Do you pack out your feces?

[hobojoe]

Well, what doodoo do you doo?

[hobojoe]

I can't beleive anyone chose #1 I hope you're joking.

[jersey joe]

Where is the option for rolling over a big honkin rock and then rolling it back over when you're done?

[hobojoe]

Where is the option for rolling over a big honkin rock and then rolling it back over when you're done?
Thats part of 6-8" (the rock should be that big)

[Tipi Walter]

Yes, I pack out not only my beloved feces but my urine, too. At the start of a typical 10 day backpacking trip my pack will weigh about 65 pounds, at the end with it loaded down with feces and urine, it actually will weight around 90 pounds. Someone might ask, "Why in god's name would you haul around your own wastes?", but if they have to ask the question then I feel sorry for them. They just haven't got the memo yet on the skills needed for real backpacking. There're newbs.

[hobojoe]

Yes, I pack out not only my beloved feces but my urine, too. At the start of a typical 10 day backpacking trip my pack will weigh about 65 pounds, at the end with it loaded down with feces and urine, it actually will weight around 90 pounds........
By my calculations thats about 260 lbs for us HEAVY drinkers.

[ki0eh]

Yes, I pack out not only my beloved feces but my urine, too. At the start of a typical 10 day backpacking trip my pack will weigh about 65 pounds, at the end with it loaded down with feces and urine, it actually will weight around 90 pounds. Someone might ask, "Why in god's name would you haul around your own wastes?", but if they have to ask the question then I feel sorry for them. They just haven't got the memo yet on the skills needed for real backpacking. There're newbs.

Now that gives a whole new meaning to being FOS. :D

[The Weasel]

Yes, I pack out not only my beloved feces but my urine, too. At the start of a typical 10 day backpacking trip my pack will weigh about 65 pounds, at the end with it loaded down with feces and urine, it actually will weight around 90 pounds. Someone might ask, "Why in god's name would you haul around your own wastes?", but if they have to ask the question then I feel sorry for them. They just haven't got the memo yet on the skills needed for real backpacking. There're newbs.

Tipi, even if you are, as Wolf so elegantly puts it, "FOS", you pack in the same body weight + packed items, including food/water as your body weight and packed out items - including all of your own waste - unless you're bloating yourself with about another 3 gallons of water.

So you must be hauling waste from other people, which means you need to stop loaning your pack to everyone at the shelter when they need to 'drop a load'.

TW

[The Weasel]

Copied from the Shelter Etiquette thread:

While some won't be satisfied no matter what is said on the topic of solid waste in the outback, I'll add a couple more items. All are CDC materials, and if you don't know what the CDC is, you should look that up.

The first - "Giardiasis Surveillance- United States 1998-2002" agrees with me that there are a large, and growing, number of cases of giardiasis nationally. While some will argue with my use of the term "explosion" in growth, I'm characterizing that in my historic terms - from the 50s to the present - and if you want to quibble with that, fine. But giardiasis is reported in 46 states, northern more than southern, and is a serious GI problem (no, I'm not talking about soldiers).

The second - "Giardiasis Surveillance - United States 1992-1997" - makes it pretty clear that there is an "explosion" (although that term isn't used), with reported cases doubling in that period from 12,700 to over 27,000 annually. (The first report notes that in 2002 they are about 20,000, which represents a 50% increase over 1992.)

In terms of the "explosion", however, one of the conclusions of the authors of the 1998-2002 report is really significant: Actual cases are probably in the range from over 400,000 to 2,100,000 annually (they conclude that the actual number probably falls in between this estimates). An appropriate assumption from this is that actual cases fall in the average of this range, or about 1,250,000 annually. Assuming (again) that each case would happen to a different person, that means that about 1 in 20 Americans will suffer from it each year.

It's not just a "wilderness" disease, I know. But one of the key points in public health (a lawyer? how does he know such things? Well, leave aside that I've been fascinated by it since I earned Public Health Merit Badge back in 1959, my wife's son just changed from Ph.D. candidate to Ph.D. yesterday, in public health, so I kind of have a resident expert around) is that in home environments there are specific things that need to be done to prevent it which are commonly followed by most people, such as chlorination of swimming pools and sanitary plumbing systems. In the wilderness, though, there isn't much being done, and there is a tremendous septic solid waste load being deposited along trails, near campsites, and close to water sources. Do the 'thought experiment' yourself: If there are 1,500 thruhikers starting from Springer in February and March, and another 500 'sectioners' starting at Springer and going 50 miles up the line, all averaging 10 miles a day, those 50 miles of Georgia are going to have 10,000 pounds of human waste - 5 tons - in close proximity to the Trail, much of it clustered by shelters and the rest rarely more than 100 feet (yes, I know the 'rule' and yes, I know that few follow it consistently) from the pathway. Think of it another way: That's about the same amount of human solid waste as, say, Hot Springs, NC produces in 3 or 4 days.

If someone here started suggesting that it would be OK to bury 5 tons of litter, trash, tuna cans and more along the AT, and dig garbage dumps by every shelter, we'd all go nuts. Instead, we all (mostly) agree that if we "pack it in, pack it out". Human waste isn't any different.

By the way, it's very easy, sanitary, and safe to pack it out, done properly. Which takes less time than digging a cathole, too.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5401a2.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss4907a1.htm

The Weasel

[Gray Blazer]

I was going to suggest starting a new service on the AT, butt somebody beat me to it.

I find it ironical that I would view the title of this thread and then the very next thread title I see is What's your First Snack When Hitting Town?

[Tipi Walter]

BTW, I use the "reverse platypus" system with one flow going in and one flow going out. A simple, lightweight 'urinethane'-coated tube-catheter runs from my penile-crotch-unit to a storage bag located in my backpack. Automatic pee storage occurs at a constant drip-rate and works well when backpacking. After some adjustment to the head-to-shaft ventilators, it can be tweaked for near universal use. Ultralight and highly recommended.

And to The Weasel: You've forgotton the water I get from springs and creeks while out hiking.

[max patch]

For you shelter dwellers; pack in a weeks supply of crap in your bag and you'll have the shelter to yourself in short order.

[hobojoe]

I forgot to add diapers as an option, if you use cotton you can just wash em out in the water source.

[tazie]

Why all the fuss? Why don't you just wear Depends and poop in your pants? I've never understood why guys like bathroom humor...:confused:

[gold bond]

So basically what you are saying here is we are all full of crap!

[The Weasel]

It's pretty easy. It only adds a small amount of weight to my pack.

(1) Supplies:

2-1 gal ziploc bags for every 3-4 days I'll be hiking.
1.5 paper lunch bags for every day I'll be hiking.
4 oz +/- of odor-eliminating cat litter (clay-based seems to work best)
1-1 gal ziploc bag to carry unused supplies
Toilet trowel
TP
Zippered sil-fabric bag (optional)

(2) Use

After voiding, use trowel to scoop waste and paper into one sandwich bag. Put small handful (about 4 oz) of cat litter in sandwich bag to serve as drying agent. Roll bag up enough to fit in one large ziploc. Use second large ziploc as 'insurance' bag (i.e. double-bagging). Extra insurance and 'invisibility' can be obtained by placing everything in the sil-bag (a/k/a "the honey sack"). Waste will dry and be odor free in a few hours' time.

Dispose of contents in toilets or solid waste disposal points (at some campgrounds or other locations) ONLY by opening paper bags and dumping. Those who own cats will understand the process better. (Note: unlike litter boxes, there will be no urine odor.)

That's it.


TW

[hobojoe]

Why all the fuss? Why don't you just wear Depends and poop in your pants? I've never understood why guys like bathroom humor...:confused:
This is no laughing matter.....It's a Fecal matter.

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi, even if you are, as Wolf so elegantly puts it, "FOS", you pack in the same body weight + packed items, including food/water as your body weight and packed out items - including all of your own waste - unless you're bloating yourself with about another 3 gallons of water.

So you must be hauling waste from other people, which means you need to stop loaning your pack to everyone at the shelter when they need to 'drop a load'.

TW

The only time I haul other people's waste is during emergency evacuations.

On the other hand, when I thru-hiked the AT several years ago, my backpacking buddy Johnny B sneaked a bag of his own feces into my pack and I unknowingly carried it all the way to Maine.

[hobojoe]

Extra insurance and 'invisibility' can be obtained by placing everything in the sil-bag (a/k/a "the honey sack"). Waste will dry and be odor free in a few hours' time.

Couldn't you save weight by combining the honey sack with your food bad. Don't buy cheap ziplocks.

[double d]

Dude, just dig a cathole away from the AT and water sources. Let it go at that!!!!

[Tipi Walter]

Couldn't you save weight by combining the honey sack with your food bad. Don't buy cheap ziplocks.

I've found that I have to hang my poop bag EVEN HIGHER than my food bags cuz the bears really seem to go for the poop first. They will use every ingenious method at their disposal to reach the poop bag. I would never, ever keep the poop bag with me in the tent. Just too dangerous.

[hobojoe]

I've found that I have to hang my poop bag EVEN HIGHER than my food bags cuz the bears really seem to go for the poop first. They will use every ingenious method at their disposal to reach the poop bag. I would never, ever keep the poop bag with me in the tent. Just too dangerous.
Wow.......what have you been eating???

[The Weasel]

Joe, while yeah, there is a somewhat humorous aspect to some of this, you (and most of the rest above sound no different than my early-teenage Scouts do when we discuss preparing for a long-distance hike with current backpacking techniques. Everyone giggles and smirks with sort of typical boy/male bathroom humor, until we start doing some serious thinking about it. Then they start to see that the same reasons why sanitary plumbing systems in homes are a good idea are a good idea in backcountry, and why the same reasons for waste treatment plants, rather than just letting waste run off into the environment, also apply in the backcountry.

Don't fool yourself: Wilderness managers, particularly those involving public lands such as national/state parks, are increasingly insisting on users - that's us - doing such things as waste packouts. Rock climbers know (and aren't always happy, but understand) this; major rock walls (e.g. Half Dome/Yosemite) that involve long climbs now require climbers to carry disposal packs since the days of "mud falcons" (which often hit climbers below) because of causing serious contamination at the foot of walls. The same is true in the Grand Canyon, and other parks/wild areas are increasingly calling for at least voluntary use of packout procedures. Just as with bear cannisters, the day may not be far off when many areas require such things.

So giggle a little, and make some fun of it. But when you think about the impact, it's a pretty serious problem

TW

[max patch]

(1) Supplies:

2-1 gal ziploc bags for every 3-4 days I'll be hiking.
1.5 paper lunch bags for every day I'll be hiking.
4 oz +/- of odor-eliminating cat litter (clay-based seems to work best)
1-1 gal ziploc bag to carry unused supplies
Toilet trowel
TP
Zippered sil-fabric bag (optional)



To get serious for a moment; as many hikers are becoming more and more "ounce weenies" I don't see this happening. Even if it is a good idea. Can't see the same hiker who cuts the margins off his maps adding cat litter to his pack.

[hobojoe]

So giggle a little, and make some fun of it. But when you think about the impact, it's a pretty serious problem

TW
I whole heartedly agree. I practice leave no trace as best I know in all aspects of life. If the rules on the AT required this I would not hesitate to do it. I am not above hauling my own waste, I am realy upset at the people who don't even bury(weather or not they are joking I can't say). I hope not because I posted this thread with earnest intentions, to let people know how we all feel. The AT is a beautiful place I can't stand the disrespect it gets.

[hobojoe]

To get serious for a moment; as many hikers are becoming more and more "ounce weenies" I don't see this happening. Even if it is a good idea. Can't see the same hiker who cuts the margins off his maps adding cat litter to his pack.
This is serious..... In places where it is required people do this all the time. I hate the ounce weenies (not real hate) for being too self absorbed. They don't carry a tent to be light, but in an emergency they beg to crawl in yours. Respect for the trail is my #1 priority while hiking, my own comfort is second ALWAYS.

[The Weasel]

The entire weight of my 'kit' before I leave is about 8 oz, for a week. As for having less and less weight, well, packing out my waste is no different to me than packing out my garbage. "Ounce weenies" who think it's acceptable to bury their food packaging or cans along the trail would be hooted down here; there's no difference with human waste except that human waste is probably more dangerous to bury.

TW

[The Weasel]

I whole heartedly agree. I practice leave no trace as best I know in all aspects of life. If the rules on the AT required this I would not hesitate to do it. I am not above hauling my own waste,***

Joe, I mean this in a friendly way, but why not do it because it's the right thing to do, just as you haul out your garbage? There is no rule on the AT that you do that, either. But I'm sure you do. Why not try this for a weekender and see that it's not a hard or nasty thing to do?

TW

[Tipi Walter]

Wow.......what have you been eating???

After years of giardia and other backpacking ailments, the food I eat comes out looking identical to what went in. This can be a real problem when choosing what to eat and sometimes the two gets mixed up. The bears have a real problem with it.

And to get serious, TW, burying our stool is not a problem or much of a consideration from Georgia to Maine. We just dig a good hole and forget it. For rock climbers, yeah, and for the Wheeled Tourists who want to reach every last acre of open land, yeah, they'll drop their turds anywhere they feel like it. These rolling couch potatoes need a strong primer on fecal control, but they don't go far from their cars and sometimes even use the outhouses provided.

The only time I see turds by toilet paper in the backcountry is around roads and pulloffs. Occasionally after a fierce winter blizzard I'll find a stool pile with paper out in the wilderness, but that's due more to an emergency turd-venting than anything else.

If you want to get serious about it, show me the effects of burying feces in the ground and how it taints ground water. I'd say a cathole in the woods is just fine. Hey, most houses have septic systems with years of turd and paper build up. What does that do to the ground water?

[Tipi Walter]

The entire weight of my 'kit' before I leave is about 8 oz, for a week. As for having less and less weight, well, packing out my waste is no different to me than packing out my garbage. "Ounce weenies" who think it's acceptable to bury their food packaging or cans along the trail would be hooted down here; there's no difference with human waste except that human waste is probably more dangerous to bury.

TW

So, be honest: Do you haul out your urine, too?

[Alligator]

Copied over for The Weasel's benefit.

I'm glad I looked that up I thought the CDC meant Center for Dickhead Counselors:rolleyes:.

From the 1998-2002 Report.


