View Full Version : Four Wheelers on Trail
I hiked out the section from sams gap to devils fork this weekend and saw where a lot of four wheelers have been rideing out near the grave site area on the trail. I dont know if this is something that they are allowed to do or not. Does anyone know if this is legal for them or just someone tearing the trail up.
Lone Wolf
03-24-2008, 07:28
no they ain't supposed to ride there but it's something the locals have been doing in that area for decades. no biggie
canoehead
03-24-2008, 07:47
it's a national footpath
Lone Wolf
03-24-2008, 07:50
yeah, so? locals don't care about no "guvmint" trail
Do locals care about smoking in a non-smoking motel room? No biggie...
yeah, the AT is supposed to be off limits to any and all moterized vehicles. Unfortunately some folks just plain DON"T CARE. It is very sad.
DavidNH
Tipi Walter
03-24-2008, 09:30
It's the tired old fascination with throttles and the unwillingness to get outdoors unless rolling, the redneck version of the mindless Wheeled Tourists that breeze thru the Smokies as moving couch potatoes.
ATVers are simply couch potatoes straddling a noisey stinking couch, too weak to walk and convinced their addiction to oil is good. To them paradise is a loud engine and blue smoke, they're missionaries for the Religion of Sprawl, here to convert What's Left into Good Riddance.
Lone Wolf
03-24-2008, 09:51
gonna go ride my harley with loud pipes now
RITBlake
03-24-2008, 10:34
ATVers are simply couch potatoes straddling a noisey stinking couch, too weak to walk and convinced their addiction to oil is good. To them paradise is a loud engine and blue smoke, they're missionaries for the Religion of Sprawl, here to convert What's Left into Good Riddance.
It's actually a lot of fun. If you tried it, you might like it.
I was offroading all weekend in the pine barrens of new jersey in my jeep.
I'm with Tipi on this one. I am sure it is fun. So is watching a squirrel eat a spruce cone.
Whistling in the dark. When the farms are all deserts and the cities are starving, there will still be some ATV rolling around on the fumes of big oil, and the driver will be saying, "Try it, it's fun."
RITBlake
03-24-2008, 11:22
Whistling in the dark. When the farms are all deserts and the cities are starving, there will still be some ATV rolling around on the fumes of big oil, and the driver will be saying, "Try it, it's fun."
Yes, you are right. ATV riders are definitely responsible for the world's problems. BTW your average four-stroke ATV is far more gas efficient then your average 4 or 6 cylinder car.
In the grand scheme of things hurting the planet, ATV riding is a tiny tiny drop in the bucket.
But I'm sure you are a saint GGS2. I'm sure you walk everywhere. You walk to the store, to work, etc. You never drive anywhere and you've certainly never flown everywhere. You are perfect! I'm sure you're wicked fun to hang w/ too!
Tipi Walter
03-24-2008, 11:52
Yes, you are right. ATV riders are definitely responsible for the world's problems. BTW your average four-stroke ATV is far more gas efficient then your average 4 or 6 cylinder car.
In the grand scheme of things hurting the planet, ATV riding is a tiny tiny drop in the bucket.
But I'm sure you are a saint GGS2. I'm sure you walk everywhere. You walk to the store, to work, etc. You never drive anywhere and you've certainly never flown everywhere. You are perfect! I'm sure you're wicked fun to hang w/ too!
The point is not about car traffic on established roads, but about ATVs on footpaths and in the woods. Big difference. Sure, we know the automobile worshippers have invaded this fine land, but you'd think that the last areas closed to cars would not be open to another version of the car, the ATV.
With millions of miles of paved highways, you'd think this would be enough to satisfy the speed-addicted, throttle-twisting, fun-seeking, exhaust-loving wheeled Rollers, but no, it's never enough. They won't be satisfied until every last acre is open to the moving engine, all seen from sore butts atop padded cushions. Wouldn't someone wanting to protect what's left of our land be an American patriot?
bigmac_in
03-24-2008, 11:58
gonna go ride my harley with loud pipes now
Don't start THAT one again - :D
It's the tired old fascination with throttles and the unwillingness to get outdoors unless rolling, the redneck version of the mindless Wheeled Tourists that breeze thru the Smokies as moving couch potatoes.
ATVers are simply couch potatoes straddling a noisey stinking couch, too weak to walk and convinced their addiction to oil is good. To them paradise is a loud engine and blue smoke, they're missionaries for the Religion of Sprawl, here to convert What's Left into Good Riddance.
That's like saying hikers are all health food nuts addicted to peeing in the woods and living in a tent while not taking showers. I have ridden ATV's and raced motocross for most of my life. I also hike and enjoy the outdoors as do many of my riding compadres. To call me or my friends couch potatos would be way off base and quite frankly insulting.
Lone Wolf
03-24-2008, 12:27
i LOVE riding snowmobiles
i LOVE riding snowmobiles
Same here...
Bulldawg
03-24-2008, 12:32
The whole thing comes down to there is a place in the forest for ATVs and there is a place in the forest for hiking. Don't mix the two and you won't piss me off in the least. The USFS has riding areas set aside for ATVs all over the country I assume, I know they do in the south. But I don't want some ATV to come screaming by me when I'm on the AT or any other non-motorized trail. But now if I choose to hike a multi use trail, then that was my choice to do so and I would expect, multiple types of transportation to pass my slow a$$. Anyway, my two cents worth. ATVs are a lot of fun and a great asset on the farm. Try to round up your cattle to take to sale on foot and you'll see what I'm talking about. Give me a Honda to round up my cows anyday over a horse. It's a heck of a lot cheaper!!!
i LOVE riding snowmobiles
But the new ones are almost quiet!! Where's the thrill in that?
Bulldawg
03-24-2008, 12:34
But the new ones are almost quiet!! Where's the thrill in that?
I can get ya a loud pipe for your new one. Contact me if you want some loud pipes, I can get 'em!!:D:D
RITBlake
03-24-2008, 12:36
The point is not about car traffic on established roads, but about ATVs on footpaths and in the woods. Big difference. Sure, we know the automobile worshippers have invaded this fine land, but you'd think that the last areas closed to cars would not be open to another version of the car, the ATV.
