View Full Version : Snow
ChinMusic
02-01-2008, 19:44
I learned something today. Hiking in foot-deep snow is freaking hard.
We got a foot of new snow last night (that was a record 1-day snowfall for January for us) and I decided to take advantage of it and do a little hike, no pack, on relatively flat ground (like we have much else around here). I choose an easy 4-mile route and headed out. I wanted to see how much harder it was to walk, and how well my OR Gaitors did with my Keens (low tops).
I was shocked at how hard it was, way WAY harder than walking in 4-6 inches. I was doing good to average just over 1.5 mph and my calves were KILLING me after about 15 minutes. Now, I'm not in thru-hiker shape by any means, but I do put in around 20 miles a week just to stay in decent shape.
Now that I'm home my calves are burning more that they ever have in my life, burning kinda low on the calves. They hurt just sitting here. I cannot stretch them as the pain is too great. This could be an ugly weekend. On the good side the OR gaitors were champs. My socks were not so much as damp.
I learned that if I ever do attempt a thru, that I'm taking a zero or two if the trail gets such snow. WOW
Hiking in snow requires one to stop frequently to let his heart catch up with him/her.
Add a 2lb. snowshoe to each foot and it gets even more tiring. Throw a mountain in front of you and let the fun begin. Seriously though, good cardiovascular exercise, just pace yourself so as not to exhaust yourself.
this is why snow shoes were invented... without them it's tough in snow
Now that I'm home my calves are burning more that they ever have in my life, burning kinda low on the calves. They hurt just sitting here. I cannot stretch them as the pain is too great.
If that means low as in into the tendon below the muscle, take very good care not to aggravate that strain. Do stretches and wait for the inflammation to die down before trying anything strenuous. Achilles tendinitis is nothing to trifle with. Believe me, I know from long experience. I am laid up for the whole winter and most of last summer. Every time I think I'm getting better, it pops again. Don't mess with it! Unless you're sure it is the muscle, get a medical opinion and take care of it. Once it is bad, it stays bad for much longer than you want to know. If it is just some inflammation, it can be dealt with easily.
As for deep snow, yes it is a pain. You get used to it. Skis and snowshoes work. They're sort of long and narrow with turned up ends, and the others look like tennis rackets. You put them on your feet. Which reminds me of mal de racquette. Another repetitive stress injury you don't want to know about. Ever been snow blind? Winter is cold hell...
ChinMusic
02-01-2008, 20:17
woodsy - Yeah it was a good workout, similar to backpacking actually according to my pulse. In calories burned my heart rate monitor showed those 4 miles were more like 8 without snow. But that wasn't the killer, it was the burning my calves went through that sucked. My calves were obviously doing something they were not prepared for......:(
At what snow depth do folks decide to use snow shoes? The snow we had was pretty powdery.
ChinMusic
02-01-2008, 20:28
If that means low as in into the tendon below the muscle, take very good care not to aggravate that strain. Do stretches and wait for the inflammation to die down before trying anything strenuous. Achilles tendinitis is nothing to trifle with. Believe me, I know from long experience. I am laid up for the whole winter and most of last summer. Every time I think I'm getting better, it pops again. Don't mess with it! Unless you're sure it is the muscle, get a medical opinion and take care of it. Once it is bad, it stays bad for much longer than you want to know. If it is just some inflammation, it can be dealt with easily.
Thanks, yeah I'm gonna chill out until they feel better. It is def muscle and is evenly bilateral. The Achilles itself is not tender. The center of the pain is about 9" from the floor when I stand. The area that hurts is not large. The main body of the calve is not tender.
I guess I shouldn't be too surprised that walking in deep snow would work my muscles differently. I just thought I'd share the experience......:)
jessicacomp
02-01-2008, 20:52
I went snowshoeing for a few hours last week, and I was surprised by how tiring it can be! My calves didnt hurt though, it was all in my thigh muscles that I felt pain.
At what snow depth do folks decide to use snow shoes? The snow we had was pretty powdery.
