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sansancc
03-21-2008, 18:36
I know everyone has a fear of Pits, but I plan on taking mine on the trail with me and I was wanting some advice on training methods. I don't have the money to put her in an obedence program, but i do have plenty of time to spend with her. Any advice will help.
Thanks sansan

Rouen
03-21-2008, 18:47
if you plan on having her off lead most of the time, train her to get behind you when other hikers are around, or to sit patiently a few feet off the trail as people pass. One would hope that would cut down on anyone trying to hurt her while on the trail.

warraghiyagey
03-21-2008, 18:55
I would think that having a pit-bull on the trail would in general change the entire nature of your hike, and others around you, just for the publicity the particular breed gets.
I've only come across one on the trail, on Mt. Greylock. It was on a leash, the owner made the weakest attempt to rein it away from the trail as it lunged and snapped at me at less than a foot away.
My fear as I passed naturally turned to anger at why someone would subject others to that experience.
My concern is that yours isn't even trained yet and you're already thingking of bringing your pet along.
It's a worrisome proposition. For sure if someone came into camp with one I'd likely packup and move along.
I know they aren't all deserving of the publicity but that publicity is there for a reason.

shelterbuilder
03-21-2008, 19:01
I know everyone has a fear of Pits, but I plan on taking mine on the trail with me and I was wanting some advice on training methods. I don't have the money to put her in an obedence program, but i do have plenty of time to spend with her. Any advice will help.
Thanks sansan

I don't have pitbulls - I have huskies, but I know several folks who do have pitties, and they need love, and a firm hand (just like any other dog).

How old is your dog? What is it's general disposition (good around you, you family, kids, other folks, other dogs, other animals)? Does it like to hike?

If the dog is too young, hiking could put damaging stress on its skeletal structure while it's growing, and this can cause problems down the road. Check with your vet before you leave to make sure that this will not be a problem. Also, if the dog is too young, it will not be easy to train it. If the dog is sweet-natured, and takes to family, friends, and other dogs and animals, then, with the proper training, the dog will neither cause problems nor have any.

"Sit", "stay", "down-stay", "come", "heel", and "NO" are basic commands that will see you through most situations. The dog MUST understand that YOU are in charge, and that when you give a command, it MUST be obeyed instantly. (Sometimes, this will be for the dog's own safety!) If you work with the dog for 15 - 20 minutes a session once or twice a day, the dog should pick up the commands within a few days, but practice and repetition are important. The dog will not understand what you want at first; you may have to physically push the dog into a "sit" , for instance. Reward it with a SMALL treat when it does what you want it to do; no reward for no performance. ("Good dog" and a pat on the head works wonders, too.) Work on only one command at a time; after one command is learned, move on to another, but keep going back to the old commands from time to time for reinforcement.

And remember, keeping the dog on a leash while hiking may save it's life, but will definitely make other hikers happy!

shelterbuilder
03-21-2008, 19:05
...I've only come across one on the trail, on Mt. Greylock. It was on a leash, the owner made the weakest attempt to rein it away from the trail as it lunged and snapped at me at less than a foot away....

This reminds me - many dogs are alarmed by the sight of a hiker with a pack (of any size): they mistake the unfamilar shape for some sort of monster! Make sure that you wear your pack in front of the dog arond the house, so that the dog is accustomed to the sight. (I know, it sounds dumb....:o )

budforester
03-21-2008, 19:16
Pitbulls make wonderful companion dogs. The ones I've known were protective of master and home, but they would stand their ground and not go out of their way to attack. They liked people and endured the attentions of children. However, pitbulls don't like other dogs; they can and will kill them; I wouldn't expect obedience school to cure that problem. My suggestion is a short lead... and a very sturdy one. Be attentive... she may decide to drag you down the trail.

Thrasher
03-21-2008, 19:24
Put it on a leash. I was on the trail a few weeks ago with my wife and we came across a family with 2 pitbulls that were in front of the family. They made no real attempt to stop them and yelled, "they're friendly, they won't bite". Right...
I thought: Then why is this one pitbull stopped, head down, and growling at me?
The other pitbull was fine, but I still don't trust them. They are naturally aggressive dogs.
If someone with a pitbull set up camp near me, I think I would also pack up and leave.
The best option is to leave the pitbull at home. But if you're set on taking it, keep it on a leash, please :)

sansancc
03-21-2008, 19:40
She is 2 months old and loves people, my nephew came over today and she played with him for hours without getting to ruff. I live on 5 acers on a mountain side just out side of Gatlinburg and she follows up the top of the mountain and does not go more then 10 feet in front of me, stops and waits til I catch up and then goes a little furter. She sits there with me while I read my book and sleeps. She gets excited to see anyone but will not jump on them. She will walk up and sit right by my shoes ontop of my pack until I start to put my shoes on then she will run to the door.

JDCool1
03-21-2008, 20:00
Living next to GSMNP you are familiar with the leash laws in areas supervised by the national park service. The doggie leash is the law. It will protect you from libility laws and pain. any dog on the trail should be on the leash and well trained to boot. Take care, learn all you can and have fun.

sansancc
03-21-2008, 20:04
Yep I sure do. Thats why i need some pointers on training techniques.

thestin
03-21-2008, 20:07
Are you planning on thru-hiking with your dog? Your dog will not be allowed in the Smokies and in Baxter State Park.

sansancc
03-21-2008, 20:11
Yes I know, my mom will be picking her up and droping her back off to me.

JDCool1
03-21-2008, 20:11
A very good book is the "Dog Whisperer" by Ceasar Milan. Very well written and easy to follow. He is on the Animal Planet or Discovery TV channel

yappy
03-21-2008, 20:13
go out west and hike. You will have alot more space and alot less people.

notorius tic
03-21-2008, 20:45
Look that is not a great choice there obdient but very determind an if you shout loud or anouther (friendly) hiker shouts or a animal jumps *** going to happen next spend 3 yrs feel the deamner because i got my i got my 5inch GERBER that is going to stop................. THINK dogs are dogs an people are people?

kayak karl
03-21-2008, 20:48
I know everyone has a fear of Pits, but I plan on taking mine on the trail with me and I was wanting some advice on training methods. I don't have the money to put her in an obedence program, but i do have plenty of time to spend with her. Any advice will help.
Thanks sansan
my son has a pure breed. mine (princess) is half pitbull and golden lab. i tell people she will chew your leg off, but sh'll bring it back.:) they are both great on the trail, but princess is walked 2 miles a day around people on city streets. till we get to the river then she runs. on weekends we go to parks or the DOD (state property on delaware) and runs for hour or 2. (pics in my gallery) The point i am making is the trail would not be new to her. how about your dog? can she walk without a leach, listen to commands, heel! princess is over 12 and the trail would be hard on her. YOU know your dog! WOULD YOU TRUST HER:-? if yes! have a great safe hike.
kayak

Two Speed
03-21-2008, 20:52
Sansancc, you've certainly taken on a challenge. Pit Bulls can be wonderful dogs, but unfortunately some of them just don't socialize well.

Before I get started I think I should mention that I'm a dog hiker. I'm not trying to throw cold water on your plans, but a Pit is going to be a greater responsibility than almost any other breed, due to their reputation and how they are going to be perceived by other people that you are bound to run into.

That said I'd get him on the trail as soon as possible, and as often as possible. The objective is twofold.

The first objective is to get him accustomed to meeting other hikers and to let him know what your expectations are, which brings up another subject. In order to let him know what your expectations are you're going to have to have that clearly worked out in your own mind, or you won't be able to consistently communicate that to him.

The second objective is to honestly evaluate his behavior and how you and other hikers interact with him.

A detail to keep in mind is that you've got to be very firm with him while not being so harsh as to evoke aggressive behavior in him. Depending on the dog that can be quite a balancing act, but the sooner you start the better chance you have of succeeding.

A resource I found very helpful are the Monks of New Skete. You can find their books at http://www.newsketemonks.com/catalogue.htm.

Don't forget that his personality may change as he matures. Just because he's a playful pup at 2 months is no guarantee of his behavior at 1 or 2 years. You will need to be extremely honest with yourself about his behavior, and be prepared to change your plans if he turns out not to be as gentle as he is today.

Please bear in mind that, like humans, all dogs are individuals and no one can really say how he'll turn out. He may be a wonderful trail dog, perfectly adapted to hiking and a joy to be around with very little effort.

Of course, the exact opposite is possible, too, which could have some very negative consequences.

budforester
03-21-2008, 21:07
She sounds great! I agree with Shelterbuilder, that she needs some physical maturity before long- distance hiking. She is good with people, so encourage that as she matures; she will know if you are ever startled or feel threatened, and that lolling- tongue smile will quickly disappear. I think pitbulls get a bum rap, but many people fear them… and might avoid you on the AT. Hopefully, you got a good one; the old- timers wouldn’t keep a pitbull that was disobedient or aggressive toward people, but the breed has not been so strictly controlled in recent years. She will soon become a powerful animal, so you will need to always be master, not just her friend. In public, she must have a strong collar and a short, heavy- duty lead that she can’t pull out of your grip. If she sidles over to get a lick of Little- Johnny’s ice cream, he might cry. Daddy might take it wrong and come down on her with a baseball bat. Someone else may have a dog that wants to be aggressive… she will likely oblige them. You should carry a break- stick, in case you need to pry her jaws apart. Another tip… it does not work to zip a pitbull in a tent while doing camp chores. They will come out if they want to.

notorius tic
03-21-2008, 21:39
Good advive but you got to think outside the BOX there great places to play with LOVING ANIMAL FUK the woods are free for all thats why we go there<::: The dog is a product ff its enviro hate to say it it is what you make it<::: STILL GOT MY 5inch GERBER

SunnyWalker
03-21-2008, 21:44
I kind of pickup that you are a female hiker? that would be a great reason to hike with a dog, let alone a pit bull that you have trained. I think you have received some good advice: basic commands and work on leash. Figure out will the dog be in your tent (if you use a tent)? If you are going to be in the shelters, where will your dog sleep? Are you bringing a tent for the dog? or a pad or pillow? Water dish, food? Most hikers don't like to see a dog actually drinking up water from a spring or something it it is small seepage type of outlet. Be sure to get the dog vet shots. And with porcupines and all around you really, really do need the dog to be in instant obedience to you. have a great hike. -SunnyWalker

Doctari
03-21-2008, 21:44
In reality: a "Pit bull" is a dog trained to fight in a pit. While Stafforshire Bull terriers are commonly refered to as "Pit bulls" there are many other dogs used in fighting. I find that blaming the dog/breed for what the (few?) owners have done is horrable.
Our Cloe was as sweet as any other dogs I have owned. She loved everyone, and everything.

I don't like the idea of taking a dog on an extended hike, but if you must, & your dog is well trained & not agressive, go for it.

