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hobojoe
02-13-2008, 12:37
Hello fellow classmates of '08. My name is Hobo Joe, and for the past 4 years I have been attempting to do a thru-hike with little or no money. Since my first attempt in '04 I have met some amazing people on the trail, along with a few disrespectful folks. It is very important to remember to leave the AT and shelters just as you found them. Pack it in pack it out.
It is not OK to leave: trash, food, cigarette buts, or anything (besides gear that someone will definitely take, and footprints). in or around the shelters, fire pits, road-crossings etc.
I personally feel that when a hiker balls up a snickers wrapper or flicks a filtered cigarette butt into the fire ring at a shelter they are completely disrespecting every hiker and the trail itself. Burning paper trash in a fire pit is acceptable as long as it is taken care of; expecting someone else to come along and burn your trash for you is not! Unless your momma is hiking along behind you.
I know many of you believe the same thing I do, but I ask of you please do not hesitate to tell someone else that there trash is ruining your wilderness experience. When you get to a shelter that is trashed, pack some of that trash out, you'll never notice the weight and it will make trail beautiful for the next folks who come through. Let's bring a little love to 2000 & Hate (2008).
Am I way out of line here????

Appalachian Tater
02-13-2008, 12:39
Hello fellow classmates of '08. My name is Hobo Joe, and for the past 4 years I have been attempting to do a thru-hike with little or no money. Since my first attempt in '04 I have met some amazing people on the trail, along with a few disrespectful folks. It is very important to remember to leave the AT and shelters just as you found them. Pack it in pack it out.
It is not OK to leave: trash, food, cigarette buts, or anything (besides gear that someone will definitely take, and footprints). in or around the shelters, fire pits, road-crossings etc.
I personally feel that when a hiker balls up a snickers wrapper or flicks a filtered cigarette butt into the fire ring at a shelter they are completely disrespecting every hiker and the trail itself. Burning paper trash in a fire pit is acceptable as long as it is taken care of; expecting someone else to come along and burn your trash for you is not! Unless your momma is hiking along behind you.
I know many of you believe the same thing I do, but I ask of you please do not hesitate to tell someone else that there trash is ruining your wilderness experience. When you get to a shelter that is trashed, pack some of that trash out, you'll never notice the weight and it will make trail beautiful for the next folks who come through. Let's bring a little love to 2000 & Hate (2008).
Am I way out of line here????No, you're right in line, except that trail maintainers would prefer you leave nothing in shelters except for your entry in the journal. They have to carry out anything you leave, including equipment you think someone else might want. Tons of it a year.

Lone Wolf
02-13-2008, 12:40
[COLOR=black]
[COLOR=black]It is not OK to leave: trash, food, cigarette buts, or anything (besides gear that someone will definitely take, and footprints). i

wrong. ask any maintainer

DesertMTB
02-13-2008, 12:45
So it isn't ok to put a cigarette butt in the fire, but it is acceptable to burn trash? That doesn't make any sense.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 12:52
No, you're right in line, except that trail maintainers would prefer you leave nothing in shelters except for your entry in the journal. They have to carry out anything you leave, including equipment you think someone else might want. Tons of it a year.
Yeah, you're right, that is what hiker boxes are for anyway. I do remember a time when my water bladder sprung a leak and I found one about 4 hours later in a shelter. Good luck, but still it's probably not realy respectful.
My first hike your average l.l. Bean hiker left about 7 days of food, sleeping bag, ten pairs of socks, wistles compass etc. hung up on the bear line Hawk Mt. shelter. I did my best to eat his food, but I do not thank him for it.

zoidfu
02-13-2008, 12:54
Personally, I don't mind if someone leaves a bottle of the good stuff in a shelter.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 12:55
So it isn't ok to put a cigarette butt in the fire, but it is acceptable to burn trash? That doesn't make any sense.
I was refering to an "unlit fire ring" your butts will blow across the forest with a strong gust of wind. Also birds will pick them up for their nest, and choke on them, (or start smoking). Either way no good.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 12:55
Personally, I don't mind if someone leaves a bottle of the good stuff in a shelter.
Will you pack out the bottle or just leave it for the maintainers.

Lone Wolf
02-13-2008, 12:56
NOTHING except wood should go in a fire pit

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 12:57
NOTHING except wood should go in a fire pit
Not paper?

DesertMTB
02-13-2008, 12:57
I was refering to an "unlit fire ring" your butts will blow across the forest with a strong gust of wind. Also birds will pick them up for their nest, and choke on them, (or start smoking). Either way no good.


Ok. Yeah, I wouldn't leave my butts in an unlit fire ring. But I do flick them into the fire at night.

zoidfu
02-13-2008, 12:59
Will you pack out the bottle or just leave it for the maintainers.

Of course. I've packed out trash for thru hikers more times than I can count.

What about leaving matches, lighters and TP? I don't see the harm in that. I'm going to sit back and prepare to get blasted now:eek:

Appalachian Tater
02-13-2008, 13:01
Not paper?

Paper IS wood.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 13:02
Paper IS wood.
Was wood.

The Weasel
02-13-2008, 13:05
Cigarette butts thrown into a fire often do not get burned, ending up at the perimeter or the base. No one fishes them out if they don't. If you smoke, field strip your butt and pack out the filter.

As for paper in a fire, a lot of paper has toxic chemicals in the ink which are released by burning, and a lot of "paper" packaging isn't paper but plastic film, which is also toxic when burnt. Even true "paper" that has been food packaging shouldn't be burned, since trace food odors from the paper can be released during combustion, helping to draw animals to the shelter area.

Paper can be removed from 90% of packaging before a hike, with repackaging in ziplocs that can be used to pack garbage/trash out. NO trash or garbage should be put in fires, even paper.

TW

The Weasel
02-13-2008, 13:05
Paper IS wood.


Was wood.

Not necessarily. See above.

TW

refreeman
02-13-2008, 13:08
Well said hobojoe!

Ignore lone wolf as he is one of the few disrespectful folks you mentioned.
He only writes slothishly curt and rude comments.
Someone ought to pack him out, but he's a fatty so we'd all definitely notice his weight.

Lone Wolf
02-13-2008, 13:09
Well said hobojoe!

Ignore lone wolf as he is one of the few disrespectful folks you mentioned.
He only writes slothishly curt and rude comments.
Someone ought to pack him out, but he's a fatty so we'd all defiantly notice his weight.

that's funny, hunny :D

max patch
02-13-2008, 13:09
Even true "paper" that has been food packaging shouldn't be burned, since trace food odors from the paper can be released during combustion, helping to draw animals to the shelter area.


That technically may be true, however, as a practical matter any animals that may be drawn to a shelter are already going to be there from the odors coming from spilled soup, other food particles, and toothpaste spit.

MOWGLI
02-13-2008, 13:13
Folks sharing a communal space should not scatter their belongings about the shelter. They should keep their possessions in a tight space, so that hikers arriving after you don't have to ask you to move your stuff. Hikers should also make an attempt to clean themselves up - at least occasionally. Some hikers apparently takes great pride in going many weeks without a shower. That's disrespectful of others who you are sharing a common space with.

Appalachian Tater
02-13-2008, 13:15
That technically may be true, however, as a practical matter any animals that may be drawn to a shelter are already going to be there from the odors coming from spilled soup, other food particles, and toothpaste spit.I spit toothpaste into the fire ring.

The Weasel
02-13-2008, 13:15
That technically may be true, however, as a practical matter any animals that may be drawn to a shelter are already going to be there from the odors coming from spilled soup, other food particles, and toothpaste spit.

Yes, you're right, Max. But everything is cumulative, and in other places that aren't as heavily used as a shelter, burning waste paper in fires can draw animals that wouldn't otherwise appear, particularly noxious varmints like 'coons, 'possums and skunks.

TW

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 13:18
Folks sharing a communal space should not scatter their belongings about the shelter. They should keep their possessions in a tight space, so that hikers arriving after you don't have to ask you to move your stuff. Hikers should also make an attempt to clean themselves up - at least occasionally. Some hikers apparently takes great pride in going many weeks without a shower. That's disrespectful of others who you are sharing a common space with.
I smell like flowers. Whats disrespectful is smelling like soap in a shelter, ewwww.
Also, dogs not in the shelter unless everyone there consents, or if I'm cold.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 13:20
I spit toothpaste into the fire ring.
Usualy I would take a 5 minute walk to brush. That is too much mint and sugar too close to the shelter or campsite. It will definately attract animals. Coons as in my experience.

jesse
02-13-2008, 13:20
This topic come up often, and for the life of me I don't understand why. LNT. Pack it in Pack it out. This applies equally to Thru-hikers, and trail angels. Nothing should ever be left at a shelter, a road crossing, a stream, or anywhere on the trail. Nothing, includes:
matches
water
TP
books
Bibles
religious literature
any literature
equipment
clothes
food
booze
soft drinks
fuel
empty fuel bottles

max patch
02-13-2008, 13:20
Folks sharing a communal space should not scatter their belongings about the shelter. They should keep their possessions in a tight space, so that hikers arriving after you don't have to ask you to move your stuff.

That is the one pet peeve I had about other hikers. I almost always tented, but on the few occassions I wanted to use a shelter there always seemed to be 2 people in the shelter and their stuff was spread out over the entire floor. Just plain rude.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 13:23
This topic come up often, and for the life of me I don't understand why. LNT. Pack it in Pack it out. This applies equally to Thru-hikers, and trail angels. Nothing should ever be left at a shelter, a road crossing, a stream, or anywhere on the trail. Nothing, includes:
matches
water
TP
books
Bibles
religious literature
any literature
equipment
clothes
food
booze
soft drinks
fuel
empty fuel bottles
Don't get me started on the gideons.

Appalachian Tater
02-13-2008, 13:24
Usualy I would take a 5 minute walk to brush. That is too much mint and sugar too close to the shelter or campsite. It will definately attract animals. Coons as in my experience.

LNT is a set of principles, not a set of rules. I was taught to do it by an experienced hiker. You are correct that it is not always appropriate. Unfortunately, shelters attract animals because of the food and salt.

zoidfu
02-13-2008, 13:28
Don't get me started on the gideons.

That reminds me of that old Bill Hicks bit-

Has anyone actually ever seen a gideon? What are these guys, ninjas?

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 13:30
LNT is a set of principles, not a set of rules. I was taught to do it by an experienced hiker. You are correct that it is not always appropriate. Unfortunately, shelters attract animals because of the food and salt.
If it was manditory the trail would be a much more beautiful place. I will personaly cut anyones packstraps who leave trash in the shelter.
1st offense: cut packstraps
2nd offense: I pee in your water bladder.
3rd offense: Chuck norris style roundhouse kick to the face.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 13:35
That reminds me of that old Bill Hicks bit-

Has anyone actually ever seen a gideon? What are these guys, ninjas?
I'm gonna catch one.
Hello, front desk I don't seem to have a bible in my room.

max patch
02-13-2008, 13:38
Has anyone actually ever seen a gideon?

Yeah. North GA State Fair. Same spot every year. They give away those real small Bibles. The ones perfect for backpacking.

Appalachian Tater
02-13-2008, 13:39
The Gideons are probably not the ones leaving religious literature in the shelters.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 13:41
Well said hobojoe!

Ignore lone wolf as he is one of the few disrespectful folks you mentioned.
He only writes slothishly curt and rude comments.
Someone ought to pack him out, but he's a fatty so we'd all definitely notice his weight.
Must be a sad existance sitting in front of a computer all day with the grandeur of the apps right behind you.

quasarr
02-13-2008, 13:44
ahhhh Carrboro. The proud home of "5th Season Gardening," the store that sells UV lights for all your indoor gardening needs :-? :p

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 13:49
ahhhh Carrboro. The proud home of "5th Season Gardening," the store that sells UV lights for all your indoor gardening needs :-? :p
A good friend of mine works there......I swear I'm just growing tomatoes. Do you live in this area?? would you be interested in this?? http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32898&referrerid=4321

Gray Blazer
02-13-2008, 13:56
Even true "paper" that has been food packaging shouldn't be burned, since trace food odors from the paper can be released during combustion, helping to draw animals to the shelter area.



