View Full Version : External Frame Pack
Cherokee Bill
03-07-2008, 14:31
:mad:At 60yo, I finally gave away my exterior-frame pack of 20-years (Camp Trails, Mt. McKinly, I think), and replaced it with an interior frame pack (Deuter). After a year I still can not get use to the thing :confused: May sell it and go back to a interior frame again!
Do any of you folks still prefer/use an internal-frame pack? If you use/prefer them what do you recommend? New ones are hard to find! :-?
:mad:At 60yo, I finally gave away my exterior-frame pack of 20-years (Camp Trails, Mt. McKinly, I think), and replaced it with an interior frame pack (Deuter). After a year I still can not get use to the thing :confused: May sell it and go back to a interior frame again!
Do any of you folks still prefer/use an internal-frame pack? If you use/prefer them what do you recommend? New ones are hard to find! :-?Cerberus45acp had a Granite Gear and ditched it to thru with an external frame pack of some sort. Nto sue what type he's using, but he says it works for him.
Go back to your Exterior frame pack Campmor has some so will REI I think they are better for AT use anyway just my 2cent worth.
CrumbSnatcher
03-07-2008, 14:48
external pack is the way to go,they ride better(higher) all the pockets for gear,instead of top loading everything,or pulling everything out to get something in the bottom of the pack(whats that all about) the external stays two inches off your back so you dont sweat into the pack! getting into and out of camp is alot faster with the external packs. i realize the internals are alot more popular(because most hikers like the book bag size packs),but the external is perfect for the A.T.
CrumbSnatcher
03-07-2008, 14:49
Go back to your Exterior frame pack Campmor has some so will REI I think they are better for AT use anyway just my 2cent worth.
your two cents are right on track!
warraghiyagey
03-07-2008, 14:50
I only use external frame, for all the reasons listed above. It is funny on the trail the xframes are so uncommon as to be a curiosity.
CrumbSnatcher
03-07-2008, 14:53
I only use external frame, for all the reasons listed above. It is funny on the trail the xframes are so uncommon as to be a curiosity.not only are externals better,usually half the price!
I switch back and forth between my old Jansport D-3 (external) and my Kelty Shadow (internal). I've tried several internal frame packs, and the Kelty is the most comfortable for me. It's still not as comfortable as the Jansport. I think the internal frame packs are O.K. if you can keep the total weight down around 25 lbs. If the weight gets above that level, the externals are more comfortable. I usually use the Jansport in the winter and switch to the Kelty in the summer when it's easier to keep weight low.
Externals are still out there at Campmor, REI, and a couple of other places. I know that Kelty still makes them, and I think Jansport does also. I'd say you should go find one.
If you look in the latest Backpacking Magazine gear guide, I don't think the Kelty external frame pack is listed this year.
Externals are getting harder and harder to find.
Toolshed
03-07-2008, 19:33
External Frame Camp Trails Moose bag and Frame $85 Brand new Here!!! (http://www.eurekacampingctr.com/eureka/product.asp?s_id=0&prod_name=MOOSE+BAG+III&pf_id=PAAAIAOFABNGKODD&dept_id=3032)
Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-07-2008, 19:41
He-Dino uses a Kelty Trekker 3950 (http://www.kelty.com/kelty/products.php?terms=trekker&id=193) for all the reasons listed.
Lost My Mind
03-07-2008, 19:55
Cerberus45acp had a Granite Gear and ditched it to thru with an external frame pack of some sort. Nto sue what type he's using, but he says it works for him.
Cerberus uses a Kelty, also.
When I recently bought my pack, REI was no longer carrying externals in the store - only online.
Skidsteer
03-07-2008, 20:18
Bass Pro Shops carry Kelty externals for reasonable prices.
Cherokee Bill
03-07-2008, 20:38
:danceYou guys are the GREATEST, thanks for all the info! Now all I have to do is sell my new Deuter Air Lite 65-10:rolleyes:
I still have the frame from my youth model pack from boyscouts. One of these days I am going to learn to sew and make a new bag for it.
Programbo
03-07-2008, 21:08
:mad:At 60yo, I finally gave away my exterior-frame pack of 20-years (Camp Trails, Mt. McKinly, I think), and replaced it with an interior frame pack (Deuter). After a year I still can not get use to the thing :confused: May sell it and go back to a interior frame again!Do any of you folks still prefer/use an internal-frame pack? If you use/prefer them what do you recommend? New ones are hard to find! :-?
Your post seems to get mis-worded a bit and I think you mean external frame in the last 2 references...GOOD External frame packs are superior to Internals for open trail hiking (Like the AT)..Unfortunately as you mention finding them is getting harder and harder as most manufacturers aren`t going to throw away money and fight the current ultra-light/internal fad...Ignore everything you`ll hear and read and go with what you KNOW works for you..Don`t fall for the hype..I was heavily involved in the backpacking business during all the years this transition took place and I watched it unfold and spoke to many of the biggest manufacturers face to face and know what was and is behind it and I can assure you it`s NOT because lighter weight internals are better than the old externals for open trail hiking...Just make sure you deal with a good quality external...The ideal would be a standard external frame and bag but with an internal type of suspension attached which many manufacturers were starting to experiment with at one time
I used external frame packs for most of my hiking career (mid-1970s until 2007.) I had tried several internal-frame packs without success. Last summer I finally found an internal-frame pack that agreed with me: a Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone. I typically had it loaded with about 22-28 lbs. Very comfy!
Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-07-2008, 22:37
Bass Pro Shops carry Kelty externals for reasonable prices.Campmor has them even cheaper. (https://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=9121)
Campmor Has a External frame by Outdoor Products call the Saturn it fit torso from 18-21" 4820 cu in on sale now for 59.97. The frame is call Enduroflex
the link for them is campmor.com
shelterbuilder
03-07-2008, 23:05
I used external frame packs for most of my hiking career (mid-1970s until 2007.) I had tried several internal-frame packs without success. Last summer I finally found an internal-frame pack that agreed with me: a Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone. I typically had it loaded with about 22-28 lbs. Very comfy!
I just have to wonder how many people find that their favorite internal is "comfy" because they can't load it with all of the stuff that you can fit into an external frame! I know that, for years, I made the mistake of thinking that I actually HAD to fill all of the space in my external! (God, when I think of some of the loads I've carried over the years....) Now, I'm not afraid to have pockets only half-full - and it's lots more comfortable than it used to be!!!:D
Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-07-2008, 23:15
Campmor Has a External frame by Outdoor Products call the Saturn it fit torso from 18-21" 4820 cu in on sale now for 59.97. The frame is call Enduroflex
the link for them is campmor.comSaturn (https://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=14753288) and a 3750 ci version - the Firefly- that fits torsos 15-22" (https://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39205173)
I just have to wonder how many people find that their favorite internal is "comfy" because they can't load it with all of the stuff that you can fit into an external frame!
Point taken. Speaking for myself, the move from a Camp Trails external frame to the GG Nimbus Ozone was part of an overall "re-tooling" in order to lighten up. Bottom line, the base weight went down by about seven or eight pounds, from around 24 to around 17. It made a big difference. The pack itself accounts for 1.25 lbs. of that.
Programbo
03-08-2008, 09:16
Campmor Has a External frame by Outdoor Products call the Saturn it fit torso from 18-21" 4820 cu in on sale now for 59.97. The frame is call Enduroflex
Hey that`s the old Peak 1 frame!...They must have bought the rights to it.. It was a miserable failure when Peak 1 had them way back when so I can see why this packs on sale for such a low price...I am sure the original poster could find another CampTrails McKinley on Ebay if he liked it
NICKTHEGREEK
03-08-2008, 09:47
:mad:At 60yo, I finally gave away my exterior-frame pack of 20-years (Camp Trails, Mt. McKinly, I think), and replaced it with an interior frame pack (Deuter). After a year I still can not get use to the thing :confused: May sell it and go back to a interior frame again!
Do any of you folks still prefer/use an internal-frame pack? If you use/prefer them what do you recommend? New ones are hard to find! :-?
Tough dialing 3 and # from your rotary phone---;). I still go back and forth between an internal (Deuter also) and a kelty external. I still see Kelty Super tiogas here and there so you can find them. The old reasons still apply to use them:
Upright posture with an external.
