Trail Fees

[Zzzzdyd]

I am starting my thru-hike the last of this Feb.. I just read a lot of the posts about the AMC buying large amounts of land in the 100 mile wilderness area. I have been planning my hike under the belief that I could hike the A.T. with out the requirement of fees. I am aware of the Hut system in the Whites, but have been thinking I had other options available and paying to camp, etc could be avoided if one chose to. I also thought that thru-hikers had access to Baxter State Park with-out fees.

After reading the post in the AMC diatribe I am concerned and confused now. If hiking the pathway is free, but access and camping fees are required along the trail, then I wouldn't consider the A.T. hiking experience nearly as high as I currently do.

I have hiked quite a bit in the Ga. part of the A.T and really like the many options about camping, shelters, etc.

If I "have" to pay fees in one form or another to get through the Whites and to get into Baxter then I will need to consider cancelling my hike.

Any factual info would be appreciated.

thanks

[Jack Tarlin]

Whoa!

Before you cancel your hike, you should know that there are almost no places on the Trail that charge a fee; there are a few places that limit where you can or cannot camp (such as the Smokies); there are a few places where camping is prohibited, usually for environmental reasons; there a very few places that get such high-use that a small overnight fee is charged; these fees go to pay the costs of having a permanent caretaker/overseer at these sites, without which the sites would be over-used and eventually destroyed. Most of these "fee" sites are in Vermont but don't worry---you don't have to camp at these places; there are lots of nearby alternatives.

There are few places that charge to stay in the White Mountains; some of these spots are care-taker tentsites (virually ALL of the Whites is considered a high-use area); there are also a few cabins/hut lodges that have varying rates. Nobody is forced to stay at these pay sites and there are lots of camping alternatives.

Lastly, there is a small overnight fee at Baxter, but this shouldn't keep you from going there; Baxter is a remarkably beautiful space, but as the crown jewel of the Maine State Park system, it takes a lot of work to keep it that way. ALL of the revenue taken in at Baxter stays in the Park so you can see where your entrance fee is going.


In short, there are very few places that charge on the Trail, and the very few that do have excellent reasons for doing so. If one disagrees with this policy, one doesn't have to stay at these places---happily, there are lots of other options for hikers. However, in the fraction of places where small entrance or user fees are charged, then users of these facilities should pay them. A public fee is just that----it applies to everyone that wishes to make use of that facility. Likewise, private property should be respected too; if you patronize a business on or near the Trail, then you shouldn't defraud them or avoid your obligations. As a voluntary user of a service, you should always pay for it. But as for hiking the Trail itself, 99% of the time you can camp for free, and within reason, in most circumstances, you can camp anywhere you wish. Don't let this uncertainty over "user fees" make you re-think your trip; essentially, it's a non-issue.

[Zzzzdyd]

I just got my new ATC Thru-hiker Companion and databook. I had got nervous reading the different posts about the AMC buying lots of land in the 100 mile wilderness area of Maine. The info in the Companion is good, but a little confusing to me. I am sure I will get it sorted out as my hike takes me closer to these Hut areas, etc.. I know there is no way I can make reservations at some Hut before I even leave for my hike. I just like feeling like I have choices, or if I have no choices about certain aspects of some endeavor, knowing this before I choose to participate.


I fully understand what your saying about fees being necessary at certain places. Like ticks on a good old dogs back though, I hope there is much attention paid and justification made on a regular basis regarding these fees.


I have read too much the past few years about user fees being collected at certain places, usually NPS places, where one only pays if one doesn't know any better.

Here in central Kentucky at least two different toll roads have had the tolls removed the past 10 years or so. Who knows maybe someone can figure out how to get at least some of the various fees regarding the A.T. removed. We can dream can we not ...

User fees for certain activities in the Grand Canyon area have become so high that only the rich can afford to participate more than once a year. I hope we don't let this happen to the A.T. .

[warren doyle]

You don't have to pay for lodging on the trail - there are many places to camp outside for free.
The trail itself is cheaper to walk on now than in the 70's ever since they eliminated the 10 cent toll to walk across the Bear Mountain Bridge. There is no charge to walk on the trail anywhere and I hope that continues forever.
You don't have to stay in a shelter (and pay a fee) in Baxter State Park before your finish your northbound journey.
Have a great hike.

[Jack Tarlin]

Warren said you don't have to stay in a shelter or pay a fee at Baxter in order to finish your thru-hike.