TW

Don't fart around shelters as this may attract varmits. As a matter of fact don't even go near a shelter as the trace odors on your clothes and body may attract critters, too.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 14:00
Don't fart around shelters as this may attract varmits. As a matter of fact don't even go near a shelter as the trace odors on your clothes and body may attract critters, too.
I believe in leave no trace, but I feel conflicted when I break trail at hardcore. Maybe I'll adopt leave no trail.

Mrs Baggins
02-13-2008, 14:35
I don't understand tents in shelters!!!! If you have a tent, put it outside. If you want to sleep in the shelter, then leave your tent packed! Do you put up an umbrella in your house or car????? No, there is NOT a reason good enough. :mad: As I would say to my kids "what you are giving me is an EXCUSE, not a REASON."

Also, I can't count the number of times we saw USED tp on the side of the trails and at the shelters. :eek: Not buried, just used and left. Truly disgusting.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 14:47
I don't understand tents in shelters!!!! If you have a tent, put it outside. If you want to sleep in the shelter, then leave your tent packed! Do you put up an umbrella in your house or car????? No, there is NOT a reason good enough. :mad: As I would say to my kids "what you are giving me is an EXCUSE, not a REASON."

Also, I can't count the number of times we saw USED tp on the side of the trails and at the shelters. :eek: Not buried, just used and left. Truly disgusting.
Yeah tents in shelters is a great way to get people to hate ya on the trail. Almost as funny as the full bug suit.

Marta
02-13-2008, 14:50
I don't understand tents in shelters!!!! If you have a tent, put it outside. If you want to sleep in the shelter, then leave your tent packed! Do you put up an umbrella in your house or car????? No, there is NOT a reason good enough. :mad: As I would say to my kids "what you are giving me is an EXCUSE, not a REASON."


I still don't understand why you, and the other no-tents-in-shelter people, care about this.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 14:52
I still don't understand why you, and the other no-tents-in-shelter people, care about this.
Tipicaly you take up much more room if you set up your tent. Plus its annoying trying to talk to you in there, it's like the bubble boy or something. Grow a pair.

Lone Wolf
02-13-2008, 14:54
Tipicaly you take up much more room if you set up your tent. Plus its annoying trying to talk to you in there, it's like the bubble boy or something. Grow a pair.

and you accuse me of negative posts? tellin' marta to "grow a pair"? :D dooood!

Marta
02-13-2008, 14:57
Grow a pair.

I kind of doubt I ever will.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 14:58
and you accuse me of negative posts? tellin' marta to "grow a pair"? :D dooood!
I was telling all shelter tenters to grow a (collective) pair.......good, sound advice if you ask me. Who the heck are you anyways???

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 14:59
Pair of what?

chief
02-13-2008, 14:59
Yeah tents in shelters is a great way to get people to hate ya on the trail. Almost as funny as the full bug suit.The best way to get people to hate you on the trail is being a self-righteous prick!

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 15:01
I can be a real jerk some times. I love you all. I thought that was the way to be loved on the trail......seems to work for most "Trail Legends"

zoidfu
02-13-2008, 15:02
The best way to get people to hate you on the trail is being a self-righteous prick!

Yup. I had a guy tell me that he didn't appreciate drinking on the trail. He got a good, hardy ****** you.

Lone Wolf
02-13-2008, 15:03
any trail legends if any, are deceased mr. hobo

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 15:07
The best way to get people to hate you on the trail is being a self-righteous prick!
Just going on experience. Many hikers do not apreciate tenting in shelters, as it is not a question of survival but of comfort. I don't care unless it bothers someone or leaves someone out in the rain.
I gotta work on being positive.

zoidfu
02-13-2008, 15:10
This is selfish but I can't stand when a hiker wants to go to sleep at 5pm in a shelter and expect everyone to stop everything.

Lone Wolf
02-13-2008, 15:11
I gotta work on being positive.

me too. seriously. sorry if i've offended you in the past. i'm gonna try to be a good boy :)

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 15:12
This is selfish but I can't stand when a hiker wants to go to sleep at 5pm in a shelter and expect everyone to stop everything.
Yeah, If I have to hear you wake up at 4AM you have to respect me at 9:00.........or later.

Terry7
02-13-2008, 15:16
This is why I will wait for the herd to pass by.

jesse
02-13-2008, 15:17
The very first time I stayed on the AT was at Blue Mountain Shelter, with my then 10 y/o son. It was New Years Eve, cold and windy. There was one long distance hiker staying there. He suggested that we set our tent up in the shelter. We did. A SOBO thru hiker came up just after dark, and we moved the tent. I do not think I was being rude, at the time. If the shelter is empty, why should anyone care if you tent. BTW I froze my A$$ of anyway cause I was not prepared for cold weather. Also I learned that mice stay in the shelters, so I don't anymore.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 15:24
This is why I will wait for the herd to pass by.
Tried that... you will probably get stuck with all their trash.


The very first time I stayed on the AT was at Blue Mountain Shelter, with my then 10 y/o son. It was New Years Eve, cold and windy. There was one long distance hiker staying there. He suggested that we set our tent up in the shelter. We did. A SOBO thru hiker came up just after dark, and we moved the tent. I do not think I was being rude, at the time. If the shelter is empty, why should anyone care if you tent. BTW I froze my A$$ of anyway cause I was not prepared for cold weather. Also I learned that mice stay in the shelters, so I don't anymore.
Yeah, it is mostly an issue of space. We are not making rules, I just want to let people know, (especially newbies) how people feel about shelter use. Use your best judgement ask the hikers you're staying with, on a case to case basis.

rafe
02-13-2008, 15:28
I don't understand tents in shelters!!!!

OK, I've been flamed for this before, but I believe "shelter ethics" are situational. In other words: if you're alone at the shelter, or if the current inhabitants are all in agreement, you can bend the rules a bit.

If you're all alone, or it's you and a buddy, you can belch, fart, make a racket, chat on your phone, get rowdy drunk and stay up all night, for all I care.

Or let's say it's hot and buggy out. Let's say you've got a tent like the BA SL1 which has a small footprint and is free-standing (and which, without the fly, makes a nice personal bug canopy.) Let's say it's 9 PM and you're still alone at the shelter, or maybe it's just you and a buddy. In that situation, I see no harm in throwing up the tent to get some relief from the bugs.

Of course, if more hikers arrive -- reset. Back to square one.

To be perfectly clear: I haven't done this nor am I advocating it. The scenario above is a true story from a shelter in CT a few summers ago. I was tenting -- not in the shelter. Two thru hikers were in the shelter, and I wasn't at all troubled by what they did. "No harm, no foul."

Marta
02-13-2008, 15:29
I don't care unless it bothers someone or leaves someone out in the rain.

That's the way I feel about it. And, frankly, the "bothering" thing is really their problem.

BTW, I don't actually have a tent I can set up in a shelter...I've got a not-freestanding Tarptent.:D But I don't care if anyone else sets up their tent.

What really ticks me off is people who set alarm clocks or watches in shelters. They often sleep right through it while a light sleeper, like me, is awake for the duration.

To be honest, though, I can't complain about shelters much because if I don't like it, I can always go set up my tent.

jhick
02-13-2008, 15:30
I would think common sense would be enough but seeing how people sometimes act in public, I'd rather set up away from shelters.

Footslogger
02-13-2008, 15:33
OK ...here's a really dumb question.

Why does a person need a tent INSIDE a shelter ??

Just curious ...

'Slogger

Marta
02-13-2008, 15:34
Bugs. Warmth.

rafe
02-13-2008, 15:34
I would think common sense would be enough but seeing how people sometimes act in public, I'd rather set up away from shelters.

There have been many nights where I started in a shelter, and ended in my tent nearby.

jhick
02-13-2008, 15:34
bugs. But if you're setting it up because of bugs, why not set it up outside the shelter?

rafe
02-13-2008, 15:36
OK ...here's a really dumb question.

Why does a person need a tent INSIDE a shelter ??

Just curious ...

'Slogger

See Msg. 58. A small freestanding tent (eg. BA SL1) without the fly, makes a decent bug canopy.

rafe
02-13-2008, 15:37
bugs. But if you're setting it up because of bugs, why not set it up outside the shelter?

Not always an option. But if there's no contention for the space, why not?

Footslogger
02-13-2008, 15:40
See Msg. 58. A small freestanding tent (eg. BA SL1) without the fly, makes a decent bug canopy.

================================

OK ...guess I can understand the bug thing. Now that I think of it, in 2003 I slept inside my OR Bug Bivy inside a shelter or two (on a rainy night) but the bivy is no wider than my sleeping bag so it didn't end up taking up any more room than my matress.

'Slogger

DesertMTB
02-13-2008, 16:03
OK ...here's a really dumb question.

Why does a person need a tent INSIDE a shelter ??

Just curious ...

'Slogger


Psychological protection from mice.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 16:07
Psychological protection from mice. psychological ONLY. Mice have teeth.

Blissful
02-13-2008, 16:12
There have been many nights where I started in a shelter, and ended in my tent nearby.


Been there, done that...with chain smokers and really bad coughs.

Footslogger
02-13-2008, 16:15
psychological ONLY. Mice have teeth.

===========================

...and they can chew right through tent material !!

'Slogger

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 16:17
===========================

...and they can chew right through tent material !!

'Slogger
......and love every minute of it.

Blissful
02-13-2008, 16:18
If no one else is around, why not. But I have to admit, if I arrive, even if I'm tenting, and I see a tent set up in a shelter it makes me kind of upset. I don't know why, really. It looks like the palace royale or the person is "heir apparent" of the premises, maybe. A psychological thing. A ridgerunner in CT had his tent set up in a shelter when we got there and it really "bugged" me. He had set his up for the mosquitos, but to me, I thought he would know better, realizing hikers would be coming in.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 16:20
If no one else is around, why not. But I have to admit, if I arrive, even if I'm tenting, and I see a tent set up in a shelter it makes me kind of upset. I don't know why, really. It looks like the palace royale or the person is "heir apparent" of the premises, maybe. A psychological thing. A ridgerunner in CT had his tent set up in a shelter when we got there and it really "bugged" me. He had set his up for the mosquitos, but to me, I thought he would know better, realizing hikers would be coming in.
These "hidden" feelings are exactly why I posted this.

mudhead
02-13-2008, 16:29
Yeah, If I have to hear you wake up at 4AM you have to respect me at 9:00.........or later.

If I was to hear you at 9PM, I assure you, it would be before 4AM.

Tent is good for the 2AM might as well get ups.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 16:32
If I was to hear you at 9PM, I assure you, it would be before 4AM.
What???

rafe
02-13-2008, 16:39
These "hidden" feelings are exactly why I posted this.

Sensitive fella, aren't you? Anyone who's spent any time on the trail has encountered this -- you get to a shelter and you know right away, that it's not your kind of scene. Maybe it's the trash, or the bottles of liquor, or the smoke, or the shouting, or the long hair, or the short hair, or ...

Why fight it? There's a lot of room in the woods, find your own space elsewhere. No big deal.

hobojoe
02-13-2008, 16:57
Sensitive fella, aren't you? Anyone who's spent any time on the trail has encountered this -- you get to a shelter and you know right away, that it's not your kind of scene. Maybe it's the trash, or the bottles of liquor, or the smoke, or the shouting, or the long hair, or the short hair, or ...

Why fight it? There's a lot of room in the woods, find your own space elsewhere. No big deal.
True dat, This got a little of topic. I am very sensitive about folks leaving trash in the woods. I don't care if you disrespect me so much, but just respect the wilderness, comprende?

rafe
02-13-2008, 17:10
True dat, This got a little of topic. I am very sensitive about folks leaving trash in the woods. I don't care if you disrespect me so much, but just respect the wilderness, comprende?

In general, I do... but a shelter is inherently non-wilderness.

(PS, I wouldn't think twice about dropping a Snickers wrapper into a campfire. That one was new to me. ;))

Tin Man
02-13-2008, 17:14
One of my first nights on the AT, I set my tent up in a shelter. Didn't make the floor any softer, so now I look for a softer surface outside the shelter and set my tent there. No mice and no rules to worry about - well, there are no rules really, but some think there are.