Rouen
03-22-2008, 00:58
A very good book is the "Dog Whisperer" by Ceasar Milan. Very well written and easy to follow. He is on the Animal Planet or Discovery TV channel

Cesar Millan currently has 2 books out, Cesar's Way and Be The Pack Leader, his show is on the National Geographic Channel(and it was on tonight). Cesar's got a very nice pit named Daddy that could change anyones mind about the breed.

Purple
03-22-2008, 04:39
Good advive but you got to think outside the BOX there great places to play with LOVING ANIMAL FUK the woods are free for all thats why we go there<::: The dog is a product ff its enviro hate to say it it is what you make it<::: STILL GOT MY 5inch GERBER

We get the message! if her dog approaches you, you are going to kill it with your Gerber - KNIFE!

You better think twice before you pull that Gerber on anyone or anything. I had an 8 yr old Poodle, who are known for their gentle, loving nature. She was trained to go get my mail from the postman everyday. I lived in an apartment complex and all my neighbors knew "Ginger" and loved to watch her go get the mail. One day I was walking on the side walk with her between me and a wall. A substitute post"lady" was approaching us. The woman stopped, said "lady control your dog". I looked at her and smiled and said "she is NOT out of control" This woman grabbed her MACE, kneeled down on one knee and sprayed Ginger in the face. Ginger was on her leash and had no place to run away because she was between me and the wall. The woman got up walked around me and sprayed her again saying "I told you to control your dog". I managed to get Ginger to a nearby water faucet and wash her eyes and head. But she was very tramatized.

Next day I get a notice on my mailbox that I can no longer receive mail at my home because of my dogs BAD BEHAVIOR. I wrote a letter to the postmaster detailing the incident, had 3 neighbors sign it proving that SHE "attacked my dog", not the other way around. Now you are thinking ... doesn't matter ... she is a postwoman ... so she is right. WRONG! The B**** was fired. Seem's she hated dogs and had attacked 5 other dogs in the neighborhood.

I no longer let Ginger go get the mail, for HER safety.

The point I am making is: just because you are hiking the trail, it does not give you the right to "preceive" danger and arbitrarily use your "Gerber" on someone's pet. You would pay the consequences. Either by the law or from an irrate owner.

With all that said in the defense of dogs, I will add that ANYONE that takes a dog (of any age or breed) on the trail is endangering the DOG'S health and life. You can not possibly conceive the dangers from MAN, BEAST or INSECTS. Even a spider bite can be fatal to a dog. If you love your dog, leave it with someone who will care for it while you are gone. The dog will still love you just as much when you return ..... dog's are like that ... yeah they are :)

gsingjane
03-22-2008, 09:28
There are some things we can absolutely control, like the way we ourselves act. There are some things we can sometimes control, like the way our dogs or our children act. And there are some things we cannot ever control, like the way other people whom we don't know act, or think or believe or perceive.

Like it or not, the pit bull breed has an extraordinarily nasty reputation. Anybody who has lived in an urban area has encountered many, many pits who were trained, at the very least, to intimidate. When I lived in Brooklyn in the late 1980's and early 1990's, at least once a day I would see a drug dealer, parading down the street with a snarling pit (or Doberman or rottie) and it was very clear that they had these dogs because they couldn't legally display their firearms and these dogs were the next best thing to it. Finally I was bit by one of these pits and it was one of the scariest events of my life.

Is this you? Of course not. I am sure that you neither deal drugs nor use your dog to intimidate people. But what you cannot control is how other people will perceive your dog and, by extension, you. I have heard over and over that many pits are kind and sweet and gentle. But I will still cross the street to avoid coming near one, and would feel extraordinarily uneasy, if not outright scared, at the idea of sharing a campsite or shelter with one. Certainly uneasy enough to try to be elsewhere if it were practicable.

Maybe it won't matter to you, on the trail, that some portion of the folks you encounter will not want to be in your dog's presence. Some hikers, I think, would rather be left completely to themselves, so for them hiking with a dog that people commonly perceive as vicious, or hiking with a visible weapon, is probably a good thing. If it were me making this decision, I would think about whether I wanted to meet people and make friends on the trail. If you don't, or at least it doesn't matter much to you one way or the other, then I would say, hike away with your pit bull. Again, whether it is right or just or fair in your particular situation, people are going to have their perceptions and act on them, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it, except to figure out how you feel about that and then modify (or not) your behavior accordingly.

Jane in CT

Jim Adams
03-22-2008, 09:45
She is 2 months old and loves people, my nephew came over today and she played with him for hours without getting to ruff. I live on 5 acers on a mountain side just out side of Gatlinburg and she follows up the top of the mountain and does not go more then 10 feet in front of me, stops and waits til I catch up and then goes a little furter. She sits there with me while I read my book and sleeps. She gets excited to see anyone but will not jump on them. She will walk up and sit right by my shoes ontop of my pack until I start to put my shoes on then she will run to the door.


TOO YOUNG FOR ANY DOG!!!!!
Just watched a couple at Neel's Gap make arrangements to send their 2 dogs home from the there on a just started thru because it was too much for the dogs and they were 10 months old.

geek

Nearly Normal
03-22-2008, 10:40
I like dogs. I've kept one or two consistantly from boyhood. Never have I not been a dog owner.

I get out and hike as often as I can. Usually 3 to 7 day sections.
I have seen dogs on the trail. Usually no problem.

The dogs under control have never been a problem. They might bark or strain the leash a little but no problem.
I don't stay at shelters so I don't have a shelter dog experience.

Dogs roaming, with the master usually following behind, can be. Not always, but sometimes.

On two seperate trips I've had dogs harass me.

Once, another hikers dog was just a plain coward.
He circle widely and would bark/howl but I just kept moving. But the dog stayed with me as I hiked continuing this behavior. I was not afraid of this dog and tried to ignore it. At first I thought it was funny but after a while it got old.
After about 30 minutes I just quit hiking and sat on a log. In a short while the owners caught up and their dog moved away with them. I gave them another 30 minutes and continued my hike. I didn't even get a response from these folks as they walked by.

The second trip, a dog clearly to be afraid of approached and the party I was with had to stop. This dog would have surely caused a problem if we hadn't. As the owner approached laughing he declared "he won't bite". One our our party declared back " the next thing you will say is (he never did that before)."

Two trips where negitive dog interaction made me conform to the dog.

I had always thought it would be great to take a dog on a short hiking trip.

BUT, the thought that my dog might, even in the smallest way, effect or impact another's trail experience prevents me from it.
To me this would be thoughtless and rude to everyone else hiking their own hike.

If you bring a dog on the trail that impacts negitively in any way, another persons trail experience, then you should not hike public trails.

Ask yourself this.
If your dog clearly intends me harm and I bash him with a oak hiking staff, who will you be mad with?
Me or Yourself?

Who do you think the court will believe?
Me or you with an un-controlled dog?

Terry7
03-22-2008, 12:35
The only animal trouble I had last year on my 1200 mile section hike was out of control dogs. I love dogs but this year I will be carrying pepper spray.

Undershaft
03-22-2008, 19:54
The point I am making is: just because you are hiking the trail, it does not give you the right to "preceive" danger and arbitrarily use your "Gerber" on someone's pet. You would pay the consequences. Either by the law or from an irrate owner


Unless the dog was NOT on a leash. If the dog is not leashed, it is NOT under control. Cops and courts will most likely reach the same conclusion. If you have a dog on the trail, keep it on a short leash ALL the time. Unfortunately, very few people keep their dogs leashed when hiking.

UberPest
03-23-2008, 11:05
I'm 26, have been hiking/backpacking for about 9 years with one or the other of the dogs (Lucy just passed in August at approximately age 15-- hard to say for sure since she was a rescue). Beau, my "Go To Guy" has at least 500 trail miles under his paws with maybe another 2-300 running alongside my bike to stay in shape for the show ring (more on that later). My newest addition is Tomi, who will be 2 next week (I just got him 2 weeks ago).

I wouldn't put a pack on a dog that young-- many aren't done growing until 18-24 months. I know a lot of APBT and sled dog competitors will do weight pull or other sledding at as young as a year, but that is an entirely different stress on their bones/joints/muscles than carrying a pack, jumping over logs, etc.

As for finding a trainer for cheap--check out your local recreation departments. Where I went to college (graduated in 2003) there was a rec center that offered basic obedience for $15 for an 8-week class. I'd imagine it might be as much as $20-25 for the same class now, but in any case there are PLENTY of classes that are around $50. Sometimes (and it is rare) the 4-H program will let adults sit in on the youth classes.

I would definitely make sure the dog could pass the Therapy Dog International test before you took it on a thru. The dogs have to be able to greet a friendly stranger, greet a stranger with a dog, walk politely on a leash, come when called, sit and stay, down and stay, stay with a friendly person while you leave, ignore food (they used hot dogs with Beau), tolerate a "strange" stranger (very important in a clinical setting), and tolerate a strange/startling noise (Beau did the Canine Good Citizen and TDI tests on different days-- TDI has all the CGC exercises with a few others added on, like the food). His CGC evaluator used a tambourine for the strange noise and the TDI evaluator used a folded up walker that she threw across the floor near us.

When I was in college I would go drinking at a bar with outside seating near some train tracks. Beau would sit/lay next to me and ignore the train-- something that has been invaluable in both his life on the trail and in his career in the show ring. He can also run on a leash while I'm riding my bike and ignore the cars passing us (I used to live on a country road where everyone knew us, and knew they didn't have to give Beau LOTS of room-- sometimes they'd be as close as 4' while we were on the road). While hiking this has been great since we do occasionally need to do road walks and the cars will get close to us.

As someone else said, make sure your dog can handle seeing someone wearing a pack--even if you have to enlist a friend. Something I learned this weekend is that Tomi likes my Dad-- but only when Dad's sitting down. "Standing Up Dad" is still pretty scary-- I don't know why except Dad's pretty tall and the people I got Tomi from are about my height.

Also make sure your dog can handle being around bikes and pack stock. Many state parks have saddle barns and you can bring your dog near them to train her to ignore horses. The easiest way to do this is to ask her to sit and stay (while looking at you) while the horses are nearby. I will often have Beau sit or down next to the trail while other trail users pass by.

Beau is never allowed to beg for food. Since he is a dog, he will still sometimes stare at someone's hand if they have something tasty (mostly at dog shows, where he knows if he begs enough, someone will feed him). Lucy worked in a nursing home as a therapy dog, so she had to learn to NEVER (ever) take food from someone or off the floor unless I gave her the okay--you never know when a patient might drop a pill or try to slip it to the dog (it can happen). I also have 9 nieces and nephews (and another due in May), so the dogs aren't allowed to take food from their hands unless we say so. This has been awesomely useful on the trail when we do encounter other hikers (then again, I'm in the Midwest, so we do NOT meet the numbers of hikers you would on the AT).

