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View Full Version : The Leave no trace! MYTH "LNT"



satchmo
02-23-2008, 05:00
I go into the woods. I have fun and I enjoy them. I cant leave no trace. Can you????

satchmo
02-23-2008, 05:03
T me Leave No trace is a joke. Be responsible clean up after your self

CaseyB
02-23-2008, 05:27
Beware the SW Va hillbilly drunk who doth post at 4AM:D

Word Up Wise!
Scott Co born & Wash Co Raised:welcome

Frolicking Dinosaurs
02-23-2008, 06:08
LALTAP - leave as little trace as possible.
::: Dino tiptoes into Satchmo's room and leaves juice and extra strength Excedrin on nightstand :::

Ghosthiker
02-23-2008, 06:29
LNT should be more of a goal, than a guidance. Try your best and accept where you can't.

Patrickjd9
02-23-2008, 08:53
LNT should be more of a goal, than a guidance. Try your best and accept where you can't.
BINGO!

The only way to leave NO trace is to have yourself magically dematerialized:eek:.

Del Q
02-23-2008, 10:00
On this subject, I just do not see bagging and carrying out (heavy!) your own "poop", hey, the bears **** in the woods, why can't I. With what is going on with the World today from an environmental perspective, some poop and TP isn't going to affect much.

DAKS
02-23-2008, 10:14
the only "trace" i ever leave are a few words in the trail/shelter register.

Lone Wolf
02-23-2008, 10:18
LNT is rarely "practiced" on the AT especially at shelter areas. LNT are just letters to most

mweinstone
02-23-2008, 10:23
this sounds like a bad trip this thread. leave no trace means certian things. an exact science of moveing thru the wilds. its not bringing home poop. burry it properly and you leave no trace. dont think you can come up with the definition of leave no trace. it allready exists and your an ass if you cant recite the rules backwards. its one simple thing. pack it in. pack it out. of course that dosnt mean poop but for the most protected ubove timberline regeions in places your not going. sox fuzz is a trace and should be on your check list when leaving a site. likewise, each break is followed by a few steps down the trail and a look back to be certian their is nothing left. campsites that are flattened are fluffed. no food is scattered. but for some situations like fruit crystals that weigh too much thrown into a wind at 10,000 feet. thats scatering. not coffie grounds burried. toilet paper is burnned in the cathole where not a hazard. toothpaste is carefully spit into a heel hole and covered. not broadcast on bushed dammit. leave no trace is taught at many acredited schools. its not easy . but its a proud thing to do and care about.

Grampie
02-23-2008, 10:24
LNT is rarely "practiced" on the AT especially at shelter areas. LNT are just letters to most

Wolf..LNT may be just letters but almost all of the thru-hikers I have met practice it to some degree. I think it's more about doing your own part to keep the AT what it is.

aaroniguana
02-23-2008, 10:31
Just do your best to lessen the impact of your presence and the presence of others.

Now if some people could just do this at WB. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Lone Wolf
02-23-2008, 10:33
Just do your best to lessen the impact of your presence and the presence of others.

Now if some people could just do this at WB. http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

then WB would be like trailplace and trailjournals. boring as hell. no humor. just anal hiker weenies :D

DAKS
02-23-2008, 10:35
wolf, you forgot to say "shelters blow!":D on a side note of LNT, take the stickers off of yer' apples and fruit/vegetables before you take 'em into the backcountry. those little stickers turn up everywhere on the trail!

Jason of the Woods
02-23-2008, 10:56
It's not that hard to bury your poo!

Fiddleback
02-23-2008, 11:12
There is a range of attitudes and approaches to the 'wilderness.' Sadly, there are many who think that their impact doesn't matter...'my poop and toilet paper won't make a difference', 'my fire ring is only one more', 'washing my pot in the stream won't hurt the water', etc. I'm happy that there are individuals and organizations that teach that a minimized impact is better than a careless attitude of 'what I do doesn't make a difference.' We cannot eliminate our impact but we should try to keep it to a minimum. And I'm thankful for each convert to the LNT attitude whether it's part of a formal organization or not.