Interpretation: The increase observed for 2002 might reflect increased reporting after reporting of giardiasis as a nationally notifiable disease began in 2002. Transmission of giardiasis occurs throughout the United States, with increased diagnosis or reporting occurring in northern states. However, state incidence figures should be compared with caution because individual state surveillance systems have varying capabilities to detect cases. The seasonal peak in age-specific case reports coincides with the summer recreational water season and might reflect increased use of communal swimming venues (e.g., lakes, rivers, swimming pools, and water parks) by young children.
Communal swimming venues, not animals eating dung.

Results



During the 1998--2002 reporting period, the total number of reported cases of giardiasis decreased 18.6% from 24,226 for 1998 to 19,708 for 2001 and then increased 8.1% to 21,300 for 2002 (Table 1 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5401a2.htm#tab1)). Cases reported to be outbreak related made up 1.6%--11.6% of the total number of cases reported annually for 1999--2002. Although the number of states reporting cases increased from 42 to 46 during the reporting period, the number of states reporting >15 cases per 100,000 population decreased from 10 in 1998 to five in 2002.
A decrease then an increase. Also a reduction in states with high numbers of cases per state. Inconclusive as to an explosion.

In the discussion.

Giardiasis is geographically widespread in the United States. These data and data from the previous national giardiasis surveillance summary (1992--1997) indicate that the diagnosis or transmission of giardiasis might be higher in northern states (24 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss4907a1.htm)). However, because differences in giardiasis surveillance systems among states can affect the capability to detect cases, whether this finding is of true biologic significance or is only the result of differences in case detection or reporting is difficult to determine.
In other words, the CDC is still unsure whether what they are seeing is an actual increase or the result of better reporting.

Further, your original claim was

First, TP, even if buried 12-18" deep - which usually it isn't, even when the soil permits it, which usually it won't due to rocks and roots - catholes are dug up by varmints (skunks, 'coons, 'possums, mice and others) to eat the feces, which contains a very high amount of food value. That's what gets the paper up more of time than anything else. It's not preventable.
Second, TP doesn't biodegrade as fast as people think. Minimum is usually 2 years, even in very wet soil, and up to 10 years or more in normal soil. In dry environments it can last for decades.

Neither of these are opinion; they're well recognized facts, and it's more than unsightly: There's a lot of scientific research indicating that the explosion in giardia across North America is due to human waste in the cycle, because of #1 above, i.e. human waste creates runoff or is eaten by animals, who become infected, and then their waste contaminates water sources too, then back to humans and so on.
The CDC has not suggested that your #1 reason is the cause of any perceived increase.

Try again.

[The Weasel]

Tipi:

I have vivid memories, particularly in GSMNP, of the "toilet area" with vast amounts of TP and waste visible, in April '00 when I tried my thru. I've seen them in other places often, too, along the AT (at least one in the stretch north of Hanover, NH), the Bruce, and other short and long trails, and a few places in the first 100 miles of the PCT that I've visited.

As for septic tanks, properly sited ones are beneath the runoff-zone, and "tile fields" are increasingly frowned on that are within runoff zones. Most septic tanks/fields now have to meet very strict building codes to be installed/renovated, for precisely these reasons.

TW

[Wolf - 23000]

I know environmentist say it is better for the environment but here a news flash for them; animals take a dump in the woods too. They have been doing so for a very LONG time too. Where it becomes a real problem is when to many people all go in the same general area – hikers read a book tell them of a beautiful place to set up camp, so everyone and their brother wants to camp there.

If people stop reading about everyone else experiences and did their own it would make life a lot easier for everyone.

Wolf

[Alligator]

Wolf, I'm an environmentalist. I haven't seen enough data for the AT to make a recommendation on packing out TP nor feces. I'm not making that recommendation at this time. When these types of controversial recommendations are made without supporting data, it tends to backfire. It's best to have some hard facts available beforehand.

It also helps to have alternative solutions. I don't know the situation now, but I never understood why there were no privies in some places such as the Smokies.

[Footslogger]

It also helps to have alternative solutions. I don't know the situation now, but I never understood why there were no privies in some places such as the Smokies.

===================================

I know this is serious ...but I just got this vision of "dumping stations" like they have for RV parks.

'Slogger

[sheepdog]

Perhaps with the proper diet (cheese?) one could be bound up and only go once every four days on a town visit. I can see how the new trail books could change. People doing big miles to reach town to unload, not eat.:-?

[The Weasel]

While catholes are allowed in most areas (usually because wilderness managers know it is a hard sell, so catholes are better than nothing), here are some resources about "packout" usage:

Bureau of Land Management/Grand Escalante: http://www.ut.blm.gov/monument/recreation-human-waste.php

Washington (state) high country: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/getaways/052898/trac28.html

LNT site generally, with info on both catholes and packout: http://www.leavenotracedude.com/waste-disposal.shtml

If you're further interested in who recommends/requires packout of human waste, google "pack out human waste" (use the term in quotes) and you'll find a number of other resources.

TW

[Almost There]

I ain't never gonna pack out my krap...You wanna limit impact, get away from shelters without privies before going. There's nothing that says you have to go in the TP Minefield.

[The Weasel]

Gator:

I'm not blowing you off (or at least don't mean to), but there comes a time when demands for "do all the research and present it here" from some people simply sounds like an attempt to force an idea out of existence by arguing it to death. You may not be doing that, and if that's the case, sorry. Given that 40% of America says that it doesn't believe in evolution, and a majority feels that the Bible is 100% true, some of us feel that no matter how much 'science' is pointed out, people will only believe what they want to. Again, if you're not like that, I'm sorry.

But this is a pretty intuitive thing, and by that I mean that 'thought experiments' -which are a legitimate scientific technique - demonstrate that packout, even for a moist area such as (most of) the AT makes sense (and is imperative for those areas above treeline, esp in the NE). That's why I use the "10 tons from Springer" example (which, by the way, is 10 tons annually). And decomposition, even in the best of locations in moist times (and there is, of course, a serious drought along much of the AT) isn't a "quickie" thing: Decomp of feces generally takes anywhere from 6 months (if heavy rains are frequent) to 2 years or more.

Sure, bears defecate in the woods, and so do all the other animals. They do it in our yards and parks, too, and if you don't think that's a problem, talk to a public health professional about the problems of Canada geese. But human waste in the outback isn't part of the ecological balance, and isn't as widely dispersed (animals don't stay within 100 feet of the trail, obviously...but we do).

So argue a bit about whether I've done the finest research here or not; I just don't have the time to do it all, but it's out there for people to find, both online and by talking to senior wilderness managers. But if you think about it (and I know you will) you'll start to see that the problem is real, and that it's also solvable without a lot of effort.

TW

[MOWGLI]

Perhaps with the proper diet (cheese?) one could be bound up and only go once every four days on a town visit. I can see how the new trail books could change. People doing big miles to reach town to unload, not eat.:-?

If I limited all my trips to 2.5 days, I'd never have to dig another cathole! :o

[Newb]

I sometimes hunt down other peoples catholes and pack out their feces as well. My trail name is scatboy.

[mystic]

Perhaps with the proper diet (cheese?) one could be bound up and only go once every four days on a town visit. I can see how the new trail books could change. People doing big miles to reach town to unload, not eat.:-?

Naw that would mean carrying extra weight. The better way is not to eat 3 days prior to going hiking and not eating while hiking. You don't have to carry any new or 'used' food. That is the true UL hiker way.

[Shea Groebner]

If you bury your poop 16" to 18" and compact the soil, the poop will degrade in a very short time. As long as you are not near water sources it should be fine. I had a geologist tell me one time that all you need is approximately 8 foot of soil to filter ground water.

As for the sewage systems, the reason they are used is because of the concentration of people and the potential for disease outbreaks. Sewage systems release back into our waterways so it is going back into the natural system anyway. The worst thing are the chemicals used from the treatment plants that are causing some microbes to become resistant to treatment so stronger chemicals are needed.

So I believe that if you bury waste only not TP the groundwater will be ok. Just make sure you compact the soil on top. Or like someone said earlier roll a large rock on top of the hole.

Also, please don't leave it on top of the ground, it just make the whole experience of hiking nasty.

[tyler0928]

You people are nuts...just **** in the woods

[hobojoe]

You people are nuts...just **** in the woods
You will understand when you hike.....hopefully.

[max patch]

[COLOR=black]If you bury your poop 16" to 18" and compact the soil, the poop will degrade in a very short time.

Are you serious? NOBODY digs a foot and a half cathole.

[tyler0928]

Every time i do i just go in the woods. Thats how nature works

[The Weasel]

Tyler, I'm sorry. You're not part of 'nature' when you're in the woods. You're an intruder, and you need to take out what you take in. Do you bury your tin cans and food packaging? When I was a kid - the 50s - that was an accepable tactic. Now it's not. Times change.

TW

[Appalachian Tater]

I dig a cathole, bury my toilet paper, and then **** on top of it so the animals don't dig up the toilet paper to eat the ****.

[Alligator]

I don't see it as a problem everywhere. I've thought about it a bit. I have not seen any research that suggests that disease is significantly increased through backcountry catholing in general here on the East Coast. Where there are problem spots, I'll take the recommendations under consideration.

Your thought experiment is flawed. It does not take into account the amount of unutilized area selected by a hiker. A hiker uses about an 8" diameter hole (maybe less). That's 50 square inches and about 1/3 of a square foot. 2000 hikers are using about 700 square feet. That's a little over a square of 25 ft/side. Call that per day. How many acres of land are out there? A lot of the feces end up in privies too. The feces are going to decompose in 6 mos. to 2 years approximately, under the ground. It's not a big deal to me. Humans are part of the system. We urinate and defecate too. Lotta extra nitrogen in there too;).

[Tipi Walter]

Perhaps with the proper diet (cheese?) one could be bound up and only go once every four days on a town visit. I can see how the new trail books could change. People doing big miles to reach town to unload, not eat.:-?


I sometimes hunt down other peoples catholes and pack out their feces as well. My trail name is scatboy.

Wow, I guess I'm not the only one who wants to carry out other people's turds. I've tried to do my part and maybe I am a nuisance around trailheads but over the years I've cajoled and sometimes begged hikers and backpackers to let me carry out their stool. Mostly gladly comply but some old holdouts get testy and combative.

Hey scatboy, you should try and see if you quality with the ATC for that Ten Tons From Springer patch, it sounds like you're close to getting it.

And sheepdog, your idea is old-hat. Horace Kephart came out with a polished oak fecal-plug over 70 years ago. Back in those days men were men and could hold their colons shut for up to 12 days(using a Kephart plug), leaving more time for the woods and less for town trips.

Working with Smelty, Integral Defecations and Mountain Stool Retrieval(MSR), we came up with a very light lexan buttplug able to stand tremendous pressures and incorporating your standard pop-off valves and blow-back meters. This way, a backpacker can let his colon safely carry the extra weight and leave more room in the pack.

The Weasel, you say human waste in the outback is not part of the ecological balance, uh, I don't get it. Don't tell that to a Neanderthal from 50,000 years ago.

[The Cheat]

Why all the fuss? Why don't you just wear Depends and poop in your pants? I've never understood why guys like bathroom humor...:confused:

Hmmmm.

How big is a week's worth of Depends? Prior to use.

[Mags]

Generally speaking, the areas where you have to worry about "packing it out" are much less biologically diverse than the majority of the Appalachians (desert and alpine come to mind).

A cathole, far away from water, seems to work for fecal matter in the deep woods.


Alligator may have more information about this subject than I.

[Captain America]

I dig a cathole, bury my toilet paper, and then **** on top of it so the animals don't dig up the toilet paper to eat the ****.


I use the TP at the end...

[Appalachian Tater]

I use the TP at the end...Which end???

[gold bond]

There is a teory that if you go to a bar and filter the urinals the beer is still good....if we filter the fecies is the ramon still good?

[hobojoe]

There is a teory that if you go to a bar and filter the urinals the beer is still good....if we filter the fecies is the ramon still good?
Was it good in the first place??? I hear that is how they make ramen.

[Tipi Walter]

Sometimes I'll just take one look at my pot of food and put it all right into a dug cathole. Why bother with the processing?

[Footslogger]

There is a teory that if you go to a bar and filter the urinals the beer is still good....if we filter the fecies is the ramon still good?

==========================

I don't know about the ramen ...but the nice thing about beer is that it doesn't have to stop to change colors (at least the lighter beers, that is).

'Slogger

[gold bond]

Skip the middle man...thats what I always say! I don't know about yall but if you've ever had "Black Barts Chili" I have forgot the maker, I've seen what it has done to a hiker...I don't know if they make a container that can hold the after effects of that!

[hobojoe]

If you eat less preservatives, you will poop less, true? Eat slower and your body will do a better job of processing too.

[Alligator]

Continuing my thought experiment.

Assume all 2000 hikers start the same day. They'll average about 10 miles a day? That means they will utilize an area of 10,560,000 square feet, 10 miles of trail, 100 ft to a side as a "catbox". Of that 10,560,000 sq ft, 700 sq ft. will be catholes. That's if they don't use the privy. Then they move on and decomposition starts.

[Tipi Walter]

Continuing my thought experiment.

Assume all 2000 hikers start the same day. They'll average about 10 miles a day? That means they will utilize an area of 10,560,000 square feet, 10 miles of trail, 100 ft to a side as a "catbox". Of that 10,560,000 sq ft, 700 sq ft. will be catholes. That's if they don't use the privy. Then they move on and decomposition starts.

Amen, end of story. Pass the toilet paper.

[hobojoe]

Continuing my thought experiment.

Assume all 2000 hikers start the same day. They'll average about 10 miles a day? That means they will utilize an area of 10,560,000 square feet, 10 miles of trail, 100 ft to a side as a "catbox". Of that 10,560,000 sq ft, 700 sq ft. will be catholes. That's if they don't use the privy. Then they move on and decomposition starts.
and according to this poll 15% will just duke on the ground. *** mate?

[Tipi Walter]

and according to this poll 15% will just duke on the ground. *** mate?

Those 15% got confused and thought this was a Dollywood/Gatlinburg website.

[River Runner]

I try to use latrines when available, cathole when they aren't.

It's ridiculous to think that it's worse for my waste to be buried out in the wilderness where it can decompose and add nutrients to the soil than for it to go into a septic tank & perculate out into the soil. Then, what happens to the solids that have to be eventually pumped out of the septic?

If it is going in a public system - that's even worse. It's churned through some chemicals & released into a stream.