Granted, but we're talking about a very very small piece of the AT. It's not like this a rampant problem. 99% of the trail is untouched by ATV's/4x4s
I don't think it's anything to get worked up over, there is not about to be a flood gate opened of ATV riding on the trail
RITBlake
03-24-2008, 12:40
That's like saying hikers are all health food nuts addicted to peeing in the woods and living in a tent while not taking showers. I have ridden ATV's and raced motocross for most of my life. I also hike and enjoy the outdoors as do many of my riding compadres. To call me or my friends couch potatos would be way off base and quite frankly insulting.
Agree w/ Walter here. Most folks in the ATV / Off Road crowd are also very much in to the outdoors whether it's camping, fishing, or hiking.
The vast majority of ATV owners are responsible and follow marked trails in marked areas. Sounds like there are a few bad apples who made it on to the AT.
Granted, but we're talking about a very very small piece of the AT. It's not like this a rampant problem. 99% of the trail is untouched by ATV's/4x4s
I don't think it's anything to get worked up over, there is not about to be a flood gate opened of ATV riding on the trail
It's not so much the fact that someone encountered an ATV on the AT (ATV-AT?? Coincidence?) but the attitude, the addiction to internal combustion and to POWER! It's actually an addiction to adrenaline and all sorts of endorphine rushes. It's neurotic, is what it is. And is our undoing.
Someone had a thread about whether hiking the AT (any trail) is selfish. Actually no: one of the great benefits offered by a walk in the woods is the cure for neurosis. Offered, but not always taken. And yes, I am aware that neurosis is a dated term which no longer appears in the DSM-IV as such. I have adopted it as my own personal jargon.
RITBlake
03-24-2008, 12:57
It's actually an addiction to adrenaline and all sorts of endorphine rushes. It's neurotic, is what it is. And is our undoing.
As opposed to an addiction to say methamphetamine? There are much much much worse things in life then enjoying the 'rush' of an ATV ride.
You all have got to be *hitting me!!! Get your a$$ out from behind the computer and hit the trail. Maybe if you spent more time out there you would not look so hard for something to *itch about!!!
Lone Wolf
03-24-2008, 13:21
i'm gonna go mtn. biking on the AT right now
no they ain't supposed to ride there but it's something the locals have been doing in that area for decades. no biggie
When "TeePee" & I hiked over the "Humps" (2004) & camped @ DOLL FLATS...we were visited by several 4-wheelers...that entertained themselves for about an hour (9pm-ish)as we were getting some (or trying) needed sleep.:D
sheepdog
03-24-2008, 13:52
I love my Yamaha Grizzley. It pulls my fish shanty out on the ice and on motorized trails it is a lot of fun. My grand daughters love to be pulled on a sled behind it.
I've seen a lot of "hikers" mess up the trail, springs or shelters. So far no ATV's on the trail.
A place for everything and everything in its place.
Lone Wolf
03-24-2008, 13:58
I've seen a lot of "hikers" mess up the trail, springs or shelters. So far no ATV's on the trail.
no *hit! just go to georgia in the spring
joehiker22
03-24-2008, 15:44
on the topic of snowmobiles, there are some places in vt where snowmobiles are permitted to ride on the at. (usually where vast (vermont snowmobile trails) trails overlap with the at for a few hundred yards or so.)
You all have got to be *hitting me!!! Get your a$$ out from behind the computer and hit the trail. Maybe if you spent more time out there you would not look so hard for something to *itch about!!!
Amen!!!
It's not so much the fact that someone encountered an ATV on the AT (ATV-AT?? Coincidence?) but the attitude, the addiction to internal combustion and to POWER! It's actually an addiction to adrenaline and all sorts of endorphine rushes. It's neurotic, is what it is. And is our undoing.
Someone had a thread about whether hiking the AT (any trail) is selfish. Actually no: one of the great benefits offered by a walk in the woods is the cure for neurosis. Offered, but not always taken. And yes, I am aware that neurosis is a dated term which no longer appears in the DSM-IV as such. I have adopted it as my own personal jargon.
Too many "Left Handed Cigs"...twist up another and keep writing that crap ! Go for a walk.
Mike
Too many "Left Handed Cigs"...twist up another and keep writing that crap ! Go for a walk.
Mike
Hey Bull, I don't do that s*** any more. That got tired back in the seventies. I'm high on life! And the only reason I'm pack sniffing on this crazy forum is because I'm hobbled with Achilles tendonitis. Soon as I can get a bike and a passable path, I'm out of here.
I find this place very educational. Thank you all for putting up with me. Don't worry, I'm not a permanent resident.
The anti-carbon burning crowd is missing the whole point. Have fun burning 'em while you can, because the next generation of powered vehicles is not gonna have the kind of torque you can get today from the internal combustion engine. And cleaner energy sources will not be coming to a theater near you until we burn up a lot more oil. Fact.
Oh, and getting back to the subject, ATV traffic on the trail is limited, so no need to get your knickers in a knot.
Well, Tin Man, I hope you're right. Because my crystal ball isn't as bright as yours.
Bulldawg
03-24-2008, 19:40
Hey Tin Man, I hear ya brother. I love my hiking and I love my outdoors. But there just aren't many feelings like the one you get when a little ATV between your legs propels you form 0 to 80 in about 7 or 8 seconds!!!
But like I said earlier, I don't agree with ATVs on non motorized trails. So long as ya stay on your ATV trails, ride to your heart's content.
But like I said earlier, I don't agree with ATVs on non motorized trails. So long as ya stay on your ATV trails, ride to your heart's content.
I agree, but I think the problem is limited. In fact, there are more bothersome road crossings than ATV invasions. It's not an issue on the AT.
Well, Tin Man, I hope you're right. Because my crystal ball isn't as bright as yours.
No crystal ball, just how economics works.
When "TeePee" & I hiked over the "Humps" (2004) & camped @ DOLL FLATS...we were visited by several 4-wheelers...that entertained themselves for about an hour (9pm-ish)as we were getting some (or trying) needed sleep.:D
I would suspect they came up the old road that comes into Doll Flats. Can't see a 4wheeler ( or anything else outside of a hiker or a goat) getting there via AT.
I think this is what the original poster saw evidence of- local folks who know of a way to intersect a tame part of the trail via some old logging road or skid which ties into someone's property.
no *hit! just go to georgia in the spring
damn leki poles
No crystal ball, just how economics works.