My own personal LNT ethic is based on a pretty simple concept...other than the possibility of some footprints, no one can tell where I camped or where I passed through.

FB

Jason of the Woods
02-23-2008, 11:20
OK so heres a question. If I am going to pack something out that is flammable why not burn it? There is a pretty good chance that's what will happen to it if I put it in the trash.

No Belay
02-23-2008, 11:39
On this subject, I just do not see bagging and carrying out (heavy!) your own "poop", hey, the bears **** in the woods, why can't I. With what is going on with the World today from an environmental perspective, some poop and TP isn't going to affect much.

Yea the bears s*it in the woods but they Don't ***** in your living room. How do you feel justified to ***** in theirs. There is probanly less than one bear per square mile in their habitat. When you figure how many miles of trail corridor it takes to make a square mile, how many s*it spewing hikers exist per square mile? How many times have you seen a pile of crap with the accompaning TP lying exposed 10 feet off the trail? How many times have you seen a pile of bear s*it?:-?

Savor happy!

sneezer
02-23-2008, 12:03
hey folks - LNT is a skill not a law. It's based on ethics - 'do the right thing'. Nobody should tell YOU what that right thing is, but YOU will know. And if you are a reasonably skilled hiker doing the right thing is not that hard. Its being aware of how and why we hike. By going into the backcountry we WILL DEFINITELY have an impact. But we can reduce that impact by practicing the skills of LNT and because it is the right thing to do.
As an LNT Master Educator I teach skills and ethics, and encourage us all to make an effort. A little effort by some of us will make a big difference for all of us. And no LNT police will track you down if an effort can't always be made.

Bearpaw
02-23-2008, 13:29
I go into the woods. I have fun and I enjoy them. I cant leave no trace. Can you????

Try. You'll come pretty close and the travellers who come behind will likely not notice you were ever there.

A hint: LNT is designed more around traces other humans can notice than the worms we crush underneath, the bacteria we kill with chemicals in our drinking water or with heat from a fire, etc. On a microscopic level, LNT really is pretty much impossible. But that's not where the intent really is focused.

Lone Wolf
02-23-2008, 13:37
hey folks - LNT is a skill not a law. It's based on ethics - 'do the right thing'. Nobody should tell YOU what that right thing is, but YOU will know. And if you are a reasonably skilled hiker doing the right thing is not that hard. Its being aware of how and why we hike. By going into the backcountry we WILL DEFINITELY have an impact. But we can reduce that impact by practicing the skills of LNT and because it is the right thing to do.
As an LNT Master Educator I teach skills and ethics, and encourage us all to make an effort. A little effort by some of us will make a big difference for all of us. And no LNT police will track you down if an effort can't always be made.

been to georgia lately? LNT is extinct

aaroniguana
02-23-2008, 13:47
then WB would be like trailplace and trailjournals. boring as hell. no humor. just anal hiker weenies :D

Fired for effect, direct hit.

FeO2
02-23-2008, 13:48
LNT is great guidance for all to strive for...

I think the best part of the LNT movement is that it’s taught to those who don't hike as a hobby. For example, my sons Boy Scout troop teaches and practices this, local high school outing clubs do the same. It is great that they teach and make aware of LNT. It does reduce the litter that is left after a club "outing" weekend.

For the rest of us it is something to strive for, I am not perfect at it, but I try to be aware and better at it.

Remember; Leave it better than you found it. :p

weary
02-23-2008, 14:26
been to georgia lately? LNT is extinct
Sad but true. Trails have been getting dirtier and dirtier since LNT replaced carry in, carry out as a message to hikers.

Hikers know that LNT is impossible, so the message never gets serious consideration by most.

Paul Petzoldt, who invented the concept in the 70s, as the founder of NOLS, abandoned it a few years later because it is an impossible concept. Unfortunately, the organization is now a business. Hundreds of jobs held by generally nice dedicated people. depend on the concept and no one has the courage to push for a change.

