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max patch
03-21-2008, 09:14
From another list....

Just got off the fone with my good buddy Sundown. He and Fireman are at
the Holiday Inn Express in Hiawassee. He tells me that as of last week,
there will be no hiker discounts at the Inn because of the actions of
several groups of hikers starting out this season. Thought I'd heads-up
anyone who might want to know that....

Apparently some bad things happened to some of the laundry equipment
(are there washers/dryers there?) AND...some folks were smoking pot in a room. Which they said wasn't so bad...but, they did it in a non-smoking room. I say it's bad either way. You can't wait a freakin' day to get back in the woods? Inconsiderate jerks that others are and will continue to pay the price for. Oh, and the woman also said something about there seeming to be a lot of clueless, middle-aged guys yogi'n laundry.

Chaco Taco
03-21-2008, 09:16
Just a matter of time :rolleyes:

JAK
03-21-2008, 09:34
I thought staying at the Holiday Inn Express was supposed to make you smart. :confused:

Roots
03-21-2008, 09:39
From another list....

Just got off the fone with my good buddy Sundown. He and Fireman are at
the Holiday Inn Express in Hiawassee. He tells me that as of last week,
there will be no hiker discounts at the Inn because of the actions of
several groups of hikers starting out this season. Thought I'd heads-up
anyone who might want to know that....

Apparently some bad things happened to some of the laundry equipment
(are there washers/dryers there?) AND...some folks were smoking pot in a room. Which they said wasn't so bad...but, they did it in a non-smoking room. I say it's bad either way. You can't wait a freakin' day to get back in the woods? Inconsiderate jerks that others are and will continue to pay the price for. Oh, and the woman also said something about there seeming to be a lot of clueless, middle-aged guys yogi'n laundry.


Thanks for the heads up. I was planning on staying there and probably still will. There's always someone out there that likes to ruin it for everyone else. :(

I hate that for anywhere along the trail. These places are trying to help us out by giving a discount to us. That is a true shame that some people don't get that and abuse they're kindness.

Christopher Robin
03-21-2008, 10:07
Roots hope you can soomth things over for others please. Thanks.

Roots
03-21-2008, 10:10
Roots hope you can soomth things over for others please. Thanks.
We'll see. It will all work out. Cloud 9 will probably be more packed than normal now.:)

Skyline
03-21-2008, 10:15
It would behoove those of us who are not irresponsible hikers to go into Damage Repair Mode with regard to the Holiday Inn Express in Hiawasee. Since they opened, they have been nothing but decent to hikers AFAIK. Maybe they can come to see that most of us are good folks, once again. But it will take a special effort by us.

As far as the hiker discount goes, the financial benefit wouldn't be a major deciding point for me anyway, except it does kinda say "Hikers Welcome."

WalkingStick75
03-21-2008, 10:16
Those kind enought to give a hiker discount should do so upon check out so if they choose to not act in a responsible manner they can pay full price and those that appriciate their kindness are not punished.

Freeleo
03-21-2008, 10:19
maybe the said hikers will catch wind of this and try to make things better by contacting and apologizing..

Skyline
03-21-2008, 10:37
maybe the said hikers will catch wind of this and try to make things better by contacting and apologizing..


If they don't, quickly, IMHO it would be appropriate to notify service providers further north—if anyone knows with 100% certainty legal names/trail names/have photos of the culprits. If I was a hostel, motel, or shuttle operator in Franklin, Fontana, Davenport, Hot Springs, Erwin, Dennis Cove, Damascus, etc. this is information I'd be able to use about now.

Perhaps it would help build a new bridge with the folks at the HIE/Hiawassee if someone in the area asked them for some of this information (they may know a name or two, anyway), and volunteered to spread the word. It would show that the rest of us care, and they'd get a little payback by helping too.

Chaco Taco
03-21-2008, 10:39
Well just remember the Port Clinton incident last year:rolleyes: I doubt that will happen


maybe the said hikers will catch wind of this and try to make things better by contacting and apologizing..

Lone Wolf
03-21-2008, 10:48
From another list....

Just got off the fone with my good buddy Sundown. He and Fireman are at
the Holiday Inn Express in Hiawassee. He tells me that as of last week,
there will be no hiker discounts at the Inn because of the actions of
several groups of hikers starting out this season. Thought I'd heads-up
anyone who might want to know that....

Apparently some bad things happened to some of the laundry equipment
(are there washers/dryers there?) AND...some folks were smoking pot in a room. Which they said wasn't so bad...but, they did it in a non-smoking room. I say it's bad either way. You can't wait a freakin' day to get back in the woods? Inconsiderate jerks that others are and will continue to pay the price for. Oh, and the woman also said something about there seeming to be a lot of clueless, middle-aged guys yogi'n laundry.

typical behavior nowadays on the trail

Johnny Thunder
03-21-2008, 11:15
If they don't, quickly, IMHO it would be appropriate to notify service providers further north—if anyone knows with 100% certainty legal names/trail names/have photos of the culprits. If I was a hostel, motel, or shuttle operator in Franklin, Fontana, Davenport, Hot Springs, Erwin, Dennis Cove, Damascus, etc. this is information I'd be able to use about now.

Perhaps it would help build a new bridge with the folks at the HIE/Hiawassee if someone in the area asked them for some of this information (they may know a name or two, anyway), and volunteered to spread the word. It would show that the rest of us care, and they'd get a little payback by helping too.


Skyline,

I sure hope you never mess up. Round up the Internet Posse, y'all!

Johnny

Johnny Thunder
03-21-2008, 11:17
Actually, I'm wrong. These hikers should be rounded up and sterilized. Sorry for jumping the gun.

Skyline
03-21-2008, 11:35
Actually, I'm wrong. These hikers should be rounded up and sterilized. Sorry for jumping the gun.


Nah. They just need to be refused accommodations a couple places up the Trail, and be told precisely why.

Johnny Thunder
03-21-2008, 11:38
I've just spoken with the Narcotics Units of a few local Police Departments near the trail and informed them to be on the lookout for men with backpacks, possibly moving in a pedestrian fashion. .

Midway Sam
03-21-2008, 11:51
I've just spoken with the Narcotics Units of a few local Police Departments near the trail and informed them to be on the lookout for men with backpacks, possibly moving in a pedestrian fashion. .

They should make quite a few busts.

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 12:13
this business obviously did not know much about hikers... what is so bad about smoke in a room?

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 12:14
Nah. They just need to be refused accommodations a couple places up the Trail, and be told precisely why.
because they do not behave within certain arbitrarily set standards of OK behavoir?

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 12:16
If they don't, quickly, IMHO it would be appropriate to notify service providers further north—if anyone knows with 100% certainty legal names/trail names/have photos of the culprits. If I was a hostel, motel, or shuttle operator in Franklin, Fontana, Davenport, Hot Springs, Erwin, Dennis Cove, Damascus, etc. this is information I'd be able to use about now.

Perhaps it would help build a new bridge with the folks at the HIE/Hiawassee if someone in the area asked them for some of this information (they may know a name or two, anyway), and volunteered to spread the word. It would show that the rest of us care, and they'd get a little payback by helping too.
get em, hitler! to the gas chamber with the infidels!!!

tripp
03-21-2008, 12:18
It's a matter of respect. Regardless of whether or not they are offering a hiker discount if they ask you not to smoke in a room, don't smoke in the room. It's that simple. The fact that they were offering a discount and these people still chose to disregard this simple request makes it even more ludicrous. These guys should be turned down for lodging in the future.

Jason of the Woods
03-21-2008, 12:18
It's a shame. What's worse is the hotel is doing that to so many because of a few. It will just cost them $. I was planning on Cloud 9 anyway. They seem much nicer and the fish looks pretty damn good.

A lot of hikers would "smoke" in the room. If they would actually clean smoking rooms then they would stay in them. That's why I never did when I smoked cigs. ;)

Bearpaw
03-21-2008, 12:24
because they do not behave within certain arbitrarily set standards of OK behavoir?

The rule about not smoking in a non-smoking room? Yes, that's arbitrary, but it's still a rule.

That LAW about smoking pot in Georgia? Yeah, it's arbitrary, but you can still face fines and jail for it.

These guys got off light. It's the folks who come after them that suffer.

Spend enough time breaking those "arbitrary" standards and they will enjoy their arbitrary legal consequences, especially if they stay at the Fontana Hilton.

Freeleo
03-21-2008, 12:25
it is not hard to step outside of a non smoking room to puff on your weed....spend six months on the trail but cant go outside to smoke...stupid

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 12:27
umm, if you are in the middle of town, it could be obvious, freeleo.

i say if you open up your business to the public, you should expect a variety of behavior. this is supposed to be a free country, and some people actually act that way.

tripp
03-21-2008, 12:30
So if you're at a friend's house or someone nice person picks you up at a trailhead and offers you dinner at their house, and they politely ask you not to smoke in their house, setting an arbitrary rule under which you may feel restricted, do you just light up anyway and disrespect them, because you feel the need to assert that this is a free country and you are a free man?

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 12:34
The rule about not smoking in a non-smoking room? Yes, that's arbitrary, but it's still a rule. what if there were no sex rooms for people who dont want to sleep atop the semen of others? further, what if there were 'no anal sex' rooms, in case you do not want to sleep after homosexuals? considering all of the nasty stuff that goes on in hotel rooms, for you fools and these owners to be outraged about a little smoke demonstrates your appetite for extreme delusion and lack of understanding of the world. people are not obligating to follow you into the black hole of delusion.


That LAW about smoking pot in Georgia? Yeah, it's arbitrary, but you can still face fines and jail for it. Yes. obey the gray headed men of fifty years ago. anyhow, i was referring more to the 'acceptable behavior' norms that other social fascists in here are citing. Like using laundry 'appropriately" ( none of us even know the details here) but that does not hold back the sea of the self righteous.

Johnny Thunder
03-21-2008, 12:35
The rule about not smoking in a non-smoking room? Yes, that's arbitrary, but it's still a rule.

That LAW about smoking pot in Georgia? Yeah, it's arbitrary, but you can still face fines and jail for it.

These guys got off light. It's the folks who come after them that suffer.

Spend enough time breaking those "arbitrary" standards and they will enjoy their arbitrary legal consequences, especially if they stay at the Fontana Hilton.


For these reasons and other let's leave the lawyerin' and policin' to those sworn and legaly bound to protect and honor our laws. Like, I don't know, maybe the police.

Or, if the hotel had such an issue with the smoke and property damage why not charge the card used to rent the room.

But, if there's anything learned from the Port Clinton Massarcree of 2007 it's that there 'aint no justice like angry mob justice!

travis71
03-21-2008, 12:35
umm, if you are in the middle of town, it could be obvious that you are doing something you ought not do because it is against the law, freeleo.

i say if you open up your business to the public, you should expect a variety of behavior. this is supposed to be a free country, and some people actually act that way. Because freedom means that I get to do what I want to, & piss on other peoples "rules" and "laws".

I fixed your statements for you.

greentick
03-21-2008, 12:36
umm, if you are in the middle of town, it could be obvious, freeleo.

i say if you open up your business to the public, you should expect a variety of behavior. this is supposed to be a free country, and some people actually act that way.

Liberty does not equal anarchy

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 12:36
So if you're at a friend's house or someone nice person picks you up at a trailhead and offers you dinner at their house, and they politely ask you not to smoke in their house, setting an arbitrary rule under which you may feel restricted, do you just light up anyway and disrespect them, because you feel the need to assert that this is a free country and you are a free man?
well, if i did, i would accept the consequences that would follow. if i valued the friendship, i would follow his rules. if i did not, i would accept the loss of a friend or a diminished friendship.

however, we were referring to a business trying to capitalize off of certain needs, not stopping at any point to maximize their profits. see the difference? kind of the apples and oranges thing.

how would you feel about no sex rooms?

Lone Wolf
03-21-2008, 12:36
this business obviously did not know much about hikers... what is so bad about smoke in a room?

it was a NON smoking room. duh

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 12:37
Liberty does not equal anarchy
smoking a little pot in a room does not quite constitute anarchy either, my friend.

Johnny Thunder
03-21-2008, 12:37
Liberty does not equal anarchy


Vigilante justice equals anarchy.

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 12:38
it was a NON smoking room. duh
and what if the hotel only offers non smoking rooms in order to appease certain potential yuppy uppy customers, and neglects cleaining the smoking room? are you still obligated to care about their petty concerns over a little smoke?

Almost There
03-21-2008, 12:42
umm, if you are in the middle of town, it could be obvious, freeleo.

i say if you open up your business to the public, you should expect a variety of behavior. this is supposed to be a free country, and some people actually act that way.


You are delusional yourself, that being said, if I was said hotel owner and you smoked up in a nonsmoking room at my hotel then by your own definition I have the right to tear your hide up!

If you want to smoke then get a smoking room, or.....don't stay at my hotel if you can't control yourself...monkeys masturbate all the time when the urge strikes them, what you are saying is that you are no better than them.

Perhaps the hotel should just take and hold a credit card, and if you violate then they charge it on your card. The last hotel we stayed at in Houston does this, $250 for smoking in a nonsmoking room.

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 12:45
You are delusional yourself, that being said, if I was said hotel owner and you smoked up in a nonsmoking room at my hotel then by your own definition I have the right to tear your hide up!

If you want to smoke then get a smoking room, or.....don't stay at my hotel if you can't control yourself...monkeys masturbate all the time when the urge strikes them, what you are saying is that you are no better than them.

Perhaps the hotel should just take and hold a credit card, and if you violate then they charge it on your card. The last hotel we stayed at in Houston does this, $250 for smoking in a nonsmoking room.
i was merely suggesting that it is silly for a hotel owner to throw a few rules on the wall and expect the masses to fall in line like sheep. not saying that concerns or charging for clean up are not justified.

Dances with Mice
03-21-2008, 12:49
...for you fools and these owners to be outraged about a little smoke demonstrates your appetite for extreme delusion and lack of understanding of the world. people are not obligating to follow you into the black hole of delusion. You are being judgemental and self-righteous.