This is true, but ONLY if you don't plan to overnight in the Park; it is difficult to determine what Warren means in his recent post.....if he wants to inform folks that they can avoid certain fees by not overnighting in the Park, then he's absolutely right. But if he's saying that one can enjoy all of Baxter's facilities and offerings, including overnight camping, without paying for them, then he's very much mistaken. In that he's recently advocated (repeatedly) that hikers use whatever facilities and services they wish without necessarily paying for them, I just wanted to clarify his remarks a bit. Overnight Baxter stays, whether at shelters, campsites, or cabins, are not required. But if you do elect to use these reasonably-priced services, then it's further expected that you'll pay for them.

I'm assuming that this is what Warren meant. I can't imagine that he's publicly advocating that thru-hikers use Baxter however they wish, and that they are somehow exempt from public user fees there. If I'm mistaken, and if Warren actually does believe that this is how hikers should act when they arrive at Baxter, well I'll let him express and defend that himself.

[warren doyle]

Jack,
Your assumption is correct; however, your interpretation that "he's recently advocated (repeatedly) that hikers use whatever facilities and services they wish without necessarily paying for them" is different than what I interpret when I read my actual posts.
Happy trails!
Warren

[Frosty]

I'm assuming that this is what Warren meant. I can't imagine that he's publicly advocating that thru-hikers use Baxter however they wish, and that they are somehow exempt from public user fees there. If I'm mistaken, and if Warren actually does believe that this is how hikers should act when they arrive at Baxter, well I'll let him express and defend that himself.

This is awfully close to trolling, Jack. I enjoy the discussions that result when you and Warren discuss opposing positions, but it seems to me that you are deliberately misinterpreting him for the sake of sarcasm and eliciting a response.

Tom

[Rain Man]

.... I enjoy the discussions that result when you and Warren discuss opposing positions, ...

I suspect you are perhaps one of a very, very few.

The sort of pompous and petty tit-for-tat personal "Oh Yeah?!"-ing that goes on among some of these thin-skinned egoes really hurts WhiteBlaze. IMO.

Rain Man

.

[sloetoe]

[Quote] If I "have" to pay fees in one form or another to get through the Whites ... then I will need to consider cancelling my hike. [Quote]

I hiked the Whites in '02 with my (then) 8 year old twin sons. To pay into the AMC franchise is not feasible for me -- a divorced dad. (So much for "family" facilities...) I pumped all the SOBOs from Killington to Glencliff, and some "Stealth Site" maps from hither and yon, and summarized them into the following "Guide". We spent $zero traversing the Whites.

Be advised that there is one stretch -- Eisenhower->Washington->Madison 10m?) that is not only an alpine environment (*very* fragile, rare, slow regrowth vegatation), but has little in the way of big flat comfy slabs on which to sleep -- it is mostly 55g drum sized cobble that lacks a smooth square foot *anywhere*. Here is a good thread from Whiteblaze; you can find other resources with Google.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=291
Be advised too that my sons and I bivy, so if we can lay down, we're "home" -- I'd never want to look for a tent-sized footprint in the Whites. (Not *impossible* -- I just wouldn't want to do it.)

[March, 2003]
Short guide to stealthing the Whites:
1) Trail intersections (Walk 10' off the AT)
2) Mountain tops (Big glorious slabs of rock)
3) Separate Meals and Sleeping (Sleep Dry)
4) Fresh Maintenance (Cuttings telegraph sites)

Discussion:
1) Trail intersections congregate hikers *and* provide easy
on/off access to the AT. Both of these increase the
ease/likelihood of finding stealth sites nearby.

2) Mountain tops (or any other big, flat, rocky openings)
provide near perfect places to set up LNT sites that leave
*absolutely* no trace of your stay. Oh, and the views tend to be
supreme, too. Howsomeever, this also means that you'll have
to...

3)Separate your meals and your sleeping. Not a bad thing to get
in the habit of, it also means you can hike up to those mountain
tops without carrying dinner water on your back. (And you'll
probably eat dinner closer to the heat of the day, when a
respite from humping up a hill with a backpack might seem a good
idea.)

4) Lastly, as you're hiking, look for fresh maintenance, as the
clippings and blockages of small off-trails telegraphs AMC
attempts to hide great spots from you. Step lightly around and
keep the barrier undisturbed (that is LNT you're doing, right?).
Pick it up any trash and scatter any fire rings you find.

Sloetoe

[Jack Tarlin]

Frosty---

I'm sorry you interpreted my last post as "trolling." On the contrary, all I was doing was trying to clarify Warren's somewhat vague post. He said that one doesn't have to stay in a shelter and pay a fee in Baxter if one does not wish to. This is absolutely true; as I pointed out in my post, there are several ways one can avoid paying overnight user fees in Baxter----the easiest one is not to stay overnight.