I think a foot of snow, sometimes less, is a good time to think about wearing snowshoes. Half of the problem with walking or hiking bareboot in snow not too unreasonably deep is the slip factor. Each step usually requires a little extra effort to push off. With snowshoes much if not all of that slip goes away making snowshoeing easier despite the extra weight. Snowshoes also allow you to take longer strides therefore covering more ground faster than bareboot.
ChinMusic
02-01-2008, 21:46
If I had gone "barefoot" I think I might have had other problems........:cool:
Calves are feeling better as the eveing goes on. I'm DEF not making as many trips to the fridge tho.......
take-a-knee
02-01-2008, 22:18
I think a foot of snow, sometimes less, is a good time to think about wearing snowshoes. Half of the problem with walking or hiking bareboot in snow not too unreasonably deep is the slip factor. Each step usually requires a little extra effort to push off. With snowshoes much if not all of that slip goes away making snowshoeing easier despite the extra weight. Snowshoes also allow you to take longer strides therefore covering more ground faster than bareboot.
A foot of snow is time for skis, three feet of loose snow is time for BIG snowshoes for the lead man and skis for the rest of the party.
ChinMusic
02-01-2008, 22:23
A foot of snow is time for skis, three feet of loose snow is time for BIG snowshoes for the lead man and skis for the rest of the party.
I don't ski, so that is out of the question. Would you have used snowshoes for a foot of snow?
take-a-knee
02-01-2008, 23:08
I don't ski, so that is out of the question. Would you have used snowshoes for a foot of snow?
Yes, but if you can walk, you can cross country ski, on level ground anyway.
woodsy - Yeah it was a good workout, similar to backpacking actually according to my pulse. In calories burned my heart rate monitor showed those 4 miles were more like 8 without snow. But that wasn't the killer, it was the burning my calves went through that sucked. My calves were obviously doing something they were not prepared for......:(
At what snow depth do folks decide to use snow shoes? The snow we had was pretty powdery.
I use snowshoes when the snow gets to be 8-10 inches. But breaking trail even with snowshoes is not easy. Snowshoeing is best with 3 or 4 perople who swap off the trail breaking chores.
Most critical, with or without snowshoes, is to listen to what your body is telling you. Hiking with pain is rarely wise. It's why most people quit the trail. The human body is amazingly adaptable if you give it time to adjust to new activities.
Weary
ChinMusic
02-02-2008, 00:05
Most critical, with or without snowshoes, is to listen to what your body is telling you. Hiking with pain is rarely wise. It's why most people quit the trail. The human body is amazingly adaptable if you give it time to adjust to new activities.
Weary
I was listenin', oh I WAS liistenin', but my car was two miles away....:D
So, how did the gaiters and Keens work out? I assume you wanted to find out how well they kept the wet out.
Lone Wolf
02-02-2008, 01:04
I learned something today. Hiking in foot-deep snow is freaking hard.
We got a foot of new snow last night (that was a record 1-day snowfall for January for us) and I decided to take advantage of it and do a little hike, no pack, on relatively flat ground (like we have much else around here). I choose an easy 4-mile route and headed out. I wanted to see how much harder it was to walk, and how well my OR Gaitors did with my Keens (low tops).
I was shocked at how hard it was, way WAY harder than walking in 4-6 inches. I was doing good to average just over 1.5 mph and my calves were KILLING me after about 15 minutes. Now, I'm not in thru-hiker shape by any means, but I do put in around 20 miles a week just to stay in decent shape.
Now that I'm home my calves are burning more that they ever have in my life, burning kinda low on the calves. They hurt just sitting here. I cannot stretch them as the pain is too great. This could be an ugly weekend. On the good side the OR gaitors were champs. My socks were not so much as damp.
I learned that if I ever do attempt a thru, that I'm taking a zero or two if the trail gets such snow. WOW
wow. i don't get it
warraghiyagey
02-02-2008, 01:07
I was listenin', oh I WAS liistenin', but my car was two miles away....:D
(Into wrist watch) - 'Kitt, I need you.'
