing, not to be perfect.


Oh, I'm not looking for perfection, I would just like them to be relatively docile, clean, and otherwise well behaved.

But in today's society? Foregetaboutit!

[BR360]

Envirodiver wrote: Scouts are supposed to be taught better.

For those who may not know (emphasis mine):

The Scout Law: A Scout IS [!]
Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverent.

The Scout Oath (Promise):
On my honor I will do my bestTo do my duty to God and my countryand to obey the Scout Law;To help other people at all times;To keep myself physically strong,mentally awake, and morally straight.

So, yes, there are teachable moments for Scouts and adult leaders. No one is perfect. If adults do not attempt to teach young ones, then they will suffer as a victim of their own permissiveness.

[HIKER7s]

Envirodiver wrote: Scouts are supposed to be taught better.

For those who may not know (emphasis mine):

The Scout Law: A Scout IS [!]
Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverent.

The Scout Oath (Promise):
On my honor I will do my bestTo do my duty to God and my countryand to obey the Scout Law;To help other people at all times;To keep myself physically strong,mentally awake, and morally straight.

So, yes, there are teachable moments for Scouts and adult leaders. No one is perfect. If adults do not attempt to teach young ones, then they will suffer as a victim of their own permissiveness.


And do you know your outdoor code as well?

This is the basis every scout (who endears the scout code) will think about as an adult now and then and hold themselves to it as best they can.

You can usually know when a person has had scout experience

[BR360]

Removed by author.

[BR360]

And do you know your outdoor code as well?

This is the basis every scout (who endears the scout code) will think about as an adult now and then and hold themselves to it as best they can.

You can usually know when a person has had scout experience

No. Never heard of the outdoor code. I got my Eagle in 1975. Is this something of recent origin, or has my memory failed?

[Pirate]

the boys are not bad. It's the adult leaders that screw up everything.

[Don H]

The Outdoor Code. It is in the Boy Scout handbook.
As an American, I will do my best to -

Be clean in my outdoor manners.
I will treat the outdoors as a heritage.
I will take care of it for myself and others
I will keep my trash and garbage out of lakes, streams, fields, woods, and roadways.
Be careful with fire.
I will prevent wildfire.
I will build my fires only where they are appropriate.
When I have finished using a fire, I will make sure it is cold out.
I will leave a clean fire ring, or remove all evidence of my fire.
Be considerate in the outdoors.
I will treat public and private property with respect.
I will use low-impact methods of hiking and camping.and

Be conservation minded
I will learn how to practice good conservation of soil, waters, forests, minerals, grasslands, wildlife, and energy.
I will urge others to do the same.

[envirodiver]

I don't remember this from when I was in the scouts (Late 60's). But just reading it the language appears to be fairly recent.

[Don H]

I appreciate all of the comments. I would still like to hear from anyone who has had interaction with a Scout group on the AT. Again please be as specific as possible. In a few days I'll go through all the posts and try to come up with some kind of useful data. Thanks again for your insight.

[Bearpaw]

I don't remember this from when I was in the scouts (Late 60's). But just reading it the language appears to be fairly recent.

The Outdoor Code was around when I was a scout in the 80's.

[Footslogger]

I appreciate all of the comments. I would still like to hear from anyone who has had interaction with a Scout group on the AT. Again please be as specific as possible. In a few days I'll go through all the posts and try to come up with some kind of useful data. Thanks again for your insight.

==================================

Been so long it's probably not worth mentioning ....BUT

In 2001 I hiked the first 2 weeks of the trail with my wife (who was doing a thru). We got to Hawk Mtn Shelter the first night and encountered a rather large group of scouts. The shelter was completely full of scouts and gear and some of the scouts had set up tents on the AT ...LITERALLY !! There were also tents directly on the trail leading to the spring behind the shelter.

There was an obvious lack of supervision/adult leadership. Now I was an assistant scout master for 12 years and have an extensive background as a youth scout ...so you could say I am rather biased towards scouting. But that experience drove home the importance of adult leadership. The young scouts were behaving as if they had done nothing wrong and the adult leaders were all set up in the shelter and cooking dinner.

Like I said though ...too long ago to matter.

'Slogger

[Wise Old Owl]

Foot Slogger,

What you describe doesn't sound all that bad, Ok some of the tents are "on" the trail, Where is the crime? Clearly after the break camp they minimized the damages to the local woods. On my trips with the scouts we pick clearings off trail but we have a huge 20- 70 scout group. Putting the extra gear in the shelter to keep it dry doen't sound bad either, seems to make sense. Even when we are at Scout Reservation, the adults take the hard shelter as a "command post" to centralize first aid, dispense foods, and keep an eye on the boys. If you needed the shelter they would have made room. Clearly I wasn't there, but I don't see a problem. Why was it an issue?

[Footslogger]

Foot Slogger,

What you describe doesn't sound all that bad, Ok some of the tents are "on" the trail, Where is the crime? Clearly after the break camp they minimized the damages to the local woods. On my trips with the scouts we pick clearings off trail but we have a huge 20- 70 scout group. Putting the extra gear in the shelter to keep it dry doen't sound bad either, seems to make sense. Even when we are at Scout Reservation, the adults take the hard shelter as a "command post" to centralize first aid, dispense foods, and keep an eye on the boys. If you needed the shelter they would have made room. Clearly I wasn't there, but I don't see a problem. Why was it an issue?

=================================

No crime. Wasn't aware I cited it as a crime !! Just the facts. Your opinion of what's OK might differ from mine ...but I think it's a bit presumptuous to stop hiking and set up a tent RIGHT ON THE TRAIL, boy scouts or not, AT or not. I (we) didn't want the shelter. We had tents and had planned to use them.

If you don't see anything out of place in camping RIGHT on the trail then your question is a valid one.

Somehow I just knew someone would think this was OK.

I was foolish for posting.

'Slogger

[Bearpaw]

Foot Slogger,

What you describe doesn't sound all that bad, Ok some of the tents are "on" the trail, Where is the crime? Clearly after the break camp they minimized the damages to the local woods. On my trips with the scouts we pick clearings off trail but we have a huge 20- 70 scout group. Putting the extra gear in the shelter to keep it dry doen't sound bad either, seems to make sense. Even when we are at Scout Reservation, the adults take the hard shelter as a "command post" to centralize first aid, dispense foods, and keep an eye on the boys. If you needed the shelter they would have made room. Clearly I wasn't there, but I don't see a problem. Why was it an issue?

I'm very pro-scout, but I see that as a BIG problem. No troop should so completely dominate an area that they should block trails. I'm generally a pretty pleasant fellow, but I've woken folks who block the trail with their tent (or in one case hammock, though I knew the guy so it wasn't such a big deal to him). It's uncalled for. In some areas, it's also prohibited.

[Tin Man]

Oh, I'm not looking for perfection, I would just like them to be relatively docile, clean, and otherwise well behaved.

But in today's society? Foregetaboutit!

Being a scout leader, you quickly discover what teachers already know all too well. Some parents take no responsibility for raising their kids today. The onus is on their teachers...and scout leaders.

[The Weasel]

Mark:

While it's a bit in your past now, similar things may occur for others. Some thoughts from a veteran Scoutmaster as well as backpacker:

--- Training in the backwoods isn't part of Scoutmaster Training. The purpose of Scouting isn't camping and hiking; it's character development. So a lot of leaders don't have the experience or training you do. I'm glad those fathers/leaders were out there in the first place. They were learning too, and making mistakes. Give them some credit for the good parts.

---- Scout leadersa re gregarious by nature, and love to meet others who share their interest in kids and the out-of-doors. While their skills may be out of date or otherwise lacking, they want to make them first rate - I'm tempted to say, "First Class" - and are almost always glad to have suggestions about doing things differently and better, as long as it's not an angry harangue or lecture. If you'd had a few extra moments, you might have sat down (and gotten a free cup of coffee; Scoutmasters ALWAYS have coffee brewing) and made a couple of key suggestions: Tents out of the trail (and why), perhaps, and about letting others use the shelter if the weather turned bad, and how shelters are generally geared towards X number of people (usually 18"). Done in a friendly manner, you would have helped the leaders do a better job.

--- Tents on a trail in some places are, environmentally, not a bad thing. I don't know the site, but damage to ground cover is less, and in some places, there just aren't flat places without a lot of rubble/branches/rocks. Yes, sometimes necessity is a mother.

--- I've been in a lot of shelters where other adults said and did things I didn't enjoy, whether it was smoking, being loud after I went to bed at 6 PM, or having sex with their girlfriend a foot away from me. That's part of shelter life, and Scouts having fun is no more or less a problem than others.

Thanks for posting.

TW

[Wise Old Owl]

Mark:

While it's a bit in your past now, similar things may occur for others. Some thoughts from a veteran Scoutmaster as well as backpacker:


TW

Uh - I stopped volunteering last year. I agree with everything you wrote we are on the same page. Yes I am a proud Eagle Scout, OA and my son is too.

[Blissful]

I appreciate all of the comments. I would still like to hear from anyone who has had interaction with a Scout group on the AT. Again please be as specific as possible. In a few days I'll go through all the posts and try to come up with some kind of useful data. Thanks again for your insight.


Just curious why you are doing this and for what purpose the "data" from a few White Blaze members will serve?

Anyway, speaking of this, Paul Bunyan and I have just been asked to share at a major Scout roundtable of leaders in June about our AT experience. I would like to use data from posts like this to help leaders do all that they can to make sure the boys have a safe, enjoyable hike while respecting nature and fellow hikers. I am really looking forward to it.

[gsingjane]

Don, you asked for specific interactions... two months ago I came along as a parent helper for my sons' BS troop on an overnight hike on the AT in CT. This was my feedback: as was noted earlier, the older boys have much more stamina and perseverance than the younger boys. All the boys have grossly overweight packs with oddments tied on and around. They had been set up with heavy aluminum pots and pans and coffee pots by the leaders, so these clinked and clanked as we marched along. Several anxious moms had sent such items as double sleeping bags!

The meals were planned well and apportioned correctly.

The leaders did not focus on the fact that, especially given that it was nearing the winter equinox, daylight hours would be quite short. All evening cooking and nighttime preparation was done in the dark. This probably should not have happened, as many bits and pieces were left strewn about overnight.

It took a considerable amount of time for the troop to change course and to get going. One of the older boys very intelligently told the scouts that the last boy to be packed up in the morning would have to carry the garbage. This got them moving when nothing else would.

There was a bit of an attempt made at nature destruction (they assumed because a tree had no leaves it was dead, not a good assumption in the winter) but this was quickly nipped in the bud by the leader.

The scoutmaster wasn't so much signed off on supervision, as he did truly believe that it should be delegated to the boys. Things took an awful lot longer, and were greatly more disorganized, but I certainly didn't notice anything that was disrespectful or dangerous. I enjoyed going along as a parent, because I basically had nothing to do except hike along, set up camp with the boys, and wait for them to get organized. Although they did talk somewhat into the night, this was not loud and I am pretty sure all were sleeping by at least 10 p.m.

Jane in CT

[Wise Old Owl]

I am going to put this out there because every time someone starts a scout thread on White Blaze there is clearly a lack of understanding as the role Baden Powel wanted adults in scouting to do.