During the sessions that lead to the reorganization of ATC a few years ago I argued LNT should be abandoned in favor of something that works. My comments drew no support and were ridiculed by the ATC staff.

But I happened to be right, nonetheless.

Weary

overmywaders
02-23-2008, 14:28
Do they teach the historical imperative of "Leave no trace?" If children were taught that this message is tens of thousands of years old and is for our own protection; it might have a greater impact.

For example, a primitive hunter who strays outside his tribal boundaries (think any aboriginal group you like - First Nation people come to mind) knows that to hunt successfully he must not only look for game, but must also ensure that he leaves no trace of his passage for members of a warring tribe/clan etc. to find -- it might save his life.

Similarly, just five thousand years ago, or thereabouts (no definitive date intended), the Jews were wandering the Sinai desert. What was one of their laws from God? Have a little spade on the end of their spears, always go outside the camp to defecate and then bury the waste.


Kids might understand the examples above.


As for "leave no trace" on popular trails -- that will only begin when hikers start to wear practical hiking boots. WHAT!! Yes, the cute little hiking shoes that fall apart after a few hundred miles dissuade most hikers from walking through puddles on the trail. As a result, what begins as a small mud puddle is soon a large buffalo wallow as successive hikers try to keep their feet dry by walking around it:) The puddle just gets wider and longer with everyone dancing from side-to-side, thus tearing the trailside apart, to stay dry.

dessertrat
02-23-2008, 14:47
Most trails and shelter areas are so packed down and well traveled on the AT that just be staying on those areas, you are pretty much not aggravating anything. That leaves two things: campfires and crapping. If you bury it, that's good enough (since most people are using the privies anyway). As for campfires, there's nothing wrong with burning some dead underbrush. It's actually a benefit in many ways. Just make sure you burn it well and don't throw stuff all over the place. If you cut up wood, leave any excess neatly stacked for the next camper. They will appreciate it, and a fire pit is not exactly pristine natural wilderness anyway.

I see LNT as far more important in the West in areas that are not heavily traveled, do not have privies or firepits or established shelters/tent areas, etc.

bfitz
02-24-2008, 14:06
Or entire society needs to come to terms with how to deal with trash. It's abominable.

Lone Wolf
02-24-2008, 14:08
It's abominable.

http://www.berean.com/product.asp?sku=0310706521

warraghiyagey
02-24-2008, 14:10
Or entire society needs to come to terms with how to deal with trash. It's abominable.
Maybe we could make a big scary snow man out of it.

Dirtygaiters
02-24-2008, 15:33
T me Leave No trace is a joke. Be responsible clean up after your self

"Be responsible and clean up after yourself" is basically the same thing as LNT. To me, anyway. They should make it simpler, though, and with direct rules people can wrap their minds around. Without direct rules, people will get into BS philosophical discussions about whether or not it's possible to "LNT" because with every footstep, they probably are killing a couple soil microbes. These people will then say, "hey, it's just not possible so I won't even bother." That's a mistake and a cop out. Here's why:

LNT "5 steps to success" = 1-erase all evidence that you had a campfire; 2-don't cut wood, instead gather sticks from a wide area; 3-don't litter, that includes tin cans and orange peels alike (campfires are not able to cause metals or most plastics to disappear, so remove your metal and plastic trash from them in the morning); 4-try not to trample fragile ecosystems like prairies, glades, tundra, wetlands, etc, and definitely don't make camp in one; 5-don't wash your hair/cookware/anything else in natural waterways.

I'm sure there are some other simple ones I'm forgetting (I haven't looked at the lnt.org site lately, and I probably won't anytime soon). The thing is, people think LNT is impossible. It's not! They think that it's impossible to erase evidence of a campfire because they've never tried, and they think that they have a right to wash their cookware in the streams because they don't know any better. Or, just because orange peels are natural, for some reason people think they are also biodegradable. As for littering, I think most people realize it's wrong, but just don't understand that every bottlecap they toss aside on the trail will stay there until somebody else comes along and cleans it up for them. Or that when they make fire rings, they are charring the rocks, and when they don't dismantle their fire rings, the fire rings will remain where they left them until somebody else comes along and cleans up.