Pedaling Fool
02-13-2008, 17:19
I knew someone that snored really loud and he hated shelters. So he would set his tent up right next to the shelter and keep everyone up with his snoring. That's kind of rude, but also kind of funny. Does that violate shelter etiquette?

dragonfeet
02-13-2008, 17:20
tent in a shelter? now thats just stupid. Its like going to a motel 6 and sleeping on a cot beside the bed

dragonfeet
02-13-2008, 17:21
I like to hike with two tents and sometimes i put up one tent inside the other you know for extra protection.

mosquito ninja
02-13-2008, 17:24
double bag it.

Tin Man
02-13-2008, 18:38
Snoring is breathing. Don't belittle the snorer, he cannot stop breathing. :)

The best shelter etiquette is to expect the worst behavior from those sharing the shelter. If you cannot tolerate it, etiquette says tent elsewhere.

max patch
02-13-2008, 19:17
The best shelter etiquette is to expect the worst behavior from those sharing the shelter. If you cannot tolerate it, etiquette says tent elsewhere.

No no no...If someone has a snoring problem -- and they know it -- common courtesy dictates that the snorer tent outside the shelter.

Unfortunately, common courtesy is rarely the rule in these cases.

I almost always tent as I don't want to listen to someones snoring and farting and getting up at 2 am to pee and the bozo who sets his alarm for 5:30 and on and on.

Tin Man
02-13-2008, 19:31
No no no...If someone has a snoring problem -- and they know it -- common courtesy dictates that the snorer tent outside the shelter.

Unfortunately, common courtesy is rarely the rule in these cases.

I almost always tent as I don't want to listen to someones snoring and farting and getting up at 2 am to pee and the bozo who sets his alarm for 5:30 and on and on.

One person's common courtesy is another person's inconvenience. Too much much of a "me" world today. Besides, no matter how courteous a fellow hiker might be, the mice have their own ideas for what courtesy is in their home. I always tent.

zoidfu
02-13-2008, 19:33
I must be the only person who's never, ever had a problem with mice. I must smell like a cat.

Marta
02-13-2008, 19:44
I must be the only person who's never, ever had a problem with mice. I must smell like a cat.

I could give you my cat. He'll make everything you own smell like cat PDQ. He especially likes to spray tents; and finds anything made of down irresistable.

Come to think of it...I haven't had as much mouse trouble as most hikers. That, and my penchant for off-season hiking, must be why I like shelters. Then there's the laziness thing, too.

rafe
02-13-2008, 19:45
One person's common courtesy is another person's inconvenience. Too much much of a "me" world today. Besides, no matter how courteous a fellow hiker might be, the mice have their own ideas for what courtesy is in their home. I always tent.

Cuts both ways. I mean, step back and listen to yourself. When you say, "I always tent," it could be taken to mean that you place your own prerogatives and interests etc. above all else -- and would forgo the possibility of interesting (and mutually rewarding) social interaction in order to have things your way.

I usually look forward to a night at a shelter as a sort of social adventure. It doesn't always pan out to my liking, but them's the breaks.

I like solitude, but one can have too much of a good thing. Night after night alone in the woods gets old pretty fast, IMO.

AT-HITMAN2005
02-13-2008, 19:46
do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

don't take more space then your sleeping bag needs on the shelter floor. and try not to hog the wall space hanging stuff either.

Tin Man
02-13-2008, 20:13
Cuts both ways. I mean, step back and listen to yourself. When you say, "I always tent," it could be taken to mean that you place your own prerogatives and interests etc. above all else -- and would forgo the possibility of interesting (and mutually rewarding) social interaction in order to have things your way.

I usually look forward to a night at a shelter as a sort of social adventure. It doesn't always pan out to my liking, but them's the breaks.

I like solitude, but one can have too much of a good thing. Night after night alone in the woods gets old pretty fast, IMO.

You do like to make a lot of assumptions, so let me clarify things for you. I always hike with a friend, usually my brother. I always tent, sometimes near a shelter and sometimes stealth. I do find social interactions interesting around a campfire, but that does not mean I have to sleep with other people. In fact, the etiquette police say I cannot since I snore and am not welcome. I guess shelters are for an exclusive club of the non-snoring public, but that's okay because I view sleeping as a private matter and prefer my own space.

NICKTHEGREEK
02-13-2008, 20:15
Cigarette butts thrown into a fire often do not get burned, ending up at the perimeter or the base. No one fishes them out if they don't. If you smoke, field strip your butt and pack out the filter.

As for paper in a fire, a lot of paper has toxic chemicals in the ink which are released by burning, and a lot of "paper" packaging isn't paper but plastic film, which is also toxic when burnt. Even true "paper" that has been food packaging shouldn't be burned, since trace food odors from the paper can be released during combustion, helping to draw animals to the shelter area.

Paper can be removed from 90% of packaging before a hike, with repackaging in ziplocs that can be used to pack garbage/trash out. NO trash or garbage should be put in fires, even paper.

TW
Did you actually read what you typed before you hit submit reply?
Oh yeah replace paper with plastic, just what every environmentalist supports, more plastics.
And animals are drawn to shelters by trace food odors from burnt paper???? WHAT ABOUT THE REGULAR ODORS???????

Lone Wolf
02-13-2008, 20:18
shelters, fire rings and the 300 yard radius around them suck. gotta be a fool to stay in a shelter :)

Tin Man
02-13-2008, 20:20
Did you actually read what you typed before you hit submit reply?
Oh yeah replace paper with plastic, just what every environmentalist supports, more plastics.
And animals are drawn to shelters by trace food odors from burnt paper???? WHAT ABOUT THE REGULAR ODORS???????

I thought Weasel's post was a little strange too, but not worth the effort to respond as it takes at least a page of posts to explain things and all you get is rebuttals.

Tin Man
02-13-2008, 20:30
shelters, fire rings and the 300 yard radius around them suck. gotta be a fool to stay in a shelter :)

"Fool" might not be the right term. Especially since many areas have regulations that you need to camp in designated campsites. I like to have a fire, so I mostly stay near a fire ring. I suppose I could build a stealth fire pit, but again many areas have regulations that frown on this. I don't want to think what the trail corridor might look like if everyone followed their own rules and stealthed wherever they pleased - today's 300 yard denuded shelter area might look trivial compared to what could happen.

Wise Old Owl
02-13-2008, 20:35
Yes, you're right, Max. But everything is cumulative, and in other places that aren't as heavily used as a shelter, burning waste paper in fires can draw animals that wouldn't otherwise appear, particularly noxious varmints like 'coons, 'possums and skunks.

TW

Ok, I am not going to pick this apart too much. Skunks & coons are not draw to the smells in a well made fire pit. They are drawn by smells associated by animal fats breaking down. Pour off any chicken fat off any griddle and you will have skunks for miles sniffing your tent and any other object that was close to where you dropped the fat. They are scavengers - Not fire pit honey's - If it is toast in a fire pit you have nothing to worry about. I made this mistake only once in a campground.

rafe
02-13-2008, 20:43
Come to think of it...I haven't had as much mouse trouble as most hikers. That, and my penchant for off-season hiking, must be why I like shelters. Then there's the laziness thing, too.

We're in the same boat, apparently. I think maybe the mice are worst when the shelters are heavily used (eg., during the early part of the nobo wave.) I only had "critter" problems once last summer, and that was at Calf Mtn. Shelter (SNP) just after Labor Day weekend.

Once humans stop visiting (and their crumbs & spills have all been consumed) there's no real reason for the mice to hang around.

Wise Old Owl
02-13-2008, 20:45
and you accuse me of negative posts? tellin' marta to "grow a pair"? :D dooood!


I am halfway through this tread and busting out with a belly laugh, LW I am starting to like you!:rolleyes: Woow!

Wise Old Owl
02-13-2008, 21:01
No no no...If someone has a snoring problem -- and they know it -- common courtesy dictates that the snorer tent outside the shelter.

Unfortunately, common courtesy is rarely the rule in these cases.

I almost always tent as I don't want to listen to someones snoring and farting and getting up at 2 am to pee and the bozo who sets his alarm for 5:30 and on and on.

Ok that is just wrong. They don't know it unless someone tells them. Quite a few people snore, some have terrible apnia like I did, I now help those that I can. I share my experiences, and my several surguries. but you don't know untill you have been tested by a professional or someone tells you busted the Richter Scale of snoring.

max patch
02-13-2008, 21:08
They don't know it unless someone tells them.

Thats what I meant - somone who snores and knows that they snore - but I guess I wrote it awkwardly.

Tin Man
02-13-2008, 21:11
Ok that is just wrong. They don't know it unless someone tells them. Quite a few people snore, some have terrible apnia like I did, I now help those that I can. I share my experiences, and my several surguries. but you don't know untill you have been tested by a professional or someone tells you busted the Richter Scale of snoring.

Thank you. Someone complained about my snoring once and I told him that he did a pretty good job himself. He had no idea. I just turned over and went back to sleep. I tent with my brother now and we take turns sleeping. ;)

Anyway, it turns out I have apnea too. I think many have it and don't know it. Sleep problems is one of the most underdiagnosed issues today, so they say. I had the surgery, tried the masking, now working with a dental appliance. Not quite there yet. Sucks. :(

DAKS
02-13-2008, 21:11
We're in the same boat, apparently. I think maybe the mice are worst when the shelters are heavily used (eg., during the early part of the nobo wave.) I only had "critter" problems once last summer, and that was at Calf Mtn. Shelter (SNP) just after Labor Day weekend.

Once humans stop visiting (and their crumbs & spills have all been consumed) there's no real reason for the mice to hang around.

calf mtn. shelter..........lottsa' mice there! stayed there this last august and they were everywhere! they love that shelter!

saimyoji
02-13-2008, 21:16
Farting can be offensive at times, and I guess if you're thru-hiking it gets old real quick....but there are times when farts can be downright entertaining. I remember one time when I farted in my sleep so loud I woke myself up and found 3 college kids rolling over each other laughing. :p

Gray Blazer
02-13-2008, 21:23
OK ...here's a really dumb question.

Why does a person need a tent INSIDE a shelter ??

Just curious ...

'Slogger

Answer: To piss people off.

Back to not burning paper in a fire at a shelter because the trace food odors can be released and animals can track it down and become unwanted shelter mascots...
...don't wear down jackets or use down sleeping bags in shelters. Wolves or coyotes or bear could smell the strong trace odors of geese and become attracted.
...don't bring food. The trace odors of the food could attract all animals .
...Don't wear anything synthetic. The trace odors of oil wells could attract terrorists.

Any animal that can smell the trace odors release into the air by burning food wrappers in a campfire, well, I wanna see that sucker.

Tin Man
02-13-2008, 21:23
Farting can be offensive at times, and I guess if you're thru-hiking it gets old real quick....but there are times when farts can be downright entertaining. I remember one time when I farted in my sleep so loud I woke myself up and found 3 college kids rolling over each other laughing. :p

Yes, but did you teach them how to play fart baseball?

My experience is shelter etiquette is everything goes and it is pointless to expect otherwise. Deal with it or leave. Pretty simple really. :)

saimyoji
02-13-2008, 21:29
Yes, but did you teach them how to play fart baseball?

My experience is shelter etiquette is everything goes and it is pointless to expect otherwise. Deal with it or leave. Pretty simple really. :)

At that time I had no idea what fart baseball was. Now that I kinda know, I'm not sure if I'd want to play. That and I don't have very good control. :o

Gray Blazer
02-13-2008, 21:31
At that time I had no idea what fart baseball was. Now that I kinda know, I'm not sure if I'd want to play. That and I don't have very good control. :o

Eat a whole bag of trail mix.:eek:

rafe
02-13-2008, 21:33
calf mtn. shelter..........lottsa' mice there! stayed there this last august and they were everywhere! they love that shelter!

It's not one of my favorites, for sure. Some critter stole one of my socks and chewed thru on of my pole straps. Not a biggie, as I was heading into Waynesboro the next morning anyway.

GGS2
02-13-2008, 21:34
... I don't want to think what the trail corridor might look like if everyone followed their own rules and stealthed wherever they pleased - today's 300 yard denuded shelter area might look trivial compared to what could happen.