A contract exists between the customers and the inn-keeper. The inn-keeper may not decide he has no obligation to provide beds, showers, hot water, linens, or a securable door after agreeing to provide those services. The customers also agrees to some obligations such as paying for their stay, not breaking the furniture, not stealing the towels and not smoking in rooms designated as non-smoking.

Those aren't rules. Those are agreements made between the customer and the owner. According to the OP, somebody didn't keep their word.

Perhaps in your worldview expecting people to keep their word is a black hole of delusion. For some people that expectation may be too high.

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 12:52
You are being judgemental and self-righteous.

A contract exists between the customers and the inn-keeper. The inn-keeper may not decide he has no obligation to provide beds, showers, hot water, linens, or a securable door after agreeing to provide those services. The customers also agrees to some obligations such as paying for their stay, not breaking the furniture, not stealing the towels and not smoking in rooms designated as non-smoking.

Those aren't rules. Those are agreements made between the customer and the owner. According to the OP, somebody didn't keep their word.

Perhaps in your worldview expecting people to keep their word is a black hole of delusion. For some people that expectation may be too high.
but what if all inn keepers band together and decide what they are and are not obligated to do, with out consulting the customer??
(which is a tad closer to reality than your simplistic scenario)

and as a result, come out with silly rules, like non smoking, simply as marketing ploys? am i supposed to care about the profits of a man that teams up with other businesses and does not consult me?

Ashman
03-21-2008, 12:59
but what if all inn keepers band together and decide what they are and are not obligated to do, with out consulting the customer??
(which is a tad closer to reality than your simplistic scenario)

and as a result, come out with silly rules, like non smoking, simply as marketing ploys? am i supposed to care about the profits of a man that teams up with other businesses and does not consult me?

Nope but just don't be surprised when the business owner chooses not to serve you or others like you. It is a free market, the owner has the right to establish the rules of his business, as a customer you have the choose to comply or take the business elsewhere.

Dances with Mice
03-21-2008, 13:12
but what if all inn keepers band together and decide what they are and are not obligated to do, with out consulting the customer?? (which is a tad closer to reality than your simplistic scenario)
and as a result, come out with silly rules, like non smoking, simply as marketing ploys? am i supposed to care about the profits of a man that teams up with other businesses and does not consult me? But what if they don't? There is a wide spectrum of lodging available in Hiawassee. Across the street, practically, from the HIE is another hotel in competition for overnight guests. The hikers chose to stay at the HIE, drove past two hostels to get there then agreed to pay a premium price for lodging in that town to stay there. It's hard to imagine them being herded like sheep. Baaaad analogy.

Appalachian Tater
03-21-2008, 13:50
The people at the Holiday Inn Express really go out of their way to accommodate hikers and there has been plenty of abuse, loud hikers partying till the early hours of the morning, pot smoking, dogs sneaked in, rooms trashed, etc. The discount wasn't deserved. Same thing for the one in Erwin.

solace
03-21-2008, 13:57
Todays behavior on the AT is just goofy to stupid by "some" folks! How long is it before we are all secluded to JUST Hostels & "cheap" motels where pot like plants are pretty much growing on the walls anyways... urgh.. c'mon folk... have some better sense!

Tin Man
03-21-2008, 13:59
The people at the Holiday Inn Express really go out of their way to accommodate hikers and there has been plenty of abuse, loud hikers partying till the early hours of the morning, pot smoking, dogs sneaked in, rooms trashed, etc. The discount wasn't deserved. Same thing for the one in Erwin.

It's a shame, but if a-hole hikers can't even be convinced on this thread then that's how it is going to be.

bulldog49
03-21-2008, 14:05
what if there were no sex rooms for people who dont want to sleep atop the semen of others? further, what if there were 'no anal sex' rooms, in case you do not want to sleep after homosexuals? considering all of the nasty stuff that goes on in hotel rooms, for you fools and these owners to be outraged about a little smoke demonstrates your appetite for extreme delusion and lack of understanding of the world. people are not obligating to follow you into the black hole of delusion.
Yes. obey the gray headed men of fifty years ago. anyhow, i was referring more to the 'acceptable behavior' norms that other social fascists in here are citing. Like using laundry 'appropriately" ( none of us even know the details here) but that does not hold back the sea of the self righteous.
\


You come across pretty self righteous yourself, not to mention immature and self-centered. :-?

Johnny Thunder
03-21-2008, 14:06
Todays behavior on the AT is just goofy to stupid by "some" folks! How long is it before we are all secluded to JUST Hostels & "cheap" motels where pot like plants are pretty much growing on the walls anyways... urgh.. c'mon folk... have some better sense!


The logic here is irrefutable. A few bad apples ruin the bunch, right? However, it is not our place to be the judge, jury, and executioner. People put in lawful positions to make such judgments are the only ones qualified to do so.

solace
03-21-2008, 14:07
NON-SMOKING means "non-smoking" . . . Its called RESPECT.. just go outside, go into the woods 200 feet up the hill from the Holiday Inn... wait 24 hrs and DO IT ON THE TRAIL!

Appalachian Tater
03-21-2008, 14:09
If you consider thru-hikers a group, then the group has a certain responsibility for policing the behavior of its members.

briarpatch
03-21-2008, 14:15
but what if all inn keepers band together and decide what they are and are not obligated to do, with out consulting the customer??
(which is a tad closer to reality than your simplistic scenario)

and as a result, come out with silly rules, like non smoking, simply as marketing ploys? am i supposed to care about the profits of a man that teams up with other businesses and does not consult me?

Actually, non-smoking rooms in the lodging industry are the direct result of consulting their customers. I've been travelling 30-40 weeks most years on business for longer than I care to think about, and have seen hotels go from no smoking restrictions, to mostly smoking rooms, to mostly non-smoking rooms based on what their customers want. Nothing arbitrary about it, no marketing ploys, just giving the the customers what they want. Several chains are now totally non-smoking because they had so many complaints and/or lost business when they ran out of non-smoking rooms. Rather than lose business when a "smoking floor" goes mostly unoccupied, they have converted to a full smoke free environment.

If you don't like the way they do business, you are certainly free to stay somewhere else, just as they are free to set the rules for their own property.

Skyline
03-21-2008, 14:19
umm, if you are in the middle of town, it could be obvious, freeleo.

i say if you open up your business to the public, you should expect a variety of behavior. this is supposed to be a free country, and some people actually act that way.


If you open your business to the public, and set some reasonable standards of behavior for them, you should expect that those standards will be followed.

Of course, we haven't heard from the (alleged) perps yet, so in hindsight until we do perhaps we should not be too harsh. It does frost me, and a lot of hikers, that in general a minority of our tribe does incredibly stupid, rude, and sometimes harmful things that reflect badly upon all of us and has consequences for all of us. It sounds like that's what has happened here, and I don't appreciate anyone calling me Hitler because I pointed it out and suggested a non-violent but possibly effective remedy.

Johnny Thunder
03-21-2008, 14:19
If you consider thru-hikers a group, then the group has a certain responsibility for policing the behavior of its members.


I agree with this.

Let's not have a repeat of last year when the "hiking community" took to the internet to perform "damage control" following the incident at Port Clinton and creating an immediate us-vs-them mentality on both sides. If you want to go ahead and spawn an entire class of hikers who feel they exist outside the mores which we've ascribed to then the easiest way is going to be limiting their options while they're currently hiking.

Also, if/when their friends stick up for them let's avoid calling them "dirty rotten liars."

Just my thoughts.

ofthearth
03-21-2008, 14:23
it was a NON smoking room. duh

Way to go!!!!!! NO DUH!!!!!!!!!! If you want to smoke get a smoking room !!!!!!! What's the problem with that??????????? I suppose you think it's find to make calls, play your music, weather radio etc in the shelter, standing next to someone etc. It's just a matter of respecting others as well as your own wishes. And what sex, anal or other wise, has got to do with not smoking in a NON-smoking room escapes me.

Skyline
03-21-2008, 14:28
but what if all inn keepers band together and decide what they are and are not obligated to do, with out consulting the customer??
(which is a tad closer to reality than your simplistic scenario)

and as a result, come out with silly rules, like non smoking, simply as marketing ploys? am i supposed to care about the profits of a man that teams up with other businesses and does not consult me?


If you are a smoker, ask for a room that permits smoking. Don't take a non-smoking room and then smoke in it. Especially an illegal substance.

As a reformed 3-pack-a-day smoker, I can't tolerate being around smoke. Whether it's blown into my face, or whether it lingers in the air in a tightly built space like a motel room. The odor makes me ill. That's why they have smoking rooms and non-smoking rooms. There are lots of folks like me, and there are lots of folks like you. We all get served at the Holiday Inn, but we are all expected to follow the rules.

Do you think you are above the rules?

Blister
03-21-2008, 14:28
this business obviously did not know much about hikers... what is so bad about smoke in a room?

Smoking in a non smoking room can actually cause the hotel to loose business. Many people today are non smokers (I am not one of them by the way)and when entering an area where heavy smoking has occured after being promised a non smoking room - it stinks, and the customer will refuse to stay there. I have seen this happen. To properly defumagate a hotel room after heavy smoking has occured it costs somewhere in the realm of over 500 bucks. Smoke does not go away it settles on surfaces leaving discoloration and stale odors. Curtains need to be dry cleaned as well as bedding materials washed, carpets need to be steam cleaned not to mention damage to wallpaper or repainting add in the labor for all of these tasks and smoking in a non smoking room costs the hotel money. The 85 dollar room rate doesnt cover those cleaning costs. Hotels usuallly have outdoor ashtrays for customers who smoke. Years ago I never thought of the damages but being in the hospitality industry I have seen the effects and now practice Leave no Trace as much as possible in towns as well. Hikers or not, it goes back to the issue of respecting rules and other people property. How will these folks treat other businesses, hostels and shelters, when they believe when they believe set guidelines do not apply to them???

Appalachian Tater
03-21-2008, 14:34
I agree with this.

Let's not have a repeat of last year when the "hiking community" took to the internet to perform "damage control" following the incident at Port Clinton and creating an immediate us-vs-them mentality on both sides. If you want to go ahead and spawn an entire class of hikers who feel they exist outside the mores which we've ascribed to then the easiest way is going to be limiting their options while they're currently hiking.

Also, if/when their friends stick up for them let's avoid calling them "dirty rotten liars."

Just my thoughts.Getting so drunk that you **** yourself and then ignoring signs saying "private pool no trespassing" before using it as a bathtub is on a whole different level from smoking in a non-smoking room. People should indeed keep this in mind.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-21-2008, 14:37
Businesses operate in a way that makes money. Giving a discount to attract customers that diminish the quality of the service offered to others by smoking anything in a non-smoking room or by wrecking the laundry facilities is bad for the bottom line.

Whitefoot, freedom does not mean freedom to use another person or business property in a manner they have requested it not be used -- nor does it mean you can totally disregard proper care of use of their property (as in putting muddy clothing in a washer or overloading a washer).

If hikers want to be welcomed and certainly if they want a discount they need to refrain from smoking in non-smoking rooms, smoke their pot outside and take care not to damage the premises or facilities. The entitlement mentality among thru-hikers - those rules don't apply to us because we are almighty thru-hikers - is at the core of why services are becoming endangered along the AT. If we as a community don't self-regulate, the lodging and dining facilities along the trail will not continue to welcome us.

Tin Man
03-21-2008, 14:38
Great points Blister. Smoking in a non-smoking room is exactly the same as busting up the furniture. No different. Costly remediation is required and should be charged to the occupant.

Johnny Thunder
03-21-2008, 14:41
Getting so drunk that you **** yourself and then ignoring signs saying "private pool no trespassing" before using it as a bathtub is on a whole different level from smoking in a non-smoking room. People should indeed keep this in mind.


Totally. I just wanted to point out that (from a semi-outsiders view) the situation last year was mishandled and that posters should consider that when considering this and other possible issues this year.

My point was that when we all gathered around that issue there was a tremendous demonstration of incestuous amplification on both sides. Let's be aware of that.

Appalachian Tater
03-21-2008, 14:43
I try to avoid anything to do with incestuous amplification on ANY side.

Johnny Thunder
03-21-2008, 14:44
I try to avoid anything to do with incestuous amplification on ANY side.


Me too. I also avoid Group Polarization unless I have my Blue Blockers.

emerald
03-21-2008, 14:47
It's the responsibility of business owners near the AT to deal with problem hikers and it's in their interest to do so. If they don't act, it's their choice.

If they want to charge more or exclude hikers in some other legal way from their establishment or prosecute that might be a solution. Maybe then, the AT would become about hiking again and primarily section hiking by people who have jobs, can afford to hike and know how to comport themselves.

Those hikers who travel with these individuals if they have any sense, will point out to them their errors. It is not our place, rather the businesses and their hiking companions who should watch out for themselves. The businesses at least may to a greater extent than many realize.

Dances with Mice
03-21-2008, 14:48
... a tremendous demonstration of incestuous amplification on both sides. I don't think that's legal in Georgia either.

Johnny Thunder
03-21-2008, 14:50
I don't think that's legal in Georgia either.


No, it totally is. Just checked. The rule is you need to have a lawn gnome, fisting mitten, and turkey baster.

Skyline
03-21-2008, 14:54
Smoking in a non smoking room can actually cause the hotel to loose business. Many people today are non smokers (I am not one of them by the way)and when entering an area where heavy smoking has occured after being promised a non smoking room - it stinks, and the customer will refuse to stay there. I have seen this happen. To properly defumagate a hotel room after heavy smoking has occured it costs somewhere in the realm of over 500 bucks. Smoke does not go away it settles on surfaces leaving discoloration and stale odors. Curtains need to be dry cleaned as well as bedding materials washed, carpets need to be steam cleaned not to mention damage to wallpaper or repainting add in the labor for all of these tasks and smoking in a non smoking room costs the hotel money. The 85 dollar room rate doesnt cover those cleaning costs. Hotels usuallly have outdoor ashtrays for customers who smoke. Years ago I never thought of the damages but being in the hospitality industry I have seen the effects and now practice Leave no Trace as much as possible in towns as well. Hikers or not, it goes back to the issue of respecting rules and other people property. How will these folks treat other businesses, hostels and shelters, when they believe when they believe set guidelines do not apply to them???


You obviously know what you're talking about, because of your experience in the hospitality industry. Thanks for posting.

