View Full Version : Maps or No maps?
Chaco Taco
03-04-2008, 20:27
I have maps for the AT and was packing them up for my drops and wondered if I even need them if I am carrying the guide book? I usually just look at the books when i hike anyway and have the map for enjoyment i guess. Should i just leave em behind?
dixicritter
03-04-2008, 20:35
Take them. http://trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=216509
take-a-knee
03-05-2008, 00:52
I have maps for the AT and was packing them up for my drops and wondered if I even need them if I am carrying the guide book? I usually just look at the books when i hike anyway and have the map for enjoyment i guess. Should i just leave em behind?
I strongly urge you to review the ten essentials. SAR guys had a bit of input on that list. Like the Duke said, "Life is hard, it's a lot harder when you're stupid".
jersey joe
03-05-2008, 09:19
I took them because I enjoy looking at maps and studying my route. You don't NEED them though. Plenty of people have hiked without them.
dessertrat
03-05-2008, 10:12
Take the maps.
D'Artagnan
03-05-2008, 10:35
I enjoy the AT maps. I'd take them.
Jack Tarlin
03-05-2008, 11:00
The fact that plenty of folks have hiked without them is irrelevant.
Plenty of folks have done a lot of dumb things on the Trail.
Bring the maps. The extra weight is minimal; you'll use them every day of your trip, probably several times a day; and you'll absolutely be glad you have them if you run into some sort of problem.
Funny thing.......the folks that say one doesn't need them on the A.T. are the very same folks who sneak a peek at OTHER people's maps on every occasion they can find. Meaning they might not NEED them, but they sure find it convenient and useful to look at other people's maps.
Take them because I don't have any, I can read yours every night.
Lone Wolf
03-05-2008, 11:18
you're foolish
Chef2000
03-05-2008, 11:28
By the time I got to Front Royal I abandoned all use of maps. I used the data book and companion and made it to maine fine.
Lone Wolf
03-05-2008, 11:30
i have no car insurance anymore. i never get in wrecks so i don't need it.
Keep in mind that if you take maps you are locked into maildrops, which cramps your style and often corners you into making weird pacing decisions that you otherwise would not make.
Lone Wolf
03-05-2008, 11:37
Keep in mind that if you take maps you are locked into maildrops, which cramps your style and often corners you into making weird pacing decisions that you otherwise would not make.
BS :rolleyes:......
I started without maps and thought all I would need and use was the Data Book. I started to look at maps that others had and started to purchase them along the way.
As long as you have them definately bring them. I think having maps helps to make your hike more enjoyable.:sun
I think maps slow you down. You are going to have to walk the same way whether you look at a map first or not. So the time you spend getting your map out, reading it, planning for that big hill up ahead (that is there either way), folding it back up and putting it away, you could be hiking. The same people who say maps don't add significant weight to your pack are the same ones who recommend cutting your toothbrush in half to save weight. Seriously??? Half a toothbrush and a pack full of maps? Maps are for the old and the scared.
Ok, Lone Wolf, let'er rip!!!
P.S. - Mind if I look at your map for a minute?
P.S.S. - Why did some dill-weed paint all these white marks on these trees?
P.S.S.S. - Should I take depends undergarments with me? I'm not incontinent now, but by the time I finish this hike I might be (especially if I'm carrying a crap load of maps).
And now a word from our sponser...
[QUOTE=Mongbat;559212]I think maps slow you down. You are going to have to walk the same way whether you look at a map first or not. So the time you spend getting your map out, reading it, planning for that big hill up ahead (that is there either way), folding it back up and putting it away, you could be hiking. The same people who say maps don't add significant weight to your pack are the same ones who recommend cutting your toothbrush in half to save weight. Seriously??? Half a toothbrush and a pack full of maps? Maps are for the old and the scared.
If having a map slows you down that much, Wow. When do you even have time to "smell the roses" and enjoy your hike?:sun
[QUOTE=Mongbat;559212]I think maps slow you down. You are going to have to walk the same way whether you look at a map first or not. So the time you spend getting your map out, reading it, planning for that big hill up ahead (that is there either way), folding it back up and putting it away, you could be hiking. The same people who say maps don't add significant weight to your pack are the same ones who recommend cutting your toothbrush in half to save weight. Seriously??? Half a toothbrush and a pack full of maps? Maps are for the old and the scared.
WOW:eek: If looking at a map slows you down that much, when do you have time to "smell the roses"?:sun
take-a-knee
03-05-2008, 12:47
I think maps slow you down. You are going to have to walk the same way whether you look at a map first or not. So the time you spend getting your map out, reading it, planning for that big hill up ahead (that is there either way), folding it back up and putting it away, you could be hiking. The same people who say maps don't add significant weight to your pack are the same ones who recommend cutting your toothbrush in half to save weight. Seriously??? Half a toothbrush and a pack full of maps? Maps are for the old and the scared.
Ok, Lone Wolf, let'er rip!!!
P.S. - Mind if I look at your map for a minute?
P.S.S. - Why did some dill-weed paint all these white marks on these trees?
P.S.S.S. - Should I take depends undergarments with me? I'm not incontinent now, but by the time I finish this hike I might be (especially if I'm carrying a crap load of maps).