Feeding is also an issue-- you want to make sure she can get enough calories while hiking. Some dogs (like my Beau) will eat easily double their "at home" rations while working on the trail. There are several brands of kibble (Innova's EVO, Nature's Recipe, and Inukshuk for sled dogs come immediately to mind) that have a crazy caloric density and are easy to digest. You can also get freeze-dried raw meat for sled dogs and use that to supplement (it's expensive, but if you feed raw at home, that's a way to continue that diet on the trail). I give my boys fish oil pills every day, and they get eggs a few times a week (egg powder is available at a lot of dried-food/natural food stores). I also feed a kibble that has glucosamine and chondroitin in it-- but you can easily supplement that as well (liquid is better than powder/tablets for absorption by the body, but much harder to carry). Beau and Lucy both like(d) Zuke's Power Bones. Tomi hasn't had them yet.

HTH.

gravityman
03-23-2008, 11:50
Call it an American Terrier, or whatever specific breed it is. Most people have no idea what a pit bull actually looks like, and it will certainly make your life easier. That's what Dozer did in 2005... Gave him a lot less headache..

Gravity

UberPest
03-23-2008, 12:10
As someone else said, make sure your dog can handle seeing someone wearing a pack--even if you have to enlist a friend.

Oops. I meant to say, "even if you have to enlist a friend to help with the training."

shelterbuilder
03-23-2008, 12:18
Oops. I meant to say, "even if you have to enlist a friend to help with the training."

I've often wondered how many local, loose dogs have bothered hikers along the trail just because they were spooked by the "shape" of a hiker and the backpack. The one and only time I've ever been bothered by local dogs was in Pa. near the end of the old Cumberland Valley crossing - three of them at once, all around me! I've never walked so far while dancing in circles to ward off teeth!:D

beeman
03-23-2008, 12:44
I was scared by a dog in Va, who's owner decided to drop and take a nap right on the trail. THe dog was growling, barking, and baring it's teeth and it's tail was straight and stiff. I was very grateful at that moment to at least have my hiking poles in hand. :eek:
I have two dogs and I love them but I do have mixed feelings about dogs on the AT which is a PEOPLE trail. I'm out there to relax, not be scared by someones out of control dog. Or dodge pet feces as well as people feces.:(
That being said, I have hiked with a couple who had a very well behaved dog. They had the leash readily at hand and used it often. I'm not going to make any comments on your dog, which I don't know, except to say I agree with previous posts about getting your dog used to hiking, other hikers, obeying your commands very well and I hope you are aware that you and your pet can ruin a trail experience for yourself and others if the circumstances go sour. I also find with my dogs that that they can get foot sore, and tired and it can affect their behavior. Make sure you have plenty of vet phone numbers for the section of trail you plan to hike and learn some animal first aid also. Good luck.:)

CrumbSnatcher
03-23-2008, 14:00
She is 2 months old and loves people, my nephew came over today and she played with him for hours without getting to ruff. I live on 5 acers on a mountain side just out side of Gatlinburg and she follows up the top of the mountain and does not go more then 10 feet in front of me, stops and waits til I catch up and then goes a little furter. She sits there with me while I read my book and sleeps. She gets excited to see anyone but will not jump on them. She will walk up and sit right by my shoes ontop of my pack until I start to put my shoes on then she will run to the door.
this dogs to young to nobo this year or sobo!next year would be better. 3-4 yrs old would be the best. your pup is still growing, you'll only hurt him in the long run.

superman
03-23-2008, 14:35
I know everyone has a fear of Pits, but I plan on taking mine on the trail with me and I was wanting some advice on training methods. I don't have the money to put her in an obedence program, but i do have plenty of time to spend with her. Any advice will help.
Thanks sansan

When I was about 7 years old I was riding my bike and a German shepherd jumped me, pulled me off the bike and chewed on my back. The last thing in the world that I would get would be a German shepherd. About 11 years ago I was driving down my road and there was a white ball of fur in the road. It could have been an earmuff. I stopped to see what it was ...it was a 5-week-old puppy. She couldn't walk, she was skin and bones and her ears were packed with yuk. I unsuccessfully looked for the owner so I took it home. I had no intentions of having another dog at that time. I had things to do and they didn't include a dog. It turned out that the dog was a white German shepherd that liked doing what ever I was doing. I had had many other dogs but I marveled at how intelligent this dog was even as a pup. It jogged with me, walked through down town Brattleboro, VT (filled with more strange people than anywhere else on earth). She and I would sit in the woods near my house and watch fox, skunk, raccoon, deer and an occasional bear. I started taking her on over night hikes on the Long Trail. She quickly learned to not drink from water sources until I gave the command. While she liked people she just walked by them when we were hiking. She never showed any interest in wandering off when we were in the woods. Training her for hiking was just a matter of me communicating what I wanted her to do. The thing that was the hardest thing for her to learn was to role over. That took a week. She made hiking the AT look easy...that included coming down DragonToothMountain with her pack on, on her own. She actually demonstrated to other AT dogs how to deal with cow styles. I've gotten rides from people who wouldn't have stopped for me without her. We always found a room in any town. When nervous and jerky people ask what kind of dog she is I say she is a mutt. Which is true because her nose is pink instead of the AKC black. She and I have hardly been apart at all since I found her. We've traveled and done lots of stuff and she was never a burden or inconvenience. Her hiking days are over and it's all about making her senior years as good as she's made our many adventures of the last 11 years.
I hope your story works out this well.

superman
03-23-2008, 14:39
Oops, I started by taking her on over night hikes on the Long Trail and we end to ended the Long Trail in "99." I felt that she was fully trained for the AT in 2000.

CrumbSnatcher
03-23-2008, 14:51
TOO YOUNG FOR ANY DOG!!!!!
Just watched a couple at Neel's Gap make arrangements to send their 2 dogs home from the there on a just started thru because it was too much for the dogs and they were 10 months old.

geekgeek are you on the trail?

sansancc
03-23-2008, 15:46
I was not planning on taking her until new season, when she's fully trained

CrumbSnatcher
03-23-2008, 16:01
I was not planning on taking her until new season, when she's fully trained
I'D BE MORE CONCERNED THAT HER BONES(AND SUCH) ARE FULLY DEVELOPED MORE THAN HER BEING TRAINED! AND I DISPISE BACKPACKS FOR DOGS. CARRY HER WEIGHT imo

The Weasel
03-23-2008, 16:41
I think you need to reflect even more about leaving your dog behind because of its breed.

Pitbulls are not "nasty" but they are both intense in their human/dog bonding and incredibly defensive/protective of their pack, of which you are the "lead dog." Things that are out of the ordinary can stress them and make it harder for them to hold back aggression. Frankly, a stranger coming out of the woods only a hundred feet or so in front of you - which is what the trail is like, with its twists and turns and ups and downs - can be very threatening to a dog, and the appearance of one, with a huge pack making her/him seem more massive, combined with very strange smells of a hiker after days on the trail, can be difficult for your dog.

Additionally, if you are determined to do this, I would have a significantg number of hikes in similar terrain on leash so your dog became familiar with animal smells that you may not even notice, and kept its training. This is minimum famliarization; trail smells for dogs are NOT the same as "in town" smells.

I'm not sure you realize how much work is going to be involved in having a dog like yours on the trail, both in advance and on the trail itself, in order to take care of your dog and make sure there are no problems.

TW

smokymtnsteve
03-23-2008, 17:55
I think you need to reflect even more about leaving your dog behind because of its breed.

Pitbulls are not "nasty" but they are both intense in their human/dog bonding and incredibly defensive/protective of their pack, of which you are the "lead dog." Things that are out of the ordinary can stress them and make it harder for them to hold back aggression. Frankly, a stranger coming out of the woods only a hundred feet or so in front of you - which is what the trail is like, with its twists and turns and ups and downs - can be very threatening to a dog, and the appearance of one, with a huge pack making her/him seem more massive, combined with very strange smells of a hiker after days on the trail, can be difficult for your dog.

Additionally, if you are determined to do this, I would have a significantg number of hikes in similar terrain on leash so your dog became familiar with animal smells that you may not even notice, and kept its training. This is minimum famliarization; trail smells for dogs are NOT the same as "in town" smells.

I'm not sure you realize how much work is going to be involved in having a dog like yours on the trail, both in advance and on the trail itself, in order to take care of your dog and make sure there are no problems.

TW

your thoughts on my wolf hybrid dog?

The Weasel
03-23-2008, 18:11
Steve, you know my thoughts. First, Alaska is a great place for it. Second, it's probably a twin to my wife's daughter's dog, Duke, who is a joy. Third, bring him to the AT...on a leash, 24/7. And stay out of shelters.

Winter over, yet?

TW

smokymtnsteve
03-23-2008, 18:16
not in Fairbanks, it wuz -10 f when we left Friday morning, but very spring like here in SOL, temps in +40's and the Aspens are budding.

put my doggie on a leash???...

The Weasel
03-23-2008, 18:20
not in Fairbanks, it wuz -10 f when we left Friday morning, but very spring like here in SOL, temps in +40's and the Aspens are budding.

put my doggie on a leash???...

Yes, a big huge honkin' leash. Duke's is 1" thick nylon rope, 2500 lb. test. It MIGHT be enough. He's about 120#, gorgeous, totally Southern California personality (imagine a wolf hybrid with a surfer personality.....duuuuuude), could pack more than me probably. Yes, a leash. Wouldn't want to risk anything happening to him.

TW

smokymtnsteve
03-23-2008, 18:23
we use a chain...he can bite thrua leash in less than a second

UberPest
03-23-2008, 19:06
we use a chain...he can bite thrua leash in less than a second

Not to sound snarky or anything, but why not just teach him not to bite at the leash? I've seen plenty of Malamutes (and Newfoundlands and other giant breeds) in the size range of your boy walked on thin show leads and never saw anyone have a problem with their dogs. I can walk either of my Catahoulas on 1/4" show leads for several days on end and never have any problem with them biting through or snapping the leash. Neither of my dogs is tiny-- Beau is 80# and Tomi is 75#. My thought is if these "big" dogs can be walked on a shoestring of a show lead without incident, surely your large dog could be walked on something more comfortable to handle than a chain.

Of course, there is also the dog lock (http://www.ruffwear.com/DogLock-Locking-Leash?sc=2&category=15)....

smokymtnsteve
03-23-2008, 19:16
mayB because he grew up wild and free in the Alaska range? jist like my girlfriend...she's bad about biting thru leashes too

Deadeye
03-23-2008, 21:05
Hope I don't see you.

