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Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-20-2008, 12:36
Poll coming

Appalachian Tater
02-20-2008, 12:42
Maybe you should define "trail magic".

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-20-2008, 12:47
I'm going to leave the definition of trail magic to the voters. I personally don't consider some of the huge organized feeds to be trail magic, but I know many do. I don't consider donations to hostels to be trail magic, but I know some others do. I don't consider doing trail maintenance to be trail magic, but I know some do.

Vote according to whatever you personally feel is trail magic.

jlb2012
02-20-2008, 12:49
Should have a line for "I do trail magic without planning"

Alligator
02-20-2008, 12:50
Somebody voted yes trail magic is good and no it is bad. 'Fess up.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-20-2008, 12:51
Somebody voted yes trail magic is good and no it is bad. 'Fess up.Mixed feelings are welcome in the tread, but I do hope the voter will explain.

DesertMTB
02-20-2008, 12:56
I especially like trail magic in the form of adult beverages

Appalachian Tater
02-20-2008, 12:56
Somebody voted yes trail magic is good and no it is bad. 'Fess up.

Me. Some trail magic is good, some is bad, multiple votes allowed. I have seen all kinds of garbage and food along with burning coals left behind to jugs of water tied to a tree in a long dry stretch. Campers and tents on top of a mountain to provide pancakes and a family giving a muddy, wet hiker a ride into town in a storm in their Lexus. People baiting religious traps with food and a one-man hostel on church grounds.

hobojoe
02-20-2008, 12:58
Before the naysayers jump in, I just want to say that there is nothing wrong with doing something nice for someone you have never met before. If more people had this outlook the world would be a better place. Hold the door open for someone, say hello to a stranger on the street, help someon in need. Love not fear!

Alligator
02-20-2008, 13:00
Haha good answer Tater. Just checking.

The Weasel
02-20-2008, 13:00
In the "new subscription" thread, a little drift led to the following:

Originally Posted by The Weasel http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=543366#post543366)
Minn -

TM for newbies isn't a bad thing. It helps support them at a time when they need it as much as they will later, in different ways. Thanks for doing so.

TW

no hiker ever NEEDS trail magic

Lone Wolf

-----

I rather think Trail Magic is essential, as long as it's not overdone. I'll leave aside times when it is critical, such as water caches by roads when water supplies are slim on the trail ahead. But other times, especially when you are new to long distance hiking - and particularly, alone - it can restore your spirits and make you feel far less lonely. That doesn't mean necessarily that the huge feasts are the best idea (but they're not bad, as long as there isn't some hidden agenda behind them, in which case, they're intrusive, I think). Sometimes it's just someone stopping by the trail at a road crossing and offering you a cold soda. Other times it might be finding a pack of "wipes" to clean your face a bit. Ice water.

Mainly, what TM does is provide a bit of direct or indirect human contact that says, "What you're doing is cool. Don't stop doing it." That kind of approval can make the next miles far easier, and stay in your mind even longer. And for "newbies", it can make all the difference between saying, "Ah, screw it. I'm going home" and "Yeah, this is neat, I'm going to keep going."

TW

emerald
02-20-2008, 13:01
Spontaneous acts of kindness are good, but without specifying what's meant by trail magic I can't and won't answer, nor will the results mean anything.:-?

Gray Blazer
02-20-2008, 13:03
Is MS in the house? I want to hear about the TM you did in GA last month. You briefly mentioned it in the new subscriptions thread. Did you post a report here on WB? I'm interested in hearing about it. PM me if necessary. I had the best time of my life doing TM (for all hikers who showed).The downside is the lame negative comments from a few people on this website.

emerald
02-20-2008, 13:10
I'll leave aside times when it [trail magic] is critical, such as water caches by roads when water supplies are slim on the trail ahead.

It's been many years since my traditional A.T. through hike, but I don't recall the need for any assistance obtaining water. I'd add I believe it was a drier than normal year too.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-20-2008, 13:12
Spontaneous acts of kindness that benefit others are good, but without specifying what's meant by trail magic I can't and won't answer, nor will the results mean anything.:-?Feel free to discuss this in the thread - I started the poll to discuss these sorts of issues.

hobojoe
02-20-2008, 13:18
Trail magic (to me) can be anything from the perfect sunset to the simple kindness of a stranger to stimulating conversation to good friends to the feeling you get when you wake in the woods to the majesty of nature. It's all a gift, from the universe to you.

Appalachian Tater
02-20-2008, 13:21
Trail magic (to me) can be anything from the perfect sunset to the simple kindness of a stranger to stimulating conversation to good friends to the feeling you get when you wake in the woods to the majesty of nature. It's all a gift, from the universe to you.What, if anything, would you consider to NOT be "trail magic"?

minnesotasmith
02-20-2008, 13:22
Is MS in the house? I want to hear about the TM you did in GA last month. You briefly mentioned it in the new subscriptions thread. Did you post a report here on WB? I'm interested in hearing about it. PM me if necessary. I had the best time of my life doing TM (for all hikers who showed).The downside is the lame negative comments from a few people on this website.

I did say this on another thread, only as a defense against being called so cheap I was bad for the Trail.

"Only about half of it was food. The rest was stuff that A) will be useful for more than one season of hikers, and B) was in part for the spirit, not the gut."

I sent large care packages to all three primary Georgia AT hostel that contained 2-4 different categories of stuff, depending on the unique characteristics of the destination. They arrived between Feb. 13-14. I called all three hostels and found that A) they did arrive, and B) were accepted enthusiastically and without reservation as very appropriate to help out passing hikers. When I called the Blueberry Patch to check on safe arrival, I was told me it was the largest TM care package they'd ever received.

About half a dozen WhiteBlaze members I've remained fairly close to know the full story in detail.

I'll let word from the Trail percolate up as to how helpful the TM I did was without any more promoting, other than to say I intend to do still more later this year.

emerald
02-20-2008, 13:30
Feel free to discuss this in the thread - I started the poll to discuss these sorts of issues.

How is abandoning property any different from littering? I don't make a distinction. I wonder and doubt whether applicable laws do?

Doesn't ATC already have a position on this issue? Maybe someone should post their position.

max patch
02-20-2008, 13:33
It's been many years since my traditional A.T. through hike, but I don't recall the need for any assistance obtaining water. I'd add I believe it was a drier than normal year too.

I hiked in a so called "dry year" myself and I never had any problems getting water. Its called "planning ahead" and not "hoping" that someone is going to leave a jug of water by the side of the road.

Truth be told, most "pre-planned" trail magic is for the ego of the giver, not for the benefit of the receiver.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-20-2008, 13:39
How is abandoning property any different from littering? I don't make a distinction. I wonder and doubt whether applicable laws do?

Doesn't ATC already have a position on this issue? Maybe someone should post their position.So you saying that you believe unattended trail magic (water / other beverage caches or food caches) are bad for the trail - do you feel the same about someone sitting at road-crossing or clearing with a cooler or food or other sorts of treats for hikers?

hobojoe
02-20-2008, 13:39
What, if anything, would you consider to NOT be "trail magic"?
Trail slight of hand?

Appalachian Tater
02-20-2008, 13:42
By request, from the ATC:

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.3075131/k.29C2/TrailMagic.htm

Trail Magic

The origins of trail magic

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/Cowhouse%20Philip%20Jordan.jpg

The term “trail magic” was coined by thru-hikers to describe small, unexpected, remarkable events that lifted a hiker’s spirits and inspired awe or gratitude. “Trail magic” came in two forms: The magic created by nature, and the magic created by the kindness of strangers. Nature might offer magic in the glimpse of a black bear and her cubs or a hail storm that held off until the safety of a shelter was reached. Acts of kindness by strangers might include a family in a state park offering to share its picnic with a passing hiker, or a trail neighbor handing out cookies to hikers on a roadwalk.

The expansion of trail magic

For thru-hikers, trail magic is such a memorable part of the A.T. experience that they often return to the Trail and create more “magic” for the next year’s thru-hikers, often by handing out food and drinks or leaving it along the Trail. In time, doing trail magic has become popular with those who admire thru-hikers and want to hear their stories. Offerings have expanded from small picnics to multi-day “feeds.”

Unintended consequences of trail magic

As trail magic has changed in size and scope, some unintended consequences have occurred. Some of the “magic” enjoyed by thru-hikers later ends up as unsightly trash to be cleaned up and carried out by volunteer trail maintainers or other hikers. Food left unattended creates the possibility for harming or habituating wildlife. Eventually, a hiker may come to expect trail magic or may encounter it so frequently that it ceases to be meaningful. And, the plastic cooler or party that is a welcome sight for some, may, for others, detract from the sense of remoteness and self-sufficiency that the Appalachian Trail was created to provide.

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/Cookie%20Lady-2.jpg

The best way to do trail magic

Keep it small. Check with the land-managing agency to find out what regulations apply, or hold your activity away from the Trail. Be sure to remove any trash and leftovers. For more tips, go to our Suggestions for Providing Trail Magic (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/Trail%20Magic%20Suggestions8-3-07.pdf), developed by ATC with input from hikers, “trail angels,” volunteers, Leave No Trace experts, and recreation ecologists.
Better yet, do the ultimate trail magic: Become an A.T. volunteer.

Ultimate Trail Magic

The magic that is the Appalachian Trail would not exist without the work of volunteers. Essentially, they create the experience of the Trail and are the ultimate “trail angels.” Volunteers give up their weekends and vacations year-round to make sure the A.T. footpath is in good shape and its surrounding wild and pastoral lands are protected from an increasing number of threats. The Trail and its corridor lands require many hours of volunteer work, and more help is always needed. The best way to help preserve and enhance the A.T. experience for current and future hikers is to become a volunteer (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/volunteer).

hobojoe
02-20-2008, 13:44
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Hikers to trail magic is as birds to a feeder?
I hope not.

emerald
02-20-2008, 13:45
I hiked in a so called "dry year" myself and I never had any problems getting water. Its called "planning ahead" and not "hoping" that someone is going to leave a jug of water by the side of the road.

Sometimes that "hoped for" jug or whatever else isn't there and the anticipation leads to dissatisfaction, resentment or some other form of unhappiness. It's better to be prepared, expect nothing and be pleasantly surprised.

The Weasel
02-20-2008, 13:47
It's been many years since my traditional A.T. through hike, but I don't recall the need for any assistance obtaining water. I'd add I believe it was a drier than normal year too.

SOG -

I had a couple of places where it made a difference, but I was primarily speaking more of other trails, such as parts of the southern PCT.

TW

Footslogger
02-20-2008, 13:47
I was a slow (relatively speaking) hiker in 2003. By the time I got to the "cooler" or the pre-announced (by a southbounder) stash of sodas in a stream they were generally gone. Not sour grapes on my part ...I'm just sayin.

Yes, I did get few cold sodas and candy bars but by far though, the most memorable "trail magic" (if you can call it that) were the random acts of kindness shown to me directly during my thru. These were spontaneous things that non-hikers did out of genuine concern and good nature.

My wife and I have had the opportunity to go back and hike sections of the AT over the past few years and typically near the end of those trips we spent an afternoon along side the road at a trail crossing and offered hikers a cold soda or candy bar. But if I lived somewhere along the trail, I think I would be more inclined to return the favors (those random acts of kindness mentioned earlier) shown to me by total strangers during my thru.

'Slogger

emerald
02-20-2008, 13:56
SOG -

I had a couple of places where it made a difference, but I was primarily speaking more of other trails, such as parts of the southern PCT.

TW

I understand there wouldn't be drinking water otherwise on some portions of the PCT. I thought you were referring primarily to other trails.

What I'd hoped to avoid is leading some readers unfamiliar with the A.T. to think providing drinking water is essential under ordinary conditions.

The Weasel
02-20-2008, 13:57
I understand there wouldn't be drinking water otherwise on some portions of the PCT. I thought you were referring primarily to other trails.

I had hoped to avoid leading some readers unfamiliar with the A.T. to think providing drinking water is essential under ordinary conditions.

I agree with you fully. But cold water is always appreciated, and it's something that can be dispensed from a jug, a brief chat, and no litter results.

TW

Tinker
02-20-2008, 14:02
Trail magic is wonderful.

Don't take it for granted.

Do unto others............

warraghiyagey
02-20-2008, 14:02
I am always grateful for trail magic and the folks who take their time to think of the hikers in such a way - and they inspire me to do the same.:sun
No definition needed. If you experience it you know exactly what it is.:)

minnesotasmith
02-20-2008, 14:17
All they have to do take a hiker's garbage, refill his water containers (with potable, not neccessarily cold) with water, and say an encouraging day, and you'll have made his entire day. (Knowing the latest weather forecast, or something about trail conditions ahead, so you could inform him, wouldn't hurt, either.)

emerald
02-20-2008, 14:25
So you saying that you believe unattended trail magic (water / other beverage caches or food caches) are bad for the trail - do you feel the same about someone sitting at road-crossing or clearing with a cooler or food or other sorts of treats for hikers?

Sorry for the delay in responding. I'm experiencing difficulties with my dial-up connection today.

I believe unattended beverage and food caches are littering whether they meet the prevailing legal definition or not. Canned beverages in streams and coolers are unnatural and don't belong in the backcountry.