It's not difficult, people! Just be mindful of your actions around camp and leave a campsite the way you found it.

The Old Fhart
02-24-2008, 20:10
Weary-"Paul Petzoldt, who invented the concept in the 70s, as the founder of SOLO....."Actually he founded NOLS, not SOLO, which is in North Conway, NH.

Darwin again
02-24-2008, 20:23
I've met NOLS weenies. Most are condescending jerks.

I am the wind.
Nobody knows I've been some place once I leave.
LNT = Pay no fees.

shelterbuilder
02-24-2008, 21:26
As an ideal, LNT is something GOOD to aim for. As a goal, it's not attainable. But just because something can't be attained doesn't mean that we shouldn't TRY; when we do fall short, we fall short closer to the ideal than we would have been if we hadn't tried to reach it at all.

There are certain things that we all know don't work - you can't incinerate glass, plastic or metal of any kind...so if you feel the need to burn off the food from your containers, fish the remains out before you leave the next day. Nobody likes tracking through people's poop...but the soil will reclaim the poop within 1 to 2 weeks, and the TP within a month, so just bury it within the top 6 inches of soil OUT OF THE WAY. And the list goes on....

"Pack it in...Pack it out.":)

Bearpaw
02-24-2008, 21:29
I've met NOLS weenies. Most are condescending jerks.

I am the wind.
Nobody knows I've been some place once I leave.
LNT = Pay no fees.

Thanks. I love being a weenie and condescending jerk. :banana

Bulldawg
02-24-2008, 21:39
Yea the bears s*it in the woods but they Don't ***** in your living room. How many times have you seen a pile of bear s*it?:-?

Savor happy!

Actually, I saw a pile of bear s**t right in the center of the Coosa yesterday.

Lone Wolf
02-24-2008, 22:06
I've met NOLS weenies. Most are condescending jerks.

I am the wind.
Nobody knows I've been some place once I leave.
LNT = Pay no fees.

yeah pretty much. even the natives trashed the woods. LNT types are kinda wealthy, wannabe woods boys

Bulldawg
02-24-2008, 22:10
I practice the LNT to a point. I am not one of these guys who is gonna pack out urine and feces. I burn extra food in the campfire. I burn paper in the campfire. I burn out cans in the campfire if it applies. I will pack out anything that will not burn. I will bury it when I have to take a s**t. I will also get off the trail a bit to take a s**t. I camp in a hammock, so I don't beat down the woods. I actually think I do a pretty good job. Others probably think otherwise and that is just their opinion.

Bearpaw
02-24-2008, 22:22
yeah pretty much. even the natives trashed the woods. LNT types are kinda wealthy, wannabe woods boys

SHUT UP Wolf! You don't know what you're talking about......

Oh wait, sorry about that. Darwin Again was so eloquent as to explain how NOLS types are such condescending jerks, I just felt compelled to spit that out.

Thanks for showing me the way Darwin! :rolleyes:

Or do I get a waiver from jerkdom since I was a scholarship kid?......:-?

Lone Wolf
02-24-2008, 22:24
i know EXACTLY what i'm spewing about

Bearpaw
02-24-2008, 22:31
i know EXACTLY what i'm spewing about

Yeah, I know. I said I was sorry. ;) I was directing the heat at Darwin, not you.

Actually, when a band from the plains moved in Spring, they left a VERY obvious trace. Dead grass from months camped on the same ground, bones from food, worn-out clothing, and LOTS of feces. Most stories talk about how good it was to get moving again as soon as the snow melted to get away from the smell.

This was why many referred to whites as filthy, because whites lived year-round where they dropped their leavings.