Oh! Economics! I thought we were talking about reality. My bad. :o
le loupe
03-24-2008, 20:57
what if i come an ***** in the corner of one room of your house.
I could say "c'mon- it's just one tiny pile of doo, you've got the other 1999SF that's yours, besides i walked thru the kitchen and saw a bunch of dirty dishes in the sink, so who are you to tell me about making a mess."
I'm pretty sure it ain't legal in the PineBarrens, either...
Oh! Economics! I thought we were talking about reality. My bad. :o
Economics is a reflection of reality. Supply and demand, scarcity, all that stuff. It's what causes gas prices to rise and behaviors to change.
Economics is a reflection of reality. Supply and demand, scarcity, all that stuff. It's what causes gas prices to rise and behaviors to change.
If you rely on a reflection, check out the mirror.
If you rely on a reflection, check out the mirror.
I know who I am. And I ain't perfect. You?
smokymtnsteve
03-24-2008, 21:40
i LOVE riding snowmobiles
we call'em snowmachines in AK
Lone Wolf
03-24-2008, 21:41
bfd....
I know who I am. And I ain't perfect. You?
Very nice. No, the mirror of reality you referred to. Not the bathroom kind. I was making a play on speech that you used. But since you ask, of course I'm perfect! Why would I be anything but? This is called irony, and it is employed in lieu of a pungent epithet. This forum doesn't seem an appropriate place for exegesis of the nature of reality versus our mental images thereof, so I will stop here. Have a nice night.
Jim Adams
03-24-2008, 21:50
I'm pretty sure it ain't legal in the PineBarrens, either...
the Pine Barrens do have legal riding areas...have for years. At one time in history, there was a motorcycle national enduro held in the PB's every year on the national schedule.:-?
geek
Have a nice night.
You too. :)
Back to this subject again.............(sigh).
It's not the sport that's the problem, it's the few idiot riders that ruin it for everybody (eventually themselves, when bans are enforced).
Hiking is fun, and good exercise, plus you get to enjoy the beauty of nature.
Mountain biking is fun, and good exercise, plus you get to observe rocks, roots, dirt, sand, and mud with the analytical mind of a physicist. (Don't get much time to look up and enjoy nature, though).
I do both of the above, and probably would enjoy the fossil fueled version of the second, but I probably wouldn't be out in the woods to talk to Bambi if I did. I'd be out there "Rippin' it up" for fun, not caring much about what anybody else thinks.
It's just not MY THING.
RITBlake
03-24-2008, 22:48
I'm pretty sure it ain't legal in the PineBarrens, either...
Really? Really?
I wonder why that nice park ranger handed me the nicely illustrated Pine Barrens 4x4 Trail Map when I got my campsite permit.
Then came outside and inspected my jeep to make sure it was street legal.
Then told me that I would be sharing the trails w/ ATVs, dirtbikes, horses, and mountain bikers.
But yah you're probably right. You probably know better then I, I wasn't there on Friday or anything.
Really? Really?
I wonder why that nice park ranger handed me the nicely illustrated Pine Barrens 4x4 Trail Map when I got my campsite permit.
Then came outside and inspected my jeep to make sure it was street legal.
Then told me that I would be sharing the trails w/ ATVs, dirtbikes, horses, and mountain bikers.
But yah you're probably right. You probably know better then I, I wasn't there on Friday or anything.
Don't you just hate when the park rangers jerk you around like that? :)
le loupe
03-24-2008, 23:13
dont be a j@cka55
there is a difference between 4 wheeling on the AT, which is a footpath and driving on shared roads, paved or otherwise, within a state park.
In the park you can't stray from the road way, you can't go around gates, you can't damage plants or ride thru private property. If you are, you are a loser, friday night or any other time. The wanton disrespect of off-roaders is what people gripe about on the AT or in areas of the PB or anywhere else.
I'm sure sharing the road with pedestrians and equestrians in the state park means treating each other with respect and moving at slow speeds. Something ignored in most places, but thats not much fun is it.
RITBlake
03-24-2008, 23:42
dont be a j@cka55
there is a difference between 4 wheeling on the AT, which is a footpath and driving on shared roads, paved or otherwise, within a state park.
In the park you can't stray from the road way, you can't go around gates, you can't damage plants or ride thru private property. If you are, you are a loser, friday night or any other time. The wanton disrespect of off-roaders is what people gripe about on the AT or in areas of the PB or anywhere else.
I'm sure sharing the road with pedestrians and equestrians in the state park means treating each other with respect and moving at slow speeds. Something ignored in most places, but thats not much fun is it.
Right, but I wasn't talking about 4 wheeling on the AT was I?
Have you been inside the pine barrens? The forest roads are pretty well established. You can't blaze your own trail unless you feel like running over a 1000 pine trees or so on your way.
In 100 miles of driving I saw exactly one gated area and had zero interest in bypassing the gate.
Most offroaders are very responsible and extremely protective of places like the pine barrens where they have so much freedom and such a wide variety of trails and will quickly put people in check who are breaking the rules or are acting dangerous or damaging the area. Believe it or not, there is a Leave No Trace ethos in the off roading community as well.
Oh and thanks for calling me a Jacka$$. Check your facts before posting next time.
Jim Adams
03-24-2008, 23:53
i've canoed in the PB's, ridden dirt bikes and shot some great photography there but i have never seen any reason to hike there.
geek
LIhikers
03-25-2008, 00:02
About 5 or 6 years ago my wife and I were day hiking the AT in New Jersey, doing an out and back. We heard ATVs all day long but figured we'd be OK since we were sticking to the AT and the ATVs were a ways off. Well, that all changed real quick when 4 ATV came right down the trail at us from around a turn that didn't offer us, or the riders any sight distance. We were nearly run over by 4 kids who, weren't even close enough to being of an age that would allow them to operate a motor vehicle. I estamated their age at 10 to 12 years old when I reported the incident.
Yes, you are right. ATV riders are definitely responsible for the world's problems. BTW your average four-stroke ATV is far more gas efficient then your average 4 or 6 cylinder car.
In the grand scheme of things hurting the planet, ATV riding is a tiny tiny drop in the bucket.
But I'm sure you are a saint GGS2. I'm sure you walk everywhere. You walk to the store, to work, etc. You never drive anywhere and you've certainly never flown everywhere. You are perfect! I'm sure you're wicked fun to hang w/ too!