The Appalachian Trail is a footpath for those who seek fellowship with the wilderness, not a footpath for those who seek a handout. However, if you happen to meet someone by chance on the A.T. who invites you to a picnic where picnicking is permitted and won't infringe upon the experience of others, you have just experienced one form of trail magic.:)

jesse
02-20-2008, 14:28
1. Do not leave anything unattended
2. Do not leave sodas, or beer in streams.
3. Limit to road crossings. Stay away from campsites.

gungho
02-20-2008, 14:29
I totally agree,trail magic may seem like nothing to you,but can make a world of difference to someone else. We left jugs of water all along the secton between walter gap and fontana. But we did return a few weeks later to pack out the empty bottles. :)

Pedaling Fool
02-20-2008, 14:37
I'm not sure how to answer the poll, still mulling. It's kind of asking if guns are bad. I think not, only people are bad. "Trail Magic", at least the way it's evolved (Let's face it, TM is not what it was when the term was coined) is a negative thing in my view, but not because of the concept, rather people's use/abuse of this thing called TM. Kind of like how TD has evolved, I've only been to one, so I'm not an expert here, but I've heard/read a lot about how it was back in "The Day".

minnesotasmith
02-20-2008, 14:39
Is seriously needed in NY, and perhaps some of NJ/eastern PA as well. This is due to a major mistake in the Trail route there, where the AT has been dragged out of the cooler, more reliably supplied with natural water mountains, down into the foothills and lowlands. Trail angel water caches were a godsend for me (thank you, Tuxedo Trail Club) when I hiked through there in July-August of 2006, and I carried more water (like 5+ liters at times) than the vast majority of hikers.

Just as for the PCT, trail angel water caches along that stretch should NOT be considered negatively by anyone.

the goat
02-20-2008, 14:46
Is seriously needed in NY, and perhaps some of NJ/eastern PA as well. This is due to a major mistake in the Trail route there, where the AT has been dragged out of the cooler, more reliably supplied with natural water mountains, down into the foothills and lowlands. Trail angel water caches were a godsend for me (thank you, Tuxedo Trail Club) when I hiked through there in July-August of 2006, and I carried more water (like 5+ liters at times) than the vast majority of hikers.

Just as for the PCT, trail angel water caches along that stretch should NOT be considered negatively by anyone.

unlike the PCT, water caches are not needed on the AT, even in NY & NJ.

Pedaling Fool
02-20-2008, 14:50
Is seriously needed in NY, and perhaps some of NJ/eastern PA as well. This is due to a major mistake in the Trail route there, where the AT has been dragged out of the cooler, more reliably supplied with natural water mountains, down into the foothills and lowlands. Trail angel water caches were a godsend for me (thank you, Tuxedo Trail Club) when I hiked through there in July-August of 2006, and I carried more water (like 5+ liters at times) than the vast majority of hikers.

Just as for the PCT, trail angel water caches along that stretch should NOT be considered negatively by anyone.
"Needed" or desired? For someone who is so "conservative" you seem to want a lot of support from others for a journey you decieded to take. I don't get it. I'm missing something here.

minnesotasmith
02-20-2008, 14:50
unlike the PCT, water caches are not needed on the AT, even in NY & NJ.

They were in summer 2006. Did you hike those areas then?

minnesotasmith
02-20-2008, 14:53
"Needed" or desired? For someone who is so "conservative" you seem to want a lot of support from others for a journey you decieded to take. I don't get it. I'm missing something here.

I only specifically advocate water caches in those areas until the low-altitude routing problem for that section of Trail is fixed. I don't have anything against water caching in general, not seeing how a water jug will attract rodents/bears/raccoons, but would not care either way once that's done.

Lone Wolf
02-20-2008, 14:55
me and Pirate are gonna set up at Unicoi gap this year with a cooler and a grill and as hikers come through we'll ask them if they're thru-hiking and if they say yes we'll say have a nice hike. we'll just feed section hikers

hobojoe
02-20-2008, 14:56
me and Pirate are gonna set up at Unicoi gap this year with a cooler and a grill and as hikers come through we'll ask them if they're thru-hiking and if they say yes we'll say have a nice hike. we'll just feed section hikers
Why not just feed the people in the cars driving by?

Pedaling Fool
02-20-2008, 14:57
I only specifically advocate water caches in those areas until the low-altitude routing problem for that section of Trail is fixed. I don't have anything against water caching in general, not seeing how a water jug will attract rodents/bears/raccoons, but would not care either way once that's done.
Didn't answer my question, which had nothing to do with discarded bottles. You are asking, almost demanding people support you for a journey that you took upon yourself. I was in NJ/NY in '06 and did not drink from any cache, so it is not "NEEDED".

Lone Wolf
02-20-2008, 14:58
that makes no sense

A-Train
02-20-2008, 15:03
07' was one of the driest years ever out west, and the desert was particularly arid. I tried to rarely ever use water caches and never rely on them. Usually this required carrying an extra litre or two, and generally I carried around 3-4 on average.

I can't imagine ever needing that much water anywhere on the AT, even in Harriman and other drier places, like in PA. Sorry Smith, but if you weren't able to plan ahead with the various off-trail establishments, and stores and on-trail pumps/sources, well, you didn't hone your skills from Georgia very well.

emerald
02-20-2008, 15:08
When drinking from jugs where a seal is not broken, a hiker risks drinking unsafe water. I'd rather drink from protected sources and tested sources where natural sources fail or are otherwise unsatisfactory.

There are some places where it might be desirable for better sources to be developed and it doesn't require moving the A.T.:p

minnesotasmith
02-20-2008, 15:15
Sorry Smith, but if you weren't able to plan ahead with the various off-trail establishments, and stores and on-trail pumps/sources, well, you didn't hone your skills from Georgia very well.

I finished my thruhike successfully, hiking every mile of the AT in a single calendar year. I think that's evidence I learned enough to get by.

When I would camel up at breakfast to the tune of 2 liters beyond what I would have drunk in any event with breakfast, carried as many as 5 additional liters with me, and still ran out before hitting the next natural water source (or would have, without rationing), that's an area that was pretty low on water at that time.

Sure, I'd have made it without water caches, but...

You didn't see the female hiker that was out of water (she carried 2-3 liters, not 5 like me in that stretch) and suffering from advanced dehydration. We're talking poor balance, massive headaches, and the beginning of tunnel vision. I gave her all of the almost 2 liters I had left, and walked with her the 5 miles to the next water source. So, try to understand if I don't think that some kind of hypothetical "purity" should keep kindhearted locals from being allowed to set out water jugs that aren't even going to attract undesirable wildlife attention, especially in such sections.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-20-2008, 15:16
....and it doesn't require moving the A.T.:p::: Dino runs and hides at mere mention of this topic :D :::

emerald
02-20-2008, 15:19
Part of planning an A.T. hike involves realizing is does get dry in the middle states in summer. Expect at least the less-reliable springs to be dry, especially if you through hike southbound.

Talk to hikers travelling in the opposite direction. I'm beginning to believe this simple concept is a lost art.

Some locals will go out of their way to help you. Learn to figure out which ones can be relied upon.

max patch
02-20-2008, 15:20
With proper planning water does not have to left at road crossings.

And in any event, too many nut jobs out there to risk drinking from a jug that isn't factory sealed.

minnesotasmith
02-20-2008, 15:20
When drinking from jugs where a seal is not broken, a hiker risks drinking unsafe water. I'd rather drink from protected sources and tested sources where natural sources fail or are otherwise unsatisfactory.

There are some places where it might be desirable for better sources to be developed and it doesn't require moving the A.T.:p

So, treat water you take from water caches. Worst-case, it's still likely to be better water than from ponds and lakes. And, water you have to treat still beats the heck out of no water at all. :)

emerald
02-20-2008, 15:21
::: Dino runs and hides at mere mention of this topic :D :::

I'm tempted to reply in Pennsylvania Dutch, but that's not allowed.;)

Pedaling Fool
02-20-2008, 15:25
Is seriously needed in NY, and perhaps some of NJ/eastern PA as well.....


I only specifically advocate water caches in those areas...


...So, try to understand if I don't think that some kind of hypothetical "purity" should keep kindhearted locals from being allowed to set out water jugs that aren't even going to attract undesirable wildlife attention, especially in such sections.
MS, you a funny guy.

emerald
02-20-2008, 15:26
So, treat water you take from water caches. Worst-case, it's still likely to be better water than from ponds and lakes. And, water you have to treat still beats the heck out of no water at all. :)

I remember drinking boiled Potomac River water. You're more likely than not right, but I wouldn't want to guarantee it. Still, I'm glad you made your point.

Phreak
02-20-2008, 15:34
me and Pirate are gonna set up at Unicoi gap this year with a cooler and a grill and as hikers come through we'll ask them if they're thru-hiking and if they say yes we'll say have a nice hike. we'll just feed section hikers

LOL - LW, you're a hoot!

whitefoot_hp
02-20-2008, 17:28
Sorry for the delay in responding. I'm experiencing difficulties with my dial-up connection today.

I believe unattended beverage and food caches are littering whether they meet the prevailing legal definition or not. Canned beverages in streams and coolers are unnatural and don't belong in the backcountry. is a road crossing, like a major highway, part of the back country??


The Appalachian Trail is a footpath for those who seek fellowship with the wilderness, not a footpath for those who seek a handout. However, if you happen to meet someone by chance on the A.T. who invites you to a picnic where picnicking is permitted and won't infringe upon the experience of others, you have just experienced one form of trail magic.:)
accepting nice things equals seeking a handout?

gungho
02-20-2008, 17:35
With proper planning water does not have to left at road crossings.

And in any event, too many nut jobs out there to risk drinking from a jug that isn't factory sealed.
I have often pondered the same concern.. If I came across jugs of water with the seal broken would I drink the water?? I would probably still treat it,I don't think anyone can say until they are faced with this situation.

All I know is this past year was so Dry,and water sources were so unreliable,that it was hard to properly prepare.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-20-2008, 17:48
I'm tempted to reply in Pennsylvania Dutch, but that's not allowed.;)::: Dino is afraid, very afraid :::
me and Pirate are gonna set up at Unicoi gap this year with a cooler and a grill and as hikers come through we'll ask them if they're thru-hiking and if they say yes we'll say have a nice hike. we'll just feed section hikersMy dearest solitary canine,

You are required to notify the Dino of when this event takes place so that she can come and observe the reaction of thru-hikers - purely for sociological research, of course.

Love,
Dino

PS - hug Gypsy for me

emerald
02-20-2008, 17:51
is a road crossing, like a major highway, part of the back country??

My answer to your question would depend upon the particulars. I find caches and feeds more objectionable the more remote or undeveloped the location where they're encountered. My expectations would be different depending upon the location.


accepting nice things equals seeking a handout?

No, there's a difference between seeking or expecting something and encountering it unexpectedly, then accepting what's offered with gratitude or politely declining it.

bfitz
02-20-2008, 17:54
If I do trail magic it isn't for hikers it's for me. I like meeting hikers for some strange reason. If I just hang out in the woods and try to talk to people they usually don't really stick around and get to know me. Especially thruhikers with a mission. But, generally speaking, beer and food is a lure nigh impossible to resist for a thruhiker.

emerald
02-20-2008, 17:55
::: Dino is afraid, very afraid :::

I couldn't post simply Why?

emerald
02-20-2008, 17:58
If I do trail magic it isn't for hikers it's for me. I like meeting hikers for some strange reason. If I just hang out in the woods and try to talk to people they usually don't really stick around and get to know me. Especially thruhikers with a mission. But, generally speaking, beer and food is a lure nigh impossible to resist for a thruhiker.

You mean it's a trap?:eek:

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-20-2008, 17:58
Moving the AT got mentioned and traumatized Dino is having flashbacks.
:::: Dino seen doing relaxation exercises and Lamaze breathing ::::
You mean it's a trap?:eek:There's a thru-hiker season? Maybe guns do belong on the AT :D

bfitz
02-20-2008, 18:01
You mean it's a trap?:eek:
Exactly! I've done "trail magic" or whatever you wanna call it while hiking myself. Just to get everyone socializing.

bfitz
02-20-2008, 18:03
Fire+beer+hotdogs+thruhikers=instant party.

MOWGLI
02-20-2008, 18:07
Is seriously needed in NY, and perhaps some of NJ/eastern PA as well. This is due to a major mistake in the Trail route there, where the AT has been dragged out of the cooler, more reliably supplied with natural water mountains, down into the foothills and lowlands.
Where should the trail have been routed, and how would you take hikers across the Hudson River? Please be specific.


(thank you, Tuxedo Trail Club)

I know the folks well who leave water at the East Mombasha Road crossing. Wonderful folks. I don't think there is a Tuxedo Trail Club though, unless it has formed in the past year.

bfitz
02-20-2008, 18:08
I must say the simple act of leaving water someplace where there is a drought or something is great trail magic.

emerald
02-20-2008, 18:16
Fire+beer+hotdogs+thruhikers=instant party.

You have a number of reagents there and you lack relative quantities. What catalyzes this reaction?

Dino is afraid when I suppress a desire to respond to her in Pennsylvania Dutch. She should be more fearful of your experiments.

emerald
02-20-2008, 18:20
I must say the simple act of leaving water someplace where there is a drought or something is great trail magic.

Unless you relied upon it and it wasn't there when you arrived. I'd think there would be better options that would be more reliable.

emerald
02-20-2008, 18:26
There's a thru-hiker season? Maybe guns do belong on the AT :D

Actually, there's an early season and a late season.;)

BR360
02-20-2008, 18:52
I rather think Trail Magic is essential,

TW

I disagree with your statement in whole. If trail magic is essential, then that means that individuals cannot complete the trail by themselves, under their own power, responsible for their well-being, fundamentally self-reliant.