I don't know what the accepted definition of stealth is, but to my way of thinking, it doesn't include fires and "stealth fire pits." I would say a proper stealth setup includes no fire at the camp, no permanent marks at the camp, whether tarp, tent or hammock, and cook at another site well away from camp. Some cook breakfast or coffee on an alcohol stove, but I wouldn't even do that. Camp dry and cold, walk an hour or two, make breakfast and whatever hot beverages you want, possibly including a cosy meal for lunch, walk on, stop for lunch or snack thru, take that time to make another cosy meal, walk on until dinner, eat whatever you like, heat up your water for camp, if you like, move on and camp again without fire, without food odors, without marks. The definition includes being hidden from people while at camp, and leaving no permanent traces there. If you need a fire, make one at a meal or rest stop, where permitted, or where there is a permanent fire pit or ring, and move away to camp for the night.

That's just my way of thinking.

Wise Old Owl
02-13-2008, 21:42
Thats what I meant - somone who snores and knows that they snore - but I guess I wrote it awkwardly.

You didn't write it awkwardly, You were awesome, you reminded me of a common issue around the shelters I hadn't thought of in a while I applaud you on a great effort & thought.

Tin Man
02-13-2008, 21:43
A stealth fire can be done just like stealth camping. It just takes a little more effort to select a good spot, completely burn the wood (small sticks work best), discard the dead out coals and restore the spot to the original look.

The Weasel
02-13-2008, 21:45
Did you actually read what you typed before you hit submit reply?
Oh yeah replace paper with plastic, just what every environmentalist supports, more plastics.
And animals are drawn to shelters by trace food odors from burnt paper???? WHAT ABOUT THE REGULAR ODORS???????

Yes, I read it. I'll do the details:

Yes, I replace paper with plastic. When I remove all the paper packaging at home, I can put it in the paper recycle bin here (which also accepts plastic containers). That way it doesn't get burned and turned into CO2. One pound of paper recycled, and not burned, means basically one pound of carbon that's not in the atmosphere, plus trace toxins (many of which are dangerous in trace amounts).

Then I put it in ziplocs. At least one of those becomes the garbage bag for a very small amount of unavoidable garbage and packaging, for me to pack out (yes, into the composting bin, when possible, for garbage, and the rest to recycle, again, if possible). Some ziplocks aren't "dirty" (crackers, pasta, etc) and get put into a separate "semi clean" ziploc to come home for reuse, with everything going in one "master" with uneaten food. Works out very simple. I usually have no more than 1-2 ziplocs. Those go to the Grocery Store "plastic bag recycle bin", also for recycling into park benches, etc.

As a result, there is virtually no "carbon footprint" from my packaging, no litter/left behind trash, no food odors (everything stays 'inside' a plastic bag).

As for food odors, animals close by to a cooking area will get those from cooking smells. Fire smells - which include food odors from burnt food and packaging - can be smelled for hundreds of yards or more.

Hope this clears it up for you. Most people knew these things already.

TW

Footslogger
02-13-2008, 21:46
[quote=saimyoji;535690]Farting can be offensive at times

===========================

...unless of course, it is part of a friendly game of fart baseball.

'Slogger

rafe
02-13-2008, 21:47
A stealth fire is an oxymoron, on a wooded trail like the AT.

fiddlehead
02-13-2008, 21:47
Stealth camping: "At least one tent stake ON THE TRAIL!"
Shelter ettiquette: "always room for one more in a storm"
Rainman quote: "No matter how hard you try, tin foil will not burn"

Gray Blazer
02-13-2008, 21:49
I'll bet you make everybody take their shoes off before they walk on the carpet in your house.

Tin Man
02-13-2008, 21:52
A stealth fire is an oxymoron, on a wooded trail like the AT.

How so? Perhaps you will see the smoke of a fire, but making the fire pit disappear is just another skill.

saimyoji
02-13-2008, 21:53
I'll bet you make everybody take their shoes off before they walk on the carpet in your house.

I do. My house is not the trail. Leave your mud and crap outside, or pick up the vacuum cleaner. :cool:

Bob S
02-13-2008, 21:58
I do. My house is not the trail. Leave your mud and crap outside, or pick up the vacuum cleaner. :cool:
Have them clean the carpet while they are there…

saimyoji
02-13-2008, 22:04
Have them clean the carpet while they are there…

Read the last 6 words of my post. ;)

rafe
02-13-2008, 22:19
How so? Perhaps you will see the smoke of a fire, but making the fire pit disappear is just another skill.

I suppose. :rolleyes: To my mind, that's a too much work and "engineering" for a stealth camp. A Zip stove is a lot less work. ;)

jesse
02-13-2008, 22:36
I would say a proper stealth setup includes no fire at the camp, no permanent marks at the camp, whether tarp, tent or hammock, and cook at another site well away from camp. Some cook breakfast or coffee on an alcohol stove, but I wouldn't even do that. Camp dry and cold,

I agree with no open fires outside of existing fire rings, but don't see the harm in using alcohol or cannister stoves anywhere one chooses. I don't think that violates LNT.

GGS2
02-13-2008, 22:40
It's sort of true that you can make a fire-pit disappear, but for the skill level of most hikers, that is not really realistic. In any case, a heavy use trail like the AT is probably not the best place to encourage people to practice such "primitive scout" skills. In any case, there will always be traces, and effects such as soil disturbance, and these are neither appreciated by caretakers nor will they be without cumulative effect. However, LNT is a mitigation strategy, not a hard and fast rule, so if you can practice stealth with a fire, and it is not against fire regulations, go to it.

As has been noted in other threads, the AT is not exactly back country. It is in fact a heavy use corridor. So techniques which would be entirely unobjectionable in true back country may not be best for the AT. This is why I defined stealth the way I did. It is a way of having as little effect as possible on the trail corridor, its flora and fauna, while preserving a little bit of back country feeling.

Tin Man
02-13-2008, 23:03
I agree a stealth fire pit is skill that requires extra work. I have not built one along the AT corridor and only post it as a possibility within areas where regulations permit. That said, I have come across unofficial campsites with stone fire rings that look like they have been around awhile. I do not feel that these take away from the wilderness experience and I would not hesitate to use if they fell within my plan for the day. Perhaps it is a bit lazy over stealthing, but better to use an unofficial site than stealthing in an undisturbed area. After all following LNT practices is never perfect and there is always some trace.

rafe
02-13-2008, 23:12
I agree a stealth fire pit is skill that requires extra work. I have not built one along the AT corridor and only post it as a possibility within areas where regulations permit.

Ha. Thought so. ;)


That said, I have come across unofficial campsites with stone fire rings that look like they have been around awhile. I do not feel that these take away from the wilderness experience and I would not hesitate to use if they fell within my plan for the day. Perhaps it is a bit lazy over stealthing, but better to use an unofficial site than stealthing in an undisturbed area. After all following LNT practices is never perfect and there is always some trace.

I wouldn't argue with any of that. If there's a fire pit already in place, I don't have serious qualms about using it. I remember that campfires were frequent and routine when I started backpacking decades ago, and I do miss them...

Lone Wolf
02-13-2008, 23:17
i do my own fire pits on occasion. no biggie. outa site outa mind

Tin Man
02-13-2008, 23:24
I have done my own fire pits plenty of times too, just not on the AT. Haven't found the need to, yet.

Bob S
02-13-2008, 23:39
If you want a fire while stealth camping for the night, why not carry a stainless steel dinner plate and have the fire in it? You prop it up a few inches of the ground with rocks and burn all the wood you want on the plate. In the morning you dump the ashes into a bag, take them to a shelter when you pass one and dump them in the fire pit. Or burry them at the site you camped.

This way you get your fire and still adhere to LNT.

Tin Man
02-13-2008, 23:48
If you want a fire while stealth camping for the night, why not carry a stainless steel dinner plate and have the fire in it? You prop it up a few inches of the ground with rocks and burn all the wood you want on the plate. In the morning you dump the ashes into a bag, take them to a shelter when you pass one and dump them in the fire pit. Or burry them at the site you camped.

This way you get your fire and still adhere to LNT.

That's one technique. A friend went on a rafting expedition where the leaders used a large steel sheet. They dumped the ashes in the river, saying that was the best way to disperse the ashes. Another way is to use a small tarp, put dirt on it, build your fire on the mound of dirt and return the dirt from where you took it. The ashes are good for the soil if spread out sufficiently. There are several other techniques involving digging below the topsoil layer or building on rocks in a dry stream bed, using a mix of soil to bury or spread out the ashes. Just keep the fire small and it is no problem.

River Runner
02-14-2008, 00:20
Answer: To piss people off.

Back to not burning paper in a fire at a shelter because the trace food odors can be released and animals can track it down and become unwanted shelter mascots...
...don't wear down jackets or use down sleeping bags in shelters. Wolves or coyotes or bear could smell the strong trace odors of geese and become attracted.
...don't bring food. The trace odors of the food could attract all animals .
...Don't wear anything synthetic. The trace odors of oil wells could attract terrorists.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/funny.gif

I don't generally burn trash in fire pits (although rarely I have thrown in a wrapper from a late night snack after the bear bag was hung). But, any slight residual food odor from a burnt wrapper would be way less than that on my breath, lingering from dinner having been cooked earlier, or from slight crumbs that might have dropped to the ground, not to mention the lingering odor from carrying a food bag in my pack earlier in the day, or an energy bar in my pants pocket.

It is not a compelling reason not to burn a wrapper or two. I'm not even sure that the environmental argument against burning versus dumping it in a landfill forever is a good one.

Packing it out is preferable, but I'm not going to get overly alarmed if someone toasts a snickers wrapper.

Now I do agree, it should not be left unburned in a fire pit (or anywhere else).

Bob S
02-14-2008, 00:32
Every animal on this planet has a fear of fire & smoke, what does a fire ring smell like? It smells like fire & smoke. I don’t think burning some paper is an issue like some are making it out to be.

Matteroo
02-14-2008, 00:38
We put our tent up in a shelter in the middle of the day during heat waves in NJ. The flies and mosquitos were terrible and the heat was oppressive. Hiking 6-8 miles in the morning, wait out in a shelter from 10:30-6pm, then hike 6-8 more miles by dark. Too hot to put the tent up outside of the shelter-any direct sun on it would heat it the heck up beyond tolerable, not that it was THAT much cooler in the shelter-but it was enough of a diff.

as for LNT, I can step into someone's shoes who is anti-unattended trail magic, and see how it could be spoiling something in their experience-ie, seeing the cold water in jugs in a waterless area or cooler with soda in it 50 feet after the road is a real downer. Especially since they crossed that pristine au' natural home grown road 50 feet back, the trail magic interrupted their 50 mile span without seeing a single sign of human influence..
Yeah I have a vague idea that the trail magic isn't natural and thus upsets them-but neither are ANY of the roads. Leaving trail-magic trash all over though is annoying-but that seems like the exception and not the rule.

shouts to mac and cheese and noodle's trail magic there in New York near the border with CT. I liked that one.

The Old Fhart
02-14-2008, 06:50
Bob S-"Every animal on this planet has a fear of fire & smoke, what does a fire ring smell like? It smells like fire & smoke. I don’t think burning some paper is an issue like some are making it out to be."I remember the deer at Gravel Springs Hut in SNP waking us up all night chewing on the charcoal in the fire pit, which was quite loud. We'd scare them off but they would come back again to continue munching. I believed someone dumped soup or something edible in the fire. Most animals have a fear of humans but the deer in SNP would come right up to shelters and eat t-shirts hung out to dry or the grip on Leki hiking poles to get the salt from these sweat-soaked items.

hobojoe
02-14-2008, 12:02
I remember the deer at Gravel Springs Hut in SNP waking us up all night chewing on the charcoal in the fire pit, which was quite loud. We'd scare them off but they would come back again to continue munching. I believed someone dumped soup or something edible in the fire. Most animals have a fear of humans but the deer in SNP would come right up to shelters and eat t-shirts hung out to dry or the grip on Leki hiking poles to get the salt from these sweat-soaked items.
That is the same place (maybe deer) that I couldn't get to stop drinking my urine. I had barely put the lizard away and the dumb animal was licking my piss puddle.

hobojoe
02-14-2008, 12:07
Yes, I read it. I'll do the details:

Yes, I replace paper with plastic. When I remove all the paper packaging at home, I can put it in the paper recycle bin here (which also accepts plastic containers). That way it doesn't get burned and turned into CO2. One pound of paper recycled, and not burned, means basically one pound of carbon that's not in the atmosphere, plus trace toxins (many of which are dangerous in trace amounts).

