Fires/Stoves in Extreme Cold

[JAK]

Thought I would bring this up before winter is over.

I went for a morning hiking a few weeks back when it was extremely cold, like 0F or so, and it reminded me just how much more difficult it is to start fires and stoves in extreme cold weather. There are many different aspects to this phenomenon, and many different repercussions, and measures which might be taken to mitigate.

Issues/Repercussions/Mitigation:

Issues/Repercussions:
Hands are more difficult to keep working if you have to remove mitts/gloves.
Lighters/Matches/Stove even more difficult to work.
Takes more time, when it is most critical.
Lighters/Matches/Stove also more likely to fail the more time it takes.
Some fuels/tinders such as wax candles, birchbark, harder to melt/ignite.
Some fuels, such as alcohol don't work as well even once lit.
Heat loss to environment can be extreme, requiring more fuel / larger fire / more time.
Snow or wet frozen ground will rob even more heat as it melts and limit the performance of the fire/stove, perhaps drowning it.
Water may also end up less hot when you want it to be most hot.
You may also end up with less hot drinks/food when you want/need more.


Mitigation?
0. Warmer clothing in case attempts at firestarting temporarily fail and so that your hands/body warm up faster after being exposed, not just stay warm?
1. Some quick energy food in case attempts at firestarting temporarily fail?
2. A goundpad and poncho/blanket that can be used while starting a fire?
3. More fire-resistant clothing for working closer to fires/stoves?
4. Extra warm mitts with some mass to them to rewarm your hands intermittently, not just keep them warm continuously?
5. Handy pockets/armpits/crotch to rewarm hands without compromising clothing system?
6. Liners that can be worn while lighting a lighter, etc?
7. Larger Bic Lighter? Larger Matches? Easier to manipulate?
8. Extra Lighter? Extra Matches? Easy to use firestarter?
9. Gather and always carry some extra tinder & kindling?
10. Bring some bomb-proof firestarter for when you really need it most?
11. Bring extra Fuel?
12. Better windscreen? Perhaps an insulated windscreen?
13. Insulated ground pad for smallfire/stove?
14. Have a hobbo stove as backup to alcohol stove, etc. and vices/versus?
15. Practice when you can in -0F, 10F with wind/snow, 20F in freezing rain, etc?

Comments/Suggestions ???

[Green Bean]

ISSUES Getting out of the tent in the morning!:bse

[Tipi Walter]

This is the kind of post I like, an in-depth study of one facet of backpacking: Cold weather stove useage.

I've found basically in zero temps or below that using a white gas stove generally means I'll have to bring in a bit more fuel to compensate for the cold. Maybe an extra pint to account for boiling water and bringing ice cold stuff to boiling.

The Bics pose no new problems since I always have one in my down jacket pocket ready for use. One thing I've noticed is that lexan spoons tend to snap in half in frigid temps.

The biggest problem I have when cooking in low temps is the cleaning of the danged pot after the meal. Usually this can be done with a paper towel, especially in a teflon pot, but if the titanium pot gets gunked up with mac and cheese, nothing but a thorough scrubbing in COLD WATER will clean it. Talk about frozen fingers!

[doggiebag]

When you feel like you've gathered enough firewood for the evening ... specially during winter - triple what you've got (I've even heard that you should gather up to as much as 5 times of what you think you'll need). When I run into birch bark - I usually stock up for future use. Most people head downhill from camp to gather fire wood (natural instinct) - head uphill from camp when looking. Winter hiking is beautiful and fun but it comes at the cost of being uncomfortable/dangerous for the unprepared/inexperienced. I got some great experience this past winter and I realized that it is one of my favoriet seasons to hike. Everything just takes a lot longer to accomplish. When winter hiking I usually try not to concentrate on making big mileage days ... I'm more concerned with survival and trying to get as comfortable as possible in a extreme environment. Great thread JAK - firebuilding and the effects of extreme cold on stoves is serious business.

[JAK]

Should have mentioned:

Lethargy & Self Doubt

Has anyone else noticed in extreme cold and other weather extremes a natural reluctance to do stuff, especially when you are unsure or haven't practiced it enough? In a way, this is healthy, because everything takes time and energy, but often it is not healthy. Sometimes you just have to be prepared to kick yourself in the butt extra hard to do the stuff that needs to get done when it really needs to get done, especially if things might go from bad to worse. Still, it is important to know how long things will take, how much energy they will take, and whether or not they can get done and be effective. This includes such things as getting/melting more water, making hot drinks/meals, gathering extra fuel and making a warming or drying fire when neccessary/possible, drying out socks/boots/clothes, setting up your shelter with some extra protection, improvising a snow/debris shelter.

All the more reason to practice/practice/practice rather than rely on theory and problem solving in a crisis. Of course, you can't practice everything all the time, and sometimes it is more important to conserve energy than to take advantage of a training opportunity. Perhaps it is best to focus your practice on some of the more basic things, like making a small fire to dry out some socks and mitts while making tea and staying warm while sitting on a ground pad under some sort of quick poncho/tarp shelter.

Summary:
1. Practice Practice Practice
2. Keep it Simple Stupid

[JAK]

Tipi Walter said:
"The Bics pose no new problems since I always have one in my down jacket pocket ready for use."

JAK said:
I have also found it is fairly easy to warm the bic back up once cold. What surprises me is how fast your hands can get cold and how difficult it is to manipulate and strike a small bic if it doesn't work on the very first strike. The bic is not so much the problem as the cold hands. Wondering if a larger bic might help. Haven't tried it for comparison. Also, in warmer temps I use the minibic to light a candle and the candle to light my small fire / hobbo stove / kelly kettle. This does not work so well in extreme cold. Even a candle can be difficult to light because the wax is harder to melt and wick. More prep time is needed with tinder/kindling/windscreen/shelter etc, and you have to be able to hold the lighter longer. Again I think a larger bic might help, but it is more a matter of keeping hands warm and getting fully prepped and sheltered before starting.

[Tipi Walter]

In my trail journals I often write about this very cold weather lethargy, I call it winter inertia. It's especially bad when stuck in a tent during a nasty blizzard, there's an old stone age desire to stay put in the only warm nest/cave for miles around. And as the shelter gets walloped by snow and ice and wind, what sane person would try and take down the only real home he has? So I tend to stay put for days and get comfy and cozy.

Then there's the extreme temperature dips, and the eyes and nose and mouth feels it first, that peculiar minus 20-30 below zero heartache that turns backpacking into a winter running-with-the-bulls. But the way I see it, there are regular bag nights and then there are the frigid Jeremiah Johnson-mountain man bag nights which sure look good in the trip reports. Add a few fotogs of the ice cold conditions and scratch another notch in the old pistol belt.

[JAK]

Tipi Walter said:
The biggest problem I have when cooking in low temps is the cleaning of the danged pot after the meal. Usually this can be done with a paper towel, especially in a teflon pot, but if the titanium pot gets gunked up with mac and cheese, nothing but a thorough scrubbing in COLD WATER will clean it. Talk about frozen fingers!

Excellent point.
More though and preparation needs to go into ease of cleanup in cold weather. In many cases it can be defered, since it is relatively safe when frozen, but sooner or later it must be dealt with. The main thing is you don't want to go through all the trouble of stopping to warm up by making a hot meal and then throw it all away with freezing cold hands once your done. Perhaps in addition to extra fuel / extra clothes one might also include food that is easier to cleanup, or food that can be turned into a hot drink once you've eaten it. Oatmeal etc.

[Alligator]

I don't bring minibics in the winter. It's not worth the weight savings.

[doggiebag]

There is no room for Lethargy in winter hiking ... specifically if one is solo. I haven't seen too many lazy folks on the trail in winter (they can't survive it). It's a good way to commit suicide if one is so inclined. All they have to do is sit in one spot and let nature takes it's course over a few hours. Here is one of my favoriet short stories by Jack London "To build a fire" (http://www.jacklondons.net/buildafire.html) where it tells of the life and death consequences of fire building in sub-zero conditions. It's a great read.

[doggiebag]

PS - Sitting out a snowstorm in one spot is not Lethargy - it's good common sense. Just did not want to give the wrong impression.

[Alligator]

Fire is one of the last things to worry about in the winter. Set up shelter, eat, water, then maybe a fire. You shouldn't need it or count on it.

[JAK]

doggiebag said:
When I run into birch bark - I usually stock up for future use.
Head uphill from camp when looking.

Both good points, especially the first. I think carrying some natural tinder/kindling makes sense in extreme cold even if you are using an alcohol or gas stove as your primary stove. It doesn't weigh much to carry a few handfuls of birch bark and dry spruce sticks for when you need them, and they may not be as handy as you might hope when you need them the most. Also in extreme cold and on snow or icy ground a fire needs to be considerably bigger to hold its own, or alternatively, a hobbo stove needs to be bigger and better made and better insulated from the ground. I would venture to guess that an alcohol stove might need to be larger also, and pehaps some components windscreen etc could be designed to work as a hobbo stove also.

Not sure best ground pad for fire/stove? Depending on fire/stove type, some need to withstand high temperatures. I've been meaning to make one of ceramic wool covered in muffler tape. Kevlar cloth is another option.

[hammock engineer]

Man reading this is making me miss winter hiking. Except for the fact that everything freezes. My inflatable pad gets ice inside at the foot end from my breath blowing it up. Having to sleep with everything. Best of all not carrying any water. I actually like this part, after a certain temp I can't seem to keep water unfrozen in my pack.

I haven't done it yet, but I want to make a pack and stuff sacks that let my pack up my stuff with my mittens on. I'm tired of cold hands.

Esbit tablets btw make great firestarters. I have gotten a fire going with damp frozen wood with them.

[Tipi Walter]

PS - Sitting out a snowstorm in one spot is not Lethargy - it's good common sense. Just did not want to give the wrong impression.

Hey doggiebag and the dogs!! My old dog says hello.

There's a tendency for groups of backpackers to panic-hike when caught in a mean blizzard and low temps. During the Blizzard of '93 a group of high school students from the Cranbrook school in Michigan got caught up on the North Fork of the Citico. The storm hit on a Friday and dumped 3 feet of fast snow and by Saturday the winds hit and panic arrived. One of the adult leaders tried to get his people out and in the process lost both of his feet and all his fingers due to frostbite.

I always felt that had they stayed put for several days and arranged their ample tarps in a strong shelter configuration, they would've made it out just fine.

And I agree with Alligator, building a fire is wasted energy, the warmest place in the winter is in the sleeping bag on the ground pad.

And JAK: I don't know how many times I pocketed a bunch of birch bark for kindling, especially at basecamps in Lost Valley and along high mountain valley creekbeds.

[Alligator]

...
I haven't done it yet, but I want to make a pack and stuff sacks that let my pack up my stuff with my mittens on. I'm tired of cold hands.
...Campmor convertible wind blocker mitts/gloves. They rock.

[JAK]

Lethargy vs Conserving Energy
and the wisdom to know the difference

Excellent points by all.


Alligator said:
Fire is one of the last things to worry about in the winter.
Set up shelter, eat, water, then maybe a fire.
You shouldn't need it or count on it.

I agree that you shouldn't count on it, but you shouldn't count on being able to light your stove either so I think its wise to have clothing that bears that in mind. I would agree with those priorities, perhaps with the following modification:
1. Extra warm clothing, not just for staying warm but also for warming back up.
2. Quick shelter for when you need to stop briefly. (poncho & ground pad ?)
3. Quick stove/fire for when you want or need melt snow and have a hot drink. Something like honey for being able to turn hot drink into quick energy when needed.
4. Full shelter that is still reasonably quick easy to setup when you need to turn in and ride extreme weather out especially if you were unable to get stove/fire working.
5. Ability to make a small fire to either warm up and dry out in anticipation of extreme weather coming or after riding it out.

[doggiebag]

Hey doggiebag and the dogs!! My old dog says hello.