Generally better ventilation
Carry heavier loads
Maybe better organization with more pockets etc
Tweeking your external setup gives you something to do at night, hipbelt placement, shoulder strap angle and width, etc.
(If your deuter has the vario harness, you can play with it too.)
I doubt that a 20 yr old camptrails would outperform a new generation pack regardless, so maybe you should try having that Deuter refitted before you go shopping for another external.
Cerberus uses a Kelty, also.
When I recently bought my pack, REI was no longer carrying externals in the store - only online.
Cerberus has a kelty Trekker. I have one also. FANTASTIC Pack. I love mine. You can pick one up for about 100 dollars. Bass Pro has them last time I looked. (last year). Can't go wrong with a Kelty.
I have (& enjoy!) an Outdoor Products external (Mantis).
The Saturn mentioned above is the largest capacity of the packs-- they also have a 'Mantis', 'Firefly' & another (slips my mind). One 'youth' model, two adult, and the Saturn which is the 'extended trip' pack. The Saturn pack is built on a larger frame than the other 3. The capacity of all of these other models would be enough for ~45-50 lbs (I think the Saturn is a bit large myself), but YMMV. All of the packs weigh between 4 & 5 pounds with the frame weighing 2.5.
Capacities and models are all on the outdoor products website; www.outdoorproducts.com.
The frame indeed is like the old Peak 1 plastic or composite frame. It rides well, and has some flex to it. I wouldn't worry about breakage with the frame. Sizing adjustments are simple and fast-- the frame can accommodate a wide variety of sizes (I adjusted my pack to fit a friend, 10" height difference, in about 3 minutes). Like I mentioned above about the Saturn's frame-- I think it is probably a bit of overkill unless regularly carrying 50 lbs+.
The bags are well made. The hip belt/shoulder straps are nicely padded. There is an internal 2L water bladder pocket which fits their water bladder (sold separately) perfectly. My biggest (maybe only) gripe thus far is that the fastex buckles seem to be a little on the cheap side-- wouldn't want to accidentally step on one.
The price point I have seen ranges from $40-$70-- I know Campmor has all of the models except for the Mantis. Dick's carries the Mantis style.
Having taken it on 6-8 trips loaded at ~25-30 lbs, it performs great. After having owned a few 'nice' internals I found that none matched the enjoyment that I had with my old external and I am very glad that I went back.
sheepdog
03-08-2008, 12:33
Coleman has a pretty decent external under their exponent line.
<snip>Just make sure you deal with a good quality external
The LuxuryLite.com Modular .... none better!
The ideal would be a standard external frame and bag but with an internal type of suspension attached which many manufacturers were starting to experiment with at one time
I would guess that they quit experimenting when they realized that they were inventing a solution to a non existing problem.
IOW, a properly designed external frame pack does *not* require an internal frame like suspension.
HTH & Peace,
Richard.
Am going with a Jansport "Carson" (4900 ci) external frame pack for my AT thru-hike in May, bought from Campmor for $75 + shipping. I felt that the ventilation, size, multiple pockets, and price worked for me.
Am going with a Jansport "Carson" (4900 ci) external frame pack for my AT thru-hike in May, bought from Campmor for $75 + shipping. I felt that the ventilation, size, multiple pockets, and price worked for me.
Montego, the following info is meant to help not hurt you. Please don't be offended.
I fear that you purchased the Carson based on price. Period! If so .... it's your money. And perhaps $79.95 plus HIS is all you can afford? If so .... again .... it's your money. But I have learned the hard way that purchasing the wrong item simply because it's affordable is false economy.
At 4lbs 13oz claimed weight and 4900ci the pack you've chosen is a poor choice for a thru hike. Assuming you intend to finish.
It's too heavy and too large in capacity.
You'll end up like so very many hikers who end up replacing gear at Neel's, or some other outfitter elsewhere. Usually at much greater cost than they would've paid if purchased beforehand.
Or if you can't afford the price of replacing (what i'll guess is most of your gear) it you'll end up miserable, perhaps even injured. Either way you'll go home.
BTW, I usually don't bother handing out advice on the Net. Specially when you've presented us with a "fait accompli." And you're leaving in two months. But considering the disasters in the making I see during thru hiker seasons .... I decided to once again try to help someone enjoy and succeed.
HTH,
Richard.
I used external frame packs for most of my hiking career (mid-1970s until 2007.) I had tried several internal-frame packs without success. Last summer I finally found an internal-frame pack that agreed with me: a Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone. I typically had it loaded with about 22-28 lbs. Very comfy!
Same here, I hiked with my 6 pound external for 20 years, and loved it.
Last year at the Gathering I bought a Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone, 3 pounds (plus another 8 ounces for all the extra pockets and lid)
Its still a weight savings of 2.5 pounds. I've used it several times on the trail and now love this pack.
As I get older I need to find more ways to save weight and this pack is lighter.
Panzer
shelterbuilder
03-08-2008, 20:04
Am going with a Jansport "Carson" (4900 ci) external frame pack for my AT thru-hike in May, bought from Campmor for $75 + shipping. I felt that the ventilation, size, multiple pockets, and price worked for me.
I saw that one in the catalog last night when I was browsing. That is an excellent price for an external. Campmor frequently has really good special purchase prices on some of its big-ticket items. Just don't be tempted (like I would be) to fill up the darn thing to capacity, or you may be sorry!!! (Of course, on the up-side, if you don't mind hauling 2 weeks' worth of food, a pack that size could give you a long time in the woods between re-supply points!)
Whiskyjo
03-08-2008, 20:18
My Gregory Evolution external pack has held up for fifteen years now under heavy winter loads and I still love it. My wifes is the same but smaller and no mice holes in hers but since they discontiued them I went to Ebay and bought another one just like it so when I do get to thru hike the AT I will still have the one I like. So you might check Ebay for one.
CrumbSnatcher
03-08-2008, 20:28
Am going with a Jansport "Carson" (4900 ci) external frame pack for my AT thru-hike in May, bought from Campmor for $75 + shipping. I felt that the ventilation, size, multiple pockets, and price worked for me.nothing wrong with your choice, i have many miles on kelty super tioga which is basically the same as yours but yours is lighter. 4900cu.in. is good! you dont have to fill the pockets all the way. this is a 134.00 pack on sale for 70.00 dont let people tell you you made a bad choice as i see some are doing. externals are a great choice for the A.T.
the pockets,ventilation,no sweating into the bag(as bad) in an out of camp faster.the weight rides higher so you feel lighter than you probably are. and you can put the money to other parts of the hike. hike your own hike,your hike will not fail because of equipment choices! its more about determination,heart,desire. yeah your going to have crappy days,but youll have ten great ones for every bad one. just take it day by day,good hiking...
Last year at the Gathering I bought a Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone...
We weren't introduced, but I might have passed by while you were trying it on... In any case, somebody was there, trying one on, and I said in a voice, hoping to be overheard, "Nice pack..." ;)
Montego, the following info is meant to help not hurt you. Please don't be offended.
I fear that you purchased the Carson based on price. Period! If so .... it's your money. And perhaps $79.95 plus HIS is all you can afford? If so .... again .... it's your money. But I have learned the hard way that purchasing the wrong item simply because it's affordable is false economy.
At 4lbs 13oz claimed weight and 4900ci the pack you've chosen is a poor choice for a thru hike. Assuming you intend to finish.
It's too heavy and too large in capacity.
You'll end up like so very many hikers who end up replacing gear at Neel's, or some other outfitter elsewhere. Usually at much greater cost than they would've paid if purchased beforehand.
Or if you can't afford the price of replacing (what i'll guess is most of your gear) it you'll end up miserable, perhaps even injured. Either way you'll go home.
BTW, I usually don't bother handing out advice on the Net. Specially when you've presented us with a "fait accompli." And you're leaving in two months. But considering the disasters in the making I see during thru hiker seasons .... I decided to once again try to help someone enjoy and succeed.
HTH,
Richard.
Thank you for your post, and no, I'm not the least bit offended.
You are correct in stating that money did play a large role in my pack choice, though not the only reason. Another reason that I chose an external frame pack was because with many years and perhaps 100's of miles on different trails, I am most familiar with the external frames (actually replacing an old Camp Trails one I've used since the early '70's) and with the few choices of external frame packs available now days, the "Carson" seemed (for it's size) the one with the least weight and the most features.