It's very early in these guys' thru-hike. If they are barred from a place or two north of Hiawassee because word gets out about them, there is still time for them to reform and have a great hike that won't impact the rest of us (contacting the HIE/Hiawassee and offering an apology plus $$$ if they caused damages would help a lot). I'm not talking about calling out a lynching party--just letting other unsuspecting trail services providers know what happened in Hiawassee. They can rebuild their reputations through exemplary behavior and we can all sing Kum Ba Ya around a campfire at the Gathering.

Dances with Mice
03-21-2008, 14:55
No, it totally is. Just checked. The rule is you need to have a lawn gnome, fisting mitten, and turkey baster.Thanks. That explains Matthewski's gear list.

emerald
03-21-2008, 15:04
It's very early in these guys' thru-hike. If they are barred from a place or two north of Hiawassee because word gets out about them, there is still time for them to reform and have a great hike that won't impact the rest of us (contacting the HIE/Hiawassee and offering an apology plus $$$ if they caused damages would help a lot). I'm not talking about calling out a lynching party--just letting other unsuspecting trail services providers know what happened in Hiawassee. They can rebuild their reputations through exemplary behavior and we can all sing Kum Ba Ya around a campfire at the Gathering.

What you suggest can be done quietly without any posts, fuss or threats of retaliation here. Those who wish to forward information about what these individuals have done and their identies to your friends who own business farther north are not prohibited from doing so. Maybe you should do that now, rather than post.

Hooch
03-21-2008, 15:08
and what if the hotel only offers non smoking rooms in order to appease certain potential yuppy uppy customers, and neglects cleaining the smoking room? are you still obligated to care about their petty concerns over a little smoke?I don't see it as a petty concern as much as I do a health issue. Some people don't like the smell of smoke, myself included. Others are less fortunate and are allergic to it. This isn't an issue of so-called "smoker's rights". Simply put, it's a matter of respecting the rules and property of others. When you have guests in your home, do you allow them to come in and **** all over your carpet? My guess is no. They don't because they respect the rules of common decency that are expected of them while they are in your home. There should be no less standard expected of guests in a hotel/motel/hostel, IMHO.

A-Train
03-21-2008, 15:13
Hate to hear about pathetic crap like this. This sense of entitlement is garbage and the perps need to be called out.

I stayed there in 03' and had a great experience. I believe the place was pretty new and just starting to do a hiker rate. At 20 bucks a person, it was among one of the best deals on the whole trail, considering a room, laundry facilities, continental breakfast, location, pool/hot tub, etc.

Nothin' like a bunch of idiot pot smokers to fill the hiker stereotype.

sheepdog
03-21-2008, 15:39
Yes. obey the gray headed men of fifty years ago. anyhow, i was referring more to the 'acceptable behavior' norms that other social fascists in here are citing. Like using laundry 'appropriately" ( none of us even know the details here) but that does not hold back the sea of the self righteous.

Ah to be 22 again. I knew so much back then, to bad I forgot most of it as I got older.;)

Skyline
03-21-2008, 15:39
What you suggest can be done quietly without any posts, fuss or threats of retaliation here. Those who wish to forward information about what these individuals have done and their identies to your friends who own business farther north are not prohibited from doing so. Maybe you should do that now, rather than post.

If I was in the Hiawassee area and knew who these guys were or had the time to investigate, I probably would. I only made a recommendation that one or more persons in the area do so. As you just did, sort of . . .

Jack Tarlin
03-21-2008, 15:41
Blister pretty much nailed it.

I don't smoke anymore, but I did for years, and probably did so more than once in a place I shouldn't have.

And it was wrong.

If it's a no-smoking room, you don't smoke there, period. And if you want to get high in a motel room, well, that's YOUR risk.

I kinda hope these folks ARE identified and outed. The only way to put a stop to this b******t is when people realize their actions cause consequences. Speaking as someone who was planning to take advantage of the hiker rate at the Holiday Inn in a few days, this sort of thing can really piss you off.

If anyone finds out who these ass-clowns are, I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with naming them.

They need to go home.

emerald
03-21-2008, 15:44
If I owned a business along the AT, I believe I'd establish relationships with business owners who'd keep me informed as to who's headed my way and I'd do the same for them. Of course, anyone with a need to know and a phone could likely find out all they'd desire with a single phone call.;)

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 15:48
The people at the Holiday Inn Express really go out of their way to accommodate hikers and there has been plenty of abuse, loud hikers partying till the early hours of the morning, pot smoking, dogs sneaked in, rooms trashed, etc. The discount wasn't deserved. Same thing for the one in Erwin.
why is being loud an abuse??? did not the hikers PAY for their room? Cannot they LIVE in their room?

Lone Wolf
03-21-2008, 15:50
why is being loud an abuse??? did not the hikers PAY for their room? Cannot they LIVE in their room?

you're just a young punk *******. you will not go far in life

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 15:51
Nope but just don't be surprised when the business owner chooses not to serve you or others like you. It is a free market, the owner has the right to establish the rules of his business, as a customer you have the choose to comply or take the business elsewhere.
or, because the system of business has become corrupt, you simply make the rules you would have through real negotiation, rather than a pick from a bunch of different hotels who offer the same selfish rules that serve them more than you but do differ in price, which DWM is suggesting is significant somehow.

that is, because the market has become something unfree, you simply make it free.

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 15:51
you're just a young punk *******. you will not go far in life
good thing you are my role model.

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 15:54
Blister pretty much nailed it.

I don't smoke anymore, but I did for years, and probably did so more than once in a place I shouldn't have.

And it was wrong.

If it's a no-smoking room, you don't smoke there, period. And if you want to get high in a motel room, well, that's YOUR risk.

I kinda hope these folks ARE identified and outed. The only way to put a stop to this b******t is when people realize their actions cause consequences. Speaking as someone who was planning to take advantage of the hiker rate at the Holiday Inn in a few days, this sort of thing can really piss you off.

If anyone finds out who these ass-clowns are, I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with naming them.

They need to go home.

why is no one criticizing the hotel owner for STEREOTYPING hikers??? why are you entitlement whiners upset that you now have to pay the same price as EVERYONE else for a room? quit crying. if you need a place to say, grow some balls and camp on the trail, you know, what you came to do, supposedly.

whaaaaa, waaaaa, baaaa, baaaaa,

Freeleo
03-21-2008, 15:54
would you like a roll with you T

Hooch
03-21-2008, 15:56
why is being loud an abuse??? did not the hikers PAY for their room? Cannot they LIVE in their room?Because people in the rooms adjacent to theirs may be trying to rest. Just because someone pays for their room at a hotel, doesn't give them the right to do as they please there. Owners have the right to establish rules of expected behavior and decency. If people staying there volutarily choose to ignore said rules, then they deserve what they have coming to them. I'm with Jack, I would have no problem with people like that being identified so they can face the consequences of their actions.

whitefoot_hp
03-21-2008, 15:59
Because people in the rooms adjacent to theirs may be trying to rest. Just because someone pays for their room at a hotel, doesn't give them the right to do as they please there. Owners have the right to establish rules of expected behavior and decency. If people staying there volutarily choose to ignore said rules, then they deserve what they have coming to them. I'm with Jack, I would have no problem with people like that being identified so they can face the consequences of their actions.
and i am sure those folks can care less.

but why does someone who is loud have to conform to one who is quiet? would it be any different if we said the quiet must conform to the loud?

why does one get the benefit of the doubt?

(and if someone is trying to rest, perhaps they could go home, or somewhere where they are not sharing a building with a hundred people)

Jack Tarlin
03-21-2008, 16:05
Um, question to Whitefoot:

If a motel owner or manager decides to take action against people who break the rules at his business, or break the laws of his town or state, then why does he owe them anything?

And if LOTS of people in a certain group (like hikers, unfortunately) behave likewise, then why should this owner or manager do them any favors?

Hikers get stereotyped, Whitefoot, because a lot of them are jerks.

If you spent more time on the Trail, you wouldn't dispute this.

Right now, you're running your mouth on a subject you know next to nothing about.

You got a thousand posts, bub.

How many miles on the A.T. does this translate to? :-?

Willing to bet it ain't many.

Hooch
03-21-2008, 16:07
and i am sure those folks can care less.

but why does someone who is loud have to conform to one who is quiet? would it be any different if we said the quiet must conform to the loud?

why does one get the benefit of the doubt?

(and if someone is trying to rest, perhaps they could go home, or somewhere where they are not sharing a building with a hundred people)Obviously, you're missing the point. This is not about money or discounts. It's about reputations. Hikers, on the whole, have a pretty good rep, if you ask me. But like other baskets, one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. And I'm sure that you're right, the people who behaved so abhorrently probably aren't intelligent enough or have enough decency to care. And that's a shame.

As for why people "have to conform", when you're a guest, paying or not, most places have certain expectations of their guests. They are usually expected to behave in a manner that is respectful to others, including respecting other's right to privacy and being able to rest. People who are staying at hotels usually are doing so because they're away from home, and hence, unable to go home at that particular time. Like I said in another post, I'm sure that you don't allow guests to **** on your carpet or on your kitchen table. Why don't they? Because it's a matter of respect to the caretaker of the facility. The same applies to people staying in a hotel/motel/hostel. When you're there, you're a guest, so you should respect the rules of those who own/run the establishment.

Lone Wolf
03-21-2008, 16:07
he's just a troll. a bad one at that. he doesn't hike or do trail maintenance

Tin Man
03-21-2008, 16:08
and i am sure those folks can care less.

but why does someone who is loud have to conform to one who is quiet? would it be any different if we said the quiet must conform to the loud?

why does one get the benefit of the doubt?

(and if someone is trying to rest, perhaps they could go home, or somewhere where they are not sharing a building with a hundred people)

Last I checked a hotel is mainly about the beds. It is a place to rest and sleep. Unless you have a suite, there is no living room, there is a sleeping room - that's what the beds are for. And people do not sleep on the same schedule. Some sleep days, some nights. So if you are not quiet, then expect the same from your neighbor when you want to sleep. Or is the whole bed thing too difficult a concept for you to grasp?

Tin Man
03-21-2008, 16:09
he's just a troll. a bad one at that. he doesn't hike or do trail maintenance

bad and not very bright

Lone Wolf
03-21-2008, 16:09
Last I checked a hotel is mainly about the beds. It is a place to rest and sleep. Unless you have a suite, there is no living room, there is a sleeping room - that's what the beds are for. And people do not sleep on the same schedule. Some sleep days, some nights. So if you are not quiet, then expect the same from your neighbor when you want to sleep. Or is the whole bed thing too difficult a concept for you to grasp?

just ignore the idiot

Hooch
03-21-2008, 16:12
why is no one criticizing the hotel owner for STEREOTYPING hikers??? why are you entitlement whiners upset that you now have to pay the same price as EVERYONE else for a room? quit crying. if you need a place to say, grow some balls and camp on the trail, you know, what you came to do, supposedly.

whaaaaa, waaaaa, baaaa, baaaaa,Look, you're obviously too young, not intelligent enough and don't have enough life experience to understand what commonly accepted standards of decent behavior are. You just like to argue for the sake of arguement. Get back to us in about 20 years and we'll talk. My guess is that your tongue wouldn't be as fast to argue in person as your fingers are on the internet.

Lone Wolf
03-21-2008, 16:14
Look, you're obviously too young, not intelligent enough and don't have enough life experience to understand what commonly accepted standards of decent behavior are. You just like to argue for the sake of arguement. Get back to us in about 20 years and we'll talk. My guess is that your tongue wouldn't be as fast to argue in person as your fingers are on the internet.

ignore it. don't reply to it

Tin Man
03-21-2008, 16:15
just ignore the idiot

yup, he is even more of an idiot on the politicial forums

A-Train
03-21-2008, 16:15
(and if someone is trying to rest, perhaps they could go home, or somewhere where they are not sharing a building with a hundred people)

Do you realize how foolish and inconsiderate this sounds??

Would you go into your local library, start screaming about a topic, or reading a book outloud, and then tell the folks who are reading quietely they should go home and read, since they don't like your disruption??

This is a respect issue, for folks around you. This is a major life lesson you clearly haven't grasped yet. It's not, f*** you, if you don't like my way, find some other way or deal with it.

Leave No Trace is applicable in all facets of life where people need to coexist. Resisting this will leave you with few or no allies in this world.

Hooch
03-21-2008, 16:17
yup, he is even more of an idiot on the politicial forumsWhitefoot an idiot? No ****in' way?! :rolleyes:

GGS2
03-21-2008, 16:32
Apparently some bad things happened to some of the laundry equipment (are there washers/dryers there?) AND...some folks were smoking pot in a room. Which they said wasn't so bad...but, they did it in a non-smoking room. ... Oh, and the woman also said something about there seeming to be a lot of clueless, middle-aged guys yogi'n laundry.

OP is about mostly LAUNDRY room abuse. Laundry equipment is expensive to maintain, repair and operate. Especially if not offset by a room rental, discount or no. And last I heard, cleaning a smoked up room to non-smoking standards is expensive. Steam cleaning, and in extreme cases, repainting and recarpeting, etc.

Seems to me this is not just about one group that went through. They were probably just the final straw. It was probably recognition that the increased laundry room expenses and room cleaning expenses were eating up the revenues from the hiker business. Easy to see the solution: no more discount.

I think that when some young, generally inconsiderate hikers come in off the trail to a full service establishment, they might cut loose a little, and maybe throw all their muddy stuff directly into the washing machines, and try to dry their dirty bags and stuff in the driers. This is how teenagers tend to act, unfortunately. They also tend to scoff at laws like pot smoking prohibitions. Justified? Not likely, on the whole. Parents tend to fume and pay for the damage their kids do in their own homes, remembering when they did the same. Business owners may see it as taking the bread out of their own families mouths.