Then I put it in ziplocs. At least one of those becomes the garbage bag for a very small amount of unavoidable garbage and packaging, for me to pack out (yes, into the composting bin, when possible, for garbage, and the rest to recycle, again, if possible). Some ziplocks aren't "dirty" (crackers, pasta, etc) and get put into a separate "semi clean" ziploc to come home for reuse, with everything going in one "master" with uneaten food. Works out very simple. I usually have no more than 1-2 ziplocs. Those go to the Grocery Store "plastic bag recycle bin", also for recycling into park benches, etc.

As a result, there is virtually no "carbon footprint" from my packaging, no litter/left behind trash, no food odors (everything stays 'inside' a plastic bag).

As for food odors, animals close by to a cooking area will get those from cooking smells. Fire smells - which include food odors from burnt food and packaging - can be smelled for hundreds of yards or more.

Hope this clears it up for you. Most people knew these things already.

TW
When you buy a box of crackers and put them into a ziplock, thats twice the packaging no matter how many times you use it. This effectivley doubles your carbon footprint. Include materials and energy to make both packages, cost of recycling etc. one package is always better than two. I'm not worried about a few cracker crumbs in my food bag. I use ziplocks sparingly at mosty.

jlb2012
02-14-2008, 12:20
I remember the deer at Gravel Springs Hut in SNP waking us up all night chewing on the charcoal in the fire pit, which was quite loud. We'd scare them off but they would come back again to continue munching. I believed someone dumped soup or something edible in the fire. Most animals have a fear of humans but the deer in SNP would come right up to shelters and eat t-shirts hung out to dry or the grip on Leki hiking poles to get the salt from these sweat-soaked items.


That is the same place (maybe deer) that I couldn't get to stop drinking my urine. I had barely put the lizard away and the dumb animal was licking my piss puddle.

This is definately the same place that had (has?) the raccoons that could climb the bear poles and help themselves to one's food bag.

DesertMTB
02-14-2008, 13:02
Every animal on this planet has a fear of fire & smoke, what does a fire ring smell like? It smells like fire & smoke. I don’t think burning some paper is an issue like some are making it out to be.

I agree 100 percent.

In any case, I don't see anything wrong with stealth fires as long. Fires occur naturally in the forrest. Some charred soil is no big deal. The most important thing is to make sure the stealth fire is out before leaving.

rafe
02-14-2008, 13:04
The most important thing is to make sure the stealth fire is out before leaving.

Famous last words... :rolleyes:

Kara
02-14-2008, 13:09
Wow!! This thread is great!! I've only just begun to contemplate a thru-hike, and I can't wait to see all this in action!!

Too many funny things said here to quote, but I love the "double bagging it" and the carrying of two tents... I also enjoyed the advise of not wearing a down jacket or anything synthetic...gotta avoid those terrorists ya know... love it..

For real though, this is all good stuff and gives me a little more realistic "what to expect" kind of things. Lots of different points of views which gives me lots of options to choose from. Thanks to all of you!

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 13:21
If you want a fire while stealth camping for the night, why not carry a stainless steel dinner plate and have the fire in it? You prop it up a few inches of the ground with rocks and burn all the wood you want on the plate. In the morning you dump the ashes into a bag, take them to a shelter when you pass one and dump them in the fire pit. Or burry them at the site you camped.

This way you get your fire and still adhere to LNT.

Actually, not. The airspace below the plate becomes a convection oven, with temps probably in the 500+ level from the pure coals at the bottom of the plate. That will sterilize anything under it from 1 to 6 inches down.

TW

hobojoe
02-14-2008, 13:24
Wow!! This thread is great!! I've only just begun to contemplate a thru-hike, and I can't wait to see all this in action!!

Too many funny things said here to quote, but I love the "double bagging it" and the carrying of two tents... I also enjoyed the advise of not wearing a down jacket or anything synthetic...gotta avoid those terrorists ya know... love it..

For real though, this is all good stuff and gives me a little more realistic "what to expect" kind of things. Lots of different points of views which gives me lots of options to choose from. Thanks to all of you!
No, thank you for listening. Happy hiking.

whitefoot_hp
02-14-2008, 13:26
Actually, not. The airspace below the plate becomes a convection oven, with temps probably in the 500+ level from the pure coals at the bottom of the plate. That will sterilize anything under it from 1 to 6 inches down.

TW
typical. Someone, in the name of LNT, imposes a standard on someone else that renders LNT a pipe dream.

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 13:31
People can do what they want. But it's "leave NO trace" not "leave FEW traces". Some people are able to do the "no trace" and others can't. The more you can do, great. But you're not going to get arrested for leaving some traces. Still...

TW

hobojoe
02-14-2008, 13:31
typical. Someone, in the name of LNT, imposes a standard on someone else that renders LNT a pipe dream.
You cannot exist on this earth without leaving a trace, mininize.

Tinker
02-14-2008, 13:33
I burn trash in fire pits. Isn't that what they're there for??? :p

Honestly, if you pick out the little bits of plastic and aluminum foil next morning and pack them out is it a big deal? I am with others here that are against leaving unburnables in a fire ring, though.
Canoists sometimes find a flat rock to build a cooking fire (not a bonfire) on, make sure it's completely out when they're done, then throw the rock in the river or lake. Unless someone's scuba diving, it's a "leave no trace" practice.
I'd rather use a stove, personally.

Tinker
02-14-2008, 13:36
I somehow avoided all the craziness in '06 when I was there.

Unless you count Frosty! :p

GGS2
02-14-2008, 13:36
Every animal on this planet has a fear of fire & smoke, what does a fire ring smell like? It smells like fire & smoke. I don’t think burning some paper is an issue like some are making it out to be.


I remember the deer at Gravel Springs Hut in SNP waking us up all night chewing on the charcoal in the fire pit, which was quite loud. ...


... Fires occur naturally in the forrest. Some charred soil is no big deal. The most important thing is to make sure the stealth fire is out before leaving.

Hmmm. Actually, natives used smoke smell as a mask for their own smell. Animals are quite used to the smell of smoke and burnt wood, etc. What I don't like are fire scars and bandit rings every which way, and areas where all the dead wood has been scavenged for bonfires. Generally, cooking fires are much less problem, especially if you use an efficient stove. You don't even have to use wood: you can get away with tinder of one sort or another. And food dumping is one of the things park people don't like as it interferes with the animals feeding and gathering habits. Tame deer and raccoons aren't very natural or healthy.

Pedaling Fool
02-14-2008, 13:40
Leave no trace was an all right idea, but people have taken it to the extremes, to the point it's just plain stupid. A stealth fire pit won't hurt a damn thing. I don't understand this mindset that the earth is a fragile system. Some people even think it best to pack out TP.

Slackpacking harms the environment more than a fire pit, but it doesn’t stop the self proclaimed environmentalist from spewing CO2 into the atmosphere.

Tinker
02-14-2008, 13:41
My second post, above was supposed to go on a different thread.

Strange!!!!?????

Lone Wolf
02-14-2008, 13:42
rip-roaring forest fires are wonderful for a forest and it's inhabitants

Gray Blazer
02-14-2008, 13:44
Wow!! This thread is great!! I've only just begun to contemplate a thru-hike, and I can't wait to see all this in action!!

Too many funny things said here to quote, but I love the "double bagging it" and the carrying of two tents... I also enjoyed the advise of not wearing a down jacket or anything synthetic...gotta avoid those terrorists ya know... love it..

For real though, this is all good stuff and gives me a little more realistic "what to expect" kind of things. Lots of different points of views which gives me lots of options to choose from. Thanks to all of you!

Don't wear your carbon shoes. You don't want to leave any carbon footprints.

GGS2
02-14-2008, 13:53
Leave no trace was an all right idea, but people have taken it to the extremes, to the point it's just plain stupid. A stealth fire pit won't hurt a damn thing. I don't understand this mindset that the earth is a fragile system. Some people even think it best to pack out TP.

Slackpacking harms the environment more than a fire pit, but it doesn’t stop the self proclaimed environmentalist from spewing CO2 into the atmosphere.


Never mind the slackpackers. Do you fly to the trailhead?

But the Earth is fragile, now that we are at the 6.5 billion going on 10-15 billion population. Notice that subdivision creeping up on the trail corridor? Notice the wastelands around the trail heads beside busy highways? Notice the re-routes wherever the trail has been trashed by too many thoughtless people? If we paid attention to our cumulative overuse, we would understand that trail degradation is only slight by comparison with the rampant overuse of our built environment.

Out west in the tourist destinations like Grand Canyon and Lake Powell, they understand the cumulative impact of many tourist catholes where they take decades to degrade. Out by the tumbling tp wads. Not so bad in a nice, damp, active forest soil.

whitefoot_hp
02-14-2008, 13:59
People can do what they want. But it's "leave NO trace" not "leave FEW traces". Some people are able to do the "no trace" and others can't. The more you can do, great. But you're not going to get arrested for leaving some traces. Still...

TW
yeah but no one can actually leave no trace. ever heard of trail erosion? yes, by walking on the trail, you are contributing to a very obvious 2000 mile trail. so to label an action at odds with LNT because it will sterilize a 6 inch radius is humorous and wrong.

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 14:11
Leave no trace was an all right idea, but people have taken it to the extremes, to the point it's just plain stupid. A stealth fire pit won't hurt a damn thing. I don't understand this mindset that the earth is a fragile system. Some people even think it best to pack out TP.

Slackpacking harms the environment more than a fire pit, but it doesn’t stop the self proclaimed environmentalist from spewing CO2 into the atmosphere.


One stealth fire pit may not harm "a damn thing" (it does, but let's leave that aside), but when you can't walk a trail for 15 minutes without seeing "stealth" rings, then there's damage. And it adds up over time.

Pack out TP? I've taught my Scouts to do just that, as well as solid waste itself. It's not hard, it's sanitary, and increasingly it's required in National and some State Parks. Some remote campsites that I've seen have toilet paper "fields" that are literally huge; the worst (but not the only) was on the Bruce Trail, desecreting a gorgeous area by a beach with.

Sorry you feel the way you do. LNT helps all of us, both to enjoy trails and the wild, and the live a better life on our planet.

TW

GGS2
02-14-2008, 14:29
... Some remote campsites that I've seen have toilet paper "fields" that are literally huge; ...

The worst I ever found was on a fairly remote river in Alberta. It was actually attached to a native fish camp. The whole area stank of fish, and I walked through it looking for the portage. On my way out, I came across a field and noticed all these little depressions. I was in the middle before I realized what they were. Kind of like finding yourself in the middle of a mine field. To top it off, it turned out I was miles from the portage. I could have skipped the whole scene. I did find a beautiful campsite a bit farther along that made up for it, though.

We can't live on Earth without leaving our traces, that much is true. It has always been true, always will be true. The problem is that we are too many for the Earth to sweep up after. Too many and increasing. So, to keep a few places tolerably wild, we have to practice LNT. I don't look forward much to living on Earth when we have succeeded in reducing the wild to little postage stamps here and there. One of the most pitiable scenes I have ever come across was at Catherdral Grove on Vancouver Island. I little patch of a couple of acres of old growth rain forest, with interpretive signs and a little parking lot. Those magnificent beings in all stages of life. MacBlo was kind enough to stop before they had razed the entire island, but only just. It was maybe a ten minute walk to hike the trail slowly. And all around for as far as you could see or drive, the little spindly stalks of regrowth. Not the same thing at all.

rafe
02-14-2008, 14:33
I don't understand this mindset that the earth is a fragile system. Some people even think it best to pack out TP.


It's only fragile if you think of the Holocene (the most recent 20,000 years or so) in comparison to the Earth's age (say, 4,500,000,000 years.) The Earth isn't fragile, per se. It's only fragile in the sense of supporting homo sapiens and its current population and habits. ;)

BR360
02-14-2008, 14:33
Uh, this is a serious query, because I am confused.

The title of this thread says "Class of 2008. This is a private forum for only 2008 thru-hikers."