In my defence, my pack trail weight should be somewhere between 40# to 45# (I hope) with 5 days of food and two litres of water. I do have enough prior experience to NOT load-up, just to fill the pack to its' full capacity.
Additional Items:
Jansport external frame pack - 77 oz
Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight Tent - 71 oz
Campmor 20* down sleeping bag - 36 oz
Thermarest Z-lite sleeping pad - 15 oz
Total 'BIG FOUR' 199 oz = 12 lb 7 oz
As you can see, I am a long way from being an UL, however, with no obligations nor time frame, my hike will be more about seeing what I can see rather than the 'destination' or mileage per day. HYOH.
Again, thank you for your observations.
nothing wrong with your choice,
The gent is thru hiking .... if he wants to finish it is a "bad choice."
i have many miles on kelty super tioga which is basically the same as yours but yours is lighter.
And I am quite sure that many have thru hiked w/77oz backpacks. Or even heavier.
The fact that some have been successful does not negate the fact that most will fail. And/or be injured.
Let's face it .... thru hiking (ie; very long distances) is unlike any other kind of hiking. It takes a serious commitment in time and money. And no one *wants* to fail!
Plus we want to have at least a decent time of it. Perhaps not a good time. But not misery for 3-6 months.
On first reading it appears you are supporting Montego .... I say you are doing just the opposite.
4900cu.in. is good!
It wouldn't be "good" even for a winter thru hike. I fear that you're trolling .... or want to see folks fail.
Because you imply that you are very experienced and still insist on encouraging folly.
you dont have to fill the pockets all the way.
***?
1) I quote you again: "4900ci is good." Then why on earth shouldn't he fill the pockets? Which is what you imply by direct inference!
2) The bleeding thing weighs a claimed 77oz. Ridiculously heavy.
this is a 134.00 pack on sale for 70.00
And i'll sell you a $100.00 framing hammer for $20.00 tomorrow. But it won't do you much good if you need a finish hammer, will it? It's an Estwing .... such a deal I make you. Phooey!
dont let people tell you you made a bad choice as i see some are doing.
Oh please!!! I am saying it's a poor choice. And so would anyone w/o ulterior motives .... unless he's ignorant of thru hiking.
externals are a great choice for the A.T.
Agreed!
the pockets,
And you imply that you're very experienced? The pockets are unnecessary and overly heavy to boot.
ventilation, no sweating into the bag(as bad)
A pack external or otherwise need not weigh 77oz to provide ventilation.
in an out of camp faster.
Faster than what? He'll be spending a lot of time in camp due to a starting weight of 45 to 50lbs plus food and water.
the weight rides higher so you feel lighter than you probably are.
Wrong again on two counts.
1) Properly worn packs, external or otherwise carry loads best when the load is centered around one's hips. IOW .... lower not higher. In addition; how a pack carries a load has nothing to do w/external or internal choice. But all to with proper pack design and proper fitment.
2) Assuming that one's wearing a proper pack, a 50lb load (for example) feels just like a .............
50lb load. Doesn't matter if it's an external or internal frame.
Furthermore, you sir show you're ignorance. Over and over again.
I certainly hope that Montego is astute enuff to realize that even if you do indeed have his best interests at heart .... he'd best ignore your advice.
and you can put the money to other parts of the hike.
Yes, on the replacing all of his gear .... parts of the hike.
On the buying lots of Vitamin I and other medical necessities.
And finally on a long bus ride home in despair; when due to injury, or lack of time (e.g. too slow), and/or he's jist plain misrable .... he ups an quits!
Those must be the parts you're referring to.
hike your own hike,
Effing A Bubba!
your hike will not fail because of equipment choices!
More ignorance. Enuff said.
its more about determination,heart,desire.
You and Wild Cowboy should get together. You sound so much alike.
yeah your going to have crappy days,but youll have ten great ones for every bad one.
100% Pure USDA Choice Unadulterated Bovine Excrement!
Every day carrying 50lbs is a crappy day. Even the days when one's lucky to make 6-8 miles.
Let's see at 8 miles per day it should take Montego only 9 months to finish. Way to go Crumbsnatcher .... you're really doing him such a favor.
BTW. all thru hikes consist of mostly ?crappy" days. With very few truly good days.
Heck a good day is when an Angel (ie. TA) offers up a "crappy" snickers bar.
But don't take my word for it Crumbsnatcher .... just read the hundreds of trail journals.
Thrus know that it's a test of endurance, etc.
Thrus know it's a "crappy" deal.
And that's what makes it sooo special. It's Effing Hard!!!
But no one but a loser (or a squeaky, and co.) wants to make it harder than it has to be.
just take it day by day,good hiking...
Notice that I didn't have to add "god hiking" to my post to Montego?
Because it's clearly implied within the body of my post.
OTOH, I honestly wonder if you're one of the many i've known over the years who goes out of his way to give bad advice hoping to see folks fail.
I've seen lots of bad advice on the Net over the many yrs. i've been on line .... but yours is classic!
I'm done w/u Crumbsnatcher.
Peace,
Richard.
<snip>He'll be spending a lot of time in camp due to a starting weight of 45 to 50lbs plus food and water.<snip>.
Sorry, should read 55-60lbs including food and water.
Peace,
Richard.
Thank you for your post, and no, I'm not the least bit offended.
Cool!
You are correct in stating that money did play a large role in my pack choice, though not the only reason.
There are other externals one could have chosen. But they'd probably all be more (even much more) expensive. If not, just as "crappy."
Another reason that I chose an external frame pack was because with many years and perhaps 100's of miles on different trails, I am most familiar with the external frames (actually replacing an old Camp Trails one I've used since the early '70's)
Ditto. I love externals best of all.
I remind you that you want to thru hike <jesting tone>!
I assume (wrongly?) you *want* to have a good time and succeed as well!
Don't set yourself up for failure!
Or even worse: Set yourself up for misery and/or injury just to prove that you can make it while carrying too much weight.
Please leave that sort of thing to the youngsters. You and I need all the help we can get. <chuckle>
Truly heartfelt: If you can't afford to buy the best gear for your needs .... wait until next year.
If "next year" never comes .... don't believe the extremists .... you won't regret it on your deathbed. Thru hiking's just another very cool thing to do of many. ;-)
and with the few choices of external frame packs available now days, the "Carson" seemed (for it's size) the one with the least weight and the most features.
Features are *usually* detrimental to an item's utility. It's a negative quality in most instances.
As for it's size .... it's too freakin biiig!
In my defence, my pack trail weight should be somewhere between 40# to 45# (I hope) with 5 days of food and two litres of water.
First: There's nothing to defend because I am not attacking you. Are we cool on that? :-)
You're guessing? Ok. <shrug> Not uncommon.
No worries; i'll tell you what you can expect given the little you've told me; added to a whole lot of experience and *Mega* research. Plus I don't listen too closely to the Crumbsnatcher's of this world. So, here goes and I truly HTH:
At over 45lbs you'll be carrying expedition weight loads. So you'll need expedition weight boots. Add another 4lbs or so to your total weight. And that's what I refer to as unsprung weight. Hurts more. ;-) So you'll need some more expedition strength Ibuprofen.
Now we'll add another 11oz for two one liter Lexan Nalgenes .... simply because IME folks who carry expedition loads for thru hikes always choose heavy water carriers. So, that's another +81oz.
Next we add heavy clothing. And again I add that inexperienced thrus always carry too much clothing weight. Although not necessarily too much clothing.
Note: Often lack of adequate funding is *wholly* responsible for heavier loads .... along w/many other heavier choices. Leading to the number one *root* cause of failed thru hikes!
I do have enough prior experience to NOT load-up, just to fill the pack to its' full capacity.
Then why do you mention that one criterion was *indeed* the high capacity?
Do you plan to add another thru hiker's stuff to your pack when his is too heavy for him? <tic>
If your answer is that you need a do it all pack for after your hike and can't afford two packs .... well, I feel for ya bro but anyone can afford to fail. Trust me, you can wait until you can afford to succeed.
As for experience in general: Why does your prior experience mean that you know what's best for a thru hike? Rhetorical Q Montego. The answer is obvious .... you would not have made such a poor choice if you truly were experienced.
