View Full Version : What good is a GPS?
I feel like a flaming reactionary sometimes. I was years late with cell phones, digital cameras, and internal-frame packs, and still don't own an iPod. Now I'm wondering about a GPS. They're all the rage, I guess. I just got some email from DeLorme -- some rebate offer on a fancy GPS.
Seriously, what can you do with them? Are they more than toys? How reliable are they? How reliable is the signal? How long do they go on a set of batteries?
How do you pick one? I'm guessing they're more useful on a trail like the PCT or CDT than the AT.
Midway Sam
02-22-2008, 13:57
Not needed for hiking. A lot of fun to play with. Most useful when Geocaching:
www.geocaching.com (http://www.geocaching.com)
I have one, use it quite a bit for navigating around towns I'm not familiar with (hook it to a laptop and use MS Streets & Trips). I used to geocache a lot but that got old. I used to take my GPSr with me when I hiked but it gave me nothing a map and a guidebook didn't already give me.
Footslogger
02-22-2008, 14:00
Original post removed -- misread the thread title
GratefulHike
02-22-2008, 14:02
i can't speak for all gps's but I have a garmin vista cx. I am super happy with it and it has actually saved my but on the trail once. long story short, I was with a group and we got off trail after about 5 miles of aimlessly walking around I took control and got us back on track.
Batteries well that is kind of the bummer, I get about 20 hours out of 2AA batteries. I guess overall not too bad.
As far as signal goes, they only time I really have a problem is in the thick of summer when all the leaves are out and even then I may loose signal from time to time but always have it enough to track where I have been and where I am going.
Ever run into the people on the trail who ask how far to "X"? With the GPS it isn't a question, you always have an idea of how close you are. Also it is great for understanding your pace. I know if I have to hike 18 miles in a day and I have 9 hours of light that I need to keep my average pace of at least 2mph.
My two cents... I am sure many will say to get a compass and a map, but I am the lazier person that doesn't want to take that time to do it.
RenoRoamer
02-22-2008, 14:06
For the AT, certainly not needed. Extraordinarily valuable in some situations. The main use is to get a fix of where you are to within 10 meters or so, so you can find yourself on a map when there is no trail and finding yourself on the map isn't possible using map and compass (such as heavy fog or blizzard conditions, or all the mountains look the same, or there are no mountains to triangulate from, etc). For simply locating yourself, all you need is something like the Garmin Foretrex 101, which weighs under 3 oz including 2 AA batteries and lasts about 12 hours on those batteries. Assuming you only use the GPS 5 times a day (I seldom use it that often) to get a fix, and each fix takes 1 minutes to obtain and then locate on the map (which is reasonable), then the GPS will last 144 days.
Fancier GPS's are mostly unnecessary, since you have to bring a map and compass anyway in difficult terrain and a topo map is easier to read than the screen of a GPS.
Hikes in Rain
02-22-2008, 14:12
As a fellow Luddite, I share the same confusion with a little story of hiking with a couple of high-tech buddies. The loop trail we were on came out on a gravel road, and of course, the question was "which way to the car?" Neither of my buddies' GPS's could get a lock, so I smugly brought out the old antique analog navigational system (paper map).
"OK, guys, can you at least tell me which way's north?"
"uh.......no."
Out came the second analog navigational device (magnetic compass), and five minutes later, there was the car, just over the hill to our right.
They do look like a lot of fun, though, so......
It is a tool like anything else. Sometimes it is a useful tool, other times other tools are better.
Great for desert hiking, wide open spaces and whiteouts.
Good in solving the "WT Bleep" am I factor.
Sometimes easier than a map/compass..sometimes more putzing around and takes longer than a map/compass. Probably limited use on the AT.
Mags, what about GPS on the western long trails?
No Belay
02-22-2008, 14:26
Use mine mostly for bushwacking and blue blazing but it's nice to have on the AT for nightime hiking when you gotta be some place but can't see the landmarks. The newer Garmins are fantastic at aquiring and locking. I can lock in my house with my new Vista.
doggiebag
02-22-2008, 14:33
I had to bushwack around a swollen river which I was unable to ford and I had to go through dense underbrush to make it to a road - the few times that I really needed my GPS was more than enough reason for me to carry one when I'm in unfamiliar territories and if there's a danger of bad weather (whiteouts ... etc.) Sometimes you have to bail out. My Garmin 60Csx loaded with the US topos has never failed me yet.
Mags, what about GPS on the western long trails?
I used a map and compass only on the CDT. Others did use a GPS and found it useful. YMMV.
barefoot
02-22-2008, 15:02
I carry one only for emergencies. I mark the car so I can get back to it if needed. I lead a church teenage group every summer on the AT. Last year a girl fell on Hump Mountain and sprained her ankle bad enough that we had to call for help. I was explaining to the rescue people where we were on the trail but when I told them the exact coordinates it was great. Pinpointed us exactly. The lady on the other end of the phone was so appreciative that I had it. She said often people call but have no idea where they are.