Magic, by its nature, is mysterious, and the original spirit of the phrase "Trail Magic" was that nice "coincidences" would occur for a long-distance hiker.

These days it seems that Trail Magic" has been institutionalized. (I've net people with business cards that say they are "Trail Angels.") So people have come to depend on it?! That breeds "dependency," which seems antithetical to the concept of "going to the wilderness." (Let's not take this on the tangent that the AT isn't really wilderness; let's save that for another thread.)

While people are free to do what they want to do in terms of expecting or providing "Trail Magic" (so long as it doesn't violate the rights of others), I can see no manner in which undertaking an act of volitional recreation would therefore insinuate the "essential" (i.e. necessary) assistance of unknown others.

If someone feels that they cannot hike without Trail Magic, then I would tell them to grow up and get a life.

While I have provided assistance to other hikers unknown to me in the form of food, beverages, giving them a ride, or directions, if I felt obligated to provide this because it was "essential" for them to be able to complete the AT, then I would be more inclined to look on these people as beggars, and therefore far less deserving of help.

Just like the idiots who put rescuers in peril by not being prepared and yet intentionally getting in situations over their heads.

Gray Blazer
02-20-2008, 18:54
me and Pirate are gonna set up at Unicoi gap this year with a cooler and a grill and as hikers come through we'll ask them if they're thru-hiking and if they say yes we'll say have a nice hike. we'll just feed section hikers

You've got issues, brother. Let it go.

Gray Blazer
02-20-2008, 18:58
Fire+beer+hotdogs+thruhikers=instant party.
I like your M.O.

Almost There
02-20-2008, 19:17
me and Pirate are gonna set up at Unicoi gap this year with a cooler and a grill and as hikers come through we'll ask them if they're thru-hiking and if they say yes we'll say have a nice hike. we'll just feed section hikers


I'll bring the Fried Chicken like two years ago...and more beer can never have too much!:D I'll even throw a few steaks in for the three of us!

bfitz
02-20-2008, 19:26
You have a number of reagents there and you lack relative quantities. What catalyzes this reaction?

Dino is afraid when I suppress a desire to respond to her in Pennsylvania Dutch. She should be more fearful of your experiments.Does throwing a stick of dynamite into a pond to catch fish constitute an experiment? As long as there is more beer to add the reaction can be sustained indefinitely.

Unless you relied upon it and it wasn't there when you arrived. I'd think there would be better options that would be more reliable.Who said anything about relying? To rely on anything but your own preparedness is folly in any situation. But to reject providence is false pride.


I like your M.O.
Wait till you try my mustard and onions on one of my hot-dogs.

warraghiyagey
02-20-2008, 19:39
You've got issues, brother. Let it go.
It does seem like mis-placed angst, doesn't it?:-?

minnesotasmith
02-20-2008, 20:09
Where should the trail have been routed, and how would you take hikers across the Hudson River? Please be specific.



I know the folks well who leave water at the East Mombasha Road crossing. Wonderful folks. I don't think there is a Tuxedo Trail Club though, unless it has formed in the past year.

1) The Trail should be pulled back up into the mountains. Ever seen the diorama in the ATC Center at Harper's Ferry? You can see how after the N. end of the Shenandoah the AT's route goes astray WRT following the height of land, and only by VT is it truly back there. Running from Winchester VA to the Adirondacks in NE NY, bypassing the eastern half of PA, and all of NJ/CT/MA would be my ideal. At the very least, the AT route in NY should be pushed 50+ miles NW. This would make for a cooler, less buggy route that would be better-supplied with water from winter melt (as surface-water and groundwater).

Re the route over the Hudson: I have not looked to see specifically where there are other bridges crossing that river (the ATC will likely never get around to fixing this route issue, after all). However, there are surely numerous other river bridges further upstream, and the further upstream, the shorter and smaller they will be.

2) Tuxedo Trail Club... When I thruhiked in 2006, there was a sign indicating one or two of the largest trail magic water caches (like 25-30 one-gallon containers) were "Courtesy of the Tuxedo Trail Club", or some such. I saw references to them in shelter registers in NY shelters as well.

Rockhound
02-20-2008, 20:14
even when the trail magic is provided with alterior motives,(i read the term "religious traps" used) it is generally given in the spirit of kindness. this includes hostels run on donation or even charging a set price. this includes shuttles, outfitters, festivals (trail days / the long trail festival etc...), all the people you meet along the way, and basically any experience that helps make your journey a better one.

bfitz
02-20-2008, 20:17
The trail should be re-routed....through more towns! Good views should be taken into account too, but not at the expense of hitting streets or towns, or winding all over hades just to get them all.

Jack Tarlin
02-20-2008, 20:19
Right on, Bfitz!

God forbid a woods walk or climb every few days should interfere with your town experience! :D

ki0eh
02-20-2008, 21:02
Re the route over the Hudson: I have not looked to see specifically where there are other bridges crossing that river

My vote was for between Cohoes and Troy; see two choices on http://www.cdtcmpo.org/mowhudns.pdf

Lone Wolf
02-20-2008, 21:05
You've got issues, brother. Let it go.

you have no sense of humor. find one

Tin Man
02-20-2008, 21:11
Right on, Bfitz!

God forbid a woods walk or climb every few days should interfere with your town experience! :D

The AT pub crawl!

Tin Man
02-20-2008, 21:27
I took a soda from a cooler,
I took a beer from a brook,
I took a ride from a jeweler,
and now I am called a dirty crook.

I don't understand why many are miffed,
because I accept a simple gift,
it's not like anyone got stiffed,
or is trying to create a rift,
after all it's a simple gift.

warraghiyagey
02-20-2008, 21:29
Nice work TM. Did you write that?

Tin Man
02-20-2008, 21:36
Nice work TM. Did you write that?

Yep. Someone said "poetic justice" on the culture thread and I felt inspired. :)

Gray Blazer
02-20-2008, 21:43
you have no sense of humor. find one
Sensative? Admit it. You don't like organized TM. (Did I forget to put that little green smiley by my original post?)

Lone Wolf
02-20-2008, 21:45
Sensative? Admit it. You don't like organized TM. (Did I forget to put that little green smiley by my original post?)

organized feeds are in no way "trail magic"

bfitz
02-20-2008, 21:48
organized feeds are in no way "trail magic"The trail works it's magic in mysterious ways.

Gray Blazer
02-20-2008, 21:51
organized feeds are in no way "trail magic"
Not arguing. I agree with what you said in the past that a person who offers TM to only thrubees and tells sectioners to move on has no class (my words) or in other words it's just wrong. I like what Bfitz said about the instant party. I don't think he would uninvite certain people and neither would I.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-20-2008, 22:02
So, is it TM if it is only available to thru's? I would think that's more of a private party instead of magic.

Gray Blazer
02-20-2008, 22:11
So, is it TM if it is only available to thru's? I would think that's more of a private party instead of magic.
According to what I've read on WB a large percentage of thrubees in GA and NC/TN end up becoming sectioners anyway so how does a David Copperfield of the AT know who is what? I've also read on here (WB is my bible) that certain persons were denied TM and told it was because they weren't thrubees. To me, that's not right. A good friend of mine:rolleyes: did some TM and served everybody who came along the AT at Rocky Bald in NC. He's even got pics of sectioners enjoying the free food and friendship right here on this website.

dmax
02-20-2008, 22:40
does anybody remember "even steven"?

Pedaling Fool
02-20-2008, 22:59
So, is it TM if it is only available to thru's? I would think that's more of a private party instead of magic.
It's not TM if it's organized. It's just a feeding.

minnesotasmith
02-20-2008, 23:01
According to what I've read on WB a large percentage of thrubees in GA and NC/TN end up becoming sectioners anyway so how does a David Copperfield of the AT know who is what?

No way to tell ahead of time; even multiple repeats can bail due to injury, home emergency, illness, etc., while people who look doomed due to gear/fitness can get their acts together before being forced off the Trail.

I would never have had it cross my mind to ask any of the hostels I sent trail magic to 2 weeks ago to only offer it to thruhikers. If I was running a trail crossing barbecue, and some curious type in high heels within sight of their car stopped by, sure, I could see not feeding them, but any overnighter would be as welcome as a thru 50 miles from finishing.

fiddlehead
02-20-2008, 23:04
Why not trail magic? It makes the folks who give it feel good and it makes the ones who receive it feel good.
The problem is when we (some) start counting on it or demanding it.

Interesting, the Thai people are known as some of the kindest people in the world. Who knows why but a lot has to do with the Buddhist religion (i think) and the culture here consists of taking care of each other. Anyway, I was on a late evening climb of the highest mtn around here in southern phuket last week and it was partially on a road. AFter dark, almost every car stopped and asked if i was alright and did i need a ride.

it felt good to know that i was cared for even though i was just out for a jog and stayed at the top too long. I believe if i would have expected these actions and they did NOT happen, i would have not only been disappointed but perhaps mad at the local people. Not cool!

Ok, that's my 2 cents on trail magic: Don't expect it and if and when it happens you will be pleasantly surprised! And try giving it out sometime and see how that makes your heart warm.

rafe
02-20-2008, 23:05
According to what I've read on WB a large percentage of thrubees in GA and NC/TN end up becoming sectioners anyway so how does a David Copperfield of the AT know who is what? I've also read on here (WB is my bible) that certain persons were denied TM and told it was because they weren't thrubees. To me, that's not right. A good friend of mine:rolleyes: did some TM and served everybody who came along the AT at Rocky Bald in NC. He's even got pics of sectioners enjoying the free food and friendship right here on this website.

I've never been to a hiker feed. I've passed a few coolers with sodas in them, and jugs of water left at trailheads. I've availed myself to such treats with a clear conscience. :D

Pedaling Fool
02-20-2008, 23:15
Why not trail magic? It makes the folks who give it feel good and it makes the ones who receive it feel good.
The problem is when we (some) start counting on it or demanding it....
I think that too many people are starting to demand it. However, I agree that many good people provide and are benefited from "TM", I just can't get some sour memories out of my head from 2006. I have benifited from organized feeds, but after a while I got sick of them.

Dilemmas:datz

Footslogger
02-20-2008, 23:18
Wouldn't that be the pitts if hikers started to say that they refused to hike unless there was trail magic ??

'Slogger

Heater
02-20-2008, 23:29
I took a soda from a cooler,
I took a beer from a brook,
I took a ride from a jeweler,
and now I am called a dirty crook.

I don't understand why many are miffed,
because I accept a simple gift,
it's not like anyone got stiffed,
or is trying to create a rift,
after all it's a simple gift.

Dark and lonely on a summer's night.
Kill my landlord. Kill my landlord.
Watchdog barking. Do he bite?
Kill my landlord. Kill my landlord.
Slip in his window. Break his neck.
Then his house I start to wreck.
Got no reason. What the heck?
Kill my landlord. Kill my landlord.
C-I-L my land lord!

Murphy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X37m2AyuoKs)

Gray Blazer
02-20-2008, 23:50
I've never been to a hiker feed. I've passed a few coolers with sodas in them, and jugs of water left at trailheads. I've availed myself to such treats with a clear conscience. :D

That's cool. I was hiking/lugging my pack up to Big Bald from Spivey Gap one time. I passed a cooler and picnic basket full of sodas and candy bars by the picnic area there. I didn't help myself and I had never seen anything like that before. Well, I'm huffin' and a puffin' up Big Bald and this fresh as a daisy 80 something couple is hiking towards me. They told me they had left that gap by the interstate (the name leaves me now), had 2 cars and were going to Spivey to pick the one up and drive home (17 miles MOL)and By The Way, we hope you helped yourself to some of the goodies we left at Spivey Gap.

ed bell
02-21-2008, 00:39
Is MS in the house? I want to hear about the TM you did in GA last month. You briefly mentioned it in the new subscriptions thread. Did you post a report here on WB? I'm interested in hearing about it. PM me if necessary. I had the best time of my life doing TM (for all hikers who showed).The downside is the lame negative comments from a few people on this website.


I did say this on another thread, only as a defense against being called so cheap I was bad for the Trail.

"Only about half of it was food. The rest was stuff that A) will be useful for more than one season of hikers, and B) was in part for the spirit, not the gut."

I sent large care packages to all three primary Georgia AT hostel that contained 2-4 different categories of stuff, depending on the unique characteristics of the destination. They arrived between Feb. 13-14. I called all three hostels and found that A) they did arrive, and B) were accepted enthusiastically and without reservation as very appropriate to help out passing hikers. When I called the Blueberry Patch to check on safe arrival, I was told me it was the largest TM care package they'd ever received.

About half a dozen WhiteBlaze members I've remained fairly close to know the full story in detail.

I'll let word from the Trail percolate up as to how helpful the TM I did was without any more promoting, other than to say I intend to do still more later this year. Nice to hear about you sending donations to hostels on the AT. I'm sure they appreciate it. As far as calling it "trail magic", well, I'm not so sure. I'm still firmly in the camp of having "trail magic" defined as spontaneous goodwill to fellow hikers. Considering "need", I would be inclined to using the acronym "TM" for Trail Maintenance, not trail magic.

fiddlehead
02-21-2008, 02:02
Wouldn't that be the pitts if hikers started to say that they refused to hike unless there was trail magic ??