And now a word from our sponser...
You are an idiot.
BS :rolleyes:......
Why? You can't just say that without backing it up.
I'm loving this no-maps rebellion against the armies of rabid risk-aversion!
take-a-knee
03-05-2008, 13:05
Why? You can't just say that without backing it up.
I'm loving this no-maps rebellion against the armies of rabid risk-aversion!
You don't know what risk is clueless, I've dove off the ramp of a C-130 at night from 25,000 ft and dodged IED's in Iraq. I did those things 'cause they needed doing at the time. You don't need to save an ounce by not carrying a map, it's just plain stupid and so are you if you think so.
Johnny Thunder
03-05-2008, 14:01
I was raised on a houseboat in Spain. But, I guess that's not important right now.
spittinpigeon
03-05-2008, 14:10
The same people who say maps don't add significant weight to your pack are the same ones who recommend cutting your toothbrush in half to save weight. Seriously??? Half a toothbrush and a pack full of maps? Maps are for the old and the scared.
Ya, it's funny right? They're like... "I've never treated water, BUT I'LL NEVER GO WITHOUT A MAP"! Who's the 'fool'?
Trail Dancer
03-05-2008, 14:18
I did not use maps, but I don't really like maps. I did peek at someone elses map maybe 3 times on the trail when they asked me to look at something...they aren't really needed if you have a guidebook.
You don't know what risk is clueless, I've dove off the ramp of a C-130 at night from 25,000 ft and dodged IED's in Iraq. I did those things 'cause they needed doing at the time. You don't need to save an ounce by not carrying a map, it's just plain stupid and so are you if you think so.
Yes, exactly. I know nothing about risk. You do. All I've done is hike the AT. So, in other words, war is dangerous and the AT isn't. I agree. So why are you so emphatic about maps?
take-a-knee
03-05-2008, 15:26
Yes, exactly. I know nothing about risk. You do. All I've done is hike the AT. So, in other words, war is dangerous and the AT isn't. I agree. So why are you so emphatic about maps?
I am emphatic about hikers learning proper land navigation skills and carrying the necessary tools because that knowledge and those tools can potentially save lives. If you pack a parachute carefully you'll never need a reserve, I know several people with over a thousand freefalls who've never pulled a reserve ripcord. They wouldn't jump without one though(though many have, quite a few Rangers jumped into Grenada sans reserves).
Before someone posts again and says "I hiked the entire AT and never needed a map" reread this post and consider that you not only don't understand navigation, you don't have a fundamental grasp of logic either.
dessertrat
03-05-2008, 15:27
People don't want to carry a map because it's "too heavy", and they need to be able to carry their iPod.
take-a-knee
03-05-2008, 15:28
People don't want to carry a map because it's "too heavy", and they need to be able to carry their iPod.
That is funny because it is so true.
Lone Wolf
03-05-2008, 15:28
Yes, exactly. I know nothing about risk. You do. All I've done is hike the AT. So, in other words, war is dangerous and the AT isn't. I agree. So why are you so emphatic about maps?
do you have any kind of insurance and if so , why?
Blissful
03-05-2008, 15:31
Maps are for the old and the scared.
...
I'll be old and scared any day (and yeah I am getting a little old. Less scared after doing the AT though). Give me a map. (BTW did you hear about the NOBO who got lost coming off Blood Mtn in the fog the other day?)
To encourage hikers on this thread not to carry maps because you think it's dumb - like some of the impressionable teens who may be reading and who are planning hikes - is risking their lives in unpredictable situations. And there are plenty of places on the AT where there are no blazes. My son got lost several times last year since I had the map and he had the guidebook. One time he had to get a ride back to the trail, he was off it for five miles.
So if YOU don't want to carry one, fine. But leave your rebellion off the computer. WB is not the place for it.
Johnny Swank
03-05-2008, 15:52
Count me in for having the maps. It'll cost, what, the equivalent of $20/mo on a hike. That's one dinner and some beers in town.
climberdave
03-05-2008, 16:05
As a professional cartographer, aspiring through hiker (march 08) and general adventurer (back country skier/mountaineer in the PNW) I can weigh in on both sides of this discussion. First: I'm only taking my TH companion and cutting it up for my 4 mail drops along the trail. This decision is bolstered by the fact that I may feel obliged to pick up a map or two concerning the Northern sections of the trail in Harpers Ferry, but may not. Before everyone gets all excited, I'm originally from SW VA and have hiked the AT extensively in VA, NC, and shorter sections in PA so I have a fairly good idea of what the first half has in store for me. My decision is basically that the TH companion is a condensed verbal set of maps and both would be very redundant. Sure the 10 essentially don't specify a play by play book of your upcoming itinerary but I strongly feel that it is a very close second.
Second: No one is an idiot or any other adjective for having a different opinion; it's just that, an opinion. If you want to hike with maps that's great, I can even help you read them if you want, and I promise not to back seat navigate at the shelters.
Now if you want to talk about crazy -- this whole uberlight, featherweight, 10lb total pack weight thing is way crazy!! That's a joke (sort of)
d
envirodiver
03-05-2008, 16:12
i have no car insurance anymore. i never get in wrecks so i don't need it.