Tazie & Jessebrent are correcty quoted:

“Military”
In that case, the adult leaders totally miss the point. Boy Scouts are suppose to be run by the boys. The leaders are only there to advice, and assure safety.

Boys who are old enough to backpack 50 miles are old enough to lead their troop/patrols.

Scouts are not suppose to share sleeping quarters with adults. If any adult is sleeping in a shelter, It is the duty of the Scout Master to move the boys into tents.

“Thoughtless posts” like Lone Wolf & Pirate posted IN THIS THREAD are clearly negative, I am amazed someone else agreed with them. Nothing could be more frustrating than to bash the parents who are volunteering their time, money and resources to help kids grow up to be young outstanding men or women in any organization.

LW I am sure you will eventually see this, I understand from others here at WB you are well liked and sometimes misunderstood. But I don’t remember reading a book written by Dale called “How to Win Friends & Irritate People.” Sometimes you post stuff that clearly removes all the doubt. I am not trying to offend, just put some more thought into it.

[swellbill]

i've been on the AT 21 years, met tons of scouts. 99.9% of the boys i've met have been great. it's the "leaders' that sucked

I am a leader & as such I have the misfortune to interact with other leaders at times. Some do suck. Most of the time an unruly scout or a group of unruly scouts are just unruly bratty kids that their but hole parents are forcing to be scouts. Just like a previous post that blames teachers for a class full of bad kids, to think that you some of these kids turn bad as soon as they are exposed to a leader is wrong and delusional. When a leader can actually make a difference in a boy, maybe help an unruly boy turn into a responsible young man, help a dad-less boy enjoy the great outdoors, then it is worth the hassle to deal with a whole gaggle of scouts.
I sometimes fantasize about weeding out the problem kids and only leading the good kids. Then one "problem" kid will do a good turn or have an exciting time with a scout skill and look at you and say "that was awesome...Thanks" Well, that's why some of us stay with it.

[Lone Wolf]

“Thoughtless posts” like Lone Wolf & Pirate posted IN THIS THREAD are clearly negative, I am amazed someone else agreed with them. Nothing could be more frustrating than to bash the parents who are volunteering their time, money and resources to help kids grow up to be young outstanding men or women in any organization.[/COLOR] [/COLOR]

LW I am sure you will eventually see this, I understand from others here at WB you are well liked and sometimes misunderstood. But I don’t remember reading a book written by Dale called “How to Win Friends & Irritate People.” Sometimes you post stuff that clearly removes all the doubt. I am not trying to offend, just put some more thought into it.

let me tell you somethin' swarbrick. me and pirate have been out "here" a while. we've seen lots of groups. scouts, church, hood-in- woods, etc. i'll give you 1 example of MANY times the adults sucked. some years back in the smoky's came upon derrick knob shelter. there was a group of 8-10 scouts with 2 leaders. good boys, havin' fun, cuttin' up with us hikers. they were eatin thier freez-dried meals out of these huge packets. a fire was started and next thing you know the boys were taking out all thier garbage and started to put it in the fire. me and some others were like, WHOA, what are you doin'? this is what we are taught they said. we looked at the adults, the kids too and the adults looked back with dumb looks. anyway you get the picture. the boys were not schooled right. i got lots more stories. the boys ain't the problem. and screw dale :cool:

[Footslogger]

After 12 years as an assistant scoutmaster for a troop that averaged over 125 scouts I am very well aware of Baden Powell's philosophy regarding the Boy Scouts being run by boys. I also saw, over those 12 years, a trend toward increasing "entitlement" on the part of the boys and less parent involvment.

When I was a youngster I went to school, had a paper route and was an active boy scout. Today many of the kids are overwhelmed with all the stuff shoved in their face (by well meaning parents) and scouting, unfortunately, becomes an inexpensive drop-off service.

My personal philosophy was always that as long as I was making a difference in the life of ONE young scout it was worth the time I was investing. I took a full week of vacation every year and went to summer camp to work with the "first year scouts" and get them started with their basic skills and merit badges. After many years of doing that I shifted my attention to the older scouts and what is commonly called the "High Adventure" programs. By the age of 16, many of the boys catch either the gasoline or perfume bug, as we used to call it. In other words, they become obscessed with cars or girls (and some do both). I took the older boys on 2 and 3 day weekend hikes that would challenge them and teach them some self reliance. I personally led 3 Philmont treks and took 12 scouts to the Florida Seabase for Scuba diving 4 years in a row.

Bottom line is that I know what boy scouting is all about and I've done just about everything possible to enable the boys to run their own troop. But in the end ALL well run troops today have a full (proportional) compliment of committed adult leaders who allow the boys to make a lot of decisions as to thier activities. HOWEVER, those same adults actively supervise those activities and intervene when necessary to keep the behavior from getting out of control.

Scouting is a great program and scouts are great ...but without active adult supervision in today's world the scouts and the program would be lost. Boys will be boys, as the saying goes, but that is no excuse for inappropriate behavior on hikes/campouts.

'Slogger

[Tin Man]

let me tell you somethin' swarbrick. me and pirate have been out "here" a while. we've seen lots of groups. scouts, church, hood-in- woods, etc. i'll give you 1 example of MANY times the adults sucked. some years back in the smoky's came upon derrick knob shelter. there was a group of 8-10 scouts with 2 leaders. good boys, havin' fun, cuttin' up with us hikers. they were eatin thier freez-dried meals out of these huge packets. a fire was started and next thing you know the boys were taking out all thier garbage and started to put it in the fire. me and some others were like, WHOA, what are you doin'? this is what we are taught they said. we looked at the adults, the kids too and the adults looked back with dumb looks. anyway you get the picture. the boys were not schooled right. i got lots more stories. the boys ain't the problem. and screw dale :cool:

This story reminds me that when I recently started organizing the backpacking trips that I am teaching the adults as much as the kids. Many adults are newbies at the whole backpacking thing and I have learned not to take anything for granted when it comes to their hiking knowledge.

[GGS2]

This story reminds me that when I recently started organizing the backpacking trips that I am teaching the adults as much as the kids. Many adults are newbies at the whole backpacking thing and I have learned not to take anything for granted when it comes to their hiking knowledge.

That's been my impression. There aren't very many woodsmen left in our societies, and I expect most of them aren't raising families of teenage boys. I've met some real fine scoutmasters, but I wouldn't spend much time in the woods with them. Too much book and too little bush. And not much understanding of the way a human animal operates without the contents of an average suburban bungalow. How can such people be proper examples for boy scouts? Come to that, how can such people operate in the world without destroying it?

We need more boy scouts, but not the way they are now doing it, I expect.

[Green Frog]

i've been on the AT 21 years, met tons of scouts. 99.9% of the boys i've met have been great. it's the "leaders' that sucked


Why do you post like that ?

:confused:

[minnesotasmith]

And support their mission and philosophy whole-heartedly, especially their resistance to going politically-correct/immoral. I intend to volunteer to help out a Scout troop when time permits in the future (especially when/if I have a son).

That said, I have repeatedly seen Boy Scout troops swarm shelters and litter, more so than most other youth groups (Outward Bound, even the Girl Scouts). Only the "hoods in the woods" groups were worse about littering/noise, and they weren't as bad about taking over shelters.

If all the Boy Scouts would not so much as pause within 50' of shelters, pick up all their trash, not cut down live trees, and keep down the noise when at large campsites (that non-Scouts are using too), I'd have no issue with them on the AT.

[Wise Old Owl]

seen Boy Scout troops swarm shelters and litter, more so than most other youth groups (Outward Bound, even the Girl Scouts). Only the "hoods in the woods" groups were worse about littering/noise, and they weren't as bad about taking over shelters.

If all the Boy Scouts would not so much as pause within 50' of shelters, pick up all their trash, not cut down live trees, and keep down the noise when at large campsites (that non-Scouts are using too), I'd have no issue with them on the AT.

owwwwch.
In all my years I have never seen anyone cut a live tree for a fire, it doesnt work and they would have received a yelling. Next time you come upon a group say something, my group always cleaned up better than they left it.

[Lone Wolf]

Why do you post like that ?

:confused:

uhh, cuz it's true. :-?

[zoidfu]

i've been on the AT 21 years, met tons of scouts. 99.9% of the boys i've met have been great. it's the "leaders' that sucked

I second that. I met a group a few years ago and the "leaders" were cutting down saplings for firewood at the Peter's Mt. Shelter. I'm pretty sure they were drunk, too.

[HIKER7s]

owwwwch.
In all my years I have never seen anyone cut a live tree for a fire, it doesnt work and they would have received a yelling. Next time you come upon a group say something, my group always cleaned up better than they left it.


...And so does mine. Why should anyone have to say something to the groups leader about the way THEIR scout is acting? They should already know better.

The leaders should lay down the woods behavior in all hiking, camping, backpacking experiences, no matter how close or far from civilization they are.

When I run a scout group I ask them to take trash bags to use specifically on the last day out. (If someone forget his, I have plenty). Then we pick up as we go out. If we come on an area that apparently had plenty of waste activity, we concentrate on that and pack it out.

[Gray Blazer]

My scout master was great and I still smart from his lecture about when I cut the green sapling for firewood and that was almost 40 yrs ago. Now the other adults......they were usually liquored up and one of them was put in prison 2 yrs ago for sexually molesting a teen.

[Don H]

Blissfull asked "Just curious why you are doing this and for what purpose the "data" from a few White Blaze members will serve?"

A few days ago I read a post from a member detailing what he felt was inappropriate behavior by a scout group at a shelter. I have also read other posts here that indicate that at least some of the hiking community have a problem with the way scouts act at times on the trail. I thought I would ask the members to relate their experiences with scouts, both positive and negative in an effort to try to identify specific problem areas.

The results of the information from these posts will be part of the reseach I am doing for my Doctorate thesis on public relations and BSA. I hope that this information will eventually be put into the hands scout leaders planning an AT hike so that they can have a better understanding of the hiking community. As an example the inital post on another thread about scouts using and taking over a shelter (this has been mentioned on this thread too) was something that the Scoutmaster, who I interviewed by email, was not aware of at that time as being a problem. So maybe if we had a tip list for scouts using the AT one of the tips would be "Scouting units should plan to camp in established camping areas away from shelters. Shelters should not be used by units..."

In a few days I'll go through all the posts, pull out the information and post the results. Thanks again for everyone who has posted.

[Thoughtful Owl]

I don't remember this from when I was in the scouts (Late 60's). But just reading it the language appears to be fairly recent.

FYI, the 1948 edition of the Boy Scout Handbook was the first to include the Outdoor Code. However, back then it was refered to as the Conservation Pledge.

http://www.threefirescouncil.org/History/1948.htm

TO

[Thoughtful Owl]

=================================

No crime. Wasn't aware I cited it as a crime !! Just the facts. Your opinion of what's OK might differ from mine ...but I think it's a bit presumptuous to stop hiking and set up a tent RIGHT ON THE TRAIL, boy scouts or not, AT or not. I (we) didn't want the shelter. We had tents and had planned to use them.