'Slogger

I don't know that they refuse to hike if they don't get it, but they can get rude.
And THAT gives us all a worse reputation than we probably deserve.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-21-2008, 09:25
Hmmmm... MS has done something I've been known to do -- he is just doing it from far away and having others pass the items out -- giving hikers small items that I know from experience get forgotten or intentionally left behind as too heavy or not necessary and then are sorely missed.

I wasn't going to out myself as I'm afraid some will remember the strange old lady that was sitting at Tray Gap sometimes with an outdoor trash can full of ice with various drinks in it ---- and had these things in the back of a red minivan or a little dark blue sports car -- toilet paper - just roll off what you need, prison-style finger-tip toothbrushes, tiny bottles of rubbing alcohol (before alcohol gel), 1" cubes of soap in tiny little coin ziplocs, handiwipes (reusable kitchen towels that were what we used before microfiber pack towels), denat / Coleman, some plastic bottles and a few homemade alcohol stoves for those who discovered whatever they were carrying was just too heavy (and I've mailed plenty of stoves home for people or dropped them off at Neels Gap for them to mail home when they got there back when you could mail a gas stove or a canister stove), writing paper with pens and envelopes to send a note home (before cell phones and email were widely used), some empty 28 oz spaghetti sauce cans without labels (before the Heiny cans came in the big size and to replace the way too heavy cookware some were carrying until they could get to Neels Gap). A mirror with combs, disposal razors, shave cream - and a hula-hoop with a shower curtain hanging from a tree with a lawn chair inside sitting atop a rubber bath mat for those who wanted to take an impromptu pan bath (with two five gallon water carriers, biodegradable liquid soap and a stack of old towels nearby).

I'm fairly sure that what I did would have been called TM - so why is MS doing it from afar different? He just can't be there in person to do it.....

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 09:33
none of that is "trail magic"

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-21-2008, 09:38
none of that is "trail magic"Could you be a bit more pithy in you reasoning?
::: Dino makes popcorn for onlookers and prepares pail of ice with PBRs for LW to wet whistle while expounding :::

minnesotasmith
02-21-2008, 09:47
none of that is "trail magic"

Why you think that neither what I just did, nor FDino has done, qualifies as trail magic. The only plausible explanation I can come up with would be that these were premediated, planned-ahead-of-time by the trail angel. We weren't helping relatives or friends we already knew. Likewise, the hikers being helped almost certainly did not know in advance they were going to get that assistance.

By that logic, that would eliminate anyone serving food or drink as a major trail/road crossing from having their action deemed trail magic, including your half-in-jest section-hikers-only feed. ;)

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 09:56
Why you think that neither what I just did, nor FDino has done, qualifies as trail magic. The only plausible explanation I can come up with would be that these were premediated, planned-ahead-of-time by the trail angel. We weren't helping relatives or friends we already knew. Likewise, the hikers being helped almost certainly did not know in advance they were going to get that assistance.

By that logic, that would eliminate anyone serving food or drink as a major trail/road crossing from having their action deemed trail magic, including your half-in-jest section-hikers-only feed. ;)

anything premeditated is not "trail magic"

minnesotasmith
02-21-2008, 10:04
anything premeditated is not "trail magic"

That doesn't seem much of a criticism IMO. So, if you thought of bringing Gypsy a bouquet of flowers the day before you actually did it, you don't believe you'd be anywhere near as deserving of thanks and a big hug as if it were a spur-of-the-moment thing when the two of you were out in the town, and you walked in front of a florist shop? I just don't see the logic here.

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 10:09
you really don't understand "trail magic"

minnesotasmith
02-21-2008, 10:14
you really don't understand "trail magic"

How about explaining what you think it is more fully? (Not to mention answering my question.) ;)

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 10:19
How about explaining what you think it is more fully? (Not to mention answering my question.) ;)

i used to live in northern vermont, 2 miles from the end of the long trail. it's remote. one day a hiker comes down my road. i was mowing my lawn. he was kinda lost. he was wanting to hitch to burlington, 70 miles away. i stopped mowing, loaded him in the car and drove him there. for free. neither one of us expected that

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 10:20
So, if you thought of bringing Gypsy a bouquet of flowers the day before you actually did it, you don't believe you'd be anywhere near as deserving of thanks and a big hug as if it were a spur-of-the-moment thing when the two of you were out in the town, and you walked in front of a florist shop?

that wouldn't be "magic" or spontaneous

minnesotasmith
02-21-2008, 10:23
i used to live in northern vermont, 2 miles from the end of the long trail. it's remote. one day a hiker comes down my road. i was mowing my lawn. he was kinda lost. he was wanting to hitch to burlington, 70 miles away. i stopped mowing, loaded him in the car and drove him there. for free. neither one of us expected that

So, is TM IYO just something done to help a hiker out that's not planned ahead of time by either the TM nor the hiker? What if the hiker had figured on looking for help there? Would that premediation on his part knock out it being TM? If not, then it would seem just one party to TM could have it be non-premediated (and that'd make what FDino and I have done again be TM, by your own definition).

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 10:25
sounds like you're just looking for a pat on the back and some recognition. did you leave a register with the "magic" you left so people can tell you how great you are? :)

minnesotasmith
02-21-2008, 10:28
sounds like you're just looking for a pat on the back and some recognition.

I'm genuinely interested in what you think about this subject. You're highly trail- and trail-culture aware, not to mention brighter and more intellectually courageous than a high percentage of members of the AT community. So, when you have a deep opinion that varies from mine this much, it intrigues me, and I want to know why.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-21-2008, 10:35
So LW you don't feel anything premeditated is TM - that is cool. Under your definition, what MS and I did would not be TM.

Dances with Mice
02-21-2008, 10:35
Who cares what it's called?

What MS donated was thoughtful on several levels and will be, or already is, appreciated by both the hostel owners and the hikers they serve.

rafe
02-21-2008, 10:36
IMO, Trail Magic is also a shuttler that shows up, at a remote trailhead, exactly on time! :)

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 10:38
I'm genuinely interested in what you think about this subject. You're highly trail- and trail-culture aware, not to mention brighter and more intellectually courageous than a high percentage of members of the AT community. So, when you have a deep opinion that varies from mine this much, it intrigues me, and I want to know why.

another example. back in 86 i was hiking up roan mtn. in an unusually hot and dry spring. i left clyde smith shelter with no water cuz there is a spring half way up roan. the spring was dry, i was dehydrated and close to heat exhaustion. i got to the top and there set a winnebago with an older couple in lawn chairs. i was desperate. i asked them kindly for some water. the lady got me a glass of ice and a 2 litre bottle of coke then brought me slices of cucumber and tomatos. they had never heard of the AT or met a hiker on it. that was "magic"

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 10:39
So LW you don't feel anything premeditated is TM - that is cool. Under your definition, what MS and I did would not be TM.

correct. nice gesture though.

minnesotasmith
02-21-2008, 10:39
So LW you don't feel anything premeditated is TM - that is cool. Under your definition, what MS and I did would not be TM.

Then neither is what LW describes as TM that, either, if either the hiker he gave a ride to had so much as thought about hoping to get one before he met Lone Wolf, or if LW had thought ahead of time about the possibility of being in a position to help out hikers by having chosen that location to live intentionally... ;)

MOWGLI
02-21-2008, 10:42
Who cares what it's called?

What MS donated was thoughtful on several levels and will be, or already is, appreciated by both the hostel owners and the hikers they serve.

Agreed. MS gets a lot of grief here, but this was a kind gesture. I don't profess to understand the need to crow about it, but who cares. It's much better than a feed in the woods.

Gray Blazer
02-21-2008, 10:43
He believes he's a wolf but not in Trail Magic (messin' with ya). All of David Copperfields tricks are premeditated. Is that still magic?

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 10:44
Then neither is what LW describes as TM that, either, if either the hiker he gave a ride to had so much as thought about hoping to get one before he met Lone Wolf, or if LW had thought ahead of time about the possibility of being in a position to help out hikers by having chosen that location to live intentionally... ;)

i chose the location cuz the house was available for rent. i worked at the local ski area. seeing a hiker on my road was extremely rare. giving that kid a ride was magic

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 10:46
Agreed. MS gets a lot of grief here, but this was a kind gesture. I don't profess to understand the need to crow about it, but who cares. It's much better than a feed in the woods.

that guy who puts on the long trail festival in vermont puts soda in a stream and has a wooden box bolted to a tree with a register in it to thank him for "magic".

minnesotasmith
02-21-2008, 10:50
Agreed. MS gets a lot of grief here, but this was a kind gesture. I don't profess to understand the need to crow about it, but who cares. It's much better than a feed in the woods.

The TM I did via the GA hostels only came up as a defense to someone accusing me of being too cheap to help out the Trail or its community in any way that would cost me money.

StarLyte
02-21-2008, 10:53
i used to live in northern vermont, 2 miles from the end of the long trail. it's remote. one day a hiker comes down my road. i was mowing my lawn. he was kinda lost. he was wanting to hitch to burlington, 70 miles away. i stopped mowing, loaded him in the car and drove him there. for free. neither one of us expected that

LW is referring to being spontaneous.

It should be spontaneous, but it doesn't always happen this way :(

It seems like after the Internet came into our lives, things changed. More people are hiking, more are aware of the A.T. and of course, Trail Magic became prominent. It was no longer spontaneous.

Once I visited the ATC office in Harpers Ferry and asked someone there where is the best or "hot" spot to set up for Trail Magic in the area. An individual there explained to me that one's hiking/wilderness experience should never be disturbed, that I should not set up Trail Magic or leave items on the Trail for many obvious reasons. That if I really wanted to do this, I should be set back way far from the Trail/Trailhead area, so that the hiker would not be affected. He or she would definitely see my Trail Magic effort and if they wanted to participate they could walk over.

After our conversation, I had a better attitude on Trail Magic. So instead of sitting there at a trailhead, I drove up to Blackburn and donated my food to them. They feed hikers that hike in off the Trail. It still isn't spontaneous, but at least I wasn't disturbing a hiker, especially a long distance hiker. I felt better about it. I agreed that if a hiker crosses a Trailhead that I should not interfere with that.

It's like trying to stop a train to make sure everyone is fed and has a cold beverage :D

I have encountered many people out there performing the most unusual acts of "Trail Magic"...it's incredible. I don't perform Trail Magic anymore, but I do slack and shuttle hikers because it's fun!

There is no answer written in stone. It's what we all believe, and it's what we feel. Do what's in your heart, but don't make waste on the Trail, don't leave stuff on the Trail, and for God's sakes...be respectful when performing Trail magic.

I agree with Lone Wolf, yet I also agree with Minnesota Smith.

Alligator
02-21-2008, 10:54
The TM I did via the GA hostels only came up as a defense to someone accusing me of being too cheap to help out the Trail or its community in any way that would cost me money.It was kind of you to do MS.

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 10:57
LW is referring to being spontaneous.

It should be spontaneous, but it doesn't always happen this way :(

It seems like after the Internet came into our lives, things changed. More people are hiking, more are aware of the A.T. and of course, Trail Magic became prominent. It was no longer spontaneous.

Once I visited the ATC office in Harpers Ferry and asked someone there where is the best or "hot" spot to set up for Trail Magic in the area. An individual there explained to me that one's hiking/wilderness experience should never be disturbed, that I should not set up Trail Magic or leave items on the Trail for many obvious reasons. That if I really wanted to do this, I should be set back way far from the Trail/Trailhead area, so that the hiker would not be affected. He or she would definitely see my Trail Magic effort and if they wanted to participate they could walk over.

After our conversation, I had a better attitude on Trail Magic. So instead of sitting there at a trailhead, I drove up to Blackburn and donated my food to them. They feed hikers that hike in off the Trail. It still isn't spontaneous, but at least I wasn't disturbing a hiker, especially a long distance hiker. I felt better about it. I agreed that if a hiker crosses a Trailhead that I should not interfere with that.

It's like trying to stop a train to make sure everyone is fed and has a cold beverage :D

I have encountered many people out there performing the most unusual acts of "Trail Magic"...it's incredible. I don't perform Trail Magic anymore, but I do slack and shuttle hikers because it's fun!

There is no answer written in stone. It's what we all believe, and it's what we feel. Do what's in your heart, but don't make waste on the Trail, don't leave stuff on the Trail, and for God's sakes...be respectful when performing Trail magic.

I agree with Lone Wolf, yet I also agree with Minnesota Smith.

it's just the wording. "trail magic" does not happen a lot.

Dances with Mice
02-21-2008, 11:03
it's just the wording. "trail magic" does not happen a lot.I think we gotcha. Sometimes things happen that are pure magic. (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=262777&postcount=3892)

minnesotasmith
02-21-2008, 11:08
I think we gotcha. Sometimes things happen that are pure magic. (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=262777&postcount=3892)

*sniff* It's people like that family I met along the way during my thruhike that raised my opinion of humanity.

Jaybird
02-21-2008, 11:12
TRAIL MAGIC is a GOOD thing...(with conditions) as long as the PROVIDER of said "MAGIC" cleans up the mess later...

Always appreciated when i come up on a COLD Soda or snacks left by a nearby hiker friend...just makes my day!:D

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 11:17
that ain't "magic"

jersey joe
02-21-2008, 11:27
While I understand lone wolf's point on premeditated vs spontaneous, I still consider someone leaving a cooler of sodas on the side of the trail "trail magic".