Yet it seems that many posting are NOT 2008 thru-hikers.

Is this evidence that it's OK to bend the rules (as is common here on WB)?

Or can "private forum" be construed to mean "just between anyone and those people who have identified themselves as having the intention to complete the AT this year"?

?????????????????????

I say this because I have considered posting to this thread, then realized that I have no intentions at this time to be a "2008 Thru."

MOWGLI
02-14-2008, 14:36
BR360, post here if you like without worries. I hope that answers your question.

BR360
02-14-2008, 14:39
Thanks, Mowgli. But would you mind 'splaining a little further? I've got cognitive dissonance, which is a dam* fancy way of saying I'm still confused about the relevance of the thread title....

Pedaling Fool
02-14-2008, 14:41
One stealth fire pit may not harm "a damn thing" (it does, but let's leave that aside), but when you can't walk a trail for 15 minutes without seeing "stealth" rings, then there's damage. And it adds up over time.

Pack out TP? I've taught my Scouts to do just that, as well as solid waste itself. It's not hard, it's sanitary, and increasingly it's required in National and some State Parks. Some remote campsites that I've seen have toilet paper "fields" that are literally huge; the worst (but not the only) was on the Bruce Trail, desecreting a gorgeous area by a beach with.

Sorry you feel the way you do. LNT helps all of us, both to enjoy trails and the wild, and the live a better life on our planet.

TW
So you're one of those used TP packers. Interesting:-?

The reason you see so much TP in places like GSMNP "Toilet Areas" is because new deposits are constantly being placed there without burying. I know it's disgusting, that's why I hike on and find "virgin" ground. Even if people were to bury the stuff there I'd still hike out to do my business, because it's inevitable that you will dig up someone’s cat-hole.

Having said that it doesn't hurt the environment, it's just ugly. The earth will swallow it up; just like it does with all the leaves that fall to the ground. And with time eventually the earth will get help from a fire and the cycle starts all over.

hobojoe
02-14-2008, 14:52
Uh, this is a serious query, because I am confused.

The title of this thread says "Class of 2008. This is a private forum for only 2008 thru-hikers."

Yet it seems that many posting are NOT 2008 thru-hikers.

Is this evidence that it's OK to bend the rules (as is common here on WB)?

Or can "private forum" be construed to mean "just between anyone and those people who have identified themselves as having the intention to complete the AT this year"?

?????????????????????

I say this because I have considered posting to this thread, then realized that I have no intentions at this time to be a "2008 Thru."
I was posting mostly for the benifit of unexperienced "new" hikers, since I knew they would read this.

hobojoe
02-14-2008, 14:55
..........Some people even think it best to pack out TP.


Gizmo the ridge runner for the springer mt. section told all us '04 thrus to pack out tp and dog s***. Sorry, not on the AT quite yet. But i'll always obey park laws.

Pedaling Fool
02-14-2008, 14:56
I was posting mostly for the benifit of unexperienced "new" hikers, since I knew they would read this.
I didn't know this was the "Class of 2008" forum. I just hit "Today's Posts" at the top, so I guess I'm one of the unexperienced.

hobojoe
02-14-2008, 14:57
I didn't know this was the "Class of 2008" forum. I just hit "Today's Posts" at the top, so I guess I'm one of the unexperienced.
I'm not much for labels, just sick of trash in the woods.

DesertMTB
02-14-2008, 15:06
I'm not much for labels, just sick of trash in the woods.


Maybe you shouldn't hike in the woods anymore, hippie :D

BR360
02-14-2008, 15:06
I'm not much for labels, just sick of trash in the woods.

I'm in favor of rules when they inhibit anarchy. It is easy to drift in threads, because one person's ideas lead to a slightly different idea by someone else, etc, etc, ad infinitum. Just like this thread is now drifting. Some of that can be good, and some bad.

John Gault, I also wrote an entire post because I clicked on "Today's Posts" to get to the thread. Once I saw the topic, I wanted to contribute, and wrote a response, but before I posted it, I saw it was Class of 2008/private. I deleted my post.

Then, seeing other's posts, I began to wonder what the real "rules" are...
Shelter Ethics is a good topic that perhaps should be moved to another Thread category??

GGS2
02-14-2008, 15:07
It's only fragile if you think of the Holocene (the most recent 20,000 years or so) in comparison to the Earth's age (say, 4,500,000,000 years.) The Earth isn't fragile, per se. It's only fragile in the sense of supporting homo sapiens and its current population and habits. ;)

Right on.

GGS2
02-14-2008, 15:10
... Yet it seems that many posting are NOT 2008 thru-hikers.

Is this evidence that it's OK to bend the rules (as is common here on WB)? ...

No, it means I'm a boorish intruder and thread snatcher. I'll stop now. Sorry.

hobojoe
02-14-2008, 15:23
I'm in favor of rules when they inhibit anarchy. It is easy to drift in threads, because one person's ideas lead to a slightly different idea by someone else, etc, etc, ad infinitum. Just like this thread is now drifting. Some of that can be good, and some bad.

John Gault, I also wrote an entire post because I clicked on "Today's Posts" to get to the thread. Once I saw the topic, I wanted to contribute, and wrote a response, but before I posted it, I saw it was Class of 2008/private. I deleted my post.

Then, seeing other's posts, I began to wonder what the real "rules" are...
Shelter Ethics is a good topic that perhaps should be moved to another Thread category??
No, because most of this stuff should be common knowledge to alumni, newbies need to read this stuff so I see less levis and cotton socks at springer mt.


Maybe you shouldn't hike in the woods anymore, hippie :D
I didn't mean hiker trash, just white trash.

BR360
02-14-2008, 15:23
No, it means I'm a boorish intruder and thread snatcher. I'll stop now. Sorry.

Me too!

Rain Man
02-14-2008, 15:26
Thats what I meant - somone who snores and knows that they snore - but I guess I wrote it awkwardly.

Yes. And the same rule should apply to those who stink and know it.

After all, some have a better sense of smell than of hearing!
:D
Rain:sunMan

.

hobojoe
02-14-2008, 15:28
(reguarding snorers)

Yes. And the same rule should apply to those who stink and know it.

After all, some have a better sense of smell than of hearing!
:D
Rain:sunMan

.
Shelters would be empty every night.

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 15:44
So you're one of those used TP packers. Interesting:-?

The reason you see so much TP in places like GSMNP "Toilet Areas" is because new deposits are constantly being placed there without burying. I know it's disgusting, that's why I hike on and find "virgin" ground. Even if people were to bury the stuff there I'd still hike out to do my business, because it's inevitable that you will dig up someone’s cat-hole.

Having said that it doesn't hurt the environment, it's just ugly. The earth will swallow it up; just like it does with all the leaves that fall to the ground. And with time eventually the earth will get help from a fire and the cycle starts all over.


John: I think you're wrong. In two ways.

First, TP, even if buried 12-18" deep - which usually it isn't, even when the soil permits it, which usually it won't due to rocks and roots - catholes are dug up by varmints (skunks, 'coons, 'possums, mice and others) to eat the feces, which contains a very high amount of food value. That's what gets the paper up more of time than anything else. It's not preventable.

Second, TP doesn't biodegrade as fast as people think. Minimum is usually 2 years, even in very wet soil, and up to 10 years or more in normal soil. In dry environments it can last for decades.

Neither of these are opinion; they're well recognized facts, and it's more than unsightly: There's a lot of scientific research indicating that the explosion in giardia across North America is due to human waste in the cycle, because of #1 above, i.e. human waste creates runoff or is eaten by animals, who become infected, and then their waste contaminates water sources too, then back to humans and so on.

I had this discussion with Scouts about 10 years back before going to Isle Royale with a group of 8 boys and me and another leader. We planned 2# of food for each person per day, for 10 days, or a total of 200#. I asked the boys how much solid waste would result from that, and they were amazed to realize that the solid waste basically equals intake: 200 pounds of it would be "left behind". I then got 10 bricks of Velveeta, which is 2# each and about the same consistency as solid waste, and at that point, 8 young men who firmly believed they were fantastic at "LNT" realized that it is more than packing out a few cans and some wrappers. "Pack it in, pack it out" meant more to them, and they were very good about it.

So yeah, I'm a TP Packer, in and out. I think it matters. Think about it: If 1,000 thru hikers start from Springer this month and next, that's a ton of waste on the side of the AT and by shelters every day. Some people agree with me that it's time to change that. Others don't - yet - and I"m not going to yell at them, but it really does hurt the environment. (If you really, really, really disagree with me, then go ahead and use your front lawn!:D)

TW

BR360
02-14-2008, 15:55
JThat's what gets the paper up more of time than anything else. It's not preventable.TW

Sorry, but I've seen WAY more instances where the TP blooms are just lyiung around in the same area, without ANY evidence of it being dug up. It is like the "broken window" scene in NYC. Once there's one, it "gives permission," then there's two, etc. Especially on trails used by dayhikers, who may have never heard of LNT, or been advised of proper backcountry ethics.

You know, strewn there by the dolts like the guy I saw hiking on the Black Mountain Crest Trail last year, almost 4 miles from the parking area, without water, and in flip-flops, no map, etc. "Do you know how to get back to the parking area?" Doh!

rafe
02-14-2008, 16:08
Neither of these are opinion; they're well recognized facts, and it's more than unsightly: There's a lot of scientific research indicating that the explosion in giardia across North America is due to human waste in the cycle, because of #1 above, i.e. human waste creates runoff or is eaten by animals, who become infected, and then their waste contaminates water sources too, then back to humans and so on.

I don't understand. Why is that human waste is the cause of the (alleged) "explosion" in giardia? Please provide a cite for some of that scientific research you refer to.

MOWGLI
02-14-2008, 16:12
There's a lot of scientific research indicating that the explosion in giardia across North America is due to human waste in the cycle...



TW

Can you please post some links to some of these studies.

Alligator
02-14-2008, 16:19
I was skeptical too but today is Valentine's Day. Feel the love...:jump

jesse
02-14-2008, 16:43
I will burn used TP, if I have a really hot fire, otherwise I pack it out. I do not burn wrappers. I always leave the fire ring / campsite cleaner than I found it. In the past I have thrown TP in the privy, but I will pack it out now. I always hike with my son. I hope to be a good example to him.

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 16:46
I don't understand. Why is that human waste is the cause of the (alleged) "explosion" in giardia? Please provide a cite for some of that scientific research you refer to.


Can you please post some links to some of these studies.

Here is one that is very good. If you want more, google: "human waste" giardia

http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/courses/nr201/research/examples/great2.pdf

TW

Pedaling Fool
02-14-2008, 17:29
Here is one that is very good. If you want more, google: "human waste" giardia

http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/courses/nr201/research/examples/great2.pdf

TW
What does packing out TP have to do with giardia? If you want to prevent giardia don't $hit in the water sources. You don't have to be a LNT zealot to see the wisdom in that.

According to your article TP isn't the real problem, it's human waste. However, they insist you pack out TP because an animal may dig it up and get sick from the chemicals in the TP. Well the TP won't attract the stupid animal it'd be the human waste, what about all those nasty pathogens the article mentions, won't that harm the animal? Seems to me it's a pretty good argument for packing out your waste - you can pack it out, I'll just $hit in the woods as nature intended.

hobojoe
02-14-2008, 17:33
Seriously he's right though. I always get sick from eating deer pellets.....doesn't mean I'm smart enough to stop eating them.

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 17:37
What does packing out TP have to do with giardia? If you want to prevent giardia don't $hit in the water sources. You don't have to be a LNT zealot to see the wisdom in that.

According to your article TP isn't the real problem, it's human waste. However, they insist you pack out TP because an animal may dig it up and get sick from the chemicals in the TP. Well the TP won't attract the stupid animal it'd be the human waste, what about all those nasty pathogens the article mentions, won't that harm the animal? Seems to me it's a pretty good argument for packing out your waste - you can pack it out, I'll just $hit in the woods as nature intended.

The question was whether there was research about giardia being increasingly due to human waste, which is what this (and much else) indicates. As to TP, I think you skimmed the article too fast; the article makes clear that TP play a role in disease vectoring, doesn't biodegrade as fast as people think, and gets dug up often, which I also mentioned.