There's a tendency for groups of backpackers to panic-hike when caught in a mean blizzard and low temps. During the Blizzard of '93 a group of high school students from the Cranbrook school in Michigan got caught up on the North Fork of the Citico. The storm hit on a Friday and dumped 3 feet of fast snow and by Saturday the winds hit and panic arrived. One of the adult leaders tried to get his people out and in the process lost both of his feet and all his fingers due to frostbite.

I always felt that had they stayed put for several days and arranged their ample tarps in a strong shelter configuration, they would've made it out just fine.

And I agree with Alligator, building a fire is wasted energy, the warmest place in the winter is in the sleeping bag on the ground pad.

And JAK: I don't know how many times I pocketed a bunch of birch bark for kindling, especially at basecamps in Lost Valley and along high mountain valley creekbeds.

I'm more apt to stay put and wait out a storm. I'm not a high mileage hiker - I enjoy staying in remote camps as some may understand. Under certain conditions - I will agree with both you and alligator that setting up a nice bomb proof shelter overrides the need for a fire. I agree 100%. It's the times when you need to dry clothing or when a little human comfort is needed to allow me to enjoy and extend my winter outings is when my fire building is something I value. Winter hiking without a fire is simply hard for me to fathom. My dog says hello as well.

[Jason of the Woods]

We do a lot of winter hiking. I know that some of you are saying "this guy lives in KY", but it does get cold here. I have to agree with the value of a fire. However I do also agree with the point that you should worry first about a good camp. I have found that is essential. In high winds I always try to camp in an area out of the wind, ect.

[take-a-knee]

Some have shelter with a fire inside, check out the weight of the Vertex 6.5 with carbon pole and then add the weight of the small titanium stove and pipe:

http://www.titaniumgoat.com/tents.html

I've used the old army squad tent/yukon stove system in Alaska. These guys figured out how to achieve the same result with high tech/ backpackable materials.

[Alligator]

Lethargy vs Conserving Energy
and the wisdom to know the difference

Excellent points by all.


Alligator said:
Fire is one of the last things to worry about in the winter.
Set up shelter, eat, water, then maybe a fire.
You shouldn't need it or count on it.

I agree that you shouldn't count on it, but you shouldn't count on being able to light your stove either so I think its wise to have clothing that bears that in mind. I would agree with those priorities, perhaps with the following modification:

1. Extra warm clothing, not just for staying warm but also for warming back up.
2. Quick shelter for when you need to stop briefly. (poncho & ground pad ?)
3. Quick stove/fire for when you want or need melt snow and have a hot drink. Something like honey for being able to turn hot drink into quick energy when needed.
4. Full shelter that is still reasonably quick easy to setup when you need to turn in and ride extreme weather out especially if you were unable to get stove/fire working.
5. Ability to make a small fire to either warm up and dry out in anticipation of extreme weather coming or after riding it out.
I only count on my stove for hot food, not warmth. If I have a stove malfunction, I still have adequate food to eat. There's a rule of 3. Three weeks to die from hunger, three days from lack of water, three hours in the cold. Give or take, it's a rough rule, it's more important to consider it from order of magnitude. If my stove breaks, I will have adequate clothing and shelter to stay warm enough to make a fire should I need to cook or melt snow. Fire is not the remedy for hypothermia, a warm bag and dry warm clothes are. Please remember that.

1. Yes.
2. Not needed. Your shell is your quick shelter. Taking any time to set something like that up is wasted time and will make you cold. Sit pad is good on it's own though.
3. Sure.
4. No, you have the stove/fire idea wrong.
5. Have fire ability but no to the small warming fire midday. Use your clothes. If your stuff is all wet then you need to stop and reevaluate. Drying your stuff out by a fire is generally not helpful, most people have synthetics (except you Jak you wooly-head:D) which melt. Don't count on getting things dried correctly with a fire.

[hammock engineer]

Campmor convertible wind blocker mitts/gloves. They rock.

Thanks I'll have to look into them. I was thinking something like that or a shell mittem over liner gloves.

[saimyoji]

Thanks I'll have to look into them. I was thinking something like that or a shell mittem over liner gloves.

OR Meteor mitts: waterproof outershell with removable convertible mitt liners. I used mine on 4 separate overnighters this winter and love em. Very flexible warm and waterproof.

[Alligator]

Thanks I'll have to look into them. I was thinking something like that or a shell mittem over liner gloves.
I find liner gloves too thin. That and I've melted the finger tips too:o.


OR Meteor mitts: waterproof outershell with removable convertible mitt liners. I used mine on 4 separate overnighters this winter and love em. Very flexible warm and waterproof.I carry a separate pair of outer shell waterproof/inner fleece mitts. Did you add the convertibles to the shell or did they come together as a set?

The Campmor ones can get wet. They do dry easily. I don't like hiking with mitts on, so I like a pair of sacrifice gloves and take the small penalty for the extra set. In other words, I'm reluctant to put the overmitts on, especially because mine are rather long and the velcro is tricky.

[JAK]

I wouldn't argue with the Alligators last post as it comes down to what works for the individual and his clothing/gear system and the region he hikes in. I spend all my time in woods and use kelly kettle or hobbo stove almost exclusively, so tend to favour wool also, and small warming fires are not much of a stretch from a pot full of boiling water out of a kelly kettle. If I was doing most of my stuff above the treeline or in more exposed areas and they were the most likely places for me to find myself in extreme cold and severe weather I would rely less on wood and wool. But when cold in the woods, and having just made a cup of tea, it seems silly to waste it. Sucks when stove don't work though. Nothing is totally bomb proof, so you need options, and practice. By poncho for quick shelter I didn't neccessarily mean stakes and cord. I basically meant something with a hood to cover head and sholders and help block the wind a bit while making tea. Some shells are better for this than others. Wool clothing underneath is good when working around fires. Fires are good when wearing wool. Fires don't need to be big. Kelly Kettle without the Kelly Kettle is often enough. Sucks in deep snow though, and no good for melting snow either. Whatever works, plus practice practice practice.

[NorthCountryWoods]

Comments/Suggestions ???

Speaking from personal experience...white gas (and alcohol for that matter) remains in liquid state at -40 below zero. Spill some on you and it instantly freezes your skin.

Not fun.

[JAK]

I think it would be reasonable to have both options, to wear a combination of wool and synthetic, and have a working and practiced option of using a hobbo stove when below the treeline and a alcohol or gas stove above the treeline. I think this might be the best and lightest/safest/most versatile solution for some folks that might encounter extreme cold or severe weather either above or below the treeline. However, it would only be best for an individual if it doesn't compromise the first two rules. The third rule is a distant third, in my opinion.

1. Practice Practice Practice (what works for you).
2. Keep it Simple Stupid (what works for you).
.
.
.
3. Research/Develop/Optimize (especially what seems to work well for others).

[Pennsylvania Rose]

There's a tendency for groups of backpackers to panic-hike when caught in a mean blizzard and low temps. During the Blizzard of '93 a group of high school students from the Cranbrook school in Michigan got caught up on the North Fork of the Citico. The storm hit on a Friday and dumped 3 feet of fast snow and by Saturday the winds hit and panic arrived. One of the adult leaders tried to get his people out and in the process lost both of his feet and all his fingers due to frostbite.

I always felt that had they stayed put for several days and arranged their ample tarps in a strong shelter configuration, they would've made it out just fine.

I remember that story, and thought the same thing. I also remember seeing news footage of helicopters flying people out of the Smokies. I guess it shouldn't have surprised me, but it did. I always thought that if you went into the backcountry, you should be prepared to ride out a storm.

[woodsy]

I'm content with white gas in cold conditions. My MSR Whisperlite Internationale 600 is rated for -10 F before possible O ring leakage. Thats as cold as I care to be out in anyway. I'll say this for white gas, it's quick boiling/cooking, no messing around.

[doggiebag]

I think it would be reasonable to have both options, to wear a combination of wool and synthetic, and have a working and practiced option of using a hobbo stove when below the treeline and a alcohol or gas stove above the treeline. I think this might be the best and lightest/safest/most versatile solution for some folks that might encounter extreme cold or severe weather either above or below the treeline. However, it would only be best for an individual if it doesn't compromise the first two rules. The third rule is a distant third, in my opinion.

1. Practice Practice Practice (what works for you).
2. Keep it Simple Stupid (what works for you).
.
.
.
3. Research/Develop/Optimize (especially what seems to work well for others).

All great suggestions ... another one I may add is knowing one's personal limits based on experience and current conditions. Though we all have a tendency of pushing the limits to further grow - small baby steps will ensure the correct skills get built up on without getting in over their heads. Basic survival skills should be ingrained so that they're automatic when the time comes that mother nature takes a swing at your hide. Knowing exactly the steps to take and executing those tasks will stave off panic which is a big contributor to the Darwin awards.

[hammock engineer]

I remember that story, and thought the same thing. I also remember seeing news footage of helicopters flying people out of the Smokies. I guess it shouldn't have surprised me, but it did. I always thought that if you went into the backcountry, you should be prepared to ride out a storm.

I remember hearing about people getting air lifted out of the smokies. Honestly I thought it was pretty cool and wouldn't mind it myself. If I heard right their was so much snow they were standing on the shelter roofs. I think I could ride it out, but time wise it would take awhile for that much snow to melt.

[Alligator]

I'm just teasing you on the wool bit there JAK. Wool's fine. I bring a thermos though for my tea and it's ready right quick;). Still too hot to drink at 4 p.m. It does weighs 13 oz. but it is totally worth it. Stopping though just to make tea is a want not a need. Nor should the warming fire at lunch be a need. Life may suck if it's near freezing and raining.

What works for you should work for you in an emergency. Practicing something that is wrong just means you can do the wrong thing faster.

[JAK]

There is often a tradeoff between mobility and the ability to ride out bad weather. I think it makes sense to optimize both without compromising the other, but the best compromise depends on the individual and situation. The best solution above the treeline tends to lean more towards mobility, while the best solution below the treeline tends the other way, but there are exceptions such as slower or mixed groups above treelines when mobility might be restricted, or cross-country skiing below the treeline when you might leverage survivability with mobility. Unneccessarily depending too much on one at the expense of the other can be perilous, and depending too much on fair weather, good fortune, or SAR is always a no no. I think the whole point of adventure is an excercise in self-reliance while exporing the natural world, always within your own limits, including the limits of your own humility. Pride goeth before the fall. ;)

I tend to be rather forgiving of the inexperienced, and youth, though nature is not. No one ever really knows what inexperience is until they learn it directly from nature. There is not much sense in ranting on folks after the fact. I am not sure what purpose it serves, except perhaps to increase the panic and shame when people discover they have overextended the limits of their experience and good fortune.

[doggiebag]

There is often a tradeoff between mobility and the ability to ride out bad weather. I think it makes sense to optimize both without compromising the other, but the best compromise depends on the individual and situation. The best solution above the treeline tends to lean more towards mobility, while the best solution below the treeline tends the other way, but there are exceptions such as slower or mixed groups above treelines when mobility might be restricted, or cross-country skiing below the treeline when you might leverage survivability with mobility. Unneccessarily depending too much on one at the expense of the other can be perilous, and depending too much on fair weather, good fortune, or SAR is always a no no. I think the whole point of adventure is an excercise in self-reliance while exporing the natural world, always within your own limits, including the limits of your own humility. Pride goeth before the fall. ;)

I tend to be rather forgiving of the inexperienced, and youth, though nature is not. No one ever really knows what inexperience is until they learn it directly from nature. There is not much sense in ranting on folks after the fact. I am not sure what purpose it serves, except perhaps to increase the panic and shame when people discover they have overextended the limits of their experience and good fortune.

I see no issue with reinforcing what we know with regards to these basic skills regarding winter survival. In fact IMHO the skills needed to be shared to the new batch of hikers needs reinforcing. I'm lucky enough to have succesfully self-rescue myself from hypothermic conditions as plenty of us have. It's the inexperienced batch of hikers venturing out of the safety net guaranteed by society that needs this advise. Whatever can be shared can save a life. I'm still with the camp that values fire as a winter necessity :D. I do not agree that a fire is not neccesary for prolonged winter camping. That's just me.