As for NOLS grads, it's true most are from well-to-do backgrounds, but they can read contour lines and use a compass, a skill not shared by many AT hikers. It's a very different style of walking than that practiced on the AT.

Jim Adams
02-24-2008, 22:32
I've met NOLS weenies. Most are condescending jerks.

I am the wind.
Nobody knows I've been some place once I leave.
LNT = Pay no fees.


Good post!

I thought LNT was lots of new tents!:D

geek

Bearpaw
02-24-2008, 23:12
Yeah, I know. I said I was sorry. ;) I was directing the heat at Darwin, not you.

BTW Darwin, I'm not actually trying to flame you or anything like that. I'm just enjoying a bit of license granted by a broad brush stroke characterization of NOLS types.

I taught for the school seasonally from 2001-2003. Most of the school's instructors are dirt poor compared to the students they teach, but love getting even a paltry paycheck for spending a month at a time in some of the world's most incredible wilderness areas. If I could have made even a semi-reasonable income at it, I would still be doing it.

So stop busting on NOLS (which BTW does NOT require students to pack out their feces, despite posts by the Weasel), you condescending jerk!

Oh wait, I'm supposed to be the condescending jerk.......

Hell, never mind.....:confused:;)

weary
02-24-2008, 23:39
Actually he founded NOLS, not SOLO, which is in North Conway, NH.
You are right. Just before reading this, I remembered and changed my post. Paul spent his last days in Maine as a member of the Maine Chapter, AMC. I chatted with him and heard him speak quite often -- most notably just before he attempted a 70th? anniversary climb of his record first climb of the high peaks of the Tetons as a teenager.

He remained active to the end, running a camp for children in Maine, to which the chapter sponsored several kids.

Weary

weary
02-24-2008, 23:43
I practice the LNT to a point. I am not one of these guys who is gonna pack out urine and feces. I burn extra food in the campfire. I burn paper in the campfire. I burn out cans in the campfire if it applies. I will pack out anything that will not burn. I will bury it when I have to take a s**t. I will also get off the trail a bit to take a s**t. I camp in a hammock, so I don't beat down the woods. I actually think I do a pretty good job. Others probably think otherwise and that is just their opinion.
It's a very rare AT campfire that will burn food.

Weary

Dirtygaiters
02-24-2008, 23:54
Most trails and shelter areas are so packed down and well traveled on the AT that just be staying on those areas, you are pretty much not aggravating anything. That leaves two things: campfires and crapping. If you bury it, that's good enough (since most people are using the privies anyway). As for campfires, there's nothing wrong with burning some dead underbrush. It's actually a benefit in many ways. Just make sure you burn it well and don't throw stuff all over the place. If you cut up wood, leave any excess neatly stacked for the next camper. They will appreciate it, and a fire pit is not exactly pristine natural wilderness anyway.

I see LNT as far more important in the West in areas that are not heavily traveled, do not have privies or firepits or established shelters/tent areas, etc.

I can attest to that being true. Something most people in states like Arizona, Utah and Nevada don't realize is that the rate of decomposition is about 4-10 times slower in an arid desert area than it is pretty much anywhere in the eastern part of the country. So your buried waste takes that much longer to decompose. Not only that, but in some areas, the effect of killing microorganisms in the soil just by stepping off the trail is so amplified that you actually can see lasting effects of footprints being damaging to the soil ecosystem for many years after the damage is done. It's called desert varnish and a well studied living system in the soil that's actually quite important for the health of the larger plants and animals in the ecosystem. By contrast, an ecosystem like in a random forest in Tennessee or Virginia is relatively resilient.

GGS2
02-25-2008, 00:00
Now that the native myth is up for discussion...