A foot of snow is time for skis, three feet of loose snow is time for BIG snowshoes for the lead man and skis for the rest of the party.
Wide skis... :)
Who wants to snowshoe when you can ski ?!?!? The poor snowshoer does all the work and the skiers have the fun. Better to trade off among the skiers and have the right skis (wide tele skis) for the job.
Seriously Chin Music, don't be afraid of skis. Get some simple touring skis with full edges and you are good to go for the foot powder you encountered. If you can hike, you can ski tour.
Skiing is more elegant, more efficient and (in my opinion) make you feel apart of the environment rather than trudging through it. A used pair of touring skis, boots and poles can be had for under $150. Considering it is difficult to find used snowshoes (in decent condition) and the cost of new ones, that ain't too bad.
Snowshoeing has simple learning curve and is great for getting more people out in winter. But I find it to be more work and you often can't use them when there is little snow..whereas on skis you can.
(Former snowshoer...now a skiing zealot!)
What you use kinda depends on what you've got with you. If you have a choice, skis make it really easy to traverse flat or rolling, open land. Not so good in woods or sharp ups and downs. The softer the snow, the more flotation you need. The deeper you sink the slower you will go. More flotation on skis means wider and longer. Also note that the heavier you are fully loaded, the more ski you require. And there's a bunch of technical stuff like skins and waxes, but that's for mountain skiing mostly.
There used to be different kinds of snow shoes for different terrain, but mostly the newfangled, plastic and metal ones are all the same sort of shape, rather like what used to be called a bear paw. They give good flotation with less area, because the solid webbing doesn't let the snow through, and it flexes, meaning snow doesn't stick. Mostly. They also have ice teeth under the foot, and bindings that accept hiking boots. Good rig, I guess. Haven't used any for some time. But there used to be some long, ski style shoes for open ground, called Rupert House pattern. Used up in the tundra country. They were for fast travel on open, wind beaten snow. Most of the woods people used a compromise pattern with a shorter tail and a bit wider. They could travel in the bush and also on open ground pretty well.
I guess what I'm trying to get to is that there are a lot of different snow conditions common in snow country, and unless you are properly equipped, you will get slowed down. But down south, where snow is a transient condition, you'll mostly end up with a compromise. And if you are out with boots in deep snow, it might pay to know how to camp in snow and stay warm. In these days of LNT, that means don't go out in the snow without bedding, shelter and a stove system.
One last thing: most people who trek on skis or snow shoes don't carry too much pack weight. They usually pull it on a sled of some sort. The usual pattern was a long, narrow, flexible, wooden sled like a narrow toboggan. You could pull a whole dressed deer or the skins from a trap line on such a rig. Modern adventure trekkers use smaller sleds to carry winter shelters and multi-day food supplies. It works better than summer backpacking when you're properly equipped for it.
If I had gone "barefoot" I think I might have had other problems........:cool:
~
Your eyes fooled you. Woodsy used a term you were unfamiliar with, and your eyes saw thought they saw "barefoot".
Bareboot is a term commonly used in the northeast, to describe hiking without traction devices (crampons, etc), or floatation (snowshoes). It is indicative of trail conditions. For instance, if one reports that they were able to "bareboot to the summit", the following is usually inferred:
1. Snow depth on the trail did not require snowshoes, OR the existing snow was hard-packed and floatation was not required
2. The trail was not icy, OR limited icy spots were easily avoided
Skis are good for gradual terrain features and barefeet are good for beaches.
I have yet to ever find ski tracks on the AT in Maine winters. Wonder why?
Now when the snow gets 3-4 feet deep like it was in December, a mile on snowshoes is more like five.
Time to break out the 2-stroke!
ChinMusic
02-02-2008, 12:25
So, how did the gaiters and Keens work out? I assume you wanted to find out how well they kept the wet out.