[JAK]

I'm just teasing you on the wool bit there JAK. Wool's fine. I bring a thermos though for my tea and it's ready right quick;). Still too hot to drink at 4 p.m. It does weighs 13 oz. but it is totally worth it. Stopping though just to make tea is a want not a need. Nor should the warming fire at lunch be a need. Life may suck if it's near freezing and raining.

What works for you should work for you in an emergency. Practicing something that is wrong just means you can do the wrong thing faster.I've been thinking about a thermos more and more. I tend not to use stuff on day trips that I don't use on overnights, but I'm thinking more and more that a thermos might be very nice on overnights. I just bought a couple of cheap aluminum flasks, 2oz for 1 litre. I like the fact that they can be heated directly and so I want to make a hobbo stove that fits them perfectly, and an insulated jacket, or perhaps socks, to keep them warm, and perhaps cool enough when hot to wear under a sweater. Still no good for melting snow however, and no good for eating oatmeal etc, so my hobbo stove would still need to work with some sort of a pot. Kelly Kettle still has its merits as it is wicked fast and very robust in even the worst conditions, but its achiles heel is its inability to melt snow. I have not built a hobbo stove I am happy with for extreme weather. The best compromise for me so far is the Kelly Kettle, plus keeping at least 500ml in an insulated flask that can be kept unfrozen or reheated if frozen, and use that with the Kelly Kettle and a pot to heat to boiling and melt snow repeatedly until I have used what I need and refilled all my containers. My pot over a simple small fire is a fallback, but it is too inefficient and too slow unreliable when the chips are down so it is important to keep at least 500ml liquid water in reserve when using a Kelly Kettle, which ain't a bad idea anyhow.

So I am thinking of knitting some wool tube socks for my aluminum flasks.
They will also serve as backup socks, since there are two of them. :)

[Alligator]

...I'm still with the camp that values fire as a winter necessity :D. I do not agree that a fire is not neccesary for prolonged winter camping. That's just me.Arctic explorers do not build fires everyday. I'm talking the folks under their own power. Granted, we're not in the Arctic on the AT, but the principle is the same, surviving in cold weather. You don't need a fire when you are prepared appropriately. Counting on it could be dangerous.

[doggiebag]

Arctic explorers do not build fires everyday. I'm talking the folks under their own power. Granted, we're not in the Arctic on the AT, but the principle is the same, surviving in cold weather. You don't need a fire when you are prepared appropriately. Counting on it could be dangerous.

I have to disagree. In winter conditions I would never send anyone out on a extended outing without ensuring that they had the ability and skills to have a warming fire.

[JAK]

I see no issue with reinforcing what we know with regards to these basic skills regarding winter survival. In fact IMHO the skills needed to be shared to the new batch of hikers needs reinforcing. I'm lucky enough to have succesfully self-rescue myself from hypothermic conditions as plenty of us have. It's the inexperienced batch of hikers venturing out of the safety net guaranteed by society that needs this advise. Whatever can be shared can save a life. I'm still with the camp that values fire as a winter necessity :D. I do not agree that a fire is not neccesary for prolonged winter camping. That's just me.I am also of the wood and wool school, but I think its partly a below treeline thing.

I am not totally against shaming people for their mistakes either. It's also an old tradition, and such traditions are seldom without some merit. The trick is doing so with wisdom and humility, neither of which I have much to share. When in basic training, our Directing Staff Platoon Commander told us something that stuck with me. Well many things, but this thing he said was that you can't ever hope to change someone you are leading unless you love them first. It was rather interesting coming from a hardened soldier of war. You can learn to kill without hatred, but you can't change someone unless you love them. Anyhow, it seems that nature can change us, so I suppose that means she must love us. Of course, she can just as soon kill us, but she is sometimes our only option where our angels fear to tread. No, not our only option. We could also learn to love and trust ourselves. ;)

[eventidecu]

I have an idea that might help out your meal clean up when you don't have time or inclination or mobility but still need substantial nourishment. Back during the Super Bowl I had a party and while shopping I ran across some crock pot liners that were similar to an oven bag but looked like a big zip lock without the close. ( I figured put use them to keep the crock from getting nasty with the hot wing baked on gunk, worked perfect) One could probably use these as pot liners cutting the corners out of a big one getting two out of one bag. Cook your mac n chz to your hearts content with no clean up. Just a thought.

[Alligator]

I have to disagree. In winter conditions I would never send anyone out on a extended outing without ensuring that they had the ability and skills to have a warming fire.My example clearly shows that the fire is not necessary. Extended winter backpacking would have the problem of condensation buildup in the sleeping bag. Your bag could get too heavy. But you don't need the fire. You do need warm clothes and a sleeping bag though.

I bring this up in this thread because too many people think that in an emergency you need to build a fire. Get out of the wet clothes and into your bag instead.

If you are separated from your gear, then a fire may be the only option. You ought to have fire building skills as a backup plan.

[Alligator]

I have an idea that might help out your meal clean up when you don't have time or inclination or mobility but still need substantial nourishment. Back during the Super Bowl I had a party and while shopping I ran across some crock pot liners that were similar to an oven bag but looked like a big zip lock without the close. ( I figured put use them to keep the crock from getting nasty with the hot wing baked on gunk, worked perfect) One could probably use these as pot liners cutting the corners out of a big one getting two out of one bag. Cook your mac n chz to your hearts content with no clean up. Just a thought.That might work. Also, many people use freezer bag cooking to avoid a messy pot.

[take-a-knee]

My example clearly shows that the fire is not necessary. Extended winter backpacking would have the problem of condensation buildup in the sleeping bag. Your bag could get too heavy. But you don't need the fire. You do need warm clothes and a sleeping bag though.

I bring this up in this thread because too many people think that in an emergency you need to build a fire. Get out of the wet clothes and into your bag instead.

If you are separated from your gear, then a fire may be the only option. You ought to have fire building skills as a backup plan.

And what is your backup plan if your bag is wet? Build a fire maybe? Doggiebag is correct, learn to build a fire under adverse conditions. I've been to the arctic(in the infantry for two winters), the coldest I've ever been in my life is in a southeastern winter. Typical weather pattern: it's cool, gets cooler, rains like hell, wetting a lot of your gear, front moves through, temps drop 25, maybe 40 degrees with a 40mph wind. Conditions 12 degrees F, wind chill? Deadly. You'd best be able to improvise shelter and build a fire. Survival is LESS challenging in colder conditions when rain is removed from the equation.

[Alligator]

And what is your backup plan if your bag is wet? Build a fire maybe? Doggiebag is correct, learn to build a fire under adverse conditions. I've been to the arctic(in the infantry for two winters), the coldest I've ever been in my life is in a southeastern winter. Typical weather pattern: it's cool, gets cooler, rains like hell, wetting a lot of your gear, front moves through, temps drop 25, maybe 40 degrees with a 40mph wind. Conditions 12 degrees F, wind chill? Deadly. You'd best be able to improvise shelter and build a fire. Survival is LESS challenging in colder conditions when rain is removed from the equation.Only way my sleeping bag is going to get wet is if I **** up and leave it out of it's plastic bag then fall in a river. Then I'll just take the Darwin award. But my bag is synthetic and my big ass parka is too.

Rain at 40 F and 40 MPH winds? Bring it on. I've been in those conditions no problem. My tent will take it and my gear will take it too. I like when the ice freezes on my shell. Screw the improvised shelter, you can sit outside in that weather and piddle around with a fire, I'll be warm and toasty inside:D.

[JAK]

Arctic explorers do not build fires everyday. I'm talking the folks under their own power. Granted, we're not in the Arctic on the AT, but the principle is the same, surviving in cold weather. You don't need a fire when you are prepared appropriately. Counting on it could be dangerous.I think it could be equally dangerous not to keep ourselves well aquainted with its use and usefulness when it is in abundance. Being prepared properly sometime means being prepared to make use of local biomass fuel efficiently and effectively when it is available. Thus, depends on the individual and the environment.

[doggiebag]

Only way my sleeping bag is going to get wet is if I **** up and leave it out of it's plastic bag then fall in a river. Then I'll just take the Darwin award. But my bag is synthetic and my big ass parka is too.

Rain at 40 F and 40 MPH winds? Bring it on. I've been in those conditions no problem. My tent will take it and my gear will take it too. I like when the ice freezes on my shell. Screw the improvised shelter, you can sit outside in that weather and piddle around with a fire, I'll be warm and toasty inside:D.
This is not a pissing match. It's irresponsible to suggest that people should head out into winter hiking conditions not needing an external heat source. I'm not so casual in my suggestions. There's enough unprepared hikers out there. Hikers that have seen adverse conditions know how to handle hypothermic conditions. It's the folks just starting out that we need to outfit properly with the right suggestions and skill sets. It's not about you being warm and toasty in your shelter - it's about anyone inexperienced enough to go out there and succumbing to hypothermia because they couldn't dry their clothes or sleeping bag because they might have been foolish enough to head out without the skills and ability to dryout or warm up.

[Alligator]

I think it could be equally dangerous not to keep ourselves well aquainted with its use and usefulness when it is in abundance. Being prepared properly sometime means being prepared to make use of local biomass fuel efficiently and effectively when it is available. Thus, depends on the individual and the environment.I'm not saying don't know how to use it. Or have the ability to. I'm saying fires aren't necessary to winter backpack if you are adequately prepared. That doesn't mean I don't carry several lighters, stormproof matches, and vaseline coated cotton balls or that I can't light a fire if it's windy out.

[JAK]

I found myself in a situation once, overextended due to inexperience, where I was unsure whether I should make a fire before going to bed. I was basically unsure whether it was worth the effort. I was low on food and fuel. Conditions were very damp, even though conditions were extremely cold. It didn't seem to matter whether I slept with the tent wide open or shut tight. I tried it one way one night, and then the other on this night. Spruce sticks were plentiful, and I had it gathered and ready right after making camp, but I opted not to build the fire. If I had more food I would have, but the think was that I wasn't sure. I figured I would be OK without it, and I was, but I resolved to be more proficient in making fires in extreme conditions. I learned many many things on that trip, but that was one of them. The main thing I learned was that snow can really slow you down, and to carry more stuff that is edible and insulating, and less stuff made of metal and plastic. I did not regret any of the wool I was wearing, but it was my last winter trip bringing a tent and overbuilt backpack and raingear.

[Alligator]

This is not a pissing match. It's irresponsible to suggest that people should head out into winter hiking conditions not needing an external heat source. I'm not so casual in my suggestions. There's enough unprepared hikers out there. Hikers that have seen adverse conditions know how to handle hypothermic conditions. It's the folks just starting out that we need to outfit properly with the right suggestions and skill sets. It's not about you being warm and toasty in your shelter - it's about anyone inexperienced enough to go out there and succumbing to hypothermia because they couldn't dry their clothes or sleeping bag because they might have been foolish enough to head out without the skills and ability to dryout or warm up.If you have to build a fire as part of your daily routine you are unprepared. That's what I'm talking about here. How's that for responsibility?

[wrongway_08]

This is not a pissing match. It's irresponsible to suggest that people should head out into winter hiking conditions not needing an external heat source. I'm not so casual in my suggestions. There's enough unprepared hikers out there. Hikers that have seen adverse conditions know how to handle hypothermic conditions. It's the folks just starting out that we need to outfit properly with the right suggestions and skill sets. It's not about you being warm and toasty in your shelter - it's about anyone inexperienced enough to go out there and succumbing to hypothermia because they couldn't dry their clothes or sleeping bag because they might have been foolish enough to head out without the skills and ability to dryout or warm up.


10-4! Screw letting your body temp do all the warming of wet clothes and a bag - take 5-10 minutes to build a small fire and a little shelter, kick bag get the gear all dried out, warm yourself up and then sit back and relax! Watch the storm roll through and enjoy nature!

