View Full Version : Trail relocating question
Swiss Roll
02-01-2008, 11:52
In the "Lamest part of the trail" thread (before it was hijacked to motorcycling) several people mentioned SNP as a particularly lame section. How did the trail get located there in the first place? Is there any chance that the trail would ever get relocated to the Alleghenies of West Virginia, a much more wild and remote area? If so, would it make sense to relocate the PA section westward and out of the rocks? I know this is far-fetched, just consider it a 'what if' kind of question.
What leads you to believe everywhere but the A.T. in Pennsylvania is free of rocks?
In the "Lamest part of the trail" thread (before it was hijacked to motorcycling) several people mentioned SNP as a particularly lame section.
The history of the trail in SNP was incredibly acrimonious, and was the basis for the life-long feud between Benton MacKaye and Myron Avery, and MacKaye's subsequent departure from the ATC.
In a nutshell: MacKaye didn't want the road up there, and felt that ATC didn't fight it hard enough. Avery was ready to "compromise" with the road-builders and to relocate the trail to accommodate the road.
The basic path of the trail was designed to take advantage of existing trail systems as much as possible (both GMC and AMC predate ATC by decades.) There was also a serious logistical problem of getting across the Hudson River.
The Great Depression had a lot to do with the serious "infrastructure" of the trail, through places like SNP. Specifically, public-works programs like WPA and CCC. (Civilian Conservation Corps.)
Swiss Roll
02-01-2008, 12:13
I plead total ignorance of PA. I thought I read somewhere that west of the current AT corridor it is relatively more mountainous and less rocky. Forgive me if I'm wrong on that count. I was more interested in the WV/SNP question. I was just extrapolating into PA.
What leads you to believe everywhere but the A.T. in Pennsylvania is free of rocks?
Excellent point. Walking SOBO thru PA I kept wondering when the rocks would end. Maryland? Nope. Northern VA. Nope. I think by Pearisburg they mellowed out a bit. :D
Uh oh, I've now been around long enough to dredge: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30221
I can say from personal experience that the GET route (either choice) does not move OUT of the "PA rocks", but rather INTO them! :D
One would have to route a trail entirely outside the northern half of the Valley and Ridge Province (one suggested new name for that area after its defining characteristic: "Tiltrock Country" ) to not go through the "PA rocks" - say, up the Allegheny Trail, over a thought-about but unbuilding connector to the Laurel Highlands Trail, then either east to the northern third of PA's Mid State Trail or northwest to the North Country NST.
Tennessee Viking
02-01-2008, 14:21
From what it looks like, the Great Eastern Trail system is already taking over the Alleghany section.
From what it looks like, the Great Eastern Trail system is already taking over the Alleghany section.
The GET will be routed over only the southern 60 miles or so of Allegheny Trail. That path actually (skipping a gap) continues to the PA/WV border near Morgantown.
It is interesting the the Appalachian Mountain Trail does not go through the mountainous part of the most mountainous state east of the Mississippi river(WV).
Kirby
It is interesting the the Appalachian Mountain Trail does not go through the mountainous part of the most mountainous state east of the Mississippi river(WV).
AND it goes through NEW JERSEY!
(ducking...)
Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-01-2008, 16:53
Swiss Roll, the AT won't be moved. Hopefully, the GET will encompass some of the more beautiful, remote and wild pathways available in WV.
I've done considerable hiking in WV and have to say it beats anything I've seen so far on the AT by a country mile. Spectacular views, waterfalls, bio-diversity and you can go for many, many days without ever seeing anyone else. Don't recall ever seeing a shelter there. It is one of the best hiking venues in the US IMO.
I've done considerable hiking in WV and have to say it beats anything I've seen so far on the AT by a country mile.
And how much of the AT have you seen, Dino? :-?
Swiss Roll
02-01-2008, 17:08
Thanks for the kind words, dino. I am a native WVian and its always nice to get some props from peeps. I was just wondering why the original AT wasn't routed that way given that it's much more remote than the Shennies and much of the eastern third of the state is federal forest land. They could've just taken a left (NOBO) after Mcafee knob (or Tinker's Cliff or Dragon Tooth, I haven't been there yet so I don't know which comes last) and headed into the Mountain State. Is it that MacKaye and Avery wanted it to be closer to the population areas on purpose? Or maybe it's a good thing that it's not more of a presence in my home state-kinda keeps that 'best kept secret' thing going.
Is it that MacKaye and Avery wanted it to be closer to the population areas on purpose?
Yes. . . . .
Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-01-2008, 17:17
And how much of the AT have you seen, Dino? :-?This is the she-dino and I've probably hiked about 1,400 miles of the AT. As a couple section hiking, we have hiked considerably less and that is what is reflected in our journal.
This is the she-dino and I've probably hiked about 1,400 miles of the AT. As a couple section hiking, we have hiked considerably less and that is what is reflected in our journal.
Well, either WV is far more beautiful than I imagined, or else I have to wonder which 1400 miles of AT you've seen. You seem awfully dismissive of the AT at times. I wonder why. :-?
Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-01-2008, 17:37
Well, either WV is far more beautiful than I imagined, or else I have to wonder which 1400 miles of AT you've seen. You seem awfully dismissive of the AT at times. I wonder why. :-?Because I've hiked a lot of trails that are wilder, more beautiful and more difficult. I don't deny the AT is beautiful in many places, and remote in a few places, but it isn't wild or remote in the way many other trails are - the kind of remote where you can hike for two weeks without hitting a town or crossing a major road. Many nights you can see lights and hear civilization on the AT.