Dry as a bone. I was impressed. I was concerned that the low-tops would be much harder to keep the snow out. I tightened up the gaitors pretty good and that did the trick.
ChinMusic
02-02-2008, 12:35
Your eyes fooled you. Woodsy used a term you were unfamiliar with, and your eyes saw thought they saw "barefoot".
Bareboot is a term commonly used in the northeast, to describe hiking without traction devices (crampons, etc), or floatation (snowshoes). It is indicative of trail conditions. For instance, if one reports that they were able to "bareboot to the summit", the following is usually inferred:
1. Snow depth on the trail did not require snowshoes, OR the existing snow was hard-packed and floatation was not required
2. The trail was not icy, OR limited icy spots were easily avoided
Thanks. I did misread it and thought it was a typo. I have no experience with hiking in serious snow cover, only a few inches.
Thanks, yeah I'm gonna chill out until they feel better. It is def muscle and is evenly bilateral. The Achilles itself is not tender. The center of the pain is about 9" from the floor when I stand. The area that hurts is not large. The main body of the calve is not tender.
I guess I shouldn't be too surprised that walking in deep snow would work my muscles differently. I just thought I'd share the experience......:)Sounds like things got 'interesting' for you. Thanks for sharing. I love a good trudge in the snow, but you definitely need to reset your horizon closer. I haven't done much shoeshoing, just skiing and trudging, but I can definitely say every extra inch of snow and whether it is wet or fluffy can make a real difference, and what might have taken you 8 hours on the way in can take you 3 or 4 days on the way out. I don't remember it being so bad when I was younger, but I was also 100 pounds or more lighter. My horizons were naturally closer back then also. I think the key to winter hiking is not to go so far, and you don't have to really, because the woods are so different from one day to the next and challenging in so many different ways that you don't have to go as far for things to get 'interesting'. You have to be particularly careful when cross-country skiing because you can cover an amazing distance in one day, but things can change in a hurry, and then your really out there.
When I ski a long distance in winter I like to do it up a river or along a trail that has many exit points, so I can trudge off the trail just about anywheres and call home for a lift. You can be skiing along a river or trail with the perfect amount of snow, but then you might do a little bushwacking and break a ski, or maybe get dumped on with too much snow, or freezing rain. When you trudge out when the snow is already deep its not so bad because you can usually just trudge your way back, though you might not have so much energy for the trudge back. Winter really is a hoot, you just have to be more careful how far you push your envelope. :)
What little winter hiking I've done tells me it's MUCH tougher going than in summer. And for that matter, while I feel safe hiking alone in summer, I'd never do it again in winter (hike alone in deep backcountry, that is.) See this pic --
http://www.terrapinphoto.com/mt_hayes_snow_scene.jpg
-- it took me about 20 minutes to get from the spot where the photo was taken, to the top of that small rise in the background. The snow was chest-deep, and it was a battle, even with snowshoes. (The photo is near the summit of Mt. Hayes, on the AT just north of Gorham.)
I've been slowed down to as little as 1 km per hour on 6" of snow on a road. That was trudging with a heavy pack. Noticed it was considerably slower in the afternoon than the morning. When you slow down that much it is usually worth stopping for a full hour and a hot meal mid day, even if the days are short. This is especially important if it is cold, or there is a risk of a very cold night.
In the woods I've been slowed down much more than that, even on a trail on cross country skis. I bushwacked through woods to get to a trail a few weeks ago, on Long Island on the Kennebecasis. I was on skis. Snow was powdery and varied 6" to 24" in the woods. When I finally reached the trail, which was an old road, the snow was even deeper because it was a bit of a clearing so it was no faster than the woods. It was definitely worth doing though. As long as you have the time and energy and make it back in reasonable time and still in one peace its always worth it. Temperatures were ideal at about 30F the whole time and skiing conditions on the river were ideal, so I wasn't in too bad shape by the time I made it out of the woods to ski back across the river. You really have to be prepared to be unprepared in winter. You often get more than you bargain for. :)
ChinMusic
02-04-2008, 12:32
I was shocked at how hard it was, way WAY harder than walking in 4-6 inches. I was doing good to average just over 1.5 mph and my calves were KILLING me after about 15 minutes. Now, I'm not in thru-hiker shape by any means, but I do put in around 20 miles a week just to stay in decent shape.