Now why is it that when hiking and money come up .... as they must .... no one wants to admit that they lack either or both?
Yes, I know you admitted to the money thing. Barely! But you still claim that you know what you're doing after so many years and so many miles.
So, Montego what am I missing here? <chuckle>
Additional Items:
Jansport external frame pack - 77 oz
There are other external frame packs that are lighter.
And some externals that are lighter and hold much more than 4900ci. But that one's expensive initially. But economical in the long term. YMMV of course. <pun intended>
BTW, did you notice that the pack is for 18-21in torsos? You must be a big guy because i'm six-one and I usually wear a 17-18in pack depending on design.
Be assured torso size maters. Even with external frame packs.
Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight Tent - 71 oz
Too heavy but a great overall tent at a reasonable price. For a novice hiker, i'd say coool! But for anyone with even a modicum of experience i'd suggest a tarptent-like shelter.
But they're usually much more expensive. <shrug>
Campmor 20* down sleeping bag - 36 oz
Too heavy. But you already knew i'd say that. ;-)
What you might not have realized is that down *anything* is not for thru hike novices if rain is assured.
Thermarest Z-lite sleeping pad - 15 oz
Too heavy! And down is not recommended for thru hike novices if rain is assured.
Total 'BIG FOUR' 199 oz = 12 lb 7 oz
<chuckle> That's actually the Big Three. The Big Four include the other essential: Cooking/food.
Not to sound pedantic but here goes for the novices:
We need food (includes cooking system and water), clothing and shelter and something to carry it in/on.
We usually break it down as follows:
Pack (although it should come last it's always mentioned first). And that should tell you something right there.
Rule Of Thumb; over 2lbs and/or over 3000ci and it's *probably* a poor choice.
Cooking, Food & Fuel. Represented by a cooking system. But actual food weight should not exceed 2lbs per day. 1.5lbs is doable.
Rule Of Thumb: A complete cook system should not exceed 11oz including fuel carried (if any). If you're like most who carry a huge pack .... your stove system alone weighs more than that.
Water ROT: Water carrier weight's should not exceed 1oz per liter of water carried.
Shelter/Sleep system. Always stated separately. But i'll show why it's good to conjoin.
A one person shelter should not exceed 24oz. But now we'll be more exposed to the elements and therefore will have to take great care in our sleep system selections. And our clothing selections. Down is out unless one is able and experienced enuff to take care of it properly.
So, our choice of a LTW shelter (*not* UL, a UL shelter would weigh app 8oz) directly affects our other choices.
Beginning to see a pattern here .... I hope?
First we see a lack of experience leading to thinking that a low budget is OK. Leading to heavy weight choices. Which lead to the need for even heavier choices. For example the heavy boots I mentioned above.
Now, I bet that your cook system is heavy. And that your clothing is heavy. And so on. And on and on.
Normally I don't subscribe to the usual Lemming mentality. ie, simply follow the herd. But often enough the majority make choices because it's what works.
The *vast* majority of *successful* thrus choose the lightest weight options they can possibly afford. Even taking risks that I wouldn't recommend to any but the most knowledgeable.
The majority agree that what works on a thru is the lightest options affordable added to *knowledge!*
Bravado is a recipe for failure. Nuff said here.
As you can see, I am a long way from being an UL,
I'm not an "UL" either. When i'm carrying expedition weights. <chuckle> Or when i'm on a dayhike.
Mostly i'm an LTW hiker. By virtue of choosing the right equipment (at times SUL) for the task and then adding a bit more weight in luxuries.
But I can afford to buy what I feel is best .... or I wait until I can.
BTW; I hike for fun and profit. Mostly fun. :-) Unnecessarily brutal loads are *not* fun. Heck, they weren't fun when I was eighteen.
FYIs:
1) My usual 3 season LTW weight w/food, fuel and water for five days.... (w/two quarts) .... is always less than 25lbs using one of my external frame packs. That includes luxuries such as a thermarest, camp chair, lots of heavy food goodies, and a very heavy cooking system.
2) So, my UL load isn't UL either. It's SUL .... at well under 14lbs for five days including food and two quarts of water. No luxuries. And knowing I will be miserable.
In fact i never carry an UL load.
Because it's only a half measure. IOW, one suffers almost as much as w/a SUL load but has none of the luxuries of an LTW load.
Note that my SUL load is probably less that what your Big Four will weigh (estimated). And that my LTW load is less than half what we can expect your starting load to be.
Let's say that I choose door number one whenever possible. <chuckle> Ergo: I can enjoy the hiking and enjoy the camping also.
Best of both worlds!
Also; it takes money and experience to go SUL. But it doesn't take much cash to do an LTW thru. Just lotsa experience. <sigh>
As for an LTW thru w/adequate funds .... not that much cash or experience required. Just research, practice (both free) and a bit of time to prepare (not usually too expensive either).
however, with no obligations nor time frame, my hike will be more about seeing what I can see rather than the 'destination' or mileage per day.
Hmmm, the above implies that you don't mind failing to finish. If so then I stand corrected in all but two observations:
1) You still unnecessarily risk injury.
2) You will not have as good a time as you could have had.
IMHO, if you don't care if you finish then you are not thru hiking.
WTS; I hate to burst your bubble but what you'll see as a HW hiker is lotsa dirt and trees. You'll either be too beat to truly explore (and/or enjoy) you surroundings or you just won't get far enough to see all that you could have seen.
Even at 15 miles per day w/a May 1st start you'd be well into October by the end.
Don't take my word for anything. Read the journals. Ask past thru who want you to succeed.
In the end .... it's true only you can ***HYOH. Which means that you'll do as you please no matter what I say. <shrug> That's cool.
HYOH.
***I truly dislike that expression. It implies that a difference of opinion means one is judging another. I am not judging you. Your human worth is not in question!
I want you to have a great time! I want you to succeed! Nuff said.
[QUOTE=Montego;562404]Again, thank you for your observations.
Well, as usual I fear that i've wasted my breath. But knowing that I tried and might have made a difference for the better .... Hmmm?
Peace,
Richard.
How to win friends and influence people??? :D
Programbo
03-09-2008, 10:15
At 4lbs 13oz claimed weight and 4900ci the pack you've chosen is a poor choice for a thru hike. Assuming you intend to finish.......It's too heavy and too large in capacity.You'll end up like so very many hikers who end up replacing gear at Neel's.... .
I`ll have to disagree with all of this..For decades all any thru-hiker ever used was externals of this size and weight and it was the ideal choice for the hike and met with great success...And we all just blew past Neel`s Gap as it was just another road crossing......My best advice would be to buy a slightly used external off of Ebay at the price he wants to pay rather than buy a lower quality new pack
My Gregory Evolution external pack has held up for fifteen years now under heavy winter loads and I still love it. My wifes is the same but smaller and no mice holes in hers but since they discontiued them I went to Ebay and bought another one just like it so when I do get to thru hike the AT I will still have the one I like. So you might check Ebay for one.
I love mine too.
Would'nt want anything else, for backpacking.
CrumbSnatcher
03-09-2008, 10:36
First off rallen, stuff it, sit down before you hurt yourself. this website is for all to share advice, ignorant or not, if he wanted your advise exclusively he would have private messaged you, no charge for that one. Good thing me and montego are here so you can display your all-knowing power. Suppose everyone should check with you first before buying gear.
Now, saying that I would intentionally mislead someone to hurt themselves, that pisses me off, you POS. Hope to meet you in person some day and we'll see if you mutter the word "ignorant" then. Its hard to concieve that you want people to have fun or finish, or are you saving your manners for the privileged?
How many thru's have you done, have you ever tried an external, if not then shut up
I know a dozen hikers with 10,000 miles each who use externals, and they don't mind an extra 3 pounds, but if you cant hack it, thats on you. It's a proven fact you can get out of camp easier, and organized, unless you like taking breaks to dump and dig for what you need.it's not about how much you spend on a pack, it's a personal preference. Just cuz your dog cost more than mine doesn 't mean mine wont eat yours.