My Mom always told me to wear clean underwear in case I get in an accident and have to go to the Dr. I don't have accidents so I quit wearing clean underwear.
envirodiver
03-05-2008, 16:15
I was raised on a houseboat in Spain. But, I guess that's not important right now.
Sure it is important. How did that make you feel?
I am emphatic about hikers learning proper land navigation skills and carrying the necessary tools because that knowledge and those tools can potentially save lives. If you pack a parachute carefully you'll never need a reserve, I know several people with over a thousand freefalls who've never pulled a reserve ripcord. They wouldn't jump without one though(though many have, quite a few Rangers jumped into Grenada sans reserves).
Before someone posts again and says "I hiked the entire AT and never needed a map" reread this post and consider that you not only don't understand navigation, you don't have a fundamental grasp of logic either.
Stop being so self-righteous. All the military analogies are completely irrelevant. If your primary parachute doesn't open and you do not have a reserve, then you die. If you don't carry maps on the AT...then nothing happens. It's a fooking wildernes interstate, man. You can usually see three or four blazes, in each direction, from any given point.
Also, if you "lose" the trail, then yes, you need to carry maps, because you would have to be incredibly unaware of your surroundings to do that. I mean sure, I can understand walking the wrong way for like five or ten minutes, but how could a thru-hiker not instantly notice that there are no blazes? There's been a constant parade of them past your eyes for how many thousands of miles, exactly?
You make yourself look desperate by saying things like "you don't have a fundamental grasp of logic." That's just stupid.
HikerRanky
03-05-2008, 21:31
Stop being so self-righteous. All the military analogies are completely irrelevant. If your primary parachute doesn't open and you do not have a reserve, then you die. If you don't carry maps on the AT...then nothing happens. It's a fooking wildernes interstate, man. You can usually see three or four blazes, in each direction, from any given point.
Also, if you "lose" the trail, then yes, you need to carry maps, because you would have to be incredibly unaware of your surroundings to do that. I mean sure, I can understand walking the wrong way for like five or ten minutes, but how could a thru-hiker not instantly notice that there are no blazes? There's been a constant parade of them past your eyes for how many thousands of miles, exactly?
You make yourself look desperate by saying things like "you don't have a fundamental grasp of logic." That's just stupid.
And how do you know that when someone gets lost on the trail, and they don't have a map & compass, that nothing happens to them? Have you been there for each and every case?
And you are making a very big assumption that the people using the trail are thru-hikers.... I dare say that more people like these people here (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=217645) are using the trail.... Of course, we don't know if they are carrying maps or not since they didn't post a gear list...
And as for your interstate analogy, well, sometimes you have to be rerouted around construction.... by having a map, you can determine multiple routes around the construction....
I'm a highly trained mapreader/navigator. Prefer hiking without them on the AT.
More adventure, less stuff.
Aside from safety matters, it's my observation that folks that lack the curiosity about the trail, find the trail boring and eventually quit. Maps are useful for many things besides rescuing one when lost.
Maps identify surrounding hills, roads, streams and similar stuff.
Weary
More adventure, less stuff.
If you are truly adventurous, why stick to the AT? Use the maps to make your own Appalachian Adventure and take blue-blazes that look interesting. Link up your own trails, follow some quiet country roads, etc. Do the Appalachian Corridor that more and more people are advocating.
Before I thru-hiked the AT, my buddy and I would grab the White Mountain maps and plot out weekend jaunts. Which trail looks interesting, what trail will lead to a new view point I have not seen. Etc.
Little did I know two years later, this non-linear thinking is discouraged in AT circles.
When I did the CDT, I felt like I came back to my roots.
When (not IF!) I do the AT again, it will be an Appalachian Adventure that takes the land around, but not necessarily always on, the AT (the BMT comes to mind for example).
I don't see how blindly following white blazes = more adventure.
It is a wonderful journey to follow the AT. But I would say just following the white blazes without any knowledge of what is around you (or, GASP, not taking alternate routes) is more like a marked trail race minus the aid stations.
I've done trail races. They can be fun.
But, I'd rather make my own route though and also know what is around me to appreciate the land more.
Then again, I am not an athlete, I'm an outdoors person. ;)
envirodiver
03-06-2008, 11:35
I LIKE hiking with maps. In addition to being able to determine where the trail is, I enjoy sitting down and seeing what happens down the trail, where the road crossings are and distances. Just something that I like.
Regarding need, people get lost and have to be rescued every year in GSMNP. How that happens, I have no idea, but it does. Those trails are truly like a highway. Then again those folks getting lost in the GSMNP probably don't know how to read a map. If you don't take the time to learn to read them, why bother to carry a map. Then it becomes fire starter or emergency TP.
Lone Wolf
03-06-2008, 11:37
do you have any kind of insurance and if so , why?
well?....clured
jersey joe
03-06-2008, 11:59
I would not compare carrying maps to car insurance. Not carrying maps has impact on you and rarely on others. Not having car insurance usually has a negative impact on others.
max patch
03-06-2008, 12:05
I would not compare carrying maps to car insurance. Not carrying maps has impact on you and rarely on others. Not having car insurance usually has a negative impact on others.
Do you buckle your seatbelt?