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 11:34
i consider it just a cooler left in the woods that turns into trash. nothing magic about that

Tin Man
02-21-2008, 11:37
Magic shmagic, don't look a gift horse in the word,
accept the gift with graciousness and move on down the board.

jersey joe
02-21-2008, 11:41
i consider it just a cooler left in the woods that turns into trash. nothing magic about that

I am assuming the "trail angel" comes back to get the cooler and doesn't leave it as litter.

rafe
02-21-2008, 11:42
This is magic. (Sodas left in a stream by "The Trail Gnome" just north of Clarendon Shelter, August 2002.)


http://gallery.backcountry.net/albums/at-vt-2002/aam.jpg

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 11:43
that's just soda left in a stream. doesn't belong there

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 11:44
I am assuming the "trail angel" comes back to get the cooler and doesn't leave it as litter.

some do some don't

Gray Blazer
02-21-2008, 11:45
that ain't "magic" ...and you're not a "wolf".

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 11:46
...and you're not a "wolf".

duh! :rolleyes:

max patch
02-21-2008, 11:46
[QUOTE=_terrapin_;544735]This is magic. (Sodas left in a stream by "The Trail Gnome" just north of Clarendon Shelter, August 2005.)


That just trash in the woods. And "Trail Gnome" whoever he or she is obviously found it necessary to let people who was responsible. Had to feed his or her ego.

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 11:47
[QUOTE=_terrapin_;544735]This is magic. (Sodas left in a stream by "The Trail Gnome" just north of Clarendon Shelter, August 2005.)


That just trash in the woods. And "Trail Gnome" whoever he or she is obviously found it necessary to let people who was responsible. Had to feed his or her ego.

yup. pretty much

Almost There
02-21-2008, 11:54
Magic is the guy who driving up a forest service road pulls over just to chat and doesn't even know about the trail, but sees that Little Bear and I are soaked with sweat and offers us each an Ice Cold drink.

Or on my first AT hike, coming off of Sassafras out of water and there is a boy scout group packing up to hike and one of the scout leaders hears me mention being out of water and walks over with a couple of oranges and two bottles of water for No Worries and I.

I agree with Wolf that it's magic because they had no intention of doing it when they got there, and you get it when you really need it.

That being said, it's still a nice gesture when people plan it, but it just isn't "trail magic", it's simply "trail generosity."

I know semantics!!

rafe
02-21-2008, 11:59
that's just soda left in a stream. doesn't belong there

It was 95 degrees in the shade. I'm sure you would have walked right by, LW. Yeah, right. ;)

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 12:01
It was 95 degrees in the shade. I'm sure you would have walked right by, LW. Yeah, right. ;)

if the soda wasn't there, the stream was. i've walked past sodas in a stream. it don't belong there

Lyle
02-21-2008, 12:02
Spontaneous, unexpected trail magic is definitely good for both the hiker and the trail angel.

I define this as seeing a hiker in need and offering a solution for them. Could be a ride, an offer of food, a cold drink on a hot day, an unexpected place to stay, medical attention, an invite in for a break on a cold miserable day, picking up a restaurant check, etc., etc.

Organized group feeds are nice if done appropriately, generally I wouldn't refuse to eat. My perception is that some are done in inappropriate locations and actually become intrusive to a person's hike. I guess I'd judge these on a case by case basis.

Guess I look more positively on the impromptu aid given as the true trail magic. Often this is by folks who normally don't even associate with hikers, but are just intrigued.

rafe
02-21-2008, 12:04
if the soda wasn't there, the stream was. i've walked past sodas in a stream. it don't belong there

fortunately, you're not "the decider" :D

Pedaling Fool
02-21-2008, 12:12
Don't we go hiking to get away from society. I can't say how many times I've heard someone lament about the road being too close to the trail. Yet we seem to want pieces of society forced on us in a stream or at a road crossing. Where's the "getting back to nature" part of that.

I know there are a lot of well meaning people that do "TM", but I just see a crazy duality and contradiction in the purpose of hiking the AT. There are towns everywhere along the AT, especially in the mid-Atlantic, just more of a reason to not have your time away from society disturbed.

I guess the AT is more of a social thing than a wilderness experience. Kind of sad.

rafe
02-21-2008, 12:18
I guess the AT is more of a social thing than a wilderness experience. Kind of sad.


Why can't it be a bit of both? I think of it as recreation, first and foremost. There are certain aspects of society I want to get away from, for sure. The noise, the violence, the constant competition, the insane, mindless materialism. But humans don't bother me... only a**holes do. :D

Red Hat
02-21-2008, 12:18
In 2003 I went to visit my daughter in New York. For my birthday she asked what I would like to do for the day. I hadn't thought about it, but decided I wanted to surprise the hikers as they crossed NY17 into Harriman State Park. We bought several trays of fresh fruit, and a bunch of sodas. We waited in our car parked there until hikers came and then offered them a snack. Almost everyone stopped and enjoyed it. I thought it was trail magic, as that was what they called it. Surely they had not been expecting it. And for me, it was my most memorable birthday ever!

MOWGLI
02-21-2008, 12:24
I guess the AT is more of a social thing than a wilderness experience. Kind of sad.


Yes, it is more of a social thing. Sad? I donno about that. It is what it is. You can experience some amazing wilderness areas and have plenty of solitude on the AT. Especially outside of the peak thru-hiker season.

If you are seeking a less social experience or truly remote wilderness, than there are other trails out there for you to seek out.

Pedaling Fool
02-21-2008, 12:24
Why can't it be a bit of both? I think of it as recreation, first and foremost. There are certain aspects of society I want to get away from, for sure. The noise, the violence, the constant competition, the insane, mindless materialism. But humans don't bother me... only a**holes do. :D
I guess it's just too subjective to answer. I just see it as a time to get away. To me a little hardship does the soul good.

Pedaling Fool
02-21-2008, 12:26
Yes, it is more of a social thing. Sad? I donno about that. It is what it is. You can experience some amazing wilderness areas and have plenty of solitude on the AT. Especially outside of the peak thru-hiker season.

If you are seeking a less social experience or truly remote wilderness, than there are other trails out there for you to seek out.
You're right. Just seems sad to me.

MOWGLI
02-21-2008, 12:26
You're right. Just seems sad to me.

Go west Young Man!!

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 12:28
fortunately, you're not "the decider" :D

it doesn't belong in a steam in the woods. period. i'm right

Tin Man
02-21-2008, 12:33
it doesn't belong in a steam in the woods. period. i'm right

I have come across ancient sodas in a stream, all faded with age that I wouldn't touch, no thank you, it's just garbage.

Gray Blazer
02-21-2008, 12:40
I guess the AT is more of a social thing than a wilderness experience. Kind of sad.

People can be sociable in the wilderness. That's the American way. (Barn Raisings, Jubilees, camp meetings, etc.). It's the old school American way, I grant you. In America we teach everyone to be a rugged individual and then we throw them all together (cities, schools,etc.). I know of individuals on this site who hike from Springer every March. If they didn't want to be sociable they would hike somewhere else or start at a later date. And others get off by themselves and enjoy that solitary wilderness thing.

When I joined this site a few years ago, one of the first things I read about was trail magic and feeds. I didn't know the difference at that time, but I thought it would be cool do do one. I was planning a surprise feed, but then I read that someone was doing a big feed at NOC or somewhere near the place and date where I was planning mine, so I announced it on this site. A lot of people were going to help me, friends, family and WBer's, but, everyone bailed out. I pulled it off by myself on a summit at the end of a blue blazed trail. I made a sign out of sticks and put it in the snow declaring ham and eggs, thataway. The sign is long gone. Hikers could pass it if they wanted, but, everyone came on up anyway, sectioners and thrubees, and we had a good time. I had my flute and guitar, but, it was so cold noone jammed. To me, it was magic because I had the best time of my life camping in the snow for 4 days (I'm from FL so the snow was different and unexpected and kinda fun).

A-Train
02-21-2008, 12:47
The TM I did via the GA hostels only came up as a defense to someone accusing me of being too cheap to help out the Trail or its community in any way that would cost me money.

That's a pretty cool thing. Sorts adds to the mystique with you sending whatever you did through the mail and not being present. In 03' we got to Neels Gap and a BBQ had already been paid for, I believe by Nimblewill Nomad, for some of this years hikers. We were the lucky recipients, and I was pretty grateful.

Necessary? Not at all. Memorable? Hell yes.

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 12:49
all trail "magicians" should give the $$ they would spend on feeding hikers that don't need to be fed, to a local maintaining club to buy tools and such for upkeep of the AT

Pedaling Fool
02-21-2008, 12:56
People can be sociable in the wilderness. That's the American way. (Barn Raisings, Jubilees, camp meetings, etc.). It's the old school American way, I grant you. In America we teach everyone to be a rugged individual and then we throw them all together (cities, schools,etc.). I know of individuals on this site who hike from Springer every March. If they didn't want to be sociable they would hike somewhere else or start at a later date. And others get off by themselves and enjoy that solitary wilderness thing.

When I joined this site a few years ago, one of the first things I read about was trail magic and feeds. I didn't know the difference at that time, but I thought it would be cool do do one. I was planning a surprise feed, but then I read that someone was doing a big feed at NOC or somewhere near the place and date where I was planning mine, so I announced it on this site. A lot of people were going to help me, friends, family and WBer's, but, everyone bailed out. I pulled it off by myself on a summit at the end of a blue blazed trail. I made a sign out of sticks and put it in the snow declaring ham and eggs, thataway. The sign is long gone. Hikers could pass it if they wanted, but, everyone came on up anyway, sectioners and thrubees, and we had a good time. I had my flute and guitar, but, it was so cold noone jammed. To me, it was magic because I had the best time of my life camping in the snow for 4 days (I'm from FL so the snow was different and unexpected and kinda fun).
I see your point, and don't argue it. I just think it's over the top, given the amount of towns. However, what bothers me more is the thought of how it will evolve. Everything changes, so to say TM will just stay the same is not correct. I see one of two things happening 1) It just goes away. 2) It gets more and more elaborate, to the point of commercialization of "TM". That's what is sad to me. Given the popularity of the AT, I see #2 as being more of a possibility.

rafe
02-21-2008, 12:56
I have come across ancient sodas in a stream, all faded with age that I wouldn't touch, no thank you, it's just garbage.

Nobody's asking you to drink out of rusty cans. ISTM, the sodas in the photo that I posted had been put there within days or even hours of my arrival (it was peak thru-hiker season in VT, and it was hot as hell.) I have a hunch they were well looked-after.

I agree, if one leaves a cooler in the woods -- it should be retrieved after the deed is done. (Nothing sadder than an empty cooler in the woods :(.) The job pictured in my photo was quite "professional."

Paul Bunyan
02-21-2008, 12:58
Hey, personally, i think Trail Magic is great. There were several time that i was running out of energy, and then found that soda or Twinkie. It really pulled me through. I know alot of people around here don't like that kind of stuff, but it really helps. I definately want to try and set some up, or even drive people to Traildays. So, if anyone near the Shenendoah or Waynesboro area needs a ride to Traildays, just pm me. Or if you know you will be in that area hiking, just let me know as well.

rafe
02-21-2008, 13:02
all trail "magicians" should give the $$ they would spend on feeding hikers that don't need to be fed, to a local maintaining club to buy tools and such for upkeep of the AT

Not mutually exclusive. One can do both. When you come down to it, the AT exists because of a vast network of volunteers. Money isn't the main issue -- except maybe to purchase land, easements, tools, etc. The labor that created the trail was 99.9% unpaid, and provided out of love and generosity.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-21-2008, 13:02
I have come across ancient sodas in a stream, all faded with age that I wouldn't touch, no thank you, it's just garbage.I have hauled faded soda cans (emptied if still full) and Styrofoam coolers that once contained items left for those on the trail out of the woods more times than I care to remember. LNT applies to magic as well as hiking. If you pack it in, you need to be sure it gets packed out.

Tin Man
02-21-2008, 13:02
Nobody's asking you to drink out of rusty cans. ISTM, the sodas in the photo that I posted had been put there within days or even hours of my arrival (it was peak thru-hiker season in VT, and it was hot as hell.) I have a hunch they were well looked-after.

I agree, if one leaves a cooler in the woods -- it should be retrieved after the deed is done. (Nothing sadder than an empty cooler in the woods :(.) The job pictured in my photo was quite "professional."

Hey, I have helped myself to a fresh soda or a beer on occasion, but I was always concerned about the cleanup, there and wherever anyone might carry the cans. I think if people want to share, they ought to be there for conversation and cleanup.

mudhead
02-21-2008, 13:04
i used to live in northern vermont, 2 miles from the end of the long trail. it's remote. one day a hiker comes down my road. i was mowing my lawn. he was kinda lost. he was wanting to hitch to burlington, 70 miles away. i stopped mowing, loaded him in the car and drove him there. for free. neither one of us expected that

Jeez. And I catch grief for some of the creative reasoning I use for not mowing the lawn.

Appalachian Tater
02-21-2008, 13:06
Unless there's a note saying to leave your trash, and a container to put it in, you should pack it out. If someone gave you a pack of ramen you wouldn't give them the wrappers back, it's become your responsibility. You didn't pack it in but you consumed it.

The Weasel
02-21-2008, 13:09
I disagree with your statement in whole. If trail magic is essential, then that means that individuals cannot complete the trail by themselves, under their own power, responsible for their well-being, fundamentally self-reliant.