Businesses like Holiday Inn Express have franchise standards they are obliged to live up to. That can be expensive, which is why they charge the rates they do. If you increase their expenses, they are likely to change their policies against you, justified or not. Not hard to understand. Getting young people to control themselves is more difficult.

doggiebag
03-21-2008, 16:35
Managing Game Griefers and Other Community Trolls (http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=weblog&id=355&wlid=6&cn=8)
Posted by Mark Dombeck, Ph.D. on Mon, Jan 28th 2008 (http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=weblog&id=355&wlid=6&cn=8)

an excerpt:

"Online communities such as Mental Help Net used to host (and will shortly host again I'm happy to announce) exist for a purpose. In Mental Help Net's case, that purpose is mutual support for people who are struggling with mental health and life event issues. People who come into the community to further the purpose of the community (e.g., to give and receive support) are called Members. People who come into the community and work against the purpose of the community are called Trolls. However, the term may alternatively come from the practice of trolling for fish (http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=457418) (e.g., placing bait into the water (e.g., the community) and waiting to see which fish (which members) will bite on it. In any case, the term troll applies best to people who are entering the community with the premeditated intention of committing mayhem. It is sometimes also applied to people who are legitimately seeking support, but who sometimes don't have the best social skills, or who decompensate and have angry yelling matches with other community members. These latter people aren't really trolls, but they do end up needing to be helped to reconstitute themselves for the safety of the community as a whole.
As the wired article sagely points out, game griefers are present to play a game but it is not the same game as everyone else in the community is playing. The same can be said for the community troll, who may be playing "I'm right, you're wrong" when everyone else is playing "lets all get along". This disparity in motivations between members and griefers/trolls makes griefers/trolls fascinating to many non trolls. Just the audacity of their behavior grabs attention for one thing. Then there are secondary motivations. Some people identify with the trolls, while others identify with the law enforcement apparatus that punishes the trolls. I'm sure there are other motives too, but there is one constant and that is that anyone who pays attention to the troll loses..."

Dances with Mice
03-21-2008, 17:01
or, because the system of business has become corrupt, you simply make the rules you would have through real negotiation, rather than a pick from a bunch of different hotels who offer the same selfish rules that serve them more than you but do differ in price, which DWM is suggesting is significant somehow.Ummm, Sparky...
if you knew about the other hotels in Hiawassee we could talk. But you really don't know what you're talking about. Again.

Adios, I'm out the door. Buying Heet at the first gas station then next stop is Hogpen Gap. Later, y'all.

Appalachian Tater
03-21-2008, 17:26
but why does someone who is loud have to conform to one who is quiet?Ears.

would it be any different if we said the quiet must conform to the loud?That's called a hostel, a hotel is the opposite.

Cindy from Indy
03-21-2008, 17:58
but why does someone who is loud have to conform to one who is quiet? Because a motel room is PAID for by people who what to rest.

would it be any different if we said the quiet must conform to the loud? This statement just shows that you are an instigator and immature.

why does one get the benefit of the doubt? Because the rooms are PAID for and it is assumed it will NOT be loud so that people can rest.

(and if someone is trying to rest, perhaps they could go home, or somewhere where they are not sharing a building with a hundred people)?Or, perhaps, if YOU do not want to rest, why are you ignorant enough to pay hard earned cash for a motel room filled with people who want to rest?!

Question to whitefoot....Would you smoke pot in a non-smoking motel room in a town along the A.T. in a state and country that outlaws marijuana?

Wedge1173
03-21-2008, 18:02
Parents need to stop being their children's friends and start parenting again. One thing I learned from my parents is that there are consequences for my actions. It seems that is something that has been lost on the Millenials. And I work around them everyday.

Jaybird62
03-21-2008, 18:07
this business obviously did not know much about hikers... what is so bad about smoke in a room?
Nah dude it aint like the people running the place are trying to " put down the smoker" , they do have a business to run, so legally in this country that we all live in, they have to be careful. They did even mention that it would not have been a problem had it been a smoking room-either way I hope they realize what they have done and somehow try to purge the bad situation. Although I have never thru hiked, the small sections of the trail I have done have taught me so many things, so we can only hope that these folks will think about what has taken place, and somehow try to "right" their "wrong".

Lost My Mind
03-21-2008, 18:19
The thread reads better if you put Whitefoot on the ignore list. But then, most of the threads do.;)

Pony
03-21-2008, 18:20
He just started a thread in sensitive trail subjects about restricting access to the trail to certain people because they left trash at a shelter and filled up the privy. What's the difference between being disrespectful at a shelter as opposed to a hotel?

Appalachian Tater
03-21-2008, 18:20
state and country that outlaws marijuana?
Which is totally retarded in the first place.

Appalachian Tater
03-21-2008, 18:24
The thread reads better if you put Whitefoot on the ignore list. But then, most of the threads do.;)He hasn't even posted on this thread in a while. God forbid somebody should actually have to think occasionally without getting mad at somebody for making them do it.

astrogirl
03-21-2008, 18:24
If they would actually clean smoking rooms then they would stay in them. That's why I never did when I smoked cigs. ;)

Yep, you're right about that one. They don't even *try*.

Lost My Mind
03-21-2008, 18:28
He hasn't even posted on this thread in a while. God forbid somebody should actually have to think occasionally without getting mad at somebody for making them do it.

I don't have a problem thinking. What I don't need is someone telling me how to think or why any opinon other than theirs is wrong. Always open to a good discussion or debate, but sometimes these threads tend to beat a dead horse.

Kind of like some of the meetings where I work:-?

troglobil
03-21-2008, 18:29
(and if someone is trying to rest, perhaps they could go home, or somewhere where they are not sharing a building with a hundred people)

You are frigging brilliant. Why go to a hotel and rent a bed to sleep in if you want to rest?

CaseyB
03-21-2008, 18:40
It's hard to imagine them being herded like sheep. Baaaad analogy.

:DBest post on this otherwise long-useless thread so far.

Smile
03-21-2008, 18:43
nevermind.

Skidsteer
03-21-2008, 20:09
He just started a thread in sensitive trail subjects about restricting access to the trail to certain people because they left trash at a shelter and filled up the privy. What's the difference between being disrespectful at a shelter as opposed to a hotel?

Not a cotton-pickin' thing.

Crazy Larry #1
03-21-2008, 20:46
It's a shame. What's worse is the hotel is doing that to so many because of a few. It will just cost them $. I was planning on Cloud 9 anyway. They seem much nicer and the fish looks pretty damn good.

;)
Holiday Inn will get by just fine without the discounting hikers........

Crazy Larry #1
03-21-2008, 20:49
what if there were no sex rooms for people who dont want to sleep atop the semen of others? further, what if there were 'no anal sex' rooms, in case you do not want to sleep after homosexuals? considering all of the nasty stuff that goes on in hotel rooms, for you fools and these owners to be outraged about a little smoke demonstrates your appetite for extreme delusion and lack of understanding of the world. people are not obligating to follow you into the black hole of delusion.
Yes. obey the gray headed men of fifty years ago. anyhow, i was referring more to the 'acceptable behavior' norms that other social fascists in here are citing. Like using laundry 'appropriately" ( none of us even know the details here) but that does not hold back the sea of the self righteous.
well why don't you just boil the pot instead of stirring it a little?

max patch
03-21-2008, 20:59
what if there were no sex rooms for people who dont want to sleep atop the semen of others? further, what if there were 'no anal sex' rooms, in case you do not want to sleep after homosexuals? considering all of the nasty stuff that goes on in hotel rooms, for you fools and these owners to be outraged about a little smoke demonstrates your appetite for extreme delusion and lack of understanding of the world. people are not obligating to follow you into the black hole of delusion.


Wingfoot needs to be a moderator here. He'd know how to handle this guy.

Skidsteer
03-21-2008, 21:16
Have a cup of coffee, tic.

notorius tic
03-21-2008, 21:28
I will skid lets have 1 togther

Skidsteer
03-21-2008, 21:51
I will skid lets have 1 togther

Okey Doke buddy. We'll do that. :sun

fiddlehead
03-21-2008, 22:56
It was only a matter of time.

This kind of thing happens all over the trail as well as all over the world.

People who cater to travellers/hikers get burned out from the unceasing demands over the years and after a while, they either stop the favored treatment (that's what happened in this case) or sell, or learn to live with it.

Reminds me of a time i was travelling in Columbia (or Ecudor) and met these German travellers. We were smoking in their room (common place to smoke) and they had this huge pile of garbage in a corner of their room. WE asked why and they said they always pick a corner when they first get their room as the garbage corner and just throw things in that direction.

I used to not care about trashing a room, especially when i was young. I learned about respect and trying to keep a room (especially on or near a long distance trail) nice and leave it neat will help install good will between the owners and future hikers. It is a good thing for all of us to do.

You cannot hang these guys for smokin a little pot in their room. Do you know how many people smoke pot in their rooms? I'll tell you if the word gets out that the Hiawasee Holiday Inn made such a big deal out of THAT, they would lose more business than the hikers bring in. Guaranteed!

Show me a hostel that has been opened more than 25 years on the trail. There are probably not more than 5% of them. Hikers are very demanding and cause extra work for these kinds of places. Discounts will disappear first, then someday hikers will stop being welcomed there. (not for pot smoking, but for trashing rooms, causing loud noises, using the hotel's washers and driers or whatever for their own stinking clothes instead of going to a laundromat, generally stinking up the place.

These guys (or girls?) were probably young, possibly one of the first times they had a hotel room where they could let loose a bit, and any hotel owner has probably seen it before from the general public, not just hikers.

It was only a matter of time before they realized that hikers just aren't worth the extra trouble to offer them a discount.

I can easily think of 4 or 5 hostels that have shut down because hikers are too demanding and troublesome. And why places like Rusty's has to have tons of rules posted all over the place.

Frosty
03-22-2008, 00:31
But, if there's anything learned from the Port Clinton Massarcree of 2007 it's that there 'aint no justice like angry mob justice!What I learned to my amazement was that people can break onto someones property, puke and vomit, and others will defend their "right" to act this way, and rationalize it as being okay to do.

I understand in theory that there are people who cannot accept that they have responsiblities and that the world does not revolve around them, but it still comes as a shock when faced with incidents of it actually happening, and the people that rise to the defense of such behavior.

CaseyB
03-22-2008, 01:05
#1)
Damn, I can't believe you guys are still arguing about this ****. Seems to me that some of the folk who are constantly decrying the 'wussification' and 'overhostelizing' of the AT are the first to call foul when some trail service provider gets mad at the hikers.
It's not that big of a deal, boys & girls, some hotel owner has just recently gotten a realistic idea of who their hiker customers really are. Why should hikers get a discount anyway? Because they stay 7 to a room? Perhaps because they smell and tip worse? Wash clothes in the sink? Party like hell because they are on a 6-month 'vacation'? If I had a hotel in a trail town, I would charge hikers more for the PITA factor.

#2)
Internet posse attacks are wrong, dumb, and without fail only know half the story. Back off that junk and get a job.

Almost There
03-22-2008, 01:49
PC version of a well known statement:

Arguing on the internet is like putting on face paint, big shoes and capering under the Big Top...at the end of the day your both clowns!

Crazy Larry #1
03-22-2008, 06:02
PC version of a well known statement:

Arguing on the internet is like putting on face paint, big shoes and capering under the Big Top...at the end of the day your both clowns!
I wonder if I suffer from that?????

orangebug
03-22-2008, 07:55
PC version of a well known statement:

Arguing on the internet is like putting on face paint, big shoes and capering under the Big Top...at the end of the day your both clowns!Well said. Amazing we have 6 pages on this topic.

mrc237
03-22-2008, 07:59
I was once checked in at a Marriot in of all places Charlotte N. Carolina where tabacco is KING. The hotel has a no smoking rule for the entire property. I was with a travel club of 40+ men and we had a suite for party central and of course smokers disreguarded the rules. We were told by a Mgr that we were liable for the cost of the cleaning for the suite to the tune of $250.00 we were not discount customers and we were spending quite a bit of $ in the hotel bars and restaurants and thought the hotel would reconsider the cost. The price stood and we paid. They had the evidence photos of butts around the suite and in toilets they also fined some members for smoking in there own rooms. I think that when a housekeeper smells smoke in the room they are required to call security to collect evidence. Surprised that HI dose not have a like policy.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 08:24
I have a hard time believing that they smoked pot and did anything besides ate Cheetos. Are you sure that they weren't drunk too?

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-22-2008, 08:31
#1)
Damn, I can't believe you guys are still arguing about this ****. Seems to me that some of the folk who are constantly decrying the 'wussification' and 'overhostelizing' of the AT are the first to call foul when some trail service provider gets mad at the hikers.
It's not that big of a deal, boys & girls, some hotel owner has just recently gotten a realistic idea of who their hiker customers really are. Why should hikers get a discount anyway? Because they stay 7 to a room? Perhaps because they smell and tip worse? Wash clothes in the sink? Party like hell because they are on a 6-month 'vacation'? If I had a hotel in a trail town, I would charge hikers more for the PITA factor.

#2)
Internet posse attacks are wrong, dumb, and without fail only know half the story. Back off that junk and get a job.You've pretty much summed up my feelings on this matter.... if I owned a normal hotel (not a hostel or a hotel designed to be hiker friendly), I would do everything in my power to discourage hikers from staying there. About nine years ago, I had a motel owner and his wife ask us to leave after discovering we were hikers. It was the only motel in that tiny town (about 13 miles off the AT). I was able to talk them into letting us stay by taking them out to our vehicle and showing them it was not trashed and assuring them only He-Dino and I would be staying in the room and that we did not drink or smoke anything. They told me several horrible stories - beer spilled all over, cigarette burns on beds-carpet-furniture, food everywhere - even on the walls, sinks clogged up with mud, newly cleaned carpet that had to be re-cleaned, guys skinny dipping in the pool and getting loud at 4 AM......

Internet posses are wrong. Running over to the offenders TJ and posting trash in their guestbook is wrong. Trashing them at length in a forum is wrong. Hunting them down on the trail to let them know of you disgust is wrong. However, warning providers up the trail about their disregard for other people's rights and property is probably a good idea. As I said earlier in this discussion, if we want to be welcomed as group, we need to show providers that we are serious about self-regulating. Doing things like what Smile did is one way - warning providers of potential problems is another. ALDHA's endanger services campaign is another response to this problem.

A law of physics applies here IMO - For every action, there is an equal and opposition reaction (aka - actions have consequences). Thru-hiking doesn't suspend natural laws.