Now that I'm home my calves are burning more that they ever have in my life, burning kinda low on the calves. They hurt just sitting here. I cannot stretch them as the pain is too great. This could be an ugly weekend.
Good news on the calves. They were just sore the next day but I could stretch em. Today, three days later, it's like nothing happened.
I'm wondering if this had been a thru and I pushed it the next day if things would have healed so quickly. This just reinforced the idea of taking GA real slow, esp at my age.
Blissful
02-04-2008, 12:46
-- it took me about 20 minutes to get from the spot where the photo was taken, to the top of that small rise in the background. The snow was chest-deep, and it was a battle, even with snowshoes. (The photo is near the summit of Mt. Hayes, on the AT just north of Gorham.)
Brings back memories, without the snow, that is. Beautiful pic.
Blissful
02-04-2008, 12:48
Good news on the calves. They were just sore the next day but I could stretch em. Today, three days later, it's like nothing happened.
I'm wondering if this had been a thru and I pushed it the next day if things would have healed so quickly. This just reinforced the idea of taking GA real slow, esp at my age.
Good idea. You heal much slower as the age advances, unfortunately. I pulled my right quad near Wayah Bald last year, it hurt, but I babied it some and still hiked, thuugh watched it carefully. It eventually healed in a few days. Yippee for Vit I.
Chenango
02-04-2008, 13:08
Yesterday I was hiking in a layer of ice on top of snow. Good thing I was wearing my stabilicers. These things really help with the footing. I was very glad the ice and cursted snow was strong enough to keep me from breaking through every step. Bottom line, I agree with the saying that one mile walking in snow feels like two.
This my kinda thread!! I love hiking the back bowls and just ripping the freash pow!! There is no snow to deep. And we have been getting dumped on. Yesterday was great snowboarding through all that deep, white, wonderful snow I LOVE IT!!!!!
I did two or three backpacking trips each winter for 35 years or so, starting in 1970 and ending a few years ago. On a 40 mile, four day, three night walk the length of Baxter Park, half were on skiis and half snowshoed. On the opening day 11 mile road walk mostly down hill, the skiers were by far the fastest. On nine miles of rolling hills through wet snow, the second day, snowshoers reached camp an hour or two ahead of most of the skiers. One skier trudged into camp five hours after dark -- after a few of us had gone back out to find him.
ON a variety of trips in Maine and New Hampshire involving serious climbing over the years, one guy persisted in using skiis for several years before finally giving up and switching back to snowshoes.
Skiis are great on groomed trails and on trails though level country created by Snowmobiles. But when serious climbing is required, snowshoes work best.
These days I mostly snowshoe to my compost pile and on local land trust trails. I hate snowmobiles, but occasionally I welcome the nice compacted snow they create. I notice, also, that the machines also like the compacted trails I make with my snowshoes.
BTW I still use the wood and rawhide shoes, which served quite well over the centuries. I have quite a collection -- the new pair I bought from LL Beans in 1970 and several more of various designs picked up at yard sales and auctions over the years. I modify mine by wiring on instep crampons. I bend the upright portion flat with a vice and hammer, and fasten them to the bottom of the snowshoe with single strands of number 14 electrical wiring.
Weary
ChinMusic
02-04-2008, 13:42
I figured I was easily in good enough shape to handle 4 miles in the snow on Friday. Yes, my heart didn't have an issue but that snow sure found a muscle that was my weak point. I'm sure if I went out today I wouldn't be as sore.
Aside from the snow itself, this episode reinforces the notion that nothing prepares you for backpacking in mountains than backpacking in mountains.
Yes, but if you can walk, you can cross country ski, on level ground anyway.