If you don't see anything out of place in camping RIGHT on the trail then your question is a valid one.

Somehow I just knew someone would think this was OK.

I was foolish for posting.

'Slogger

No Slogger, you were not foolish for posting. I am sure there are readers on here that have absolutely no clue. The LNT principles teach traveling and camping on durable surfaces, so as not to trample vegetation or communities of organisms beyond recovery. The resulting barren areas develop into undesirable trails, campsites, and soil erosion.

And I am sure there are those that would continue this statement with, "In high-use areas, campers should concentrate their activities where vegetation is already absent. Minimize resource damage by using existing trails and selecting designated or existing campsites. Keep campsites small by arranging tents in close proximity".

But when anyone is set up on a trail, that means those using the trail have to go off trail and then they will trample vegetation. If the adults had been properly trained they would have gone off trail and found durable surface areas in which to establish a campsite. Also it must be kept in mind the group should not have been so large. LTN point 7. "Be considerate of other visitors."

Just my thoughts, for what it worth.

TO

[BlackCloud]

After 12 years as an assistant scoutmaster for a troop that averaged over 125 scouts...

'Slogger

You mean at a time? I've never even heard of a Troop THAT big, and can't understand why you wouldn't split t up.....

[Footslogger]

You mean at a time? I've never even heard of a Troop THAT big, and can't understand why you wouldn't split t up.....

=======================================

That came up many times in conversation at the adult leader meetings. Problem is that the sponsoring organization was like a small city and had an "open door" policy for registration. Also, there were a large number of Cub Scout Packs requesting cross-over every year. We started to run out of names for the different patrols (LOL). In my last 2-3 years we did form a Venture Patrol for the "16 and older" scouts who were pretty well on their way to Eagle and wanted to focus on high adventure stuff.

'Slogger

[Thoughtful Owl]

Just curious why you are doing this and for what purpose the "data" from a few White Blaze members will serve?

Anyway, speaking of this, Paul Bunyan and I have just been asked to share at a major Scout roundtable of leaders in June about our AT experience. I would like to use data from posts like this to help leaders do all that they can to make sure the boys have a safe, enjoyable hike while respecting nature and fellow hikers. I am really looking forward to it.

Blissful, when you and your son "share" at the district roundtable, please stress to the adult leaders the need to take a LNT course before heading out into the back country with their unit.

As someone rightly stated, LNT is not taught in the Scoutmaster Training Course. However, from my perspective as a Scoutmaster, Roundtable Commissioner, Trainer, member of various district & council committees, Vigil Honor member of the OA etc. etc. there is no excuse for ignorance. There are a number of supplemental training courses available to the adults. Our council camps offer LNT every week of summer camp to any adult that is willing to take the time to attend. (what else are they going to do while the scouts are out doing their thing?) In addition the council also offers an annual LNT Instructors Course.

As someone also stated, the scouts are learn what they have been taught, right or wrong. Again, in my opinion if an adult leader firmly believes in the program, he will get as much training as possible so that he/she may impart this great knowledge to his scouts. I also agree as was previously stated the boy scout troop is supposed to be a boy run organization. That being said, it is still the Scoutmasters responsibility to teach the senior youth leadership!

TO

[Thoughtful Owl]

=======================================

That came up many times in conversation at the adult leader meetings. Problem is that the sponsoring organization was like a small city and had an "open door" policy for registration. Also, there were a large number of Cub Scout Packs requesting cross-over every year. We started to run out of names for the different patrols (LOL). In my last 2-3 years we did form a Venture Patrol for the "16 and older" scouts who were pretty well on their way to Eagle and wanted to focus on high adventure stuff.

'Slogger

Go Slogger! Sure wish you were here in the my area and in my district too!

TO

[Lone Wolf]

scoutmasters/scouts. dog masters/dogs. if a dog or a scout is behaving badly it's because the master hasn't taught them properly. can't blame the scout/dog

[Thoughtful Owl]

scoutmasters/scouts. dog masters/dogs. if a dog or a scout is behaving badly it's because the master hasn't taught them properly. can't blame the scout/dog

Amen! I am in 100% agreement.

[Tin Man]

scoutmasters/scouts. dog masters/dogs. if a dog or a scout is behaving badly it's because the master hasn't taught them properly. can't blame the scout/dog

That kind of sums up many other issues as well.

[minnesotasmith]

That kind of sums up many other issues as well.

That the threatening dog can't be shot or bear-sprayed, or the littering/vandalous kid can't be put in unpleasant contact with LEOs, though.

[Tin Man]

That you blame the owner/parent, not the dog/kid doesn't mean... That the threatening dog can't be shot or bear-sprayed, or the littering/vandalous kid can't be put in unpleasant contact with LEOs, though.

Correct.

[gold bond]

Blissful, when you and your son "share" at the district roundtable, please stress to the adult leaders the need to take a LNT course before heading out into the back country with their unit.

As someone rightly stated, LNT is not taught in the Scoutmaster Training Course. However, from my perspective as a Scoutmaster, Roundtable Commissioner, Trainer, member of various district & council committees, Vigil Honor member of the OA etc. etc. there is no excuse for ignorance. There are a number of supplemental training courses available to the adults. Our council camps offer LNT every week of summer camp to any adult that is willing to take the time to attend. (what else are they going to do while the scouts are out doing their thing?) In addition the council also offers an annual LNT Instructors Course.

As someone also stated, the scouts are learn what they have been taught, right or wrong. Again, in my opinion if an adult leader firmly believes in the program, he will get as much training as possible so that he/she may impart this great knowledge to his scouts. I also agree as was previously stated the boy scout troop is supposed to be a boy run organization. That being said, it is still the Scoutmasters responsibility to teach the senior youth leadership!

TO

LNT is most certainly a module in the Scoumaster training! I have been assisting in teaching that course for over 5 years now and it is in the syllibus to be done the very first night. There is even a video called "soft Paths" that go along with it.
Check with your council training chair and find out why it is not in your syllibus.

[gold bond]

scoutmasters/scouts. dog masters/dogs. if a dog or a scout is behaving badly it's because the master hasn't taught them properly. can't blame the scout/dog

OOOOO sinse you are so wise and soooo correct!!;)

[dessertrat]

That the threatening dog can't be shot or bear-sprayed, or the littering/vandalous kid can't be put in unpleasant contact with LEOs, though.

Right, it's just that the larger part of any anger you might have should be directed at the master/parent rather than the dog/kid.

[Thoughtful Owl]

LNT is most certainly a module in the Scoumaster training! I have been assisting in teaching that course for over 5 years now and it is in the syllibus to be done the very first night. There is even a video called "soft Paths" that go along with it.
Check with your council training chair and find out why it is not in your syllibus.

Yes, it is but only as a brief overview, might as well not be in there. The LNT course offers much more info. and in my opinion is just really an into course. Scoutmaster really should take the LNT Instructors Course.

[HIKER7s]

Go Slogger! Sure wish you were here in the my area and in my district too!

TO



I do to! I'd be doing my best trying to steal some of those cub packs away from ya.

[Wise Old Owl]

No Slogger, you were not foolish for posting. I am sure there are readers on here that have absolutely no clue. The LNT principles teach traveling and camping on durable surfaces, so as not to trample vegetation or communities of organisms beyond recovery. The resulting barren areas develop into undesirable trails, campsites, and soil erosion.

And I am sure there are those that would continue this statement with, "In high-use areas, campers should concentrate their activities where vegetation is already absent. Minimize resource damage by using existing trails and selecting designated or existing campsites. Keep campsites small by arranging tents in close proximity".

But when anyone is set up on a trail, that means those using the trail have to go off trail and then they will trample vegetation. If the adults had been properly trained they would have gone off trail and found durable surface areas in which to establish a campsite. Also it must be kept in mind the group should not have been so large. LTN point 7. "Be considerate of other visitors."

Just my thoughts, for what it worth.

TO


Thank You, Your choice of words is exactly what I should have said, and Slogger - sorry about the choice of the word"Crime" My Group never sets up "on the trail" anyway, but Troup 78 is a very large group. (They own a bus)

[gold bond]

Yes, it is but only as a brief overview, might as well not be in there. The LNT course offers much more info. and in my opinion is just really an into course. Scoutmaster really should take the LNT Instructors Course.

It is actually a 45 minute section. The video soft paths is 20-25 minutes then we go thru th 7 princables in as much detail as possible and open it up for discussion. We actually have "Poop Tubes" made up and a power point presentation for the seven princables. By the time all questions are answered and we wrap it up heck it may be 11 11:30 that first night.

Then when we do the backpacking module on that last day we satrt that off by reviewing the LNT from the first night. You have all weekend for this course and since it is geared around the outdoors we really push the LNT and the Outdoor Code. I feel they get more out of that then Campfire Planning!

[gold bond]

Yes, it is but only as a brief overview, might as well not be in there. The LNT course offers much more info. and in my opinion is just really an into course. Scoutmaster really should take the LNT Instructors Course.

OOO sorry T. Owl I did not read your post in full....you are correct though...a LNT course is much more in depth. Our district has offered a full day training course several times and has a great turn out each time. Actually it is one of our White Blazers that is certified to teach it and he does a wonderfull job! We as well have been very successfull in offering a Wilderness First Aid course. That is a two full weekend course and have had a lot of interest in it as well.

[wpbucher]

This thread reminded me of the letter to the editor in Jan-Feb 2008 edition of Journeys entitled "Youth on the Trail". The Scouts are very good candidates to become the "Trail Stewards" of the future. Perhaps with that in mind, you might interact with them differently?

[GGS2]

,,, We actually have "Poop Tubes" made up and a power point presentation for the seven princables. ...

You actually use poop tubes in SC?

[gold bond]

You actually use poop tubes in SC?

Didn't say we used them...just said we had them for the presentation! Kind of hard to cut down on pack weight and carry a "poop tube", We do however instruct on the proper disposal and marking of the spot!

[Thoughtful Owl]

OOO sorry T. Owl I did not read your post in full....you are correct though...a LNT course is much more in depth. Our district has offered a full day training course several times and has a great turn out each time. Actually it is one of our White Blazers that is certified to teach it and he does a wonderfull job! We as well have been very successfull in offering a Wilderness First Aid course. That is a two full weekend course and have had a lot of interest in it as well.

Will this course meet the new requirements for Philmont? We are offering a Wilderness First Aid course too.

http://www.scouting.org/philmont/2008firstaidrequirements.pdf

I hope (if I can get off from work) to take the LNT-Master Educator Course in April through our council.

[BlackCloud]

A scoutmaster can't always be blamed for the utter lack of discipline imposed on scouts by their parents. I mean, what mother refuses to teach at home cannot be rectified on a weekend outing by an adult the child in many cases barely knows.

Scouts behave badly b/c they're crappy kids. Yes, I've seen scoutmasters do nothing, and damn them, but I've seen my fair share of exasperated adult leaders as well.

We live in a society where 14 and 15 year olds kill people. I'm getting tired of hearing the excuses....:-?