Everyone should learn to build a fire from wet items, it takes a little time, is going to get you pissed off before it starts but hey, once you can do it - hike on in confidence!

Also bring a little peice of fire starter, if conditions get really bad - it'll make starting that wet fire a lot easier and keep you/others safe.

[Christopher Robin]

I like to take newbes on a Fall overnite or 2 before I expose them to Winter backpacing. That way I & them know each other & what they are capable of. I like to put up a trap for a wind shealter first, then start biolind water while putting up me tent. Then chage my clothes so I am warm & dry. In my survivl training dinner should only take 10mins. I use quick foods in the Winter; dehyrated foods. Jello is good & quick warming & if I hike above treeline I take a throms of hot water & a few different drink mis & cup or soups.

[doggiebag]

If you have to build a fire as part of your daily routine you are unprepared. That's what I'm talking about here. How's that for responsibility?
Who say's that I suggested building a fire as a daily routine. I'm saying it's irresponsible to tell people that fire building is not a necessary skill when heading out in winter conditions. That's all I have to say.

[take-a-knee]

If you have to build a fire as part of your daily routine you are unprepared. That's what I'm talking about here. How's that for responsibility?

I can't argue with that logic, as long as you are prepared to build a fire just in case. For most of us city dwellers that means we ought to build fires when we go to the woods just for practice, not because we have to.

[JAK]

I'm not saying don't know how to use it. Or have the ability to. I'm saying fires aren't necessary to winter backpack if you are adequately prepared. That doesn't mean I don't carry several lighters, stormproof matches, and vaseline coated cotton balls or that I can't light a fire if it's windy out.I don't think you understand that "adequately prepared" depends on the individual and the environment. What is "adequately prepared" for me in the winter woods of New Brunswick or Maine is not the same as for you above the treeline in Smokey's or the Whites. You have to adapt to the environment, while at the same time going with what you know. If I was to venture into a new environment I would not do away with everything I know, so I would still make use of wood and wool, though I would lean more towards solutions more suitable to that environment and develop skills and experience accordingly. There are different winter environments. I think you should consider that before making such hard and wast rules. I am not sure you full understand how wet the woods can be even when its extremely cold, and how useful wood and wool can be in such conditions. It really is quite different. It can be well below freezing, when everything should be frozen, including the air, yet it isn't? Why? Well it's not just because of breath and sweat. The woods are never frozen solid. The woods are a living breathing thing just as we are. It absorbs and stores whatever heat it can whenever it can, either from the sun on frozen days, or from passing weather, or from the ground itself. Even the smallest streams can be very stubborn and might be dead and buried by day or even by week only to rise up and live another day. The air itself is constantly breathing, breathing in whatever moisture it can by day, and squeezing out all that moisture by night, not just onto your tent and onto your sleeping bag, but within your wool sweater, fleece, down vest, sleeping bag, your hair, your flesh and bones. Given a chance it will find a way into your soul, and freeze there if it can. In the Northern Woods you needn't prepare for finding yourself cold and wet. It's pretty much a given. There is no shame in it. The shame is being ill prepared to do something about it, not by lack of equipment or knowledge, or even lack of experience, but by stubborn predisposition.

[woodsy]

Mountaineers spend weeks sometimes in hostile conditions without wood fires.
Many winter hikers in the northern climes find building fires for warmth a pain in the arse and don't use them at all.

[JAK]

In the winter woods, don't just prepare for the possibility of being wet. It's pretty much a given.
Stay warm. Get cold. Warm up. Stay dry. Get wet. Dry out. Just do it.
It doesn't take very long to get better at it and you don't have to go far to find it.
Just go out there, any given week, any given day, January through March.
There it is.

[Alligator]

Who say's that I suggested building a fire as a daily routine. I'm saying it's irresponsible to tell people that fire building is not a necessary skill when heading out in winter conditions. That's all I have to say.You said fires are necessary.
I'm still with the camp that values fire as a winter necessity :D.

I said they are not everday necessary. I never said the skill was irrelevant, nor did I say they couldn't be useful. It could certainly be life-saving.

JAK-I've been to the cold Maine woods too. I base my current gear on the cold Maine winter, not lightweight southern winters:D.

[JAK]

Mountaineers spend weeks sometimes in hostile conditions without wood fires.
Many winter hikers in the northern climes find building fires for warmth a pain in the arse and don't use them at all.1. These ain't the mountains.
2. Everything about winter hiking is a pain in the arse. That's why we do it.

Most winter hikers you are talking about are basing their equipment based on alpine conditions, because most outfitters sell their equipment based on alpine conditions. Why? Don't know dont care. Perhaps its sexy.

[JAK]

You said fires are necessary.

I said they are not everday necessary. I never said the skill was irrelevant, nor did I say they couldn't be useful. It could certainly be life-saving.

JAK-I've been to the cold Maine woods too. I base my current gear on the cold Maine winter, not lightweight southern winters:D.Well then I would think you would have learned some humility.

[Alligator]

Well then I would think you would have learned some humility.I learned how to survive.

[doggiebag]

You said fires are necessary.

I said they are not everday necessary. I never said the skill was irrelevant, nor did I say they couldn't be useful. It could certainly be life-saving.

JAK-I've been to the cold Maine woods too. I base my current gear on the cold Maine winter, not lightweight southern winters:D.
:D Come on over to Maryland Alligator - I'll show you how to enjoy a campfire. :D

[woodsy]

...............

[Alligator]

:D Come on over to Maryland Alligator - I'll show you how to enjoy a campfire. :DI had a bigass fire with your buddy Fonz just a few weeks ago. Ask him who likes to collect wood:D.

*Note I didn't light the fire, Fonz did. I could have, but I was eating.

[JAK]

It's really this simple.

It's winter. In the woods.
Sometimes its extremely wet and very cold.
Sometimes its very wet and extremely cold.
Sometimes it's actually quite pleasant.

There are trees in the woods. Hmmm.
Might help warm me up and dry stuff out.
Might come in handy. Might save me some fuel.
Better get some skills and practice in extreme weather.
Better to know its effectiveness and limitations, and how it fits in.
Then decide.

[Tipi Walter]

Some have shelter with a fire inside, check out the weight of the Vertex 6.5 with carbon pole and then add the weight of the small titanium stove and pipe:

http://www.titaniumgoat.com/tents.html

I've used the old army squad tent/yukon stove system in Alaska. These guys figured out how to achieve the same result with high tech/ backpackable materials.

This, to my mind, is the secret to long-term living in the winter: Having a shelter with a firepit/woodstove. Granted, arctic explorers and mountaineers don't need a wood fire and are prepared for some frigid temps, but for long term comfort and practicality, a shelter with a fire is important.

Across parts of North America have been found prehistoric small circles of rock which held down hides in a tipi configuration. In the center was a fire and a small hole left in the tipi tripod for the smoke to leave. Or bent saplings were used to create a sort of sweatlodge style shelter or witu which also were quick to put up and allowed for smoke to exit.

Nowadays the modern backpacker has the option of using shelters with stoves as take-a-knee suggests, Titanium Goat and Kifaru come to mind. In the frontier days the old sibley tents and the wall tents could support woodheat and some comfort(but were too heavy to hump).

If someone threw me on a mountain in the winter and said "see ya in two years," I would definitely throw up a wood tripod and place sticks in a circle around the tripod and cover the whole thing in plastic or canvas tarps and get the firepit working. This tipi cone becomes a natural chimney and vents woodsmoke well enough to live in for long periods.

But as far as backpacking is concerned, the old traditional firepit can easily be replaced by a good $500 sleeping bag, a stout 4 season tent, a decent sleeping pad, and an ample down jacket. These items replace the woodstove, they become the woodstove and work extremely well in nearly all conditions.

[JAK]

I learned how to survive.Then I suggest you go with what you know and let others do the same.

[Alligator]

Then I suggest you go with what you know and let others do the same.I'm not forcing anyone here to do anything JAK. You started this advice thread:rolleyes:.

[JAK]

Thing about small woodfires is, you can't depend on it when you need it the most.
Thing is, where small woodfires are possible, you can't depend on not needing them.

Keep it small. Keep it simple. Keep it current.

How small and simple of a fire can you make?
Will a small can help? Will it help to insulate it from the ground?
How small and simple of a shelter can you make?
Will a rainponcho and ground pad do? How close can you sit?
Will this work in extreme weather? What are the limits to its usefulness?

Finally, how does it fit in with the rest of my clothing and equipment and methods?

[JAK]

I'm not forcing anyone here to do anything JAK. You started this advice thread:rolleyes:.So then try and be a little more open minded.

[Alligator]

So then try and be a little more open minded.I gave the necessity argument consideration and found it wanting. You're just upset that another of your romantic notions about hiking doesn't float. Fire isn't a regular necessity for winter backpacking. It can be an emergency survival tool. It can be comforting. It can be useful to some degree in drying things. But the fact of the matter is one can easily winter hike without it with normal preparation. One should count on NOT having it. That the wind is too much, the rain is too much, the snow is too deep, etc. That's what is important. That you should take more precaution and work harder to prevent your gear from getting wet while insuring adequate warm clothes and a properly rated bag.

[NICKTHEGREEK]

Mountains or no, it's still winter and the weather is hard to judge. Before you go just for fun, read:
http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Jack_London/To_Build_a_Fire/To_Build_a_Fire_p1.html

Nothing short of a white phosphorus grenade starts a fire better than a road flare. It's your life

[LIhikers]

Last week I was out in northern MN where the night time temps were -25F and the white gas stoves worked fine. Sure we had to take off our mittens and gloves to get them started but it didn't take long and the stoves started on the first try each time with some fuel put on the burner as a primer.

[sheepdog]

When it hits the fan, one should never underestimate the simple will to live. Practicing skills is important, a never say die attitude is vital. Like my pal Josie Wales says "When things get tough and you think you ain't going to make it. You gotta get plum mad dog mean!"

[hammock engineer]

Ah yes the famous Outlaw Josie Wales.

[sheepdog]

One of the greatest movies of all time.

[JAK]

I gave the necessity argument consideration and found it wanting. You're just upset that another of your romantic notions about hiking doesn't float. Fire isn't a regular necessity for winter backpacking. It can be an emergency survival tool. It can be comforting. It can be useful to some degree in drying things. But the fact of the matter is one can easily winter hike without it with normal preparation. One should count on NOT having it. That the wind is too much, the rain is too much, the snow is too deep, etc. That's what is important. That you should take more precaution and work harder to prevent your gear from getting wet while insuring adequate warm clothes and a properly rated bag.No I just got upset because you were arguing just one point of view while I was trying to discuss the merits in both, in order to possible find some simple yet workable generalized set of concepts and methods, which might permit people to develop their own solution to suit their individual and environmental situations and circumstances. So go right ahead and keep repeating the same thing. So go right ahead and be more right, though not all the time. I will be right right along with you when it suits me to do so, and off doing my own thing when it does not. My solution includes yours. Your solution excludes mine. If that works best for you, go with it.

[Alligator]

Nobody is preventing you from developing your own solutions but you you you JAK. It's your fingers and brain operated by you. You don't like what I'm saying, keep your finger off the submit button.

BTW I am right, and you haven't demonstrated me to be wrong yet. You thought you could drag in the North Woods but I called you on it. If everyday you are rolling into camp and needing to start a fire, you are doing something wrong. You are letting yourself get wet and/or cold and both are very dangerous. Compound that with needing a warming fire daily and I think you are not anyone to be giving advice.

When I roll into camp, I put on a few dry warm clothes and either grab some grub or set up shelter. I might grab a little water too. If those needs are met I will collect wood provided the weather is decent because sitting outside in the rain or wind isn't really worth the fire. It's simply not needed.

Saying you need a fire is admitting that you are unprepared for those situations were a fire is not possible. Bad move in the winter when all it takes is a few small blunders to rock your world.

[woodsy]

Jaks rebuttal..........

[JAK]

Nobody is preventing you from developing your own solutions but you you you JAK. It's your fingers and brain operated by you. You don't like what I'm saying, keep your finger off the submit button.