Phreak
03-23-2008, 21:13
Pits are awesome dogs and VERY easy to train. I'm currently training an 8-month old Pit for the trail for a friend.

PM me and I can help you out with the training.

shelterbuilder
03-23-2008, 21:14
Not to sound snarky or anything, but why not just teach him not to bite at the leash? I've seen plenty of Malamutes (and Newfoundlands and other giant breeds) in the size range of your boy walked on thin show leads and never saw anyone have a problem with their dogs. I can walk either of my Catahoulas on 1/4" show leads for several days on end and never have any problem with them biting through or snapping the leash. Neither of my dogs is tiny-- Beau is 80# and Tomi is 75#. My thought is if these "big" dogs can be walked on a shoestring of a show lead without incident, surely your large dog could be walked on something more comfortable to handle than a chain.

Of course, there is also the dog lock (http://www.ruffwear.com/DogLock-Locking-Leash?sc=2&category=15)....

I guess that she doesn't have much experience with "Call of the Wild" types, eh Steve? (I have siberian sled dogs here in Pa. - mine routinely chew through their welded wire crates in the house! :eek:)

double j
03-23-2008, 22:20
i own a pit and would not own any other type of dog heres a pic of mine

Phreak
03-23-2008, 22:25
i own a pit and would not own any other type of dog heres a pic of mine
Great pics.

desdemona
03-24-2008, 00:19
Pitbulls can be the sweetest of dogs. There is an insanity in all the dog breed specific laws around the country, since the most popular dog is the one that bites the most. Most of the problem with them is people either they breed them wrong or train them for meanness.

Take them (if old enough) but make sure you have a leash they will walk on as some people are undoubtedly prejudiced.


--des

UberPest
03-24-2008, 07:14
I guess that she doesn't have much experience with "Call of the Wild" types, eh Steve? (I have siberian sled dogs here in Pa. - mine routinely chew through their welded wire crates in the house! :eek:)

Yeah, my uncle had a Timber Wolf cross (he says with Husky, but for the size I'd say Mal) who he never had a problem walking on a regular leash. A friend of mine currently has a Red Wolf cross that she can handle with a regular leash as well as loose on her acreage (she's in her late 50's/early 60's). Regardless of the background on the animal you still have to train them, especially if you're going to take them in public, which includes being on the trail.

Shoot, the folks at Wolf Packs (the dog pack company) had a wolf cross and they leashed her just fine with something as light as a Flexi.

I wouldn't be surprised about the crate escapers-- I had a 15 lb Basenji that was impossible to keep crated, even in plastic airline kennels. I didn't think about using zip ties instead of bolts until after she passed away (we lost her a year ago at around 15). Wire cages really aren't meant for chewing dogs.

smokymtnsteve
03-24-2008, 21:18
I like to keep my dog wild and free...plus the wild wolves have been eating chained and leashed dogs in my neck of the woods this winter.

Jim Adams
03-24-2008, 21:29
geek are you on the trail?


I WISH!!!!!
just down south for some St. Patrick's Day trail magic.:sun

geek

NorthCountryWoods
03-26-2008, 13:29
I think you need to reflect even more about leaving your dog behind because of its breed.

Pitbulls are not "nasty" but they are both intense in their human/dog bonding and incredibly defensive/protective of their pack, of which you are the "lead dog." Things that are out of the ordinary can stress them and make it harder for them to hold back aggression. Frankly, a stranger coming out of the woods only a hundred feet or so in front of you - which is what the trail is like, with its twists and turns and ups and downs - can be very threatening to a dog, and the appearance of one, with a huge pack making her/him seem more massive, combined with very strange smells of a hiker after days on the trail, can be difficult for your dog.

Additionally, if you are determined to do this, I would have a significantg number of hikes in similar terrain on leash so your dog became familiar with animal smells that you may not even notice, and kept its training. This is minimum famliarization; trail smells for dogs are NOT the same as "in town" smells.

I'm not sure you realize how much work is going to be involved in having a dog like yours on the trail, both in advance and on the trail itself, in order to take care of your dog and make sure there are no problems.

TW

Trolling the dog forums now?

Read this (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16259) yet?

superman
03-26-2008, 13:56
Trolling the dog forums now?

Read this (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16259) yet?

With a policy statement like that it's surprising that Whiteblaze has gotten the reputation for being anti-dog. How could that happen? It isn't that way out on the trails. I've been out there on lots of trails and never encountered the attitudes that are on Whiteblaze. Maybe it's just a coincidence?:-?

Phreak
03-26-2008, 16:15
It isn't that way out on the trails. I've been out there on lots of trails and never encountered the attitudes that are on Whiteblaze. Maybe it's just a coincidence?:-?

A few on here think they speak for the masses. No biggie, I hike with my dogs regardless of what the sniffers on here have to say.

leeki pole
03-26-2008, 16:38
Pitbulls can be the sweetest of dogs. There is an insanity in all the dog breed specific laws around the country, since the most popular dog is the one that bites the most. Most of the problem with them is people either they breed them wrong or train them for meanness.

Take them (if old enough) but make sure you have a leash they will walk on as some people are undoubtedly prejudiced.


--des
So you're saying a Labrador Retriever is more likely to bite than a Pit Bull?:confused:

Phreak
03-26-2008, 16:40
So you're saying a Labrador Retriever is more likely to bite than a Pit Bull?:confused:

Naa, but a Pit Bull is no more likely to bite than any other breed.

NorthCountryWoods
03-26-2008, 16:55
So you're saying a Labrador Retriever is more likely to bite than a Pit Bull?:confused:

Actually, I think that statistically, the black lab is responsible for the largest amount of attacks on humans.

Pitbulls just do more damage.

Feral Bill
03-27-2008, 00:46
Actually, I think that statistically, the black lab is responsible for the largest amount of attacks on humans.

Pitbulls just do more damage.

Do you have any hard data to back that up?

desdemona
03-27-2008, 02:04
So you're saying a Labrador Retriever is more likely to bite than a Pit Bull?:confused:


Not at all. I can't find the stats. But it is kind of related to the how many of what breed dogs there are. There are many more labs and golden retrievers than there are Pits, so consequently there are more bites. Around here, there are a lot of chihuahuas. I'd guess they bite a lot but don't leave many big dents. :)

I am also guessing that the Pit could potentially have quite a serious bite. But the thing is probably 98% of them don't bite. There are dog fighting rackets and that sort of thing though, and some of these dogs end up in rescue as well. There are bad owners and breeders. I think they give the dog the reputation they have. It isn't fair but what is.

All dogs could potentially bite, which is why you socialize them and take any kind of aggression, however cute or minor it might look at the time, seriously. Anyone with a dog with minor people aggression issues should look into a program called "Nothing in Life is Free". Dog aggression is another kind of issue.




--des

Jimmers
03-27-2008, 02:20
I hate to say it, especially since I've known a lot of put bulls that were absolute sissy dogs, but the statistics are definately against pit bulls. They not only bite a lot more than other dogs, they're also more likely to cause serious injury or death. At least that's what reports like this one (http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf) say.

NorthCountryWoods
03-27-2008, 06:07
Do you have any hard data to back that up?

Here's one for human deaths by breed, which isn't favorable to Pit bulls-

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf


I thought it was on the same site, but I can't find it now. It was minor bites with no deaths and had black labs & german shepards fighting for tops on the list.

dixicritter
03-27-2008, 08:20
Folks we seem to have strayed from the topic of this thread quite a bit. The opening poster was asking for advice on training methods... not asking how many humans pits attack each year. Lets get back on topic please. Thank you for your cooperation.

sansancc
03-27-2008, 11:04
Thank you dixicrtter, you Read my mind. Anyone have any good methods of training they would like to share or should I look elce where?

NorthCountryWoods
03-27-2008, 11:17
Sorry I contributed to the hijack.

My rescued pit mix is the worst behaved dog on the planet, so he's always leashed, but the shelter we got him from offered training classes as part of the adoption.

You could try the local humane society or animal shelter. They hold free (or moderately priced) obedience classes open to the public.

superman
03-27-2008, 11:53
Thank you dixicrtter, you Read my mind. Anyone have any good methods of training they would like to share or should I look elce where?

There's some folks on here that are very knowlegable about dog training. I can tell you what I did but, in truth, Winter has always made me look better than I am.

Wise Old Owl
03-27-2008, 12:50
Cassandra,

I doubt you will get to read this page, but I will put this out there, My best help came from renting training videos from the library! If you have the time, include a family member to aid in the training. I included all my family in the front yard for about 20 minutes per day on various commands and techniques that really made a difference with everyone. Here we are 8 months later and the extended family now accepts my dog and me. I also used cheaper cheese puffs broken in half than dog training treats. Good Luck

Seems every dog thread here gets off topic

superman
03-27-2008, 13:01
Cassandra,

I doubt you will get to read this page, but I will put this out there, My best help came from renting training videos from the library! If you have the time, include a family member to aid in the training. I included all my family in the front yard for about 20 minutes per day on various commands and techniques that really made a difference with everyone. Here we are 8 months later and the extended family now accepts my dog and me. I also used cheaper cheese puffs broken in half than dog training treats. Good Luck

Seems every dog thread here gets off topic

Is she looking for general commands and tricks or is she asking for training for the AT?

Wise Old Owl
03-27-2008, 13:07
Superman, From what I read it was wide open for ideas in training.

superman
03-27-2008, 14:14
Superman, From what I read it was wide open for ideas in training.

Thanks, I don't have the time right now but latter I'll offer up what I did specically to prepare Winter for the AT. I know there are some folks that are better at it than me who can give her the basic dog training information for commands and behavior. It's kind of like building a house. There are lots of ways to build the same house but they all involve the same basics.

Jimmers
03-27-2008, 14:22
Ok, back on topic...:o

Here's a good website that has plenty of articles on training pits:http://www.pitbulllovers.com/american-pit-bull-terrier-training-articles.html
(http://www.pitbulllovers.com/american-pit-bull-terrier-training-articles.html)
If nothing else it's a good place to start, and the training should be just as valid for trail behaviors as any other.

desdemona
03-28-2008, 00:20
I use clicker training. I don't have a pit but it doesn't matter. Clickers work with any animal (I even trained my cats with it). Take a look at:
http://www.clickertraining.com


They have videos, books, clickers, and lots of educational material.

--des

superman
03-28-2008, 10:19
Maybe this was supposed to go this thread? It was supposed to be instructive but it turned into a ramble. There's a lot more that I could say but this rambles enough. I hope you find something of value in this. If you have any questions feel free.