Adding to barefoot's post:
If emergency resources are called in, ie. helicopter, it sure makes the pilot's job easier with some coordinates
As a fellow Luddite, I share the same confusion with a little story of hiking with a couple of high-tech buddies. The loop trail we were on came out on a gravel road, and of course, the question was "which way to the car?" Neither of my buddies' GPS's could get a lock, so I smugly brought out the old antique analog navigational system (paper map).
"OK, guys, can you at least tell me which way's north?"
"uh.......no."
Out came the second analog navigational device (magnetic compass), and five minutes later, there was the car, just over the hill to our right.
They do look like a lot of fun, though, so......Ha ha. Funny. Of course it only works if you already knew which way the car was (north of the point where you hit the road). If you hit the raod and did not know whether the car was to the norht or south of you, the map would have been less useful. (And the GPS would have been less useful also unless they made a waypoint of where the car was when they parked it or the trailhead was on the GPS map.)
But really, two GPSs that could not get a lock in the open on a road on a hill? Methinks you embellish a bit.
Maps are good most of the time (when you know where you are), and GPSs are good most of the time (when you get a signal).
Maps are pretty useless if you are in a whiteout, dense fog, a dark night, or the wind is blowing 60 mph. GPS is not needed if you can see mountains, streams, roads, etc and can place them on a map and can fix your position by them.
But whiteout, dense fog, and night-time aside, it is rare that you don't know where you are (i.e., cannot see a geopgraphic feature you can use to place yourself on a map), and it is rare not to get a lock unless in a deep canyon or under heavy tre cover with wet leaves, but both conditions happen.
Seriously, no situation is perfect for every position finding system. What you need for the Shennies in August and the Whites in February are not the same. As someone said, GPSs, compasses and maps are tools. THey are as good as the user and the situation.
p.s. You are not a Luddite. Lots of people are slow to accept new things and cling to the old, but that doesn't make them Luddites. You can use your computer and internet connection to check it out:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/luddite
I feel like a flaming reactionary sometimes. I was years late with cell phones, digital cameras, and internal-frame packs, and still don't own an iPod. Now I'm wondering about a GPS. They're all the rage, I guess. I just got some email from DeLorme -- some rebate offer on a fancy GPS.
Seriously, what can you do with them? Are they more than toys? How reliable are they? How reliable is the signal? How long do they go on a set of batteries?
How do you pick one? I'm guessing they're more useful on a trail like the PCT or CDT than the AT.
I still haven't got a cell phone, and I only converted to an internal frame pack after my old Kelty blew out of the back of a pickup and was run over. But I've been converted to digital cameras, and a year ago I bought the Delorme GPS that they are promoting in the letter you got.
I find it is much easier to use than a Garmin that I experimented with. I can't think of any useful chore my Delorme might perform on a well-marked trail. It is handy for bushwhacking, however.
I use mine mostly to document the boundaries of lands our town land trust is interested in buying. And most importantly it is very useful for creating maps of trails that we build on protected lands.
Weary
You don't need one if you know how to use map and compass, and have a good map in hand when you need it.
GPS units are nice toys/tools. They are fun and can be useful, and do a much better and quicker job than map and compass "pinpointing" your position, and helping calculate "how far, how high, how fast."
Though many trips I leave it at home, I have a Garmin GPSMap60CS, which I use when I am trying to keep track of precisely "how far, how high, how fast." I do not consult it much for "where am I?" I find it most useful as a trekking computer: I have a dashboard that gives me the following information:
Time of day
Time of sunset
Distance traveled
Pace (mph)
Current altitude
Total altitude gained (lost)
I mark waypoints/locations for where there is water, and where nice campsites are so i can return to them.
I also use it to download to my computer the track of where I have been so that I have a visual record.
I can't see how one would be useful on the PCT unless you were very early and fighting a lot of snow. Most PCT hikers carry maps but no compasses.
a year ago I bought the Delorme GPS that they are promoting in the letter you got.
I find it is much easier to use than a Garmin that I experimented with. I can't think of any useful chore my Delorme might perform on a well-marked trail. It is handy for bushwhacking, however.
I use mine mostly to document the boundaries of lands our town land trust is interested in buying. And most importantly it is very useful for creating maps of trails that we build on protected lands.
I bought the same DeLorme and also received use of a Garmin 60CSx last year. I don't bother with the weight on a marked trail but I find the GPS almost indispensable for scouting or creating new paths anymore.
I find the new Garmin much easier to use and much more reliable acquiring and keeping signals than the DeLorme, I had a couple of defects (DeLorme did eventually correct one), I find the Garmin maps much faster refreshing, about as accurate as the DeLorme, and the Garmin's field battery life is much longer. Consequently as I mentioned in another thread, I would not buy the DeLorme unit again.