Generally true, probably. But I have an old back injury from the '80's. I was out of work for almost a year, and on limited duty for a year after that.
Back then the Docs told me Backpacking was fine as long as I was careful putting the pack on and off, but to avoid jumping from higher than two feet, no skydiving, and no skiing - of any kind. Two different, sports oriented Orthopedic Surgeons made the same recommendation. I decided then and there, I would follow their instructions and I haven't had a back problem since. Guess it's the unexpected twisting or jarring they want me to avoid.
I think it was a relative small price to pay for an otherwise healthy back - I intend to do everything I can to keep it that way. That said, it's snowshoeing for me.
I'm wondering if this had been a thru and I pushed it the next day if things would have healed so quickly. This just reinforced the idea of taking GA real slow, esp at my age.
At your age? Heck, you're still a youngster!
Well, actually, I think about 50 is the turning point. Broken things start taking longer to heal, joints start to get kinda grungy, you get out of shape real fast, it's harder to get out the front door some days. YMMV.
ChinMusic
02-04-2008, 15:11
At your age? Heck, you're still a youngster!
Well, actually, I think about 50 is the turning point. Broken things start taking longer to heal, joints start to get kinda grungy, you get out of shape real fast, it's harder to get out the front door some days. YMMV.
I'm trying to hold off father time. I no longer run but I lift twice a week, walk as much as time will allow, and try to hit the hills a couple times a month. Most of the parts are in good working order......:cool:
I think the moderate strength training does a lot to help keep the joints happy.
Skiis are great on groomed trails and on trails though level country created by Snowmobiles. But when serious climbing is required, snowshoes work best.
Weary
You are all using the wrong skis.
Can't say I go on snowmobile tracks or groomed trails. Strictly back country.
Rumor has it there are some mountains in Colorado. ;)
I used to think the same way until I started using the correct equipment (wider skis, full edges, skins) AND my skiing skills improved.
And I have yet to be in the back of the packs..no sled, full pack. In fact, I stopped doing mixed snowshoe/ski trips because my friends and I were always waiting for the snowshoers. :O
I'll stick to skis thank you-very-much.
(I'll be the first to admit skiing has a much higher learning curve..but I'll never go back)
There must be some kind of a continuum between boots and snowshoes, and between snowshoes and skis. When I was younger and lighter I did just fine bushwacking on regular touring skis, like 2" wide. Now that I am heavier, and less stretchy also, I think I could use somewhat wider skis, or switch to snowshoes sooner. It would help alot to drop the weight down though. I also wondered if a pulk might have helped but my pack itself wasn't that heavy, just me.
mags: You are all using the wrong skis.
I think we're using the wrong snow, right now it's glazed over like icing on a cake:rolleyes: I think the rockies are noted for powder and the east is noted for icy crud. Makes a difference, this stuff we've got now is downright treacherous, could almost ice skate on it.
My skis are staying parked till some fresh snow arrives.:D
I think we're using the wrong snow, right now it's glazed over like icing on a cake:rolleyes:
Hey..no fair, you mentioned ice. :)
True. But that is skins are for. :p
(I'm not above skinning up for icy terrain in the backcountry)
I have some friends who grew up skiing in Vermont. They said learning to ski on what is essentially ice made them REALLY appreciate it out here!
Despite my apparent ski bias, I will say that whatever it takes to get you out in winter is what is ultimately the most important. The outdoors can be fun 12 months out of the year. Just need the right clothing and equipment.
this is like when i went snowboarding in CO, and got stuck on the side of the trail in snow up to my chest. it doesnt help when you 10,000 ft up(hard on the lungs), but it is still VERY hard to move!
mags: Hey..no fair, you mentioned ice. :)
It's also known as "boilerplate" or "bulletproof" :eek:
We're getting a fresh coat of snow today so we may be back in the skiing business:)
Whatever that stuff is out there, it is now February, and I am tired of it...
Whaaaa! snivel, drool.