[mweinstone]

the boy scouts, america and the appalachian trail are all the same thing. independence. they cannot nor will ever over my dead cold corpse be seperated. i love the scouts and collect all my memories of meets with them on trail,.. in my special memory place. without scouts on the trail,...well you might as well have no tree at christmas and no flag in the classroom.no scouts indeed. i think not sir. i didnt read the thread.

[Johnny Thunder]

the boy scouts, america and the appalachian trail are all the same thing. independence. they cannot nor will ever over my dead cold corpse be seperated. i love the scouts and collect all my memories of meets with them on trail,.. in my special memory place. without scouts on the trail,...well you might as well have no tree at christmas and no flag in the classroom.no scouts indeed. i think not sir. i didnt read the thread.


If you'd read it then you'd know not to mention scouts and your "special place" in the same sentense.

[HIKER7s]

A scoutmaster can't always be blamed for the utter lack of discipline imposed on scouts by their parents. I mean, what mother refuses to teach at home cannot be rectified on a weekend outing by an adult the child in many cases barely knows.

Scouts behave badly b/c they're crappy kids. Yes, I've seen scoutmasters do nothing, and damn them, but I've seen my fair share of exasperated adult leaders as well.

We live in a society where 14 and 15 year olds kill people. I'm getting tired of hearing the excuses....:-?

:-?....And your scouting experience would be what?

[gold bond]

Will this course meet the new requirements for Philmont? We are offering a Wilderness First Aid course too.

http://www.scouting.org/philmont/2008firstaidrequirements.pdf

I hope (if I can get off from work) to take the LNT-Master Educator Course in April through our council.

I am "pretty" sure that this is the course that we have or if it isn't what we have is dang close. Our close is two weekends and costs a whole alot more.
I forwarded this to our council training chair to make sure though...thanks!

[gold bond]

Will this course meet the new requirements for Philmont? We are offering a Wilderness First Aid course too.

http://www.scouting.org/philmont/2008firstaidrequirements.pdf

I hope (if I can get off from work) to take the LNT-Master Educator Course in April through our council.

After checking with our Council Training chair...yes this is the course that we have offered in the last two years. It is very detailed and very informative.Alot of hands on.

[mark schofield]

I've had both good and bad experiences with boy scout troupes. If I meet someone and they tell me there are scouts ahead, I usually try to find my evening stop with out them. BUT, I was a boy scout a long time ago and that experience probably gave me a taste or memory for the outdoors which I find when I'm backing. Everyone has to start somewhere. So as frustrating as they sometimes are at the shelter (remember, they are only young boisterous kids) I have to remember that I was probably a loud AH also. So I put up with it. Mark S

[BlackCloud]

:-?....And your scouting experience would be what?

I've been to Philmont, Sea Base and Maine.

Eagle Scout w/ 4 palms.

Held every scout leadership position in Troop 1449 at one point.

Assistant Scoutmaster for a couple of years...

[Foyt20]

^^^ ha ha ha Nice ;):D

[Green Frog]

I think after reading these posts that we have a lot of valid complaints about boy scouts on the trail, what we all forgot about is the expectation when boys put on a uniform we have asperations that they behave as adults, in fact they are children, many with different issues, some are handicapped. Put this in a different perspective and suddenly a few of the previous "thoughts" or posts are clearly out of place; but thats my opnion, As parents who have children are we not supportive? instead of what is written here?

[Christus Cowboy]

My experience with scout troops on the trail have been very good. They were generally well behaved and interacted with me on a respectful level. As noted in previous posts, there were times where I observed them to be heavily loaded down with unnecessary gear while others appeared to be ill prepared for the weather conditions that was anticipated in the weather forecast. I've also had a couple of the experiences where the groups were rather large in the 16 to 20 person range but even then I found them to be well supervised. I have also had some great conversations with Scout Masters where I found them very friendly and seemingly always ready to compare notes, ask questions, examine my gear, and learn different tricks of the trade. I have had scout masters express frustration at times where parents will spend 12-13 years neglecting their parental responsibilities of disciplining their children at home and then complain to the scout master when they can't "fix" their kids disciplinary problems in one backpacking trip. As a parent of two children both of which have been backpacking quite a bit with me, I have found that many of the values the Boy Scouts embrace should not only be taught at Boy Scout meetings and activities but also in the home. In spite of this, I applaud all the adults who either lead, participate, or other support these activities... They are certainly not in for the pay... and often times the rewards for their labor come years down the road when alot of these kids grow up into responsible adults.

[Tenderheart]

One of the worst nights on the trail in 2000 for me was at Ensign Cowell Shelter because of scouts from Delaware. Not a leader in sight.

litefoot 2000

[Odd Thomas]

I would like to hear from those of you who have met Boy Scouts on the trail. Have your experiences been positive or negative? Please be as specific as possible as to date, place and situation.

Experience: Negative. They made me look for a left handed smoke shifter and gave me a wedgie.:p Rumor has it they have a "no hazing" policy these days though.

Date ummm, 80's, place somewhere in NY section of AT, was with troop 275 Otiena council.

[Turtle2]

During my thru I met several groups of Boy Scouts on the trail. The main thing was seeing SO MANY PEOPLE at one time after hiking solo for a while. All were well behaved. The most memorable was when the scouts gathered round their Scout Master and observed as he (a dentist) replaced my crown at a shelter in VA. Using a head lamp and sassafrass twig at twilight the deed was completed. Talk about primitive dentistry! They even gave me some extra food!

[Blissful]

Well, after my visit to Circuit City today - and what does this have to do with Boy Scouts and the trail...hold on - I will put this to you - What's worse? A few rowdy boys in a shelter area on the AT having fun in the great outdoors or youths and others that go into Circuit City and steal $100,000 worth of merchandise in a year (as the sales reps in the store told us was their loss last year) because they have nothing else to do with their lives? I'm glad there are organizations like the Boy Scouts where they can learn other things rather than how to sneak around and steal batteries out of laptops on display, etc)

[Wise Old Owl]

One of the worst nights on the trail in 2000 for me was at Ensign Cowell Shelter because of scouts from Delaware. Not a leader in sight.

litefoot 2000


Sorry Lightfoot - You were obviously not in scouting or have no idea what it was about.. Scouting is a BOY run organization, unlike observations on the outside (I will give you that) I was a Senior Patrol Leader and the Adults took a clear back seat, I really ran the planning and organization of the group activity. Baden Powell's vision of leadership training had little to do with adults. In fact the new book asks boys to lead small groups on trips.

[Wise Old Owl]

Well, after my visit to Circuit City today - and what does this have to do with Boy Scouts and the trail...hold on - I will put this to you - What's worse? A few rowdy boys in a shelter area on the AT having fun in the great outdoors or youths and others that go into Circuit City and steal $100,000 worth of merchandise in a year (as the sales reps in the store told us was their loss last year) because they have nothing else to do with their lives? I'm glad there are organizations like the Boy Scouts where they can learn other things rather than how to sneak around and steal batteries out of laptops on display, etc)

I had to read that 3x's - but I get it, Circuit City looses a lot of money but $100,000 is less than 3% of the overall revenue of each store. IF it is higher they bring in internal spys of loss prevention to discover the real loss - the employees ... FYI I worked there 8 years.

[Plodderman]

Glad to have the scouts. Anyone who will help get the kids Hiking has to be a good things.

[Tenderheart]

Sorry Lightfoot - You were obviously not in scouting or have no idea what it was about.. Scouting is a BOY run organization, unlike observations on the outside (I will give you that) I was a Senior Patrol Leader and the Adults took a clear back seat, I really ran the planning and organization of the group activity. Baden Powell's vision of leadership training had little to do with adults. In fact the new book asks boys to lead small groups on trips.


Gee Whiz!! If you're going to de-value my OBSERVATION and my OPINION, at least spell my name right.

litefoot 2000

[OregonHiker]

Sorry Lightfoot - You were obviously not in scouting or have no idea what it was about.. Scouting is a BOY run organization, unlike observations on the outside (I will give you that) I was a Senior Patrol Leader and the Adults took a clear back seat, I really ran the planning and organization of the group activity. Baden Powell's vision of leadership training had little to do with adults. In fact the new book asks boys to lead small groups on trips.


W-O-O:

That's the way it's supposed to be and your leaders should be congratulated. Unfortunately, some troops aren't as boy led as they should be. My son is lucky in that his troop is very much boy led, which is why they have, IMO a very very high retention rate and almost every boy has earned their eagle.

[sly dog]

I have seen scouts on the trail several times and they were always well manered and no trouble. The only time I was angry twards the leadership and scouts was once when hiking on a hot day I saw a pack of scouts eating and drinking a cooler full of trail magic left by a 05 thru hiker with a note on it saying this is for thru and section hikers please. I noticed the scouts had no back packs so it was a day hike and the cooler was almost empty as they drank the sodas and ate the candy bars that were in it. I felt bad myself for having 1 soda being I was only out for a 50 mile section and not a thru hiker myself.Thge worst part was there was a note on the cooler stating whom it was for.

[Tin Man]

Scouts, scout leaders AND people that have no association with scouts do dumb things on the trail as they do in life. It is all a learning experience and hopefully everyone grows and moves on from the experience even when some don't realize their mistakes until later in life.

Why can't we leave the scouts alone and move on here?

[Marta]

Sorry Lightfoot - You were obviously not in scouting or have no idea what it was about.. Scouting is a BOY run organization, unlike observations on the outside (I will give you that) I was a Senior Patrol Leader and the Adults took a clear back seat, I really ran the planning and organization of the group activity. Baden Powell's vision of leadership training had little to do with adults. In fact the new book asks boys to lead small groups on trips.


So when I find a pack of Scouts misbehaving (for example, running up and down the hall, slamming doors and shouting, at the AMC's Highland Lodge in the middle of the night), with no leaders in sight (or earshot, obviously), I'm just supposed to grin and think "It's a boy-run organization. They can do whatever they like?"

I don't buy that at all. Packs of kids need supervision, especially when they go out in public. If they don't have adult assistance in remembering how to behave, there's no difference between Boy Scouts and a street gang.

[Lone Wolf]

i've been on the AT 21 years, met tons of scouts. 99.9% of the boys i've met have been great. it's the "leaders' that sucked

like i said, marta :)

[Tin Man]

As an assistant scout master I resemble that remark. :)

If you see any group of youth out of control, you can always talk to the adults accompanying them, whether they are boy scouts, a church group, or from a prep school.

[Marta]

As an assistant scout master I resemble that remark. :)

If you see any group of youth out of control, you can always talk to the adults accompanying them, whether they are boy scouts, a church group, or from a prep school.

The group that I had problems with didn't have any adult leaders present. I don't know where the adults were--I had met them at dinner--but when the boys were running amok in the middle of the night, the adults were MIA.

In my case, I dealt with the boys directly. I asked once nicely. When that request was ignored, I gave them a direct order to shut up, get in their rooms, and not slam the doors anymore. Lo and behold, it worked like a charm.

So, yeah, I pretty much think that it's better to confront the problem indivduals politely but directly, rather than sit there and seethe.

However, I have to say that any youth group (Scout, school, church, sports team, or group of friends) that goes about without adult supervision is asking for trouble. One or two kids behave quite differently than larger groups. They egg each other on.