However map interfaces are subject very much to user preference. I find an old fashioned GIS a lot easier to use than Google Earth - but perhaps I'm conditioned by 15 years of GIS work. :D
I live in Blairsville, but I got a GPS to help me get around in Atlanta. I am glad that I am smart enough to find my way home because the GPS doesn't know where I live. According to it, when I am in my driveway I still have another 1.5 miles to go down roads that don't exist.
I bought mine for street navigation. I have to go into some areas that are not easy to find and some that are pretty shady, and I want to get the fastest route outta there!
Second purpose is for geocaching. I dont go after the urban caches, but the ones in the woods/on trails.
I have used many of the other features just for statistical reasons... altitude, distance covered, traveling speed...
I have also used it to make maps of trails in new areas that were previously uncharted.
I like to moon charts too! Ive also used it to measure area, 2 family farms, gets you pretty accurate info. (yes, we have the surveys, but we wanted to know how much was pasture, woods, water...)
I live in Blairsville, but I got a GPS to help me get around in Atlanta. I am glad that I am smart enough to find my way home because the GPS doesn't know where I live. According to it, when I am in my driveway I still have another 1.5 miles to go down roads that don't exist.
Not sure what thats all about, but maybe just an updated map set would help with that problem. My street just made it into maps on the Garmin NT (08) version.
Wolf - 23000
02-22-2008, 21:40
On a normal AT hike a GPS is not needed. The only time I found one use full is while doing the New England states in the winter. During my Maine winter it came in handy several times finding the trail. It can be difficult trying to follow white blaze when everything around you is white, exceptionally if the blazes are under several feet on snow.
Note to Mags and other winter hikers out there. A whiteout is a poor time to rely solely on a GPS. In a bad whiteout a GPS is not always able to get a good signal to be helpfully.
Wolf
I am not very tech savy. I use a map and compass on our local trails that sometimes need one. I took a class and that was helpful. I am not critical of the GPS and my friends use them for geocaching, but I don't want to spend the money on something I am not very comfortable using in the woods.
GratefulHike
02-22-2008, 23:22
Erin your comment is perfect. If you don't know how to really use a GPS defintely don't bring it. I have had occasions with people (gearheads) with GPSs and the only reason they have one is cause it is cool. Using a GPS propely isn't something you learn the first time you use it. you have to use it regularly and be familiar with it. i love mine and would recommend all to have one, but don't count on it until you have used it a few dozen times on the trail.
orangebug
02-22-2008, 23:30
Not sure what thats all about, but maybe just an updated map set would help with that problem. My street just made it into maps on the Garmin NT (08) version.I've had the same experience driving with a Tom-Tom. They haven't updated maps in several months. Doesn't know exchanges on I-40 in NC. Thinks I'm in a field while driving in SW GA. Tells me to turn around on one-way streets. Often cannot find smaller streets in parts of Atlanta I only visit when dropping off Christmas meals to shut-ins.
I am not sure that the technology is all that good yet.
take-a-knee
02-22-2008, 23:34
Erin your comment is perfect. If you don't know how to really use a GPS defintely don't bring it. I have had occasions with people (gearheads) with GPSs and the only reason they have one is cause it is cool. Using a GPS propely isn't something you learn the first time you use it. you have to use it regularly and be familiar with it. i love mine and would recommend all to have one, but don't count on it until you have used it a few dozen times on the trail.
So true, I bought one and took it deer hunting, it took most of my spare time over the next week to figure that thing out. They are not self-explanatory, you need to read the manual before you use it, and use it before you have to depend on it. Also, if anyone says they are a replacement for a papermap and compass (and the requisite skills) they are FOS, just ignore them 'cause they don't have a clue.
I will say that I am very comfortable with a gps in the woods. I like and use topo maps, but using a compass blows my mind!
Erin's comment is right on. My first one was by Magellan. Nothing wrong with it, I just didnt understand it. Returned it for a Garmin and that was all it took. I never read the manual, its pretty self explanatory, even for someone like me. Now that I have topo maps uploaded, I'll take the gps (with spare batteries) over map and compass any day. BUT, that is just my preference, not saying that is the only way or the right way!
Note to Mags and other winter hikers out there. A whiteout is a poor time to rely solely on a GPS. In a bad whiteout a GPS is not always able to get a good signal to be helpfully.
Wolf
I know that Wolf; but thanks for the reminder.
fiddlehead
02-23-2008, 01:00
Didn't read all the posts, but am using one for something very useful here in Phuket.
I am working on designing a trail over the high peaks of Phuket (a 30 mile long island in southern Thailand) I am using google earth to look at the topography and plan my route.
Then i am going to upload the route to my GPS and go out and actually follow the route. See where it goes, who's land? How many pineapple fields, rubber plantations, jungle, banana plantations, etc. that it goes through.