BTW I am right, and you haven't demonstrated me to be wrong yet. You thought you could drag in the North Woods but I called you on it. If everyday you are rolling into camp and needing to start a fire, you are doing something wrong. You are letting yourself get wet and/or cold and both are very dangerous. Compound that with needing a warming fire daily and I think you are not anyone to be giving advice.

When I roll into camp, I put on a few dry warm clothes and either grab some grub or set up shelter. I might grab a little water too. If those needs are met I will collect wood provided the weather is decent because sitting outside in the rain or wind isn't really worth the fire. It's simply not needed.

Saying you need a fire is admitting that you are unprepared for those situations were a fire is not possible. Bad move in the winter when all it takes is a few small blunders to rock your world.You've been too rhetorical and argumentative.

[Alligator]

You've been too rhetorical and argumentative.Thanks for playing, don't let the door hit you in the ass.

[JAK]

Why are you doing this?

You made some good points, but refused to acknowledge others even when they partially agreed with your points. You keep insisting that I and others have said fire is a neccessity when we've only argued that it is often useful, and therefore its worth being prepared and practiced to make best use of it. What's up?

[doggiebag]

Why are you doing this?

You made some good points, but refused to acknowledge others even when they partially agreed with your points. You keep insisting that I and others have said fire is a neccessity when we've only argued that it is often useful, and therefore its worth being prepared and practiced to make best use of it. What's up?
http://www.mutantreviewers.com/ryf2.jpg

Fire Baddddd! Fiiireeeee Baaaaaaad!!!

[JAK]

I think you needlessly ruined what started out as a pretty decent thread.
Congrats.

[JAK]

Anyhow, what got me thinking about this thread was Rock's journal and I was wondering how he was making out making use of fire, how it might be saving him some fuel, providing him some comfort, and how his simple hobbo stove means and methods might be evolving. Now it might be better to leave that for another thread and another day, and perhaps his other forum.

[Alligator]

I think you needlessly ruined what started out as a pretty decent thread.
Congrats.It was all me JAK and you had nothing to do with it? You agreed with Doggiebag that fire was a necessity. I challenged that and provided reasons. I didn't suggest you lack humility, call you close minded, or state that you were too rhetorical and argumentative. I stuck to my argument because you were giving bad advice. Hope that explains things.

[JAK]

Yeah that explains things.

[Wise Old Owl]

This is the kind of post I like, an in-depth study of one facet of backpacking: Cold weather stove useage.



The biggest problem I have when cooking in low temps is the cleaning of the danged pot after the meal. Usually this can be done with a paper towel, especially in a teflon pot, but if the titanium pot gets gunked up with mac and cheese, nothing but a thorough scrubbing in COLD WATER will clean it. Talk about frozen fingers!

Tipi - you are a wealth of "I have been there G-damit" Information. I appreciate your candor and I hope you go back to the Media & Photo stuff I posted this morning in answer to your recent post on Digital Camera's

[shelterbuilder]

I've winter camped and backpacked since the mid-70's, and only rarely had a wood fire - white gas stove for cooking; hot food and hot sugary drinks for body fuel.

That having been said, the last winter trip that Iwas on - several weeks ago in Pa. with minimal snow cover and moderate wind - I DID make a fire (with a reflecting wall behind it) just for the heck of it - and it was nice to be able to squat by the fire, open my vest and let the warm just radiate in on me.

There is a saying that is attibuted to a long-dead Native American who was talking about fire and winter: "White man get cold, build huge fire, need to step back, still cold. Red man get cold, build little fire, get close, stay plenty warm."

I think that there's a time and place for no fire, and a time and place for a good, cozy fire - one small enough to get close to and stay warm by. When you limit your options, you limit your chances....

And I'm with JAK with regard to wool - love it!:banana

[Wise Old Owl]

When you feel like you've gathered enough firewood for the evening ... specially during winter - triple what you've got (I've even heard that you should gather up to as much as 5 times of what you think you'll need). When I run into birch bark - I usually stock up for future use. Most people head downhill from camp to gather fire wood (natural instinct) - head uphill from camp when looking. Winter hiking is beautiful and fun but it comes at the cost of being .

Wow Could not agree with you more. And in winter it isn't hard in the woods as the cold makes branches easier to snap.

[JAK]

Ironically, when I opened this thread it was not so much to speak of the neccessity or merits of small wood fires, but to balance that with their limitations, and the need to investigate their usefulness and limitations in more extreme conditions. I thinks its best to be prepared to make use of them while also being prepared to find them less than useless. For warming and drying they definitely work best when there is no wind at all. We don't always have that luxury, but it is more common in the woods than on the barrens. Also, more common at night, as the wind tends to drop after the sun goes down. In a really strong cold north wind however, you can't seem to catch a break day or night. When the wind is colder than the land even at night, as in an cold outbreak, the wind is most turbulent and gusty even deep in the woods as the gusts can break down through the canopy. So there will always be times when you just gotta ride things out. It should almost always be possible to make tea though, and the smallest warming fire might only be a small step from that if you manage to get things just right. I think its worthy of practice. Start with the ability to make tea quickly and easily from snow by the simplest means even in nasty conditions using wood fuel as your primary or alternate means to conserve your other means, then build on that experience. It's useful, even if unreliable. The only thing I would argue is neccessary about it is the need to practice it occassionally in extreme conditions to be more likely to make good use of it in extreme conditions. Like eskimo rolls, even if unreliable and uneccessary, worth practicing.

[doggiebag]

Thing about small woodfires is, you can't depend on it when you need it the most.
Thing is, where small woodfires are possible, you can't depend on not needing them.

Keep it small. Keep it simple. Keep it current.

How small and simple of a fire can you make?
Will a small can help? Will it help to insulate it from the ground?
How small and simple of a shelter can you make?
Will a rainponcho and ground pad do? How close can you sit?
Will this work in extreme weather? What are the limits to its usefulness?

Finally, how does it fit in with the rest of my clothing and equipment and methods?

On my last outing in the Whites I was caught in freezing rain below treeline.
I was able to build a small fire under my tarp using the windscreen of my whisperlight stove as a makeshift wood stove. It was small enough to keep lit under a large Hennesey Hammock tarp that I had setup as a lean-to. Though smokey ... it was enough to keep me somewhat warm through the evening where my sleeping bag was soaked. I wished I had either a hobo stove or a bushbuddy wood stove since that would have allowed me to sit closer to the heat source with less risk of clothing or shelter damage due to any popping embers. Though the conditions were extremely wet I had no problems finding enough downed wood to burn overnight. My next major purchase will be a simple woodstove. I'll probably carry a trangia alcohol stove as a backup. I usually just wear my thrift store fleece jackets when I'm close to fire - no sense in burning holes in my rain gear - though that's already happened as well. One thing I love about the north woods - lot's of birch :D.

[doggiebag]

Ironically, when I opened this thread it was not so much to speak of the neccessity or merits of small wood fires, but to balance that with their limitations, and the need to investigate their usefulness and limitations in more extreme conditions. I thinks its best to be prepared to make use of them while also being prepared to find them less than useless. For warming and drying they definitely work best when there is no wind at all. We don't always have that luxury, but it is more common in the woods than on the barrens. Also, more common at night, as the wind tends to drop after the sun goes down. In a really strong cold north wind however, you can't seem to catch a break day or night. When the wind is colder than the land even at night, as in an cold outbreak, the wind is most turbulent and gusty even deep in the woods as the gusts can break down through the canopy. So there will always be times when you just gotta ride things out. It should almost always be possible to make tea though, and the smallest warming fire might only be a small step from that if you manage to get things just right. I think its worthy of practice. Start with the ability to make tea quickly and easily from snow by the simplest means even in nasty conditions using wood fuel as your primary or alternate means to conserve your other means, then build on that experience. It's useful, even if unreliable. The only thing I would argue is neccessary about it is the need to practice it occassionally in extreme conditions to be more likely to make good use of it in extreme conditions. Like eskimo rolls, even if unreliable and uneccessary, worth practicing.
When the going get's really dicey ... I'll usually just stay awake most of the night keeping a fire going. I can always catch a few hours of sleep when during the daytime and when the sun is up and things are somewhat safer/warmer. This method may be outside of the norm - but it's worked for me hiking northbound late in the season. To each his own. It's all about conserving calories - if I can stay warm using external sources - I can conserve my food since I don't have to rely on warming myself by burning food calories. It's all about the weight. Outside of burning calories at the cellular level ie:food - you can burn fossil fuels and achieve the same margin of comfort and safety.

[JAK]

Wow Could not agree with you more. And in winter it isn't hard in the woods as the cold makes branches easier to snap.I have found that the ability to snap branches is useful not just to gather the fuel but also in recognizing what is worth gathering. The lower dead spruce branches seem to always be most snappable and always reliable, and are thankfully abundant here, but not in every acre of the woods obviously. Eastern cedar is a good alternative, but usually not as snappable, and can sometimes be troublesome. Sometimes ice droplets are frozen in amongst the bark and needles and that is more trouble. I try and depend entirely on squaw wood, mostly as a time saver, but sometimes it is useful to have a strong knife or small hatchet to make use of dryer layers of wood in fallen trees or thicker branches. Usually I don't need or want stuff that thick for smaller fires and hobbo stoves and my Kelly Kettle, but it is more likely to be a good option in winter if I might want to build a small stove fire into something bigger. A hatchet is my preference in winter because it is also more useful for shelter building or chopping through ice though I rarely do either. Admittedly, its hard to justify the extra pound, when it could be an extra pound of wool or down or food. Still, a small hatchet, a few nails rather than tent pegs, and some extra cord can be very useful to have if you are likely to make use of them on a regular enough basis, depending on where you travel and what time of year. I don't think you need to go to that extreme to find fire useful however. Being able to make tea from bark and snow is useful enough, and for that a simple hobbo stove can make things easier enough to be more useful in more extreme conditions. Haven't made a hobbo stove I am happy enough with yet, but I've never regretted any of my attempts, successful or otherwise. Small candle stoves can be useful also, even under a poncho while wearing it, at least in theory, though theory and practice are often the same in theory, but different in practice.

[JAK]

When the going get's really dicey ... I'll usually just stay awake most of the night keeping a fire going. I can always catch a few hours of sleep when during the daytime and when the sun is up and things are somewhat safer/warmer. This method may be outside of the norm - but it's worked for me hiking northbound late in the season. To each his own. It's all about conserving calories - if I can stay warm using external sources - I can conserve my food since I don't have to rely on warming myself by burning food calories. It's all about the weight. Outside of burning calories at the cellular level ie:food - you can burn fossil fuels and achieve the same margin of comfort and safety.I have done more thinking along those lines than actual doing, but I think its an excellent think to practice even when you don't need to and something I haven't done enough of. I would like to get back out on the ice down from my house before winter is over and maybe stay up all night and see if those Eastern Coyotes pay another visit. I would like to get a picture if possible. Getting into March we are less likely to get the extreme cold, but there is still a chance of extreme cold, and plenty of opportunity for extreme wet and cold. See if I can make a better hobbo stove than last time.

[doggiebag]

When I was going through the Whites in late October last year - my main concern was speed. That being said I was still NOBO with a 4 season hammock and a 30 degree bag. I got pretty good at setting up camp early to stock up my wood pile just to make it through the evening. It's a completely different animal when you're in the Whites solo late in the season. I couldn't afford the weight of a kelly kettle let alone a hatchet. Plenty of downed wood allowed me to stay out there for as long as I did. Though eventually my equipment at the time forced me to call it quits 300 miles south of Kathadin. On shorter trips - I have no problem with hauling a winter load in the upper 40 low fifty pound range. Going through the Whites and the ridges of New Hampshire without too many options of resuplly was downright scary at times - the huts were closed and I only had Pinkham Notch as a resupply option between Franconia Notch and Gorham, NH. Over the last several months I've improved on my winter survival gear and skills. I still have plenty to learn - it was tough. Each person's view of what is tolerable is different. It's all a learning thing.