The point of my post was that I was concerned with the deliberate vagueness of Warren's choice of words, and that it might lead folks to believe that one can use and enjoy Baxter for free, which is certainly NOT the case. I wanted folks to be sure that Warren's post was accurate only as long as one was not engaging in such activities as illicit camping, illegal overnight use of the Park, deliberate avoidance of public user fees, etc. Warren's post was vague and mis-leading; all I was doing was trying to clarify it so folks really understood what was expected of them at Baxter; this is hardly "trolling".

Rain Man: Sorry you don't like the tone of some of these threads and posts. I assure you my comments have very little to do with personality conflicts between me and anyone else; I assure you I would make the same comments regardless of who was posting them. Fact is, a well-known person in the long-distance hiking community has used this website to repeatedly, more times than I can count, relate how he goes where he pleases, trespasses where he pleases, obeys the rules and regulations that he pleases, and dis-regards whatever he pleases, under the mistaken impression that he is somehow absolved and removed from codes of behavior that apply to thousands of other hikers. Not only has he repeatedly bragged about doing this, he's also given detailed information telling other folks how they can behave likewise.

I happen to feel that this is wrong. I feel it's wrong to do this sort of thing; I think it's childish to brag about it; I think it's reprehensible to encourage others, and to educate others on how they can do likewise. I assure you, Rain Man, that I'd feel this way regardless of who was advocating or suggesting this sort of behavior.

I agree with you---this whole discussion has gone on too long, and comments and arguments have been stated and repeated too many times. So I'll say it one final time, and other folks can then say and do whatever they wish:

"User fees" apply to the public. Period. No individual hiker, regardless of their experience, mileage, or knowledge, is absolved from paying these fees. If you wish to avail yourself of a service that you encounter on the Trail, and if you are aware that there is a service fee involved in order to obtain, enjoy, or use this service, then it is expected that one pays the fee, and that one does so without whining, bitching, or rationalizing why one shouldn't have to pay it, shouldn't have to pay all of it, should get a discounted rate, etc. Whatever the service is, it's real simple: You want it? You need it? You've made the voluntary decision that this is something you want and need? Then shut up and pay for it like everyone else. End of story.

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea.....Fees. Trail Fees should be held to a minimum in most respects. Where it is neccessary to have fees related to neccessary 'High Traffic Impact Fees' or where The ATC or NPS reguard it as mandatory, they (fees) have to be paid by everyone. To try to slip under these madatory requirements is like denying that The Trail (itself) deserves the fee. Or saying, 'I love to hike The Trail', but I don't have to 'pay for the privelege' , like
everyone else. Kind o' cheesy...if you ask me. Jack Tarlin's, "You Want It? You Need It?....Then Shut Up And Pay For It Like Everyone Else"......Just about says it all>KZ@

[Blue Jay]

Yea.....Fees. Trail Fees should be held to a minimum in most respects. Where it is neccessary to have fees related to neccessary 'High Traffic Impact Fees' or where The ATC or NPS reguard it as mandatory, they (fees) have to be paid by everyone. To try to slip under these madatory requirements is like denying that The Trail (itself) deserves the fee. Or saying, 'I love to hike The Trail', but I don't have to 'pay for the privelege' , like
everyone else. Kind o' cheesy...if you ask me. Jack Tarlin's, "You Want It? You Need It?....Then Shut Up And Pay For It Like Everyone Else"......Just about says it all>KZ@

The only problem with your cheesy argument is the that the entire trail will be declared a "High Traffic Area". Remember when the first income tax was proposed a congressman stood up and said "But someday it might be increased to 10%" and he was laughed out of the building. You are like the frog who is put in a pot and the temperature is slowly increased. You'd never jump out until you are cooked. You want air, you need it, then shut up and pay for it like everyone else. Do you have to kiss Jack's butt on every post?

[Lone Wolf]

Watch it Blue Jay. You're gonna get threatening e-mail from Koz just like I did. You're harassing him. He's sensitive. :cool:

[Blue Jay]

Watch it Blue Jay. You're gonna get threatening e-mail from Koz just like I did. You're harassing him. He's sensitive. :cool:

I prefer just plain threatening, I'm old school.