And if I pack it out, where do I dispose of it? In the trash, where it goes to a dump & sits in a plastic bag forever? What happens one of these days when we run out of landfill space?

When I hiked from Springer to Unicoi Gap in mid-April 2006, I saw very little sign of improperly disposed of waste. The heavy use of that area is probably why they have latrines & it seems like it is working well to me.

For those using a rock to cover it, that is not the best method for breaking it down, as it does not allow as much moisture that is important for the process, so consider digging a cathole instead.

[sheepdog]

And sheepdog, your idea is old-hat. Horace Kephart came out with a polished oak fecal-plug over 70 years ago. Back in those days men were men and could hold their colons shut for up to 12 days(using a Kephart plug), leaving more time for the woods and less for town trips.


TW if my idea is so old hat , Why don't I remember reading in any of my trail books authors saying, "As I stride out of town with a heavy pack and a lighter colon, I am ready for the trail"????:cool:

[hobojoe]

Right, only use a rock when no one is watching you, HAHAHA

[saimyoji]

Sometimes I'll just take one look at my pot of food and put it all right into a dug cathole. Why bother with the processing?

too funny. youre in rare form today tipi


If you eat less preservatives, you will poop less, true? Eat slower and your body will do a better job of processing too.

well, maybe if by slower you mean over a longer period throughout the day. but if you mean taking one hour instead of 30 min....probably not gonna matter.

what i've been been reduced to with my bad aim: find an out of the way place with lots of leaf litter, a ways off the trail, clear a spot, drop my turd and wipe, then dig a hole that will accommodate it, push it in with the TP, drop the TP on top, fill in the hole with a stick,cover with litter and cover with a big enough rock.

I've just had too many experiences with a protruding turtle and tummy pains waiting while I dug the hole only to miss.

[Wolf - 23000]

Wolf, I'm an environmentalist. I haven't seen enough data for the AT to make a recommendation on packing out TP nor feces. I'm not making that recommendation at this time. When these types of controversial recommendations are made without supporting data, it tends to backfire. It's best to have some hard facts available beforehand.

It also helps to have alternative solutions. I don't know the situation now, but I never understood why there were no privies in some places such as the Smokies.

Alligator,

I agree with you but I have seen several Park Ranger or some environmental groups that have made their case hikers need to pack out their own feces. Around Mount Whitney, CA for example, hikers are require to pack out their own feces.

http://www.gadling.com/2007/08/26/pack-it-out-all-out-on-mt-whitney/


As you said it would help to have an alternative. One of the problem with privies is who is going to build them and clean them on a daily bases. On the AT it is not as hard compare to some places out west. Some hikers also have a habit of not using them properly -using them as a trash can or making a "mess" by not using the privy properly.

Wolf

[Mags]

Around Mount Whitney, CA for example, hikers are require to pack out their own feces.




Which is an alpine area.

Much more sensitive to impact that most of the southern Appalachians I would think.

Man...this thread is a sh** storm. :)

[Heater]

Then, what happens to the solids that have to be eventually pumped out of the septic?

If it is going in a public system - that's even worse. It's churned through some chemicals & released into a stream.

We mix it with yard trimmings and sell it back to the Yuppies.

Dillo Dirt. (http://www.cityofaustin.org/water/dillo.htm)

[The Weasel]

I don't see it as a problem everywhere. I've thought about it a bit. I have not seen any research that suggests that disease is significantly increased through backcountry catholing in general here on the East Coast. Where there are problem spots, I'll take the recommendations under consideration.

Your thought experiment is flawed. It does not take into account the amount of unutilized area selected by a hiker. A hiker uses about an 8" diameter hole (maybe less). That's 50 square inches and about 1/3 of a square foot. 2000 hikers are using about 700 square feet. That's a little over a square of 25 ft/side. Call that per day. How many acres of land are out there? A lot of the feces end up in privies too. The feces are going to decompose in 6 mos. to 2 years approximately, under the ground. It's not a big deal to me. Humans are part of the system. We urinate and defecate too. Lotta extra nitrogen in there too;).

Gator, I appreciate what you're saying. But to continue the discussion (this will be long; those who don't care should just ignore it):

(1) No, it's not a problem everywhere, and there is a spectrum. Bushwhacking Isle Royale miles from a trail (use this example as 'least used national park in the lower 48) means that catholes (in proper locations, which can be a problem there - rocky) are probably OK. The number of bushwhackers is small, and the catholes will be miles apart.

(2) On the other hand, high-use and highly concentrated usage areas do have problems. That means campsite areas and (along the AT) shelters without privies (which includes most campsites and many shelters) have extremely high concentrations of people, particularly during high usage times such as when thrus are starting. Some shelters will have 100+ people around them a night, and the waste overload becomes massive. This is particularly true in shelter areas where there is a designated "toilet area". These are dangerous areas, frankly, to even walk through to find a place to squat.

(3) Disease transmission is going to be relatively rare and often not capable of detemrination, since diagnosis may come days or weeks after infection, and may be caused by runoff from a higher elevation entering a water supply miles downstream. I might not worry too much about, say, Apple Orchard Shelter's water being badly infected from human waste. But I'd be very leery of lower-elevation water sources at GSMNP organized campgrounds. Since giardiais can result just from swimming in infected water, problems can go long distances and not clearly part of the oral/fecal cycle. (Yes, they are part of that cycle, but a kid in a creek who then kisses Mom may not be thought of as part of the classic "drinking contaminated water" problem.

(4) I think we agree that feces simply doesn't decompose in arid areas, including above the tree line and that packouts are needed then. (Or do we differ?). That's a bunch of miles of the AT up in New England, including Katahdin. I'll be a bit surprised if Baxter doesn't go mandatory about it in a few years.

(5) Feces doesn't decompose in privies. Period. It might drain somewhat, if it isn't in clay, but feces doesn't really decompose. Privies simply fill up over time and are then resited or pumped out. The solids and bacteria are going to remain in them unless bacteria killers are put in. Privies are, at best, a 'less worse' alternative to catholes or nothing.

(6) Feces doesn't dissolve in 6 months to 2 years. It may. That depends on how much rain there is, how much gets to ground level, and how recurrent it is. Had a lot of rain in your area lately?

(7) Again, while recognizing that catholing remains acceptable, here's the policy we teach in Scouting. It recognizes much of what I say above:


Human Waste

Proper disposal of human waste is important to avoid pollution of water sources, avoid the negative implications of someone else finding it, minimize the possibility of spreading disease, and maximize the rate of decomposition.
If an outhouse or bathroom is available, use it. In most backcountry locations, burying human feces in the correct manner is the most effective method to meet these criteria. Solid human waste must be packed out from some places, such as narrow river canyons. Land management agencies can advise you of specific rules for the area you plan to visit.
Contrary to popular opinion, research indicates that burial of feces in mineral soil actually slows decomposition. Pathogens have been discovered to survive for a year or more when buried. However, in light of the other problems associated with feces, it is still generally best to bury it in humus (decomposing plant or animal matter that forms organic soil). The slow decomposition rate emphasizes the need to choose the correct location, far from water, campsites, and other frequently used places.

Toilet Paper

Use toilet paper sparingly and use only plain, white, nonperfumed brands. Toilet paper must be disposed of properly! It should be either thoroughly buried in a cathole or placed in plastic bags and packed out, which is the best way to practice Leave No Trace. Never burn toilet paper because of the danger of starting a wildfire.

from http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/21-117/033_dispose.html

Reflect and comment as you wish, all.

[Tipi Walter]

TW if my idea is so old hat , Why don't I remember reading in any of my trail books authors saying, "As I stride out of town with a heavy pack and a lighter colon, I am ready for the trail"????:cool:

Backpackers like Kephart and Fletcher and Norman Clyde and the other oldtimers were a special breed not given to chitchat and banter. In fact, the longer they held their bowels, the quieter they became. The stoic expression you'd see in their photographs was due in large part to their dangerously distended colons. Most didn't even go to towns, ever.

[GGS2]

The only time I haul other people's waste is during emergency evacuations.

On the other hand, when I thru-hiked the AT several years ago, my backpacking buddy Johnny B sneaked a bag of his own feces into my pack and I unknowingly carried it all the way to Maine.

Your pack is so big you can lose a bag of **** in it for 2000 miles?

[Footslogger]

Backpackers like Kephart and Fletcher and Norman Clyde and the other oldtimers were a special breed not given to chitchat and banter. In fact, the longer they held their bowels, the quieter they became. The stoic expression you'd see in their photographs was due in large part to their dangerously distended colons. Most didn't even go to towns, ever.

==============================

So ...I guess you could say then that they had a "$hitty Disposition" ??

'Slogger

[hobojoe]

Never burn toilet paper because of the danger of starting a wildfire.


Especially while in contact with your a**

[Tipi Walter]

Your pack is so big you can lose a bag of **** in it for 2000 miles?

Hey, don't make me laugh. I'm still upset.

[GGS2]

===================================

I know this is serious ...but I just got this vision of "dumping stations" like they have for RV parks.

'Slogger

That's exactly what they have in places out west, as I understand. I've never actually "experienced" this.

[Tipi Walter]

===================================

I know this is serious ...but I just got this vision of "dumping stations" like they have for RV parks.

'Slogger

I have a friend who runs a "turd hostel" or stool retreat near Stecoah Gap and it's a dumping station for AT thru-hikers. The trail passes right thru the building and hikers can easily download their poop bags and urine sacs into the numerous porcelin basins which stretch for several hundred feet. I asked my friend about it and he said, "This is where white-blazing and brown-blazing meet up. You're walking both trails at the same time when you come here." I was impressed.

[Tin Man]

If you are packing your poo, consider where it is going and the impact. Moving waste may not be the solution it is cracked up to be. Moving stuff increases the carbon footprint and often produces more problems, not less. Consider what is happening in CT, a state that used to produce 50% of its electricity from nuclear plants and has had to resort to alternative source including burning garbage. Town dumps have filled and were subsequently closed or rather turned into transfer stations. Legally disposed of garbage is hauled away to incinerators where it is burned and releases toxic chemicals into the atmosphere. There are no easy answers and moving stuff around is not always the right answer.

The following is a one-sided presentation of problems in CT, but does point out some of the issues that need addressing...

http://www.environmental-justice.org/issues/legislation/hej_issues.html

[The Weasel]

Packed out human waste MUST go into toilets or waste dumping stations, not dumpsters.

TW

[GGS2]

If you bury your poop 16" to 18" ...

Shea, most of the rest of your post is not supported by any study I know of. Sounds like you're making future coprolites. "16" to 18" "? Man, that is a major excavation! You'll must pack a Pulaski for digging catholes.

I go for a much shallower hole (hard enough in the roots) and try to cover it with something, like a branch or a rock. The best information I have is that it should be in the active (humus) layer of the soil to degrade rapidly. This is one reason it is not advisable in deserts and alpine areas: not enough active soil. There's a whole discussion about what to do in such places, from under a rock to smearing it on a rock surface. But the consensus when in a high use area is pack it out to a safe disposal site.

By the way, the ecology and dynamic of a single cat hole is quite different from that of a compost heap or a pit privy. They tend not to compost. Rather like an orange peel on the surface. Give it a change, and it may dry up and remain for some time. One possibility for protecting a cathole from excavation, and speeding decomposition is to bury or scatter some wood ash in or over it.

One guy in "The Book" solved his problem on short hikes by simply not eating and not ****ting. Not an AT thru option, I would think, but it does work. You have to plan for one last dump before leaving facilities, or dig one cathole. It can even be the preferred option for heavy guys like me.

[Footslogger]

Well ...if this is where it's all headed I'm glad I never threw out my bright orange trowel. Now I will have to cut off the handle and drill some holes in it though to support my ultralight strategy.

'Slogger

[GGS2]

If you eat less preservatives, you will poop less, true? Eat slower and your body will do a better job of processing too.

Nah, if you et natural stuff, you poop a lot. All that good, wholesome fiber. The stool or scat is also fibrous and friable, so it can degrade rapidly.

[The Weasel]

Nah, if you et natural stuff, you poop a lot. All that good, wholesome fiber. The stool or scat is also fibrous and friable, so it can degrade rapidly.

Right, right, right, wrong.

TW

[Lone Wolf]

Well, what doodoo do you doo?

i fling my feces in and on shelters

[hobojoe]

i fling my feces in and on shelters
I always give it to day hikers "want some nutty fudge? It's fresh!"

[Alligator]

In response to The Weasel.
1. Right. I don't see many big problems on the AT either. Certainly very few areas where pack it out is needed.

2. All shelters ought to have privies, there shouldn't be toilet areas IMO. Those 100 people are a wave, not necessarily a huge amount on a yearly basis. It happens all the way up the trail, with attrition.

3. I haven't seen any studies to make me excessively worried about transmission from campers/hikers.

4. I wouldn't care if BSP did. I'd never crap up there on the Tableland anyway. If there is an actual determination of a problem say in the Whites, I'll look closely at their determination.

5. The privy spot is a loss. No biggie, the whole shelter area is when compared to the woods. Privies do not appear to be often moved though either. Some privies are composting. Can't say I've heard good things about them yet though.

6. I used your numbers. Now it's may:rolleyes:. (It depends but it's not long generally). I hiked last weekend through No. VA. All the springs were flowing. 2003 was a monsoon. It's variable, but the AT is not in a desert.

7. I'm not a scout and the BSA is not a land manager.

[wakapak]

i fling my feces in and on shelters

LMAO!!! That was a good one!!

[gold bond]

Well ...if this is where it's all headed I'm glad I never threw out my bright orange trowel. Now I will have to cut off the handle and drill some holes in it though to support my ultralight strategy.

'Slogger

Sea to Summit or whatever now has a trowel called the "IPOOD"...titanuim! Very light!! Folds up so small you could loose the dang thing.

[sheepdog]

Backpackers like Kephart and Fletcher and Norman Clyde and the other oldtimers were a special breed not given to chitchat and banter. In fact, the longer they held their bowels, the quieter they became. The stoic expression you'd see in their photographs was due in large part to their dangerously distended colons. Most didn't even go to towns, ever.
I have a set of replica plugs made by an amish craftsman for the above three gentleman. The originals were lost in a tragic trailer fire along with a priceless collection of Elvis on black velvet art. They are signed and numbered.

[Tin Man]

i fling my feces in and on shelters

And all along I thought the smell was from people who need depends, but were ultra-lighting.