DavidNH
03-22-2008, 09:42
First off, I will say I have not read this entire thread as it has gotten so long but have read the a buch of the posts..first couple pages or so.

I hope those hikers who smoked in a non smoking room got heavily fined. I know other motels that do that. That is increadibly disrespectful what they did. It is completely understandable that the motel will or has taken away the hiker discount. It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the bunch.

I have often heard how many say that the best thing about the AT is the people. Yet there are many hikers (be they thru hikers or long distance hikers) who seem to show a callous disregard for others. Smoking pot, smoking in a non smoking room, even smoking at a shelter without first asking if someone minds (and many would mind, I sure do!!!) is incredibly rude.

Those hikers who are respectful and do care, and I still believe they are in a majority, need to speek out against those who aren't. This hyoh and live and let live philosophy of so many can only go so far. What you do around others DOES matter.

DavidNH

Sly
03-22-2008, 09:46
From another list....

Thought I'd heads-up
anyone who might want to know that....

Apparently some bad things happened to some of the laundry equipment
(are there washers/dryers there?) AND...some folks were smoking pot in a room.

Apparently some bad things happened? Lots of leeway there. Perhaps you should get the story as it happened before posting.

Jim Adams
03-22-2008, 09:53
umm, if you are in the middle of town, it could be obvious, freeleo.

i say if you open up your business to the public, you should expect a variety of behavior. this is supposed to be a free country, and some people actually act that way.

I have posted soooo much on WB about the loss of our personal freedoms and how I am against it but......you just need to grow up! Yours have been some of the most inconsiderate and stupid statements that I've ever read.:mad:

geek

Lone Wolf
03-22-2008, 10:04
I have posted soooo much on WB about the loss of our personal freedoms and how I am against it but......you just need to grow up! Yours have been some of the most inconsiderate and stupid statements that I've ever read.:mad:

geek

he's a dick. pay him no mind

Skyline
03-22-2008, 10:55
Apparently some bad things happened? Lots of leeway there. Perhaps you should get the story as it happened before posting.


If the hikers we've been discussing would contribute to this thread themselves from the next trail town, perhaps we could get the "other" side. So far, the silence from them is deafening.

Nearly Normal
03-22-2008, 11:03
"i say if you open up your business to the public, you should expect a variety of behavior. this is supposed to be a free country, and some people actually act that way."


There is a big difference between acting free and like a dern fool.
In places, acting a little too freely and without regard could earn you a jack-o-lantern smile.

Sly
03-22-2008, 11:26
If the hikers we've been discussing would contribute to this thread themselves from the next trail town, perhaps we could get the "other" side. So far, the silence from them is deafening.

You're assuming they moniter WB. I've gleaned the thread and haven't seen any names, so as of now, we're speaking about boggie men. Maybe the Inn should speal up instead of going on here say.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-22-2008, 11:29
Sly, you have hiked as much or more than anyone here - certainly more than anyone participating in this thread. What, if anything, do you feel the hiking community response should be to misbehavior while using services along the trail?

Sly
03-22-2008, 11:34
Sly, you have hiked as much or more than anyone here - certainly more than anyone participating in this thread. What, if anything, do you feel the hiking community response should be to misbehavior while using services along the trail?

It's really not up to the internet hiking community to do anything, it's up to the on trail providers.

jlb2012
03-22-2008, 11:42
Unfortunately there are problems with getting on trail providers networked enough so that they can pass on reports of misconduct. The biggest problem that I see is legal restrictions on communications between competitors - ex need to avoid any appearance of price fixing etc.

Lone Wolf
03-22-2008, 11:52
Sly, you have hiked as much or more than anyone here - certainly more than anyone participating in this thread. What, if anything, do you feel the hiking community response should be to misbehavior while using services along the trail?

nothing. the so-called "Endangered Services Campaign" doesn't work.

10-K
03-22-2008, 12:04
but what if all inn keepers band together and decide what they are and are not obligated to do, with out consulting the customer??
(which is a tad closer to reality than your simplistic scenario)

and as a result, come out with silly rules, like non smoking, simply as marketing ploys? am i supposed to care about the profits of a man that teams up with other businesses and does not consult me?

Youth is wasted on the young...

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-22-2008, 12:05
It's really not up to the internet hiking community to do anything, it's up to the on trail providers.excellent point. How do you feel we could get the trail providers networked enough to do this?

BTW, LW, I agree that the Endangered Service campaign tactic is pretty useless against abuse of service providers. The same hikers that are prone to abuse services are the hikers that don't think the rules apply to them - the almighty thru-hiker - and therefore ALDHA's suggestions don't apply either. What it does do IMO is get some of us to go the extra mile in being trail ambassadors to try to make up for those who are rude and arrogant.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 12:10
If you all would partake in said "pot" this thread would be much friendlier.;)

take-a-knee
03-22-2008, 12:29
If you all would partake in said "pot" this thread would be much friendlier.;)

Yes, and our rusty camaros would need all manner of repairs...after all, first things first.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 12:35
That is good!
Yes, and our rusty camaros would need all manner of repairs...after all, first things first.

emerald
03-22-2008, 13:04
If the hikers we've been discussing would contribute to this thread themselves from the next trail town, perhaps we could get the "other" side. So far, the silence from them is deafening.

More with every post this thread is beginning to resemble an earlier thread. It's not in the interest of the hikers who are the subject of this thread to reply, nor are they obliged to do so.

They do not owe WhiteBlaze an explanation or an apology for their behavior. People who demand apologies rarely see real contrition. Were they to post, they would only be berated.:datz What these hikers should do is mind their manners and shut-up and hike!


How do you feel we could get the trail providers networked enough to do this?

That's not a function of WhiteBlaze, ALDHA or ATC. It would be up to the service providers themselves. As I pointed out yesterday, if, for instance, Ron Haven wanted information about these individuals, he could probably get it with a single phone call. Aren't guests required to provide proper identification before renting a room?

JAK
03-22-2008, 13:09
What does a Holiday Inn Express have to do with hikers in the first place?

Sleepy the Arab
03-22-2008, 13:26
What does a Holiday Inn Express have to do with hikers in the first place?

I think "hot tub" and "free breakfast" can sum that up.

JAK
03-22-2008, 14:06
yeah. good answer. I guess.
sucks to be civilized

When I was younger though, and travelling all over the country for sailing races, never stayed in a motel. Rarely ate at restraunts. Spent half my money on boats and booze, and squandered the rest. By the time I got out of it I noticed more and more the young kids coming up were staying in motels, and sometimes the government in their infinite wisdom even paid them to do so, like it was the only way they know to encourage recreation and sport. Freekin' kids these days. Freekin' government. I should get back into sailing again just to kick their ass. Probably just get myself arrest as a vagrant.

Blissful
03-22-2008, 14:15
Sad, sad stuff, but not entirely surprising.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-22-2008, 14:39
......That's not a function of WhiteBlaze, ALDHA or ATC. It would be up to the service providers themselves. As I pointed out yesterday, if, for instance, Ron Haven wanted information about these individuals, he could probably get it with a single phone call. Aren't guests required to provide proper identification before renting a room?While Ron Haven will likely see this and could call, what about the Holiday Inn in Erwin? How would they know to make the call? This is why I feel the hiking community - not WB, but the community as a whole - could help network the providers.

JAK
03-22-2008, 14:49
I think there are way way bigger issues to deal with than this. I am not saying people shouldn't be concerned, or that commercial interests such as Holiday Inn Express should take care of themselves. I'm just saying that there must be plenty of non-commercial interests out there where people like yourself could probably make a bigger difference, and are. Trail maintainers for one, seem to be doing an excellent job. There is more and more awareness for environmental issues, and better stewardship against such things as overdevelopment. Not saying its not an issue. Just saying it gets too much attention, and that it is more or less compared to many other things a self limiting and self correcting problem.

Appalachian Tater
03-22-2008, 14:51
Service providers already know there are "A-Hole Hikers".

If there is a sense of "thru-hiker entitlement", then giving hikers discounts promotes that sense. A feeling of entitlement or superiority frequently leads to selfish behavior.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 14:53
Yep. I totally agree. What a waste of a thread. I could see it used as an example of what not to do but I think it's went a bit far at this point. My god stay in a different hotel or hostel. What does HI do for the trail that you hiked into town on?
I think there are way way bigger issues to deal with than this. I am not saying people shouldn't be concerned, or that commercial interests such as Holiday Inn Express should take care of themselves. I'm just saying that there must be plenty of non-commercial interests out there where people like yourself could probably make a bigger difference, and are. Trail maintainers for one, seem to be doing an excellent job. There is more and more awareness for environmental issues, and better stewardship against such things as overdevelopment. Not saying its not an issue. Just saying it gets too much attention, and that it is more or less compared to many other things a self limiting and self correcting problem.

Jack Tarlin
03-22-2008, 14:56
Easy for you to say, JAK, you're in Canada.

I'm planning to be in Hiawassee in a few days, and the hiker discount at the Inn would have been a nice treat.

Not anymore.

And you're wrong, JAK, about this sort of problem being "self-correcting." If people behaved properly in the first place, we wouldn't be having this discussion, so we can't count on people fixing this themselves. People that act like thoughtless ass****s don't self-correct, JAK. That's why this sort of thing NEEDS to be discussed publicly, and if bad actors can be identified, then that's a good thing. Cuz THAT's the sort of correction that can accomplish something........otherwise, these folks will continue this sort of thing for the next 6 months, screwing things up for countless hikers who are following behind them.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 15:02
There are going t be that type of people no matter what we do. It is HI's bad. They are the ones who will lose a lot of business. In my opinion they mad a bad business decision because of a few [email protected]$%&*%s!

JAK
03-22-2008, 15:02
Amen. Not to criticize F.Dino, because she means well and I know where she stands on the larger and more important issues. But I think it would be better if the rest of us posted more and took more of an interest in hiking the AT in relation to nature and sustainability and as an extention of ongoing healthy living and healthy lifestyles and relationships; and talked less about hiking the AT as just another extension of our reckless consumerism and the various places where that inevitably leads us.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 15:05
I second that. Nature is a beautiful thing. Enjoy it!Don't worry so much about the HI!
Amen. Not to criticize F.Dino, because she means well and I know where she stands on the larger and more important issues. But I think it would be better if the rest of us posted more and took more of an interest in hiking the AT in relation to nature and sustainability and as an extention of ongoing healthy living and healthy lifestyles and relationships; and talked less about hiking the AT as just another extension of our reckless consumerism and the various places where that inevitably leads us.

JAK
03-22-2008, 15:07
Easy for you to say, JAK, you're in Canada.

I'm planning to be in Hiawassee in a few days, and the hiker discount at the Inn would have been a nice treat.

Not anymore.

And you're wrong, JAK, about this sort of problem being "self-correcting." If people behaved properly in the first place, we wouldn't be having this discussion, so we can't count on people fixing this themselves. People that act like thoughtless ass****s don't self-correct, JAK. That's why this sort of thing NEEDS to be discussed publicly, and if bad actors can be identified, then that's a good thing. Cuz THAT's the sort of correction that can accomplish something........otherwise, these folks will continue this sort of thing for the next 6 months, screwing things up for countless hikers who are following behind them.So don't stay there Jack. Or stay there and spend a few extra bucks. So what. What difference does it make in the grand scheme of things compared to far more important issues, like whether or not your favourite sections of the trail will be overdeveloped, or what the fallout will be from climate change, and the economic pressures which will result from it. The Holiday Inn Express is not the enemy, but it should be among the least of your worries. There are far far more important issues to talk about, and you should know this better than I. You have hiked the AT. I haven't.

Why do you hike the AT? Surely not to preserve the Holiday Inn Express.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 15:08
What he said!

Jack Tarlin
03-22-2008, 15:11
Oh, spare me the holistic, whole wheat, peace-and-love bull****. This has NOTHING to do with "healthy living" or "reckless consumerism" or " nature and sustainability."

It has to do with people being rude and inconsiderate and selfish.

And as to the people who speculate that the Holiday Inn would lose a lot of business, well has it occured to you that maybe they don't really WANT hiker business anymore? And how would you feel if the dozens of other business establishments along the Trail that presently cater to hikers were to adopt the same attitude? Would this be good for the hiking community? Would it make it nicer for hikers if everyone felt this way?

Um, no, it wouldn't.

When a business that has taken care of hikers, and has treated them well for years all of a sudden decides they don't really care for the hiking community, this is indeed a very important thing, and I don't think it's right to minimize the importance of this.

Jack Tarlin
03-22-2008, 15:15
Um, why do I hike the A.T. JAK?

That's my business.

Do you even hike it at all?

I find it pretty amusing that the guy who is so cavalier about this is writing from New Brunswick.

Maybe if JAK actually spent any time out here, and actually had his trip affected by idiot behavior, then maybe he'd feel differently.

Oh, Jason, this applies to you, to.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 15:15
Is it bad to care about our Earth for the future?

You answered your own question about the HI. If they don't want our business then I say that we support someone who does. There will always be people who want to cater to the hiking community. Most people are smart enough to know that a few idiots don't set the tone for the rest of us.

Man, I don't know you but that's a pretty grim outlook you have there.
Oh, spare me the holistic, whole wheat, peace-and-love bull****. This has NOTHING to do with "healthy living" or "reckless consumerism" or " nature and sustainability."

It has to do with people being rude and inconsiderate and selfish.

And as to the people who speculate that the Holiday Inn would lose a lot of business, well has it occured to you that maybe they don't really WANT hiker business anymore? And how would you feel if the dozens of other business establishments along the Trail that presently cater to hikers were to adopt the same attitude? Would this be good for the hiking community? Would it make it nicer for hikers if everyone felt this way?

Um, no, it wouldn't.

When a business that has taken care of hikers, and has treated them well for years all of a sudden decides they don't really care for the hiking community, this is indeed a very important thing, and I don't think it's right to minimize the importance of this.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 15:18
I've put in six of the last eight weeks out backpaking so I suppose that I could classify myself as an avid backpacker. After hearing your view I would have to ask where your passion lays? Is it in getting a few dollar discount from corporate pigs or caring about the "big" picture. Sad stuff. Evidentally you need to hike more or find another way to vent that anger of yours.;)
Um, why do I hike the A.T. JAK?