[earlyriser26]

I've hike on the AT for almost 40 years and have never had any real problems with groups of scouts. The biggest problem comes from a large group of scouts wanting to use a shelter and not having tents, but I've witnessed the same problem with groups of thru hikers. Recently, a scout leader asked me if I would take a group of scouts on an easy 3 day hike this fall. We haven't gotten to the planning stage yet, but I'm concerned about a group of 8 - 10 people. I'll be looking for large camping areas roughly 7-8 miles appart on a fairly easy part of the trail. Any suggestions?

[Lone Wolf]

Recently, a scout leader asked me if I would take a group of scouts on an easy 3 day hike this fall. We haven't gotten to the planning stage yet, but I'm concerned about a group of 8 - 10 people. I'll be looking for large camping areas roughly 7-8 miles appart on a fairly easy part of the trail. Any suggestions?

40 miles north or south of Damascus. lots of camping ops.

[Tin Man]

The group that I had problems with didn't have any adult leaders present. I don't know where the adults were--I had met them at dinner--but when the boys were running amok in the middle of the night, the adults were MIA.

In my case, I dealt with the boys directly. I asked once nicely. When that request was ignored, I gave them a direct order to shut up, get in their rooms, and not slam the doors anymore. Lo and behold, it worked like a charm.

So, yeah, I pretty much think that it's better to confront the problem indivduals politely but directly, rather than sit there and seethe.

However, I have to say that any youth group (Scout, school, church, sports team, or group of friends) that goes about without adult supervision is asking for trouble. One or two kids behave quite differently than larger groups. They egg each other on.

You absolutely did the right thing. Boy Scouts can be reasonable if you are direct. Although, I am very surprised there were no leaders around to take care of this.

[Marta]

... Although, I am very surprised there were no leaders around to take care of this.

So was I. Maybe, assuming the boys were in bed and peacefully sleeping, the leaders were drowning their sorrows in the bar in the basement?:D

[Tin Man]

So was I. Maybe, assuming the boys were in bed and peacefully sleeping, the leaders were drowning their sorrows in the bar in the basement?:D

I know you are kidding, but there is no drinking allowed by adults (and certainly not boys) on any scouting activity.

[Marta]

I know you are kidding, but there is no drinking allowed by adults (and certainly not boys) on any scouting activity.

I was kidding. I don't think there's a bar in the basement of the Highland Center, though there is a rec room area down there.

[SurferNerd]

Well I was once the boy scout on the AT, its what got me into going next year, and what brought me to love the outdoors. I've gone 200 miles over 3 years with them, troop 179. We were very respectful, and very friendly. We never slept in the shelters, we always slept in campsites nearby, because we felt the desire to give the shelters to the people who deserve them. We moved out of the way when requested, we ate off trails, we fulfilled the LNT. Our gear however...nightmare, average of 45lbs.

[Odd Thomas]

Our gear however...nightmare, average of 45lbs.


Yea, but those Eureka Timberlines sure were nice tents. One of ours outlasted a lawnshed in a storm!

[SurferNerd]

Haha, ohhh them tents.. We had individual Eureka 1 man tube tents. Our stoves were Sterno cans, we brought too many clothes, !?!Deodarant!?!, 5lb sleeping bags, and too many luxuries. Some even had camp chairs...***? Ahh, those trips are the backbone to why my packing for next year is so light. We had so much fun tho.

[Nearly Normal]

If you have trouble with a troop contact the leadership. Troop Number is on the sleeve.
When I was a Scout we never had trips without adult leaders. I thought it was a great experience.
Perhaps if you volunteer you could help instead of harp.
You know, pass along that hiking, camping, woodcraft, backpacking, LNT ethic knowledge. There are Scoutmaster Manuals for the rest you need to know.
If you camp near Scouts "be prepared".

[Peaks]

Sorry Lightfoot - You were obviously not in scouting or have no idea what it was about.. Scouting is a BOY run organization, unlike observations on the outside (I will give you that) I was a Senior Patrol Leader and the Adults took a clear back seat, I really ran the planning and organization of the group activity. Baden Powell's vision of leadership training had little to do with adults. In fact the new book asks boys to lead small groups on trips.

Just because it is boy run does not mean unsupervised by adults. You should expect to have 2 deep adult supervision at all times.

[earlyriser26]

I know you are kidding, but there is no drinking allowed by adults (and certainly not boys) on any scouting activity.

A guy I hike with is an Eagle Scout and he would say this rule has been broken a time or two.

[ki0eh]

I have seen scouts on the trail several times and they were always well manered and no trouble. The only time I was angry twards the leadership and scouts was once when hiking on a hot day I saw a pack of scouts eating and drinking a cooler full of trail magic left by a 05 thru hiker with a note on it saying this is for thru and section hikers please. I noticed the scouts had no back packs so it was a day hike and the cooler was almost empty as they drank the sodas and ate the candy bars that were in it. I felt bad myself for having 1 soda being I was only out for a 50 mile section and not a thru hiker myself.Thge worst part was there was a note on the cooler stating whom it was for.

Perhaps the Scouts had a finer understanding of the ATC trail magic guidelines than the donor: from http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/Trail%20Magic%20Suggestions8-3-07.pdf "Be hospitable to all. While many long-distance hikers will likely appreciate trail magic, be sure to make all trail users and volunteers feel welcome." ;)

[Tin Man]

A guy I hike with is an Eagle Scout and he would say this rule has been broken a time or two.

I am quite sure the no alcohol rule has be broken from time to time in some troops. Our troop is pretty diligent about no alcohol.

[Wise Old Owl]

A lot of troops are dilligent, the trouble appears on father son weekends and some of the less than perfect boys, hense the occational weeding out. Nobody wants to loose their charter.

[sly dog]

Perhaps the Scouts had a finer understanding of the ATC trail magic guidelines than the donor: from http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/Trail%20Magic%20Suggestions8-3-07.pdf "Be hospitable to all. While many long-distance hikers will likely appreciate trail magic, be sure to make all trail users and volunteers feel welcome." ;)

I am not trying to say they cant have it but if it were me I would feel bad taking it being thru hikers dont really have the money to splurge on such stuff. Also the scouts were parked about 100 yards away, I saw them walk to the parking lot, they couldn't stop at a store? Just because it is there doesnt mean you need to take it. But thats just me.

[Tin Man]

Scouts should provide for themselves and not take "magic" left for others. (But then again, a scout is taught to clean up the litter, which most so-called "magic" is anyway, but let's not go there again.)

A good leader would have caught this and remedied the situation. More than likely, the boys just didn't know any better.

[Plodderman]

Boy Scouts are an important part in helping develop a love for the outdoors. They may get in the road every once in a while but how can you take 15 teenagers anywhere and have them not be in the road. Glad to have them out hiking.

[Tin Man]

Boy Scouts are an important part in helping develop a love for the outdoors. They may get in the road every once in a while but how can you take 15 teenagers anywhere and have them not be in the road. Glad to have them out hiking.

thank you and I am very glad when I can actually get them to hike. electronic, push button snivelers in our troop, for the most part, but I get them out there once in a while

[Plodderman]

Yeah I know Tin Man but the effort is made. They may not like it now but later when they are looking for a hobby they will remember.

[Mags]

A Boy Scout trip to Mt. Lafayette in NH was directly responsible for my love of the outdoors.

http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=33

I may not agree with the Boy Scouts current policies (anti-gay, anti-atheist), but I can't deny the positive impact that the Boy Scouts have had on many people who would otherwise not have experienced the outdoors. Myself included.

[Tin Man]

Yeah I know Tin Man but the effort is made. They may not like it now but later when they are looking for a hobby they will remember.

When I was a kid, I couldn't get enough of the outdoors and the scouts was my ticket. My brother was opposite. But, now that I dragged him out there, he is a backpacking maniac. So, as long as I get one of my two sons to love it, they hopefully will share together later in life. I know for me, it has made my brother and I best friends. :cool:

[Plodderman]

Yea I have five children myself and four of them like the outdoors and the fifth is getting there.

[afisher99]

I, like most others, started off in Boy Scouts. Was exposed to the outdoors, and have nothing bad to say about the organization. I just prefer either solo camping for photography's sake (wildlife doesn't exist in groups of 30, haha), or with a couple of friends. As for post-Boy Scout life, I've never had a problem with them - except once. Sometimes shelters and designated campsites/grounds can get crowded, but if I get annoyed, I remember that I got my first love of the outdoors on Boy Scout organized trips, and I deal with it for a night. The only time with a problem was on top of High Point State Park in New Jersey. I had driven up there with my girlfriend (I know, I know! Driving up...) - and the monument there isn't on the AT, but it can be seen as the AT wanders through High Point State Park in Jersey. Anyways, long story short (too late), the Boy Scouts were eating lunch at a few tables provided, and they were throwing trash on the ground, which I would have assumed their leaders would have kept them in check. However, the leaders were just as bad as the kids. Monkey see, monkey do, I guess.

And, as a follow up to story, while skimming through the posts, I think that the leadership issue being brought up is a good one, and rightly pointed out. After I left scouts, my friends and I would go camping on our own (starting at about age 15 - 16), but the enjoyment of learning that was instilled in us by a good leader carried onto today, and especially the LNT ethics.

[mister krabs]

Scouts is THE source for my LNT ethic. To this day the last thing done before leaving camp is a complete site patrol for any garbage. Every campsite gets left better than I found it. These things were taught to me by my scoutmaster, and I am teaching my son the same.

I'm sure he'll find the pyrotechnical joys of bug spray without me showing him.

[Elmer]

i've been on the AT 21 years, met tons of scouts. 99.9% of the boys i've met have been great. it's the "leaders' that sucked


I couldn't agree more. I am an Assistant Scout Master and am EXTREMELY fortunate with the troop I am involved with. Outstanding kids, but more-so outstanding adult leaders.
Boys will act like boys....but good, dedicated and teaching adult leaders will help them act like men.

[OldStormcrow]

A Scout troop is only as good as it's leaders, and I've seen some of the best and some of the worst. The worst always seem to leave the most indelible memories. In Pisgah I have seen monstrous sized stacks of firewood (green) cut up by the energetic little goobers, only to be found the next morning partially charred after their unsuccessful attempts to light the fire-proof logs. Once, at a shelter north of Irwin TN I ran into a mess of them clambering all over the shelter (they were tenting), cooking inside the shelter (in perfect weather), washing their Ramen noodles out in the only water source for miles, etc. The leaders (3 adults) were reclining in front of their tent with alcohol-induced smiles on their blissfully ignorant faces as the youngsters ran amuck. Every so often one of the leaders would retire to the inside of the tent briefly, only to come back out and recline in an even happier state. There was one poor thru hiker from Hawaii in the shelter who looked even more miserable than myself with the noise and such. I was in a very similarly led troop when I was young, but only for about two weeks. We found one of our guys that was old enough to drive, decided to go backpacking without the leaders, had a great time and never looked back! My all-time worst experiences with noisy, disrespectful, annoying, etc. groups has been with church groups. Don't EVEN get me started telling tales about the havoc one of those groups can wreak!

[RockDoc]

I agree that scouts are ok, it's the leaders that I'm doubtful about.