I am an asset to the hiking community, I give back, my personal experiences show I know what I am talking about. I do trail maintanance, done hardcore multiple years, ALDHA and ATC life member, helped carry weight for those in need, my external allowed me to! and would give the shirt off my back. I am well known up and down the trail as a strong and smart hiker. The important people out there know and that all that matters.
how's that for mustering some self worth, my advice to you rallen, stay home in a safe place and give out biased advice and punk those you are threatened by, since you're through with me and all. And montego, good pack, i wish you the best!
Lone Wolf
03-09-2008, 10:39
this rallen is WAY off on his assesment of externals. :D
Lone Wolf
03-09-2008, 10:40
First off rallen, stuff it, sit down before you hurt yourself. this website is for all to share advice, ignorant or not, if he wanted your advise exclusively he would have private messaged you, no charge for that one. Good thing me and montego are here so you can display your all-knowing power. Suppose everyone should check with you first before buying gear.
Now, saying that I would intentionally mislead someone to hurt themselves, that pisses me off, you POS. Hope to meet you in person some day and we'll see if you mutter the word "ignorant" then. Its hard to concieve that you want people to have fun or finish, or are you saving your manners for the privileged?
How many thru's have you done, have you ever tried an external, if not then shut up
I know a dozen hikers with 10,000 miles each who use externals, and they don't mind an extra 3 pounds, but if you cant hack it, thats on you. It's a proven fact you can get out of camp easier, and organized, unless you like taking breaks to dump and dig for what you need.it's not about how much you spend on a pack, it's a personal preference. Just cuz your dog cost more than mine doesn 't mean mine wont eat yours.
I am an asset to the hiking community, I give back, my personal experiences show I know what I am talking about. I do trail maintanance, done hardcore multiple years, ALDHA and ATC life member, halped carry weight for those in need, my external allowed me to, and would give the shirt off my back. I am well known up and down the trail as a strong and smart hiker. The important people out there know and that all that matters.
how's that for mustering some self worth, my advice to you rallen, stay home in a safe place and give out biased advice and punk those you are threatened by, since you're through with me and all. And montego, good pack, i wish you the best!
yeah, what crumb says!
this rallen is WAY off on his assesment of externals. :D
Funny watching this spat. But then, yesterday's festivities started with Sly gave me **** for talking back to fiddlehead! Over the very serious subject of wallets, of all things. :D
Agree, for the record, that rallen is off-base. I generally advise folks to "go light" but I'm not entirely convinced that weight-on-back will make or break a thru hike. MS is living proof.
Lone Wolf
03-09-2008, 10:56
Funny watching this spat. But then, yesterday's festivities started with Sly gave me **** for talking back to fiddlehead! Over the very serious subject of wallets, of all things. :D
Agree, for the record, that rallen is off-base. I generally advise folks to "go light" but I'm not entirely convinced that weight-on-back will make or break a thru hike. MS is living proof.
i made it to gorham in 86 hauling a Kelty Super Tioga. got off there. musta been the damn frame pack. :cool:
scout005
03-09-2008, 11:05
I' ve got a cut down medium ALICE pack with a plastic frame that's about 3,000 cu.in. and weighs 3.5 pounds. That works fine for warmer weather when I'm not carrying bulky items. I bought an Outdoor Products Saturn external frame pack at Campmor for about $65 at Christmas. That's 4,900 cu.in. and weighs about 5 pounds. It will carry bulky stuff for winter hiking but the 5.5 pounds is too much. I'm trying to find a way to cut this pack down too.
My rule of thumb is to use an external frame pack for on trail hiking and an internal frame for off trail.
I used to own (and carry!) a wood frame with a tump line. You had to rig it up with a Duluth pack, IIRC. You could haul an outboard motor with that thing, or a camp kitchen, or just about any d**n thing you care to mention. It was an uncomfortable, even painful thing, but it did get the job done. Then for a while I had an army surplus metal rack with a load shelf and better harness, no tump. It was a bit better, not so heavy. Still no hip belt, though. I've never owned a modern external, but I bet they are more versatile than the internals I've owned. If you are going UL, there's just no point in one of those. All the structure you need can be had from a sleeping pad or a groundsheet. But if you're going to haul something, I would guess an external frame is the way to go, just like it always has been. Unless you want to drag a travois.
I'm not really that old. I probably always had out-of-date equipment. :D
Jim Adams
03-09-2008, 12:12
The gent is thru hiking .... if he wants to finish it is a "bad choice."
And I am quite sure that many have thru hiked w/77oz backpacks. Or even heavier.
The fact that some have been successful does not negate the fact that most will fail. And/or be injured.
Let's face it .... thru hiking (ie; very long distances) is unlike any other kind of hiking. It takes a serious commitment in time and money. And no one *wants* to fail!
Plus we want to have at least a decent time of it. Perhaps not a good time. But not misery for 3-6 months.
On first reading it appears you are supporting Montego .... I say you are doing just the opposite.
It wouldn't be "good" even for a winter thru hike. I fear that you're trolling .... or want to see folks fail.
Because you imply that you are very experienced and still insist on encouraging folly.
***?
1) I quote you again: "4900ci is good." Then why on earth shouldn't he fill the pockets? Which is what you imply by direct inference!
2) The bleeding thing weighs a claimed 77oz. Ridiculously heavy.
And i'll sell you a $100.00 framing hammer for $20.00 tomorrow. But it won't do you much good if you need a finish hammer, will it? It's an Estwing .... such a deal I make you. Phooey!
Oh please!!! I am saying it's a poor choice. And so would anyone w/o ulterior motives .... unless he's ignorant of thru hiking.
Agreed!
And you imply that you're very experienced? The pockets are unnecessary and overly heavy to boot.
A pack external or otherwise need not weigh 77oz to provide ventilation.
Faster than what? He'll be spending a lot of time in camp due to a starting weight of 45 to 50lbs plus food and water.
Wrong again on two counts.
1) Properly worn packs, external or otherwise carry loads best when the load is centered around one's hips. IOW .... lower not higher. In addition; how a pack carries a load has nothing to do w/external or internal choice. But all to with proper pack design and proper fitment.
2) Assuming that one's wearing a proper pack, a 50lb load (for example) feels just like a .............
50lb load. Doesn't matter if it's an external or internal frame.
Furthermore, you sir show you're ignorance. Over and over again.
I certainly hope that Montego is astute enuff to realize that even if you do indeed have his best interests at heart .... he'd best ignore your advice.
Yes, on the replacing all of his gear .... parts of the hike.
On the buying lots of Vitamin I and other medical necessities.
And finally on a long bus ride home in despair; when due to injury, or lack of time (e.g. too slow), and/or he's jist plain misrable .... he ups an quits!
Those must be the parts you're referring to.
Effing A Bubba!
More ignorance. Enuff said.
You and Wild Cowboy should get together. You sound so much alike.
100% Pure USDA Choice Unadulterated Bovine Excrement!
Every day carrying 50lbs is a crappy day. Even the days when one's lucky to make 6-8 miles.
Let's see at 8 miles per day it should take Montego only 9 months to finish. Way to go Crumbsnatcher .... you're really doing him such a favor.
BTW. all thru hikes consist of mostly ?crappy" days. With very few truly good days.
Heck a good day is when an Angel (ie. TA) offers up a "crappy" snickers bar.
But don't take my word for it Crumbsnatcher .... just read the hundreds of trail journals.
Thrus know that it's a test of endurance, etc.
Thrus know it's a "crappy" deal.
And that's what makes it sooo special. It's Effing Hard!!!
But no one but a loser (or a squeaky, and co.) wants to make it harder than it has to be.
Notice that I didn't have to add "god hiking" to my post to Montego?
Because it's clearly implied within the body of my post.
OTOH, I honestly wonder if you're one of the many i've known over the years who goes out of his way to give bad advice hoping to see folks fail.
I've seen lots of bad advice on the Net over the many yrs. i've been on line .... but yours is classic!
I'm done w/u Crumbsnatcher.
Peace,
Richard.
Don't know how or where you got your "knowledge" of backpacking or thru hiking but this entry is about the most horses**t that I've ever read!:mad:
geek
Jim Adams
03-09-2008, 12:36
Thank you for your post, and no, I'm not the least bit offended.