[envirodiver]

(5) Feces doesn't decompose in privies. Period. It might drain somewhat, if it isn't in clay, but feces doesn't really decompose. Privies simply fill up over time and are then resited or pumped out. The solids and bacteria are going to remain in them unless bacteria killers are put in. Privies are, at best, a 'less worse' alternative to catholes or nothing.



TW you are wrong about the decomposition of feces. Composting privies do break the feces down and thereby decrease volume and kill bacteria (that is what composting does), utilizing both aerobic (primary) and anaerobic (secondary) bacteria. The purpose of the black plastic drainage pipe that goes down into the underside of the privy is to allow air to enter the material, The most effective mechanism is aerobic decomposition. The leaves that you put into the privey reduce the pH slightly, but the primary purpose is to keep the solids from compacting and keep separation to allow air to pass through.

It is true that the passive composting privys along the trail are not as effective as the fan aerated privys that are powered either by solar power or electricity. It is also likely that during times of heavy use such as thye rush of thrus it may not keep up, but it will catch up.

Composting privys are well studied and utilized in many locations.

The resulting compost is an excellent soil amendment.

[The Weasel]

In response to The Weasel.
1. Right. I don't see many big problems on the AT either. Certainly very few areas where pack it out is needed.

2. All shelters ought to have privies, there shouldn't be toilet areas IMO. Those 100 people are a wave, not necessarily a huge amount on a yearly basis. It happens all the way up the trail, with attrition.

3. I haven't seen any studies to make me excessively worried about transmission from campers/hikers.

4. I wouldn't care if BSP did. I'd never crap up there on the Tableland anyway. If there is an actual determination of a problem say in the Whites, I'll look closely at their determination.

5. The privy spot is a loss. No biggie, the whole shelter area is when compared to the woods. Privies do not appear to be often moved though either. Some privies are composting. Can't say I've heard good things about them yet though.

6. I used your numbers. Now it's may:rolleyes:. (It depends but it's not long generally). I hiked last weekend through No. VA. All the springs were flowing. 2003 was a monsoon. It's variable, but the AT is not in a desert.

7. I'm not a scout and the BSA is not a land manager.

Let's see how much more we can narrow disagreement and find some points we agree on:

1) I didn't say that there weren't places on the AT where packout isn't needed. In the southern section, I'd strongly suggest that GSMNP require it, or at least strongly encourage it. Even where they have privies, they are not always functional or adequate. The toilet fields exist, and have to stop.

2) See above about privies. The AT from Springer to Damascus, especially, gets extremely heavy hiking usage (GSMNP heaviest but the rest, too). 100 per day is a constant for several weeks, and the AT is probably the most heavily used trail (again, espcially from GA into VA) in the US. An emergency? No. But if we pack out banana peels, why aren't we packing out human waste. Or can we start to bury "compostable" garbage along the trail? Given that human waste is more dangerous than paper packaging, why is it "good" to pack out the latter and "unnecessary" to pack out the former?

3) Giardia doesn't carry a marker about its source. If it's in the water downstream, it came from upstream. But humans play a role in the cycle, and the more that's broken, the better. How many (avoidable) cases is too many?

4) Above treeline is just an absolute. If human waste doesn't decompose - and it generally won't, above treeline - it should be packed out, especially in high use trail areas like the Presidentials. This should be a nobrainer.

5) I think we are both dubious about privies, except that they are less worse than many alternatives.

6) The AT is wetter, generally, than Anza-Borrego, yes. But much of it isn't 'wet' and much of what is, isn't always. Don't assume that waste is going to decompose as fast as you think it is. If ever.

7) BSA has good experts both on staff and that it works with, throughout the outdoor field. If they say something about LNT, they've checked it out; with several million members, if they are wrong, they hear about it pretty fast. Give them credit for that.

So far, all of the discussion here that is agin' the idea generally sounds like what I heard before LNT became generally accepted: "It will degrade. We've always done this. There's not that much." I think that's changing.

TW

[The Weasel]

TW you are wrong about the decomposition of feces. Composting privies do break the feces down ***.

Env, I don't disagree about composting privies. But most of those on the trail, and most of those in backcountry areas on other trails, aren't composting privies. Very few are.

TW

[envirodiver]

TW more and more of the privys are the moldering privys which utilizes the composting process and have been studied along the trail.

My disagreement with you was that you made a blanket statement that "Feces doesn't decompose in privies. Period." You may want to go back and look at your original post. If it was an oversight on your part or you mispoke I apologize for bringing it up. But, I felt that it was important that the facts be correct.

Maybe another solution in lieu of hauling our feces around would be to install more of the moldering privies along the trail. It is a well studied and highly utilized technology.

[turtle fast]

Urine is normatively microbiologically sterile so elimination of urine into the environment shoulden't be a big problem as long as it is away from water sources. Though it does have a high amount of nitrogen and has trace salts which normally are not a problem for plant life.

Fecal matter though is an issue. Out west in the desert people have taken to "frosting rocks" with feces and as the air drys it....flakes off the rock. They pack out toilet paper. I have known folks in more temperate areas to bury their feces and burn the toilet paper.....

[The Weasel]

TW more and more of the privys are the moldering privys which utilizes the composting process and have been studied along the trail.

My disagreement with you was that you made a blanket statement that "Feces doesn't decompose in privies. Period." You may want to go back and look at your original post. If it was an oversight on your part or you mispoke I apologize for bringing it up. But, I felt that it was important that the facts be correct.

Youj're right that I didn't make the distinction, since they are still very rare, unfortunately, and with NPS budget hits, likely to remain that way for a long time. They're also hard to get into remote places and expensive to service. Great when they work.

TW

[Tin Man]

Youj're right that I didn't make the distinction, since they are still very rare, unfortunately, and with NPS budget hits, likely to remain that way for a long time. They're also hard to get into remote places and expensive to service. Great when they work.

TW

Excuse me Weasel, but when was the last time your were on the AT? I see more moldering privies than pit toilets on the AT where I have recently hiked in VT and NH. I cannot speak for other states.

[Dances with Mice]

I cannot speak for other states.Every shelter in GA (...except the Max Epp which has flush toilets nearby...) has a mouldering privy. Including Blood Mtn.

[Alligator]

Let's get this straight. I think there are a very small number of areas on the AT that would ever need to implement pack it out. Properly catholed feces will decompose. It's ok to leave some fertilizer in the forest for recycling.

I think it's a reasonable compromise to draw the line between trash and feces. No need to go overboard where it hasn't been proven necessary. If you have some proof that this is a significant problem here on the AT and not just your rhetoric, show us already. There are some localized situations that could be improved without drastic measures.

I avoid giardia (which I feel is very low risk anyway) by filtering or chemicals.

Last time I camped with Scouts, they were burning unwanted dinner in the fire ring and didn't have their permit:rolleyes:. There was more than ten scouts there, and I think 4-5 adults at least. Plus there's your sketchy claims:D. Spare me the scout talk about LNT please.

Much of the AT isn't wet? It generally gets over 30"+ of rain a year:-?. It's fairly well distributed as well.

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/about/cdrom/climatls1/info/prec.gif

[envirodiver]

Youj're right that I didn't make the distinction, since they are still very rare, unfortunately, and with NPS budget hits, likely to remain that way for a long time. They're also hard to get into remote places and expensive to service. Great when they work.

TW

Tin Man is correct more and more of the privies are the moldering privies. Many in the south are. I haven't been in GSMNP lately and don't know if they have installed privies there.

Regarding cost they are not expensive at all. The privy is used along with a section of black PVC drainage pipe. Bulking agents are used, most of which are leaves twigs and the like, some of those in the attached link use wood chips. I have attached a link to a study of some privies in the north that were installed by clubs, not NPS. Several of these are the more primative types while one is a much more advanced type that is not as applicable for remote locations.

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/5%20Case%20Studies.pdf

You may want to study some of these and reconsider your position regarding privies.

[leeki pole]

Should I bag all my dogs eliminations on MY back 40? Or be afraid to take a leak while I'm walking them? Good gosh, you guys need to get a life. This has been happening for thousands of years. It's the same on the Trail, be discreet and polite, just like in life. Most of the time, it's "smart" City folks who screw it up for the rest of us who know about country living.

[Alligator]

...
Regarding cost they are not expensive at all. The privy is used along with a section of black PVC drainage pipe. Bulking agents are used, most of which are leaves twigs and the like, some of those in the attached link use wood chips. I have attached a link to a study of some privies in the north that were installed by clubs, not NPS. Several of these are the more primative types while one is a much more advanced type that is not as applicable for remote locations.

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/5%20Case%20Studies.pdf

You may want to study some of these and reconsider your position regarding privies.Interesting article. I helped pre-assemble one of the two chamber types like 11.2 in the article. I don't think a separate urine system was involved. It didn't appear too expensive. I never saw it in operation though.

[hobojoe]

Should I bag all my dogs eliminations on MY back 40? Or be afraid to take a leak while I'm walking them? Good gosh, you guys need to get a life. This has been happening for thousands of years. It's the same on the Trail, be discreet and polite, just like in life. Most of the time, it's "smart" City folks who screw it up for the rest of us who know about country living.
City folks have acess to the internet and are capable of learning (believe it or not). Every one has the capability to "screw it up". And I already have a life.......poopin' on the trail.

[JF2CBR]

I not only pack my own feces out, but I also collect all the feces of all the creatures along the trail, because I'd hate to see what we'd be in for if we let all the animal waste on the forest floor.

Joking aside, if you put "it" in your pack, you're wack!

Ok, REALLY this time, joking aside, if you want to take your business with you, by all means, do it. But it's for sure something I can't see myself ever doing.

[Tipi Walter]

I not only pack my own feces out, but I also collect all the feces of all the creatures along the trail, because I'd hate to see what we'd be in for if we let all the animal waste on the forest floor.

Joking aside, if you put "it" in your pack, you're wack!

Ok, REALLY this time, joking aside, if you want to take your business with you, by all means, do it. But it's for sure something I can't see myself ever doing.

I try to catch every drop of my dog's urine and it's a real struggle but I know I'm doing my part to help the planet.

[leeki pole]

I try to catch every drop of my dog's urine and it's a real struggle but I know I'm doing my part to help the planet.
Now that's funny! Thanks, Tipi!:)

[River Runner]

Packed out human waste MUST go into toilets or waste dumping stations, not dumpsters.

TW

So how do you get it out of the paper bag & the cat litter in the method you described? What do you do with the contaminated paper and plastic bags & kitty litter? Seems to me like handling poo that has set for a week in a pack has its own risks.

[The Weasel]

Excuse me Weasel, but when was the last time your were on the AT? I see more moldering privies than pit toilets on the AT where I have recently hiked in VT and NH. I cannot speak for other states.

Tin, I have no doubt that you're right about VT/NH, but I believe there are relativelylew, outside of NPS lands, in the southern sections, and very, very few in midwestern and western states.

TW

[The Weasel]

So how do you get it out of the paper bag & the cat litter in the method you described? What do you do with the contaminated paper and plastic bags & kitty litter? Seems to me like handling poo that has set for a week in a pack has its own risks.

The waste will be fairly to totally dry; you open the top of the paper bag, hold the bottom over a toilet, and it all falls out (try not to splash; I hope I don't have to explain THAT!;)) The paper sack can be thrown in the trash. I'm assuming that your waste wasn't soupy; if that's the case, we'll give you a bye. The kitty litter that has clumped to the waste as well as any loose in the bag will go in the toilet and, while most places will not be wild about it, won't harm plumbing systems. The plastic bags, if you have a modicum of care, won't have gotten anything on them and can be trashed as well. Honest, folks. This is an easy thing to do. People with cats will understand pretty much all of it.

TW

[River Runner]

Let's see how much more we can narrow disagreement and find some points we agree on:

2) See above about privies. The AT from Springer to Damascus, especially, gets extremely heavy hiking usage (GSMNP heaviest but the rest, too). 100 per day is a constant for several weeks, and the AT is probably the most heavily used trail (again, espcially from GA into VA) in the US.


TW

Funny. Have any thru hikers actually seen 100 people staying in or around a shelter per day like the Weasel claims? There sure weren't nearly that many when I section hiked Georgia in April 2006, and my friend who hiked from Springer to Pearisburg VA or so starting March 1 2007 never saw that many.

[River Runner]

(7) Again, while recognizing that catholing remains acceptable, here's the policy we teach in Scouting. It recognizes much of what I say above:


Human Waste



Proper disposal of human waste is important to avoid pollution of water sources, avoid the negative implications of someone else finding it, minimize the possibility of spreading disease, and maximize the rate of decomposition.


If an outhouse or bathroom is available, use it. In most backcountry locations, burying human feces in the correct manner is the most effective method to meet these criteria. Solid human waste must be packed out from some places, such as narrow river canyons. Land management agencies can advise you of specific rules for the area you plan to visit.


Contrary to popular opinion, research indicates that burial of feces in mineral soil actually slows decomposition. Pathogens have been discovered to survive for a year or more when buried. However, in light of the other problems associated with feces, it is still generally best to bury it in humus (decomposing plant or animal matter that forms organic soil). The slow decomposition rate emphasizes the need to choose the correct location, far from water, campsites, and other frequently used places.




Reflect and comment as you wish, all.

I'm not sure why you think this applies to the southern AT where you think the problem is.

Last I checked it wasn't a narrow river corrider, and it is composed primarily of organic soil not mineral soil, so what's the point?

Yes there are areas it is necessary to pack out waste. The southern AT doesn't happen to be one of them, at least not in most places.

[The Weasel]

I think if you look back, I did it as a thought experiment, with some assumptions. But in terms of total hikers, I think my numbers are reasonably close.

But let's make it, say, one per day. How would you feel if I said, "It's cool for that those hikers to bury their banana peels, and noodle packages, since those will degrade over time."?

So haggle with my precision; I'm neither in court nor writing a peer reviewed article. Gosh, I'm sorry. But you know that if it's wrong to walk off the trail 200 feet and bury a bunch of trash, it's more wrong to do the same with human body waste.

TW

TW

[double d]

Jesus, people, fellow hikers and countrymen/women, just dig a cathole about 100 feet from the AT, make sure its not near a water source, and let it go at that. Its basic scouting 101.

[The Weasel]

Runner, I don't say it to be antagonistic, but I think I'd like to know how you feel about burying other waste. As I said above, why isn't it OK, then, to bury other waste that will degrade? Can I bury left over food? Banana peels? Paper? Bibles I don't like seeing in shelters? Why not?