Last year in July I climbed Katahdin, finishing off a 20 day section hike in Maine. A group of boy scouts (from Princeton, NJ) were there to climb Katahdin too, starting at the same time (7 am).

I summitted, spent an hour on top, and met the scouts on their way up resting (laying on the ground) at Thoreau Spring. Seems they were having some trouble. Many boys were complaining and whining about the hike, and the scout leaders were trying to prod them along like a bunch of drill sargents.

I got down and hitched into Millinocket by early afternoon. Stayed at the AT Lodge. Around 10 pm the scouts arrived, looking like something the cat dragged in. I'm glad that they got down OK, after 12 hours on the mountain. Some of those boys did not belong on Katahdin. Not quite "hiker material", as we say.

[Tin Man]

I agree that scouts are ok, it's the leaders that I'm doubtful about.

Last year in July I climbed Katahdin, finishing off a 20 day section hike in Maine. A group of boy scouts (from Princeton, NJ) were there to climb Katahdin too, starting at the same time (7 am).

I summitted, spent an hour on top, and met the scouts on their way up resting (laying on the ground) at Thoreau Spring. Seems they were having some trouble. Many boys were complaining and whining about the hike, and the scout leaders were trying to prod them along like a bunch of drill sargents.

I got down and hitched into Millinocket by early afternoon. Stayed at the AT Lodge. Around 10 pm the scouts arrived, looking like something the cat dragged in. I'm glad that they got down OK, after 12 hours on the mountain. Some of those boys did not belong on Katahdin. Not quite "hiker material", as we say.

The "not quite hiker material" quote should be attributed to the leaders. As the Clint Eastwood quote goes, "you got to know your limitations". Many adult leaders don't know or recognize their boys' limitations ... or have plan B ready when they reach the limit.

[mrc237]

I've paticipated in many BSA 50 miler hikes. The "not quite hiker material" boys were never insistant on participating. It was called "The Scoutmasters Invitational".

[f8lranger4x4]

While hiking Dragon's tooth in July I ran into a troop hiking the section to daleville they were very plesant to talk with. The only problem I had is they were bouncing all over the place and their was like 20 of them and they kinda crowded the place.

[TD55]

There are rules about "groups" hiking the trail. The shelters, privys, water sources and campsites are not designed to accomodate large groups. It is unfair when groups ignore the rules because they think they are in some special category. Just because you are a scout group, or a church group, or college group doesn't mean you get to ignore the rules. It mostly sucks when a shelter, WATER SOURCE OR PRIVY gets invaded by a large group. What are you teaching these kids? Are you teaching them that it is OK to ignore rules and be a nuisance? And by the way, it ain't my responsibility or job to help raise somebody elses kid or to help someone else raise someone elses kid.

[brianos]

Just returned from a weekend trek with my son's Scout Troop. We hiked between Caledonia & Pine Grove Furnace in southern PA. This was one of several 'shakedown' treks we're doing to prepare for a 12-day high adventure trip to the Philmont Scout ranch in New Mexico next June.

In addition to getting some miles under our boots, we also put our LNT book-learning into practice. We packed out all our trash, as well as other trash we found along the trail. We also practiced Philmont's strict KP procedure of straining dishwater through a sieve, then packing out any particles left in the sieve. Cooked using backpacking stoves. No campfire. To lessen the impact of our large group, we split into 4 small crews, with two crews hiking north->south and the other two hiking south->north.

One of our Scouts is very interested in environmental science, so much so that he brought along a water test kit! BTW the pH this past weekend from the creek just south of Quarry Gap, Birch Creek and Toms Run all registered around 6.8 with low alkalinity ;) Also let another hiker who was short on water borrow our water filter.

I'm sure the boys weren't perfect (definitely too loud at times), but I do know they learned quite a bit about putting the BSA Outdoor Code and LNT into action.

[bfitz]

What can you do? Kids will be kids. For that matter people will be people. I have seen far worse behavior from a group of thruhikers than I've ever seen from any group of boy scouts. Cant judge em all from the individual behavior of some, or even many.

[Lone Wolf]

There are rules about "groups" hiking the trail. The shelters, privys, water sources and campsites are not designed to accomodate large groups. It is unfair when groups ignore the rules because they think they are in some special category. Just because you are a scout group, or a church group, or college group doesn't mean you get to ignore the rules. It mostly sucks when a shelter, WATER SOURCE OR PRIVY gets invaded by a large group. What are you teaching these kids? Are you teaching them that it is OK to ignore rules and be a nuisance? And by the way, it ain't my responsibility or job to help raise somebody elses kid or to help someone else raise someone elses kid.

have you ever been to springer mtn. from mid-march - mid-april?

[Wise Old Owl]

There are rules about "groups" hiking the trail. The shelters, privys, water sources and campsites are not designed to accommodate large groups. It is unfair when groups ignore the rules because they think they are in some special category. Just because you are a scout group, or a church group, or college group doesn't mean you get to ignore the rules. It mostly sucks when a shelter, WATER SOURCE OR PRIVY gets invaded by a large group. What are you teaching these kids? Are you teaching them that it is OK to ignore rules and be a nuisance? And by the way, it ain't my responsibility or job to help raise somebody else's kid or to help someone else raise someone else's kid.

Are you nuts or anti social? - The scouts have their own set of rules of LNT and follow the park's rules. I am with LW on this you haven't seen the spring pack traveling north? I get really disappointed when I see posts like this. Stop whining.

[Lone Wolf]

Are you nuts or anti social? - The scouts have their own set of rules of LNT and follow the park's rules. I am with LW on this you haven't seen the spring pack traveling north? I get really disappointed when I see posts like this. Stop whining.

yup. packs of wannabe thru-hikers cause more damage year after year in georgia than any scout group could possibly cause

[Roots]

yup. packs of wannabe thru-hikers cause more damage year after year in georgia than any scout group could possibly cause
Totally agree! I have been around both this year. Much worse of a problem in April with the thru's than the 3 different encounters I've had with scout troops this year.

[gold bond]

There are rules about "groups" hiking the trail. The shelters, privys, water sources and campsites are not designed to accomodate large groups. It is unfair when groups ignore the rules because they think they are in some special category. Just because you are a scout group, or a church group, or college group doesn't mean you get to ignore the rules. It mostly sucks when a shelter, WATER SOURCE OR PRIVY gets invaded by a large group. What are you teaching these kids? Are you teaching them that it is OK to ignore rules and be a nuisance? And by the way, it ain't my responsibility or job to help raise somebody elses kid or to help someone else raise someone elses kid.

Your right...it is not your responsibilty to "raise" some one elses kid. The mission of the scouting program is not to "raise" a kid but to "teach" a boy to make "ethical" decisions over a lifetime. With your attitude and yes attitude is everything you shouldn't even try!

[bfitz]

Thru hikers are far worse on and for the trail than boy scouts. Of course the trail would be best if only I were allowed to use it. But if it was just me and the boyscouts that'd be okay too. The people I hate the most are the cranky complainers who think they own the woods and no one better make any noise or talk on their cell phone or stay up past dark drinking beers because "this shelter is mine and I want to sleep!" Get a tent, jerkwad and sleep away from the crowd. It's our planet too.

[Blissful]

And by the way, it ain't my responsibility or job to help raise somebody elses kid or to help someone else raise someone elses kid.


I'm glad my hubby who is a Scoutmaster is trying to make a difference in a boy's life - many of whom come from broken homes, have other difficulties, etc. Some boys need dad figures in their lives, not to raise them but to guide them into becomming decent, moral, honorable men who respect others.

[Blissful]

have you ever been to springer mtn. from mid-march - mid-april?


You got that right. There was a 2006 thru hiker reunion in full progress at Springer Mtn shelter when we were up there last year. People and tents everywhere...all having fun and old timers talking to newbies like us about what to expect...

[gold bond]

I'm glad my hubby who is a Scoutmaster is trying to make a difference in a boy's life - many of whom come from broken homes, have other difficulties, etc. Some boys need dad figures in their lives, not to raise them but to guide them into becomming decent, moral, honorable men who respect others.

Well said Ms. Blissfull! I like that..."not to raise but to guide" I am as well a Scoutmaster and see the same challenges in our area. God bless all them Scoutmasters out there!:sun

[mikec]

I tented with scouts at Mashipacong and Brink RD Shelters in NJ while doing a 2003 section hike. They were very well behaved.

[TD55]

Got no problem with scouts hiking in the fashion dscribed by briano in post #189. Simuiar to how I hiked the AT and Philmont as a scout in the 60's. That is different than a poorly led group of 20 or 30 unruly kids, but I agree, I would rather run into them than the early months of the NOBO bubble. Unlike what seems like a very beg amount of hikers today, I am not out there for a social event.
Thats my attitude and I'm stickin' to it.

[gold bond]

Got no problem with scouts hiking in the fashion dscribed by briano in post #189. Simuiar to how I hiked the AT and Philmont as a scout in the 60's. That is different than a poorly led group of 20 or 30 unruly kids, but I agree, I would rather run into them than the early months of the NOBO bubble. Unlike what seems like a very beg amount of hikers today, I am not out there for a social event.
Thats my attitude and I'm stickin' to it.

No matter how poor it is!! Cheer up there grumpy...hey I'll even give ya a bananna:banana Now thats better ain't it!

[emerald]

gb, I'll bet TD55 never hiked on the A.T. the way my troop did in the 1950s.

Back in those days, the local Boy Scout camp had 3 burros and they hiked with said burros on the A.T.:eek: From what I've heard, all these people complaining about scouts ought to have hiked with Jenny, Pete and Repeat or was it Re-Pete? Regardless, they would only march in that order!:rolleyes:

Everything I've heard indicates those 3 were more trouble than an entire troop of scouts in a small shelter.

[TD55]

Wow, you have some ability there Gold Bond. In post #195 you judged my ability as a parent and grandparent, now because Im not joining in on the BSA cheerfest, you judge me as grumpy, maybe you should put Judge in front of your name. My attitude is that placating doesn't help anyone do anything, unless living in a make believe world is what you want. I thought Don H started this thread to hear about how scouts might be impacting the trail and other hikers. I put in what I had to say. If it seemed harsh, so be it. So far I have heard plenty about me and my opinion, attitude, whatever, but nobody has answered the question I asked that stirred ya'all up. If the rules say only a specified and limited size group is allowed at a specific site or to conduct certain activities, is it ok to ignore the rule if you are a scout, church or school group, and how does that impact the scout?

[TD55]

Shades of Gray, you are correct, I never hiked the AT in the 50's. My first hike on the AT wasn't until '64 or '65.

[Dances with Mice]

If the rules say only a specified and limited size group is allowed at a specific site or to conduct certain activities, is it ok to ignore the rule if you are a scout, church or school group, and how does that impact the scout? No it isn't. Which rules, whose rules? Now are you talking about a park rule? Or do you mean a set of camping guidelines?

[TD55]

Park rules. Whoever is managing the site. Rules made to protect water sources and prevent privys from overflow. I could care less about shelter space or camp sites. You can always move on.