I can skirt some of these places (perhaps) and create a new route, bring it back to my computer, put it on google earth, and propose it to the Thailand Dept. of Tourism. (the trail, when i finish, should be close to 100 miles including swithbacks and traverses)
Anyway, that is the plan. I have been using Gps for lots of things ever since my first thru-hike of the CDT in 98 and have found little alleys in Bangkok (where my wife's sister lives) , secret ways into my wife's home up in Issan (northeast Thailand), remembered secret places i've found all over the world. (sorry, not giving those out) and well.....................
The limitations of uses for a gps are probably because you haven't figured out how to hook it up to your topo mapping program on your computer yet. The world is waiting. call it a toy, call it a tool, just go see for yourself all the uses. (ever been in a canoe on a really big lake and trying to figure out which island is which, or even if it is an island?)
I have an old one which has: an altimeter, sunrise and sunset for this place in time, create a route, follow a route, mark a spot, find a spot. The new ones have maps (full color) built into them. I am too cheap and just do my work on the computer and upload the route to my $60 (ebay) etrex.
My brother uses his to know how far away he is to any of the campsites on the Grand Canyon (he's kayaked it 4 times now) as he knows how much sun each one has at that time of year, etc. Or which rapids are coming up with a map of the rapid that he can explain (and show) to people which way is the safest (or most hairiest) way to run it. Or any whitewater canoe or kayak or raft trip.
I've used them in the Himalayas with old Chinese army maps (65,000 to 1 scale maps) , in the Pyrenees with maps based on the Paris meridian, as a sailing tool in the shallow waters of the Bahamas along with a magazine article on how to find secret entrances to otherwise unavailable coves. Used in conjunction with google earth, there are not many limitations anymore.
For the AT, basically "where you are" in relation to whatever it is you want to know about; town, shelters, water sources, your start, your projected finish, roads, blah blah, blah. (want to do a dayhike on a trail you've never been to? somewhere like Lye Brook? Find where you want to hike on google earth, point the cursor, read the lat/lon, enter it into your gps, and go find it.
Probably hundreds of other uses but these are some that i've used already
And for those who say it is a joke and they can triangulate, well, i've been in whiteouts where you cannot. and i can (know where i am)
I have a sextant too, but haven't used it lately.
I have a Garmin 76CSx, it's a little bulky for hiking but is very powerful. I use it mostly off shore while fishing and on land occasionally while hunting a new area.
The GPS is invaluable on the water, but mostly a conveinience on land. My compass nav skills are pretty good, but like has been mentioned several times, compass nav is pretty useless in a white out!!...
The AT is so well marked, that I can't see needing a GPS there, but I certainly know the benifits of having one bushwhacking or in any unmarked and unfamiliar area....
As a fellow Luddite, I share the same confusion with a little story of hiking with a couple of high-tech buddies. The loop trail we were on came out on a gravel road, and of course, the question was "which way to the car?" Neither of my buddies' GPS's could get a lock, so I smugly brought out the old antique analog navigational system (paper map).
"OK, guys, can you at least tell me which way's north?"
"uh.......no."
Out came the second analog navigational device (magnetic compass), and five minutes later, there was the car, just over the hill to our right.
They do look like a lot of fun, though, so......
This is as far into the thread i read. All you need to know right there.
GPS can be fun, though....stand on top of Mtn., move unit up & down, watch elevation change.
Toolshed
02-23-2008, 08:58
Terrapin, I got a Garmin Vista back in 2002 (Thought I was late to the craze then) and then just upgradd to a Garmin 76CSx. To me it is a toy, I have fun with it, it makes my hikes more intersting and by using the new Topo-2008 upgrade, I load all my hikes onto Google Earth and keep them stored and ready to pull up at anytime, along with all of my waypionts and favorites (which you can demarcate and save in your GPS).
It really helped me once when I was hiking up the backside of Soapstone Mountain in Quabbin and thought I had turned the wrong way.
I also use it on my road bike. I like knowing my ups and downs.
I taped it to my lawn mower and found out miles, average speed... I then uploaded the mower tracks to Google earth and I can now see my 4.5 acres light up like a christmas tree from 100 miles up.
It also helps on the highway with small children planning rest stops and such.
My question is semi-serious. For the AT, the White Blazes are mostly sufficient. But now I've got my sights on the PCT. Unfortunately, not a thru-hike. But I have the general impression that the western trails are a lot wilder and not as well-marked.
One big question I have with GPSs is the quality of the maps, and the usability of the maps, what with the tiny screen. Besides any nice screen sucks up power, which means short battery life... sigh.
take-a-knee
02-23-2008, 11:13
My question is semi-serious. For the AT, the White Blazes are mostly sufficient. But now I've got my sights on the PCT. Unfortunately, not a thru-hike. But I have the general impression that the western trails are a lot wilder and not as well-marked.
One big question I have with GPSs is the quality of the maps, and the usability of the maps, what with the tiny screen. Besides any nice screen sucks up power, which means short battery life... sigh.