When I found Winter in the middle of the road when she was 5 weeks old I did not intend to have another dog at that time. I had things to do and they didn't include "dog sitting." I'd had many dogs previously that I would not have wanted to hike, canoe or travel with. Not that they were bad dogs but they just weren't suited for those activities.
Hiking the At was left over old business that I wanted to get done. I almost hiked it in “68” when I came home from Vietnam but I married my ex-wife instead. My sons had moved away and were on there own. I found that I had some money, the time, the desire and I was free of my responsibilities. Since no one was going to come and claim the dog my son named her Winter. When you name a dog it's yours so I thought about what I needed Winter to be in order to hike the AT. She house trained so fast it's hard to remember when she wasn't. I used to go to the same restaurant for breakfast every weekend and I'd save my bacon for Winter, who was waiting in my car. She learned all the usual commands (sit, stay, come, lie down, jump, roll over, heel, speak) on the lawn of the restaurant. It got to be a ritual the people in the restaurant filled the windows to watch. When I was training Winter the people who came out made a point of coming over and shaking Winter's paw. Winter was such a ham meeting people it occurred to me that socialization would be a big issue while hiking. So I began walking Winter through down town Brattleboro, VT which has more strange people than most places. Winter and I also sat on a bank near my house that over looked a field and just watched the various animals, fox, raccoon, deer, bear, birds and what ever else used that field. The next thing was to do some day hikes, then over night hikes and finally we started hiking the Long Trail. I didn't intend to hike the whole thing but it just worked out that way. I used to read Wing Foot's site and knew the list of evils to avoid with a dog. We stayed in a shelter alone right in the beginning and my sinuses locked right up. Winter and I tented from then on.
The people we met liked Winter too much. They wanted to feed her stuff she shouldn’t have. The young guys wanted to play too rough. I learned fast to watch out for Winter with friendly hikers for Winter’s sake. We never met an unfriendly hiker but a lot of people just don’t know how to behave with a dog. When we hike, so many people expect Winter to come to them and socialize, some would even kneel down, and Winter would just walk by. When Winter is hiking, she’s hiking. I didn’t teach her that…she just did it.
To teach her to drink on command I used hiking sticks. Every time we came to a non-people water source I blocked Winter with my sticks and said stay. I’d wait a minute and say “drink” as I took the sticks away. It didn’t take long and Winter would wait for me to say “drink.” This works great but a caution is that if you hike with someone’s dog who just runs up and starts drinking; Winter figured it was ok to drink. When we resumed hiking alone she resumed waiting to drink. All this was to train her to not drink from human sources. She gave me enough time to whip out her bowl and get her water.
It is not uncommon for dogs to stop eating on a long hike. I do the same thing only not as much as Winter. I carried sardines, tuna fish, beef jerky and other treats to get her eating. She and I shared the treats.

scavenger
03-28-2008, 11:20
Just yesterday on a trail here, a smallish woman was walking her pitbull, it charged at my shy little beagle trying to bite her.

The pitbull's owner was helplessly knocked over and dragged by her snarling dog. I had to kick the pit and grab its pronged choke collar and choke the **** out of it until the idiot owner got back on her feet.

That ever happens again, the pit will just get my knife to the back of its neck. Keep your agressive dogs off public trails.

scavenger
03-28-2008, 11:34
And note I said "agressive dogs" not "pit bulls" though in my experience the latter always fits the former...

superman
03-28-2008, 11:51
And note I said "agressive dogs" not "pit bulls" though in my experience the latter always fits the former...

Your right and socializing doesn't happen by accident. Dogs need to be able to spend time with different dogs, animals and people. I was down in Florida visiting one of the guys I hiked the AT with. He took us to a dog park. It was an amazing thing to see how all the different breeds play together. There must have been 100 dogs of all types and there were no dog problems. It's a matter of exposing your dogs to situations that they will encounter on the trail in advance so they won't have to fall back on their baser instincts. Some dogs simply don't have and won't have the temperament or behavior to be on any trail (like some people). A well-trained, socialized dog is a joy anywhere (like people).

leeki pole
03-28-2008, 12:33
Superman, you're absolutely correct. When my daughter brought her Lab down for me to dogsit while she was out of town, she got to run with my pack ( I have three) off leash on the back 40. Her dog had a blast and she hadn't been around other dogs much. When my daughter came to pick her dog up, she asked me what kind of drugs I was giving her :D, since she'd never seen her pup so calm and submissive. Socialization and training are paramount.

superman
03-28-2008, 14:28
Superman, you're absolutely correct. When my daughter brought her Lab down for me to dogsit while she was out of town, she got to run with my pack ( I have three) off leash on the back 40. Her dog had a blast and she hadn't been around other dogs much. When my daughter came to pick her dog up, she asked me what kind of drugs I was giving her :D, since she'd never seen her pup so calm and submissive. Socialization and training are paramount.
Plus your daughters lab was happy because it got to run in a pack. Plus it got exercise it may not always get. A lot of folks don't have a back 40 to run and romp in. Dogs need regular daily exercise (like people). Hiking is great for most dogs. The AT would be better with more dogs, less people and no shelters.:D

desdemona
03-29-2008, 02:04
Socialization is really important. Any time I see a situation that Torie hasn't experienced we go for it. One time it was people in walkers. Last week it was kites. These guys were doing fighting kites and I realized she had never seen such a thing. We got closer and watched, which was quite fun for both of us. (Maybe for different reasons though.)


--des

oldfivetango
03-29-2008, 08:47
Traing tip?You want a training tip?
How's about this-train the the owner to bring and the
dog to wear a muzzle!

When the doggie wears a muzzle he cannot bite!
If he cannot bite then all those guys&gals out there
packing heat will not feel intimidated and shoot the
little doggie for growling/intimidating/biting them.
And this could save the owners some serious litigation
dollars later.

Seriously,I would have to put anyone who wants to
bring the breed of dog with the fiercest reputation in
America along on the trail to interact with and intimidate
innocent strangers in the exact same category as those
who would wear a big hawg leg of a pistol in a shoulder
holster.

Get the analogy?
Hope I didn't hijack this thread-note the training tip.
Oldfivetango

chief
03-29-2008, 14:58
Oops, I started by taking her on over night hikes on the Long Trail and we end to ended the Long Trail in "99." I felt that she was fully trained for the AT in 2000.I can attest to AT2000, Winter is one fine hiking dog!

scout005
03-30-2008, 19:49
Jeez, pit bulls on the AT. Unbelievable. A lawsuit waiting to happen.

Phreak
03-30-2008, 20:37
Jeez, pit bulls on the AT. Unbelievable. A lawsuit waiting to happen.

I'm curious, have you ever spent any time around a pit? People often fear what they don't understand.

As a dog trainer, if I had to choose only one breed to work with, the bully breeds (pits, stafs, am stafs) would be at the top of my list. Extremely easy to train and very loyal and affectionate.

The Weasel
03-30-2008, 21:24
Phreak:

I have to say that the bull breeds and their close kin concern me for the reasons that they are attractive as pets: Yes, they are very trainable, and loyal. They also seem to me to be very protective against strangers, and the only time I was actually attacked on my thru attempt was by a pair of bulls (boxers, which are bull relative) Given that the AT is a sensory wild time for a dog in every way, what do you do to minimize aggression that comes from 'defending' their own turf/owner, even when the owner doesn't need it defended? Or haven't you seen that happen?

(PS to North: No, this isn't a "don't bring your dog" thingy, so don't start on me. If I didn't want the answer to those questions, I wouldn't be asking them. Go flame elsewhere. :p)

TW

dixicritter
03-30-2008, 21:28
(PS to North: No, this isn't a "don't bring your dog" thingy, so don't start on me. If I didn't want the answer to those questions, I wouldn't be asking them. Go flame elsewhere. :p)

TW

TW

Stop adding these comments to your posts in this forum. Thank you.

Phreak
03-30-2008, 21:46
Phreak:

I have to say that the bull breeds and their close kin concern me for the reasons that they are attractive as pets: Yes, they are very trainable, and loyal. They also seem to me to be very protective against strangers, and the only time I was actually attacked on my thru attempt was by a pair of bulls (boxers, which are bull relative) Given that the AT is a sensory wild time for a dog in every way, what do you do to minimize aggression that comes from 'defending' their own turf/owner, even when the owner doesn't need it defended? Or haven't you seen that happen?

(PS to North: No, this isn't a "don't bring your dog" thingy, so don't start on me. If I didn't want the answer to those questions, I wouldn't be asking them. Go flame elsewhere. :p)

TW

TW,
A properly trained dog doesn't feel the need to 'defend their turf/owner'. This behavior comes from lazy and/or ignorant owners who allow their dogs to run the house. Every dog breed will react this way if not properly controlled by their owner. If the owner has properly assumed the "alpha role", then the dog will look to the owner for protection.

Every dog has a different learning curve. Suzi was quick to learn and it only took a few days on the trail to correct her protective nature.

Maggie, on the other hand, took roughly 200 hours of trail training to get her to where she was submissive and not weary or scared of strangers. She was abused as a puppy, so she was very afraid of people. She has since did a 180 and loves people, on and off the trail.

I totally agree that not every dog should be on the AT or any other public trail. But there are a lot of well-behaved dogs on the trail, and I fear too many people have one bad experience and feel all dogs should be banned from the trail.

Like they say, "Punish the deed, not the breed". All dogs can be loving and submissive or taught to be aggressive and a real pain in the arse. It all falls on the owner, as dogs are a product of their environment.

Ok, I'm getting off my soap box now. :D

The Weasel
03-30-2008, 22:18
Like they say, "Punish the deed, not the breed". All dogs can be loving and submissive or taught to be aggressive and a real pain in the arse. It all falls on the owner, as dogs are a product of their environment.

Ok, I'm getting off my soap box now. :D

Climb back up.

Phreak, take this exactly as said, since I'm being extremely careful but candid in how I ask it:

I'm willing to assume you're correct about your dog. But here are three questions: (1) What did you do to accomplish that, i.e. more than say "some owners are lazy," can you give some indication of what's necessary? (2) How do others on the trail distinguish between those who have done what you have done and others who haven't (beyond saying, "Wow! Didn't get bit!), since virtually every dog owner I've met on the trail has said, after an unfortunate incident, "Wow! Sparky NEVER did THAT before!" (3) There are temperment differences between breeds; what temperment issues do you see with pit bulls that need different work from, say, Labs or Setters? (4) Here's the toughie: Under what circumstances, if any, do you think that a bull owner should leave their dog home?

TW

superman
03-31-2008, 07:51
I can attest to AT2000, Winter is one fine hiking dog!

Thanks Chief, for all the time, effort and training I put into Winter it wouldn't have been anything if Winter hadn't had the intelligence, temperment and personality she does. Maybe if I did that much for myself I'd be as good a person as Winter thinks I am...no chance?:)

Phreak
03-31-2008, 08:50
Climb back up.