You are correct in stating that money did play a large role in my pack choice, though not the only reason. Another reason that I chose an external frame pack was because with many years and perhaps 100's of miles on different trails, I am most familiar with the external frames (actually replacing an old Camp Trails one I've used since the early '70's) and with the few choices of external frame packs available now days, the "Carson" seemed (for it's size) the one with the least weight and the most features.
In my defence, my pack trail weight should be somewhere between 40# to 45# (I hope) with 5 days of food and two litres of water. I do have enough prior experience to NOT load-up, just to fill the pack to its' full capacity.
Additional Items:
Jansport external frame pack - 77 oz
Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight Tent - 71 oz
Campmor 20* down sleeping bag - 36 oz
Thermarest Z-lite sleeping pad - 15 oz
Total 'BIG FOUR' 199 oz = 12 lb 7 oz
As you can see, I am a long way from being an UL, however, with no obligations nor time frame, my hike will be more about seeing what I can see rather than the 'destination' or mileage per day. HYOH.
Again, thank you for your observations.
Montego,
You will be fine with an external and also with this base weight.
The old Peak 1's with the light suspension system were not very good because of the too light suspension, the flex frame was actually what made them tolerable however the later models with the XPD suspension were great packs.
I did R&D work for Peak 1 with that suspension and it turned out to be the best pack that I've ever carried.
I currently own 2 Gregorys, 2 TNF, 1 Dana, 1 kelty, 1 Jansport and an Atmos 50. All are internals and seem to work well enough to get the job done however I am currently searching for a Peak 1 with the XPD suspension to go back to the externals. I have found nothing better yet than that old Peak 1 pack.
If the trail is a prepared surface (AT, PCT, BMT, JMT etc.), an external will almost always be a better choice than an internal and far more comfortale for the job at hand. If scrambling off trail and bushwacking is your route then an interal is the only way to go but not because of its carrying comfort but more due to the snug fit.
Don't worry about the extra 1.5lbs of the external...it will not make that much difference and may actually lessen your chance of injury due to the more upright walking position of the external.
As Crumb stated earlier, your pack will not make you fail your thru...your attitude and amount of heart is the important thing and if 1.5lbs. extra is too much to carry then possibly the goal is too much of the influence instead of the trip itself. I wouldn't mind losing another 1.5 lbs. from my pack weight but hell if I'm going to leave the 2 liters of whiskey home!
Most of the switch to internals weren't because they work better...it was simply a fashion statement!:D
geek
StepChld
03-09-2008, 13:11
How to win friends and influence people??? :D
Now that's funny!:banana
Cool!
There are other externals one could have chosen. But they'd probably all be more (even much more) expensive. If not, just as "crappy."
Ditto. I love externals best of all.
I remind you that you want to thru hike <jesting tone>!
I assume (wrongly?) you *want* to have a good time and succeed as well!
Don't set yourself up for failure!
Or even worse: Set yourself up for misery and/or injury just to prove that you can make it while carrying too much weight.
Please leave that sort of thing to the youngsters. You and I need all the help we can get. <chuckle>
Truly heartfelt: If you can't afford to buy the best gear for your needs .... wait until next year.
If "next year" never comes .... don't believe the extremists .... you won't regret it on your deathbed. Thru hiking's just another very cool thing to do of many. ;-)
Features are *usually* detrimental to an item's utility. It's a negative quality in most instances.
As for it's size .... it's too freakin biiig!
First: There's nothing to defend because I am not attacking you. Are we cool on that? :-)
You're guessing? Ok. <shrug> Not uncommon.
No worries; i'll tell you what you can expect given the little you've told me; added to a whole lot of experience and *Mega* research. Plus I don't listen too closely to the Crumbsnatcher's of this world. So, here goes and I truly HTH:
At over 45lbs you'll be carrying expedition weight loads. So you'll need expedition weight boots. Add another 4lbs or so to your total weight. And that's what I refer to as unsprung weight. Hurts more. ;-) So you'll need some more expedition strength Ibuprofen.
Now we'll add another 11oz for two one liter Lexan Nalgenes .... simply because IME folks who carry expedition loads for thru hikes always choose heavy water carriers. So, that's another +81oz.
Next we add heavy clothing. And again I add that inexperienced thrus always carry too much clothing weight. Although not necessarily too much clothing.
Note: Often lack of adequate funding is *wholly* responsible for heavier loads .... along w/many other heavier choices. Leading to the number one *root* cause of failed thru hikes!
Then why do you mention that one criterion was *indeed* the high capacity?
Do you plan to add another thru hiker's stuff to your pack when his is too heavy for him? <tic>
If your answer is that you need a do it all pack for after your hike and can't afford two packs .... well, I feel for ya bro but anyone can afford to fail. Trust me, you can wait until you can afford to succeed.
As for experience in general: Why does your prior experience mean that you know what's best for a thru hike? Rhetorical Q Montego. The answer is obvious .... you would not have made such a poor choice if you truly were experienced.
Now why is it that when hiking and money come up .... as they must .... no one wants to admit that they lack either or both?
Yes, I know you admitted to the money thing. Barely! But you still claim that you know what you're doing after so many years and so many miles.
So, Montego what am I missing here? <chuckle>
There are other external frame packs that are lighter.
And some externals that are lighter and hold much more than 4900ci. But that one's expensive initially. But economical in the long term. YMMV of course. <pun intended>
BTW, did you notice that the pack is for 18-21in torsos? You must be a big guy because i'm six-one and I usually wear a 17-18in pack depending on design.
Be assured torso size maters. Even with external frame packs.
Too heavy but a great overall tent at a reasonable price. For a novice hiker, i'd say coool! But for anyone with even a modicum of experience i'd suggest a tarptent-like shelter.
But they're usually much more expensive. <shrug>
Too heavy. But you already knew i'd say that. ;-)
What you might not have realized is that down *anything* is not for thru hike novices if rain is assured.
Too heavy! And down is not recommended for thru hike novices if rain is assured.
<chuckle> That's actually the Big Three. The Big Four include the other essential: Cooking/food.
Not to sound pedantic but here goes for the novices:
We need food (includes cooking system and water), clothing and shelter and something to carry it in/on.
We usually break it down as follows:
Pack (although it should come last it's always mentioned first). And that should tell you something right there.
Rule Of Thumb; over 2lbs and/or over 3000ci and it's *probably* a poor choice.
Cooking, Food & Fuel. Represented by a cooking system. But actual food weight should not exceed 2lbs per day. 1.5lbs is doable.
Rule Of Thumb: A complete cook system should not exceed 11oz including fuel carried (if any). If you're like most who carry a huge pack .... your stove system alone weighs more than that.
Water ROT: Water carrier weight's should not exceed 1oz per liter of water carried.
Shelter/Sleep system. Always stated separately. But i'll show why it's good to conjoin.
A one person shelter should not exceed 24oz. But now we'll be more exposed to the elements and therefore will have to take great care in our sleep system selections. And our clothing selections. Down is out unless one is able and experienced enuff to take care of it properly.
So, our choice of a LTW shelter (*not* UL, a UL shelter would weigh app 8oz) directly affects our other choices.
Beginning to see a pattern here .... I hope?
First we see a lack of experience leading to thinking that a low budget is OK. Leading to heavy weight choices. Which lead to the need for even heavier choices. For example the heavy boots I mentioned above.
Now, I bet that your cook system is heavy. And that your clothing is heavy. And so on. And on and on.
Normally I don't subscribe to the usual Lemming mentality. ie, simply follow the herd. But often enough the majority make choices because it's what works.
The *vast* majority of *successful* thrus choose the lightest weight options they can possibly afford. Even taking risks that I wouldn't recommend to any but the most knowledgeable.
The majority agree that what works on a thru is the lightest options affordable added to *knowledge!*
Bravado is a recipe for failure. Nuff said here.
I'm not an "UL" either. When i'm carrying expedition weights. <chuckle> Or when i'm on a dayhike.
Mostly i'm an LTW hiker. By virtue of choosing the right equipment (at times SUL) for the task and then adding a bit more weight in luxuries.
But I can afford to buy what I feel is best .... or I wait until I can.
BTW; I hike for fun and profit. Mostly fun. :-) Unnecessarily brutal loads are *not* fun. Heck, they weren't fun when I was eighteen.