The more you learn about how they lived, the more you understand that they and we are not much different, except we developed higher technology than they did. They spent all that time when we were inventing stuff just surviving the journey from there to here on foot. The paleo-indians in North America wiped out two species of elephants, half a dozen large predators, the giant sloths and some animals the like of which we can't find anymore anywhere on Earth. When the Iroquoi wanted to make a water transit on a war party, they just cut the bark off the biggest birch they could find and made a temporary canoe for the one voyage. I've been in native fish camps, and they are cess pits. They certainly had stealthy and skilled hunters in the old days, but today, as always I am morally certain, most of the hunters are only moderately skilled, and depend on modern vehicles and weapons to hunt their meat. The civilized tribes of the south were on their way to becoming just like us, with agriculture, architecture, politics and the lot.

The difference is that one man with modern technology can be ten or a hundred times more destructive than one stone age man. It took them maybe a millennium or two to wipe out all the megafauna. It took our forefathers less than a century to kill all the passenger pigeons and the plains buffalo. We have to pay attention to what we do because we are fouling our own nests far faster than our nests can clean themselves. And we are using up all the accessible resources, water and land.

So it does no good to compare us with the natives and ask if we are doing anything different or worse than them. They were bad enough. Its only that they hadn't quite begun to press against their resource limits with their technology. Give them a few more centuries or millennia and they would have gotten there. In we come, and we're there after less than a millennium.

The reason we have to pay attention to what happens to these precious park lands and wild spaces is because if we aren't careful they will all be gone soon. As it is, they will all change character in a few years, less than a century, and we don't really know what the impact will be, except that it will be difficult and probably deadly for many species on the edge now.

A bit of unsightly orange rinds and toilet paper is nasty, but not the end of the world. Uncaring trashing of an ecology will make a barren spot. Again not the end of the world, but perhaps the destruction of a pleasant place to walk and meet our neighbors. Trashing the world ecology is the end of the world as we know it. Everything didn't change with 9-11, but it will change with uncaring behavior destructive of our ecology.

But what the heck. We may be gone, but in a few thousand or million years, nature will have reinvented itself all anew. While we are dying off, we may be glad of the remaining stone age technology invested in the first nations people, because it is what we may have to survive with. But us old buggers will be mostly gone by then anyway. It's you young folks who will have to deal with this mess. Don't trust anyone over forty. Unless of course they talk sense.

No Belay
02-25-2008, 00:17
Actually, I saw a pile of bear s**t right in the center of the Coosa yesterday.

Yea, it might have been a statement. ;)

The Weasel
02-25-2008, 02:24
BTW Darwin, I'm not actually trying to flame you or anything like that. I'm just enjoying a bit of license granted by a broad brush stroke characterization of NOLS types.

I taught for the school seasonally from 2001-2003. Most of the school's instructors are dirt poor compared to the students they teach, but love getting even a paltry paycheck for spending a month at a time in some of the world's most incredible wilderness areas. If I could have made even a semi-reasonable income at it, I would still be doing it.

So stop busting on NOLS (which BTW does NOT require students to pack out their feces, despite posts by the Weasel), you condescending jerk!

Oh wait, I'm supposed to be the condescending jerk.......

Hell, never mind.....:confused:;)

Lose the chip on your shoulder, Bear, and maybe people will feel differently. I respect and admire NOLS stafffers - including you - except when they turn and just insult others beyond those who criticize them. I've never said NOLS required students to pack out human waste, but I know that NOLS does encourage it in appropriate circumstances.

Act with a smaller emotional footprint and people will give you the respect you deserve.

TW

Bearpaw
02-25-2008, 10:06
Lose the chip on your shoulder, Bear, and maybe people will feel differently. I respect and admire NOLS stafffers - including you - except when they turn and just insult others beyond those who criticize them. I've never said NOLS required students to pack out human waste, but I know that NOLS does encourage it in appropriate circumstances.

Act with a smaller emotional footprint and people will give you the respect you deserve.

TW

I never insulted you. I simply pointed out that you were using NOLS to support your position when the practice wasn't the way you describe, and your comments seem to have left many with the idea that NOLS consists of a bunch of fecalphiliacs I'm sorry if that offended you.

And the comments I made to Darwin Again were tongue in cheek, hence the smilies.