Most of the reason, to be honest, is the same as the objections to purified (and I mean PURE) recycled wastewater: What the professionals call "the Ewww! Factor". But there's no "Eww" to this: It's easy, sanitary, and removes, frankly, more waste-by-weight than carrying out a tuna can and some paper wrapping. There are few disadvantages (other than for the lazy) and many advantages. So what is the objection that differentiates body waste from other trash? Or do you think LNT should be changed to permit burying everything we dispose of?

Thanks for thinking on this. I know it's new to a lot of people.

TW

[GGS2]

Well. A lot of heat, and a little light. I think it breaks down to rates. If the poop accumulates faster than it breaks down, then there is a problem. Bear do s**t in the woods, as do all the other critters, and we would be no different IF we lived as they do, and IF we were not the greatest load in the areas we frequent. But we have different pathogens because of our built ecology, and we do infect the rest of nature, and we do get it back again.

We are too many, and because of our load, we do things like make heavy use recreation areas. Yes, we make our backwoods and wilderness areas. They are artificial habitats now, managed through and through. If it comes down to packing our wastes out or not going, well, so be it.

A lot of this discussion has been cast as though the major problem was thrus and sectioners, but I suspect that is only the case in GA and maybe a few other places, for about a month or two each year. The rest of the time and elsewhere the major load is probably day trippers and tourons. They are going to be hard to convince of the need for packing it out, So, for those places only a few miles from a trailhead, which must be most of the AT, it might be most effective to place trailhead portapotties and keep them clean. For the true back country, the load is probably not too much to permit natural processes to take care of the problem. Where there are shelters and hot spots, this will no doubt have to be modified. The composting or moldering privies may be an effective solution. For the remainder of cases (like the Whites, maybe), pack it out may be the only effective solution.

I had the pleasure of digging up a 40 year old septic tank a while back, and what we found was black soil. That means high carbon content, which you would expect, but no smell, no apparent anaerobic activity. Everything decays in time, unless it is preserved by particular conditions. Question is how long, and will it be a nuisance in the mean time.

[Tipi Walter]

Jesus, people, fellow hikers and countrymen/women, just dig a cathole about 100 feet from the AT, make sure its not near a water source, and let it go at that. Its basic scouting 101.

Now this one made me laugh. "Lend me your ears, young Romans . . ."

"For God's sake, just squat and take a dump!"

Exasperation on a thread about carrying your own feces, now that's funny.

[Mags]

This thread is full of *****. :D

[Tin Man]

Now this one made me laugh. "Lend me your ears, young Romans . . ."

"For God's sake, just squat and take a dump!"

Exasperation on a thread about carrying your own feces, now that's funny.

Weasy is just FOP (full of poo) as usual. Making up issues where none exists for the sake of arguing is his usual modus operandi. The AT is organic and receptive to cat holes. His hiking on WB is not. :)

[Tin Man]

Tin, I have no doubt that you're right about VT/NH, but I believe there are relativelylew, outside of NPS lands, in the southern sections, and very, very few in midwestern and western states.

TW

Actually, others have disputed this. Georgia and other areas are replacing the pit toilet. Oh, BTW, this might be a revelation to you, but this is an AT forum. Pack your poo on another forum, the AT is organic.

[Heater]

Whatta bunch crap.

[The Weasel]

Tin:

1) No, this isn't "an AT forum."
2) No, the AT isn't "organic".
3) Don't tell me to go away. I was here first.

Makes me feel - almost - sorry for being polite to you.

TW

[Tin Man]

Tin:

1) No, this isn't "an AT forum."
2) No, the AT isn't "organic".
3) Don't tell me to go away. I was here first.

Makes me feel - almost - sorry for being polite to you.

TW

Thanks TW, I appreciate the laugh.

[Tin Man]

Tin:

1) No, this isn't "an AT forum."
2) No, the AT isn't "organic".
3) Don't tell me to go away. I was here first.

Makes me feel - almost - sorry for being polite to you.

TW

Get out you're reading glasses, the title of this thread is: "Poll: Do you pack IT out??? (on the AT)". That's what it says. Oh, and in case you are confused, this is whiteblaze, named after the white blazes on the AT. This forum is "Health, Safety & Hygiene" under "Appalachian Trail Forums". There are other forums on WB named after other trails and then there is "other trails", but you know that because you were here first.

Let's not forget the smilie, in case you take any of your poo, my poo, or anyone else's poo seriously.:D

[Montego]

(sigh) I suppose we should be exptecting 'FART - O - METERS' next :D

[TOW]

When I crap in the woods I cover it with leaves and other plant material. I also make sure it is off of the beaten path..........

Insects and the microbes in the leaf matter will break it down to a harmless state.

[dessertrat]

Crap really is biodegradeable. Just do it.

[Heater]

Tin:

1) No, this isn't "an AT forum."
2) No, the AT isn't "organic".
3) Don't tell me to go away. I was here first.

Makes me feel - almost - sorry for being polite to you.

TW


Thanks TW, I appreciate the laugh.

Cracked me up too. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/laughing001.gif

Especially #2. file:///C:/Users/James/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-6.jpg

[Heater]

Cracked me up too. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/laughing001.gif

Especially #2. file:///C:/Users/James/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-6.jpg

Awww crap.

[Heater]

Awww crap.

Crapitty crap crap. :D

[Gray Blazer]

I call upon Godwin's maxim or law or whatever it is and declare TW and his ilk to be the poop nazis. Guess what liberals? You can't control everything. Until Hillbillary gets elected, I am not carrying my poop out of the woods. There. Maybe this crappy thread will be put in the political forum.

[Gray Blazer]

I call upon Godwin's maxim or law or whatever it is and declare TW and his ilk to be the poop nazis. Guess what liberals? You can't control everything. Until Hillbillary gets elected, I am not carrying my poop out of the woods. There. Maybe this crappy thread will be put in the political forum.
Some people are so anal.:D

[River Runner]

Runner, I don't say it to be antagonistic, but I think I'd like to know how you feel about burying other waste. As I said above, why isn't it OK, then, to bury other waste that will degrade? Can I bury left over food? Banana peels? Paper? Bibles I don't like seeing in shelters? Why not?

Most of the reason, to be honest, is the same as the objections to purified (and I mean PURE) recycled wastewater: What the professionals call "the Ewww! Factor". But there's no "Eww" to this: It's easy, sanitary, and removes, frankly, more waste-by-weight than carrying out a tuna can and some paper wrapping. There are few disadvantages (other than for the lazy) and many advantages. So what is the objection that differentiates body waste from other trash? Or do you think LNT should be changed to permit burying everything we dispose of?

Thanks for thinking on this. I know it's new to a lot of people.

TW

To be honest, I don't take other organic waste that I have to dispose of on the trail. I fix food in small enough quantities that I eat it all. I don't carry fresh bananas or oranges or other items on the trail that have peels. Most of my food is dehydrated, freeze dried, or things like nuts or energy bars.

Personally I pack out all trash & think others should too. I think it would be an individual decision as to whether to bury orange peels or banana peels, although I would prefer they be packed out, not so much because of the 'trash' factor as due to the possiblity of attracting animals to an area and habituating them to scavenge for waste.

In my opinion what differentiates body waste from other trash is the greater likelihood of spreading disease by packing it around. No matter how careful you are to double bag, you are still handling that bag many times over the course of a trip. And what are you doing to clean the trowel that you are scooping the poo up with? Where do you keep it? When you use a trowel for a cat hole, you are not supposed to touch the feces with it - you use it to dig the soil. With your method the trowel is in direct contact with the feces.

If trash isn't different than feces, then why do you need to dispose of feces in a sewage disposal method instead of just tossing it in the trash? Clearly health authorities recognize a difference.

I'm not advocating burying trash along the trail, but if we really think about it when we dispose of something at home, that's pretty much what happens to it. Well not along the trail, but it ends up buried somewhere in a landfill.

It's a problem that I don't know how to solve, but maybe we would be better off burying organic waste where it can at least go back and enrich the soil.

As far as the Bible in the shelter, I guess you have a few choices - don't stay in a shelter, toss your pack on top of it so you don't have to look at it, or choose to ignore it. Personally I don't think a book or two in a shelter is a major issue, but if I did, I guess I would pack it out the same as I pack out discarded soda bottles, torn up rain gear, or other trash that I find laying around, in order to leave the place looking a little better than when I came.

[River Runner]

Tin:

1) No, this isn't "an AT forum."

TW

What kind of forum is it then?

[Tin Man]

Cracked me up too.

Especially #2.


I call upon Godwin's maxim or law or whatever it is and declare TW and his ilk to be the poop nazis. Guess what liberals? You can't control everything. Until Hillbillary gets elected, I am not carrying my poop out of the woods. There. Maybe this crappy thread will be put in the political forum.


What kind of forum is it then?

Welcome to CACA, the Coalation Against Crap on At forums. :)

[rafe]

When I crap in the woods I cover it with leaves and other plant material. I also make sure it is off of the beaten path..........

I do hope you do more than just cover it...

[Bearpaw]

It's the east. With our moisture, feces and TP are going to break down very quickly. Bury both. Move on.

You're much more likely to spread disease carrying your feces around in your pack.

Ridiculous thread....

[Wilson]

The only practical solution is to spead it out on rocks till it's sundried and burn it in a zip stove to heat your water.

[Heater]

I call upon Godwin's maxim or law or whatever it is and declare TW and his ilk to be the poop nazis.

...and from here forward, tha Weasel shall be referred to as "****ler".

:D

:banana

[Heater]

...and from here forward, tha Weasel shall be referred to as "****ler".

:D

:banana

OK, how 'bout "scat-ler". :D

[Tin Man]

It's the east. With our moisture, feces and TP are going to break down very quickly. Bury both. Move on.

You're much more likely to spread disease carrying your feces around in your pack.

Ridiculous thread....

Agreed...on all points.

[Heater]

OK, how 'bout "scat-ler". :D

S-hitler? :-?

[ed bell]

Sometimes I'll just take one look at my pot of food and put it all right into a dug cathole. Why bother with the processing?I really laughed out loud just then.:)

[GGS2]

The only practical solution is to spead it out on rocks till it's sundried and burn it in a zip stove to heat your water.

Now you're talking!

[ed bell]

The AT in GSMNP has a problem from what I have seen. That's a product of rationed campsites, shelter only overnights on the AT and lazy ass campers. I was at Cosby Shelter and the "poop field" was obvious. I avoided it like the plague. My solution was to take a short walk; get out of sight; find a nice tree I could hold on to; dig that hole around 6-8 inches deep; hold on; aim; fire; cover up; add leaf frosting; foot tamp; feel better; skip back to my camp.:sun

[Pedaling Fool]

The AT in GSMNP has a problem from what I have seen. That's a product of rationed campsites, shelter only overnights on the AT and lazy ass campers. I was at Cosby Shelter and the "poop field" was obvious. I avoided it like the plague. My solution was to take a short walk; get out of sight; find a nice tree I could hold on to; dig that hole around 6-8 inches deep; hold on; aim; fire; cover up; add leaf frosting; foot tamp; feel better; skip back to my camp.:sun
Anyone notice that the "poop fields" through GSMNP are always on the NC side, was that just a coincidence?:-?

[ed bell]

Anyone notice that the "poop fields" through GSMNP are always on the NC side, was that just a coincidence?:-?The Tenn. side is steeper.:D

[sheepdog]

(sigh) I suppose we should be exptecting 'FART - O - METERS' next :D
Actually with global warming and the green house gas effect. You probably should pack your farts out.:eek:

[ChinMusic]

So The Weasel is in a group consisting of 1.71% of responding backpackers?

Interesting......

[STEVEM]

You should keep your feeshes in a can until you're ready to eat.

http://www.teiksenn.com/product/canned/images/canSardines.jpg

[minnesotasmith]

Would I pack out my solid excrement and used TP. Plenty of other omnivorous animals take dumps in the woods without destroying them. I don't see that it's "natural" for them to, but not for me to. We both evolved on this planet, and both live in this country; I'm no alien invader from outer space when I go to the woods. :rolleyes:

Re the TP; trees drop plenty of cellulose (as limbs, twigs, leaves, etc.). If I leave a bit behind, it's obviously NOT the end of the world. I'll of course bury it or roll a big rock over it if possible, but in winter in areas where I can't get a mobile rock the right size, sometimes that won't happen. For consequences, think small bear...

[GGS2]

The Tenn. side is steeper.:D

So people over there just let fly and watch their trouble roll away down the hill?

[Tin Man]

So The Weasel is in a group consisting of 1.71% of responding backpackers?

Interesting......

Yeah, and if everyone on WB responded I am sure that number would go down.

[Roland]

So The Weasel is in a group consisting of 1.71% of responding backpackers?

Interesting......


Yeah, and if everyone on WB responded I am sure that number would go down.

Gives new meaning to: "Get y'er SHlT packed; it's time to go."

[minnesotasmith]

So people over there just let fly and watch their trouble roll away down the hill?

The, uh, donor doesn't have nearly enough fiber/fruit in his diet. ;)

[rafe]

Gives new meaning to: "Get y'er SHlT packed; it's time to go."

Gives a new meaning to " packin' ".

[rickb]

Of those who report packing out just their TP, I suspect many are women who are picking up relatively unsoiled paper they had dropped a few feet from their tent the night before. As such, I don't think the poll paints a full picture of what's going on.

The biggest source of TP close to the Trail in many areas are day hiking women who use some after taking a pee. Its not dug up, but rather simply blown out out from under the pile of leaves they may have kicked over it (it they even bothered).

So goes my theory.

I appreciate those who protect the aesthetics of the woods by keeping TP and waste buried in out of the way areas. The AT is resilient to any real damage form it, however. Again, my theory.

[mweinstone]

yes i do! funny you should ask.i carry it in leaves tied to my waste. when i have a full belt of poops, i ask to use a resturants toilet. it usually takes about fourty flushes but they dont ask questions. its worked for me so far! never left a poop yet. i use my packs bladder for urine and dump it in the sink at gas stations. the toilet paper i neatly re roll and put in the laundry in town and reuse. it has to be gathered up in the dryer screen but its still good. any other questions?

[Frozen Bait]

I have been preparing and testing the new equiptment that I get (such as setting up the new light tent in the dark)
Yesterday I decided to practice my "pack it out" technique in the front yard.
The neighbors were not too excited about this one.