FYIs:
1) My usual 3 season LTW weight w/food, fuel and water for five days.... (w/two quarts) .... is always less than 25lbs using one of my external frame packs. That includes luxuries such as a thermarest, camp chair, lots of heavy food goodies, and a very heavy cooking system.
2) So, my UL load isn't UL either. It's SUL .... at well under 14lbs for five days including food and two quarts of water. No luxuries. And knowing I will be miserable.
In fact i never carry an UL load.
Because it's only a half measure. IOW, one suffers almost as much as w/a SUL load but has none of the luxuries of an LTW load.
Note that my SUL load is probably less that what your Big Four will weigh (estimated). And that my LTW load is less than half what we can expect your starting load to be.
Let's say that I choose door number one whenever possible. <chuckle> Ergo: I can enjoy the hiking and enjoy the camping also.
Best of both worlds!
Also; it takes money and experience to go SUL. But it doesn't take much cash to do an LTW thru. Just lotsa experience. <sigh>
As for an LTW thru w/adequate funds .... not that much cash or experience required. Just research, practice (both free) and a bit of time to prepare (not usually too expensive either).
Hmmm, the above implies that you don't mind failing to finish. If so then I stand corrected in all but two observations:
1) You still unnecessarily risk injury.
2) You will not have as good a time as you could have had.
IMHO, if you don't care if you finish then you are not thru hiking.
WTS; I hate to burst your bubble but what you'll see as a HW hiker is lotsa dirt and trees. You'll either be too beat to truly explore (and/or enjoy) you surroundings or you just won't get far enough to see all that you could have seen.
Even at 15 miles per day w/a May 1st start you'd be well into October by the end.
Don't take my word for anything. Read the journals. Ask past thru who want you to succeed.
In the end .... it's true only you can ***HYOH. Which means that you'll do as you please no matter what I say. <shrug> That's cool.
[quote=Montego;562404]HYOH.
***I truly dislike that expression. It implies that a difference of opinion means one is judging another. I am not judging you. Your human worth is not in question!
I want you to have a great time! I want you to succeed! Nuff said.
Well, as usual I fear that i've wasted my breath. But knowing that I tried and might have made a difference for the better .... Hmmm?
Peace,
Richard.
For what it's worth, some additionl info Richard:
Though I have lived a couple of years in Georgia and have vacationed several times in Florida, all my backpacking has been done in Europe, the West, and the Mid-West, so I am here on WB to learn what I can from the 'veterans' of the AT. I have learned a lot from you guys and gals and continue to learn more about what it is like to hike out East, and for this I say thank you.
For footwear I am using NB trail runners and Crock knock-offs for stream crossings and camp shoes (yeah, I probably don't need camp shoes with trail runners, but it gives my shoes a chance to dry out when in camp).
No, I don't use the heavier Nalgenes. My 4 litre capacity is made up by using 2x1 litre Platys and 2x1 litre Gatorade (expendable) bottles.
Torso size has little to do with heigth. I have a 19" torso and the Jansport external frame pack fits just right.
Tarptents may be fine for a lot of people, but I prefer a full two-person tent plus I've heard a lot of positive things said about the Clip Flashlight (the only down-side is it's not free standing).
I've always used down bags and coats and am not a novice when it comes to caring for them to include keeping them clean and dry.
As far as clothes goes, my hiking shorts(1), wind pants(1), t-shirt(1), long sleeve shirt(1), thermal top(1), thermal bottom(1), watch cap(1), gloves(1 pair), ponch(1), jacket(1), and hiking socks(3) with liners(2) are all synthetic (polyester, nylon) or wool (gloves, hiking socks).
I admit that my cook system (Coleman white gas stove) is heavier than I would like, but just love that 'rocket' sound while I simmer full meals. Actually, my Model 400 has seen me through a lot and I just can't let it go.
As far as time to hike, I'll be starting NOBO from HF on May 7th to Mt. K, then SOBO to Mt. Springer. I have over 5 months to summit Mt. K then exit Baxter SP. Once SOBO, who cares how long it takes me to get to Georgia. Getting out of Baxter before it's "closed" to summit hikers will be my only deadline.
Monty
shelterbuilder
03-09-2008, 21:05
...I admit that my cook system (Coleman white gas stove) is heavier than I would like, but just love that 'rocket' sound while I simmer full meals. Actually, my Model 400 has seen me through a lot and I just can't let it go....
Monty
If you truly love the "roar" of the rocket, check out ebay - there's an old Optimus 99 for sale (check "backpacking stoves" under "sporting goods") that makes just as much noise, but doesn't weigh nearly as much - I know, because I still use mine!:D
If you truly love the "roar" of the rocket, check out ebay - there's an old Optimus 99 for sale (check "backpacking stoves" under "sporting goods") that makes just as much noise, but doesn't weigh nearly as much - I know, because I still use mine!:D
Will do, thanks for the info.
Jim Adams
03-09-2008, 21:09
If you truly love the "roar" of the rocket, check out ebay - there's an old Optimus 99 for sale (check "backpacking stoves" under "sporting goods") that makes just as much noise, but doesn't weigh nearly as much - I know, because I still use mine!:D
Hard to simmer, louder than an F15, more reliable than a rock...cool little stove...cutting edge at the time!
geek
Programbo
03-10-2008, 07:36
If you truly love the "roar" of the rocket,
One of my favorite AT memories..The sound my SVEA 123 made :)
CrumbSnatcher
03-10-2008, 19:58
Well I don't know where Rallen's posts went, but I recieved a private message-more advice from him about this thread. My girlfriend said that by the way he keeps calling me "bubba" and the way he talks he sounds like a serviceman, and I refuse to disrespect anyone who has been in the service. For the record I was under the impression that we were all free to speak and give advice to help each other and i apologize for this public spat.i would never give someone advice to fail, as i was accused of! I also apologize for not being able to spell or stucture sentences like most people can, I am a brick/block layer, a father, and a hiker! I seriously don't know why he singled me out when it seemed like everone else was agreeing with me. I really enjoyed getting back in touch with the many friends i made over the years and appreciate the good advice that others have given, and all the funny stuff that me laugh out loud. Maybe he's right and i'm not the one who should be giving advice,and i will stop! but I sure do love that trail,my trail friends, and my external pack. I'd rather be out there right now in stead of being on this computer anyway. i might not be educated,but im not ignorant. im going to go sit in the truck now(i promise not to play with the radio)
Tipi Walter
03-10-2008, 20:20
I used to own (and carry!) a wood frame with a tump line. You had to rig it up with a Duluth pack, IIRC. You could haul an outboard motor with that thing, or a camp kitchen, or just about any d**n thing you care to mention. It was an uncomfortable, even painful thing, but it did get the job done. Then for a while I had an army surplus metal rack with a load shelf and better harness, no tump. It was a bit better, not so heavy. Still no hip belt, though. I've never owned a modern external, but I bet they are more versatile than the internals I've owned. If you are going UL, there's just no point in one of those. All the structure you need can be had from a sleeping pad or a groundsheet. But if you're going to haul something, I would guess an external frame is the way to go, just like it always has been. Unless you want to drag a travois.
I'm not really that old. I probably always had out-of-date equipment. :D
I was out on a trip last year and ran into a guy with a Duluth. Took a fotog of the thing and my neck/arms hurt just looking at it:(frameless of course): Same thing??
Tipi Walter
03-10-2008, 20:43
Externals are great and proven, I lived out of one for 22 years(see fotog), wore that sucker out! A North Face BackMagic, etc. All the zippers were replaced several times, replaced some straps and plastic buckles, a new hip buckle, etc. And I got used to it sitting off the ground against a tree, didn't fold in on itself, easy to pack and kept things separate and a little better organized than my current internal. Still have it.
Packs are hard to buy since you just never know how they'll work until 2 weeks into a trip carrying weight. So it's hard to pay big bucks for something that just might not feel right. My current internal is a load hauling monster by Mystery Ranch, the most comfy pack I've ever worn and I've tried everything from Keltys to Sundog to Gregory to Lowe to Army ALICE and the Dana Terraplane.