The AT is also on the low end of the difficulty scale. It is extremely well marked and maintained. Water sources are close together. Camping spots abound. There is no desert and very little mileage above the tree line. Most of it is well-graded with switchbacks. The only true river without a bridge is the Kennebec and it has a ferry.
I have to admit, I miss being able to do the more challenging type of hiking I used to do.
Go to WV and see how beautiful it is for yourself.
wilconow
02-01-2008, 17:57
I was just wondering why the original AT wasn't routed that way given that it's much more remote than the Shennies and much of the eastern third of the state is federal forest land. They could've just taken a left (NOBO) after Mcafee knob (or Tinker's Cliff or Dragon Tooth, I haven't been there yet so I don't know which comes last) and headed into the Mountain State. Is it that MacKaye and Avery wanted it to be closer to the population areas on purpose? Or maybe it's a good thing that it's not more of a presence in my home state-kinda keeps that 'best kept secret' thing going.
I've no idea really, but I'd guess they wanted to keep a good balance of close to metropolitian areas and still in the "appalachians". also keep in mind that when the trail was first laid out, transportation wasn't like it is today (quality of roads, cars, etc). I imagine that a 4 hour trip then was much more of an ordeal than a 4 hour trip today.
Personally, as a DC resident, I think it is beneficial that more people in my area are able to enjoy day hikes on a section of the trail. If I want something more remote and wild, then I will drive out further for a backpacking trip, either west of the AT, or further down i-81.
Because I've hiked a lot of trails that are wilder, more beautiful and more difficult. I don't deny the AT is beautiful in many places, and remote in a few places, but it isn't wild or remote in the way many other trails are - the kind of remote where you can hike for two weeks without hitting a town or crossing a major road. Many nights you can see lights and hear civilization on the AT.
The AT is also on the low end of the difficulty scale. It is extremely well marked and maintained. Water sources are close together. Camping spots abound. There is no desert and very little mileage above the tree line. Most of it is well-graded with switchbacks. The only true river without a bridge is the Kennebec and it has a ferry.
I have to admit, I miss being able to do the more challenging type of hiking I used to do.
Go to WV and see how beautiful it is for yourself.
OK, I admit that "wilderness" or even "wilderness feeling" is getting pretty rare on the AT. Though I came damned close to that in the 100-mile wilderness back in 1990. Obviously there is no desert. It's the east coast, after all. MacKaye wanted (and got) a trail that was easily accessible to the city-folk on the east coast -- where most of the US population was centered, at the time of the trail's creation.
About the AT being on the "low end of the difficulty scale"... I'd have to guess you haven't done the Whites yet, or southern Maine, or climbed Katahdin.
Your point about switchbacks is weird. First off, the Whites are notorious for not having switchbacks. Second, from what I've experienced of western trails, they're much more likely to have them (switchbacks) than the AT in New England. (Have you climbed up South Kinsman yet, or climbed down Beaver Brook trail?)
Your point about water sources... again, the AT being in the east is going to have more water than the western trails. OTOH, it sure felt way dry this summer between PA and southern VA. (Have you hiked thru PA yet, in summer?)
Mileage above treeline... yeah, I wish there were more wide-open scenic vistas on the AT. But there are plenty in the Whites and southern Maine. Again, you're dealing with heavily wooded areas, so it's not fair to compare the AT to the western trails in this regard. One thing I've discovered in recent sections is that these un-forested ridges can be a mixed blessing in the dead of summer, particularly at low altitudes, as on the AT in the mid-Atlantic or southern New England. My walk along the ridge of Race Mtn. in MA was hellishly hot & nasty.
Grumpy Ol' Pops
02-01-2008, 18:13
AND it goes through NEW JERSEY!
(ducking...)
But it does pass over the ridges and summits of our highest mountains!!!
But it does pass over the ridges and summits of our highest mountains!!!
The AT in NJ is a treat. Way beyond my (admittedly meager) expectations. ;)
Well, either WV is far more beautiful than I imagined,
You would probably like it.
You would probably like it.
I don't doubt it. Though my next "serious" (far-from-home) long-distance hike will probably be on the PCT somewhere. I've done a bit of hiking out west and it is vastly different from the AT, by and large.
The AT in NJ is a treat. Way beyond my (admittedly meager) expectations. ;)
Easily the best part... :D
shelterbuilder
02-01-2008, 22:00
It's been a while since I read MacKaye's "The New Exploration", so I may be a bit rusty on my recollections here (feel free, anybody, to correct my mistakes), but basically, MacKaye envisioned a "wilderness footpath" connecting "established camps" spaced a day or so apart where folks from the metropolitan areas could hike and camp for recreation (please read that re-creation - of body and spirit). Way back when he wrote the book, there was a LOT LESS urban sprawl, lots fewer of us, and the footpath was more "remote" from the urban areas of the East Coast (there were still model T's on the roads in some areas). And, as someone else noted earlier, the effort to create the AT fused other, older trails into itself simply because they were already on the ground. Now, with Federal protection (and Federal funding for the same), the route of the trail is virtually locked in - don't expect major changes anytime soon....