A little defensive are we? :D
i LOVE riding snowmobiles
Snowmobiles don't destroy the land they use. ATVs as they are used by 99 percent of the riders are the most destructive instruments ever invented. They turn walking trails into impassable mud holes.
Weary
i've canoed in the PB's, ridden dirt bikes and shot some great photography there but i have never seen any reason to hike there.
geek
What other sicknesses do you have?
RITBlake
03-25-2008, 00:23
Snowmobiles don't destroy the land they use. ATVs as they are used by 99 percent of the riders are the most destructive instruments ever invented. They turn walking trails into impassable mud holes.
Weary
The people of hiroshima and nagasaki and would probably argue with you on the whole 'most destructive instrument ever invented thing'
RITBlake
03-25-2008, 00:25
A little defensive are we? :D
the point: there are much much worse things on this planet then ATVs
:-?
Jim Adams
03-25-2008, 00:53
What other sicknesses do you have?
well, i've got over 27,000 miles of canoeing under my belt. i've been far deeper into the wilderness by canoe than i've ever been from just hiking and i have a degree in photography and photojournalism. i collect and race vintage motorcycles and love riding. i don't care much for ATV's or snowmobiles, don't own one and never will but they definitely have their uses and most of the riders that i know are very responsible riders and i do respect that... but probably the most important item about all of the above is the fact that i have yet to be run off of the side of a river due to an ATV!:D
geek
minnesotasmith
03-25-2008, 01:33
The vast majority of ATV owners are responsible and follow marked trails in marked areas.
I've seen huge amounts of land damage (including on private property from trespassers) by ATVs and snowmobiles both. Like jet skis and snowboards, a certain type of behavior-inclined person is disproportionately attracted to them. I would frankly like to see all 4 far more restricted than they are now, the operators of such devices having caused so much damage and so much trouble for so long.
Tennessee Viking
03-25-2008, 02:08
I found the trail a bit mucky from ATV traffic last time I hiked up Sugarloaf. Its some of the locals, they tore up most of the trail from Rector Laurel Road. And reported it to the Carolina Club. They are using the forest road to shoot up to Sugarloaf Gap and over to Frozen Knob. The ridgeline in most parts was an old forest/timber road, so they view it as ATV right of way.
The Bishop Hollow/Buck Mountain/Elk River area around Roan is another hot spot for ATV traffic.
Best thing to do is to step off trail, if they are near you, and wait for them to pass. Lots of them will not give a care if there hikers on trail, and end up nearly running someone down.
If you run into an ATVer, don't make a fuss. Always possible the party might be drinking and carrying. Leave a report of the problem at a hostel or local hiking club, if possible.
fiddlehead
03-25-2008, 03:44
The people of hiroshima and nagasaki and would probably argue with you on the whole 'most destructive instrument ever invented thing'
Reminds me of a time i was hiking with some friends from out west.
We saw some ATVers and i said "there goes the enemy"
My friends then said "that's not the enemy, it's the Bulldozers"
But I agree RITBlake, the A-bomb has done more damage at one time than anything else except perhaps organized religion, but let's not go there, aye?
gonna go ride my harley with loud pipes now
Translation:
I am going to put on my penis extension and parade about town. :D
minnesotasmith
03-25-2008, 04:43
Translation:
I am going to put on my penis extension and parade about town. :D
A highly feminist (aging, divorced, no kids, natch) former coworker of mine related this to me. An even more feminist friend of hers attended a small college in a smaller town. She attended school one summer to find that every year there was a week-long monster truck convention in town during the summer term. For whatever reason, she found this highly offensive. The next summer, she was ready...
She had made up about 40 bumper stickers of the type that take high explosives to remove. About 4:00 A.M., she went around and placed these bumper stickers in prominent places on the largest of the monster trucks gracing her town (and parking spaces, etc.). The bumper stickers read, "I have to have a large truck, because my p*nis is really small.".
The truck owners were livid enough to have crucified her upside down until dead, had they caught her, but they never figured out who ruined the mood of their convention.
Thanks buliwf finally the anwser i was looking for. I know this area of the trail is not liked by the locals so you answered me good. I know this area has been natorious for car brake ins and such. Thanks
sheepdog
03-25-2008, 06:37
She had made up about 40 bumper stickers of the type that take high explosives to remove. About 4:00 A.M., she went around and placed these bumper stickers in prominent places on the largest of the monster trucks gracing her town (and parking spaces, etc.). The bumper stickers read, "I have to have a large truck, because my p*nis is really small.".
I get it....I don't like what you do, so I will be a coward and destroy your property. What a gem.... You just gott love the.......irony???
NICKTHEGREEK
03-25-2008, 06:54
Shhhh! Don't look now but as you read this someone, some where is dancing, smoking, drinking, cavorting with loose women, taking the Lord's name in vain, playing games of chance, overeating and driving a gas guzzler. All within sight of the AT. Get over it.
minnesotasmith
03-25-2008, 07:26
I get it....I don't like what you do, so I will be a coward and destroy your property. What a gem.... You just gott love the.......irony???
Did I indicate I approved of her vandalism? It was ironic, yes, but I don't think she should have done what she did, especially as the victims were apparently law-abiding.
Now, if someone were to make fun of or inconvenience users of ATVs, snowmobiles, jet skis, etc., that trespass and destroy property/bother people (from my experience, most of them), I'd have no objection to that.
Lone Wolf
03-25-2008, 07:32
A highly feminist (aging, divorced, no kids, natch) former coworker of mine related this to me. An even more feminist friend of hers attended a small college in a smaller town. She attended school one summer to find that every year there was a week-long monster truck convention in town during the summer term. For whatever reason, she found this highly offensive. The next summer, she was ready...
She had made up about 40 bumper stickers of the type that take high explosives to remove. About 4:00 A.M., she went around and placed these bumper stickers in prominent places on the largest of the monster trucks gracing her town (and parking spaces, etc.). The bumper stickers read, "I have to have a large truck, because my p*nis is really small.".
The truck owners were livid enough to have crucified her upside down until dead, had they caught her, but they never figured out who ruined the mood of their convention.
sounds like your friend has penis envy
kayak karl
03-25-2008, 07:44
Really? Really?