Hey Tipi,
Well, the thing I used to haul was more vertical. Really not too different from a big internal pack, without the frameworks or the harness. It had a flap on either side with oval grommets which fit over eyelets on the frame, and you ran a stiff wire down through the eyes to secure the whole pack onto the frame. Then you loaded 'er up, wrestled it onto your knee, then swung it around onto your back by dipping one shoulder down into the strap and straightening up. Then you bent about double and felt around for the other strap, and for the tump, if you were using it. If you didn't have a hernia yet, you could try to straighten up and walk. I have no idea how much you could carry, but it reminded me of a voyageur pack.
It was called a Duluth pack, I think, but Duluth was a manufacturer, i guess. So they probably made a bunch of styles. That one in your picture looks almost like a kitchen sack. The canoe trippers would have a kit about that size in a wooden crate built to fit athwart a canoe in the center. To set up the kitchen, you just hoisted it out onto the beach, popped the lid and set it up like a table for preparing food. The stove, utensil's and everything would be right in there along with all but the bulk food items. It was called the wannigan.
The only thing more uncomfortable I've ever carried was a barrel in a flimsy little carrying harness. It stuck into my back and pulled my arms right back. It was my food load for a trip down a river. The pity of it was that I hardly ate at all that trip. Just didn't get hungry, and I had at least enough food for a month. The trip turned out to be faster than I expected, too. I was going down the Athabasca in spring flood, so I really only paddled for direction. Had some fun, though. I remember getting stuck on a sand bar in the middle of a mile wide section of the river. Had to get out and walk.
shelterbuilder
03-10-2008, 21:03
Well I don't know where Rallen's posts went, but I recieved a private message-more advice from him about this thread. My girlfriend said that by the way he keeps calling me "bubba" and the way he talks he sounds like a serviceman, and I refuse to disrespect anyone who has been in the service. For the record I was under the impression that we were all free to speak and give advice to help each other and i apologize for this public spat.i would never give someone advice to fail, as i was accused of! I also apologize for not being able to spell or stucture sentences like most people can, I am a brick/block layer, a father, and a hiker! I seriously don't know why he singled me out when it seemed like everone else was agreeing with me. I really enjoyed getting back in touch with the many friends i made over the years and appreciate the good advice that others have given, and all the funny stuff that me laugh out loud. Maybe he's right and i'm not the one who should be giving advice,and i will stop! but I sure do love that trail,my trail friends, and my external pack. I'd rather be out there right now in stead of being on this computer anyway. i might not be educated,but im not ignorant. im going to go sit in the truck now(i promise not to play with the radio)
Crumbsnatcher -
Don't sweat the little things in life! (And what a boring life it would be if we all dressed alike, thought alike, and acted alike.) In Rallen's case, he seems to be either MADLY IN LOVE with his internal, or loves to be mad at his external, and seems to be blinded by this to any other possibilities. I, for one, love the way an external can be organized by using the pockets and compartments, as well as the ventilation it provides for my back. And, now that I'm forced to carry all of those silly little cans of liquid nutrition when I hike, I can't imagine even trying to jam them into an internal!:eek:
My father once told me that opinions are like @$$holes - everybody has one, and most of them stink! :D
Hi saw post early abount the external pack being to heady while i have not done my Thur-hike yet i have done a lot of hikeing on other trail with my Jansport External.It is a 5000 cu.in. with my big four plus food and water my pack weight is 29lbs.That with ever thing. So you can get petty light ever with a External.
Programbo
03-10-2008, 22:31
.......It is a 5000 cu.in. with my big four plus food and water my pack weight is 29lbs.That with ever thing. So you can get petty light ever with a External.
Right..Like someone said the problem most people have is they think they HAVE to fill up the whole pack and then it ends up weighing 45 pounds..Just pack it with the same amount of stuff you`d cram into a 2500 cu. in internal and you are set with room to spare and compartments to organize..The pack might weight 2-3 pounds more but when you are comparing 26 to 28.5 pounds who cares?...And I can assure you the 25 pounds will feel lighter and carry better in the external.....Now who said "travois"?..I haven`t heard that since my days back on the forks of the Grand with Hugh Glass and Jim Bridger ;)
Tipi Walter
03-10-2008, 23:04
Right..Like someone said the problem most people have is they think they HAVE to fill up the whole pack and then it ends up weighing 45 pounds..Just pack it with the same amount of stuff you`d cram into a 2500 cu. in internal and you are set with room to spare and compartments to organize..The pack might weight 2-3 pounds more but when you are comparing 26 to 28.5 pounds who cares?...And I can assure you the 25 pounds will feel lighter and carry better in the external.....Now who said "travois"?..I haven`t heard that since my days back on the forks of the Grand with Hugh Glass and Jim Bridger ;)
Yeah I hear ya. My people used the dog travois and I'm still using one to this day, just can't find a dog willing to drag it.:)
Jim Adams
03-11-2008, 06:03
Crumb,
Read the PM you sent me....hang in there buddy....doesn't appear that you are the ignorant one!
geek
Lone Wolf
03-11-2008, 06:07
Crumb,
Read the PM you sent me....hang in there buddy....doesn't appear that you are the ignorant one!
geek
same here. just another packsniffin' know-it-all
Yeah I hear ya. My people used the dog travois and I'm still using one to this day, just can't find a dog willing to drag it.:)
That's you, Tipi. ;)
sheepdog
03-11-2008, 19:33
Crumb,
Read the PM you sent me....hang in there buddy....doesn't appear that you are the ignorant one!
geek
I'm riding with you Crumb...
Why is it that so many argumentative people end their post with "peace"?:-?
shelterbuilder
03-11-2008, 20:39
Yeah I hear ya. My people used the dog travois and I'm still using one to this day, just can't find a dog willing to drag it.:)
Get yourself a couple of siberian huskies - just don't let them off the leash or you'll find them 5 counties away!
Tipi Walter
03-12-2008, 09:45
Get yourself a couple of siberian huskies - just don't let them off the leash or you'll find them 5 counties away!
I DID find a nearly willing dog to haul my travois but he was really more willing to pull night ambushes and preferred to travel light. The little german shepherd in the back was a travois-dog-in-training but balked at the idea when it was fully presented to him. He prefered to hang with his nightstalking buddy. My current dog considers himself a special forces type and would whip around and chew off any travois attempt.
SunnyWalker
03-21-2008, 22:23
I use a kelti, Continental Divide 5300, minus the top hatch cover thingy that converts into a fanny pack. One does not have to fill up the entire pack. If one does, this problem takes care of itself as you will eventually send stuff home (most hikers send something home). It is very comfortable to me but I have always used externals as they were the only thing out there and then when internal came along the external fit my pocketbook better. I like the air circulation also 9for externals). One has to decide for oneself. Don't get all jacked up about it all. Figure out what YOU like and use it. I know a hiker who still uses his BSA canvas external backpack. :-)
warraghiyagey
03-22-2008, 00:12
I'm riding with you Crumb...
Why is it that so many argumentative people end their post with "peace"?:-?
They don't!!
Peace
:D
warraghiyagey
03-22-2008, 00:15
What the heck is a rallen?? :-?
:D
Jerryatric
03-23-2008, 23:54
During the past three years I've hiked sections of the AT, beginning at Amicalola and getting as far as Catwaba last summer, and plan to get to Duncannon this summer. During this period I've used a variety of packs, starting with an Aether 90 internal (that I was crazy enough to fill totally up), then a Gossamer Gear Mariposa. Both of these are internal frames, but that's the only similarity between the two. The Mariposa is essentially a duffle bag with straps, and it's hard to retrieve anything without emptying the thing. It weighs next to nothing.
I then decided to revert back to my old Kelty external frame, but wanted to update the hip belt and shoulder straps from the 1970-vintage webbing. I was happy to discover that Kelty does in fact have updated replacement parts that fit that frame, so that pack went with me on the next portion of the hike.
In an effort to cut weight, I went back to the Mariposa for the section from Davenport Gap to Damascus. When I arrived in Damascus I was soaking wet from all the sweat running down my back and legs, so I purchased an internal frame Osprey Atmos at MRO in town. It is unique, as far as internal frame packs go, in that it has an air pocket between the wearer's back and the pack, so now I have some ventilation for my back. It works fine, but I'm once again thinking about using my Kelty for the Catawba to Duncannon section later this summer. Those new straps and hip belt are a major improvement, and it's as comfortable, if not more so, than any of the other packs.
By the time I finally get to Katahdin I should have enough packs to outfit a boy scout troop.