Magic, by its nature, is mysterious, and the original spirit of the phrase "Trail Magic" was that nice "coincidences" would occur for a long-distance hiker.

These days it seems that Trail Magic" has been institutionalized. (I've net people with business cards that say they are "Trail Angels.") So people have come to depend on it?! That breeds "dependency," which seems antithetical to the concept of "going to the wilderness." (Let's not take this on the tangent that the AT isn't really wilderness; let's save that for another thread.)

While people are free to do what they want to do in terms of expecting or providing "Trail Magic" (so long as it doesn't violate the rights of others), I can see no manner in which undertaking an act of volitional recreation would therefore insinuate the "essential" (i.e. necessary) assistance of unknown others.

If someone feels that they cannot hike without Trail Magic, then I would tell them to grow up and get a life.

While I have provided assistance to other hikers unknown to me in the form of food, beverages, giving them a ride, or directions, if I felt obligated to provide this because it was "essential" for them to be able to complete the AT, then I would be more inclined to look on these people as beggars, and therefore far less deserving of help.

Just like the idiots who put rescuers in peril by not being prepared and yet intentionally getting in situations over their heads.

Dang. Where to begin? I copied the entire message from BR because of its breathtaking misunderstanding of who we are as hikers. OK. I'll try, in pieces:

1) No thruhiker completes the trial on their own, under their own power, responsible for their (own) well-being, fundamentally self-reliant.

Even those of us who walk every step ourselves, carrying our own gear and supplies, don't do it "on our own." Whether it's the support of those at home, the businesses that provide us food or the post offices that hold our boxes, or the driver who stops when we stick out our thumb to get to town, or the hostel owner who gives us a bunk for the night, we are dependent on others kindness for our hike. (Yes, even at businesses: Those who disagree are invited to reread the "Uncle Johnny's" threads.) And the moral support of other hikers makes it a 'group' endeavor, with 'magic' often coming from them, as well. I rather doubt that anyone since Daniel Boone has been "fundamentally self-reliant" in stalking the Appalachians, even Earl Shaffer.

2) Trail Angels breed independence, and people who enjoy performing random acts of kindness are to be encouraged.

When someone does a mitzvah (go look it up, folks), it sends a powerful message: Even when you are alone, you're not alone. Independence is a key factor in being part of a community of equals, and knowing that others will, sooner or later, perform an act of kindness for you reminds you of your obligation to act similarly to others. That reminds people that we're each not, as John Donne, poetically put it, "an island unto itself." That relatedness-to-others reminds us that we are truly independent, free to accept or reject the goodness of others and to act that way ourselves.

3) Those who recognize that 'trail magic' will come, when it is time for it to come, already have lives. Those who don't realize that it is coming are the ones who don't see a part of their own soul.

I know that something good will happen to me. If not today, then tomorrow. It will come unexpectedly, whether from God's grace, for those who believe in that, or just good luck. That's a fundamentally optimistic approach to life, and those who think that goodness can only be random don't understand that if it is, there really is no meaning to life. I don't: Good people should do good things not because they have to, but when they want to we shouldn't criticise them.

Beyond that, BR's post get's the "My Cousin Vinnie" riposte: "Everything he just said is bs."

Trail magic matters on the Trail. It also matters in life.

TW

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 13:11
sodas and feeds aren't magic. and BR360s post is right on

Pedaling Fool
02-21-2008, 13:12
For those that like orgainzed feeds (not all of them are at roadsides, I've seen them directly on the AT) or appreciate stuff left on the AT or in a stream, but were opposed to the windmill project in Maine, because it would destroy the natural beauty. Can you explain the difference?

Tin Man
02-21-2008, 13:12
Unless there's a note saying to leave your trash, and a container to put it in, you should pack it out. If someone gave you a pack of ramen you wouldn't give them the wrappers back, it's become your responsibility. You didn't pack it in but you consumed it.

Absolutely. I am sure most of us here would do the right thing, but what about everyone else? I have seen empties down the trail.

GGS2
02-21-2008, 13:17
sodas and feeds aren't magic. and BR360s post is right on

But they are soda and feeds.

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 13:19
But they are soda and feeds.

correct.....

Marta
02-21-2008, 13:24
Should have a line for "I do trail magic without planning"

There was a fair amount of planning when you brought Firewater to us in the Shenandoahs...;)

StarLyte
02-21-2008, 15:12
Once I was close to running out of water and quite scared-it was dusk. All water sources were dried up, and I was a long way from the next trailhead; I usually hike alone, this time no exception. An A.T. Ridgerunner was behind me so I stopped and asked him what would his suggestion be. He took out his map of the area, which including blue blazes, to show me another water source that was 1 mile away on a blue blaze, and then poured me 1 liter of water into my camelback to get me there.

THAT IS TRAIL MAGIC.

I do not think it is okay to leave cans of soda in a beautiful stream running along the magnificent Appalachian Trail.

Doctari
02-21-2008, 15:27
To me, "Trail Magic" is just that, Magic. It's the unexpected, "Just because" type of magic you find at random times & places. Like: The young couple that was finishing a day hike & offered me a snack & a cola. Or the time I handed my car key to 3 SOBO thru hikers about 3 hrs from Newfound gap, on a weekday, raining & just after 6PM & asked that they be careful.

I have partaken of what Coffee calls "Trail Charity" & I suppose that is ok too, but I'm not a big fan of Pre-planned "EVENTS" & think that the term Trail Charity fits well.

So, my vote was: Trail MAGIC is good, Trail CHARITY, , , not so much. I have participated in Trail Magic and plan on doing it again. I may someday do trail charity, but likely for SOBOs cause they usually miss out on the trail charity that the NOBOs get, & NEVER as a huge EVENT!

jesse
02-21-2008, 15:56
I agree, if one leaves a cooler in the woods -- it should be retrieved after the deed is done. (Nothing sadder than an empty cooler in the woods :(.) The job pictured in my photo was quite "professional."

That's BS. First nothing should ever be left, even with the intent of retrieving it later. Second, I did not see anything in your photo that looked professional. Just a bunch of litter left there by an inconsiderate *&$(@^#*^$.

BR360
02-21-2008, 16:02
The Weasel, I think you just like to argue! Is that why you got into lawyerin'?

Anyway, let's start with this one:


Beyond that, BR's post get's the "My Cousin Vinnie" riposte: "Everything he just said is bs." TW

My opinion is to be summarily dismissed by YOU as bs?! This is flagrant hypocrisy.

I do seem to remember your professed aversion to ad hominem attacks (and if you did not profess it, will you not now?) Less you suggest that you were only minimizing WHAT I said with this "riposte" rather than attacking me as the SOURCE of an opinion with which you disagree, and using the "triangulation" of saying that with Vinnie-as-proxy, well, your argument would be seen as nothing less than disingenuous.

At any rate, you do not have a corner on what is right and truthful in this forum. [Since I disagree with some parts of your post, should I profess to all in dismissive tones to undermine your post: "I have a friend who says that 'All lawyers should be ignored, because all they say is bs?'" No. That would be seen as an ad hominem attack on you. And I don't believe it.]

Next point:

... breathtaking misunderstanding of who we are as hikers...TW

I'm glad I could take your breath away! :D

But, who is "we hikers?" Hikers are not a universal class of people, unless one stereotypes. You wouldn't be stereotyping would you?:-?

Aside from an enjoyment of travel by foot on trails, there is NOT a singular identity of "Hiker" to which one can factually refer. [Now, if'n you is lawyerin', then ya might be able to make hikers a "class" for a class-action lawsuit...but we're just talkin' about Trail Magic here.]

Each hiker is unique, with different motivations, values, abilities, and opinions. This very thread and the entire rest of WB clearly demonstrates the variety of hikers for all who have eyes (and minds) open enough to see.

I, BR360, am a hiker too. I have thousands of miles of hiking under my belt. And I understand myself very well. And I have led hundreds of other hikers on backpacking trips. So I know a bit about hikers too. I may misunderstand you, and you me. That happens when hikers are different. Dontcha' see?;)

To attempt to exclude me---as a hiker---with a bit of word-smithing is intellectually dishonest, and just plain wrong.



Trail magic matters on the Trail. It also matters in life.
TW

Duh.

But it is the very definition of trail magic, and how it gets played out, with intention or not, that is the point under consideration.

To help someone when they are in need defines us as human beings. Kindness, generosity, and charity are virtuous. I hope we do not forget these things in our society.

Teaching people to fish, rather than giving them fish, is even more virtuous. I hope we do not forget this even more.

If people go out on the trail expecting others to help them out---feeling entitled to assistance---then I would call them moochers. I for one, would be much less inclined (tho I would help them if they were in real "need") to provide kindnesses and generosity when the recipient expects it.

Organized "Trail Magic" is kind of like feeding the bears. The reason you DON'T do it is because they come to expect it. And once they expect it, sooner or later they become a nuisance.

rafe
02-21-2008, 16:11
That's BS. First nothing should ever be left, even with the intent of retrieving it later. Second, I did not see anything in your photo that looked professional. Just a bunch of litter left there by an inconsiderate *&$(@^#*^$.

Your opinion. I have a strong suspicion that the sodas were left by the local shelter maintainer in that area. (It was actually closer to Minerva Hinchey Shelter than to Clarendon, now that I think on it.) And if that's not the case, whoever did the deed was certainly known to the local shelter maintainer. That was no ad-hoc installation. There was a small register in a wooden box on a tree next to the stream. I signed it with a big, "Thank You."

Jeebuss, all these folks decidin' what's OK and what's not OK on the trail. Everyone wants to be King. :rolleyes:

Lyle
02-21-2008, 16:14
I think this Jeanie is out of the bottle and I don't think it will be put back in anytime soon. Perhaps groups like ALDHA and ATC can agree on some voluntary guidelines, but given the social nature of the AT and the expectations that have evolved over the years, I think trail magic, planned and impromptu, and however it is defined, is here to stay.

As other's have pointed out, if you do not care for this type of hike, consider other trails that are less social. The AT is what the AT is. Just as the ADT would not fit everyone's idea of a good hiking experience, it is one option. Many will and do find it satisfying. I think the AT is pretty much past being a "wilderness trail". That is not necessarily good or bad.

Let's offer some guidelines so that Trail Magic doesn't become even more overpowering, but to try to turn back the clock will probably not be successful due to the popularity of these events and practices.

Just my $0.02

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 16:16
Your opinion. I have a strong suspicion that the sodas were left by the local shelter maintainer in that area. (It was actually closer to Minerva Hinchey Shelter than to Clarendon, now that I think on it.) And if that's not the case, whoever did the deed was certainly known to the local shelter maintainer. That was no ad-hoc installation. There was a small register in a wooden box on a tree next to the stream. I signed it with a big, "Thank You."

Jeebuss, all these folks decidin' what's OK and what's not OK on the trail. Everyone wants to be King. :rolleyes:

and the box bolted to the tree has no business being there. the ATC would agree. you're wrong terrapin

rafe
02-21-2008, 16:18
and the box bolted to the tree has no business being there. the ATC would agree. you're wrong terrapin

Why don't you go walk the PCT or CDT if you hate the AT so much? :-?

Why do you live in Damascus if you hate thru-hikers so much? :-?

max patch
02-21-2008, 16:20
Let's offer some guidelines so that Trail Magic doesn't become even more overpowering,

The ATC already has guidelines; which most everyone ignores. They can be summarized as:

1. Don't do Trail Magic. Become an AT volunteer, instead.
2. If you have to do Trail Magic, keep it small.
3. If you have to do Trail Magic, do it NEAR the trail, as opposed to ON the trail.
4. Pick up ALL trash.

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 16:20
Why don't you go walk the PCT or CDT if you hate the AT so much? :-?

Why do you live in Damascus if you hate thru-hikers so much? :-?

i don't hate the AT or hikers.
putting sodas in streams and bolting personal boxes to trees is totally wrong. period. the ATC would agree
it's amazing that you can't understand this simple fact

tina.anderson
02-21-2008, 16:32
i don't hate the AT or hikers.
putting sodas in streams and bolting personal boxes to trees is totally wrong. period. the ATC would agree

I agree with that. There is really no good reason to do these things and they hurt the environment, which we as hikers are supposed to care for and appreciate.

Lone Wolf
02-21-2008, 16:33
I agree with that. There is really no good reason to do these things and they hurt the environment, which we as hikers are supposed to care for and appreciate.

and the fact that maintainers are doing it makes it really bad

Lyle
02-21-2008, 16:34
The ATC already has guidelines; which most everyone ignores. They can be summarized as:

1. Don't do Trail Magic. Become an AT volunteer, instead.
2. If you have to do Trail Magic, keep it small.
3. If you have to do Trail Magic, do it NEAR the trail, as opposed to ON the trail.
4. Pick up ALL trash.

Perhaps they need to be stressed more. Actually publicize them. Very few folks will search them out on the ATC website. Make this a major publicity campaign for a few years. I suspect many of the trail angels are not hikers at all, just folks who wish to be a part of the trail experience - have to figure out how to reach them.

But like I said, as long as these things are popular with the majority of hikers, it will be very difficult to put an end to or even curtail them. Will be easier to just slow the expansion.