That's my business.

Do you even hike it at all?

I find it pretty amusing that the guy who is so cavalier about this is writing from New Brunswick.

Maybe if JAK actually spent any time out here, and actually had his trip affected by idiot behavior, then maybe he'd feel differently.

Oh, Jason, this applies to you, to.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 15:19
P.S. If you let idiots bother you that much how do you make it in our world?

Appalachian Tater
03-22-2008, 15:20
I am not surprised at the poor behavior of hikers at the Holiday Inn Express considering the tantrums they throw on the internet.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 15:22
Go Tater! I think that I am defending myself for defending our environment and the socially challenged in our society. Look at our leader for Christ's sake.;)
I am not surprised at the poor behavior of hikers at the Holiday Inn Express considering the tantrums they throw on the internet.

Jack Tarlin
03-22-2008, 15:23
Um, it's not a question of whether or not our business is wanted.

Hikers are obvioulsy wanted there, Jason, or the place wouldn't have such a great reputation amongst hikers.

At least til now.

But what they DON'T want is people who dis-respect the place, don't care about rules or regulations, and who don't obey the law.

It is THESE folks who they don't want, and it is THESE folks who screw things up for other hikers.

Um, and Jason, please temper your snottiness......you think I need to hike more, eh?

In all likelihood, I've hiked more on purpose than you have in your whole life,

And while I'm glad you're such an experienced backpacker, I doubt you've been out on the A.T. for any great length of time. Otherwise, you wouldn't be so flippant about people who mess things up for other folks.

Everyone is an expert on the is Trail.......especially, it would seem, the folks who haven't done it. :rolleyes:

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-22-2008, 15:25
Jack, what role do you think the hiking community should take in rectifying such problems?

JAK
03-22-2008, 15:26
Um, why do I hike the A.T. JAK?

That's my business.

Do you even hike it at all?

I find it pretty amusing that the guy who is so cavalier about this is writing from New Brunswick.

Maybe if JAK actually spent any time out here, and actually had his trip affected by idiot behavior, then maybe he'd feel differently.

Oh, Jason, this applies to you, to.Perhaps the hiking is better up here because people up here don't make it their business.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-22-2008, 15:29
Guys, a friendly Dino reminder to slam ideas all you want, but don't slam the messenger. If it is getting too personal, go take a walk.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 15:31
That is a cute quote, Sir. Yes, you probably have been out more than me but I'm guessing that's because you have many years on me.? I have been backpacking for roughly 20 years. I would hope that let's me speak my mind. I haven't spent a lot of time on the AT. Most of my time has been in the wilderness.;) I agree that people shouldn't be idiots but at the same time I think it is silly to waste so much energy on them. My god there are people like that everywhere. I get frustrated with people's behavior every time I am around them. I am also looking at this from a business stand. If that's the choose that they make then it will only hurt the HI in the end. I don't think that the one is question is in a place that would support it if it weren't for us hiker trash. As far as you hiking enough, you sure got worked up very quickly over something petty. That can't be good on your ticker my friend!
Um, it's not a question of whether or not our business is wanted.

Hikers are obvioulsy wanted there, Jason, or the place wouldn't have such a great reputation amongst hikers.

At least til now.

But what they DON'T want is people who dis-respect the place, don't care about rules or regulations, and who don't obey the law.

It is THESE folks who they don't want, and it is THESE folks who screw things up for other hikers.

Um, and Jason, please temper your snottiness......you think I need to hike more, eh?

In all likelihood, I've hiked more on purpose than you have in your whole life,

And while I'm glad you're such an experienced backpacker, I doubt you've been out on the A.T. for any great length of time. Otherwise, you wouldn't be so flippant about people who mess things up for other folks.

Everyone is an expert on the is Trail.......especially, it would seem, the folks who haven't done it. :rolleyes:

Skyline
03-22-2008, 15:32
You're assuming they moniter WB. I've gleaned the thread and haven't seen any names, so as of now, we're speaking about boggie men. Maybe the Inn should speal up instead of going on here say.


True enough.

I'm thinking the AT grapevine being what it is, they've probably already heard about this thread, or soon will.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 15:34
I just read up on you. I am heading to Springer soon to walk north for a month. I reside in KY, the home of good Bourbon. May I drop a bottle off to you to calm those nerves?:)

JAK
03-22-2008, 15:35
Good point Dino. We should all focus on the issue.

Development and commercialization will always go hand in hand with recreation and environmental interests. There has to be a balance. I don't see why it should be considered so offensive to suggest that there are larger issues than the Holiday Inn Express. There is much at stake. Economic concerns have recieved too much attention for too long. We need to strike a balance, but we need to strike a better balance.

Let's focus on far more important issues than just these economic and perhaps social economic issues. That's all I'm saying.

Jack Tarlin
03-22-2008, 15:37
F.D.:

Good question.

For starters, I think all of the major A.T. Guidebooks should say something about this problem in the beginning of thier books, and I don't mean one short paragraph, either.

The Thru-Hikers Companion has 3 paragraphs on this issue; the Handbook has one. The new Guidebook, Appalachian Pages has about five sentences.
All of these books should say more about town behavior.

In short, it'd help if EVERY person who set out to thru-hike knew about this issue/problem well before the start of the trip.

Also, hikers need to look out for their friends and correct improper behavior when they see it. To see people behaving poorly and to do nothing accomplishes nothing.

Educational programs that publicize this problem (such as ALDHA's campaign dealing with Endangered Services) should be supported, especially by well-known hikers. When hikers act as though certain codes and standards don't apply to them, everyone loses.

And lastly, when there is an outrageous incident (like in Port Clinton last year), there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with publicizing the details. Some people will act like jerks forever, and the only possible thing that might alter their behavior is public shaming, or even shunning. When someone arrives at a hostel and gives their name and is told by the proprietor "Sorry, we have no room for you, your fame on the Trail precedes you", well THIS is the sort of thing that might make some folks wake up.

And sometimes, it's the ONLY thing that'll wake them up. People like this need to clean up their act or they need to go home.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-22-2008, 15:42
Jason, I'm betting the reason the HI pulled the plug on the thru-hiker rate was because thru-hikers have caused enough damage to offset the $$$'s they were bringing in. As Blister (a lady with years in the hospitality industry) posted earlier in this thread, the cost to clean up a non-smoking room after someone smokes in it it substantial. The cost to replace laundry equipment is substantial. The cost to clean mud and beer out of carpets, food from walls, etc. is substantial. Add that to lost revenue from other guest who are kept awake by partying hikers and it becomes in HI's best interests not to cater to hikers. Given their location, they don't need the thru-hiker business - they get plenty of people who come to see the wildflowers, waterfalls and leaf changes and who come to dayhike and engage in whitewater sports.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 15:43
I think that we all need to keep in mind that for most of us our hikes are vacations as well. Who amongst us can say that they have never cut up on a vacation? Do we need to be prim and proper every minute of every day. If so I don't want to hike with ya. Enjoy life a bit or die a very unhappy person. My god Jack I wish that I could have done 7 straight hikes of the AT. I would think that those would have made you a very care free happy person. Now I'm a bit worried that I will come home more anal-retentive than what I am now.;)

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 15:46
I agree. I am sure that the crunched numbers before such a decision was made. I am also sure that other hikers beside myself are not going to do business with them anymore because I am being grouped with a few misfits. I am a businessman as well so I know what it's like to weigh loses. That is all that I'm saying.
Jason, I'm betting the reason the HI pulled the plug on the thru-hiker rate was because thru-hikers have caused enough damage to offset the $$$'s they were bringing in. As Blister (a lady with years in the hospitality industry) posted earlier in this thread, the cost to clean up a non-smoking room after someone smokes in it it substantial. The cost to replace laundry equipment is substantial. The cost to clean mud and beer out of carpets, food from walls, etc. is substantial. Add that to lost revenue from other guest who are kept awake by partying hikers and it becomes in HI's best interests not to cater to hikers. Given their location, they don't need the thru-hiker business - they get plenty of people who come to see the wildflowers, waterfalls and leaf changes and who come to dayhike and engage in whitewater sports.

thestin
03-22-2008, 15:53
your both clowns

It's you're, not your. A contraction of "you are".

Not that I'm arguing or anything!:rolleyes:

Skyline
03-22-2008, 15:54
While Ron Haven will likely see this and could call, what about the Holiday Inn in Erwin? How would they know to make the call? This is why I feel the hiking community - not WB, but the community as a whole - could help network the providers.


As a practical matter, there could be a way to network the service providers using some kind of listserve such as the one that AT-L is patterned after. Not AT-L itself—but something like AT-L.

It would exist only for trail service providers (hostels, shuttlers, lodging, outfitters, etc.) who would sign up to receive a daily e-mail consisting of all posts during the previous 24 hours. Only said service providers would be able to post anything for distribution to the list.

In addition to posting info about the rare problem hiker, such a listserve could function to help each provider by sharing ideas about what works and what doesn't work in their particular enterprises. They could learn from each other. This list could also be used to post info about missing hikers, hikers with special medical needs who may be moving up the trail so providers can be prepared. Possibilities are many, way beyond being a place to warn providers about the rare troublemaker. We would all benefit--hiker and provider alike.

I have no idea how such things work, but here's the URL for the umbrella site AT-L exists under:

http://www.backcountry.net/

To the best of my recollection (I haven't subscribed to AT-L for a number of years) the man who runs this is named Ryan. As I recall, he's a pretty good guy and has contributed a lot to the communities of various long-distance trails.

I'm thinking he could point someone who wanted to run with this in the right direction.

JAK
03-22-2008, 15:54
I think your getting too personal again their Jason.

Jack has a point. My only point is that commercial interests tend to get overemphasized and demand too much attention. I think it could be argued that alot of bad behaviour in our society is a natural reaction to this, but I don't condone such behaviour. I'm not even saying that commercial interests reap what they sow. That is true to a large degree, but that is not my point here. I'm just saying that simpler living and simpler choices should be given a lot more bandwidth. By whom? By us of course.

Forget about the Holiday Inn Express. We should be more concerned with encouraging the hiker that chooses or at least attempts not to stay there to begin with. I'm not saying we should be better consumers and make better choices as consumers. I'm really saying we should stop being mere consumers, and try and aspire once again to some higher calling, like citizenship, and stewardship.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 16:00
Oh I'm done. I think that I've expressed myself. I get a bit passionate about our earth and hate when people act like it's not a big deal. I just hate to see someone take life so seriously. It's a good way to bring on a massive heart attack. I just offered some good bourbon to a man who says that he likes it. I can relate.;)

JAK
03-22-2008, 16:02
Something I think we can all agree on.

Better and more able citizenship and stewardship - our ultimate goal
"I trashed a Holiday Day Inn Express last night." - probably not the way to get there

Tin Man
03-22-2008, 16:03
And lastly, when there is an outrageous incident (like in Port Clinton last year), there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with publicizing the details. Some people will act like jerks forever, and the only possible thing that might alter their behavior is public shaming, or even shunning. When someone arrives at a hostel and gives their name and is told by the proprietor "Sorry, we have no room for you, your fame on the Trail precedes you", well THIS is the sort of thing that might make some folks wake up.

And sometimes, it's the ONLY thing that'll wake them up. People like this need to clean up their act or they need to go home.

Not lastly - most importantly! Sometimes people don't read the simple rules establishments post or don't care. Maybe they will care, and others will take note, if poor behavior is called out in public. People have to realize the trail and the establishments along the trail are NOT some sort of frat house, from the movie Animal House, where anything goes.

JAK
03-22-2008, 16:06
Oh I'm done. I think that I've expressed myself. I get a bit passionate about our earth and hate when people act like it's not a big deal. I just hate to see someone take life so seriously. It's a good way to bring on a massive heart attack. I just offered some good bourbon to a man who says that he likes it. I can relate.;)Do you know of any good trail guides or trail associations out there that don't first begin by telling us to shove something or other as far as we possibly can up our butts? :-?

:banana

JAK
03-22-2008, 16:09
Not lastly - most importantly! Sometimes people don't read the simple rules establishments post or don't care. Maybe they will care, and others will take note, if poor behavior is called out in public. People have to realize the trail and the establishments along the trail are NOT some sort of frat house, from the movie Animal House, where anything goes.I wouldn't say most importantly.
I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying it is a gross overstatement.

It is not our highest calling to be well behaved consumers.
We can do better than that.

JAK
03-22-2008, 16:11
We gotta aim a little higher folks! That's all I'm saying.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 16:17
Actually no. I had never thought of that. What a shame that's got to be that way. I don't know about you but I can credit my parents with teaching me how to act.
Do you know of any good trail guides or trail associations out there that don't first begin by telling us to shove something or other as far as we possibly can up our butts? :-?

:banana

JAK
03-22-2008, 16:22
Actually no. I had never thought of that. What a shame that's got to be that way. I don't know about you but I can credit my parents with teaching me how to act.Yeah I here you.

Personally I'm like you. I think trail guides and trail associations and other such authorities should perhaps begin by telling us to remove as much stuff as possible from up our butts before we do anything else. Most of us have way too much stuff accumulated up there from over the years. Back to the basics I say. Good behaviour is mostly just common sense and the golden rule, the way we were brought up. From there there is much work to be done, and we might as well just get on with it, and never mind the bull****.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 16:30
Yep. What you said.

JAK
03-22-2008, 16:30
Outfitters don't help either. Well before they start stuffing all their junk into the oversized and overbuilt packs they've sold folks, they've already stuffed amazing amounts of unneccessary and unwanted junk up peoples arses. Small wonder so many people, younger and abler folks I mean, think they need hiking sticks to make it down a trail these days.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 16:43
I can't knock my local outfitter. I would consider a few of their employees friends. I recently had one try their hardest to keep me from not spending money on something that he thought to be a waste. They have even sent me to our other local store on occasion. Rare, I know. We are lucky here. I usually try to support the "local" economy, be it here or on the trail.

solace
03-22-2008, 16:43
(and if someone is trying to rest, perhaps they could go home, or somewhere where they are not sharing a building with a hundred people)


MY GOD MAN! , WHY NOT JUST CRAWL UP UNDER A BAR STOOL FOR THE NITE FOR YOUR REST!?!?!