I wonder why that nice park ranger handed me the nicely illustrated Pine Barrens 4x4 Trail Map when I got my campsite permit.
Then came outside and inspected my jeep to make sure it was street legal.
Then told me that I would be sharing the trails w/ ATVs, dirtbikes, horses, and mountain bikers.
But yah you're probably right. You probably know better then I, I wasn't there on Friday or anything.
your right. they have areas set aside now with maps:) it was done to seperate gas powered, mountian bikes, hikers and horses. batona trail has some parts where horses are allowed. i think it's all good idea.
i used to watch the bike races in the 70's lessoning to Bruce's new album "Greetings from Asbury Park":) i think they started out of Chatsworth
Tipi Walter
03-25-2008, 07:57
About 5 or 6 years ago my wife and I were day hiking the AT in New Jersey, doing an out and back. We heard ATVs all day long . . .
This was one of my points all along, the noise factor. Noise pollution is a constant companion to the city dweller and to anyone living near an Interstate or major highway, even in the woods I get bombarded with near constant jet noise from above. You'd think by getting off into some roadless track in the woods we'd be free from most noise pollution, but no, here comes the ATVs. Snowmobiles are worse in this regard, since a snow-covered landscape usually offers near pristine conditions for blessed silence. But no, here comes the foul loud machines driven by those with "throttle envy", who have an endless fascination with speed, stink and noise.
I've seen huge amounts of land damage (including on private property from trespassers) by ATVs and snowmobiles both. Like jet skis and snowboards, a certain type of behavior-inclined person is disproportionately attracted to them. I would frankly like to see all 4 far more restricted than they are now, the operators of such devices having caused so much damage and so much trouble for so long.
Can't help but agree but the oil addiction is too strong for most people to fight. They demand total access to all roads with their cars and want even more roads built(I-3 comes to mind), and then complain if their ATV access is limited. They want it all and for the oil addict they've pretty much gotten their way. Even where I live in the designated wilderness of Citico there are periodic ATV forays along the foot trails in stealth fashion, until the Rangers come in to guard the routes.
sheepdog
03-25-2008, 08:16
We can all point out times when an inconsiderate (you name the sport including backpackers) screwed things up.
My ATV is great for;
getting me to a secluded trout stream,
a great berry or mushroom picking spot,
a high ridge overlooking the Indian River where sturgeon 6 feet long and a hundred years old go to spawn,
The pigeon river country where I can listen to the elk bugle at night,
pulling my ice shanty out on a frozen lake,
etc etc etc........
I'm an outdoors guy, I love the woods, trails, lakes and streams and would do nothing to harm them. I obey the trail laws. My ATV is just a tool, like my kayak and my backpack that makes getting out there fun. Most of the people I know with ATV's share these values.
A highly feminist (aging, divorced, no kids, natch) former coworker of mine related this to me. An even more feminist friend of hers attended a small college in a smaller town. She attended school one summer to find that every year there was a week-long monster truck convention in town during the summer term. For whatever reason, she found this highly offensive. The next summer, she was ready...
She had made up about 40 bumper stickers of the type that take high explosives to remove. About 4:00 A.M., she went around and placed these bumper stickers in prominent places on the largest of the monster trucks gracing her town (and parking spaces, etc.). The bumper stickers read, "I have to have a large truck, because my p*nis is really small.".
The truck owners were livid enough to have crucified her upside down until dead, had they caught her, but they never figured out who ruined the mood of their convention.
So she went around illegally touching other people's property...what a loser.
RITBlake
03-25-2008, 09:28
She had made up about 40 bumper stickers of the type that take high explosives to remove. About 4:00 A.M., she went around and placed these bumper stickers in prominent places on the largest of the monster trucks gracing her town (and parking spaces, etc.). The bumper stickers read, "I have to have a large truck, because my p*nis is really small.".
Sounds like a really boring version of The Monkey Wrench Gang
RITBlake
03-25-2008, 09:30
a certain type of behavior-inclined person is disproportionately attracted to them.
Fun loving cool people?
Bulldawg
03-25-2008, 09:44
Ya know, I take offense to the suggestion that 99% of ATV owners are trashing up the planet and wilderness. I happen to own two ATVs. I happen to know MANY MANY friends who own ATVs. We use them to check cows, we use them to fertilize our lawns, we use them to ride up to a neighbors house when it is just too cold we are too lazy to walk (ya know they are very fuel efficient), and we use them to have fun a few weekends a year on designated trails. Of the 50 or so folks I know who own ATVs I can honestly say that none of them would ever trespass or ride on hiking trails. Now, as pointed out in this thread, there are those who do. Then again, there are those of us who enjoy a beer or two with our steak, but that doesn't mean we are an alcoholic. That does not mean we are drunk drivers.
So what I am saying here is rolling the entire ATV community into the same boat with a few "rogue ATVs is no different than seeing trash someone has left along the trail and blaming the ENTIRE hiking community for leaving it there. There are a few bad eggs in every group or demographic, get used to it.
Jaybird62
03-25-2008, 10:15
Like a lot of others have said, everything has a time and a place. People will always cross lines when you put them up, but it certainly is not the majority of the people. I also find it ironic that some think it is ok for rules to be imposed that don't infringe on what they like, but don't tell that same person that they can't camp here!!!Or maybe their is some groups that are just too large and make too much noise. C'mon man, give me a brake. Is it really that bad, or could it be that some people just love to b@#* and wine?
Bulldawg
03-25-2008, 10:18
Like a lot of others have said, everything has a time and a place. People will always cross lines when you put them up, but it certainly is not the majority of the people. I also find it ironic that some think it is ok for rules to be imposed that don't infringe on what they like, but don't tell that same person that they can't camp here!!!Or maybe their is some groups that are just too large and make too much noise. C'mon man, give me a brake. Is it really that bad, or could it be that some people just love to b@#* and wine?
I'll go with the latter of the two. But ya know I like wine, a good Riesling, mmmmm. But now whining, I hate that stuff man!!
le loupe
03-25-2008, 10:20
In my area, (southern NJ and the pine barren area) ATV riders predominantly tresspass on private land, illegally ride on state properties, traverse roadways intended only for the use of automobiles and display a regular pattern of disrespect for local residents and land owners. This isn't only a local attitude as fun loving, cool people from other states routinely travel to the area to take advantage of the open spaces and limited patrols of state police and game wardens.