You've already figured it out yourself Terrapin, that's why you can't ditch the paper map, the GPS can only help you locate yourself on said map. Also, you have to make sure your GPS unit and your mapsheet are set to the same datum, IE NAD 27 or WGS 84. Here is a good link to peruse:
http://www.kifaru.net/GPSing.htm
The other navigation articles at Kifaru's site are also excellent.
Wise Old Owl
02-23-2008, 13:20
My choice is the Garmin Vista HCX after a lot of reading up on various models. I had two cheaper units years ago from different manufactures. Yes I can read a map and take a compass as a fall back in case the unit batteries, and backup batteries dies.
From reading several posts about other people’s experiences on the AT that a GPS is not necessary, I have noticed a few lost hikers from time to time from taking the wrong trail or just a wrong turn. There seems to be a problem following white blazes. From my own experience of walking the AT, I had followed a jeep trail called Rim Road near the top of Mt Minsi for several miles, when it took an unexpected turn down the mountain, I didn’t know I was already off trail. I turned on the GPS and in less then two minutes it told me not to go down the mountain, but plow through the underbrush directly ahead to pick up the trail to get to Kirkridge Shelter. The GPS is there to remove the confusion.
On a separate trip going north out of Port Clinton, I came upon a very elderly woman going NOBO and I tried to talk to her a little, she was tired, hungry, confused and bitter. She claimed she left Port Clinton two days ago and she was less than two miles from the town. I gave her my sandwich and discovered she was doing the entire trip without maps and she had been lost several times. She was not in good mental health. Although, I was just “showing an interest in conversation” she became confrontational and I moved on.
GPS set up properly can show water sources, distance to the next shelter, show the best way to get to a nearby road. The system will tell you when to expect sunset, and trail towns. Using other tools such as Google Earth will tell you the Lat/Long of a friends house. You can put the waypoint with a title into the system so you can get there from the trail. If you get into nasty weather and you need to figure out if hiking back to the car or pressing forward to the next section the system will help you make the best decision.
After the hike I print the bread crumb picture off of National Geographic Topo with an altitude picture of my hike and pick the best of 4 or 6 digital photos. I drop them into a three ring binder for memories later. Two of those binders are now three inches thick.
A properly programmed GPS will take up less space and be lighter than all the maps you would take for a NOBO.
My question is semi-serious. For the AT, the White Blazes are mostly sufficient. But now I've got my sights on the PCT. Unfortunately, not a thru-hike. But I have the general impression that the western trails are a lot wilder and not as well-marked.
One big question I have with GPSs is the quality of the maps, and the usability of the maps, what with the tiny screen. Besides any nice screen sucks up power, which means short battery life... sigh.
Sans the white blazes the PCT is a fairly easy trail to follow. It's marked with emblems, posts and ax cuts. When in doubt, use the guidebooks and databook.
Wise Old Owl
02-23-2008, 13:34
As a fellow Luddite, I share the same confusion with a little story of hiking with a couple of high-tech buddies. The loop trail we were on came out on a gravel road, and of course, the question was "which way to the car?" Neither of my buddies' GPS's could get a lock, so I smugly brought out the old antique analog navigational system (paper map).
"OK, guys, can you at least tell me which way's north?"
"uh.......no."
Out came the second analog navigational device (magnetic compass), and five minutes later, there was the car, just over the hill to our right.
They do look like a lot of fun, though, so......
Yep, They didn't read the instructions, on the cheaper models if you are standing around they won't read north. If you are walking forward in a straight line they give the option of Magnetic North or True North. They can even give the degree direction. The Vista model will tell you the correct information just standing around.
The real mistake here is we all just see the blaze from the parking lot turn these things on and run into the woods. I have had to re-train my elderly hiking partner to stop that and wait two minutes by the car. So I can fire it up and put the waypoint in.
Wise Old Owl
02-23-2008, 13:58
So true, I bought one and took it deer hunting, it took most of my spare time over the next week to figure that thing out. They are not self-explanatory, you need to read the manual before you use it, and use it before you have to depend on it. Also, if anyone says they are a replacement for a papermap and compass (and the requisite skills) they are FOS, just ignore them 'cause they don't have a clue.
Take-a-Knee that was really refreshing, I am not a gearhead, but after several years of using different models I stuffed all the topo maps into the unit and have become quite competent at not having to take a map each time. I still tell others to take a map & compass. You might not be familiar with the new handheld units. They have upgradable memory and can hold all the detail one could want.
take-a-knee
02-23-2008, 14:22
Take-a-Knee that was really refreshing, I am not a gearhead, but after several years of using different models I stuffed all the topo maps into the unit and have become quite competent at not having to take a map each time. I still tell others to take a map & compass. You might not be familiar with the new handheld units. They have upgradable memory and can hold all the detail one could want.