People go to a hotel to ACTUALLY rest! Mabye when you have hiked "some" miles and you want to rest, you will understand and appreciate this!

Perhaps your better off sleeping at someones farm.. I have a feeling youd fit right in...

Jack Tarlin
03-22-2008, 16:43
JAK:

With all due respect, until you've spent more time actually hiking on the A.T., you might want to refrain from telling folks that they are "overstating" things.

I've made this point before, but you don't seem to get it: You are writing from Canada. There are people right now, today, in Georgia, whose trips have been negatively impacted by the actions of other hikers. And folks who act like this just six days into the trip are gonna keep acting like that for the next six months.

Spend more time out here, and THEN tell us who is "overstating" their comments about the realities of life on the Trail.

Cuz right now, your comments, while obviously heartfelt, aren't really justified.

If you were actually out here, I assure you that you wouldn't treat this in such a light-hearted fashion.

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 16:46
You are so correct. I am an inexperienced idiot and I applaud your knowledge!:D
(and if someone is trying to rest, perhaps they could go home, or somewhere where they are not sharing a building with a hundred people)


MY GOD MAN! , WHY NOT JUST CRAWL UP UNDER A BAR STOOL FOR THE NITE FOR YOUR REST!?!?!

People go to a hotel to ACTUALLY rest! Mabye when you have hiked "some" miles and you want to rest, you will understand and appreciate this!

Perhaps your better off sleeping at someones farm.. I have a feeling youd fit right in...

Jack Tarlin
03-22-2008, 16:49
I dunno if you're an inexperienced idiot or not.

But I do know that Solace actually works in a hotel that is frequented by hikers, in other words, he actually knows what he's talking about here. :-?

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 16:53
It sounded to me that he was knocking hostels? Regardless, he acted as if I condoned this behavior. Forgive me for enjoying the company of the common folks that stay at the hostel. I guarantee that the treatment is much better than the majority of chain hotels.

JAK
03-22-2008, 16:53
Well the important point there which we all need to remember is people are people first and foremost. Of course we need places to buy stuff and places to stay now and then, but such places and products are not what makes the world go round. People and the greater things of nature are what makes the world go round. I like to support local mom and pop operations when I need to and when I can. But it is surprising where you might find mom and pop these days. Sometimes you find them working in the strangest places, even Walmart and REI and the Holiday Inn Express, but they are often as resourceful as ever and ever willing and able to be of assistance. More so, to put a smile on my face and warm my heart. As for "local". As you say, local is often found very conveniently located to wherever I happen to be at the time. :)

JAK
03-22-2008, 17:03
JAK:

With all due respect, until you've spent more time actually hiking on the A.T., you might want to refrain from telling folks that they are "overstating" things.

I've made this point before, but you don't seem to get it: You are writing from Canada. There are people right now, today, in Georgia, whose trips have been negatively impacted by the actions of other hikers. And folks who act like this just six days into the trip are gonna keep acting like that for the next six months.

Spend more time out here, and THEN tell us who is "overstating" their comments about the realities of life on the Trail.

Cuz right now, your comments, while obviously heartfelt, aren't really justified.

If you were actually out here, I assure you that you wouldn't treat this in such a light-hearted fashion.Point taken. I would still like to see more talk on environmental issues, but I guess when you up to you ass in alligators as the saying goes...

Actually that might be a bad analogy.
Probably should have left more of them swamps and alligators alone. :-?

Anyhow, I'm sure there are great works being done out there,
and like most great works, going unnoticed, and perhaps better for it.


Perhaps though, the message should not be...
"Behave yourselves, so that others may also"
but more along the lines of
"Behave yourselves, for there are great works to behold, and much work still to be done."

Might be a little more inspiring. That's all I'm really saying.

JAK
03-22-2008, 17:06
The Sons of Martha
Rudyard Kipling 1907
The sons of Mary seldom bother, for they have inherited
that good part;
But the Sons of Martha favour their Mother of the
careful soul and the troubled heart.
And because she lost her temper once, and because she
was rude to the Lord her Guest,
Her Sons must wait upon Mary's Sons, world without
end, reprieve, or rest.
It is their care in all the ages to take the buffet and
cushion the shock.
It is their care that the gear engages; it is their care that
the switches lock.
It is their care that the wheels run truly; it is their care
to embark and entrain,
Tally, transport, and deliver duly the Sons of Mary by
land and main.

They say to mountains, "Be ye removed." They say to
the lesser floods, "Be dry."
Under their rods are the rocks reproved-they are not
afraid of that which is high.
Then do the hill-tops shake to the summit-then is the
bed of the deep laid bare,
That the Sons of Mary may overcome it, pleasantly
sleeping and unaware.
They finger death at their gloves' end where they piece
and repiece the living wires.
He rears against the gates they tend: they feed him hungry
behind their fires.
Early at dawn, ere men see clear, they stumble into
his terrible stall,
And hale him forth a haltered steer, and goad and turn
him till evenfall.
To these from birth is Belief forbidden; from these till
death is Relief afar.
They are concerned with matters hidden - under the
earthline their altars are-
The secret fountains to follow up, waters withdrawn to
restore to the mouth,
And gather the floods as in a cup, and pour them again
at a city's drouth.

They do not preach that their God will rouse them a
little before the nuts work loose.
They do not teach that His Pity allows them to drop
their job when they dam'-well choose.
As in the thronged and the lighted ways, so in the dark
and the desert they stand,
Wary and watchful all their days that their brethren's
day may be long in the land.

Raise ye the stone or cleave the wood to make a path
more fair or flat -
Lo, it is black already with blood some Son of Martha
spilled for that!
Not as a ladder from earth to Heaven, not as a witness
to any creed,
But simple service simply given to his own kind in their
common need.

And the Sons of Mary smile and are blessed - they
know the Angels are on their side.
They know in them is the Grace confessed, and for
them are the Mercies multiplied.
They sit at the Feet - they hear the Word - they see
how truly the Promise runs.
They have cast their burden upon the Lord, and - the
Lord He lays it on Martha's Sons!

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 17:07
"Behave yourselves, for there are great works to behold, and much work still to be done."

Yep and I don't even like Canadians.:)

JAK
03-22-2008, 17:11
Busy as beavers we.

emerald
03-22-2008, 17:55
As a practical matter, there could be a way to network the service providers using some kind of listserve such as the one that AT-L is patterned after. Not AT-L itself—but something like AT-L.

It would exist only for trail service providers (hostels, shuttlers, lodging, outfitters, etc.) who would sign up to receive a daily e-mail consisting of all posts during the previous 24 hours. Only said service providers would be able to post anything for distribution to the list.

In addition to posting info about the rare problem hiker, such a listserve could function to help each provider by sharing ideas about what works and what doesn't work in their particular enterprises. They could learn from each other. This list could also be used to post info about missing hikers, hikers with special medical needs who may be moving up the trail so providers can be prepared. Possibilities are many, way beyond being a place to warn providers about the rare troublemaker. We would all benefit--hiker and provider alike.

I have no idea how such things work, but here's the URL for the umbrella site AT-L exists under:

http://www.backcountry.net/

To the best of my recollection (I haven't subscribed to AT-L for a number of years) the man who runs this is named Ryan. As I recall, he's a pretty good guy and has contributed a lot to the communities of various long-distance trails.

I'm thinking he could point someone who wanted to run with this in the right direction.

A private WB forum for only service providers might be a solution if there's an interest in providing something of this nature.

Since there may be legal concerns related to public disclosure of private information, misinformation circulating and inappropriate attention directed at people named which could do more harm than good, I believe such information should circulate somewhere other than where everyone can see it or comment upon it.

I have little doubt there are individuals here who disagree with me about such information being made public, but I feel strongly this information should circulate only on a "need to know" basis.

OregonHiker
03-22-2008, 18:24
I have little doubt there are individuals here who disagree with me about such information being made public, but I feel strongly this information should circulate only on a "need to know basis."

It's a slippery slope.

take-a-knee
03-22-2008, 19:15
I don't care what Jack Tarlin says, anyone who quotes Kipling is A OK, and what makes him ineligible to offer a comment about amerikan white-trash pothead hikers?

Tin Man
03-22-2008, 19:28
I have little doubt there are individuals here who disagree with me about such information being made public, but I feel strongly this information should circulate only on a "need to know" basis.

Dude, EVERYONE needs to know! How are other fun-loving people supposed to know where the boundaries of acceptable behavior lie if we don't talk about the ones who step across the line? And I emphasize fun-loving, because I think we all like to have fun, but having fun does not mean doing so at another's expense. Unfortunately, we cannot assume people know where the line is and we are merely pointing it out for them and others to follow. Also, how else can we tell the service providers that the rest of the hikers do not condone the actions of people who feel it is okay to ignore their rules and trash their establishments?

People who want to make examples of themselves can do so, good and bad. We should make sure we talk about both. When I enter an establishment, I make sure I am not tracking mud in or spreading it around. I treat the establishment like it was my own home. After all, I am merely a guest and would like to see the establishment be successful so it will be there for others and for the next time I come through.

If everyone behaved poorly, these establishments would either raise their prices so only the rich could afford or close their doors. That is how business works. Respect that or go somewhere else. That is what this thread is about and all we are trying to do here is share that simple, yet somehow misunderstood, set of behaviors that creates a hiker or people friendly environment.

Lone Wolf
03-22-2008, 19:31
Jack, what role do you think the hiking community should take in rectifying such problems?

the "hiking community" has no role. the HI gave a discount just to be nice. If a hiker never stayed there from this day forward, they wouldn't know the difference $$ wise. business as usual

OregonHiker
03-22-2008, 19:44
the "hiking community" has no role. the HI gave a discount just to be nice. If a hiker never stayed there from this day forward, they wouldn't know the difference $$ wise. business as usual

I gotta feeling if LW was the proprieter he might have tossed them right out, charged for the damage and maybe even called the cops.

That's the way to handle the situation so there would be an immediate educational lesson in the right way to behave without internet justice.

GGS2
03-22-2008, 20:00
I gotta feeling if LW was the proprieter he might have tossed them right out, charged for the damage and maybe even called the cops.

That's the way to handle the situation so there would be an immediate educational lesson in the right way to behave without internet justice.

Yup. Think of it as dog training. You got to reinforce/discourage the behavior and correction right away. But it is difficult to do for some people. They just don't want the confrontation. If the perps get away without any penalty or hassle, they get reinforced, and they may end up thinking they are the normal ones, and the helpful innkeepers are just uptight ****.

Lone Wolf
03-22-2008, 20:01
I gotta feeling if LW was the proprieter he might have tossed them right out, charged for the damage and maybe even called the cops.

That's the way to handle the situation so there would be an immediate educational lesson in the right way to behave without internet justice.

yeah pretty much. EFF the AT "community" i ain't part of it. :rolleyes:

Jason of the Woods
03-22-2008, 20:09
I'm with you Sir!
yeah pretty much. EFF the AT "community" i ain't part of it. :rolleyes:

emerald
03-22-2008, 20:24
Dude, EVERYONE needs to know!

You may or may not recall my post was in reply to Skyline's earlier post with which I was in agreement. The primary purpose of my post was to suggest how WhiteBlaze might help service providers in the manner he suggested and I made specific comments related to why a private forum strictly for service providers might be appropriate.

There could be other public threads to discuss what kinds of behavior are not appropriate on the part of AT hikers and to demonstrate support for service providers. Maybe you misunderstood.

Lone Wolf
03-22-2008, 20:26
You may or may not recall my post was in reply to Skyline's earlier post with which I was in agreement. The primary purpose of my post was to suggest how WhiteBlaze might help service providers in the manner he suggested and I made specific comments related to why a private forum strictly for service providers might be appropriate.

There could be other public threads to discuss what kinds of behavior are not appropriate on the part of AT hikers and to demonstrate support for service providers. Maybe you misunderstood.

the HI does not need hiker business. they're better off without it.

camojack
03-22-2008, 20:31
yeah pretty much. EFF the AT "community" i ain't part of it. :rolleyes:
Yes, you are...and the AT "community" is all the better for it. :)

emerald
03-22-2008, 20:33
the HI does not need hiker business. they're better off without it.

You're probably right and one way to effect the change they desire is to charge everyone the same price. Hikers who don't want to pay their price can stay elsewhere or camp in the woods.

GGS2
03-22-2008, 21:45
You're probably right and one way to effect the change they desire is to charge everyone the same price. Hikers who don't want to pay their price can stay elsewhere or camp in the woods.

Works for me. I stayed a night at the HI Express in Collingwood (Ontario) when I couldn't get in to any of the cheap places. I didn't need the pool or the really nice, clean rooms, or the twin queen sized beds. All I needed was a dry place to stay while I worked out some equipment issues. It was far too expensive, and the breakfast was nothing to boast about, but it met my immediate needs. Didn't get any discount, nor did I expect one.

This hiker's expectations are far lower than business and vacation travelers, but I do come in bushed, dirty and wet, with specific needs that I can satisfy in about any public accommodation. Sometimes I need a hose more than a washing machine. I rarely need a party or entertainment. I always need a cheap and plentiful restaurant, takeout or food store. I need a shower or bathtub and a clean bed. If there's a TV, I might check out the weather, news, etc. If there's a phone, it might save me some running about. I'm not fixing to stay for long.

By the way, Collingwood has all of that, but no really useful hiker outfitter. Best hope is the Canadian Tire at the mall, good for small things. Not exactly a trail town, but just beside the Bruce Trail where it meets Georgian Bay, and not far from the North-Western terminus of the Ganaraska Trail.

Tin Man
03-22-2008, 21:46
You may or may not recall my post was in reply to Skyline's earlier post with which I was in agreement. The primary purpose of my post was to suggest how WhiteBlaze might help service providers in the manner he suggested and I made specific comments related to why a private forum strictly for service providers might be appropriate.

There could be other public threads to discuss what kinds of behavior are not appropriate on the part of AT hikers and to demonstrate support for service providers. Maybe you misunderstood.