Its nice that in other areas there is a controlled and reasonable use of these machines, like the aforementioned beer, but I haven't seen it. My reaction is the result of conditioning I've been exposed to.
sheepdog
03-25-2008, 10:25
In my area, (southern NJ and the pine barren area) ATV riders predominantly tresspass on private land, illegally ride on state properties, traverse roadways intended only for the use of automobiles and display a regular pattern of disrespect for local residents and land owners. This isn't only a local attitude as fun loving, cool people from other states routinely travel to the area to take advantage of the open spaces and limited patrols of state police and game wardens.
Its nice that in other areas there is a controlled and reasonable use of these machines, like the aforementioned beer, but I haven't seen it. My reaction is the result of conditioning I've been exposed to.
The proper response to that, would be to enforce exhisting laws. We have had several "sting" type operations, to cut abuse in certain areas. They work real well and with fines and penalties usually pay for themselves.
If someone has no fear of getting caught, they tend to roll the dice.
Jaybird62
03-25-2008, 10:26
So what do you say we should do-make it illegal to ride anywhere because there are boneheaded people who just do what they want to do regardless of rules or laws? Maybe if in a given month on any given road, if the cops stop 10 people who are speeding or not wearing a seat belt, they should close that road to traffic. It seems to me if so much of this trespassing etc. was happening(not saying it is not or anything), they could catch these people. I know around where I live if you are caught trespassing or riding on the roads, they take your vehicle from you.
Bulldawg
03-25-2008, 10:32
Here is a good example. Where I live there are two four lane roads leading to larger towns south. They go through different Counties. On one road, you have to run 85+ to keep from getting run over. On the other road you hardly see anyone running much over 70 (speed limit is 65). Do you know what the difference is? It's not that the bad people are on the fast road and the good people are on the speed limit road. No, it's that on the slower road the laws are enforced. The authorities are out, visible, and writing tickets. I've not got one, but word gets around, you know!
So, not excusing what these folks are doing in your area. But I think you should be talking to local authorities about stopping it. It won't take but a hand full of tickets and your problem will dissipate tremendously. A little bit of common sense goes a long way.
.....So what I am saying here is rolling the entire ATV community into the same boat with a few "rogue ATVs is no different than seeing trash someone has left along the trail and blaming the ENTIRE hiking community for leaving it there. There are a few bad eggs in every group or demographic, get used to it.
Well, in addition to working for the Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust, I'm active in a small town land trust where I live. Over the past two decades we've managed to protect 800 acres. 500 we own out right; 300 are easements, most of which encourage public walking access.
We have about 25 miles of walking trails on these and other protected lands. From the beginning, but mostly in the past decade, these trails have sustained damage from ATVs.
We have tried repeatedly to gain the cooperation of the local ATV club. They talk a good game, but do zero work. A decade ago we negotiated to allow them access to an old road they needed to reach adjacent properties, on condition that they repair past damage. So far they have done zero work.
Last fall we spent $12,000 building bog bridges over a mile of mud holes the machines had created.
After finally recognizing they are as lazy as they are noisy and destructive, on another preserve we applied for and got a $11,000 dollar grant to repair ATV damage and to build a joint ATV-hiking trail to an undeveloped pond.
The grant was cancelled when at the last minute the ATV Club voted unanimously to withdraw its support. It seems they had heard a rumor that we intended to kick them off once the project was completed.
Aside from the fact that we would have been legally required to allow them access to the rebuilt trail, I continue to wonder what they thought we planned to do with an eight-foot wide foot path.
Anyway, it's my conclusion that the ATV riders in my town -- at least those "responsible" enough to join the "Wheelers" -- are dumb as well as lazy and destructive.
Weary
sheepdog
03-25-2008, 10:56
After finally recognizing they are as lazy as they are noisy and destructive, on another preserve we applied for and got a $11,000 dollar grant to repair ATV damage and to build a joint ATV-hiking trail to an undeveloped pond.
The grant was cancelled when at the last minute the ATV Club voted unanimously to withdraw its support. It seems they had heard a rumor that we intended to kick them off once the project was completed.
Aside from the fact that we would have been legally required to allow them access to the rebuilt trail, I continue to wonder what they thought we planned to do with an eight-foot wide foot path.
Anyway, it's my conclusion that the ATV riders in my town -- at least those "responsible" enough to join the "Wheelers" -- are dumb as well as lazy and destructive.
Weary
It sounds like there is not much trust and respect between the two clubs. That needs to be fixed before you can be expected to work together. Hopefully someone can figgure it out.
In my area, (southern NJ and the pine barren area) ATV riders predominantly tresspass on private land, illegally ride on state properties, traverse roadways intended only for the use of automobiles and display a regular pattern of disrespect for local residents and land owners. This isn't only a local attitude as fun loving, cool people from other states routinely travel to the area to take advantage of the open spaces and limited patrols of state police and game wardens.
I grew up not too far from you and it's the same here. With all the sandy trails through the pines, it's easy to get away from cops on an ATV. But, I can't believe they can't do something, especially with all the people coming down from PA with trailers loaded with ATVs. You see the trucks and empty trailers parked... can't be too hard to find these people.
It sounds like there is not much trust and respect between the two clubs. That needs to be fixed before you can be expected to work together. Hopefully someone can figgure it out.
I suspect it's less a matter of trust, than that the ATV Club resents that it has to ask to use land that we have purchased or had donated to us.
We've gone out of our way to cooperate with them. By cooperating as much as we have, we lost a director whose land had been ravaged by four wheelers who continually broke the gates he had installed and chewed up the trail he had built to a pretty waterfall, and a grove of rare(for Maine) mountain laurel. The director had given us a 71 acre public access, no development easement currently worth about a half million dollars, maybe more. He was a dedicated trail worker and voluntarily plowed our parking lots after every winter storm.
We rejected his warning that cooperation with machine addicts was a losing game in an effort to reach a truce. He proved to be wiser than us.