Time To Fly 97
03-06-2008, 12:08
I always hike with a map, and usually even have one for day hikes. I like to know when that big hill is coming (or that I'm actually at the summit), not miss an opportunity to find a great overlook to camp at, and even have the knowledge to hide my pack and top-pack-it down some side trail towards a road in hopes of finding a snack. To me, this is about not missing things and adding to the adventure.
The safety side of carrying maps shouldn't be overlooked either. I've walked off the AT before in heavy fog and was glad I had a map to figure that out. If you get hurt and need to bail out, that map is priceless information. Maps are very important for planning water sources too. Staying hydrated is one of the most important rules.
To the folks that don't carry maps: that's cool for you if that is your style...but promoting not carrying maps is just completely bad advice.
Happy hiking!
Time To Fly 97
take-a-knee
03-06-2008, 12:47
Stop being so self-righteous. All the military analogies are completely irrelevant. If your primary parachute doesn't open and you do not have a reserve, then you die. If you don't carry maps on the AT...then nothing happens. It's a fooking wildernes interstate, man. You can usually see three or four blazes, in each direction, from any given point.
Also, if you "lose" the trail, then yes, you need to carry maps, because you would have to be incredibly unaware of your surroundings to do that. I mean sure, I can understand walking the wrong way for like five or ten minutes, but how could a thru-hiker not instantly notice that there are no blazes? There's been a constant parade of them past your eyes for how many thousands of miles, exactly?
You make yourself look desperate by saying things like "you don't have a fundamental grasp of logic." That's just stupid.
If your understanding of human physiology, climate, and terrain is so limited that you can't envision getting turned around on the AT (or any trail) and becoming disoriented then you truly are totally out of your element in discussing this matter, let alone offering advice on same. Have you ever been on a trail when a thick fog rolled in, ever been sick, injured, out of food? You have obviously led a very sheltered life.
Why do you think navigation skills and tools are at the top of the Ten Essentials? Do you think maybe all those corpses S&R crews have packed out over the years have something to do with that?
I'll be old and scared any day (and yeah I am getting a little old. Less scared after doing the AT though). Give me a map. (BTW did you hear about the NOBO who got lost coming off Blood Mtn in the fog the other day?)
To encourage hikers on this thread not to carry maps because you think it's dumb - like some of the impressionable teens who may be reading and who are planning hikes - is risking their lives in unpredictable situations. And there are plenty of places on the AT where there are no blazes. My son got lost several times last year since I had the map and he had the guidebook. One time he had to get a ride back to the trail, he was off it for five miles.
So if YOU don't want to carry one, fine. But leave your rebellion off the computer. WB is not the place for it.
Blissful, Since you have stated that I could be responsible for the actions of teenage hikers I've never met, may I point out that as mother of the year, you took your son hiking then kept the maps for yourself and let him wonder off on his own. If you feel that maps are so important, why didn't you let your son have any? And knowing that you had the maps, why did you leave your son to get lost in the wilderness and potentially lose his life? Wow, my bad advise could lead to the death of teenage hikers you say. Well how about your bad parenting? Aren't you a wee bit more responsible for the wellbeing of your own child than I am for the actions of someone else's children?
By the way, in support of my point, your son was able to get a ride back to the trail in just 5 miles. Doesn't exactly sound like a life threatening situation to me. You'd think that if was was afraid for his life he might request to be dropped off somewhere other then back on the trail with no maps.
One more point...I never said, nor do I believe, that carrying maps is dumb. And I never originated a thread on this subject. I have responded to questions in this and other threads regarding the usefullness of maps on the AT. In my opinion, you don't need them. Other people feel that you do. If only one opinion should be posted here than what is the point in the discussion? Perhaps there are some nice trails in Communist China you would prefer to hike.
The Old Fhart
03-06-2008, 13:47
Mongbat post #15 "...Maps are for the old and the scared...."
Mongbat post #45 "One more point...I never said, nor do I believe, that carrying maps is dumb."...so you differentiate between dumb vs. the old and scared? Nice two-step.:rolleyes:
If your understanding of human physiology, climate, and terrain is so limited that you can't envision getting turned around on the AT (or any trail) and becoming disoriented then you truly are totally out of your element in discussing this matter, let alone offering advice on same. Have you ever been on a trail when a thick fog rolled in, ever been sick, injured, out of food? You have obviously led a very sheltered life.
Why do you think navigation skills and tools are at the top of the Ten Essentials? Do you think maybe all those corpses S&R crews have packed out over the years have something to do with that?
Well, take-a-knee, you're talking a pretty big game here. What do you mean if my understanding is so limited? I hate to bring it up, but based on your info it seems like you have not hiked the AT. I did it last summer. So why are you lecturing me about how ignorant I am? Looks like you're in over your head. Thick fog? Oh yes. Sick? Lyme Disease. Injured? Never so bad that I couldn't walk (in which case maps would be useless), but yes. Out of food? More than once. You don't have the foggiest F what you're talking about, and you know nothing about my experiences.
Maps are essential on just about every trail other than the AT. But not on the AT.
LW: The insurance question isn't a good analogy. If I have insurance, then I know, for a fact, that I will be compensated if something happens. But my argument is that maps just don't really come in handy for a solo hiker in a really tight situation. If you can't walk, then navigation is a moot point.