Phreak, take this exactly as said, since I'm being extremely careful but candid in how I ask it:

I'm willing to assume you're correct about your dog. But here are three questions: (1) What did you do to accomplish that, i.e. more than say "some owners are lazy," can you give some indication of what's necessary?
Training, training and training. I have a lot of clients who own aggressive dogs, and I hear the same old story - "it's just easier to let the dog have his/her way than go through all the work of properly training them". These include labs, goldens, poodles, yorkies, hounds, rotties, etc. It's not easy to train some dogs, but once they are trained, but it makes owning them a hell of a lot easier and more enjoyable.

(2) How do others on the trail distinguish between those who have done what you have done and others who haven't (beyond saying, "Wow! Didn't get bit!), since virtually every dog owner I've met on the trail has said, after an unfortunate incident, "Wow! Sparky NEVER did THAT before!"It's about learning to read the body language of the dog(s). How are they holding their tail, ears, are they making eye contact or not. The best thing you can do when encountering a dog on the trail is show no fear and project a strong and confident energy. Dogs can sense when one is nervous, and can act upon it. It's their natural instinct to dominate the weaker ones.

(3) There are temperment differences between breeds; what temperment issues do you see with pit bulls that need different work from, say, Labs or Setters?The only difference 'tween a bully breed and any other dogs is they are the strongest, possess the highest endurance, and have the strongest bite of any breed. It's not that they have any different temperament than any other breed, it's they can cause a lot more bodily harm if they aren't properly trained. In years past, the big concern was Dobermans, Rotties, and Chows. They were the most popular breeds at the time, and hence the increase in attacks by these dogs. Now bully breeds have increased in popularity, and it doesn't help when you have arse holes like Vick having a fight ring make national news.

(4) Here's the toughie: Under what circumstances, if any, do you think that a bull owner should leave their dog home? I would say the following applies to ANY dog breed, a bully or not. If you're dog isn't properly trained at home, then please do NOT bring him/her on the trail. I know an untrained dog can cause a lot of issues on the trail, but they cause just as many issues around the city they live in. I tell my clients to start by taking their dog(s) to local parks and work with the dog until they can walk comfortably without it going after anything that moves, including people, dogs, wildlife, strollers, bikes, rollerbladers, etc. Once they reach this point, they can start with short hikes on a trail and continue to reinforce the same training. Once they can hike all day and have no incidents, then move on to overnights, etc.

Training a dog is a lot like a spoiled child. Once you start the training, the behavior always gets worse before it gets better. Once a dog has the taste of being the 'alpha', they are NOT quick to give up that power. But once you have established yourself as the 'alpha', it is very easy to maintain your status. Being the alpha is a lot of work for a dog. You'll find once a dog has been reduced to a 'beta' (part of the pack), he/she will be a lot more relaxed, submissive and be happier dogs. They no longer have the responsibility of protecting you and your personal space, and can let their guard down and just enjoy being a dog.

Also, lack of an outlet for their energy is the biggest issue for negative behavior in all dog breeds. If they don't have a structured avenue, they'll find way to release the energy and it's always something negative such as aggression, digging, barking, chewing, etc.

A tired dog is a well-behaved dog.

The Weasel
03-31-2008, 14:25
It's about learning to read the body language of the dog(s). How are they holding their tail, ears, are they making eye contact or not. The best thing you can do when encountering a dog on the trail is show no fear and project a strong and confident energy. Dogs can sense when one is nervous, and can act upon it. It's their natural instinct to dominate the weaker ones.

***

I would say the following applies to ANY dog breed, a bully or not. If you're dog isn't properly trained at home, then please do NOT bring him/her on the trail. I know an untrained dog can cause a lot of issues on the trail, but they cause just as many issues around the city they live in. I tell my clients to start by taking their dog(s) to local parks and work with the dog until they can walk comfortably without it going after anything that moves, including people, dogs, wildlife, strollers, bikes, rollerbladers, etc. Once they reach this point, they can start with short hikes on a trail and continue to reinforce the same training. Once they can hike all day and have no incidents, then move on to overnights, etc.




Phreak, thanks...all of your post was good. I have a few more thoughts for you, since you seem to do this a lot.

My question about "how do you tell if a dog is adequately trained" was more from the perspective of non-owners: Here's a real live example: I'm hiking down the trail, along a ridgeline about 5 miles from any trailhead. About 50 yards ahead I see a woman about 15-20 feet off the trail with a large black dog, breed indeterminate. Her dog is sitting, but clearly not leashed. As I get closer, the dog growls, raises its hackles, but stands up, but doesn't approach me (yet!). The woman calls to me and says, "Don't worry, he won't do anything," although he is still aggressive in his stance. How can I tell if this dog is going to be physically aggressive or not, i.e. how can a non-owner know if a dog really has been trained (such as yours) or not.

I think this is one of the key questions for pretty much anyone around this issue: There are two kinds of dog owners, the first (as you appear to be) with fully/safely trained dogs who really are a minimal risk to others, and the other group, who think their dogs are fully trained but really aren't. (It's this latter group that can be identified after-the-fact by how they say, "Sparky never did THAT before!") Both groups say the same things, and may even believe it. I'm not sure (short of seeing a trained alert dog's vest on it) that there's a way to know which is which. (Yeah, I know, the ones that don't eat you are the safe ones!)

But seriously, any suggestions for "others" about how to tell which is which?

TW

smokymtnsteve
03-31-2008, 17:29
My dog a wolf hybrid would just eat the pitbull

superman
03-31-2008, 18:03
Socialization is really important. Any time I see a situation that Torie hasn't experienced we go for it. One time it was people in walkers. Last week it was kites. These guys were doing fighting kites and I realized she had never seen such a thing. We got closer and watched, which was quite fun for both of us. (Maybe for different reasons though.)


--des

Hiking the AT with a dog is a lot of repetition. Day after day you do pretty much the same thing...sleep, eat, pack up, hike, snack, hike, lunch, hike, snack, eat, make camp, sleep. Even town stops develop a routine. Dog, rests, eats, watches animal planet, etc while person does chores and pigs out with pooch. Even meeting people along the trail gets into a routine of rapid-fire conversation in under 5 minutes. Winter sat off to the side but let me know when it was time to hike on. When hikers would join us for multiple days they were accepted as one of Winter's people and it was her job to keep track of us. I hesitate to mention that if you haven't finished training your dog before your hike there is plenty of repetition on the trail to finish it. That should not be taken as a substitute for training your dog before your hike.
Winter came nose to nose with skunk and porcupine. They didn't bother Winter and Winter didn't bother them. Numerous times Winter walked over poisonous and non-poisonous snakes. They ignored Winter and Winter seemed to not notice them. On one occasion I looked up as Winter was walking over a copperhead. I made an involuntary gasp and Winter walked back over the snake. The snake simply moved off the trail. One time Winter walked up on a fawn that was laying down right on the edge of the AT. The fawn bolted right in front of Winter and Winter just watched it run off. On another incident a black bear cub crossed about 10' in front of Winter. Winter leaned forward and her back hair stood up. I whispered, "Stay." Winter eased back and relaxed with the cub running in front of her. The momma bear was in the woods off to our right. I whispered, "Come" and we eased back in the direction we'd come. This is being socialized to other animals.
Having said all that...the goal for me in training and socializing Winter was for her to not be overwhelmed by new situations.

superman
03-31-2008, 18:29
FWIW, I keep forgetting to mention this item. When Winter and I started going through fields with cows the cows saw Winter as a threat. They were actually coming after her. To hide Winter tucked in right up close behind me. It was amazing in that it was as if Winter had become invisible to them. The cows just ignored us and went back to grazing.

Grumpy5280
03-31-2008, 19:19
Trained dogs on Trail = OK + Safe.
Untrained dogs = Not OK + Dangerous.

Trained people = OK.
Untrained people = Dangerous.

Calm dogs = OK. Calm people = OK
Scared dogs (seeing threat) = Dangerous.
Scared people (seeing threat of threatening dog) = Dangerous.

Hate to see a child mauled by a wistful owner who "thought I had him trained well enough."

Dogs have about the intelligence of a 3 year-old. They WILL defy their owners when not under close supervision. Always have command of your dog. Can't let it run free, snoop around. It may see an animal, (or threatening human) and react in a way it never has before.

Train, Train, Train. Train on trails. Train in the rain. Train in the morning and evening. On trails. Train in the mountains, along streams, rocks, etc. Train at trailheads. Then train at shelters. Always, always, always have command of your dog. One slip, and a tragedy could occur, especially with a bully dog with known aggressive temperament.

Bringing said dog on the trail sets you up as negligent from the word "Go."

That dog had better be impeccably trained, and you had better have it under control 100% of the time.

superman
03-31-2008, 19:48
Trained dogs on Trail = OK + Safe.
Untrained dogs = Not OK + Dangerous.

Trained people = OK.
Untrained people = Dangerous.

Calm dogs = OK. Calm people = OK
Scared dogs (seeing threat) = Dangerous.
Scared people (seeing threat of threatening dog) = Dangerous.

Hate to see a child mauled by a wistful owner who "thought I had him trained well enough."

Dogs have about the intelligence of a 3 year-old. They WILL defy their owners when not under close supervision. Always have command of your dog. Can't let it run free, snoop around. It may see an animal, (or threatening human) and react in a way it never has before.

Train, Train, Train. Train on trails. Train in the rain. Train in the morning and evening. On trails. Train in the mountains, along streams, rocks, etc. Train at trailheads. Then train at shelters. Always, always, always have command of your dog. One slip, and a tragedy could occur, especially with a bully dog with known aggressive temperament.

Bringing said dog on the trail sets you up as negligent from the word "Go."

That dog had better be impeccably trained, and you had better have it under control 100% of the time.

I agree but I also feel the same way about people. I've had a lot more people try to kill me than dogs.

desdemona
03-31-2008, 23:22
Hiking the AT with a dog is a lot of repetition. Day after day you do pretty much the same thing...sleep, eat, pack up, hike, snack, hike, lunch, hike, snack, eat, make camp, sleep. Even town stops develop a routine. Dog, rests, eats, watches animal planet, etc while person does chores and pigs out with pooch. Even meeting people along ...
Winter came nose to nose with skunk and porcupine. They didn't bother Winter and Winter didn't bother them. Numerous times Winter walked over =aving said all that...the goal for me in training and socializing Winter was for her to not be overwhelmed by new situations.


That might go for any hiking. It's routine to Torie too. The smells are always an adventure I would guess. :)
Still I'd agree that the goal is to not be overwhelmed by something you can't predict.

Winter sounds like a great companion.

People always worry about the wrong thing, imo. I think your travels are likely to be safe, and that most of the time dogs (and even that dangerous animal human)are going to be well-behaved. The most dangerous part of the hike is probably the car ride to the trailhead.