Many of the pathogens do harm anipals, including giardia, which facilitates its own dispersal by causing diarrhea in animals who then, in water, disperse it further. Other bacteria may be benign to some animals, but pass through their gut to the envirnment and cause diseases in others, or continue onward in the disease line towards humans. Crypto may be one such.

Much of this is in the excellent, if inelegantly titled, book "How to *hit in the Woods," written by a highly experienced Grand Canyon river guide. It's worth getting and reading.

As for the rest, J, you can do as you wish, but I hope you'll consider changing, at least some.

TW

TW

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 17:38
Seriously he's right though. I always get sick from eating deer pellets.....doesn't mean I'm smart enough to stop eating them.

They're like potato chips. You can't stop with just one. It's the crunch, salty, chewy combination, isn't it? And easier to carry than moose flops.

TW

kayak karl
02-14-2008, 17:43
Almost as funny as the full bug suit.
and your problem with a bug suit IS???

hobojoe
02-14-2008, 17:48
and your problem with a bug suit IS???
No problem.... I love to laugh!!

Alligator
02-14-2008, 17:53
The question was whether there was research about giardia being increasingly due to human waste, which is what this (and much else) indicates. That article you quoted has two references that deal with giardia correlating with human camping areas. Those other two articles each reference one other primary study on giardia. One was in the Sierra Nevadas and one in the Rocky Mountains. Your one reference does not support this explosion being caused by humans across North America, it only applies to two sites. If you feel the need to convince people, try some more primary research studies and include the page numbers. I had to scan the Cole 1989 article and it is 133 pages long:rolleyes:.

Alligator
02-14-2008, 17:54
Oh, and Happy Valentine's Day The Weasel;).

Pedaling Fool
02-14-2008, 18:00
The question was whether there was research about giardia being increasingly due to human waste, which is what this (and much else) indicates. As to TP, I think you skimmed the article too fast; the article makes clear that TP play a role in disease vectoring, doesn't biodegrade as fast as people think, and gets dug up often, which I also mentioned.

Many of the pathogens do harm anipals, including giardia, which facilitates its own dispersal by causing diarrhea in animals who then, in water, disperse it further. Other bacteria may be benign to some animals, but pass through their gut to the envirnment and cause diseases in others, or continue onward in the disease line towards humans. Crypto may be one such.

Much of this is in the excellent, if inelegantly titled, book "How to *hit in the Woods," written by a highly experienced Grand Canyon river guide. It's worth getting and reading.

As for the rest, J, you can do as you wish, but I hope you'll consider changing, at least some.

TW

TW
No I read about the "problems" with degrading TP, I don't believe it. I have a compost pile in which I put paper/napkins in and they degrade just fine.

But the real issue, I would think for the "environmental conscious" is the human waste. Again the article seems to make a good case for packing out human waste, yet focuses on packing out TP. What gives? If they really cared about the environment they’d pack out the really bad stuff. You know the stuff that causes diseases. As you mentioned some animals may be immuned to certain pathogens, but it still causes harm when it passes through their digestive system and is reintroduced to the environment.

Appalachian Tater
02-14-2008, 18:06
I don't know about giardia in particular, but it is well-known that human waste pollutes water and spreads all sorts of diseases. I've never known any scientist to debate that at all.

Pedaling Fool
02-14-2008, 18:18
I don't know about giardia in particular, but it is well-known that human waste pollutes water and spreads all sorts of diseases. I've never known any scientist to debate that at all.
I don't dispute that, but I'm not packing my crap out. I don't feel guilty about that, but I'd think the "environmentally conscious" that pack out TP because they care so much about the environment, would feel at least a little guilty for leaving all that nasty bad $hit.

Nean
02-14-2008, 18:20
After years of seeing TP along the trail I decided I was capable of packing mine out and I think it would be best if everyone else did too.:-?;)

Alligator
02-14-2008, 18:20
I don't know about giardia in particular, but it is well-known that human waste pollutes water and spreads all sorts of diseases. I've never known any scientist to debate that at all.If it's not treated properly.

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 18:22
That article you quoted has two references that deal with giardia correlating with human camping areas. Those other two articles each reference one other primary study on giardia. One was in the Sierra Nevadas and one in the Rocky Mountains. Your one reference does not support this explosion being caused by humans across North America, it only applies to two sites. If you feel the need to convince people, try some more primary research studies and include the page numbers. I had to scan the Cole 1989 article and it is 133 pages long:rolleyes:.

Gator, I have nother things to do than research supporting what I already know from researching it in the past. If you spend some time, you'll see that I'm right. There's a lot out there for the principle stated in my earlier post. I'd rather be wrong, but I'm not, to my regret.

TW

Alligator
02-14-2008, 18:23
Demonstrate where backcountry catholes are spreading diseases (particularly giardia) and you'd have a better case. You made the statement, back it up appropriately. You know what, you injure your cause by not doing it.

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 18:28
Al---

I know 'sleep alligator' don't work much. But I'm a Casey Stenghel type. "If you don't believe ,e, yhou could look it up."


TW

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 18:28
Sorry for typos: "If you don't believe me, you could look it up."

Bob S
02-14-2008, 19:30
Sorry for typos: "If you don't believe me, you could look it up."

Look it up?

You are making the claim, the burden of proof is on you, not him.

GGS2
02-14-2008, 19:34
Look it up?

You are making the claim, the burden of proof is on you, not him.

What is this? An academic debating society? If you want to insist on standards like that, what are you doing on a hiking bulletin board? Do some spade work yourself and form your (informed) opinion. Or wait for the book...

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 19:35
When I'm in court, Bob, there's a burden of proof. If you don't believe me, think about it, and you'll reason through that I'm right. If you care, look it up. If you don't care, ignore me.

I've already mentioned that there is an excellent book, by Kathleen Meyer, "How to $hit In the Woods." It's now in its 2nd Edition, and has sold over 1,000,000 copies. It is fully researched, and very useful. Read it or not. And I've posted other research above, and how to google to get more.

Up to you.

TW

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 19:37
What is this? An academic debating society? If you want to insist on standards like that, what are you doing on a hiking bulletin board? Do some spade work yourself and form your (informed) opinion. Or wait for the book...


As noted, the book has been out for a decade. it's now in 2nd edition.

Those who think it's harmless are free to defecate in their front yards, and to install pre-treatment systems to their water sources at home so that they can put feces in their water.

Me, I don't. And when possible, I pack out what I pack in.

TW

TW

GGS2
02-14-2008, 19:41
As noted, the book has been out for a decade. ...

Yup, I read it when it came out, oh, a long time ago. Anything new in the second edition?

Tin Man
02-14-2008, 19:53
Yup, I read it when it came out, oh, a long time ago. Anything new in the second edition?

Just more poo.

Bob S
02-14-2008, 19:56
What is this? An academic debating society? If you want to insist on standards like that, what are you doing on a hiking bulletin board? Do some spade work yourself and form your (informed) opinion. Or wait for the book...


When a person makes a claim as to any topic, be it in a court or not, it is on them to back up what they say. This is just plane common sense.

It’s one thing to state opinions (like I think my Svea 123 is the best stove made) that don’t need to be backed up because it’s s personal like. But to make a statement about something and then tell the other person that asks a question about what you said to look it up diminishes your argument and makes it look like an opinion instead of facts.

I don’t have a dog in this debate, but it seems like a cop-out to say something, not back it up with a link to any research on it. And then to tell the persons talking about it with you to go look it up themselves.

The Old Fhart
02-14-2008, 20:08
The Weasel-“First, TP, even if buried 12-18" deep - which usually it isn't, even when the soil permits it, which usually it won't due to rocks and roots - catholes are dug up by varmints (skunks, 'coons, 'possums, mice and others) to eat the feces, which contains a very high amount of food value.” Point of order, your honor. Actually your own reference (http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/courses/n...les/great2.pdf) says: "…dig a hole 6-8 inches deep using a small trowel…”

In order for TP to decompose properly it should be buried 6-8" deep. More than that and it will be more or less 'sealed' and not decompose properly.

Gray Blazer
02-14-2008, 20:18
I've already mentioned that there is an excellent book, by Kathleen Meyer, "How to $hit In the Woods." It's now in its 2nd Edition, and has sold over 1,000,000 copies.

TW

That's a lot of trees. I hope it was paperback. In this case LNT means Leave No Trees. My point being we are making more of a carbon footprint by making 12 pages on this mierda than by burning paper in a firepit (why worry about that when the poop from the outhouse will attract far more critters, by your admission) or having stealth fires or whatever. I learned when I was a boyscout....leave an area better than you found it. I believe in my heart that everyone who posts at whiteblaze endeavors to leave the AT or any other trail in pristine condition so that the next person will enjoy it just as much as they did. Thanks everybody for the education and I appreciate your efforts, especially people like Weasel (I'm really glad to know that I will never dig up your cathole inadvertantly since you pack it out) who make the trail a better place.

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 21:12
Yup, I read it when it came out, oh, a long time ago. Anything new in the second edition?

I think so, yes. It is now a bit long in the tooth, even in the second edition. Most people, from NOLS through BSA and a lot of the rest of the serious outdoor establishment increasingly agree with the entire concept: Pack it out unless you have to. So about all that's changed is that it's become very influential book over time.

TW

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 21:19
Point of order, your honor. Actually your own reference (http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/courses/n...les/great2.pdf) says: "…dig a hole 6-8 inches deep using a small trowel…”

In order for TP to decompose properly it should be buried 6-8" deep. More than that and it will be more or less 'sealed' and not decompose properly.

Everyone has an opinion! :D Yes, I noticed that. I've always understood that the top of the waste should be about 6", and if a hole is only 8" deep, once waste is in it, particularly if paper is added, there will be very little covering and it is more likely to be dug up. Meyer ("How to...") also says 6-8". What's important is to keep it in the decomposition area yet covered. But thanks for the correction.

TW

The Weasel
02-14-2008, 21:23
When a person makes a claim as to any topic, be it in a court or not, it is on them to back up what they say. This is just plane common sense.

It’s one thing to state opinions (like I think my Svea 123 is the best stove made) that don’t need to be backed up because it’s s personal like. But to make a statement about something and then tell the other person that asks a question about what you said to look it up diminishes your argument and makes it look like an opinion instead of facts.

I don’t have a dog in this debate, but it seems like a cop-out to say something, not back it up with a link to any research on it. And then to tell the persons talking about it with you to go look it up themselves.

Bob, I've posted at least two good authorities, one a book and the other a Cornell University web page, that support what I say, and provided the Google search term to find thousands more. No one has posted anything that contradicts either of my references nor indicated that the search term is anything but accurate. So it's not my opinion. I'm just not going to play "fetch" until people that don't want to be shown that they're wrong, no matter whatg I find, get tired. Sorry if you think that's a cop out, but frankly, all it says is that you're part of the same game playing, or else you didn't bother to read what came before.

TW

ki0eh
02-15-2008, 10:18
Bob, I've posted at least two good authorities, one a book and the other a Cornell University web page * * *

I don't disagree with TW's message, and I did read the "Cornell University web page" and found it to be a very well written, and well referenced - example of a research paper for a sophomore-level undergraduate survey course in the University's Natural Resources academic department. The root link is http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/courses/nr201/start.html

So, again not to disagree, but this paper, good as it may be for what it is, is not the same as a peer reviewed journal article or even an Extension paper based on peer reviewed original research. As the folks in academia say in the interests of self preservation, "more research is needed."

Actually, I'm a little disappointed I didn't think of the TP question for my own master's research, it would have worked better for my program than what I did do. Plus, it would have required field time to investigate, collect data, etc.

Sounds like some grad student might be able to assemble a proposal in time to thru-hike in 2009 on this question - it's getting too late for '08. :D

Alligator
02-15-2008, 11:07
Bob, I've posted at least two good authorities, one a book and the other a Cornell University web page, that support what I say, and provided the Google search term to find thousands more. No one has posted anything that contradicts either of my references nor indicated that the search term is anything but accurate. So it's not my opinion. I'm just not going to play "fetch" until people that don't want to be shown that they're wrong, no matter whatg I find, get tired. Sorry if you think that's a cop out, but frankly, all it says is that you're part of the same game playing, or else you didn't bother to read what came before.