No, I understood and certainly meant no disrespect. There simply is no need for secrets here, or witch hunts for that matter. Certainly, the Internet affords an opportunity for service providers to be on the watch for idiots. I would also like to know who to avoid. The trail grapevine has always done that I suppose and the Internet just makes the grapevine more efficient. However, the point I was making is that we need to discuss the poor behavior of these individuals, to educate those who follow. Maybe you misunderstood.

Skyline
03-23-2008, 00:23
A private WB forum for only service providers might be a solution if there's an interest in providing something of this nature.

Since there may be legal concerns related to public disclosure of private information, misinformation circulating and inappropriate attention directed at people named which could do more harm than good, I believe such information should circulate somewhere other than where everyone can see it or comment upon it.

I have little doubt there are individuals here who disagree with me about such information being made public, but I feel strongly this information should circulate only on a "need to know" basis.


If the people allowed into a Forum for Service Providers were kept strictly to Service Providers, and one of the rules of that Forum (to maintain one's access) is that what gets discussed there, stays there—I don't see the problem.

It may not be something that the owners of WB would want to tackle, however. Perhaps one or more will comment.

I suggested the listserve because it might be easier to control who gets to see it and who gets to post to it.

Appalachian Tater
03-23-2008, 00:29
If the service providers want to communicate privately, they can start a group on Yahoo or Google or just use a grouped email address in any email software.

Skyline
03-23-2008, 00:38
No, I understood and certainly meant no disrespect. There simply is no need for secrets here, or witch hunts for that matter. Certainly, the Internet affords an opportunity for service providers to be on the watch for idiots. I would also like to know who to avoid. The trail grapevine has always done that I suppose and the Internet just makes the grapevine more efficient. However, the point I was making is that we need to discuss the poor behavior of these individuals, to educate those who follow. Maybe you misunderstood.


The trail grapevine will not cease to function. People will almost always post on WB about the most dramatic situations, like the one last year in Port Clinton or this year in Hiawassee.

But a Service Provider-only forum, or listserve, would be for that but mainly more everyday stuff that frankly would bore 'most everyone else. It would have a value just for Service Providers. It would be more valuable if those Service Providers could post their opinions and/or facts freely without it causing rifts in the hiker communities. It would, or could, be about much more than bad behavior by a few hikers. More like an ongoing seminar in how to treat hikers right, what their real needs are, how to organize one's business for better efficiency, where to get the best deals on the type of insurance shuttlers should have, wholesale sources for certain hiking items, and stuff like that.

Skyline
03-23-2008, 00:40
If the service providers want to communicate privately, they can start a group on Yahoo or Google or just use a grouped email address in any email software.


Good idea, too.

Tin Man
03-23-2008, 00:45
If the service providers want to communicate privately, they can start a group on Yahoo or Google or just use a grouped email address in any email software.

They could, but unless their main event is coddling hikers, why should they bother? They should assess damages to those who cause damage, including cleanup costs for mudifying or smokifying a room. They just need to be up front about it. e.g. "Welcome to our friendly little establishment. This may sound rather strict, but we have had some problems in the past. In order to preserve our hiker discount, we must insist all our patrons agree to some simple rules and be courteous to our other guests. Oh, and by the way, the damage assessment for smoking or excessive mud or other damages that require extra cleanup will be charged to your credit card. And, yes, that is Officer Barney Fife across the street making sure everything is cool. (smiling) Enjoy your stay!"

Tin Man
03-23-2008, 00:49
The trail grapevine will not cease to function. People will almost always post on WB about the most dramatic situations, like the one last year in Port Clinton or this year in Hiawassee.

But a Service Provider-only forum, or listserve, would be for that but mainly more everyday stuff that frankly would bore 'most everyone else. It would have a value just for Service Providers. It would be more valuable if those Service Providers could post their opinions and/or facts freely without it causing rifts in the hiker communities. It would, or could, be about much more than bad behavior by a few hikers. More like an ongoing seminar in how to treat hikers right, what their real needs are, how to organize one's business for better efficiency, where to get the best deals on the type of insurance shuttlers should have, wholesale sources for certain hiking items, and stuff like that.

I doubt anyone is making enough money off of thru-hikers to be bothered. Don't ya think?

fiddlehead
03-23-2008, 01:04
When I hiked along the AT (where i got more dirty than any other trail I've hiked) I am sure that the cleaning person at the hotels where i stayed had to spend more time cleaning a room after i left than their average customers.
sometimes, now, i don't even use the shower!

That being said, if i happened to own a hotel along the AT, i would probably either charge more for hikers because they would cost me more work, money, aggravation, damage, than most other folks. That means, i would most likely raise my prices and charge them more, or, just not allow them. It's a simple fact of business.

In this case, the people in charge know that the dirtier, more hassle, possibly boiserous (does anybody even know the whole, true story or the hikers side of this thing? ) customers where AT hikers, so they simply stopped their discount after looking at all the problems we've ALL caused over and above the norm.

I like the Hiawassee Holiday Inn Express because it has always been one of the cleanest places i've ever stayed. I was a little surprised that they even let us come in there as bad as we smell sometimes. In my early days, i could never afford a place this nice, now maybe i can. If I can, i'll pay the bucks, if i can't, i'll go elsewhere. But never would i expect special treatment of prices for the problems i cause that cleaning lady.

Stop whining about it and learn to live with the fact that we all cause these people problems and don't deserve a discount.

emerald
03-23-2008, 09:25
Thanks for your additional comments Skyline which follow from your earlier post about how the Internet might be employed by AT service providers for their mutual benefit.

Sly
03-23-2008, 09:39
The trail grapevine will not cease to function. People will almost always post on WB about the most dramatic situations, like ..... this year in Hiawassee.



Again, we're not even sure of what happen in Hiawassee. It was second hand info taken from another un-named website and with the exception of smoking pot in a non-smoking room, not very descriptive..

Nearly Normal
03-23-2008, 10:41
It is a shameful thing.
If you can't act in a civilized manner in civilization then you should be held accountable.
Stimulants in any form are no excuse.
The hotel won't miss us, or maybe they will.
It seems with a hiker discount they must have wanted our business. Perhaps multiple letters could be written espressing the hiking communities displeasure with the project 100,000 membered maggots involved, could mend the fence.
NN

riverroyer
03-23-2008, 10:50
As an Inn owner and future AT Trail Hiker I generally just charge folks for not managing our posted requests, like no smoking, no pets without paying the pet fee. I do this because of the extra added expense of cleaning not to be an a**h***. And, when they call and ask what the extra charge is for (if they do) then they never have disputed the charge. Funny when people know they have shimmied around the request. As a biz owner and employer I try to never make too many rules or demands, just requests, but hen some don't get what a request is and then have to be told. My impressions are that it seems like hikers would be more tuned into this. Happy Easter.

emerald
03-23-2008, 10:56
Perhaps multiple letters could be written espressing the hiking communities displeasure ...

NN

If a decision has been made regarding a change in rates, people should accept it and move on rather than request its reversal. That's asking for favored treatment because hikers are special.:rolleyes:

OregonHiker
03-23-2008, 10:59
yeah pretty much. EFF the AT "community" i ain't part of it. :rolleyes:


Like Grouch Marks said....i wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member

Lone Wolf
03-23-2008, 11:01
Like Mark Twain said....i wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member

i thought that was groucho marks

Skyline
03-23-2008, 11:08
I doubt anyone is making enough money off of thru-hikers to be bothered. Don't ya think?


That could be true. Businesses serving hikers generally aren't building up their 401k's with the revenue.

Still, there are probably 10 or 15 providers--maybe more--who are as much a part of the AT scene as the hikers are. I've seen a few of them at Trail Days, the Gathering, etc. These particular individuals, or enterprises, might be interested in having an electronic grapevine like an e-mail listserve. Once set up, it's really not much of a bother at all. You get it in your inbox each morning, read it if you want to, and if you have anything to add for the next day's e-mail blast you do so.

Skyline
03-23-2008, 11:14
If a decision has been made regarding a change in rates, people should accept it and move on rather than request its reversal. That's asking for favored treatment because hikers are special.:rolleyes:


Absolutely correct.

But a few letters from AT hikers condemning the bad behavior by newbies that got the HIE pissed off might be a good thing--without asking for the hiker discount to be reinstated of course.

Skyline
03-23-2008, 11:17
Again, we're not even sure of what happen in Hiawassee. It was second hand info taken from another un-named website and with the exception of smoking pot in a non-smoking room, not very descriptive..


Well, something pretty serious must have happened. We look forward to hearing the details from someone else who knows first hand, the HIE itself, or the hikers themselves.

In the meantime, we only have our shared history with hikers who we've all met who think rules don't apply to them, have a sense of entitlement, etc. to go by. It sounds like de ja vu all over again, don't you think?

turtle fast
03-23-2008, 11:18
With 12 pages of postings it is pretty clear that folks are passionate about keeping our goodwill intact....not all hikers are problem childs....but we DO have to be aware of wrongdoing when it exists. Plain and simple real or not if the incident did occur in Hiawassee...it was WRONG! Respect plays alot into life and this was disrespectful plain and simple.

Lone Wolf
03-23-2008, 11:21
Well, something pretty serious must have happened. We look forward to hearing the details from someone else who knows first hand, the HIE itself, or the hikers themselves.

In the meantime, we only have our shared history with hikers who we've all met who think rules don't apply to them, have a sense of entitlement, etc. to go by. It sounds like de ja vu all over again, don't you think?

this **** has been going on for the 22 years i've been on and around the AT. it ain't gonna change. it happens a lot more now cuz there's lots more hikers. it's the under 30 crowd that's doing it.

emerald
03-23-2008, 11:23
I'm beginning to see something resembling consensus developing here!:)

Nearly Normal
03-23-2008, 11:24
If a decision has been made regarding a change in rates, people should accept it and move on rather than request its reversal. That's asking for favored treatment because hikers are special.:rolleyes:

I certainly don't advocate begging or whinning or snivveling.
I DO think it is a good idea the owners realize that those maggots don't represent hikers.
I don't ask for special treatment from anyone.
Why would you even think my post did?
Trolling?

OregonHiker
03-23-2008, 11:28
i thought that was groucho marks

DOH!!

It's the thought that counts

emerald
03-23-2008, 11:37
it ain't gonna change. it happens a lot more now cuz there's lots more hikers. it's the under 30 crowd that's doing it.

I suspect incidents only seem to have become more frequent because there are more hikers now than years ago. The percentage of bad apples in each year's crop may be no more now than it's always been.

The majority who are respectful of others and concerned about the AT should continue to speak out against bad bahavior if only to remind ourselves that life goes on and there is plenty for which we can still be grateful.

emerald
03-23-2008, 11:40
I certainly don't advocate begging or whinning or snivveling.

I'm not fishing and I'm glad to learn you're doing your level best to earn a patch.;)

OregonHiker
03-23-2008, 11:44
, like the one last year in Port Clinton

Can't find that thread...any help

emerald
03-23-2008, 11:49
Well, something pretty serious must have happened. We look forward to hearing the details from someone else who knows first hand, the HIE itself, or the hikers themselves.

I don't see what either party has to gain by posting. If either or both do, I hope everyone remains civil.

Lone Wolf
03-23-2008, 11:49
Can't find that thread...any help

some hikers got poofaced drunk at the pavillion in port clinton, then jumped in a pool without permission then puked and pooed on the pavillion floor. class act

emerald
03-23-2008, 11:53
Thanks Wolf for satisfying readers' curiosity. It might be best to not dig up old bones and focus on this year's incidents instead, provided someone chooses to shed more light upon what we've heard.

Saturday, April 5, BMECC will conduct what's described in its activity schedule as a "major cleanup" at a Port Clinton trailhead. Anyone who wants to lend a hand is invited to participate. Some WhiteBlazers have indicated they will attend.

BMECC's website is not yet updated with information on its latest schedule. I believe they want to know in advance how many to expect.

Some additional information can be found here (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32974).

fiddlehead
03-23-2008, 19:43
I DO think it is a good idea the owners realize that those maggots don't represent hikers.



Maggots? And have you even heard their side of the story?

If you are saying you have never smoked pot in a hotel room, you are probably in the minority.

Hooch
03-23-2008, 20:08
Maggots? And have you even heard their side of the story?

If you are saying you have never smoked pot in a hotel room, you are probably in the minority.That's one minority I don't mind a bit to be a part of. :D

Lone Wolf
03-23-2008, 20:19
Maggots? And have you even heard their side of the story?

If you are saying you have never smoked pot in a hotel room, you are probably in the minority.

i've never smoked pot or any other unhealthy lung killer in a motel room or drank a beer in a hostel that forbade it. stoners and tobacco users are always rationalizing thier use and abuse

Tin Man
03-23-2008, 20:22
That's one minority I don't mind a bit to be a part of. :D

I am not so sure who is in the minority here. Seems like a lot of assumptions are being made.

Lone Wolf
03-23-2008, 20:23
I am not so sure who is in the minority here. Seems like a lot of assumptions are being made.

obviously you're not a Marine.

OregonHiker
03-23-2008, 20:24
i've never smoked pot or any other unhealthy lung killer in a motel room +

Soo...where did you smoke pot at? :D

GGS2
03-23-2008, 20:25
I don't think it is just about pot or smoking, although that seems to be what most of the vehemence is about. As I recall the OP, pot was the least of their concerns. I think the motel operators would be most concerned about regaining beneficial use of their property, and the cost of that.

Appalachian Tater
03-23-2008, 20:30
They smoked in a non-smoking room. The substance that they smoked is irrelevant. A lot of marijuana users do seem unaware of how distinctive the odor is and how easily it is detected even from long distances and in small quantities.

Hooch
03-23-2008, 20:33
If you are saying you have never smoked pot in a hotel room, you are probably in the minority.


That's one minority I don't mind a bit to be a part of. :D


I am not so sure who is in the minority here. Seems like a lot of assumptions are being made.I assume nothing. I'm very proudly drug and intoxicant free, excepting the occasional adult beverage, which I use responsibly.


obviously you're not a Marine.Amen and Semper Fi, LW!

Lone Wolf
03-23-2008, 20:35
They smoked in a non-smoking room. The substance that they smoked is irrelevant. A lot of marijuana users do seem unaware of how distinctive the odor is and how easily it is detected even from long distances and in small quantities.

they don't GAF