[Tipi Walter]

I have been preparing and testing the new equiptment that I get (such as setting up the new light tent in the dark)
Yesterday I decided to practice my "pack it out" technique in the front yard.
The neighbors were not too excited about this one.

At least you're doing your part, dangit. American needs to wake up and start to Support Our Poops.

[dessertrat]

yes i do! funny you should ask.i carry it in leaves tied to my waste.

To your waste or your waist?

[River Runner]

The biggest source of TP close to the Trail in many areas are day hiking women who use some after taking a pee. Its not dug up, but rather simply blown out out from under the pile of leaves they may have kicked over it (it they even bothered).

So goes my theory.

I expect you might be right, unfortunately. Reminds me of the time I was hiking a rail trail to a certain point (a tunnel), met a family of bicyclists on the other side, walked back through the tunnel and spotted a bunch of T.P. flowers that weren't there when I'd just passed by a few minutes before.

Considered walking back & telling them to pick up there mess, but I didn't. I should have. :mad:

[dessertrat]

I expect you might be right, unfortunately. Reminds me of the time I was hiking a rail trail to a certain point (a tunnel), met a family of bicyclists on the other side, walked back through the tunnel and spotted a bunch of T.P. flowers that weren't there when I'd just passed by a few minutes before.

Considered walking back & telling them to pick up there mess, but I didn't. I should have. :mad:

That's almost never productive. Most people who would do that would just deny that they did it, and where would that get you? Earl Shaffer wrote in his first thru-hike journal about a dog biting him, right in front of the dog's owner, and the owner denied that the dog had bitten him right to his face!

That's the way irresponsible people are most of the time. It wasn't me, not my problem, it must have been someone else, etc.

[minnesotasmith]

Earl Shaffer wrote in his first thru-hike journal about a dog biting him, right in front of the dog's owner, and the owner denied that the dog had bitten him right to his face!

That's the way irresponsible people are most of the time. It wasn't me, not my problem, it must have been someone else, etc.

Earl should have killed the stray dog on the spot, then when the owner started whining about the animal-control activity, with a straight face denied he'd done this obviously-needed field euthenization.

[River Runner]

Earl should have killed the stray dog on the spot, then when the owner started whining about the animal-control activity, with a straight face denied he'd done this obviously-needed field euthenization.

:eek: And risked being shot by the irate dog owner himself? Glad Earl had more sense or he may have never made it to Maine.

[River Runner]

That's the way irresponsible people are most of the time. It wasn't me, not my problem, it must have been someone else, etc.

Yes, you are probably right.

[BobEFord]

Sounds to me like from this thread that the AT must be like hiking north of the Mexican border and south of the nearest freeway.

[minnesotasmith]

Sounds to me like from this thread that the AT must be like hiking north of the Mexican border and south of the nearest freeway.

I'd guess it's worst right after winter, and at shelter areas near roads.

[ed bell]

Earl should have killed the stray dog on the spot, then when the owner started whining about the animal-control activity, with a straight face denied he'd done this obviously-needed field euthenization.Sounds good, how many dogs have you killed?:-?

[BigStu]

Now this thread has really got me in a quandary.

I came to WB and have had all sorts of questions answered:

Should I be worries about bears ?: No, act sensible and don't try to cuddle the little ones

Should I be worried about ticks (after what the ALDF told me) ? : Yes, use permethrin & DEET as required, check your nether regions with due diligence etc etc

Should I be worried about LW ? : Only if I try to persuade him that shelters area jolly good idea and could only be improved with some lovely chintz curtains rather than a stick of dynamite.

However, this thread has got to me.

All of the above I have listened and learnt as a diligent AT\WB newbie should; however, I fear a line has now been crossed. I can cope with upsetting someone if I slept in a shelter; I can cope with upsetting someone if I prefer oatmeal to wallpaper paste, sorry ... grits but the fear of upsetting someone if I should be found with trowel in hand making a deposit in a bear-like fashion is just too much ! Apart from anything else, it's extremely difficult to conduct an argument with dignity if your trousers are round your ankles. :D

[Wolf - 23000]

i fling my feces in and on shelters

Are the privies to small? We all know you are full of crap.:D

Wolf

[Lone Wolf]

privies are extremely unsanitary. only a fool would use one

[Tin Man]

Sanitize the privy before going for a bomb run. A little stove fuel, a match and about 2 hours ought to do it.

[River Runner]

I can cope with upsetting someone if I slept in a shelter; I can cope with upsetting someone if I prefer oatmeal to wallpaper paste, sorry ... grits but the fear of upsetting someone if I should be found with trowel in hand making a deposit in a bear-like fashion is just too much ! Apart from anything else, it's extremely difficult to conduct an argument with dignity if your trousers are round your ankles. :D

Considering the results of the poll on this thread, I don't think you have much to worry about BigStu. ;)

[Hooch]

It's the east. With our moisture, feces and TP are going to break down very quickly. Bury both. Move on.

You're much more likely to spread disease carrying your feces around in your pack.

Ridiculous thread.... Or, according to the CDC, on your hands from not washing afterward, or in the backcountry, using hand sanitizing gel. Dig a hole, poop in it, bury it and the TP, cover it, clean your hands and go on. It's that simple.

[gold bond]

"When I get hungry...I eat. When I get tired...I sleep and when I gotta you know....well...I you know!!"

[Mags]

. American needs to wake up and start to Support Our Poops.

Would you wear a brown ribbon?

[Rain Man]

I can cope with upsetting someone if I prefer oatmeal to wallpaper paste, sorry ...

Oatmeal IS wallpaper paste! So, no offense taken (unless yer meant to besmearch the good name and flavors of grits!).
:D
Rain:sunMan

.

[Lone Wolf]

Well, what doodoo do you doo?

packin' out *hit on the AT is the stupidest Fing thing to do. if anybody actually does it.

[The Weasel]

I call upon Godwin's maxim or law or whatever it is and declare TW and his ilk to be the poop nazis. Guess what liberals? You can't control everything.

Gray, sorry you can't read: No one - including me - is proposing "controlling" you. Frankly, the idea of you with your pants down is a little scary, so I'll just leave things up to your willingness to do the right thing. Or not.


Personally I pack out all trash & think others should too. ***

In my opinion what differentiates body waste from other trash is the greater likelihood of spreading disease by packing it around. ***If trash isn't different than feces, then why do you need to dispose of feces in a sewage disposal method instead of just tossing it in the trash? Clearly health authorities recognize a difference.

I'm not advocating burying trash along the trail, but if we really think about it when we dispose of something at home, that's pretty much what happens to it. Well not along the trail, but it ends up buried somewhere in a landfill.

It's a problem that I don't know how to solve, but maybe we would be better off burying organic waste where it can at least go back and enrich the soil.

Packing out other waste - organic and non-organic, including human waste - is pretty much for the same reasons: It doesn't degrade as fast as people think, it contaminates the local soil, and it is unsightly. "Enriching the soil" with any ol' dang thing just isn't enriching it. If you don't believe that, well, "LNT" doesn't have real meaning for you.


I expect you might be right, unfortunately. Reminds me of the time I was hiking a rail trail to a certain point (a tunnel), met a family of bicyclists on the other side, walked back through the tunnel and spotted a bunch of T.P. flowers that weren't there when I'd just passed by a few minutes before.

Considered walking back & telling them to pick up there mess, but I didn't. I should have. :mad:

And, having picked it up, done what with it? Packed it out? Or should every mountain biker family/woman bring a toilet trowel.?


*** That's the way irresponsible people are most of the time. It wasn't me, not my problem, it must have been someone else, etc.

Or denied that it's a problem. "People have done this for years! The animals do it! The paper will biodegrade real fast." Sorry, folks. Not so.

---

Oh, and WhiteBlaze isn't an "Appalachian Trail forum". It's a place for those who love the AT. But look around. There's a lot more than just AT stuff here. As it should be. Those who want to limit discussions to 'just AT' should find one of the many such sites for that.

TW

[hobojoe]

packin' out *hit on the AT is the stupidest Fing thing to do. if anybody actually does it.
I am happier about the 3 folks packing out their "left-overs" than the 20 who just plop on the ground.

[The Weasel]

Fort those who are willing to consider the possibility that this is a real, and significant, issue in places such as the AT, I just found (thanks to Google Books) the book "Soft Paths" on line. For those who haven't read it, it's one of the leading books on LNT techniques, published by NOLS. Go to page 67 about sanitation and read onwards (unfortunately, it looks like 2 or 3 pages were omitted in copying, but the rest is good). You'll see that even urine is not always a safe 'outdoor' deposit (although safely in the US), and that 'packout' is the preferred solution, although, as the author says, not always the most practical for most people. But the "it decomposes fast and harmlessly" argument is also considered, and rejected, base on science, not guesswork: Pathogens last a LONG time.

As "How to $hit in the Woods" (Meyer, 1990 or thereabouts) also indicates, surface smearing on rocks is the best solution to permit decomposition and packout. IF people used it. That doesn't sole the problem of TP, which still needs to be packed out.

Here is the link; it will take you to a Google page that you can then click on. (It says there are 5 versions; one may have the missing pages from the one I looked at.) Start at page 67.

TW

[The Weasel]

Link didn't copy. Here it is again: Copy that, put into Google search, and it should come up.

author:"Hampton" intitle:"Nols Soft Paths: How to Enjoy the Wilderness Without ..."

Maybe this one will work directly:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=pL35TlfqC8AC&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&ots=qDO76_TR_v&sig=BKS54c1p83cCmMxlyhwo2xrgGdI

[Tin Man]

Um, Weasel, if you keep spreading that poo, more people will get sick from sitting on and touching rocks.

[Lone Wolf]

Fort those who are willing to consider the possibility that this is a real, and significant, issue in places such as the AT, I just found (thanks to Google Books) the book "Soft Paths" on line. For those who haven't read it, it's one of the leading books on LNT techniques, published by NOLS. Go to page 67 about sanitation and read onwards (unfortunately, it looks like 2 or 3 pages were omitted in copying, but the rest is good). You'll see that even urine is not always a safe 'outdoor' deposit (although safely in the US), and that 'packout' is the preferred solution, although, as the author says, not always the most practical for most people. But the "it decomposes fast and harmlessly" argument is also considered, and rejected, base on science, not guesswork: Pathogens last a LONG time.

As "How to $hit in the Woods" (Meyer, 1990 or thereabouts) also indicates, surface smearing on rocks is the best solution to permit decomposition and packout. IF people used it. That doesn't sole the problem of TP, which still needs to be packed out.

Here is the link; it will take you to a Google page that you can then click on. (It says there are 5 versions; one may have the missing pages from the one I looked at.) Start at page 67.

TW

it's a non-issue on the AT. the *hit stays

[The Weasel]

"In arease that are not equipped with toilet facilities, packing out feces is the most responsible way of dealing with human waste."

Soft Paths, NOLS.


TW

[Lone Wolf]

NOLS is wrong

[rickb]

it's a non-issue on the AT. the *hit stays


Following a so-called authority without critical evaluation can get you in deep ****.

Makes me wonder what other falsehoods NOLS is putting forth.

[The Weasel]

Following a so-called authority without critical evaluation can get you in deep ****.

Makes me wonder what other falsehoods NOLS is putting forth.

Rick, are you working from the proposition that "I know I'm right and I don't care what the facts are," or are you willing to consider what people who really have some expertise in the area are saying and that they might have a point. NOLS doesn't have an axe to grind, and the research (on longevity of pathogens and non-decomposition) is reported a number of other places.

Take a look at it. I was asked to cite references as having "the burden of proof" for more than just my opinion. I'd like to see 'proof' from those who say more than 'catholes are the best solution under the circumstances.' Feces - even along the AT - doesn't decompose as fast as people think; TP is horribly unsightly and doesn't decompose for years, in some cases; fecal matter from humans pollutes water with pathogens. I think I've posted sources for these facts. If you have more, I really would welcome them. This is a signficant issue for backpackers, and going to be a larger one; more thoughts (beyond the "I'm going to do whatever I want to" type) area useful part of the discussion.

TW

[rickb]

Rick, are you working from the proposition that "I know I'm right and I don't care what the facts are," or are you willing to consider what people who really have some expertise in the area are saying and that they might have a point. NOLS doesn't have an axe to grind, and the research (on longevity of pathogens and non-decomposition) is reported a number of other places.

Take a look at it. I was asked to cite references as having "the burden of proof" for more than just my opinion. I'd like to see 'proof' from those who say more than 'catholes are the best solution under the circumstances.' Feces - even along the AT - doesn't decompose as fast as people think; TP is horribly unsightly and doesn't decompose for years, in some cases; fecal matter from humans pollutes water with pathogens. I think I've posted sources for these facts. If you have more, I really would welcome them. This is a signficant issue for backpackers, and going to be a larger one; more thoughts (beyond the "I'm going to do whatever I want to" type) area useful part of the discussion.

TW

The collective widom here on Whiteblaze carries more weight than this author.

Simple.

[hobojoe]

The collective widom here on Whiteblaze carries more weight than this author.

Simple.
More like Wiz-DUMB.

[The Weasel]

The collective widom here on Whiteblaze carries more weight than this author.

Simple.

So "the majority rules" when it comes to science? Ahh. That explains much. Ever hear of Galileo? If not, no biggie.

TW

[gold bond]

Read on though...pg 73-74, "Although packing it out is not practical in most cases. Use toilets or Latrines where provided. In more popular places regularly visited by people it is better to bury waste in a cathole."

[rickb]

"TP is horribly unsightly and doesn't decompose for years."

You ever own property with a septic tank?

Or have your house TP'd on halloween?

If burried toilet paper isn't breaking down in eastern soils, get a pattent on the stuff. It could be worth millions.

[hobojoe]

So "the majority rules" when it comes to science? Ahh. That explains much. Ever hear of Galileo? If not, no biggie.

TW
If the world is flat how do you explain the AT??? I wouldn't rely on, or take to heart anything us armchair E-hikers claim to be true. Science has been upgraded to scientology these days.

[The Weasel]

Rick, read the section of the book. It won't hurt you.

Yes, I had a septic tank. Do you know why they are called "septic"? Look up the word. And yes, my house was "TP'd" on occasion. And I noted that TP didn't get out of the deep area of the lawn for a long time.

And for others, yes, NOLS says "Cathole if you wont pack it out." That's not a "good" solution, but a "less worse" one.