But more important is that I just don't buy into the tacit assumption that hiking on the AT is dangerous. I think people like to think it is because it makes them feel like rugged, bada$$ mountaineers, which they aren't.
I'm young(ish), scared(ish), and wimpy(ish)....
I do cook a great 5 course meal if I do say-so-myself, though
Not sure what it has to do with maps, but I thought it would a nice fact to add.
(Skiing this weekend; taking a map and compass.I'll cook two big meals at the hut. See, it is now related! :banana)
Alligator
03-06-2008, 14:35
If you can walk and still need medical attention then maps can provide a much shorter route. Same thing when you are out of food.
I think people like to think it is because it makes them feel like rugged, bada$$ mountaineers, which they aren't.
Hey..I readily admit to being a wimp. With a map, I walked around a flooded area rather than swam it.
See, I admit my wimp-a-tude.
I also do not believe in following white blazes blindly and like to form my own journey. So, not only am I am wimp, but I am also a scofflaw who likes to plot out their own journey.
If only I was a bit less of a wimp AND was content to walk a narrow 3 foot corridor only. :banana
ps. Isn't life good?
pps. Does anyone take this crap seriously?
ppps. I just felt like adding more crap...
Yes, life is good, no, no one takes this seriously. If you're a blue-blazer, more power to you and take the maps. I just don't like it when haven't-hiked's condescend to tell past hikers how little they know about the AT.
Alligator
03-06-2008, 14:49
It's much worse when those who have hiked give bad advice.
Who said anything about blueblazing?
Jes' saying there seems to be a chorus of people who say "I AM ADVENTUROUS! I DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' MAPS"...then they proceed to follow the most well marked and traveled trail in the world. :-?
If you (meaning in general, not you specifically. Don't get your clues in a bunch...) are the adventurous type then follow your own path.
Otherwise quit the "I'm a burly adventurer" crap and just admit "I just follow white blazes only. A well marked trail for me".
Admit you are as wimpy as I am! :D
Finally, to anyone: Should I have swam the one-true trail or walked around it?
Time To Fly 97
03-06-2008, 14:53
Swam it you wimp lol
Happy hiking!
TTF
jersey joe
03-06-2008, 14:54
Do you buckle your seatbelt?
Yes I do buckle my seat belt.
I also carry maps.
I suggest others to do the same.
However, I do not think others NEED buckle their seatbelt.
Alligator
03-06-2008, 14:54
...Finally, to anyone: Should I have swam the one-true trail or walked around it?You only mentioned it was deep for you;)...
Haha Mags, read my posts! "I think people like to think it is because it makes them feel like rugged, bada$$ mountaineers, which they aren't." People talk about how "dangerous" the trail is because they want to feel sweet. I'm saying that the trail is not dangerous, and that none of us are half as sweet as we would like to think.
You only mentioned it was deep for you;)...
True, I am only 5'6". And yes, I should have swam the trail. Damn it..there goes my AT hiker dude credentials. Sigh.....
CLURED: Do you change a light bulb by standing still? ( the world revolves around you? ;).
I said some people who disdain maps claim how adventurous they are. Not you specifically.
You admit you are not adventurous and I applaud you!
(BTW, I'm of Italian ancestry. I am not sweet. Probably a bit garlicy tasting would be my guess)
But my argument is that maps just don't really come in handy for a solo hiker in a really tight situation. If you can't walk, then navigation is a moot point.
But more important is that I just don't buy into the tacit assumption that hiking on the AT is dangerous. I think people like to think it is because it makes them feel like rugged, bada$$ mountaineers, which they aren't.With even a few minutes of pondering I can come up with numerous emergency situations a solo hiker on the AT could find themselves in where a map would be extremely useful. To me that is way more important than some macho self image.
Mr. Parkay
03-06-2008, 15:13
Clearly, maps are an optional item for an AT thru-hiker. A hiker who decides to go without the maps is not blind to his surroundings, as long as he has one of the guides. The guide books are essentially condensed versions of a map, they contain about 99% of the information that a thru-hiker needs on a regular basis. Combine this with the fact that the trail is blazed and relatively easy to follow and you can see that opting out is a viable alternative.
I'm not advocating that people hike the AT without maps, in fact, some people are prone to getting lost, so they should probably carry maps at all times. Also, there is still that 1% of the time when having the maps would come in handy... due to unforeseeable circumstances. But in general, the AT is a unique wilderness situation where maps are not the most important item in your pack.
Alligator
03-06-2008, 15:14
You're way bigger than that Mags, it's what's on the inside that counts:).
I would have likely went around it.
jersey joe
03-06-2008, 16:19
Clearly, maps are an optional item for an AT thru-hiker. A hiker who decides to go without the maps is not blind to his surroundings, as long as he has one of the guides. The guide books are essentially condensed versions of a map, they contain about 99% of the information that a thru-hiker needs on a regular basis. Combine this with the fact that the trail is blazed and relatively easy to follow and you can see that opting out is a viable alternative.
I'm not advocating that people hike the AT without maps, in fact, some people are prone to getting lost, so they should probably carry maps at all times. Also, there is still that 1% of the time when having the maps would come in handy... due to unforeseeable circumstances. But in general, the AT is a unique wilderness situation where maps are not the most important item in your pack.