Jaybird62
03-25-2008, 11:47
We are all part of the hiking community in one way or another. This machine addict title that has been placed on people who like to use motorized recreational vehicles is insane. There have been some people who have posted here on wb that I am certainly nothing like and would not want one to think that just because I enjoy hiking, I share in their viewpoint of other things(legal,moral, whatever) There are responsible people who would do their part and could enjoy their outdoor experience riding the same way we enjoy ours hiking. BTW the only way I know how to post on a forum is by using a "machine". Just sayin'
We are all part of the hiking community in one way or another. This machine addict title that has been placed on people who like to use motorized recreational vehicles is insane. There have been some people who have posted here on wb that I am certainly nothing like and would not want one to think that just because I enjoy hiking, I share in their viewpoint of other things(legal,moral, whatever) There are responsible people who would do their part and could enjoy their outdoor experience riding the same way we enjoy ours hiking. BTW the only way I know how to post on a forum is by using a "machine". Just sayin'
Aside from changing a label I just invented a few minutes ago, how do you suggest we deal with ATV users who destroy gates, and chew up our trails on lands that we struggled to purchase and protect as quiet havens of wildness in an increasingly over developed community?
We are not villains. We encourage hunters and fishermen to use our lands and have even allowed some ATV access and offered even more access if the users would help us repair some of the damage they have caused.
Weary
some of the people i have came across around here on a atv, didn't know about the "laws" of the trail.
they also saw it as their backyard.
i know some people will still do this, but imo i think we need to find a way to educate the locals around all the areas of the AT and the rules that govern the trail.
Bulldawg
03-25-2008, 12:25
Aside from changing a label I just invented a few minutes ago, how do you suggest we deal with ATV users who destroy gates, and chew up our trails on lands that we struggled to purchase and protect as quiet havens of wildness in an increasingly over developed community?
We are not villains. We encourage hunters and fishermen to use our lands and have even allowed some ATV access and offered even more access if the users would help us repair some of the damage they have caused.
Weary
I say sue them if you cannot get your local authorities to help. If the local sheriff will not help, elect a new one. Maybe there is even one amongst your group who would run? I still am very upset by being lumped into this group. I own two ATVs and have never ever ridden anywhere I was not allowed to ride. A
gain, lumping the thousands (if not millions) of ATV owners in this Country into one big trashing the land, oil heads, machine addicted group is no different than seeing a can on the side of the trial and saying the entire hiking community is a bunch of morons who don't give a crap about the environment.
Jaybird62
03-25-2008, 12:29
Aside from changing a label I just invented a few minutes ago, how do you suggest we deal with ATV users who destroy gates, and chew up our trails on lands that we struggled to purchase and protect as quiet havens of wildness in an increasingly over developed community?
We are not villains. We encourage hunters and fishermen to use our lands and have even allowed some ATV access and offered even more access if the users would help us repair some of the damage they have caused.
Weary
It seems to me as though you guys are trying and they are not which is indeed a sad thing. How large of a group is this, and do you know if the illegal riding is being done by the group or just random atv users. It seems as though someone responsible needs to step forward on their behalf and work with you guys. Maybe better communication would help. It is certainly a tough issue, but from what you have told us, it does seem like you guys are trying to do the right thing:)
NorthCountryWoods
03-25-2008, 12:35
Aside from changing a label I just invented a few minutes ago, how do you suggest we deal with ATV users who destroy gates, and chew up our trails on lands that we struggled to purchase and protect as quiet havens of wildness in an increasingly over developed community?
We are not villains. We encourage hunters and fishermen to use our lands and have even allowed some ATV access and offered even more access if the users would help us repair some of the damage they have caused.
Weary
Don't have an answer to the question, but know why the animosity exists: "....our trails on lands that we struggled to purchase and protect as quiet havens...." which means they were excluded, which means from their point of view you've taken the initial adversarial position.
Not taking sides, just know from work with conservation easements and such that land use battles are never pretty. Somebody or group is always getting the short end of something.
RITBlake
03-25-2008, 12:36
I grew up not too far from you and it's the same here. With all the sandy trails through the pines, it's easy to get away from cops on an ATV. But, I can't believe they can't do something, especially with all the people coming down from PA with trailers loaded with ATVs. You see the trucks and empty trailers parked... can't be too hard to find these people.
Cops have more important things to be doingl
Jaybird62
03-25-2008, 12:39
Cops have more important things to be doingl
Yeah like bustin all those hippy smokers on the batona trail:p:eek:
No need to ban ATV's. My father-in-law commuted to work on one the last years before he retired.
Just ban ATV trailers. If you need a trailer with your ATV, you don't need an ATV. :D
BobTheBuilder
03-25-2008, 13:07
Come on, guys. I just finished a section last week that included the stretch mentioned in the very first post. It is an area with a lot of old logging roads, some used as the AT, most not. On a couple of those I saw some recent ATV tracks. Nothing destructive, no heavy use. Probably just somebody riding up to check on this mysterious AT thing. Can't we go back to whining about trekking poles digging up the trail and people smoking in shelters?
le loupe
03-25-2008, 13:22
Trekking poles!? who knew they were so controversial? I'm gonna have to look into this further...
sheepdog
03-25-2008, 13:41
Come on, guys. I just finished a section last week that included the stretch mentioned in the very first post. It is an area with a lot of old logging roads, some used as the AT, most not. On a couple of those I saw some recent ATV tracks. Nothing destructive, no heavy use. Probably just somebody riding up to check on this mysterious AT thing. Can't we go back to whining about trekking poles digging up the trail and people smoking in shelters?
Yeah...what he said..:sun:sun
smokymtnsteve
03-25-2008, 22:39
No need to ban ATV's. My father-in-law commuted to work on one the last years before he retired.
Just ban ATV trailers. If you need a trailer with your ATV, you don't need an ATV. :D
If you don't have a trailer for your ATV or snowmachine how do you haul heavy supples up the mountain to your cabin?
minnesotasmith
03-25-2008, 23:57
sounds like your friend has penis envy
Second, as regards PE: she's a feminist, so that's already implied.
Jim Adams
03-26-2008, 08:31
No need to ban ATV's. My father-in-law commuted to work on one the last years before he retired.
Just ban ATV trailers. If you need a trailer with your ATV, you don't need an ATV. :D
Well you've also just eliminated about 95% of the Harley riders out there!:D
geek
Jim Adams
03-26-2008, 08:36
A highly feminist (aging, divorced, no kids, natch) former coworker of mine related this to me. An even more feminist friend of hers attended a small college in a smaller town. She attended school one summer to find that every year there was a week-long monster truck convention in town during the summer term. For whatever reason, she found this highly offensive. The next summer, she was ready...