--des

superman
04-01-2008, 09:08
Before I hiked the AT I looked on line for any "how to" help but all I got was the anti-dog flaming on Wingfoot's site. Winter and I had to figure most of it out for ourselves. Wingfoot's site was useful in hearing what people objected to the most about dogs on the trail. The anti-dog rants don't do anything constructive or instructive. Taking the flame out of the information the objections that people have are as follows:
1. safety/invasion of space for their person and their gear
2. Shelter concerns with a dog
3. Water source concerns
If you deal with just these issues you will have a very positive hike. IMHO, the people on this site who are asking questions about how to hike with a dog are not apt to be the problem people. It's the ones who simply don't care how their dog acts, and don't ask, that are more apt to be a problem. Meeting question with a wall of negatives is not going to help the situation here or on any trail. Dogs are a reality on trails as are cell phones. I feel that cell phones are more offensive to me than dogs. That includes that dog that started the AT in 2000 that nipped at anyone it was near. The owner would simply say "well, that's just the way dogs are." I told him "no, that's the way untrained dogs are." Everyone, including the dog, is happier when the dog is trained. The people who come on this site should be welcomed and encouraged to get useful information that may improve everyone's hike. I'm just trying to pass on some of our experiences for what ever they are worth. There is a difference in thru hiking with a dog and doing a weekend. I'd like to hear from more people who have thru hiked with their dogs.

The Weasel
04-02-2008, 18:24
Super --

There are also a few concerns by people who are concerned about the wildlife effect that dogs on the trail can have, which is pretty much unavoidable by anyone with a dog (not much that can be done about it) and also some who are concerned for the dogs. A lot of people will inquire, more or less politely, about what the dog owner is doing to make sure the dog doesn't get injured, and so on. Dog owners need to think through dog safety pretty thoroughly (some really don't) both for the benefit of their dog as well as to be able to respond to questions/comments while on the trail.

TW

general
04-02-2008, 19:12
Super --

There are also a few concerns by people who are concerned about the wildlife effect that dogs on the trail can have, which is pretty much unavoidable by anyone with a dog

TW


i'm just curious. what does this statement mean? please explain.

general
04-02-2008, 19:15
i like the old school books for training dogs. i have a couple written in the 50's and 60's. really direct and to the point of training methods. you can pick em up on ebay for next to nothing.

The Weasel
04-02-2008, 20:45
i'm just curious. what does this statement mean? please explain.

General:

Dogs on a trail can have a negative effect on wildlife. Here's a link about Southern California that I just noted that has more links as well as some of the issues.

http://tchester.org/srp/lists/dogs.html

Dog owners need to do what they can to minimize things mentioned in this article and the others that can harm wildlife. That can include making sure there are current vaccinations for parvo and other diseases, and being able to discuss these issues with others.

I don't mention this to say, "Don't hike with dogs". That's another discussion for elsewhere. But people - like the author of that link - who do have dogs and hike responsibly know that it's a good thing to prevent problems.

TW

superman
04-03-2008, 13:08
General:

Dogs on a trail can have a negative effect on wildlife. Here's a link about Southern California that I just noted that has more links as well as some of the issues.

http://tchester.org/srp/lists/dogs.html

Dog owners need to do what they can to minimize things mentioned in this article and the others that can harm wildlife. That can include making sure there are current vaccinations for parvo and other diseases, and being able to discuss these issues with others.

I don't mention this to say, "Don't hike with dogs". That's another discussion for elsewhere. But people - like the author of that link - who do have dogs and hike responsibly know that it's a good thing to prevent problems.

TW

You've made your positions all too clear. You directly and indirectly hammer anyone who speaks in support of dogs but you’re not alone. There have been a small clique that have worked to make this an anti-dog site. The more you speak the less I can hear you. Have a nice day.

The Weasel
04-03-2008, 13:49
Superman:

Your post is very out of line. I was asked by General to "please explain" what I meant in an earlier post when I mentioned some things that hikers with dogs need to be prepared to discuss with others along the trail. I answered, making it clear that it's not anything about my feelings about dogs. I'm sorry you have such anger, but I'm honoring the thread and the forum, and will continue to do so. Please stop the harassment.

TW

The Weasel
04-03-2008, 13:52
i'm just curious. what does this statement mean? please explain.

General ---

Lest there be confusion, my point about "unavoidable" is that no matter what someone does to train their dog, wildlife impact, if any, is just something that will happen, so it's not something that someone can "train" a dog out of, at least totally (I'm not talking about predation/chasing animals, which I think is pretty minor), since dog scent, marking, and scat is inevitable just as it is with people.

TW

max patch
04-03-2008, 14:23
One may have the best trained dog in the world, however, it is a fact that cannot be disputed that bringing a dog with you on a hike negatively impacts everyone elses wilderness experience that you come across.

superman
04-03-2008, 15:25
One may have the best trained dog in the world, however, it is a fact that cannot be disputed that bringing a dog with you on a hike negatively impacts everyone elses wilderness experience that you come across.

There you go....

NorthCountryWoods
04-03-2008, 16:46
One may have the best trained dog in the world, however, it is a fact that cannot be disputed that bringing a dog with you on a hike negatively impacts everyone elses wilderness experience that you come across.

Really? :confused:

wrongway_08
04-03-2008, 17:19
One may have the best trained dog in the world, however, it is a fact that cannot be disputed that a trained dog dringing a owner as closed minded/unknowledgable as me negatively impacts everyone elses wilderness experience that you come across.

fixed it for you. :)

max patch
04-03-2008, 17:37
Wildlife will avoid areas where a dog is present. Thats a fact that can't be changed however one may feel about dogs on the trail.

What you can discuss, however, is what you can do as a dog owner to minimize your impact on others.

Nomad94
04-03-2008, 18:03
Wildlife will avoid areas where a dog is present. Thats a fact that can't be changed however one may feel about dogs on the trail.

What you can discuss, however, is what you can do as a dog owner to minimize your impact on others.

Wildlife avoids areas where people are present as well-- except when the people unwittingly domestic the wild population by feeding.

Next time I see St Francis I will have my dog give him a wide berth so the fauna can congregate. Until then... :sun

general
04-03-2008, 18:14
Wildlife will avoid areas where a dog is present. Thats a fact that can't be changed however one may feel about dogs on the trail.

What you can discuss, however, is what you can do as a dog owner to minimize your impact on others.

i might buy this theory a little if we were not talking about the AT, but we are. wildlife will avoid areas where people are present, especially the large numbers on the AT. how many times have you seen a bear (without a dog) and the bear came towards you after discovering your presence. i'll bet you a dollar to a donut that bear was running the other way after it saw, smelled, or heard you. the point that dogs adversely affect wildlife is irrevelant when there are large numbers of people involved as well. i've done my fair share of hiking with and without dogs. i honestly can't say that i've seen more or less wildlife either way. now, think about this too, in some states bears can be hunted using dogs. that bear, with his little itty bitty brain, may associate a dog with a hunter. even if that is so, it's not the dog the bear would be trying to avoid, it would be the hunter, or more specificly the high caliber piece of lead that will cause lead poisioning in that itty bitty brain. one more example; the park that i work in has quota hunts, for turkey, deer, and bear. when those hunts are not going on i see all three all over the place, mainly around one of the 11 food plots that i help maintain. when there is a hunt and there are lots of people in the woods that didn't used to be there, i see the majority of those animals in the safety zones where there are not people walking around. i'm not saying that those animals know that they are being hunted, but increased numbers of folks in the woods is out of the ordinary, that they can recognize. now say i take my dog for a walk in that same park not during hunting season, or anyone else and their dog. those deer, trukey, and bear could care less about me or my dog. they just keep doing their thing. now, i'm sure you can find a link somewhere out there to prove your point, and so could i, but here's the difference. my examples are from personal experience, which is all i can speak for, not my brother's wife's cousin's experience, or some web site somewhere (if it's on the net, it must be true), but my own. your theory is bs.

general
04-03-2008, 18:14
General ---

Lest there be confusion, my point about "unavoidable" is that no matter what someone does to train their dog, wildlife impact, if any, is just something that will happen, so it's not something that someone can "train" a dog out of, at least totally (I'm not talking about predation/chasing animals, which I think is pretty minor), since dog scent, marking, and scat is inevitable just as it is with people.

TW

see above post

Excitable Hiker
04-03-2008, 18:30
At least max patch got to post his remarks.

I won't repeat my initial posting since someone felt it was out of line and it never appeared. It contained no bad words or threats, however my feelings were made clear about how hikers with their dogs should behave. I also made it clear I did not want to be around pit bulls.

One sentence was a little cynical, but I've seen a lot worse here. You won't see a lot of posts from me.:mad:

superman
04-03-2008, 18:42
Superman:

Your post is very out of line. I was asked by General to "please explain" what I meant in an earlier post when I mentioned some things that hikers with dogs need to be prepared to discuss with others along the trail. I answered, making it clear that it's not anything about my feelings about dogs. I'm sorry you have such anger, but I'm honoring the thread and the forum, and will continue to do so. Please stop the harassment.

TW

No it isn't.

The Weasel
04-04-2008, 20:15
see above post

Gen ---

In this instance, I don't think it's an opinion that is just internet-everything. There is pretty-near unanimity that dogs have a negative effect on wildlife even in places like the AT. That means that people that hike with their dogs need to be aware of that and to do appropriate things to minimize those impacts. There are a lot of such things, and good owners try to do them. That's the point: People that deny there are problems are the ones that cause a lot of the anti-dog feeling; people that say, "Oh! Wow! Glad I know about that so I can do as much as possible to minimize those effects!" are the ones that make other people - me included - say, "Yeah, folks like you can bring dogs without any problem from me."

TW

dixicritter
04-04-2008, 21:10
Either get back to the topic of this thread which was to give training tips to the opening poster or I'm shutting it down. Last warning.

wannabeoutdoors
04-05-2008, 20:45
i have a pitbull and a lab we hike with. our pitbull will go all day long. the only problem is she gets to pulling. thats not good when trying to cross rocks or tricky sections sometimes it helps going up hill. just make sure it walks good on a leash. try to train her to walk behind you.

desdemona
04-06-2008, 02:34
i have a pitbull and a lab we hike with. our pitbull will go all day long. the only problem is she gets to pulling. thats not good when trying to cross rocks or tricky sections sometimes it helps going up hill. just make sure it walks good on a leash. try to train her to walk behind you.

I know what Cesar Milan says and all (not that I necessarily buy it all) but Torie walks in front of me. I find it MUCH easier. Walking on the side is not an option since many of the trails are too narrow. She rarely pulls though.
She also helps me in getting down. I think that she has a job to do, so she is serious about it, being a workign breed and all.