[Toolshed]

In my trail journals I often write about this very cold weather lethargy, I call it winter inertia. It's especially bad when stuck in a tent during a nasty blizzard, there's an old stone age desire to stay put in the only warm nest/cave for miles around. And as the shelter gets walloped by snow and ice and wind, what sane person would try and take down the only real home he has? So I tend to stay put for days and get comfy and cozy.

Then there's the extreme temperature dips, and the eyes and nose and mouth feels it first, that peculiar minus 20-30 below zero heartache that turns backpacking into a winter running-with-the-bulls. But the way I see it, there are regular bag nights and then there are the frigid Jeremiah Johnson-mountain man bag nights which sure look good in the trip reports. Add a few fotogs of the ice cold conditions and scratch another notch in the old pistol belt.
Oh Boy!!!! you sadi it. Gotta love those mornings when it is so far below zero that the gas in your W-lite doesn't throw fumes and takes a few seconds of warming up before the gasoline lights.
... Trees exploding at 2AM.
... Getting up to pee at 11PM, 2:15 AM, 5AM and then finally at 6:30 AM.
... Each time shaking and jumping around as the cold curls it's long nimble fingers around every exposed body part...
.... Feeling frost feathers down your back as you leave and enter the tent.
... Mass evacuation - one gets up, we all get up or we face the torrents of ice bits being shaken down on on our faces.
... Sitting in your bag inside tent at 6:15 PM awaiing the long 12 hour night ahead drinking hot Jack and jello (Yukon Jack/cherry jello).
I love these subzero trips!!!!!!

[Erin]

We get cold here too. Last Easter weekend was an example of a spring camp out where it was 12 degrees and very windy. Yeah, we went anyway. The tent was the first priority. The jet boil does well in cold weather, but needs a wind block. Water bottles went into the sleeping bag to keep from freezing. Boots in a bag also at bottom of sleeping bag to keep them from freezing. A hat does wonders to keep one warm. The big gloves are a hassle, so I used silk liners to cook and they did fine for a bit. Getting up at two AM to pee? Oh, that was tough! Take a book since you are in your tent and bedded down at dark and wide awake at seven PM listening to the whack, whack, whack of the tent walls from the wind. The plus side is that hardly anyone else is out, the sunrises are beautiful and there are no bugs.

[ed bell]

I think you needlessly ruined what started out as a pretty decent thread.
Congrats.C'mon JAK, the thread is still a great one. You just don't have the same vantage point as those who aren't "getting in the trenches" over a difference of opinion.:sun Thanks for starting it.

[Wise Old Owl]

Jak on the inside there is too much to read, but you are without question a bit focused on how well the thead is going and this is a needed discussion.

Please don't take this wrong ...Grab your Planters and make the best of it.. Experienced people need to talk about serious cold weather and we need to rally for our freinds. You did a great job of bringing up some interesting concerns.

Please don't get down about the thread. Some of the people that haven,t weighed in that tear up a thead have ignored it up to now, That is a good sign.


Light a campfire - others will simply be drawn. MS

[JAK]

If its indeed a good thread it will carry on despite my myopia and oversensitivity.

It does freaks me out how much more difficult even a bic lighter and Kelly Kettle is when you really need it to work. There is much to be said for more practice in cold weather, but also freedom from overdependance on such things. Sucks when you can't make fire though. After all, pyromania and partisan rhetoric are all that separate us from the lower life forms.

[oops56]

On my last outing in the Whites I was caught in freezing rain below treeline.
I was able to build a small fire under my tarp using the windscreen of my whisperlight stove as a makeshift wood stove. It was small enough to keep lit under a large Hennesey Hammock tarp that I had setup as a lean-to. Though smokey ... it was enough to keep me somewhat warm through the evening where my sleeping bag was soaked. I wished I had either a hobo stove or a bushbuddy wood stove since that would have allowed me to sit closer to the heat source with less risk of clothing or shelter damage due to any popping embers. Though the conditions were extremely wet I had no problems finding enough downed wood to burn overnight. My next major purchase will be a simple woodstove. I'll probably carry a trangia alcohol stove as a backup. I usually just wear my thrift store fleece jackets when I'm close to fire - no sense in burning holes in my rain gear - though that's already happened as well. One thing I love about the north woods - lot's of birch :D.
Brich smells good also

[doggiebag]

If its indeed a good thread it will carry on despite my myopia and oversensitivity.

It does freaks me out how much more difficult even a bic lighter and Kelly Kettle is when you really need it to work. There is much to be said for more practice in cold weather, but also freedom from overdependance on such things. Sucks when you can't make fire though. After all, pyromania and partisan rhetoric are all that separate us from the lower life forms.
If I can't start a fire ... how can I light my ciggarette? I've always viewed smoking as something that separates me from the animals. Tobacco is high in fiber as well :D.

[hammock engineer]

I can't believe I am still reading this. Usually I stop after it turns to this.

But fires are fun and entertaining. After all if you don't like night hiking and are not doing huge miles, it is dark a really long time. I can only sit or lay in my shelter so long. It turns a 12+ hour sleeping bag or hammock hang into a more managable 7 or 8 hour one.

Plus come on they are fun to cook over.

[JAK]

Brich smells good alsoTaste good also.
The stuff that doesn't burn so well tastes better. Wintergreen.

[JAK]

If I can't start a fire ... how can I light my ciggarette? I've always viewed smoking as something that separates me from the animals. Tobacco is high in fiber as well :D.All the old photos and paintings I see of micmacs they seem to be smoking a pipe, especially the ladies always seemed to have a pipe. I've often wondered if it was also a traditional way of keeping an ember going to start a fire when needed.

[Lone Wolf]

I went for a morning hiking a few weeks back when it was extremely cold, like 0F or so, and it reminded me just how much more difficult it is to start fires and stoves in extreme cold weather. There are many different aspects to this phenomenon, and many different repercussions, and measures which might be taken to mitigate.



Comments/Suggestions ???

don't hike in extreme cold weather. duh

[JAK]

Ya gotta respect though, all those deer and moose and even smaller critters that manage to survive day in day out all winter long without using any fire, or much else for that matter besides the clothes on their back and whatever natural habitat they make use of, all winter long. Course they don't all make it, but at least folks don't go online and call them all idiots when they don't. I think an eastern coyote might be my choice. The odds on individual rabbits aren't all that good. Bears do well, but more the females than the males, and besides I like winter too much to spend it all sleeping.


I Wan'na Be Like You

Now I'm the king of the swingers
Oh, the jungle VIP
I've reached the top and had to stop
And that's what botherin' me
I wanna be a man, mancub
And stroll right into town
And be just like the other men
I'm tired of monkeyin' around!

Oh, oobee doo
I wanna be like you
I wanna walk like you
Talk like you, too
You'll see it's true
An ape like me
Can learn to be humen too

Gee, cousin Louie
You're doin' real good

Now here's your part of the deal, cuz
Lay the secret on me of man's red fire

But I don't know how to make fire

Now don't try to kid me, mancub
I made a deal with you
What I desire is man's red fire
To make my dream come true
Give me the secret, mancub
Clue me what to do
Give me the power of man's red flower
So I can be like you

You!
I wanna be like you
I wanna talk like you
Walk like you, too
You'll see it's true
Someone like me
Can learn to be
Like someone like me
Can learn to be
Like someone like you
Can learn to be
Like someone like me!

[doggiebag]

All the old photos and paintings I see of micmacs they seem to be smoking a pipe, especially the ladies always seemed to have a pipe. I've often wondered if it was also a traditional way of keeping an ember going to start a fire when needed.
I kinda doubt it ... the Micmacs were primarily hunters and fishermen. Ever try to stalk a deer with a lit pipe? It's not happening. The First Nations peoples of that period probably did not need to travel with a fire horn. Flint and steel or bow and drill was probably more practical.

[doggiebag]

Thought I would bring this up before winter is over.

I went for a morning hiking a few weeks back when it was extremely cold, like 0F or so, and it reminded me just how much more difficult it is to start fires and stoves in extreme cold weather. There are many different aspects to this phenomenon, and many different repercussions, and measures which might be taken to mitigate.


Comments/Suggestions ???


don't hike in extreme cold weather. duh

I gotta admit - that's effin funny.

[JAK]

Very good point, but the ladies did not stalk deer so much. But they were seaside maritime folks in summer mostly, and went inland in winter for hares and bears and moose and caribou. Deer came later with lumberjacks. The pictures I see they are often posing outside a wigwam, where I suppose they would keep a fire going all the time anyway, but also pictures where they are landing in their canoes like they are about to make camp. Also on short migrations inland in the fall or back to the seashore in spring they would most likely bring some means of firestarting with them. A pipe might be a nice way to pass the time on such a trip. Likely they had other means also, flint and steel since 1500, and matches not long after. Before 1500 it is very difficult to say.

[doggiebag]

Evidence of flint and steel use has been documented all the way back to 15,000 years ago ... though this was in a Belgian cave. Though Native Americans have been pretty sophisticated with their use of fire: hunting, signaling, trapping, warfare, pest management - even killing and felling trees before they had access to axes. I'd bet they got pretty good at firestarting with whatever was handy. Heck ... I can start a fire with flint and steel within 3 strokes.

[JAK]

Interesting early reference to Micmacs and fire starting, and pipes, though no mention of pipes for firestarting.

http://faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.belanger/quebechistory/encyclopedia/MicmacsofNovaScotia-MikmaqsofNovaScotia.htm

The Micmacs [Mi'kmaqs] of Nova Scotia




[This text was written in 1898. For the full citation, see the end of the document.]

The Micmac tribe of Indians in Nova Scotia is of more historic than present importance. The following account of its customs and history was written by Dr. J. Bernard Gilpin, B.A., M.R.C.S., in 1877, and cannot well be improved upon for conciseness and completeness: "We find that as early as the sixteenth century the shores of Nova Scotia were frequented by fishermen of various nations, and in greater numbers than is usually supposed. Thus when Lescarbot, in 1609, gives us his minute descriptions of the Indians two or three generations must have then passed since the Iron Age had commenced its operations on the races of the stone period. Iron knives and axes, the steel and flint with its great powers of carrying fire everywhere, and coarse potteries and beads must have begun to modify their habits. The ancient arrow-maker must have ceased his art; the son must have used an axe foreign to his father, and the squaw commenced to ornament her skins with French beads instead of small shells. The first name by which they were called by the French is Souriquois or Sourique. This name seems almost identical with Iroquois, Arromouchiquois, and Algonquin.

...

In a print of the period from Champlain, of the palisaded forts in Canada, the structure is much more elaborate, and built of hewn timber, but Lescarbot distinctly asserts that those Indians never felled trees, not even for firewood. The few household utensils they possessed were of wood, stone and horn, or bone. They had pots of a very coarse baked pottery, and stone axes and mallets, knives and gouges. Deers' horns and bone were also used; and from a recent deposit at Lunenburg we find copper knife blades and needles made from the native copper of the Bay of Fundy, hammered into shape. They also had the beautiful racquet or snow shoe, that has come down to us unaltered. These simple utensils, with their skins and furs, and the boat or canoe that transported them from sea-coast to lake side, formed all their wealth. They had already acquired the habit of smoking ; and though they did carve their pipes sometimes into forms of animals, yet the usual pipe was a stone hollowed at one end into a pan, into which they stuck a quill or hollow reed. In their wars they used clubs, bows and arrows, and shields, and lances or spears headed with stone. These wars were carried on with much forethought and energy. Membertou, the old Sagamos at Port Royal, brought men from Miramichi and St. John's River , and made a rendezvous with his own from Nova Scotia, at Grand Marian, before attacking the tribes that resided in what is now called Massachusetts . They brought home the heads of their enemies, which they embalmed and hung about their necks in triumph, but there is no mention of scalping.

...

[doggiebag]

Interesting early reference to Micmacs and fire starting, and pipes, though no mention of pipes for firestarting.