When they come out with one with a holographic projection screen that is at least 12in. by 24in. that charges itself from the sun in about twenty minutes and costs less than $100 I might be interested in totally relying on it. I've taught land navigation to soldiers on three continents, my unit bought the old magellen green box GPS units when they first came out in the eighties, I've used army PLUGGERS (POS!), this ain't my first rodeo
The company I worked for in Iraq bought Garmin V units for our trucks, we still had to use maps 'cause the screen was too small to remain ground oriented. A friend who worked for Triple Canopy was issued Garmin Legend handhelds, same result, you had to have a map also.
. Anytime anyone asserts that the mapping screen on a handheld GPS is a substitute for a paper map they have demonstrated to all who truly understand land navigation that they not only do not know how to terrain associate, they don't even know what it means, ergo, when that GPS can't get a fix, you will become hopelessly lost. A battery powered map, how incredibly stupid.
Wise Old Owl
02-23-2008, 16:10
yea, OK I see where you are coming from and we still are talking about two vary different things, The old Garmin V's are 2002 and the Legend is the one I just retired. The 2008 models can hold almost a DVD of Topo terrain on the latest Vista color HCX. There are some things I don't like about it, But all in all they have worked out almost all the bugs. We are comparing an Edsel with a Audi. 1st versions of anything will have problems.
As for the screen size I agree with you. For driving I use something completely different, a reasonably new laptop and Microsoft Streets & Trips software with GPS sensor. This is better quality than all the stuff I have seen out there that comes built into the cars. A 15" screen and a V inverter gets the job done. Very powerful software that allows me to avoid jams, meet cleints and go to places that I completely unfamiliar with.
As for the batteries, you wouldn't go out into the bush without a second set for your flashlight would you?
I am not trying to argue here, but presenting a different point of view. I did say I would always recommend a map. I do wonder why you make statements like "FOS", "don't have a clue" and "incredibly stupid" or was that to bait someone?
take-a-knee
02-23-2008, 16:36
yea, OK I see where you are coming from and we still are talking about two vary different things, The old Garmin V's are 2002 and the Legend is the one I just retired. The 2008 models can hold almost a DVD of Topo terrain on the latest Vista color HCX. There are some things I don't like about it, But all in all they have worked out almost all the bugs. We are comparing an Edsel with a Audi. 1st versions of anything will have problems.
As for the screen size I agree with you. For driving I use something completely different, a reasonably new laptop and Microsoft Streets & Trips software with GPS sensor. This is better quality than all the stuff I have seen out there that comes built into the cars. A 15" screen and a V inverter gets the job done. Very powerful software that allows me to avoid jams, meet cleints and go to places that I completely unfamiliar with.
As for the batteries, you wouldn't go out into the bush without a second set for your flashlight would you?
I am not trying to argue here, but presenting a different point of view. I did say I would always recommend a map. I do wonder why you make statements like "FOS", "don't have a clue" and "incredibly stupid" or was that to bait someone?
I apologize to you Owl,my mistake, I thought you were on the "no map" bandwagon, there are many WB'ers on that wagon and I think that is not only unsound advice, but dangerous to boot. I've been hanging around here for less than a year and I've seen beaucoup "no-map" advocates.
Yes, I always try to pack extra batteries, and many times, before I started packing lithiums for spares, they weren't any good.
Andrew Skurka completed the "Great Western Loop" last year with on of those rudimentery Garmin wrist mount GPS units. I have paddling friends who swear by those newer units you refer too, they are cool, but I don't see the need. The same guys won't buy a decent paddle, to each his own. Again I apologize.
Wise Old Owl
02-23-2008, 16:50
apology accepted - earlier you mentioned wanting a Holographic model with a 20 inch screen for under a hundred dollars.
Here it is - you will need a laptop and a Voltage inverter
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5913672
As I said it is unbelivably good here in the US and Canada, Maps are available for overseas.
I taped it to my lawn mower and found out miles, average speed... I then uploaded the mower tracks to Google earth and I can now see my 4.5 acres light up like a christmas tree from 100 miles up.
.
Now why didnt I think of that?!?!
One big question I have with GPSs is the quality of the maps, and the usability of the maps, what with the tiny screen. Besides any nice screen sucks up power, which means short battery life... sigh.
Depends on the type of map... street maps are updated almost annually and the topo's, while updated, how much can they change? (unless you live with Cali quakes!)
For the woods, the 60 csx screen size is fine. For car nav. I use both the handheld or the laptop, outfitted with Delorme gps sensor on the dash. I dont think anything can beat a 17" screen!
Depends on the type of map... street maps are updated almost annually and the topo's, while updated, how much can they change? (unless you live with Cali quakes!)
For the woods, the 60 csx screen size is fine. For car nav. I use both the handheld or the laptop, outfitted with Delorme gps sensor on the dash. I dont think anything can beat a 17" screen!
The 60CSx has pretty good battery life, I can get 3-4 days out of 2 AA alkalines with the unit on all day. I can get 3-4 HOURS out of my DeLorme Earthmate PN-20 with 2 AA alkalines, which is still better than the 2-3 HOURS I get with 4 AA alkalines in the old Garmin GPS 12 and GPS 12 XL I used before last year.