Not everything we do has to be the easiest tho, so have at this battle if you believe it is right. Just be aware that as long as hikers support the events, it will be a very uphill battle.

bfitz
02-21-2008, 16:44
Perhaps they need to be stressed more. Actually publicize them. Very few folks will search them out on the ATC website. Make this a major publicity campaign for a few years. I suspect many of the trail angels are not hikers at all, just folks who wish to be a part of the trail experience - have to figure out how to reach them.

But like I said, as long as these things are popular with the majority of hikers, it will be very difficult to put an end to or even curtail them. Will be easier to just slow the expansion.

Not everything we do has to be the easiest tho, so have at this battle if you believe it is right. Just be aware that as long as hikers support the events, it will be a very uphill battle.Whatever....:rolleyes:, just don't leave a trace and you can do as you please. Hot dogs are allowed, so is sharing, that's all it is.

jesse
02-21-2008, 16:51
all these folks decidin' what's OK and what's not OK on the trail. Everyone wants to be King

Is there anytime, you would consider it wrong to put sodas in a stream?

DesertMTB
02-21-2008, 16:54
Is there anytime, you would consider it wrong to put sodas in a stream?


Sodas should never be left in a stream. ONLY BEER MAY BE LEFT.

Appalachian Tater
02-21-2008, 16:56
Cans of soda really shouldn't be in a stream. No doubt even the person who put them there knows it.

However, that never stopped me from drinking one or being glad to have it.

Does that make me a hypocrite?

ed bell
02-21-2008, 16:57
Is there anytime, you would consider it wrong to put sodas in a stream?I'll answer always unless they were my "sodas" (beers). Plus it appears as though some fencing material was used to hold them in place, who needs that. Oh, and the sodas were wall-mart brand and sodas aren't good for you anyway.:D

bfitz
02-21-2008, 17:01
Is there anytime, you would consider it wrong to put sodas in a stream?Yes, if you couldn't guarantee to leave no trace or did not know who might find them. It would only be right in the context of the exactly right judgement call. I have had someone leave beer in the creek and cake for me on my birthday at a shleter area not far from the road they knew I would be in a short time....well, that was some trail magic, and I'd say that person did right, they knew I'd leave no trace of either cake or beer....

emerald
02-21-2008, 17:05
Why don't you go walk the PCT or CDT if you hate the AT so much? :-?

Maybe he and some others value what the A.T. was intended to be. Why should people be expected to travel 1000s of miles to experience what exists in their own back yards if properly managed?

The Weasel
02-21-2008, 17:23
Well, BR, your most recent post wasn't as good as your first one, althought it was just as long, so I'm not going to copy it here.

As for the "Everything he just said is BS," well, first of all, it's a quote from a really great comedy, made by a really dumb looking lawyer, played by Joe Pesci. The point of it is, "Yeah, I could go on for hours. But I won't. Thank you. [Sits down]" Some would chuckle about me lifting the quote. I think you're the one who told people who don't agree with you to 'get a life'. Perhaps you should, too; I understand they are having a sale on them at the Dollar Store, and even one of those looks better than the one you've got. I'll lend you the buck if you need it.

Second, you argue more, and longer, than me. I don't pick on your job, whatever it is. Leave mine out of it.

Lastly, if you want to insult people who try to do nice things, and then insult people who enjoy them, well, go ahead. After you buy that life at the Dollar Store, they have "The Grinch Who Stole Christmas," in case you need some more inspiration. But you'll have to use your own dolllar; the one I'll lend you for a life is all I'm giving away today.

Thanks for all the love and warmth.

TW

rafe
02-21-2008, 17:27
Perhaps they need to be stressed more. Actually publicize them. Very few folks will search them out on the ATC website. Make this a major publicity campaign for a few years. I suspect many of the trail angels are not hikers at all, just folks who wish to be a part of the trail experience - have to figure out how to reach them.

But like I said, as long as these things are popular with the majority of hikers, it will be very difficult to put an end to or even curtail them. Will be easier to just slow the expansion.

Not everything we do has to be the easiest tho, so have at this battle if you believe it is right. Just be aware that as long as hikers support the events, it will be a very uphill battle.


I know this controversy has been going on for some time. I remember arguing about it on Trailplace, years ago. As a consequence of this thread, I just became aware that the ATC has in fact weighed in with "official" guidelines. (I wonder if our friend Wingfoot had something to do with that... Hmmm.)

I wonder if Trail Gnome's display of generosity is still in place.

I never required or expected trail magic. But I generally appreciated it when I ran across it.

There are plenty other violations of the wilderness that irk me far more than an occasional cooler or soda cans. Like traffic noise that goes on for miles and miles, endless motorcycle noises along the length of SNP...

I recall when I first heard of Trail Days, and thinking, how does this jibe with the idea of a hike through the wilderness?

rafe
02-21-2008, 17:38
Maybe he and some others value what the A.T. was intended to be. Why should people be expected to travel 1000s of miles to experience what exists in their own back yards if properly managed?

"Intended" by whom? Where do you draw the line? There are plenty of man-made constructs on the trail. The trail would be impassable without them. I can't say sodas in a stream are essential in any way. I walked half the AT before I saw such things. But the idea of the AT as some sort of primordial Eden is naïve.

Tin Man
02-21-2008, 17:46
Cans of soda really shouldn't be in a stream. No doubt even the person who put them there knows it.

However, that never stopped me from drinking one or being glad to have it.

Does that make me a hypocrite?

Taking a soda encourages and perpetuates the behavior. If you think it's wrong, then, yes, that would make you a hypocrite and wrong too.

If it is beer and you don't leave any for me, that makes you a selfish drunk. :D

Appalachian Tater
02-21-2008, 18:04
Lawyers bill by the hour. Translation into the common vernacular:


Well, BR, your most recent post wasn't as good as your first one, althought it was just as long, so I'm not going to copy it here. B.S.


As for the "Everything he just said is BS," well, first of all, it's a quote from a really great comedy, made by a really dumb looking lawyer, played by Joe Pesci. The point of it is, "Yeah, I could go on for hours. But I won't. Thank you. [Sits down]" Some would chuckle about me lifting the quote. I think you're the one who told people who don't agree with you to 'get a life'. Perhaps you should, too; I understand they are having a sale on them at the Dollar Store, and even one of those looks better than the one you've got. I'll lend you the buck if you need it. Get a life.


Second, you argue more, and longer, than me. I don't pick on your job, whatever it is. Leave mine out of it. MYOB.


Lastly, if you want to insult people who try to do nice things, and then insult people who enjoy them, well, go ahead. After you buy that life at the Dollar Store, they have "The Grinch Who Stole Christmas," in case you need some more inspiration. But you'll have to use your own dolllar; the one I'll lend you for a life is all I'm giving away today. Get a life.


Thanks for all the love and warmth. ********.


TW The Weasel

BR360
02-21-2008, 18:24
Well, The Weasel, I now see that the antipathy that you generate towards yourself is well-deserved. What goes around comes around, right?

Your completely erroneous characterization of my life (i.e. your statements re "Dollar Store life," "Grinch" etc.) is not only arrogant on your part, but silly. And completely out of line.

Go back and read my original post regarding Trail Magic, TW, and check my vote on the poll. You will see that not have I given to others on the trail, but that I plan on giving in the future.

So there. (Nice summation, eh!:o)

jersey joe
02-21-2008, 18:43
People who give away food on the trail do so out of kindness. Hikers who take this food are thankful for it. If a handful of people don't like it, too bad.

emerald
02-21-2008, 19:15
"Intended" by whom?

A good question. How about those who created it and those responsible for passing it on in a condition better than they received it?


But the idea of the AT as some sort of primordial Eden is naïve.

I'm not sure there's a primordial Eden anywhere man's spent an extended period of time, but I don't think our wild areas in the East are 2nd- or 3rd-rate and should be spoken of or treated as though they are in some way inferior to those anywhere else.

rafe
02-21-2008, 19:31
A good question. How about those who created it and those responsible for passing it on in a condition better than they received it?

When folks talk about speed-hikers and record setters on the AT, I mention Benton Mackaye and am invariably told that Benton is irrelevant. Benton's plan called for ridge-top communities on the AT (the trail itself was almost incidental,) but the WhiteBlaze mantra is "burn the shelters." The ATC and the National Scenic Trails Act both make more references to recreation than they do to wilderness. The same is true for Benton's original 1921 article, by the way. So once again, whose intent? Benton's, Avery's.. or their successors?


I'm not sure there's a primordial Eden anywhere man's spent an extended period of time, but I don't think our wild areas in the East are 2nd- or 3rd-rate and should be spoken of or treated as though they are in some way inferior to those anywhere else.I don't think you can compare the AT and the other two major long trails (PCT, CDT.) Worlds of difference, as I'm just beginning to appreciate.

woodsy
02-21-2008, 19:37
Should have heard the clean shaven older thru hiker complaining on and on about being refused some "magic" on the AT in Maine last summer because according to him, he was told he didn't fit the bill of a thru hiker and therefore he couldn't have any. In other words, the magic givers didn't believe him, man weren't he pissed!

jersey joe
02-21-2008, 19:39
He shouldn't have EXPECTED a handout.

woodsy
02-21-2008, 19:41
He shouldn't have EXPECTED a handout.
Exactly, see what happens?:rolleyes:

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-21-2008, 19:41
What is the rationale for refusing magic to non-thru-hikers? While I can understand not doing full-out feeds for dayhikers, multiday section hikers would seem to be as deserving as thrus. Can someone explain this to me?

The Weasel
02-21-2008, 19:42
Lawyers bill by the hour. Translation into the common vernacular:

B.S.
Get a life.
MYOB.
Get a life.
********.
The Weasel

[/quote] You want a job, Tater? Drop by. We can use you.


Well, The Weasel, I now see that the antipathy that you generate towards yourself is well-deserved. What goes around comes around, right?

Your completely erroneous characterization of my life (i.e. your statements re "Dollar Store life," "Grinch" etc.) is not only arrogant on your part, but silly. And completely out of line.

Go back and read my original post regarding Trail Magic, TW, and check my vote on the poll. You will see that not have I given to others on the trail, but that I plan on giving in the future.

So there. (Nice summation, eh!:o)

Well, my first response, BR, is this:



B.S.
Get a life.
MYOB.
Get a life.
********.
But beyond that, all right, you scumscubbing, tumstabbing, deekwalloping blaggard, you've asked for it: SILLY? YOU'RE SAYING THAT WHAT I SAID WAS SILLY??? You dare to call someone, "silly" and think that's the end of it? About how people should behave while walking the Trail? My name isn't Putey, and, by the holy lights of St. John of Cleese, don't you dare, ever, EVER, DO YOU HEAR ME? accuse me of "silly walking" or I'll sic the Ministry on you straightaway!!!

Sheesh. Get a life, or as Tater so aptly put it, "*******" (Tater, you misspelled it. It's not "********", but "*******". Please don't make this mistake again.)

TW (or, as Tater so cunningly phrases it, "The Weasel")




People who give away food on the trail do so out of kindness. Hikers who take this food are thankful for it. If a handful of people don't like it, too bad.

The Weasel
02-21-2008, 19:50
What is the rationale for refusing magic to non-thru-hikers? While I can understand not doing full-out feeds for dayhikers, multiday section hikers would seem to be as deserving as thrus. Can someone explain this to me?

FD, back in '01 I walked up to a shelter from a road about a mile, with a cold six-pack (and ice in the bag to make it colder) to the shelter, and asked who was a thru. A couple of small groups, when they saw the beer, said that they were, but a friendly question or two got them to admit they weren't. Over by a hammock a woman sat, watching, and when I went over to her and asked, she admitted she was. She got the six pack, but insisted (didn't take much) that I join her in one.

Why didn't I spread them out? That's a good question.

In my case - maybe others feel this way - someone who is attempting a thru is biting off a big chunk of self-deprivation. They're giving up all of the pleasures of home, whether it's having a cold brewski on a hot day, or some home cooked food, or the ability to drive to town, and they're planning on giving that up for months on end while doing really hard physical effort. Trail magic for them is kind of a way of saying, "I know what you're passing up, and here's a little something to say how much I admire you for it." When I'm sectioning, I'm not doing what she was doing (or what I tried to), so I think there's a difference.

But you may disagree, and I don't have a problem with that.

TW

woodsy
02-21-2008, 19:52
You want a job, Tater? Drop by. We can use you.



Well, my first response, BR, is this:


B.S.
Get a life.
MYOB.
Get a life.
********.
But beyond that, all right, you scumscubbing, tumstabbing, deekwalloping blaggard, you've asked for it: SILLY? YOU'RE SAYING THAT WHAT I SAID WAS SILLY??? You dare to call someone, "silly" and think that's the end of it? About how people should behave while walking the Trail? My name isn't Putey, and, by the holy lights of St. John of Cleese, don't you dare, ever, EVER, DO YOU HEAR ME? accuse me of "silly walking" or I'll sic the Ministry on you straightaway!!!

Sheesh. Get a life, or as Tater so aptly put it, "*******" (Tater, you misspelled it. It's not "********", but "*******". Please don't make this mistake again.)

TW (or, as Tater so cunningly phrases it, "The Weasel")[/QUOTE]

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emerald
02-21-2008, 19:52
So once again, whose intent?

I believe I already answered your question. Maybe you need to read my reply again.


I don't think you can compare the AT and the other two major long trails (PCT, CDT.) Worlds of difference, as I'm just beginning to appreciate.