They brought home the heads of their enemies, which they embalmed and hung about their necks in triumph, but there is no mention of scalping.

...
I guess a whole embalmed head works as a better doorstop than a scalp. :eek: - it's getting late.

[JAK]

Evidence of flint and steel use has been documented all the way back to 15,000 years ago ... though this was in a Belgian cave. Though Native Americans have been pretty sophisticated with their use of fire: hunting, signaling, trapping, warfare, pest management - even killing and felling trees before they had access to axes. I'd bet they got pretty good at firestarting with whatever was handy. Heck ... I can start a fire with flint and steel within 3 strokes.I would guess that the Micmac did not have widespread access to iron or steel much before 1500, though the Norse did smelt bog iron up in Newfoundland around 1000, and had contact with the now extinct Beothuk who likewise had contact with the Micmac. The Inuit did have access and make use of a very good source of steel from a major chunk of 'sky metal' up in Greenland, and they used that for arrowheads and such and might also have traded some down Labrador and such trade goods could travel a long ways through various stages.

Still, my guess is that they mostly depended on keeping a fire going, and starting a fire from scratch using friction methods when that failed. There are many old legends that speak of keeping such fires going, Here is one such story, a creation story which tends to be among the older stories, and often involve fire as one of the more prominent elements:

http://www.ilhawaii.net/~stony/lore21.html

MicMac Creation Story

From Chapter 5 of 7 ...

Nogami cleaned the animal to get it ready for eating. She gathered the still hot sparks for the lightening which hit the ground when Glooscap was given life. She placed dry wood over the coals to make a fire. This fire became the Great Spirit Fire and later go to be known as the Great Council Fire.


From Chapter 7 of 7 ...

After the passing of seven winters, "elwigneg daasiboongeg", seven sparks will fly from the fire and when they land on the ground seven people will come to life. Seven more sparks will land on the ground and seven more people will come into existence. From these sparks will form seven women and seven men. They will form seven families. These seven families will disperse into seven different directions from the area of the Great Fire. Glooscap said that once the seven families their place of destination, they will further divide into seven groups.

...

Glooscap told his mother that after the passing of seven winters, each of the seven groups would return to the place of the Great Fire. At the place of the fire all the people will dance, sing and drum in celebration of their continued existence in the Mik'Maq world. Glooscap continued by saying that the Great Fire signified the power of the Great Spirit Creator, Gisoolg. It also signified the power and strength of the light and heat of Nisgam, the sun. The Great Fire held the strength of Ootsitgamoo the earth. Finally the fire represented the bolt of lightening which hit the earth from which Glooscap was created. The fire is very sacred to the Mik'Maqs. It is the most powerful spirit on earth.

Glooscap told his mother and nephew that it is important for the Mik'Maq to give honour, respect and thanks to the seven spiritual elements. The fire signifies the first four stages of creation, Gisoolg, Nisgam, Oositgamoo and Glooscap. Fire plays a significant role in the last three stages as it represents the power of the sun, Nisgam.

...

The pipe will be lit from sweetgrass which was lit from the Great Fire. The tobacco made from bark, leaves and sweetgrass represents Glooscap's grandmother, nephew and mother. The tobacco called "spebaggan" will be smoked and the smoke will be blown in seven directions.



JAK: No mention of starting fires from a pipe however.
Nothing more than untested and unresearched theory on my part.
No, not even theory. Barely and idea, an ember of an idea.

[JAK]

I guess a whole embalmed head works as a better doorstop than a scalp. :eek: - it's getting late.I've read references that scalping was introduced by Europeans, as a means of providing proof for bounties. Not sure. Embalmed heads certainly seem to have a much longer and more widespread history, even recent history. It is getting late.

[doggiebag]

I've been reading a couple of Historical fiction books based on the prehistoric ancestors of the Native Americans written by a couple of anthropologists. (W.M. Gear and Kathleen O'Neal Gear) - I'll try to eyeball their theories based on their research. Great thread - thanks for starting it.
Regards.

[JAK]

I love historical fiction. Haven't read any east coast stuff though, other than Farfarers by Farley Mowatt, aka Hardly Knowit. It was a good read, from a European perspective. The Micmac legends are very good but you get a sense that a lot of it is rebuilt from other tribes, though you can never tell whether that is recent or ancient as that sort of thing is ever present in every culture, young and old, large and small. I am not sure of the pedegree of that Micmac Creation legend I posted. There is also stuff that links Glooscap with Henry Sinclair and so forth, which is fun stuff, but us Europeans tend to eat that stuff up and put too much emphasis on it. Going the other way I have often wondered if the stories of Seal People of Scotland and Ireland have origins in Native Americans that have occassionally washed up on distant shores.

[JAK]

Somewhat general but apparently sound anthropological overview for North America:

http://www.cabrillo.edu/~crsmith/anth7_hist1.html

[fonsie]

I had a bigass fire with your buddy Fonz just a few weeks ago. Ask him who likes to collect wood:D.

*Note I didn't light the fire, Fonz did. I could have, but I was eating.

Yea to bad I spent most the night looking for my buddie that night. I seen him a couple of weeks later at cramton gap...boy Evan and I was ragging him. We got to the ed garvey shelter and there was so much wood chopped up that we were throwing log like trees and when it was raining that night the rain decentergrating thats how hot we had that fire. I'll try to upload some of the pics this weekand. I amit having a fire is good but when im out bye myself I dont normally get one going, just im normally just set up my tent and crawl in my bag...

[Alligator]

Yea to bad I spent most the night looking for my buddie that night. I seen him a couple of weeks later at cramton gap...boy Evan and I was ragging him. We got to the ed garvey shelter and there was so much wood chopped up that we were throwing log like trees and when it was raining that night the rain decentergrating thats how hot we had that fire. I'll try to upload some of the pics this weekand. I amit having a fire is good but when im out bye myself I dont normally get one going, just im normally just set up my tent and crawl in my bag...I've had fires like that in the rain:D.

Did your buddy ever call you that day? I didn't have a signal later, but I checked down the cabin trail and found him in the woods. It was an "I'm going to stop right here spot". A little sloped, not a regular camping spot:o. He was still sleeping too, it was almost noon. I told him to make sure he called you.

[fonsie]

Ok back to stoves now...I just use my alchohul stove now(someone teesed me about having 2 stoves in my pack). I tend to use twice the fuel when its 10* out but it works fine. I Just resently bout a wisper lite for if I ever do any high altitude camping out west in the winter, or if I go old school besides it was on sale. I learned to carry some bic lighters in your pocket so you can light stuff. O yea nice wool gloves for camp... fleece melts to close to the fire or when you grab a hot handle, 3 pairs this winter. I dont carry extra clothes anymore, someone told me try not to sweat and sleep with clothes in your bag they will dry. So if im hiking and it gets warm I am out hiking with just a pair of pants so I dont get my shirts wet from sweating. O and make sure you got some good water proof boots on when your out in the snow....Asolo's for now on for me they were great for that ice storm we seen a couple of weeks ago.

[fonsie]

he called me when he got home that evaning...I spack the back of his head good when I did see him....and teased the ***** out of him. I told him he was only not evan a mile away.....It took him from 8pm to 11:30 to get to that spot thats why he was'nt half way at 9:30...3.5 hour for 2 miles, boy im still not done messing with him

[greentick]

Should have mentioned:

Lethargy & Self Doubt

...Summary:
1. Practice Practice Practice
2. Keep it Simple Stupid

KISS principle is great. But it is actually the 6 "P's"

Proper Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance:D

[doggiebag]

KISS principle is great. But it is actually the 6 "P's"

Proper Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance:D
Travel light ... freeze at night :D.

[JAK]

KISS principle is great. But it is actually the 6 "P's"

Proper Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance:DI like it. :D

[Wise Old Owl]

Oh Boy!!!! you sadi it. Gotta love those mornings when it is so far below zero that the gas in your W-lite doesn't throw fumes and takes a few seconds of warming up before the gasoline lights.
... Trees exploding at 2AM.
... Getting up to pee at 11PM, 2:15 AM, 5AM and then finally at 6:30 AM.

I love these subzero trips!!!!!!


I dont understand the reference Trees exploding ??? Wind?

Oh I don't get up anymore to pee... in cold weather. That what the yellow Nagalene is for.

[overmywaders]

Wise,

You've never heard the trees "exploding"? I like that term, much more expressive and accurate than "cracking". When it is so cold that you can hear your spit crackle before it hits the ground, the trees (pines, spruce, fir) will give loud pops at night.

In Manitoba we might have weeks of 40 below and the wind whipping across the prairie. (40 below zero = -40 Celcius) But it was always sunny. Then, if the wind died and the temp was 20 below, everyone ran around like it was spring. (Could probably still frost your lungs, but it felt sooooo warm.)

Wet cold in NB woods like JAK is describing is far harder, IMHO, than the prairies. Wool is wisdom. Wood equals warmth. Back in the 70's I built a log cabin for myself (12'X12' - vertical logs) on some land I had in the Maritimes. I lived in a tent as I built. I moved into the cabin in Dec and heated and cooked over a $26 sheet-metal airtight stove, burning spruce I would cut each day (choosing the trees by noting spruce budworm damage). Wood and wool - can't beat it.

Here is a picture of my cabin, just for chuckles:

http://overmywaders.com/cblog/uploads/cabin3.jpg

[doggiebag]

Wise,

You've never heard the trees "exploding"? I like that term, much more expressive and accurate than "cracking". When it is so cold that you can hear your spit crackle before it hits the ground, the trees (pines, spruce, fir) will give loud pops at night.

In Manitoba we might have weeks of 40 below and the wind whipping across the prairie. (40 below zero = -40 Celcius) But it was always sunny. Then, if the wind died and the temp was 20 below, everyone ran around like it was spring. (Could probably still frost your lungs, but it felt sooooo warm.)

Wet cold in NB woods like JAK is describing is far harder, IMHO, than the prairies. Wool is wisdom. Wood equals warmth. Back in the 70's I built a log cabin for myself (12'X12' - vertical logs) on some land I had in the Maritimes. I lived in a tent as I built. I moved into the cabin in Dec and heated and cooked over a $26 sheet-metal airtight stove, burning spruce I would cut each day (choosing the trees by noting spruce budworm damage). Wood and wool - can't beat it.

Here is a picture of my cabin, just for chuckles:

http://overmywaders.com/cblog/uploads/cabin3.jpg
That is wonderful! Did you do the subsistence hunting thing?

[overmywaders]

doggiebag,

Subsistence hunting in most of the spruce woods of the Maritimes would be very difficult. You cannot legally sell the game, so you couldn't replenish your supply of ammunition. Even if you were only snaring, you still couldn't sell your surplus to buy tea, oatmeal, etc. Running a trapline (I had a small one as a kid) is verrrrry labor-intensive and while you can sell the fur in order to buy "the necessaries", forcing your way through the snow every day for miles to check your traps burns up a lot of calories. And not checking your traps daily is, IMHO, cruel in the extreme.

I was a working stiff. One day each week I snowshoed out to the nearest road, carefully hid my snowshoes so nothing ate them, and waited for a friend who worked in town to drive by. I worked the day, cashed my takehome of $26, spent a few hours chatting with friends in a coffee shop (ten cent coffee), did my shopping, and then hitched back home. Twenty-six dollars paid for my week's chainsaw needs, tea, plenty of oatmeal and sugar, and cans of Dinty Moore Beef Stew (with pre-formed beef chunks). Oh, and I got kerosene for the Alladin. I read Herbert, Marvel, Donne, and generally relaxed. rough life :)

[doggiebag]

OMW

Thanks for the clarification. It has always interested me in hearing about the experiences of others who have lived "off the grid" for any period of time. It is very refreshing to hear about first hand accounts of folks that have found a way in doing so - regardless of the lenght of time spent off the grid. As time goes on - I'm hoping that the option of living closer to the wild would still be possible - even just for short stretches.