Well said Parkay.
Time To Fly 97
03-06-2008, 16:40
You're way bigger than that Mags, it's what's on the inside that counts:).
Bigger than me too. Only one hiking crown on my head. : )
Happy hiking!
TTF
Alligator
03-06-2008, 17:01
Clearly, maps are an optional item for an AT thru-hiker. ...
I'm not advocating that people hike the AT without maps,...You say maps are optional but don't advocate that people hike the AT without maps:confused:.
Mr. Parkay
03-06-2008, 17:06
You say maps are optional but don't advocate that people hike the AT without maps:confused:.
I meant to say I'm not advocating for everyone to hike without maps. It depends on the person, but either way is fine.
Alligator
03-06-2008, 17:26
I meant to say I'm not advocating for everyone to hike without maps. It depends on the person, but either way is fine.OK.
Now that's cleared up I disagree with your assessment of the corridor surroundings. If a person needed to exit due to an emergency, the guides are not going to describe the best route out. There's little topographic information available. That's a huge loss of data. Off the AT, the guides are not going to tell you which way is uphill or downhill. The guides may not list a small community at the base of a ridge, at least the one's without a deli. Guidebooks provide more of the mundane details, but in an emergency maps are key.
John Boy
03-06-2008, 17:36
Maps may add weight, however I enjoy them. Further; they may come in handy to find side trails in an emergency.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am always amazed by how confusing the terrain can be in mountains. If I'm not paying close attention, I can get really turned around real quick. That's because I have a map in my head, which may not correspond to what the ground really is. So I get to trucking, and in a moment, I have turned a few corners, and I am wondering why the creeks are going uphill. The odd thing is that I can perfectly convince myself that it is the creek going the wrong way, rather than that I have bamboozled myself again. A glance at a map clears that all up in no time, so I do value maps to help me in my confused state.
I am also aware of the problem of hiking the map rather than the country. I am not immune to the urge to get to the destination, rather than do what is sensible. I have passed up perfectly good campsites just to get a few more miles in, and hiked into storms (and mud and slips and all that joy) when I would have been better off in my tent. Like Einstein said, too soon old and too late smart.
Paul Bunyan
03-06-2008, 18:14
Blissful, Since you have stated that I could be responsible for the actions of teenage hikers I've never met, may I point out that as mother of the year, you took your son hiking then kept the maps for yourself and let him wonder off on his own. If you feel that maps are so important, why didn't you let your son have any? And knowing that you had the maps, why did you leave your son to get lost in the wilderness and potentially lose his life? Wow, my bad advise could lead to the death of teenage hikers you say. Well how about your bad parenting? Aren't you a wee bit more responsible for the wellbeing of your own child than I am for the actions of someone else's children?
By the way, in support of my point, your son was able to get a ride back to the trail in just 5 miles. Doesn't exactly sound like a life threatening situation to me. You'd think that if was was afraid for his life he might request to be dropped off somewhere other then back on the trail with no maps.
One more point...I never said, nor do I believe, that carrying maps is dumb. And I never originated a thread on this subject. I have responded to questions in this and other threads regarding the usefullness of maps on the AT. In my opinion, you don't need them. Other people feel that you do. If only one opinion should be posted here than what is the point in the discussion? Perhaps there are some nice trails in Communist China you would prefer to hike.
Excuse me sir, let me tell you something. My mother is the one you are calling a bad parent, and let me tell you this right now, if it wasn't for her, i would have sat on my ass for 6 months, probably weighing almost 250 pounds, and playing video games. Instead, her bad parenting made her take me out into the wilderness, to experience life in a way most 16 year olds never get to experience. Because of her bad parenting, i was able to stand on top of Mount Katahdin, after completing over 2000 miles. If that is bad parenting, than this world is going down the drains.
Oh, and about sending me off without maps, THAT WAS MY OWN CHOICE. Yes, i could have stayed, and probably should have satyed, with my parents. But no, I decided to go off on my own, I decided to take the risk. The only one who wuld have been at faut would have been ME.
Oh, and for getting lost for five miles, that also was MY fault. If i had kept up with my mother of the year, i wouldn't have made the poor decisions i had of walking down the road.
Oh, and that comment about Communist China was completely uncalled for. How much hiking have you done?
Sorry to the other whiteblazers, i just needed to get that out.
envirodiver
03-06-2008, 18:46
Way to step up and get your Mom's back Paul Bunyan. I'm sure that it means a lot to her.
Cherokee Bill
03-06-2008, 18:55
The fact that plenty of folks have hiked without them is irrelevant.
Plenty of folks have done a lot of dumb things on the Trail.
Bring the maps. The extra weight is minimal; you'll use them every day of your trip, probably several times a day; and you'll absolutely be glad you have them if you run into some sort of problem.
Funny thing.......the folks that say one doesn't need them on the A.T. are the very same folks who sneak a peek at OTHER people's maps on every occasion they can find. Meaning they might not NEED them, but they sure find it convenient and useful to look at other people's maps.
Having been blessed by being able to take many Mtn Search & Rescue Classes, I learned one important rule "Prepare for the worst, pray for the best"!