One peeve I have with the 60CSx maps - they seem to have grabbed a horrendously old road file for the associated maps. I was driving to Big Schloss and saw the VA back road weave around quite a bit more than what I was driving with the same number, based on the homes and driveways on the road I was on it must have been quite a while since VDOT straightened that road. Further down in VA they had VA 56 coming out west of US 11 to I-81 - it doesn't, now. (Wonder if they had too much trouble with truckers trying that road along the Tye River...)
I guess if they put all the GPS functions together they just wouldn't sell as many. :D
Oh yeah (now that I can edit, might as well!) - even topo does change, perhaps the USGS didn't get it right to start with (I've seen that), or there's been a lot of mining (that's affected something I've had to do, too), or on one project I'm dealing with for work, PENNDOT decided to move a mountain over for a new expressway rather than condemn houses so that's screwed up my township-level topographic analysis...
Oh yeah (now that I can edit, might as well!) - even topo does change, perhaps the USGS didn't get it right to start with (I've seen that), or there's been a lot of mining (that's affected something I've had to do, too), or on one project I'm dealing with for work, PENNDOT decided to move a mountain over for a new expressway rather than condemn houses so that's screwed up my township-level topographic analysis...
Hmm, didnt think of those reasons. Thanks!
Depends on the type of map... street maps are updated almost annually and the topo's, while updated, how much can they change? (unless you live with Cali quakes!)
For the woods, the 60 csx screen size is fine. For car nav. I use both the handheld or the laptop, outfitted with Delorme gps sensor on the dash. I dont think anything can beat a 17" screen!
My concern (for now) is mostly for use on the trail. I'm thinking, these things have such a tiny screen, how useful can they be for following a topo map while hiking? It would be nice to see a few "in action" before taking the plunge.
It would be nice to see a few "in action" before taking the plunge.
Find any geocacher in your area, Im sure theyd be glad to show you!
take-a-knee
02-23-2008, 20:43
My concern (for now) is mostly for use on the trail. I'm thinking, these things have such a tiny screen, how useful can they be for following a topo map while hiking? It would be nice to see a few "in action" before taking the plunge.
You need to learn to locate a point on a USGS map using the lat/long scales on the margin of the map. You'll need a straight edge (or a piece of small string). I'll see if I can find a link somewhere to illustrate it. It takes a little while, it does for me anyway.
The easiest way is to have maps with grids. TOPO for example will allow you to overlay your maps with UTM grids when you print them, then set your GPS's datum to UTM and plot the coordinates. Left to right first, then bottom to top (right then up).
Hmm. Looks like most of the ATC maps do not have proper grids. Bummer. How about the PCT maps? Anybody know?
fiddlehead
02-23-2008, 22:21
Most PCTers just use the guidebook maps. (as far as i know, haven't hiked it since 2002)
It may be wise to buy the 3 map set for the JMT as that part of the trail (especially this coming hiking season) is more than likely going to be under snow. (huge snows in the Sierras this year so far.)
A GPS would come in handy when the trail is snow covered.
Most of the time, when i was in doubt, you look for footprints. ( unless you are in the lead.)
YOu will learn to tell all your friends from their footprints, who walked in front of who, when someone left the trail for water, which route they took on the alternate's, etc.
An altimeter comes in handy a lot on that trail too. The guidebook will say something like: turn left at an old jeep road at 7,640' elevation. You may cross 3 or 4 old jeep roads climbing up to that elevation but the altimeter can help you pick the right one. I used to set my altimeter alarm and then just relax and enjoy the scenery and not worry about turning until the alarm went off (set it for a few hundred feet less than your point because accuracy is within 200' in my experience depending on weather changes) Learn to set the altimeter every day to keep it close. These are on many watches anymore as well as gps.
Wise Old Owl
02-24-2008, 11:46
My concern (for now) is mostly for use on the trail. I'm thinking, these things have such a tiny screen, how useful can they be for following a topo map while hiking? It would be nice to see a few "in action" before taking the plunge.
Ok is there a good Outfitter near you? I happen to know my REI has a monthly introduction and detailed discussion about connectivity and maps. It is a good place to start before buying.
Ok is there a good Outfitter near you? I happen to know my REI has a monthly introduction and detailed discussion about connectivity and maps. It is a good place to start before buying.
REI is not too far away. I'm usually in the store every few months or so. The local EMS is gone... I never figured out how they survived.
Toolshed
02-24-2008, 12:00
REI is not too far away. I'm usually in the store every few months or so. The local EMS is gone... I never figured out how they survived.
Worcester Mall? Marlboro is still there right?
I go to the one in Reading, by Lake Quannapowitt. about 10-15 miles as the crow flies. I was there a couple weekends ago for the $0.83 sale, picked up some trinkets.