Lone Wolf
02-25-2008, 10:09
I never insulted you. I simply pointed out that you were using NOLS to support your position when the practice wasn't the way you describe, and your comments seem to have left many with the idea that NOLS consists of a bunch of fecalphiliacs I'm sorry if that offended you.

And the comments I made to Darwin Again were tongue in cheek, hence the smilies.

weasel is humorless. pay him no mind

ki0eh
02-25-2008, 10:49
My last weekend trip had a NOLS graduate on it. His pack weight must have been twice mine - and I packed in 4 L of water! (and I was the one with the MAP too!!)

Darwin again
02-25-2008, 10:50
BTW Darwin, I'm not actually trying to flame you or anything like that. I'm just enjoying a bit of license granted by a broad brush stroke characterization of NOLS types.

I taught for the school seasonally from 2001-2003. Most of the school's instructors are dirt poor compared to the students they teach, but love getting even a paltry paycheck for spending a month at a time in some of the world's most incredible wilderness areas. If I could have made even a semi-reasonable income at it, I would still be doing it.

So stop busting on NOLS (which BTW does NOT require students to pack out their feces, despite posts by the Weasel), you condescending jerk!

Oh wait, I'm supposed to be the condescending jerk.......

Hell, never mind.....:confused:;)

NO! I am the condescending jerk!
I insist... ;)
(But the two NOLS peeps I met were condescending jerks. I chalked it up to their dealing with kids and not adults all the time. cest la vie! No broad brushery intended. Maybe.)

warraghiyagey
02-25-2008, 10:56
There's no reason you both can't be condescending jerks.


http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/hiding.gif

GBlaylock
02-25-2008, 11:05
I see no discussion of the mark/impact hiking poles have on the trail. More noticable to me than an orange peel.

ki0eh
02-25-2008, 11:33
I see no discussion of the mark/impact hiking poles have on the trail. More noticable to me than an orange peel.

We don't have that problem in PA. :D

Bearpaw
02-25-2008, 12:05
NO! I am the condescending jerk!
I insist... ;)
(But the two NOLS peeps I met were condescending jerks. I chalked it up to their dealing with kids and not adults all the time. cest la vie! No broad brushery intended. Maybe.)


It happens. :D Sometimes it's kind of liberating to be a condescending jerk.:)

Bearpaw
02-25-2008, 12:07
There's no reason you both can't be condescending jerks.


http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/hiding.gif

SHUT UP YOU!!:p

BTW, thanks for the insight. It's a good one. :banana

dessertrat
02-25-2008, 12:27
I see no discussion of the mark/impact hiking poles have on the trail. More noticable to me than an orange peel.

So are bootprints.

paradoxb3
02-25-2008, 18:21
I dont see what the big discussion is all about. I think every single soul here knows what LNT means and follows it as closely as they see possible, and thats all that matters. The only real troublemakers (as much as LW would like you to think he is) are the ones that make no effort, and I doubt they're here reading this thread.

However yes, there is one way to follow LNT 100%. Dont go. But since that isnt an option for us wanderers, we do what we can.

Johnny Thunder
02-25-2008, 18:24
We don't have that problem in PA. :D


We don't have that problem in Iran.

satchmo
02-25-2008, 19:51
Beware the SW Va hillbilly drunk who doth post at 4AM:D

Word Up Wise!
Scott Co born & Wash Co Raised:welcome

LOL Bingo. I forgot I posted this. You ever hike up around wise. If so let me know. We will do a few together.

Darwin again
02-25-2008, 20:02
We don't have that problem in PA. :D

In PA, all the hiker-generated rubbish falls down into the crevices between the rocks.

GGS2
02-25-2008, 22:30
In PA, all the hiker-generated rubbish falls down into the crevices between the rocks.

I thought it was all the hiker trash...:rolleyes:

GGS2
02-25-2008, 22:32
However yes, there is one way to follow LNT 100%. Dont go. But since that isnt an option for us wanderers, we do what we can.

Actually... Not even that works. Don't BE. Now that works!:sun