Take the MAPS. You never know when an emergency will pop-up, and you'll need the maps to know where you are and the quickest way to get help!
THE MAPS MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE OR SOMEONE ELSES ;)
leeki pole
03-06-2008, 18:56
Haha Mags, read my posts! "I think people like to think it is because it makes them feel like rugged, bada$$ mountaineers, which they aren't." People talk about how "dangerous" the trail is because they want to feel sweet. I'm saying that the trail is not dangerous, and that none of us are half as sweet as we would like to think.
Okay clu-red, I'm just a dumb redneck. But say I come across a fellow hiker who has taken a nasty spill and can't walk. Or had a heart attack. I'm looking for the closest access for help, since there's no cell phone service. Do you just leave him there since your guidebook says the next shelter and road crossing is 6 miles away, or do you look at your map and find a side trail to get him the attention that he needs asap? Your call, buddy.
Excuse me sir, let me tell you something. My mother is the one you are calling a bad parent, and let me tell you this right now, if it wasn't for her, i would have sat on my ass for 6 months, probably weighing almost 250 pounds, and playing video games. Instead, her bad parenting made her take me out into the wilderness, to experience life in a way most 16 year olds never get to experience. Because of her bad parenting, i was able to stand on top of Mount Katahdin, after completing over 2000 miles. If that is bad parenting, than this world is going down the drains.
Oh, and about sending me off without maps, THAT WAS MY OWN CHOICE. Yes, i could have stayed, and probably should have satyed, with my parents. But no, I decided to go off on my own, I decided to take the risk. The only one who wuld have been at faut would have been ME.
Oh, and for getting lost for five miles, that also was MY fault. If i had kept up with my mother of the year, i wouldn't have made the poor decisions i had of walking down the road.
Oh, and that comment about Communist China was completely uncalled for. How much hiking have you done?
Sorry to the other whiteblazers, i just needed to get that out.
Chill Mr. Bunyan. If you read what your mother said to me you would probably understand my point a bit more clearly. She said that my advice could lead to the deaths of teenage hikers. As you just pointed out, my advice could do no such thing. You were responsible for your actions as are all human beings. So you, young sir, are in agreement with me, not your mother.
As for the Communist China comment, it was on point. This thread is titled "maps or no maps". I'm pretty sure that is a request for peoples' opinions on the usefullness of maps when hiking the AT. I offered my opinion, which if not absolutely clear is that maps are not for me. Your mother's response was to tell me that my opinions are not welcomed here on Whiteblaze. She even went so far as to call my opinion a "rebellion." Are you kidding me? There are only two sides to this arguement: maps or no maps. Apparently your mom feels that everyone should agree with her and others are not allowed to speak. Does this sound like the policy of a free society? And what gives your mom the right to speak for everyone on this site? You might notice that a lot of people agree that maps are not needed on the
AT. Others feel that they are. If everyone was in agreement there would be no point in this thread. For a 17 year old, your response was actually quite articulate. I think you know that your mom was wrong in saying that my opinion should not be heard. I think it is obvious that her statements were hypocritical in light of your experience.
By the way, I think your mom is a wonderful person for taking you on the trail. Even better for not making you use maps and letting you go off on your own. You probably learned more from a few small mistakes than you ever would have if she had kept you under her wing.
Congratulations on your thru-hike!!! Very few people your age could have done it. You have a right to be proud of your accomplishment. It was also good of you to defend your mother (even if she was wrong). Before you get mad at me again, I mean wrong in telling me that my opinion shouldn't be expressed in a forum asking for one of two opinions. As far as the "mom of the year" title, I was just making a point, for all I know, she could very well be.
Well, I guess that's all I have to say about that. If anyone is still reading this, you really need to turn your computer off and get some fresh air. I know i do.
Peace
...so you differentiate between dumb vs. the old and scared? Nice two-step.:rolleyes:
Ummmmm?
I most certainly do differentiate between dumb vs. old and scared. Doesn't everyone?
Dumb = doesn't have much knowledge
Old = was born a long time ago
Scared = fears for one's well being
Now lets try to equate them:
1) doesn't have much knowledge = was born a long time ago
(dumb) (old)
Nope that didn't work. In fact you could reasonably presume that someone born a long time ago might have quite a bit of knowledge.
2) doesn't have much knowledge = fears for one's well being
(dumb) (scared)
Nope that didn't work either. Some people are just too dumb to be scared (perhaps I fit into this category???).
Well Old Fhart, I tried and I just can't draw any other conclusion. Dumb in no way means old or scared. Therefore, it is quite easy to differentiate between them. I have drawn one conclusion, however. You seem to be quite stupid for someone your age. Stupid = Dumb. There, we found one that works quite nicely.
If your understanding of human physiology, climate, and terrain is so limited that you can't envision getting turned around on the AT (or any trail) and becoming disoriented then you truly are totally out of your element in discussing this matter, let alone offering advice on same. Have you ever been on a trail when a thick fog rolled in, ever been sick, injured, out of food? You have obviously led a very sheltered life.
Why do you think navigation skills and tools are at the top of the Ten Essentials? Do you think maybe all those corpses S&R crews have packed out over the years have something to do with that?