Wise Old Owl
02-24-2008, 12:58
Well thats a little less than what I would have to travel and I know they post the training and info stuff on their website. They do have a good turnout. I went after reading up and purchasing my latest model to see if I could pick up some ideas of stuff I don't know about. - I would still recommend going.
I've hiked through snow-packed mountains (Absaroka, Wind Rivers, Sierras, San Juans, north Norway in Winter) where there was no visible trail. A great place for a GPS? Only if you don't understand how contour lines on a map work. I never needed a GPS for this.
In really flat country, choked with brush (like coastal Carolina pine forest and marshland), a compass and pace count work just as well.
Does GPS help if you make an unfortunate mistake? Often yes. But you have to be able to read and understand the coordinate systems along the edges of the map to be helped.
A GPS without solid map skills is mostly just a toy.
I have found ONE place and time when I was happy to have GPS. Times when I have arranged for pick-ups from remote forest roads and jeep trails. I can read a map just fine, but my fiancee sometimes likes that extra edge. So when she is driving, she'll often program a set of pick-up coordinates into her GPS. Then, if she gets turned around in a myriad of criss-crossing logging roads, she can hone in the last few hundred yards with her GPS. This has helped on a couple of occasions.
Hikes in Rain
02-24-2008, 17:00
But really, two GPSs that could not get a lock in the open on a road on a hill? Methinks you embellish a bit.
Well, maybe a little.:D But it was a tiny single-lane dirt track with a heavy cover. And they were having trouble with their units before that....
p.s. You are not a Luddite. Lots of people are slow to accept new things and cling to the old, but that doesn't make them Luddites. You can use your computer and internet connection to check it out:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/luddite
:p Busted! OK, I admit. I have four Trimble Recon GPS XC edition units for my staff at work. We need to locate structures with a relatively high degree of accuracy. I just like using maps and compasses!
Wise Old Owl
02-25-2008, 19:26
Here is a picture of what to expect with a GPS.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/Pinnicle.jpg
1. GPS generally do not have the trail preprogrammed into them. As you can see in point one the AT shortcut to skip the Pinnicle is on the AT paper maps / Not in the data bank of the GPS. Most GPS you have to put your trail in first as a Track (such as the Blue Line)
Wise Old Owl
02-25-2008, 19:32
From the picture above I took point two and enlarged it
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/2detail.jpg
The Blue Line is the initial preprogrammed Track
The thin Red Line is the actual data from a GPS after walking it.
The Purple Line I painted is the actual Google earth image of the Trail
My point is that there can be a good amount of deviation with these tools and you need to know how to use them properly and expect 75 foot to 100 foot of error even when it's trying to tell you its 16 feet
fiddlehead
02-25-2008, 21:43
When i'm caching water or food in the desert, i hide it well from hikers as well as package it well from animals. So, i usually take 2 or 3 marks for that site. Because of what you say (above) Owl. I've found too that sometimes my mark is within 5 feet and other times it's 60' away.
I always assume this is because of the error that's put into the system by our military. I remember i was hiking when the Desert Storm war started and it was WAY out of whack at that time. so, i think they can make it more accurate or less as they choose depending on who we are mad at (or whatever) (price of oil?) (oh sorry, this is not political forum?) just kidding!
So yes, don't assume that if you are in a total whiteout and it says the trail should be 4 feet to your right, that it is a faulty gps when it's really 16 feet to your left.
A map and compass and triangulation won't be any closer.
ps. it also helps to leave the gps on for a while. As it talks to more satellites, it can get a better and better fix on your location. (i think there's 24 of them up there and 12 in the western hemisphere) That is another reason why getting a good fix in heavy tree cover in the summer can be tough.
Thanks for putting that up there Owl, very interesting. (picture) But you didn't give any distances between the different lines. Are they 5' or 100' apart (at their furtherest point?)
mosquito ninja
02-25-2008, 22:37
They work well for archaeologists and other surveying companies. Sometimes we have to find & follow an imaginary line or 'future pipeline' 20m wide that twists and turns. No landmarks, no satellite photos, or bad maps prove for a fun time in the woods.
My point is that there can be a good amount of deviation with these tools and you need to know how to use them properly and expect 75 foot to 100 foot of error even when it's trying to tell you its 16 feet
Oh gosh, I spend quite a bit of time doing exactly what you did on this image (building up as accurate a track as I can for several trails now, to create maps and for data sharing with agencies) and can verify your point.
On a recreational handheld GPS the Forest Service verified that waypoints are close to as accurate as the next level of GPS receiver up; but track data is further off.
I am not an expert in the internal processing algorithms but have noticed that the track resulting from a Garmin 60CSx is somewhat closer to high resolution airphotos (such as the PAMAP photos that Google Earth now uses) than my older Garmin units and my DeLorme Earthmate. Waypoints from all are pretty close.
It seems that the track processing is more likely to go awry by lagging a directional change. In your second image, were you by any chance traveling from right to left?