TW

[rickb]

"And yes, my house was "TP'd" on occasion"

Now why doesn't that surprise me.

[Tin Man]

Read on though...pg 73-74, "Although packing it out is not practical in most cases. Use toilets or Latrines where provided. In more popular places regularly visited by people it is better to bury waste in a cathole."

Weasy, this quote makes me wonder what else you have left out. Like what do you do with the doo you remove? It has to go somewhere. And you must know that it has an impact, both carbon and sanitary, that may be much less than the perfect world you seem to think packing it enfolds?

Show us the study that tells us the AT corridor is an unhealthy sewage dump and maybe you will get more traction. I think the test of time has shown otherwise.

[warraghiyagey]

Weasy, this quote makes me wonder what else you have left out. Like what do you do with the doo you remove? It has to go somewhere. And you must know that it has an impact, both carbon and sanitary, that may be much less than the perfect world you seem to think packing it enfolds?

Show us the study that tells us the AT corridor is an unhealthy sewage dump and maybe you will get more traction. I think the test of time has shown otherwise.
See? Even with the Politics forum closed it's still possible to argue about *****.

[Tin Man]

See? Even with the Politics forum closed it's still possible to argue about *****.

And a colossal waste of time as well. ;)

[The Weasel]

Tin, if you prefer 'straw man' arguments, fine. Ignore this topic. I haven't said the AT is "unhealthy sewage dump". I have said that there are tons of human waste deposited along it, and that it's gotten to the point where it's having a bad effect on the environment there and elsewhere. So far, other than "this is what we've always done" and "everyone knows it decomposes," there isn't any fact-based disagreeement with me. Most of it ends up with "catholes are OK." Yes, compared to not burying, it's better. And I didn't leave anything "out" - but told people to read the entire section. And the conclusion remains: Packing it out is best. "Impractical" means basically, "Yeah, we know it's a hard sell and most people won't be equipped to do it."

And wouldn't it be nice to prevent the AT from becoming an "unhealthy sewage dump"? Isn't it time to prevent the world from being trashed, instead of doing so and then saying, "Yeah, let's fix it." Maybe not everything can be "fixed" after we ruin it.

Maybe it's time to do the right thing before we've done the wrong thing to the point where it can be corrected. This is one such.

TW

[woodsy]

Some people just go on and on about the same ol s**t............. :rolleyes:

[Tin Man]

Tin, if you prefer 'straw man' arguments, fine. Ignore this topic. I haven't said the AT is "unhealthy sewage dump". I have said that there are tons of human waste deposited along it, and that it's gotten to the point where it's having a bad effect on the environment there and elsewhere. So far, other than "this is what we've always done" and "everyone knows it decomposes," there isn't any fact-based disagreeement with me. Most of it ends up with "catholes are OK." Yes, compared to not burying, it's better. And I didn't leave anything "out" - but told people to read the entire section. And the conclusion remains: Packing it out is best. "Impractical" means basically, "Yeah, we know it's a hard sell and most people won't be equipped to do it."

And wouldn't it be nice to prevent the AT from becoming an "unhealthy sewage dump"? Isn't it time to prevent the world from being trashed, instead of doing so and then saying, "Yeah, let's fix it." Maybe not everything can be "fixed" after we ruin it.

Maybe it's time to do the right thing before we've done the wrong thing to the point where it can be corrected. This is one such.

TW

Weasy, my point is that the AT is still there after many, many years of so called abuse. It has not been condemned as a sewage dump. Science often targets a singular activity without fully exploring the consequences of the activity needed to replace it.

[Tin Man]

Some people just go on and on about the same ol s**t.............

Yep and I am done with this particular **** topic. Can't change him, ignore him. ;)

[The Weasel]

Weasy, my point is that the AT is still there after many, many years of so called abuse. It has not been condemned as a sewage dump. Science often targets a singular activity without fully exploring the consequences of the activity needed to replace it.

Tin, after many years, there is a huge amount of degradation of the trail, the areas surrounding it, and more is coming. That's pretty obvious, particularly in the heaviest use areas. Unless you just want it to be a theme park, it's time for us to do more. If you want to ignore this topic, that's up to you. But there is a problem, and if you don't want to be part of the solution, that's up to you.

TW

[rickb]

"Impractical" means basically, "Yeah, we know it's a hard sell and most people won't be equipped to do it."


American Heritage Dictionary:

1. Unwise to implement or maintain in practice: Refloating the sunken ship proved impractical because of the great expense.



On a related note, I just replaced two old toilets with 1.28 GPF versions yesterday. Not the absolute best out there, but enough of an improvement that I feel morally superior with regard to ****ting this weekend.

No offense intended by my comments. I post largely for my own amusement and sometimes fail to consider that others self-esteem may be wrapped up in the reactions they get.

[envirodiver]

TW, there have been several questions asked of you regarding this topic that you have not responded to.

Did you take the time to read the information I posted regarding the moldering privies. You have made no statements about privies since you said that they are OK when the work, yet were not prevalent along the length of the AT or something along those lines.
You were asked about the cleaning (or not) of the trowel that you use to scoop the feces from the ground and the unsanitary nature of that process. It's seems impossible to me that you would be able to get everything off of the ground. Do you just carry a poopy trowel around. That seems like a very unsantitary practice.
With all of the handling of feces it would seem that the chances of accidental contact (getting the feces on your hands) and that handwashing would be more important than ever. How do you adequately wash your hands without using water. If using water are you then containerizing it?
You mentioned that the older feces that is dried with the kitty litter (bentonite clay) is dumped into someones toilet. What do you do with that mornings feces, that will not be dried? Do you flush a paper sack down someones toilet? Is the residue that is in the dried sacks safe to be thrown in a trash can as you suggest? Since no process has taken place to disenfect it.It just seems to me that the packing out process is much more unsanitary and opens the door for a person to self-infect themselves, or someone else much more than diggin a hole, dropping the feces, properly covering and moving on.

[Lone Wolf]

Tin, after many years, there is a huge amount of degradation of the trail, the areas surrounding it, and more is coming. That's pretty obvious, particularly in the heaviest use areas. Unless you just want it to be a theme park, it's time for us to do more. If you want to ignore this topic, that's up to you. But there is a problem, and if you don't want to be part of the solution, that's up to you.

TW

how would you know? you only walked 500 miles of the trail 8 years ago. there is no problem on the AT

[hobojoe]

how would you know? you only walked 500 miles of the trail 8 years ago. there is no problem on the AT
Uh oh, belittling another's hiking experience? The claws are realy out now. I knew I'd figure out which one of you is planting "flowers".

[The Weasel]

TW, there have been several questions asked of you regarding this topic that you have not responded to.

Did you take the time to read the information I posted regarding the moldering privies. You have made no statements about privies since you said that they are OK when the work, yet were not prevalent along the length of the AT or something along those lines.
You were asked about the cleaning (or not) of the trowel that you use to scoop the feces from the ground and the unsanitary nature of that process. It's seems impossible to me that you would be able to get everything off of the ground. Do you just carry a poopy trowel around. That seems like a very unsantitary practice.
With all of the handling of feces it would seem that the chances of accidental contact (getting the feces on your hands) and that handwashing would be more important than ever. How do you adequately wash your hands without using water. If using water are you then containerizing it?
You mentioned that the older feces that is dried with the kitty litter (bentonite clay) is dumped into someones toilet. What do you do with that mornings feces, that will not be dried? Do you flush a paper sack down someones toilet? Is the residue that is in the dried sacks safe to be thrown in a trash can as you suggest? Since no process has taken place to disenfect it.It just seems to me that the packing out process is much more unsanitary and opens the door for a person to self-infect themselves, or someone else much more than diggin a hole, dropping the feces, properly covering and moving on.

Env:

Some were responded to and I missed others. I'll take another swing at them:

1) I mentioned that composting privies are a great thing, as long as they are working. When I think of the term "privy" I'm thinking outhouse with a hole in the ground. New terms take a while to sink in.

2) I use my toilet trowl to scoop waste from the ground, having first scraped leaves/mulch away a bit. I'm pretty good at it, I suppose, so it is rare that there is any/much on the trowel, but I wipe it with a handful of leaves and put it in its own ziploc in my toilet kit. I use a bit of antibacterial lotion to clean my hands then. Only takes a moment or two.

3) See above. Actually, there is almost nothing I touch that has any waste to it, any more than a person who is fairly careful with toilet practices ever gets much on them when using toilet paper. I do wash my hands (usually with a small bit of soap) before doing food prep, and yes, I do that off trail, away from my campsite, and away from water sources and I "throw/scatter" grey water (yes, I strain out larger food particles, that's another topic) 200 feet from the trail.

4) Human waste, like cat waste, dries adequately from cat litter even in an hour or so, and will fall quickly from the paper bag (with the TP in it, as well) into a toilet. It should never go in a trash can. You simply unroll the bag top, hold it over a toilet, and it will go in. One should not put more than one load per flush or otherwise risk plugging the toilet if it is a flush toilet. A better choice (not as easily don) is to dispose of it in a campstie solid waste disposal tank.

Env, there "isn't a lot of handling of feces" by me. Actually, there is none; I've done this for several years, and it is simple, clean, safe, and I have never had a "spill" or other problem, and it frankly involves no more time or effort than catholes, particularly since pretty much everyone now recommends packing out the TP, at least. Ask anyone with a cat...is it their favorite thing to do each day to clean a litter box? No. Is it risky or nasty? Not really. Do they wash their hands or use antibacterial lotion? I hope so.

TW

[The Weasel]

Uh oh, belittling another's hiking experience? The claws are realy out now. I knew I'd figure out which one of you is planting "flowers".

Joe, when Wolf can't disagree with what someone is saying, he just attacks them. No biggie. I'm used to it. Doesn't mean I'm wrong.

TW

[Lone Wolf]

Joe, when Wolf can't disagree with what someone is saying, he just attacks them. No biggie. I'm used to it. Doesn't mean I'm wrong.

TW

nope. not attacking. you are very wrong. packing out *hit is absolutely absurd. nobody does except you

[D'Artagnan]

I had avoided this thread because I thought it was just a joke. I just read the last few posts and, jeez louise, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. I've never met ANYONE who carries out their fecal matter. ???:confused:

[woodsy]

And I recommend this thread be moved to the hiking humor forum ASAFP!

[double d]

Jesus, as I said before about this topic, do your business at least 100 feet from a water source and the AT and dig a cathole. My God, this topic is truly sh......y

[rickb]

I "throw/scatter" grey water (yes, I strain out larger food particles, that's another topic) 200 feet from the trail.

As a practical matter, better to just fling your water to the wind, or pour into a hole.

Thousands of people creating their own paths for such feel-good nonsense would create too much damage.

Besides, most hikers are simply too afraid to walk 200 feet away from the trail for any reason.

[The Weasel]

Well, Rick, I've been in a lot of remote places. And I took to heart the things I learned in Scouting a long time ago, to 'leave only footprints' and maybe not a lot of those. The principles have evolved: Back in the '50s, burying food waste was considered "good practices", and burning cans in a campfire were too. Back then, those were considered to be far preferable - "less worse" - than the then-traditional practices of "throw it far off trail, it will blend in, and no one will see it" that was the style earlier. But that has changed, and so does the rest of it all. Human waste will be next; even now, some privies are sometimes removed in favor of "packouts" since they are so expensive and difficult to service.

I'm not perfect, either, but I try hard to get 200 feet 'off trail' unless that's imposible (on knife edge ridges, well, it's not easy) even to urinate. But I'm proud that I can honestly say that I don't leave anything along the trail that I've brought in except for some urea and as few tracks as possible, unless there's a waste container somewhere, whether a trash can (for non-body waste) that looks like it's serviced or a privy (yes, preferably composting). I don't criticise others who do differently - yes, I disagree, as I have here, but I don't think I've told someone "you're evil" or whatever (if I have, I'm sorry) for doing something that's better than many alternatives such as catholing.

But do the math, and consider the alternatives. Why aren't you 'catholing' in your lawn now and then, if it's harmless? Don't you at least agree that TP should be packed out? What do we do about "cathole fields" by some shelters that are so overloaded with feces - poorly buried, often dug up by animals - that they are real problems? Are the backcountry experts at NOLS and elsewhere totally wrong when they view backcountry sanitation as a major problem and drain on resources? And why not try to prevent a crisis where it remains preventable (and in a lot of places, it's past that, now, such as alpine/high altitude locations) rather than having to do a lot of draconian, expensive remediation after the crisis point is passed?

If those questions have meaning for you, then reflect on packing at least TP, and possibly even human waste. It's not unsanitary, it's not hard, and it's a good thing.

I've said about all that can be said; those who are willing to be thoughtful on this will do so, and the others will mock it. But I think the outdoors deserves our care, every way possible.

TW

[eventidecu]

Got to go with Lone Wolf here, I aint packin out either. Guess Weasels' new trail name is "Droopy Drawers".

[Lone Wolf]

NOBODY packs out poo on the AT

[The Weasel]

Wolf, yes they do. They just don't mention it to, or around, you, since it's fairly obvious you'll mock them for it. And it's not a "let me tell you how much I packed out" type of thing.

TW

[Lone Wolf]

NOBODY packs out *hit

[Tin Man]

Tin, after many years, there is a huge amount of degradation of the trail, the areas surrounding it, and more is coming. That's pretty obvious, particularly in the heaviest use areas. Unless you just want it to be a theme park, it's time for us to do more. If you want to ignore this topic, that's up to you. But there is a problem, and if you don't want to be part of the solution, that's up to you.

TW

Weasy, I don't ignore issues where they exist. But you ignore the issues I raised, so enough debating already. I doubt your arguments have won any converts, so take your poo elsewhere it it pleases you and let our poo degrade in peace.

[eventidecu]

Yea Weasel, aka "droopy drawers" thats TMI for sure, LOL. Kind of re defines the question, "got any extra power bars" in your pack a whole new meaning. LOL

[Bearpaw]

Are the backcountry experts at NOLS and elsewhere totally wrong when they view backcountry sanitation as a major problem and drain on resources?

Weasel, I AM one of those backcountry experts from NOLS. I was an instructor with them from 2001-2003 and know Soft Paths quite well. However, when backpacking in the massive majority of locales, "poo-packing" is NOT encouraged. On courses in Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Utah, Nevada, and Oregon, we never bagged our feces. It is viewed as an extreme which is unnecessary for the remote areas we visit. Carrying a bag of feces would be so potentially unsanitary, not to mention detrimental to morale of those carrying it along with a great deal of gear weight and (Heaven forbid) FOOD, that it is absolutely discouraged in NOLS accepted field practices for foot-mobile courses.