Take-a-knee - I am also prior military (Airborne) and know what you are talking about. There is an always-ready mentality that we must have to survive out there. You have to remember that most people have never and will never need to think like that. Nothing compares. I too have yet to thru-hike, and navigation is something I'm doing alot of research on, mainly b/c I have limited time to work w/ and mess-ups can mean much needed days... but I doubt they would cost me my life on the AT. However, put yourself in their shoes - everyone has a different way of viewing life. I have friends that have hitch-hiked the entire country w/ no map. Chances are, they'll be fine... if not, chalk it up to Darwinism. ;)
Lone Wolf
03-06-2008, 21:34
hiking without maps is foolish and irresponsible
Okay clu-red, I'm just a dumb redneck. But say I come across a fellow hiker who has taken a nasty spill and can't walk. Or had a heart attack. I'm looking for the closest access for help, since there's no cell phone service. Do you just leave him there since your guidebook says the next shelter and road crossing is 6 miles away, or do you look at your map and find a side trail to get him the attention that he needs asap? Your call, buddy.
Then how dare you venture into the woods without a sattelite phone? That would get the chopper out there quickly. Why not carry a defibrulator, or a full EMS kit with splints and plaster?
Also, I think that these oft-cited "side trails" and "nearby roads" aren't quite as ubiquitous as people would make you think. You act like at every point on the AT there is a road 1000m from the trail, carefully concealed by brush, that the data book says nothing about, and that there's always a perfectly positioned "side trail" that leads to a major highway. That's not the case. I don't know - this is totaly conjecture - but I'd guess that 90% of the time, in the situation you describe, the final choice after consulting the map would be to proceed forwards or backwards along the AT to the last opt-out point. Sure, once in a while there might be a quicker alternative on the map, but I think that in the vast majority of cases the quickest, most reliable, more sure-fire course of action is to stick to what you know. Most of the little side trails or forest service roads lead exactly nowhere; just because they are there doesn't mean that they actually take you anywhere useful.
I know, I know, there's always that story about the life saved by the map that showed the massive road a stone's throw from the trail, or whatever. But hey, you'd be a whole heck of a lot safer if you just stayed on the couch. Carrying maps is an actively cautious action (nothing wrong there). But not carrying maps is not an actively reckless action.
The Old Fhart
03-06-2008, 22:31
Mongbat-"Nope that didn't work either. Some people are just too dumb to be scared (perhaps I fit into this category???)."You've finally said something everyone agrees with.:D
Hiking without maps in many places is foolish and irresponsible. Just not on the AT. MY 6, 8, and 10 year olds routinely lead the way on day hikes they've never done before on the AT. We don't get lost. We don't have maps. We like it better that way. It is more fun to us.
We hope you have fun too, with or without maps.
fiddlehead
03-06-2008, 23:01
Is it being implied here that Communist China doesn't have good hiking?
Christmas Day 1991 found me in Tibet walking up Mt Everest for about 4-5 miles. (yes, you can set foot and walk up the beginning of Mt. Everest on the Tibetan side, unlike the ice fall which keeps most off the Nepal side)
Have you hiked in China? Tibet? Pretty spectacular stuff!
Believe I'd want a map for Tibet. Hung How ji le ma.
minnesotasmith
03-06-2008, 23:07
Bring the f'ing things when you so much as overnight on a trail. They're as important to bring as raingear on a cloudy day, and not as bulky or heavy.
Oh, and just BC you're related to someone, they don't get a pass on their decisions, becoming immune to being told on this site they screwed up. If you go on a hiking trip with someone, and you don't both have maps, IMO you either stick to each other like glue, or set yourself up for legitimate criticism if you get separated and have a problem.
fiddlehead
03-06-2008, 23:22
Believe I'd want a map for Tibet. Hung How ji le ma.
Maps are not easy to find (or accurate) in Tibet (maybe now that google earth is here, you could print them though)
I believe we had the Lonely Planet book which was probably about the best you could get. But we hired a driver from Lhasa to the Nepal border and he knew the way. Took our time, spent about 6 days for the trip including the side trip to Everest on Christmas.
Fiddleburn, do you speak Tibetan? I used to know some but have forgotten most all of it except perhaps "Om mani padme hum" and "tsampa" and "kali"
I don't use Lonely Planet books anymore as i don't always want to go where all the other westerners go. It's not easy to find the true culture that way. Not unlike the AT with every guidebook telling people the same places to eat, sleep, etc. I've found that if we just go and ask questions (i have pretty good sign language skills now) you meet the real people and have some encounters that you never would by staying on the (so-called) trail. whether it be the AT, or the silk road. Just my way of travelling. People like to knock it but it's ok with me. Is it foolish or irresponsible? to some perhaps!
Not Tibetan, that's Mandarin Chinese, of which I learned the basics while in Special Forces in the 70's. Haven't used it since but I'd love to see that part of the world. Talk about a real adventure.
fiddlehead
03-06-2008, 23:37
PM me if you want to go, i know some ways around the visa and permission for entering Tibet.
I've got to go for my morning jog but will check back in a few hours.
Thanks for the kind offer Fiddlehead. Wishful thinking for now I'm afraid. Other commitments. Maybe someday.
"The woods are lovely, dark, and deep, etc."