TWActually The Weasel, I told you that further inspection of the references contained in the Cornell "paper" showed that their discussion of the giardia/human correlation was based on only two study sites. This does not support your contention of an explosion of giardia across North America. That's a wild, completely unsupported position. Show us some real data, primary research to support your claims otherwise you are being irresponsible. Everytime somebody makes a wild claim I am not going to run off and Google it. If you can't back up what you say it's just your crazy opinion.

The Appalachians are part of North America. Show us the explosion of giardia occurring there from human waste.

Alligator
02-15-2008, 11:21
As noted, the book has been out for a decade. it's now in 2nd edition.

Those who think it's harmless are free to defecate in their front yards, and to install pre-treatment systems to their water sources at home so that they can put feces in their water.

Me, I don't. And when possible, I pack out what I pack in.

TW

TWMore irresponsibility. Lawns are not forests, the acreages are different and usage patterns are not the same. Also, in many places, people have both wells and septic systems on their property without problems:rolleyes:.

The Weasel
02-15-2008, 11:27
Gator, it's not a debate or a thing to get hostile about. Go learn about it, and you'll see. But as for wells, aquifers are below the 'sanitary' zone and groundwater is well filtered. Septic tanks are similarly deep, often solid. If you don't realize the problem they can cause if not sited properly, look up the meaning of the word "septic."

TW

hobojoe
02-15-2008, 11:35
You mean to say that you don't pack out your urine??? There is more of it and its pretty toxic stuff, right?

MOWGLI
02-15-2008, 11:37
Allowing people to stick their dirty grubby fingers into YOUR food bag is probably the #1 cause of Giardia. But that's a guess on my part.

Some might find this link interesting;
http://www.pcta.org/help/join/magazines/SierraWater.asp

The Weasel
02-15-2008, 11:42
You mean to say that you don't pack out your urine??? There is more of it and its pretty toxic stuff, right?

I know you're being playful, but that's a good, serious question, too: Nope, but it's not as likely to be a disease vector as solid waste. Assuming that people don't use the same 'target' but urinate in dispersed areas, animals are not going to lick the spot (for salt) and pick up any bacteria/viruses from it. That's the biggest difference. In addition, the solid part of urine is probably no more than 1% of volume, so that even a major bladder evacuation - 500 cc - is going to have no more than 5 grams of urinary salts. That's not as likely a point source for significant toxic runoff. Lastly, urine is devoid of food value for bacteria (there may be bacteria present, but they won't be able to feed from the rest of the urine) and soil is not immediately nutritive for those bacteria, while bacteria present in feces will grow and prosper due to the density and food value present in it.

So no, I don't.

TW

Alligator
02-15-2008, 11:43
Gator, it's not a debate or a thing to get hostile about. Go learn about it, and you'll see. But as for wells, aquifers are below the 'sanitary' zone and groundwater is well filtered. Septic tanks are similarly deep, often solid. If you don't realize the problem they can cause if not sited properly, look up the meaning of the word "septic."

TWI'm not running off on every Don Quixote crusade you present. Obviously you can't back up your claim.

As for septic systems, seems to me though they work when properly installed, sited, and maintained. The only real important point to mention it was your apples and oranges analogy.

rafe
02-15-2008, 11:45
Mowgli points out what is (IMO) the main problem with Weasel's "pack it out" suggestion for poop. Packaging and carrying could be a challenge and a health hazard all by itself. But then, I've always kinda wondered, if one could "catch" giardia from one's own poop? Not the most pleasant topic, I admit...

hobojoe
02-15-2008, 11:55
I know you're being playful, but that's a good, serious question, too: Nope, but it's not as likely to be a disease vector as solid waste. Assuming that people don't use the same 'target' but urinate in dispersed areas, animals are not going to lick the spot (for salt) and pick up any bacteria/viruses from it. That's the biggest difference. In addition, the solid part of urine is probably no more than 1% of volume, so that even a major bladder evacuation - 500 cc - is going to have no more than 5 grams of urinary salts. That's not as likely a point source for significant toxic runoff. Lastly, urine is devoid of food value for bacteria (there may be bacteria present, but they won't be able to feed from the rest of the urine) and soil is not immediately nutritive for those bacteria, while bacteria present in feces will grow and prosper due to the density and food value present in it.

So no, I don't.

TW
Posted around page 5. I had a dear in shenendoah that would not stop lapping up my urine. And I was using the broadcast method, weeeeeee!

hobojoe
02-15-2008, 11:56
I opened up a new thread with poll under health and hygene. This thread was getting kind of s**ty.

Tin Man
02-15-2008, 11:57
This conversation is going doing the toilet.

The Weasel
02-15-2008, 12:14
While some won't be satisfied no matter what is said on the topic of solid waste in the outback, I'll add a couple more items. All are CDC materials, and if you don't know what the CDC is, you should look that up.

The first - "Giardiasis Surveillance- United States 1998-2002" agrees with me that there are a large, and growing, number of cases of giardiasis nationally. While some will argue with my use of the term "explosion" in growth, I'm characterizing that in my historic terms - from the 50s to the present - and if you want to quibble with that, fine. But giardiasis is reported in 46 states, northern more than southern, and is a serious GI problem (no, I'm not talking about soldiers).

The second - "Giardiasis Surveillance - United States 1992-1997" - makes it pretty clear that there is an "explosion" (although that term isn't used), with reported cases doubling in that period from 12,700 to over 27,000 annually. (The first report notes that in 2002 they are about 20,000, which represents a 50% increase over 1992.)

In terms of the "explosion", however, one of the conclusions of the authors of the 1998-2002 report is really significant: Actual cases are probably in the range from over 400,000 to 2,100,000 annually (they conclude that the actual number probably falls in between this estimates). An appropriate assumption from this is that actual cases fall in the average of this range, or about 1,250,000 annually. Assuming (again) that each case would happen to a different person, that means that about 1 in 20 Americans will suffer from it each year.

It's not just a "wilderness" disease, I know. But one of the key points in public health (a lawyer? how does he know such things? Well, leave aside that I've been fascinated by it since I earned Public Health Merit Badge back in 1959, my wife's son just changed from Ph.D. candidate to Ph.D. yesterday, in public health, so I kind of have a resident expert around) is that in home environments there are specific things that need to be done to prevent it which are commonly followed by most people, such as chlorination of swimming pools and sanitary plumbing systems. In the wilderness, though, there isn't much being done, and there is a tremendous septic solid waste load being deposited along trails, near campsites, and close to water sources. Do the 'thought experiment' yourself: If there are 1,500 thruhikers starting from Springer in February and March, and another 500 'sectioners' starting at Springer and going 50 miles up the line, all averaging 10 miles a day, those 50 miles of Georgia are going to have 10,000 pounds of human waste - 5 tons - in close proximity to the Trail, much of it clustered by shelters and the rest rarely more than 100 feet (yes, I know the 'rule' and yes, I know that few follow it consistently) from the pathway. Think of it another way: That's about the same amount of human solid waste as, say, Hot Springs, NC produces in 3 or 4 days.

If someone here started suggesting that it would be OK to bury 5 tons of litter, trash, tuna cans and more along the AT, and dig garbage dumps by every shelter, we'd all go nuts. Instead, we all (mostly) agree that if we "pack it in, pack it out". Human waste isn't any different.

By the way, it's very easy, sanitary, and safe to pack it out, done properly. Which takes less time than digging a cathole, too.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5401a2.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss4907a1.htm

The Weasel

The Weasel
02-15-2008, 12:16
I opened up a new thread with poll under health and hygene. This thread was getting kind of s**ty.

Excellent idea. I don't know if posts can be transferred there. I'll wait a bit, and if they aren't, I'll copy my last one over to that one.

TW

MOWGLI
02-15-2008, 12:24
By the way, it's very easy, sanitary, and safe to pack it out, done properly. Which takes less time than digging a cathole, too.


The Weasel

Russ, I suggest you work on your persuasion techniques. I understand what you'd like to see happen, but I think you're going about it the wrong way.

PS: I have no issues with using a WAG bag where required.

The Weasel
02-15-2008, 12:33
Mowgli, feel free to improve on my techniques. I don't mind at all, and am always grateful to others who do so.

TW

Alligator
02-15-2008, 12:47
I'm glad I looked that up I thought the CDC meant Center for Dickhead Counselors:rolleyes:.

From the 1998-2002 Report.


Interpretation: The increase observed for 2002 might reflect increased reporting after reporting of giardiasis as a nationally notifiable disease began in 2002. Transmission of giardiasis occurs throughout the United States, with increased diagnosis or reporting occurring in northern states. However, state incidence figures should be compared with caution because individual state surveillance systems have varying capabilities to detect cases. The seasonal peak in age-specific case reports coincides with the summer recreational water season and might reflect increased use of communal swimming venues (e.g., lakes, rivers, swimming pools, and water parks) by young children.
Communal swimming venues, not animals eating dung.

Results


During the 1998--2002 reporting period, the total number of reported cases of giardiasis decreased 18.6% from 24,226 for 1998 to 19,708 for 2001 and then increased 8.1% to 21,300 for 2002 (Table 1 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5401a2.htm#tab1)). Cases reported to be outbreak related made up 1.6%--11.6% of the total number of cases reported annually for 1999--2002. Although the number of states reporting cases increased from 42 to 46 during the reporting period, the number of states reporting >15 cases per 100,000 population decreased from 10 in 1998 to five in 2002.
A decrease then an increase. Also a reduction in states with high numbers of cases per state. Inconclusive as to an explosion.

In the discussion.


Giardiasis is geographically widespread in the United States. These data and data from the previous national giardiasis surveillance summary (1992--1997) indicate that the diagnosis or transmission of giardiasis might be higher in northern states (24 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss4907a1.htm)). However, because differences in giardiasis surveillance systems among states can affect the capability to detect cases, whether this finding is of true biologic significance or is only the result of differences in case detection or reporting is difficult to determine.
In other words, the CDC is still unsure whether what they are seeing is an actual increase or the result of better reporting.

Further, your original claim was

First, TP, even if buried 12-18" deep - which usually it isn't, even when the soil permits it, which usually it won't due to rocks and roots - catholes are dug up by varmints (skunks, 'coons, 'possums, mice and others) to eat the feces, which contains a very high amount of food value. That's what gets the paper up more of time than anything else. It's not preventable.

Second, TP doesn't biodegrade as fast as people think. Minimum is usually 2 years, even in very wet soil, and up to 10 years or more in normal soil. In dry environments it can last for decades.

Neither of these are opinion; they're well recognized facts, and it's more than unsightly: There's a lot of scientific research indicating that the explosion in giardia across North America is due to human waste in the cycle, because of #1 above, i.e. human waste creates runoff or is eaten by animals, who become infected, and then their waste contaminates water sources too, then back to humans and so on.The CDC has not suggested that your #1 reason is the cause of any perceived increase.

Try again.

The Weasel
02-15-2008, 13:20
Alligator, see the new thread in Health/Hygiene. I agree with Joe that it's better to continue the discussion there.

TW

Bob S
02-18-2008, 13:54
Every animal on this planet has a fear of fire & smoke, what does a fire ring smell like? It smells like fire & smoke. I don’t think burning some paper is an issue like some are making it out to be.


I would like to take this statement back.:(

I would have never said or thought animals would want to be around a fire at all. But last night I was watching a PBS Nature program “Artic Bears” it showed a trash dump in Alaska that Polar bears were digging through. The people of the town set the trash on fire to keep the bears out. But the video footage showed the bears grabbing things right out of the fire and dragging the trash bags away a few feet and then digging through them. The bear were leery of the fire, but it didn’t stop them from going after food.

I always thought all animals had this terrible fear of fire? In fact I remember being told this years ago in school.

ki0eh
02-18-2008, 14:46
I always thought all animals had this terrible fear of fire? In fact I remember being told this years ago in school.

My father-in-law had a pony that would lick the salts from old electronics and stuff while his trash file was still smoldering. :eek:

No Belay
02-21-2008, 22:19
I must be the only person who's never, ever had a problem with mice. I must smell like a cat.

I'm not going to touch that one. Dixi has already deleted me to many times this week.:p