If we scramble, I take her handle (of the pack) and put her up-- and usually my partner holds her.

--des

Two Speed
04-06-2008, 09:14
I've taught Barney to hike behind me. He knows it's OK to get out front if I say "OK, go play." A lot of times he just stays behind me anyway.

BTW, the reason I want Barney behind me is that I find dogs out front of their masters are much more likely to display aggressive behaviour. With Barney behind me I can offer a friendly greeting to another hiker. After that Barney seems to think the other hiker is a long lost member of the pack and he ought to be friendly, too.

SGT Rock
04-06-2008, 09:57
I've taught Barney to hike behind me. He knows it's OK to get out front if I say "OK, go play." A lot of times he just stays behind me anyway.

BTW, the reason I want Barney behind me is that I find dogs out front of their masters are much more likely to display aggressive behaviour. With Barney behind me I can offer a friendly greeting to another hiker. After that Barney seems to think the other hiker is a long lost member of the pack and he ought to be friendly, too.
Hey now that is a good piece of advice - something I had not ever thought of.

Phreak
04-06-2008, 09:59
I know what Cesar Milan says and all (not that I necessarily buy it all) but Torie walks in front of me. I find it MUCH easier. Walking on the side is not an option since many of the trails are too narrow.

--des
Then your dog should be trained to walk behind you. Your dog should never be allowed in front unless specifically trained to 'lead'. Your dog being allowed to walk in front of you can and will lead to control issues down the road.

Nomad94
04-06-2008, 12:08
I let mine out in front for stretches of time- about 60 foot max on a straightaway, not around corners.

She is trained to come 'back', which means she stops whatever she's doing (except voiding) and falls in behind me. About 1 in 10 or 15 times she gets a treat, a little positive reinforcement- she certainly doesn't expect it.

She gets a 'back' for approaching people or dogs ~ she's getting to the point she does it on her own. I make it a point to call her back when she is really into something or curious. She hates it, (& you can't overdo this), but it has made the command very effective.

Lots of practice.

Two Speed
04-06-2008, 15:13
Hey now that is a good piece of advice - something I had not ever thought of.
Thank you, and happy to help.

Then your dog should be trained to walk behind you. Your dog should never be allowed in front unless specifically trained to 'lead'. Your dog being allowed to walk in front of you can and will lead to control issues down the road.
It would appear I'm not the only one who sees that aspect in canine behaviour. My problem is I'm not good enough at training to get Barney to behave the way I want when he's leading, so I stay out front the vast majority of the time.
I let mine out in front for stretches of time- . . . Lots of practice.I think 60' is a little far. My take is I'm not fast enough to intervene if Barney manages to stir up trouble.

I have also taught Barney a "stay close" command. We really haven't defined what "close" is, he knows he's too far away if I repeat the command. Of course if he's found something interesting I do occasionally have to threaten him with "jail" to get him to come in a little closer.

desdemona
04-06-2008, 23:57
Then your dog should be trained to walk behind you. Your dog should never be allowed in front unless specifically trained to 'lead'. Your dog being allowed to walk in front of you can and will lead to control issues down the road.

I don't feel this is a problem for us. It works better for me for Torie to be in the front (perhaps being a small dog). I have never had control problems, and think I would have in 7 years that I have had her. She has great trail "manners". When we come to others on the trail we move off to the side if possible. She is never aggressive.

She is actually helpful for me getting down hills, stabilizing me esp on steep hills.

Do what you think you should with your own dog, I was just saying what works for us. I wouldn't dream of telling you what to do with your dog, unless this were a question, which it clearly was not.

The Cesar Milan concepts are overdone, and not really "modern" dog training anyway.




--des

Kiyu
04-07-2008, 01:45
The Cesar Milan concepts are overdone, and not really "modern" dog training anyway.

--des

Maybe he just doesn't know he is not up to date on his concepts. From what I've seen the guy seems like a really open minded fellow....you should contact him; I’m sure he’d appreciate any advice you could give him.


Kiyu

leeki pole
04-07-2008, 09:38
Maybe he just doesn't know he is not up to date on his concepts. From what I've seen the guy seems like a really open minded fellow....you should contact him; I’m sure he’d appreciate any advice you could give him.


Kiyu
His concepts and advice worked for me. I've got two calm submissive Labs that were a handful at one year of age. Now they're just big babies. His program works if YOU work at it. That's the key.

Rouen
04-07-2008, 10:42
The Cesar Milan concepts are overdone, and not really "modern" dog training anyway..
What Cesar does isn't training.



His program works if YOU work at it. That's the key.

You also have to adapt the methods to the dog, even Cesar will tell you that.

leeki pole
04-07-2008, 11:32
What Cesar does isn't training.




You also have to adapt the methods to the dog, even Cesar will tell you that.
Agree with both observations. It was I that needed the training, and up to me to pass that on to my Labs. Quite pithy comments, and thanks.:)

smokymtnsteve
04-07-2008, 19:40
One may have the best trained dog in the world, however, it is a fact that cannot be disputed that bringing a dog with you on a hike negatively impacts everyone elses wilderness experience that you come across.


other people impact my wilderness experience...

btw the AT is NOT very much wilderness.

SGT Rock
04-07-2008, 19:46
But it is the closest thing we have got around here.

smokymtnsteve
04-07-2008, 19:59
But it is the closest thing we have got around here.

come visit...we got wild wilderness, wolves, grizzes, bald eagles, moose and such right outside the cabin door,

SGT Rock
04-07-2008, 20:00
I bet you do. But the drive would take me a little longer than it does to get to the local "wilderness".

Maybe I can get into the DEA and tell 'em I need a recon trip to find all them pot growers up north. ;)

smokymtnsteve
04-07-2008, 20:02
couldn't you fly into fort wainwright?

SGT Rock
04-07-2008, 20:48
I could possibly, but it would take some work to get there most likely. Most things flying these days have a more eastern destination if you know what I mean.

desdemona
04-07-2008, 23:47
Maybe he just doesn't know he is not up to date on his concepts. From what I've seen the guy seems like a really open minded fellow....you should contact him; I’m sure he’d appreciate any advice you could give him.
Kiyu

I think it works for him (though you only see the successes-- there are also law suits against him). I think the reason it works for him to a great extent is due to his own abilities and obvious relationships with people and dogs. I know of others who are in very strong disagreement.

I have actually recommended him to people who I feel coddle their pets and treat them like little people. And I think if there weren't the no. of people that show dogs being treated like human princesses, he wouldn't be nearly so popular.

For another view of dog training (of as he might call it "dog psychology") read "The Other End of the Leash". She deals with many of the same types of behavior problems, etc. Another view is expressed on www.clickertraining.com. There is a whole section dealing with animal problems of various sorts.

I'm sure in making hand over fist that he is not going to be paying attention to a mere viewer. :rolleyes:
--des

NorthCountryWoods
04-08-2008, 09:54
Maybe I can get into the DEA and tell 'em I need a recon trip to find all them pot growers up north. ;)

(Hijack Alert)

Worked with a guy that surveyed bush property for the state and this a bigger problem than you'd think given the climate. His territory was the north of the AK highway to the north slope (a USDA hardiness zone 2, maybe) and he'd have to fly over the property he was surveying to check for growth before landing, and then always armed. It got to be very tense.

He used to say he had the greatest job, til people realized the remoteness and power of the sun had on pot growth. Alaska Thunder***k they called it. :(

smokymtnsteve
04-08-2008, 15:40
the city of nenana fired it's police force a couple years ago...guess what the main occupation is in town.

Heater
04-08-2008, 15:48
the city of nenana fired it's police force a couple years ago...guess what the main occupation is in town.

Tourism? Plane rides over Denali. That'd be my guess.

desdemona
04-08-2008, 16:28
Why don't we ignore people who say things like "dogs are bad", "dogs should never be on trails", etc?? IMO, they have a position and our thoughts will never change them anyway. Engaging with them only encourages them. (Spoken like a true behaviorist ;) -- if I had a clicker I wouldn't be clicking them right now.)

--des

The Weasel
04-08-2008, 21:05
For Rock...if you want to survey pot farms from the air, just fly over the Smokeys, pardner. Largest cash crop in North Carolina is....yeah. For real.

For Des...the best way to 'engage' people who say things like that is to keep doing what a lot of people on this thread are doing, i.e. showing intelligent ways to function with one's dog (I don't call it training, since it's a two-way street with most dogs, I think, so I'm not sure who's being trained!) that minimize or reduce the problems that cause people to be against dogs on the trail. So ignore the real hostiles, but mention more ideas that have worked for you, and don't be totally suspicious of some of us who are willing to open our minds a bit.

TW

Kiyu
04-09-2008, 04:46
I think it works for him (though you only see the successes-- there are also law suits against him).

--des


To the casual reader this would imply that because you say “you only see the successes” that there are failures and as you follow this with “—there are also law suits against him” seems to imply that there are lawsuits (plural) against him because of those failures.
Is that what you were trying to say or would you care to restate it?

Kiyu

leeki pole
04-09-2008, 09:27
To the casual reader this would imply that because you say “you only see the successes” that there are failures and as you follow this with “—there are also law suits against him” seems to imply that there are lawsuits (plural) against him because of those failures.
Is that what you were trying to say or would you care to restate it?

Kiyu
I can't figure this out either.:confused:

SGT Rock
04-09-2008, 09:57
As I recall the only law suit ain't from his training techniques, it was a guy who's dog got hurt on a treadmill that Caesar allowed them to use at his place. Ceasar wasn't even there, but the guy's own personal trainer for his dog was doing the exercising/training. Hardly a case of Caesar hurting someones dog.

desdemona
04-09-2008, 15:17
Cesar Millan:
My, I stirred a hornet's nest. I think there may be two (or more) lawsuits.
Perhaps they should stress on the show how dangerous using a tread mill could be, esp with a dog in a choke chain.

I am also saying you see only successful outcomes on the shows. If there are unsuccessful ones, you won't see them. This is TV. Also some episodes are interpeted by others as not successful but as shutting down or fear reactions. I recall one of a dog who was afraid of walking on a shiny flooring.

There are others who have articulated their objections better than I have. THough a commercial site this is a very nice rebuttal (with some good thigns to say) re: his techniques. http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

There are alternatives. That's basically what I am saying. That I don't agree with some of them. IF you want to use them, ok. But don't say that I need to, or that I need to "fall in" with some ideas such as dominance and so on.

BTW, the one thing I really do like is that I think some people do treat their dogs like pampered children and never so no. OF course, I think people are treating their kids this way too.

--des

SunnyWalker
04-16-2008, 23:09
I have decided to carry a hiking staff instead of trek type poles. It is a little more stout and I can gently or aggresively push/hit/pound/bash/bump a dog away from me.