Of course, you can compare them. You can compare apples, oranges and those stupid dancing bananas too!:D


I'm about to stop posting for tonight. You'll need to find another playmate. I have a book that's more interesting than anything I see here.

Pedaling Fool
02-21-2008, 19:54
This thread is a good example of why a Democracy will never work. Most are just interested in one-uping the other without the slightest attempt at an intelligent discussion.

The Weasel
02-21-2008, 19:58
WhiteBlaze User Rules/Agreement
These rules are designed to make WhiteBlaze useful and enjoyable. [/quote]


Woodsy, he called me SILLY. There are a lot of things I've been called, and while most of them are understatements, HE CALLED ME SILLY! How can it be "useful" to call me that? I mean, once that starts, the next thing could be to start saying spam spam spam spam spam Weasel is crazy spam Hello Sir can I spam spam help you?

Where will it end if it isn't stopped NOW?

TW

MOWGLI
02-21-2008, 19:59
Prolly be a good idea if everyone took a deep breath and leave the insults off the board. You're discussing trail magic. And near as I can tell, no one has been swayed either way in 215+ posts.

Whatever happened to the "kinder, gentler, Whiteblaze" you were discussing yesterday??

The Weasel
02-21-2008, 19:59
This thread is a good example of why a Democracy will never work. Most are just interested in one-uping the other without the slightest attempt at an intelligent discussion.

Take your pick. Do you want silly, or intelligent?

TW

mudhead
02-21-2008, 20:01
Should have heard the clean shaven older thru hiker complaining on and on about being refused some "magic" on the AT in Maine last summer because according to him, he was told he didn't fit the bill of a thru hiker and therefore he couldn't have any. In other words, the magic givers didn't believe him, man weren't he pissed!

Can't say I blame him. Odd world.

I am suprised that the kinder, gentler WhiteBlaze, didn't last longer.

Pedaling Fool
02-21-2008, 20:02
Take your pick. Do you want silly, or intelligent?

TW
There comes a time when you just have to know when to quit. Call it what you want, I feel stagnated here. Bye

GGS2
02-21-2008, 20:07
Should have heard the clean shaven older thru hiker complaining on and on about being refused some "magic" on the AT in Maine last summer because according to him, he was told he didn't fit the bill of a thru hiker and therefore he couldn't have any. In other words, the magic givers didn't believe him, man weren't he pissed!

That would have been MS?

I know, uncalled for. :o:( :cool: http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/gen151.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

rickb
02-21-2008, 20:10
I met a guy at the Inn at the Long Trail this past summer who was spending his vacation driving to various road crossings in his $25,000 truck handing out "Magic". I know that he was looking for Baltimore Jack, and had a notebook of people who signed in with him. He was proud to show it to me and I said that it was cool.

Nice enough guy.

I was staying at the Inn with my wife on a non-hiking weekend (St Gaudens was great, btw http://www.sgnhs.org/) as much for the chance to rub shulders with some of last year's thrus as for the breakfast. So in truth, I was something of a stalking pack sniffer.

I ended up talking to a couple section hikers but ended up leaving the thrus in peace. I am thinking that the thrus should be thanking me for that, even if it meant not scoring a free round of drinks!

IMO, Best not to come to the trail looking to dole out magic, for the most part. Plenty of more interesting people on the way for today's hikers to meet than former thru hikers looking to connect with thier fraternity years after doing thier own hike. If people connect and pass out magic by chance, that's far different than driving to the AT with the express purpose of passing out goodies to thru hikers.

Appalachian Tater
02-21-2008, 20:13
Maybe we should try for 1,000 points of light since the kinder, gentler thing isn't happening.

Tin Man
02-21-2008, 20:14
Prolly be a good idea if everyone took a deep breath and leave the insults off the board. You're discussing trail magic. And near as I can tell, no one has been swayed either way in 215+ posts.

Whatever happened to the "kinder, gentler, Whiteblaze" you were discussing yesterday??

I will go on record as being swayed.

a) I learned multiple definitions for magic.
b) I learned multiple approaches to accepting/reject magic.
c) I learned multiple approaches to giving magic.
d) I learned .... um ... er ... nothing.

But the discussion did cause me to think... a little...
I don't think I will be accepting stuff left at trail-side anymore. If I need something, I can certainly make a trip to town. No need to encourage people to abandon stuff at the road crossings.

woodsy
02-21-2008, 20:15
That would have been MS?

I know, uncalled for. :o:( :cool: http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/gen151.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

No, it wasn't MS:D can't remember his name but claimed it was his 3rd thru hike.

dixicritter
02-21-2008, 20:16
I am suprised that the kinder, gentler WhiteBlaze, didn't last longer.

It will last longer, because if they don't knock it off they'll get their posts deleted.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-21-2008, 20:17
::: Dino loans Dixi her titanium dentures :eek: :::

ed bell
02-21-2008, 20:19
Should have heard the clean shaven older thru hiker complaining on and on about being refused some "magic" on the AT in Maine last summer because according to him, he was told he didn't fit the bill of a thru hiker and therefore he couldn't have any. In other words, the magic givers didn't believe him, man weren't he pissed!This is a great post. Shows the convoluted nature of both ends. On one hand you have one party handing out "magic" to thru-hikers ONLY, directly on the AT. On the other hand you have a clean shaven thru-hiker who was left out cause his thru-hiker cred had been compromised by a fresh shave. They froze him out, and he flipped out. Thats really "magical". Strange days, indeed.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-21-2008, 20:22
I learned that TM is best done a little ways off the trail so as not to interfere with the hikes of those who would prefer not to partake.

woodsy
02-21-2008, 20:24
This is a great post. Shows the convoluted nature of both ends. On one hand you have one party handing out "magic" to thru-hikers ONLY, directly on the AT. On the other hand you have a clean shaven thru-hiker who was left out cause his thru-hiker cred had been compromised by a fresh shave. They froze him out, and he flipped out. Thats really "magical". Strange days, indeed.

I was hoping someone would take notice. Thanks ED:)
It was a conditioned response for this thru hiker to expect some magic.

Appalachian Tater
02-21-2008, 20:25
I learned that Frolicking Dinosaurs wears dentures.

I also learned that some people do feeds for thru-hikers only. I would definitely pass that right by even if thru-hiking. What is their reasoning?

Roland
02-21-2008, 20:28
It will last longer, because if they don't knock it off they'll get their posts deleted.

Dixi,

I'm sure you, and the other administrators and moderators, have better things to do with your time. When your repeated warnings are ignored, and a member continues to offend, may I suggest that their account be frozen for a period of time?

Maybe after they've been locked-out for a day, or a week, they'll be more respectful. Deleting their posts may clean-up the mess, but it doesn't seem to be an effective deterrent.

Dances with Mice
02-21-2008, 20:28
Since the thread has degerated down to one-line insults, as most threads do, I guess nobody will mind if I tell a little hiking story. This is about the last time I did 'Trail Magic'.

Each Spring for the last couple of years I've taken a week's vacation to do the Georgia Loop - AT from Springer to Slaughter Gap, Duncan Ridge to the Benton Mac, Benton Mac south to the AT. The first year I did this I did it all wrong - I took a dog and started carrying 9 days worth of food. The second year, I forget when it was but it was the trip that I met Mowgli and Youngblood on the Benton Mac, I left the pup at home and hid two food caches where the Trails intersected GA-60. One of those was Woody Gap.

Since I had parked at Winfield Scott state park I only needed a day or two's worth of food at Woody. So I stocked that cache with a couple 12-packs of beer, a couple bags of salty snacks and some chocolate cupcakes. When I hit the AT going NOBO I passed word to the other hikers about the 'Trail Magic' I had planned at Woody.

Some world record snorer at Gooch Mtn shelter convinced me to get up before dawn, pack up and head to Woody. It really PO'd me later when I read that guy's Trail Journal and he wrote that he didn't sleep that night because I was snoring too loud. Yeah, right, whatever.

Anyway, I got to Woody first and recovered my cache. As hikers filtered in I passed out drinks and snacks. We were sitting around the tables at Woody sipping beer and munching out when a deputy sheriff car pulled into the parking lot. Oh, geez.

I looked at the other hikers and there were several with beers that didn't look over 21. I hadn't asked, they hadn't said. I was worried what would happen if the deputy walked up and asked for ID's and who had provided the beer. I was really worried. I didn't have bail money on me.

The deputy sat in his car for 30 minutes. It a cold day but I was sweating. Finally he just left and I swore that I'd never do anything that stupid again.

And I haven't.

The Weasel
02-21-2008, 20:34
Great story. What was the stupid part?

TW

MOWGLI
02-21-2008, 20:34
Good story with an important lesson, thankfully not learned the hard way. And it was good meeting you that day on the flanks of Licklog Mountain.

Gray Blazer
02-21-2008, 20:36
Organized "Trail Magic" is kind of like feeding the bears. The reason you DON'T do it is because they come to expect it. And once they expect it, sooner or later they become a nuisance.


Don't feed the bears (except Yogi) Wow, BR. In the words of Vinny's cousin's friend after Vinny's opening remarks, "I want him!!"
Sorry, Weasel (I love you man).

bfitz
02-21-2008, 20:39
I was hoping someone would take notice. Thanks ED:)
It was a conditioned response for this thru hiker to expect some magic.More like he was justifiably insulted when they called him a liar.

Appalachian Tater
02-21-2008, 20:39
Great story. What was the stupid part?

TWProviding alcohol to minors in Georgia.

The Weasel
02-21-2008, 20:39
Don't feed the bears (except Yogi) Wow, BR. In the words of Vinny's cousin's friend after Vinny's opening remarks, "I want him!!"
Sorry, Weasel (I love you man).

de nada, Blazer. :sun

TW

minnesotasmith
02-21-2008, 20:42
Should have heard the clean shaven older thru hiker complaining on and on about being refused some "magic" on the AT in Maine last summer because according to him, he was told he didn't fit the bill of a thru hiker and therefore he couldn't have any. In other words, the magic givers didn't believe him, man weren't he pissed!

1) I have never done anything like that. I have always endeavored to be gracious to anyone that is helping hikers, even if they're not helping me. Doing that would IMO be akin to yelling at a driver that gave a ride to 2 other hikers, but didn't feel he also had room for me; it hardly would encourage them to aid other hikers in the future.

2) When I have had the luck to run across a beverage in a stream, or food in a hanging bag, I take responsiblity for the trash it generates. Sure, apple cores may get flung deep into the woods, but paper either gets packed out or burned to ash in a fire ring, while metal and glass all go with me til I can get to a proper trash receptacle.

3) The suits at the ATC (more concerned with "image" and fundraising than the fate of individual hikers IMO) speak only for themselves on trail magic, as long as any mess is ultimately picked up by someone involved in the TM, either TA or hiker. I didn't vote for them, or get to vote directly on the TM policy issue. I vote for Trail Angel Mary and the like over some MBA who spends more time in D.C. than he does on the AT (let alone defending his POV on an open forum like WB). I say this as a new ATC member.

The Weasel
02-21-2008, 20:44
Providing alcohol to minors in Georgia.

Tater, I think you know what I was saying. I hope so. ;)

TW

The Weasel
02-21-2008, 20:46
1) I have never done anything like that. I have always endeavored to be gracious to anyone that is helping hikers, even if they're not helping me. Doing that would IMO be akin to yelling at a driver that gave a ride to 2 other hikers, but didn't feel he also had room for me; it hardly would encourage them to aid other hikers in the future.

2) When I have had the luck to run across a beverage in a stream, or food in a hanging bag, I take responsiblity for the trash it generates. Sure, apple cores may get flung deep into the woods, but paper either gets packed out or burned to ash in a fire ring, while metal and glass all go with me til I can get to a proper trash receptacle.

3) The suits at the ATC (more concerned with "image" and fundraising than the fate of individual hikers IMO) speak only for themselves on trail magic, as long as any mess is ultimately picked up by someone involved in the TM, either TA or hiker. I didn't vote for them, or get to vote directly on the TM policy issue. I vote for Trail Angel Mary and the like over some MBA who spends more time in D.C. than he does on the AT (let alone defending his POV on an open forum like WB). I say this as a new ATC member.

Applause.

TW

ed bell
02-21-2008, 20:48
I say this as a new ATC member.WTG MS. I still say TM should stand for Trail Maintenance.:cool:
Gotta have the priorities straight.

Gray Blazer
02-21-2008, 20:51
de nada, Blazer. :sun

TW
If you don't dazzle them, you're supposed to baffle them, right?

ed bell
02-21-2008, 20:53
More like he was justifiably insulted when they called him a liar.And thats the other convoluted end of the equation.:-?

bfitz
02-21-2008, 20:58
And thats the other convoluted end of the equation.:-?Common courtesy is the issue here, not trail magic.

woodsy
02-21-2008, 21:06
Common courtesy is the issue here, not trail magic.
Interpret it how you will. I spoke directly with the man, he was very distraught over not getting some of that food, that was his big issue.

The Weasel
02-21-2008, 21:09
If you don't dazzle them, you're supposed to baffle them, right?

Shhhhh! The gulls are listening!:D

TW

ed bell
02-21-2008, 21:14
Common courtesy is the issue here, not trail magic.You are correct to an extent. The thread is about "trail magic" good or bad. All involved in woodsy's example acted poorly and it involved so called "trail magic". I keep thinking back to the spontaneous nature of what I believe to be trail magic. This example had none of that and turned out poorly. I merely wish that people are mindful of these issues.