[overmywaders]

doggie,

Not to wax philosophical, but to be truly "independent" you must first realize your interconnectedness with all others. Service to others, even if it's only a smile or a compliment to the kid at the convenience store, liberates you.
Given the understanding that you are part of the family of man, you can go off the grid and leave nothing behind. OTOH, if you try to retreat from the world, you will bring the worst of it with you.

JMHO

[doggiebag]

OMW

So true in so many respects. I can recall my highest mileage hiking days are when I'm within 20 or 30 miles from towns. I do not discount the need for human connection - nor do I wish for complete isolation as a permanent solution to my need for temporary escape. Sometimes it's just nice to know that there are still places out there that I can retreat from the pressures of today's world for as long as my tabasco supplies hold out :D. PS - I know it takes less muscles to smile than to frown - and compliments on your little cabin. If you have any more pictures of your adventure during that period - you should post them.

DB

[shelterbuilder]

doggiebag,

Subsistence hunting in most of the spruce woods of the Maritimes would be very difficult. You cannot legally sell the game, so you couldn't replenish your supply of ammunition. Even if you were only snaring, you still couldn't sell your surplus to buy tea, oatmeal, etc. Running a trapline (I had a small one as a kid) is verrrrry labor-intensive and while you can sell the fur in order to buy "the necessaries", forcing your way through the snow every day for miles to check your traps burns up a lot of calories. And not checking your traps daily is, IMHO, cruel in the extreme.

I was a working stiff. One day each week I snowshoed out to the nearest road, carefully hid my snowshoes so nothing ate them, and waited for a friend who worked in town to drive by. I worked the day, cashed my takehome of $26, spent a few hours chatting with friends in a coffee shop (ten cent coffee), did my shopping, and then hitched back home. Twenty-six dollars paid for my week's chainsaw needs, tea, plenty of oatmeal and sugar, and cans of Dinty Moore Beef Stew (with pre-formed beef chunks). Oh, and I got kerosene for the Alladin. I read Herbert, Marvel, Donne, and generally relaxed. rough life :)

Our hiking club (BMECC) has a cabin near the AT in Pa. It's an old chestnut log structure from the 30's: wood stove, Aladdin lamps for light, jugs for water from the spring. Not remote, but secluded - sleeps four (or, when I'm there with my sled team, it sleeps fur!). We put a front porch on it a few years ago, using native oak for the timbers - hard work getting heavy timbers raised that high, even with ropes and come-alongs. I admire your work; I know what the job entails.

[Tipi Walter]

Wise,

You've never heard the trees "exploding"? I like that term, much more expressive and accurate than "cracking". When it is so cold that you can hear your spit crackle before it hits the ground, the trees (pines, spruce, fir) will give loud pops at night.

In Manitoba we might have weeks of 40 below and the wind whipping across the prairie. (40 below zero = -40 Celcius) But it was always sunny. Then, if the wind died and the temp was 20 below, everyone ran around like it was spring. (Could probably still frost your lungs, but it felt sooooo warm.)

Wet cold in NB woods like JAK is describing is far harder, IMHO, than the prairies. Wool is wisdom. Wood equals warmth. Back in the 70's I built a log cabin for myself (12'X12' - vertical logs) on some land I had in the Maritimes. I lived in a tent as I built. I moved into the cabin in Dec and heated and cooked over a $26 sheet-metal airtight stove, burning spruce I would cut each day (choosing the trees by noting spruce budworm damage). Wood and wool - can't beat it.

Here is a picture of my cabin, just for chuckles:

http://overmywaders.com/cblog/uploads/cabin3.jpg

Hey overmywaders! Loved your fotog and your experience seems to coincide with mine though I did it in the mountains of NC. My first tipi was a pitiful thing using just deadfall and had a dumpster-dived iron woodstove which had more stove cement patching it than iron(well, nearly). It was built in 1987.

In 1994 I upgraded the lodge and used cut poplar and locust poles, about 40 altogether, and added some new canvas and got a very nice woodstove for it. In total I spent about 21 years living off the grid and then tumbled headlong into the grinding gears of Syphilization but I'm doing all I can to extricate myself again. Pray for me.

[shelterbuilder]

Hey overmywaders! Loved your fotog and your experience seems to coincide with mine though I did it in the mountains of NC. My first tipi was a pitiful thing using just deadfall and had a dumpster-dived iron woodstove which had more stove cement patching it than iron(well, nearly). It was built in 1987.

In 1994 I upgraded the lodge and used cut poplar and locust poles, about 40 altogether, and added some new canvas and got a very nice woodstove for it. In total I spent about 21 years living off the grid and then tumbled headlong into the grinding gears of Syphilization but I'm doing all I can to extricate myself again. Pray for me.

Great photos, Tipi Walter! Was this partially earth-sheltered, or on a raised mound?

[Tipi Walter]

Great photos, Tipi Walter! Was this partially earth-sheltered, or on a raised mound?

Very good question. I built a chicken wire fence around the outside of the tipi circumference(tied in with locust 'fence' poles), about 4 feet high, and every fall when the leaves fell I had a muscle-straining workweek raking leaves onto a tarp and throwing them into the space between the lodge and the chicken wire.

When filled it really helped with the insulation and sound absorbtion, it was like being partially underground. The floor of the tipi was not dug out, just bare dirt with several layers of tarps and then some outdoor carpet by the doorway and the rest carpets, sheepskins, and old flannel sleeping bags. I used a Camp Rest mattress(many of them over the years), to sleep on and for light I started with a regular kerosene lantern and upgraded to a fine bright Aladdin lamp which I vented with a small 5 inch pipe running out by the stovepipe. Have to vent an Aladdin as the exhaust can be rough.

[doggiebag]

I found a good picture of Tipi ...
http://209.200.85.146/trailjournals/photos/6537/tj6537_022908_223825_297742.jpg

[shelterbuilder]

Very good question. I built a chicken wire fence around the outside of the tipi circumference(tied in with locust 'fence' poles), about 4 feet high, and every fall when the leaves fell I had a muscle-straining workweek raking leaves onto a tarp and throwing them into the space between the lodge and the chicken wire.

When filled it really helped with the insulation and sound absorbtion, it was like being partially underground. The floor of the tipi was not dug out, just bare dirt with several layers of tarps and then some outdoor carpet by the doorway and the rest carpets, sheepskins, and old flannel sleeping bags. I used a Camp Rest mattress(many of them over the years), to sleep on and for light I started with a regular kerosene lantern and upgraded to a fine bright Aladdin lamp which I vented with a small 5 inch pipe running out by the stovepipe. Have to vent an Aladdin as the exhaust can be rough.

Neat! Being a "shelter builder" by nature, I'm always interested in how other folks do it. A couple of years ago, I played with the basic structure that "Dick's Dome" was designed around. I didn't have much time or money, I went "dumpster diving" for a lot of the floor panels (OSB tailings from a mobile home manufacturer) and roof pieces, and used two layers of 6 mil plastic (clear inner layer with a black outer layer for solar absorbtion, separated by an air space)...made a barrel stove that really kicked a$$! It might not have been much to look at, but man, was it warm and airtight.

[Tipi Walter]

I found a good picture of Tipi ...
http://209.200.85.146/trailjournals/photos/6537/tj6537_022908_223825_297742.jpg

Wow! You outdid yourself doggiebag!

I always thought the simple lifestyle would put me on top of the heap and finally here's the proof. Except all those guys before me should look like lawyers with satchels or like over-dressed politicians. They are the real cave men. Dangit, you got me started on another rant . . .

[mkmangold]

Or is that 0 degree?
2 weeks ago in the southern Kettle Moraine of Wisconsin, it was 7 degrees F and ended up raining ice during the night. Here is a summary of our experience:
1. The Coleman Dual Fuel wouldn't even light
2. Jetboil was outstanding (boiled 2 cups of water in just over 3 minutes)
3. Alcohol stove (Vargo Triad) required warming of the alcohol first and took over 10 minutes to boil water. I regret not using the Esbit fuel pellet even as an experiment but man, it was COLD!
4. I forgot the battery for my Zzip stove
5. With a little help from the left-over Coleman fuel, the campfire was a smashing success
6. We ended up using gelled alcohol cans (like big Sterno cans) to melt snow. Worked well. Never reached boiling.

[shelterbuilder]

Or is that 0 degree?
2 weeks ago in the southern Kettle Moraine of Wisconsin, it was 7 degrees F and ended up raining ice during the night. Here is a summary of our experience:
1. The Coleman Dual Fuel wouldn't even light
2. Jetboil was outstanding (boiled 2 cups of water in just over 3 minutes)
3. Alcohol stove (Vargo Triad) required warming of the alcohol first and took over 10 minutes to boil water. I regret not using the Esbit fuel pellet even as an experiment but man, it was COLD!
4. I forgot the battery for my Zzip stove
5. With a little help from the left-over Coleman fuel, the campfire was a smashing success
6. We ended up using gelled alcohol cans (like big Sterno cans) to melt snow. Worked well. Never reached boiling.

In the winter ESPECIALLY, I agree with Greentick18d: "proper practice prevents piss poor performance".

With regard to melting snow (by any method): this often takes more fuel than most folks realize, simply because snow is mostly AIR surrounded by ice crystals, and the air that's trapped acts as insulation to slow down the warming process. Here's a tip: add enough water to the snow to fill up those air spaces, and you'll find that the melting process goes faster.

[mkmangold]

Actually, this overnighter was a boatload of experiments. First was our ability to survive 0 degree weather (51, 15, and 6 years old: we all made it!). Second, we experimented with food. Does anyone here know of the guy who advocates "fistful at a time" backpacking foods?" I had that as a Favorite until my computer crashed.
Third, was a crude attempt at stove performance. Since there were 3 of us, we tried at least 3 different stoves: Jetboil, Coleman Dual Fuel, and alcohol. I was game for trying out some of Zelph's inventions but our line of communication failed. In shame-faced misery, I have to admit that my ZZip stove experiment failed because I forgot to bring the battery...

[shelterbuilder]

Actually, this overnighter was a boatload of experiments. First was our ability to survive 0 degree weather (51, 15, and 6 years old: we all made it!). Second, we experimented with food. Does anyone here know of the guy who advocates "fistful at a time" backpacking foods?" I had that as a Favorite until my computer crashed.
Third, was a crude attempt at stove performance. Since there were 3 of us, we tried at least 3 different stoves: Jetboil, Coleman Dual Fuel, and alcohol. I was game for trying out some of Zelph's inventions but our line of communication failed. In shame-faced misery, I have to admit that my ZZip stove experiment failed because I forgot to bring the battery...

It sounds like you folks had the experiment set up pretty well! You learned some valuable stuff, and nobody got hurt!:D Remember when you use the ZZipStove, keep the battery IN YOUR PANTS POCKET during the day, and in your sleeping bag at night, and you'll get better performance out of it.

[zelph]

Actually, this overnighter was a boatload of experiments. First was our ability to survive 0 degree weather (51, 15, and 6 years old: we all made it!). Second, we experimented with food. Does anyone here know of the guy who advocates "fistful at a time" backpacking foods?" I had that as a Favorite until my computer crashed.
Third, was a crude attempt at stove performance. Since there were 3 of us, we tried at least 3 different stoves: Jetboil, Coleman Dual Fuel, and alcohol. I was game for trying out some of Zelph's inventions but our line of communication failed. In shame-faced misery, I have to admit that my ZZip stove experiment failed because I forgot to bring the battery...

We'll get together someday:). Email me with your address and I'll send you some stoves to include the Fancee Feest. aka Fancy Feast

[mkmangold]

Zelph: the Ring of Fire did great, bringing 2 cups of water to a "small bubble boil" in 8 1/2 minutes. Is that what you usually get? It is now headed to the Dominican Republic on a mission.
The Starlyte did not get 2 cups of water to a boil when I tried it using the Energy can I carry. Perhaps it is the tall size of the can. I love the design though and now when Ben (my 6 y/o) and I go out alone, we carry the Starlyte nestled inside the Fancee Feest.