She had made up about 40 bumper stickers of the type that take high explosives to remove. About 4:00 A.M., she went around and placed these bumper stickers in prominent places on the largest of the monster trucks gracing her town (and parking spaces, etc.). The bumper stickers read, "I have to have a large truck, because my p*nis is really small.".
The truck owners were livid enough to have crucified her upside down until dead, had they caught her, but they never figured out who ruined the mood of their convention.
just another case of 1 person trying to rule the world because they don't agree with the obvious majority in the situation.
this is no different than putting bumperstickers on all cars at trailhead areas that say:
All hikers are law breaking, careless a$$holes...just ask the Holiday Inn at Hiawasse.
just making a point!:-?
geek
Tipi Walter
03-26-2008, 08:53
If you don't have a trailer for your ATV or snowmachine how do you haul heavy supples up the mountain to your cabin?
The tipi I lived at for a couple decades was on top of a ridge with a one mile trail to it. The climb was about 700 feet in elevation and I humped everything to it, a woodstove, tipi canvas, kerosene, you name it. I tried to cut a pretty trail with many switchbacks to lessen the work and I often thought when I hit my 70s and old age I might consider an ATV. Otherwise, I considered such a machine to be for the feeble and those ready for the nursing home. Pumping righteous nylon on two stout legs and walking to my home was what it was all about.
Lone Wolf
03-26-2008, 08:56
this whole thread is a non-issue. 99.9% of the AT is unaffected by ATV use
Jim Adams
03-26-2008, 09:16
this whole thread is a non-issue. 99.9% is unaffected by ATV use
very true!
geek
this whole thread is a non-issue. 99.9% of the AT is unaffected by ATV use
Yup, reminds me of the political threads. Lots of mindless whining, nothing gets done.
Cops have more important things to be doingl
maybe in the Bronx... but not here. :-?
gonna go ride my harley with loud pipes now
Thanks for choosing a vehicle with good fuel economy LW. We all know how much you care about environmental issues.
Thanks for choosing a vehicle with good fuel economy LW. We all know how much you care about environmental issues.
Shoot, those things spew out a whole dinosaur every turn of the crank. Perfect for LW, I'd guess. Mmm. Smell that fresh air! Lw, do you any hard ass long rides?
Lone Wolf
03-26-2008, 15:34
hard ass long rides?
Jaybird62
03-26-2008, 15:36
hard ass long rides?
Whoah man.....http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/F/0/24p.gif (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/talking_preview.jhtml?i=F/0/24&partner=ZSzeb075_ZNfox000%282%29)http://imgfarm.com/images/smileycentral/imbuddy/hear_me_talk.gif (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/talking_preview.jhtml?i=F/0/24&partner=ZNfox000%282%29)
hard ass long rides?
Some guys just mount up and ride for about as far as the road goes, then turn around and ride back. For the fun of it. They have a hard time walking for a few days, I understand. Guess you don't do that sort of think?
Lone Wolf
03-26-2008, 15:37
no. i guess i'm just a harleysniffer
Jaybird62
03-26-2008, 16:04
no. i guess i'm just a harleysniffer
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_8_211.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNfox000%282%29)Ride on Wolf man, ride on....
Tipi Walter
03-26-2008, 17:39
I went thru a long biker phase myself, but it was more about saving money(the little Honda 250 got about 75 miles to the gallon).
The first pic shows Willow and me on a "bike tour" of NC on my old 1970 BMW(Willow ended up thru-hiking the AT in 2006-check out her Trail Journal), and the next shows the Beamer fully loaded with me in full road battle gear. The last shows my old trusty 250 with Alice pack saddlebags.
Jaybird62
03-26-2008, 17:42
I went thru a long biker phase myself, but it was more about saving money(the little Honda 250 got about 75 miles to the gallon).
The first pic shows Willow and me on a "bike tour" of NC on my old 1970 BMW(Willow ended up thru-hiking the AT in 2006-check out her Trail Journal), and the next shows the Beamer fully loaded with me in full road battle gear. The last shows my old trusty 250 with Alice pack saddlebags.
Nice man.....:sun:sun:D
sheepdog
03-26-2008, 17:44
http://www.clipartof.com/images/clipart/thumbnail2/4903_bull_moose_riding_a_recreational_atv_four_whe eler.jpg (http://www.clipartof.com/details/clipart/4903.html) It might be who you least expect...wrecking the trail.
Jaybird62
03-26-2008, 17:47
http://www.clipartof.com/images/clipart/thumbnail2/4903_bull_moose_riding_a_recreational_atv_four_whe eler.jpg (http://www.clipartof.com/details/clipart/4903.html) It might be who you least expect...wrecking the trail.
I am just shocked!!!!!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_19.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNfox000%282%29)http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_21.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNfox000%282%29)
I'm with both Tipi and Wolf on this one. As much as I dislike ATVs, I have a higher tollerance for 'locals'. It's the folks that make way too much money in the city and then commute to their oversized vinyl box in the country and then tear it up with their overpowered and modified on top of that that bug the heck out of me.
When I lived in Victoria BC I had an 80cc Yamaha scooter that could do 60km/hr and get 100mpg with a red milk crate on the back for storage. I had to disconnect this tube to start it and then reconnect it once it did. Don't know why that worked but it did. Good times. 52 weeks without snow most years. Good for in town but I really should have gotten something bigger and driven up to the top of Vancouver Island and back.
Lone Wolf
03-26-2008, 18:34
i only get 40 mpg. but chicks think i'm smokin' hot. at least i got that goin' for me
Chick approval makes everything better.
I would prefer chicks that have seen Quadrophenia and dig it.
But for chick approval I'm definitely willing to roll with the times.
Jaybird62
03-26-2008, 20:09
i only get 40 mpg. but chicks think i'm smokin' hot. at least i got that goin' for me
Roll on wolf man, roll on.......
i only get 40 mpg. but chicks think i'm smokin' hot. at least i got that goin' for me
Have you been "cheesing?"
Lone Wolf
03-27-2008, 08:21
Have you been "cheesing?"
saw that show last night. :D
I will never hear that song again without a mental image.
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj132/l8tr_dude/kenny.jpg