[emerald]

Of what use are guidelines if they only apply to others? I've always treated them the same as rules, regulations and laws and engaged in a policy of self-enforcement since it always seemed to be the most effective anyway.

[Dances with Mice]

OK, park rules. Which park? If you claim someone is violating a the 'rules' you should be able to state the rules and the ruling authority.

It's possible for a large group to hike and camp and still not violate LNT guidelines.

Being a little outside the LNT guidelines is not the same as being a little outside the law.

[gold bond]

Wow, you have some ability there Gold Bond. In post #195 you judged my ability as a parent and grandparent, now because Im not joining in on the BSA cheerfest, you judge me as grumpy, maybe you should put Judge in front of your name. My attitude is that placating doesn't help anyone do anything, unless living in a make believe world is what you want. I thought Don H started this thread to hear about how scouts might be impacting the trail and other hikers. I put in what I had to say. If it seemed harsh, so be it. So far I have heard plenty about me and my opinion, attitude, whatever, but nobody has answered the question I asked that stirred ya'all up. If the rules say only a specified and limited size group is allowed at a specific site or to conduct certain activities, is it ok to ignore the rule if you are a scout, church or school group, and how does that impact the scout?

Dang dude I gave ya a bananna don't that count for something? I'm not judging you as grumpy I know your grumpy! I can say that because of my "abilities"! I am only reading what you are writing and it does have a tone to it. As far as I know the shelters are first come first serve and will hold as many as they can untill someone falls out and the tent sites will hold as many as they can till a tent rolls off the mountain. I have always made room for one more and I have never been turned away from a shelter or tent site. As far as impacting the trail the scouts probably do as much or more trail maintance as you have ever done on the AT. Sure hiking in large groups is not a good idea but if they do I'm sure they do not do anymore damage than the 2000 thru's that start a year!Have you ever been on top of springer at the start of a season? So what are the "rules" exactly? When hiking becomes so rule infested that I got to worry about how I do it then it'll be time to move on to trampolines or something! As far as the BSA "cheerfest", check out who your astronauts are, your senators and congressmen are. How about some of your local town leaders are. They where not led by babysitters or as you stated a guy "just raising" kids. They had Scoutmasters! Thats why they are the men they are today. Thats what you stated that caught my attention. So here's you another bananna...have a great day and HYOH!!:banana

[gold bond]

gb, I'll bet TD55 never hiked on the A.T. the way my troop did in the 1950s.

Back in those days, the local Boy Scout camp had 3 burros and they hiked with said burros on the A.T.:eek: From what I've heard, all these people complaining about scouts ought to have hiked with Jenny, Pete and Repeat or was it Re-Pete? Regardless, they would only march in that order!:rolleyes:

Everything I've heard indicates those 3 were more trouble than an entire troop of scouts in a small shelter.

Het Shades I was hiking on the AT and met up with a young lady who had two goats last winter. Bet old TD55 would have had a fit if he would have run into her!

[emerald]

Being a little outside the LNT guidelines is not the same as being a little outside the law.

I have observed there are more than just a few who are not content to remain inside. Some it would seem just plain refuse to be confined.

[emerald]

I was hiking on the AT and met up with a young lady who had two goats last winter. Bet old TD55 would have had a fit if he would have run into her!

Probably just out clearing brush.:welcome

[Pootz]

I had a negative experience in 2007 during my thru hike with boy scouts. It was on May 19th. There was a group of 50 or more boy scouts staying at the Prickle Branch Shelter, they were tenting everywhere around the shelter. The following morning the entire group came up to Dragon's tooth. The leader and scouts were polite, but the experience of having so many boy scouts in the same place was not positive. I had a simular experience with 15 or 20 boy scouts over memorial day weekend at Bear Fence Mtn. Hut in the shenandoah's this year.

The problem I see is not with scouts but with the large numbers they hike and camp in. The shelter areas on the AT are not set up to handle number this large. They need to camp in actual camp grounds like the ones available in the shendoahs not at shelters if there group size is over 10 people.

The ATC should work with the Boy Scouts to try to educate them and eliminate this problem.

That being said I think it is great that scout leader are willing to take on such a role, and give the kids these kind of experiences. Intruducing young people to the AT, hiking and camping is a great thing when done correctly.

[gold bond]

Pootz I do strongly agree...50 is way to many! I did not think a sight would even hold that many whether it was a tent site or shelter site. Most troops and I say most ina not so generalized way will only take their experienced hikers. Usually 14 yrs old and at least first class with at least 1-2 shake down hikes under their belt. I agree with you and would wish that the AT would reach out to the scouters and come up with a plan. Thanks for the kind words on leaders. I will take that one step further to include church youth leaders and lets don't forget the Girl Sccout leaders!

[TD55]

I would not mind running into a girl with qoats, nor would I mind scouts with burro's. Dnces with Mice, I thought I detected some reason and rational thinking on your part. I was wrong. You mention rules and how one must be able to name the specific rule, than you go on about guidelines. We are talking about the behavior of boy scouts in this thread. If you see one pissing on a tent site, do you have to quote the specific rule?
Gold Bond, I have never been on the AT that I didn't perform some kind of maintenence. I carry a small hatchet or machette and always will work on a spring if I happen upon one that needs attention. You can continue to judge, but really dude, it shows how insecure you are that you need to attack people you know nothing about. I started trail maint. as a scout over 40 years ago. I've donated my share of funds to both the AT and the scouts. And it I if I am grumpy, or want to be grumpy, or appear to be grumpy, so what? Who made you the expert judge? Where can I get one of them badges? I hope that when scouts read this thread the percieve that being tolerent and listening to what other have to say is a value and good charactor trait, and that being an opionated buffoon ain't.

[Dances with Mice]

Dnces with Mice, I thought I detected some reason and rational thinking on your part. I was wrong. You mention rules and how one must be able to name the specific rule, than you go on about guidelines. We are talking about the behavior of boy scouts in this thread. If you see one pissing on a tent site, do you have to quote the specific rule? And I'm sure you know how important your opinion is to me. I'm just trying to figure out what your complaint is.

There are indeed rules for AT use and if the Scouts were using the Trail for commercial purposes, riding wheeled vehicles on the footpath or committing vandalism then they were in violation of useage rules, perhaps even specific laws, and I would report them.

Voluntary guidelines for LNT are not legally binding. There is a reason for using different words like 'rules', 'laws', and 'guidelines' and I try to use them very carefully. You may not. I'm trying to understand exactly what you are trying to communicate. If I see someone pissing on a tent I wouldn't call the sheriff. If they arrived at the campsite on a mountain bike I would.

Saying that a group is violating LNT guidelines based strictly on headcount may be inaccurate. A BSA Troop of 3 or 4 dozen could fit into the Springer Mtn shelter area and practice pristine LNT guidelines. They couldn't at the Blood Mtn Shelter. You haven't been forthcoming in providing specifics outside of tent pissing and privy filling.

The bottom line is that it isn't overuse that bothers me. If I were to arrive at the section of the AT I maintain and find a large Troop of Scouts there I would be thrilled. Because all of them will remember the trip, maybe a third will come back with the Troop the next year, maybe 5 percent will come back one day with just their fathers, maybe a couple will even return on a backpacking trip when they outgrow Scouting, and maybe, just maybe, one of them will join the local maintaing club when they get older.

The worse thing for the Trail would be for me to never see anyone on my section.

[TD55]

Dances with Mice - Fair enough, I get your point. Perhaps it isn't the rules or guidlines that really count, but rather the adherence of scouts to thier own law. Draining almost every drop of water out of every spring on a section in PA in August is not helpful or courtious or kind to others. If you are in the NOBO bubble you know what to expect. If you are way ahead of it or way behind it running into a troop of 20, 30, or more scouts can have a serious impact. Is thier a rule to cover that, ya, I think thier is.

[Tin Man]

I have taken our scout troop hiking on various parts of the AT in NJ, NY and CT and we have never camped on the AT. There are plenty of nearby youth group campsites designed for large numbers of scouts. Someday, I hope to take a smaller group of scouts backpacking on the AT to show them how to hike, camp and be respectful of others, even the whiners.

[gold bond]

Speaking of attacking bubba you are one to talk. You used "scouting" or "scouts" as a general phrase. There is alot of troops that use the trail and do it alot better than some of the more experienced hikers or even the thru hikers. I would say a higher percentage of scouts use the AT or any trail in the manner that you would agree on. So you have attacked scouts and scouting in general not just one or two troops. I don't claim to be a expert in any field and I learn something new everyday but I live with grumpy...I know what grumpy is!Brother you be grumpy. I don't mind and even invite corrective critisism in the correct form but I do love scouting and what it stands for.I will not tolerate someone that belittles scouts or scouters because they are doing something that they do not agree with.If you are a Eagle scout one of the pledges that you took was to give back to scouting.If you want to, step up and give back to scouting. Use your knowledge and skills and help correct some of what you think is wrong. Scouting builds character and if you were a scout 40 years ago you have definatley forgot some of the traits and what it stands for. I invite you to go back and read your posts and some of the replies that I and others have posted. Maybe you will then see what tolerant is all about.

[gold bond]

Dances with Mice - Fair enough, I get your point. Perhaps it isn't the rules or guidlines that really count, but rather the adherence of scouts to thier own law. Draining almost every drop of water out of every spring on a section in PA in August is not helpful or courtious or kind to others. If you are in the NOBO bubble you know what to expect. If you are way ahead of it or way behind it running into a troop of 20, 30, or more scouts can have a serious impact. Is thier a rule to cover that, ya, I think thier is.

Brother you witnessed a miracle! I have never seen a group "drain" a spring. I have been to Philmont when you couldn't even buy water but when we found a spring and we would be the third or fourth crew in line there was always water left...I swear you witnessed a miracle!

[TD55]

Sorry Gold Bond, I was referring to spring as both the actual output from the spring and the resevoir. When you have a spring that produces a constant flow, you are correct, there is not a problem. There is a problem when you have a spring that fills a small resevior of only a gallon or less of water. During dry periods it may take a long time to fill. Hence if you take all the water out of the resevoir it could take an hour or more to fill back up. So, under normal conditions the sharing of the water resource may be difficult, but with 20 or 30 individuals at one shot at each spring it becomes over use. Go back to my post where I stated I don't have a problem with patrol sized groups. In my scouting days that ment 8 boys. Add 2 leaders and you have a group of 10. If you are argueing for the acceptance of large full troop sized groups of 30 to 60 individuals than spit it out. Just say you think its ok to have that sized group on the trail.

[emerald]

So, under normal conditions the sharing of the water resource may be difficult, but with 20 or 30 individuals at one shot at each spring it becomes over use. Go back to my post where I stated I don't have a problem with patrol sized groups. In my scouting days that ment 8 boys. Add 2 leaders and you have a group of 10.

I'd like to know where on the A.T. the number of people belonging to a group drawing water for their own individual use from a spring on public land is limited or on something other than a first-come, first-served basis. Never heard of any such thing.

Perhaps that's why DWM wants to know the source. While people are entitled to impose whatever restrictions they choose upon themselves, it's something altogether different to impose one's own restrictions upon another.

ATC's LNT guidelines (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.788825/k.8CB0/Leave_No_Trace.htm) suggest limiting group size to 10 although day-hiking groups may be as large as 25.