I HAVE seen "groovers", large thick plastic tanks like 5-gallon fuel cans, used on river courses where waste is deposited, the TP and feces are then sealed up in the groover, and then it is transported in one of the rafts. I have also used groovers on caving courses where we are essentially car-camping near a cave complex in Utah or Nevada. Again, the groovers are sealed and carried in a vehicle, not on someone's person.

As for TP, we get around that by using "natural TP" like western pine combs, rocks, snow, etc, and dispose of this in the same cathole we defecated in.

We ask students to urinate on rocks or bare ground rather than vegetation if possible because the salt encourages critters to eat that particular piece of vegetation and they begin to view humans as salt factories, not because urine (which is sterile) is an environmental contaminant. Some states (like Colorado) actually request paddlers urinate IN the river on some popular rafting sections to avoid undue damage to the little bit of vegetation which grows on the relatively arid banks.

The only time I have heard of any one on foot "blue-bagging" was on winter courses when the snow is too deep or ground too frozen to allow digging a cathole. The feces would then be bagged and carried in a sled, separated from any food items. Never in a pack or on somebody's person.

There are LNT options for sanitation in MANY environments (just as there are variable bear-proofing techniques, campsite layout, etc) and the specifics are designed for that particular course, in that area, using such and such type of travel, at a certain time of year. In temperate weather, there are VERY few places where poop-packing is necessary or even beneficial. The only purpose served is to spread disease, use more sewage systems requiring fossil fuels to power, use more plastics, and to make oneself feel superior because they went to the extreme(ly unnecessary) act of packing their own leavings.

[Tin Man]

There are LNT options for sanitation in MANY environments (just as there are variable bear-proofing techniques, campsite layout, etc) and the specifics are designed for that particular course, in that area, using such and such type of travel, at a certain time of year. In temperate weather, there are VERY few places where poop-packing is necessary or even beneficial. The only purpose served is to spread disease, use more sewage systems requiring fossil fuels to power, use more plastics, and to make oneself feel superior because they went to the extreme(ly unnecessary) act of packing their own leavings.

Bearpaw,

Awesome post. Thank you for taking the time to share your considerable knowledge gained from experience, training and participation versus reading some science paper somewhere and only reporting the parts you like. The last paragraph (repeated here) gets to my argument regarding the consequences of packing. The last sentence is particular telling. Thanks again.

[The Weasel]

Weasel, I AM one of those backcountry experts from NOLS. I was an instructor with them from 2001-2003 and know Soft Paths quite well. However, when backpacking in the massive majority of locales, "poo-packing" is NOT encouraged. On courses in Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Utah, Nevada, and Oregon, we never bagged our feces. It is viewed as an extreme which is unnecessary for the remote areas we visit. Carrying a bag of feces would be so potentially unsanitary, not to mention detrimental to morale of those carrying it along with a great deal of gear weight and (Heaven forbid) FOOD, that it is absolutely discouraged in NOLS accepted field practices for foot-mobile courses.

I HAVE seen "groovers", large thick plastic tanks like 5-gallon fuel cans, used on river courses where waste is deposited, the TP and feces are then sealed up in the groover, and then it is transported in one of the rafts. I have also used groovers on caving courses where we are essentially car-camping near a cave complex in Utah or Nevada. Again, the groovers are sealed and carried in a vehicle, not on someone's person.

As for TP, we get around that by using "natural TP" like western pine combs, rocks, snow, etc, and dispose of this in the same cathole we defecated in.

We ask students to urinate on rocks or bare ground rather than vegetation if possible because the salt encourages critters to eat that particular piece of vegetation and they begin to view humans as salt factories, not because urine (which is sterile) is an environmental contaminant. Some states (like Colorado) actually request paddlers urinate IN the river on some popular rafting sections to avoid undue damage to the little bit of vegetation which grows on the relatively arid banks.

The only time I have heard of any one on foot "blue-bagging" was on winter courses when the snow is too deep or ground too frozen to allow digging a cathole. The feces would then be bagged and carried in a sled, separated from any food items. Never in a pack or on somebody's person.

There are LNT options for sanitation in MANY environments (just as there are variable bear-proofing techniques, campsite layout, etc) and the specifics are designed for that particular course, in that area, using such and such type of travel, at a certain time of year. In temperate weather, there are VERY few places where poop-packing is necessary or even beneficial. The only purpose served is to spread disease, use more sewage systems requiring fossil fuels to power, use more plastics, and to make oneself feel superior because they went to the extreme(ly unnecessary) act of packing their own leavings.

Bear, thanks for the post. Unlike most so far, you (a) have some background on the issue, and (b) pretty much most of what you say I agree with, in that you're far more careful with human waste than most.

That said, I think there are a lot more places than you do - you don't have to agree with me, or I you, to share differences of opinion - that are adversely affected, along the AT and away from it. I'll give some examples; tell me where we differ and if we agree at all:

-- Ridges above tree line.
-- Trails where soil is only thin on rock
-- Saturated soils
-- Shelter areas with large 'poop fields'

As for 'using more fossil fuels' and 'plastics', I'm not sure how much of an impact 'packouts' are in that way. What are your feelings about the fact that feces just doesn't decompose as fast (if at all) as people seem to think, and that even when it does, toxic components (disease causing bacteria) do not die off as fast as many think?

TW

[ChinMusic]

The only purpose served is to spread disease, use more sewage systems requiring fossil fuels to power, use more plastics, and to make oneself feel superior because they went to the extreme(ly unnecessary) act of packing their own leavings.
Thanks for your post. It was pretty much what I expected.

[Bearpaw]

That said, I think there are a lot more places than you do - you don't have to agree with me, or I you, to share differences of opinion - that are adversely affected, along the AT and away from it. I'll give some examples; tell me where we differ and if we agree at all:

-- Ridges above tree line.
-- Trails where soil is only thin on rock
-- Saturated soils
-- Shelter areas with large 'poop fields'

What are your feelings about the fact that feces just doesn't decompose as fast (if at all) as people seem to think, and that even when it does, toxic components (disease causing bacteria) do not die off as fast as many think?

TW

OK, one point at a time:

Ridges above timberline - Generally best to avoid defecating. In some areas, there may still be sufficient soil, but since I make it a point not to camp in these exposed areas (thunderstorms above treeline are BAD juju), it's not generally a problem. The only extended stretches I can think of on the AT would be the Whites and Katahdin itself. The longest of these stretches between facilities (like huts) is about five miles. A bit of planning prevents the need to drop trou in these areas. Out west I know there often ARE tremendous resources put to use to maintain high-altitude privies.

Trails where soil is thin over rock - This happens, no doubt. But often by moving a few feet, I can find an area where I can find 4-6 inches of soil. Places where the trail tread is eroded to rock, like the Smokies, still offer sufficient soil, as well as cover from others' eyes a few dozen yards off the trail. In the aforementioned areas above timberline, walk on....

Saturated soils - This goes back to taking care of business 200 feet away from water sources. Walk a bit further to do your business.

Shelter areas with large "poop fields" - I agree with you when there are white TP "poop flags". This is definitely a problem. The question is "Were people actually burying their feces and TP or just leaving it on the surface?" I've found that using minimal TP or natural TP, mixing the feces carefully with some of the soil I've dug up, replacing and carefully packing it, then recovering the impacted area with leaves, pine needles, and other duff DOES prevent animals from digging in most cases. But in the case of heavily impacted shelter areas, a privy is the logical answer.

"Travel and camp on durable surfaces" is a hallmark of LNT. If you have created the durable surface of a trail, then the durable camp of a shelter to concentrate impact, why not create the durable cathole of a privy? Or you could do what I do and significantly spread impact by hiking a half mile or mile or so, getting off the trail to remain hidden, and dig a cathole in an area where trail hikers are NOT going to go or camp. You've just eliminated the need for the heavy poop concentration around shelters, spread impact, and not had to worry about someone from the shelter being exposed to your full moon.

As for rate of decomposition, in moist areas with organic soil, it really should be quite fast. It certainly is the areas where feces is routinely used in agriculture. I think slow decomposition is much more an issue when buried too deep in mineral soil or in areas where organic soil has eroded away and only mineral soil remains.

As for disease-carrying bacteria, there would have to be some tremendously extenuating circumstances for me to intentionally carry them in my pack.:eek: With toilet paper, carefully folded over and double-bagged, I have done this in the desert once. As for feces, I've never done it, and certainly hope I never have to.;)

[Bearpaw]

WOW, I can't believe I wrote this much s**t about s**t!!:o

[Lone Wolf]

nobody packs out *hit

[Montego]

WOW, I can't believe I wrote this much s**t about s**t!!:o

I know it can be a s**ty job, but someone had to do it :D

[Tin Man]

WOW, I can't believe I wrote this much s**t about s**t!!:o


I know it can be a s**ty job, but someone had to do it :D

Indeed. Nice job Bearpaw. Saved me from having to tell weasy to go *hit in his hat. :D

Weasy, I am sorry, I really don't mean to be harsh. I just don't understand where you get some of this *hit. Step in a cathole or something?

[gold bond]

Who cut the cheese...who cut the cheese....I'm not adverse to learnin' but why are my eye's a burnin....

[whitefoot_hp]

the next idea from the left field of LNT will be bringing along your own oxygen tanks and collecting your exhaled co2 in seperate tanks, so as not to throw off the 'natural' order of things.

[The Weasel]

Indeed. Nice job Bearpaw. Saved me from having to tell weasy to go *hit in his hat. :D

Weasy, I am sorry, I really don't mean to be harsh. I just don't understand where you get some of this *hit. Step in a cathole or something?

Tin, some people have thoughts here that you may not agree with, and the same for me. They have ideas you may not find productive, and perhaps some of yours aren't perfect. But this is one I have an opinion about, and perhaps there is some merit in it, perhaps more.

But rather than just disagree, you've consistently made it personal. I've resisted responding in kind. "Go $hit in his hat" isn't exactly something that you "don't mean to be harsh." It's harsh.

I've seen things you haven't, or some things I've seen have affected me differently. I'm not here to tell you that you're full of it. Perhaps this is what FD and others are concerned about with the possible elimination of the "Politics" forums: That people will just be nasty for no reason other than it's cheap and easy.

Disagree, but there is no call for the things you've said.

TW

[Lone Wolf]

tin, you must apologize. you're FOS and acting like a POS :cool:

[whitefoot_hp]

Tin, some people have thoughts here that you may not agree with, and the same for me. They have ideas you may not find productive, and perhaps some of yours aren't perfect. But this is one I have an opinion about, and perhaps there is some merit in it, perhaps more.

But rather than just disagree, you've consistently made it personal. I've resisted responding in kind. "Go $hit in his hat" isn't exactly something that you "don't mean to be harsh." It's harsh.

I've seen things you haven't, or some things I've seen have affected me differently. I'm not here to tell you that you're full of it. Perhaps this is what FD and others are concerned about with the possible elimination of the "Politics" forums: That people will just be nasty for no reason other than it's cheap and easy.

Disagree, but there is no call for the things you've said.

TW
dont worry weasel. the world is full of weak minds, and when weak minds are challenged, they get mad. if they cant argue with your ideas in a content based fashion, and many can't, they will resort to ad hominem attacks simply to ease the pain that their own weakness brings upon their fragile ego.

[Heater]

Wankity Wank Wank Wank. :rolleyes:

[The Weasel]

dont worry weasel. the world is full of weak minds, and when weak minds are challenged, they get mad. if they cant argue with your ideas in a content based fashion, and many can't, they will resort to ad hominem attacks simply to ease the pain that their own weakness brings upon their fragile ego.

Lawyers know this White. Thanks for noting it, though.

TW

[Lone Wolf]

dont worry weasel. the world is full of weak minds, and when weak minds are challenged, they get mad. if they cant argue with your ideas in a content based fashion, and many can't, they will resort to ad hominem attacks simply to ease the pain that their own weakness brings upon their fragile ego.

packing out **** from millions of acres of woods is moronic. anybody that does that needs help.

[Tin Man]

tin, you must apologize. you're FOS and acting like a POS :cool:

I apologize for not using more smilies. I don't take a crap, I leave it. :D

[Tin Man]

dont worry weasel. the world is full of weak minds, and when weak minds are challenged, they get mad. if they cant argue with your ideas in a content based fashion, and many can't, they will resort to ad hominem attacks simply to ease the pain that their own weakness brings upon their fragile ego.

The only weak minds and fragile egos belong to the one's that whine and don't answer the valid questions I raised. Bearpaw jumped in and did it for him. I merely offered the one who whines an alternative way for him to carry it out for when his pack filled up. :D Sorry, uncalled for. Where do I send the single malt? :rolleyes:

[ed bell]

I just checked out the poll #'s. Let me get this straight, several poll responders pack out TP, whatsit AND urine? URINE? That has got to be a joke.

[Tin Man]

I just checked out the poll #'s. Let me get this straight, several poll responders pack out TP, whatsit AND urine? URINE? That has got to be a joke.

The whole thread is a joke. Only a few don't get it. :D

[The Weasel]

The only weak minds and fragile egos belong to the one's that whine and don't answer the valid questions I raised. Bearpaw jumped in and did it for him. I merely offered the one who whines an alternative way for him to carry it out for when his pack filled up. :D Sorry, uncalled for. Where do I send the single malt? :rolleyes:

If the Malt is for me, Tin (Sassenach always call it "single malt" but Scots know that's redundant), you don't send it, you bring it, and I respond with as much hospitality as possible. If it's for someone else, I hope they know its beauty.

TW

[Terry7]

I just hold it all in till I get to town.

[Tin Man]

If the Malt is for me, Tin (Sassenach always call it "single malt" but Scots know that's redundant), you don't send it, you bring it, and I respond with as much hospitality as possible. If it's for someone else, I hope they know its beauty.

TW

OK I will bring it, the next time you are on the east coast or I go to the left coast. Maybe Jack would join us and we can have a group hug. I would suggest a hiking trip, but, um, no offense intended, it sounds like you give a new definition to, "hey, you stink". ;)

[Tennaseevol]

Weasel, do you give the scouts you lead the option to pack it out or dig a CH? Just curious.

-Tenn