Some people might like hiking in the manner of imprinted geese. I don't care to participate in such hikes, but I understand and accept such hiking falls within the guidelines and try to avoid encountering such groups by picking times and locations other than where they might be anticipated.

[gold bond]

No sir 20 -30 is way to many but can be done in a correct way. Like you say groups of 8-10 at differant intervals, usually 1-2 miles apart and camping at differant locations. Our troop would never attempt that many. Like I stated in a early post we only take on a hike of the AT kind a scout that is 13 and first class with a minimum of 2-3 "shakedown" hikes.I think that maturity is a bigger part than anything. The trail is no place for horse play. Thats why a rank and age plays a big part in our hiking program. Some may disagree with that but I would rather have a scout wait and be mad than get hurt.I also agree with you on the spring and resiviour situation. I spent a long night at Wyah Bald's new shelters spring last October just trying to fill up a liter bottle. Aggrivating doesn't even begin to describe it!

[emerald]

The situation described concerning large groups and springs may well fall under ATC's LNT #7. I believe a better place for larger than patrol-sized groups to camp would be off-trail at nearby developed campgrounds.

There would be ways to conduct such group hikes even in eastern Pennsylvania when many or even most springs on the A.T. are dry. It just takes a bit of planning.

I'd like to see one or more 50-milers available here where scouts could hike from developed campground to developed campground. I have some ideas about where such hikes might be possible and once popularized and promoted, they would divert some of the overnight use off the A.T. where facilities better equipped to handle such groups would be or are now available.

[gold bond]

Shades I would really like to see what your plans are. Hopefully this could lead to a good thing. This is what I'm talking about....caring not contraversy!

[TD55]

Controversy, ain't no controversy, just a whole lot of nonsense and unjustified attacks with the use of made up stuff and false allegations 'caus of some poor perception. Lot of "I'm better than you" attitude thrown at someone you do not know a thing about. In the end however, it appears ya'll figured out that there are guidlines about the size of a group. Well, at least ya know now.

[emerald]

Actually, the A.T. in the county where I reside is just over 50 miles. I don't know if any scout groups have ever hiked it all as a single multiple-day hike which met the requirements for the 50-Miler Award (http://scouting.org/boyscouts/advancementandawards/meritbadges/fifty.aspx). It's a concept that continues to pester me. Maybe there's a reason it won't let me alone.

What I've described may be possible now using existing facilities, but it would work better with some improvements and better access to them. I could see it working if there is a desire for it among those who operate the facilities. It might also be a way to get some needed work done.

I'm thinking it would involve hiking in patrols and camping in patrols near one another at campgrounds. It might also be an activity for older scouts from different troops the week of summer camp. I'm sure I'm suggesting nothing new and it's already being done elsewhere with little publicity.

Maybe what I'm getting at is not something to be promoted heavily, but rather information that could be made available upon request by troops or individual scouts with an interest.

[gold bond]

Controversy, ain't no controversy, just a whole lot of nonsense and unjustified attacks with the use of made up stuff and false allegations 'caus of some poor perception. Lot of "I'm better than you" attitude thrown at someone you do not know a thing about. In the end however, it appears ya'll figured out that there are guidlines about the size of a group. Well, at least ya know now.

Wow who pee'd in your pebbles! Here's a bananna:banana....have a great day!

[brianos]

Shades of Gray - BSA's Ten Mile River (southern New York, a bit north of Port Jervis) offers a trek program that would fit your description. In addition to the usual weeklong base-camp, Scouters can participate in a 50-mile trek, taking on activities from the different camp areas. IIRC trekkers can do rock-climbing, small boat sailing, swimming, etc in addition to the trek.

I always keep my eye out for new places to take our Scouts. Recently learned about the Loyalsock-Link loop trail... farther than we usually drive from north Delaware, but sounds like a great place to explore. Closer to home for us is part of the Mason-Dixon trail, but we haven't looked into camping along it.

[emerald]

When I was a scout, a group from my troop earned the 50-Miler Award by canoeing 50+ on the Delaware River. We also rafted on Pine Creek, hiked at Valley Forge and did all kinds of other stuff I remember still.:)

[emerald]

In the end however, it appears ya'll figured out that there are guidelines about the size of a group. Well, at least ya know now.

I'm not at all sure who ya'll includes or if it matters, but you're not the 1st to point out what you just did.:rolleyes:

Oh, I know of at least one A.T. land management agency which has a clear policy with respect to group size. They have some other regs certain individuals don't like either, especially when they are enforced.:welcome

[TD55]

Shades, that would be you and Goldbond. And besides Ten Mile, which is great, check into Bayshore at BlueMountain.

[TD55]

BTW Shades, during your 1980 thru, did you by any chance run into a guy hiking in paratrooper boots with a crossbreed golden lab/redbone ( looked like the mutt in Josie Wales ). I cooked bisguits in bacon grease or fat back and shared alot of them.

[gold bond]

Shades, that would be you and Goldbond. And besides Ten Mile, which is great, check into Bayshore at BlueMountain.

OK What did I miss....no slammin' Bond untill I'm ready! BTW TD55 here's your daily bananna:banana.....feel better now!

[gold bond]

Controversy, ain't no controversy, just a whole lot of nonsense and unjustified attacks with the use of made up stuff and false allegations 'caus of some poor perception. Lot of "I'm better than you" attitude thrown at someone you do not know a thing about. In the end however, it appears ya'll figured out that there are guidlines about the size of a group. Well, at least ya know now.

You really need to go check out some of the documentry DVD's on the AT. If you will watch them and pay attention there big guy you'll notice that there are very large groups hiking together and the shelters and sites are slammed full.Where were the trail police then! Oh yeah that deserves two bananna's:banana:banana

[TD55]

There is an appropriate way for a large troop sized unit to hike on the AT. Coordination with the maintenence club and NPS managing the specific section is all it takes. They know which sections at a specifed time frame can handle the large sized group. If the troop volunteers to do a project on the trail, the club and NPS will be glad to help make arrangements. That is the way it was done when I was involved in scouting, at least with the two troops I was involved with.
This thread is about Boy Scouts and the negative or positive effects they have on the trail and other hikers, and what kind of experienes hikers have had with scouts on the trail. All those bannanas I kept getting sent makes me feel like Im feeding a monkey

[emerald]

Shades, during your 1980 thru, did you by any chance run into a guy hiking in paratrooper boots with a crossbreed golden lab/redbone ...

It would be entirely possible although I don't have a recollection of such an experience. I assume you were a scouter in 1980 and are inquiring into your own impacts which you are not likely to believe were anything but positive.

I thought you were against large groups on the A.T.? I wouldn't know why you would contact NPS rather than ATC for assistance with activity planning unless, of course, the location(s) of your planned activities would be managed directly by NPS as would be GSMNP or SNP for instance.

[gold bond]

Oh contrar mie amigo....I'm a feedin' the monkey......Here ya go there big guy:banana...have a great day.....chillax a little and breath deep....in with the good air...out with the bad air.....take a long look in the mirror and repeat after me...." I'm nice and dog gone it people like me!" I believe in a earlier post I spoke on hiking with a large group!

[TD55]

Shades- Was not a Boy Scout in 1980. That would have been early to mid 60's, and it was scouting that introduced me to the AT. In 1980 I did about 4 months on the AT. Thought maybe we might have crossed paths.

[Don H]

I'll be taking my son's troop on a hike in Maryland from Gathland State Park to Washington Monument State Park, about 10 miles total on 10/17 -19. Friday night we will be staying at Maple Tree Campground, Saturday night at the Dahlgren Backpacker's Campground. We will have about 12 Scouts and 4 adults going and this is the first time on the AT for all of them. I hope they get the "AT bug" like I have. I'm sure they will all be on their best behavior. If you see us, stop and say hi.

[Dances with Mice]

Put all 4 adults in the back, give the map to the SPL and put him in the front.

If he has a question about the route let the PL's get together and find a solution.

I don't know why it took me 2 years to learn that.

[Don H]

Our troop completed their first AT hike last weekend. We had a great time and ran into some other troops backpacking too. The highlight of the trip was meeting SOBO thru hikers Wheeler, Mousetrap and Johnny and his dog Cash at Dahlgren campground. They came over to our campfire and shared stories and answered questions from the Scouts. I didn't realize how successful the trip had been until the next troop meeting when I asked those who hiked to share their favorite thing about the trip with the others. They all said "We're all Thruhiker want-a-be's!

[Tin Man]

Our troop completed their first AT hike last weekend. We had a great time and ran into some other troops backpacking too. The highlight of the trip was meeting SOBO thru hikers Wheeler, Mousetrap and Johnny and his dog Cash at Dahlgren campground. They came over to our campfire and shared stories and answered questions from the Scouts. I didn't realize how successful the trip had been until the next troop meeting when I asked those who hiked to share their favorite thing about the trip with the others. They all said "We're all Thruhiker want-a-be's!

Funny, on our first troop hike on the AT, we didn't run into any thru's, but one of the older boys kept asking questions about thru-hiking and said that is what he wanted to do after college.

[Siegeofmalta]

Oh to be young again.

[Surplusman]

I got into hiking and backpacking in the Scouts in the late 1950's. Almost all of our leaders were WWII vets and some were still on active duty. They DID make us toe the mark according to the camping principles of the day. Ed Garvey was our mentor for backpacking and sometimes he would join us for a day or two on our hike thru SNP. I do have to admit, though, that we did overload ourselves. We sounded like a bunch of junkmen strolling down the AT. When I got back into backpacking about 10 years ago, even though camping ethics and equipment have changed (for the better I may add) I still reverted to my Boy Scout training from our leaders on how to conduct oneself in general when in the wilderness and to follow the rules. I just saw an obit on one of my fellow Scouts and it made me realize how long ago that all seemed. We had a lot of fun hiking the AT and it was an experience I have never forgotten. By the way, I was a member of BS Troop 681, Falls Church, VA.

[Wise Old Owl]

Put all 4 adults in the back, give the map to the SPL and put him in the front.

If he has a question about the route let the PL's get together and find a solution.

I don't know why it took me 2 years to learn that.

awesome you da man!

[skinewmexico]

Put all 4 adults in the back, give the map to the SPL and put him in the front.

If he has a question about the route let the PL's get together and find a solution.

I don't know why it took me 2 years to learn that.

Cool, the old boy led troop thing.

[MintakaCat]

We sounded like a bunch of junkmen strolling down the AT.

Reminds me of when I joined the Boy Scouts in the early 70s. We did a ton of hiking and an older kid had a backpack full of C-Rations that he got from his older brother in Vietnam. I was amazed at all the stuff he had when we camped that night. I had never seen that stuff before. I mean bread in a can, how cool is that?

Anyway, the scout leader made him pack out all those empty cans. And he did sound like a junkman going down the trail that day.

[Lemni Skate]

I never have had any trouble with scouts. They might be a little loud simply from the size of their group, but not because of any poor behavior.

Only two bits of advice:

1. If you've got more than 10 then split up into two groups.

2. Tell the boys not to STARE at my daughter. I don't like that.