[Kozmic Zian]

The only problem with your cheesy argument is the that the entire trail will be declared a "High Traffic Area". Remember when the first income tax was proposed a congressman stood up and said "But someday it might be increased to 10%" and he was laughed out of the building. You are like the frog who is put in a pot and the temperature is slowly increased. You'd never jump out until you are cooked. You want air, you need it, then shut up and pay for it like everyone else. Do you have to kiss Jack's butt on every post?Wow.....You're serious? What an attack....do you do that to every poster who writes something you don't agree with? I don't kiss up to anyone....You, Jack or the 'rest'. I mearly agree with some of the propositions he lays down. And as far as you go, Mr. Wolf, I've already asked you nicely not to make childish inuendo. BJ I'm rather surprised at you. Thought you had more integrity than to flat out attack someone like that. All I was saying is, you gotta' Pay TO Play, If you don't like that, too bad. I don't attack your posts. I read them and try to understand your point of view. You guys are like leaders of this forum, you of all folks here should have some degree of tolerance and understanding....if not, what's it all for. A couple of ho ho's to take over and dominate all of the posts. I think not. I think the majoraty of hikers involved in White Blaze. Net would like to feel they can post and say what they like, as you do without being verbally and publicly attacked. That said, thanks for your post an comment on the photo I put up! Peace....KZ

p.s. I sometimes think I should't let S*** like this bother me....I find it very hard to do. I guess I have a Viet Nam complex. My shield comes down, and I lock and load. That's why you won't see me do this kind of thing to another man, 'till I've walked a mile in his shoes'.

[Lone Wolf]

I don't hear you Mr. Zian. Your childish threatening via e-mail shows your character. You're a Viet vet. I'm a former Marine. Whoopee do!

[Blue Jay]

You guys are like leaders of this forum, you of all folks here should have some degree of tolerance and understanding....if not, what's it all for. A couple of ho ho's to take over and dominate all of the posts.

Oh yeah (that one was for the Rain Man, but I thought it was Oh no, underware on the Highway). Don't call me a leader, I walk alone. Now you can call me a ho ho, although I don't know what that means, I like the sound of it. As for dominating all of the posts, you post 2.47 times per day, I post 1.6, mostly throwing water on sanctimony.

[attroll]

:datz I don't understand the three of you. Why do you guys get so defensive? Maybe I should create another forum for you three called "Fighting Zone".

[smokymtnsteve]

:datz I don't understand the three of you. Why do you guys get so defensive? Maybe I should create another forum for you three called "Fighting Zone".


kin anybody git in on this here fighting zone forum...

us ole mtn folks love a feud


Hey, Babe, I hear'd you blow'd away
The sherriff, Holland Rose
Plugged 'im up with lead
From head to toes
Now your son's out a courtin
With his daughter, heaven knows!
This affair's bound to tear
The families into feudin' foes

Ima rose was a mountain beauty
Of the buxom type
Babe's son a dashing ex-marine
Now the two are shootin up the town
In a brand new model-t
I guess the families will be at it
Well into eternity

If your pa shoots my pa
There's a custom on this hill
My son 'll shoot your son
Cause we told 'im that he will
My brother will attest
That he's killed your very best
No love is ever lost after bad blood is spilled

Ima Rose was a mountain beauty
Of the buxom type
Babe's son a dashing ex-marine
Now the two are runnin' booze
In a brand new Model-T
I guess the families will be at it
Well into eternity

Well, Burnette, I read you're want
For the murder of Hol Rose
Wanted all the way to Idaho!
Now your son's out a datin'
The bodacious Ima Rose,
Yes they're armed to the teeth
And they're wearing fancy clothes




from "courting a feud"
cd "ways that are dark"
by Dan Gore (an ole hiking buddy if mine)

www.elephantrock.com

[azchipka]

You should all be advised in regards to stealth camping that it is illegal in the Whites, and any other park where camping is restricted. YOU WILL BE FINED in addition if you deside to have a fire or leave the area in a condition with trash any things even if its not yours the fine will be even more. This fine no matter what the conditions will be more expensive then it would have been to pay your camping fees or get a permit.

Camping is restricted to certain areas for the sake of protecting the wilderness and has been caused by people who do not have good outdoor ethics and have continued to make the wilderness a more endangered place. A perfect example of lack of outdoor ethics is ignoring park laws.

The biggest problem is in your efforts to stealth camp you are only forcing harder restrictions to be put in place to protect the area. If you insist on stealth camping anyways some things to make note off.

DO NOT SEPARATE YOUR MEALS AND SLEEPING by leaving your food behind at a location more then 1000' behind where you will be camping. This is simply asking for problems with wildlife.


4) Lastly, as you're hiking, look for fresh maintenance, as the
clippings and blockages of small off-trails telegraphs AMC
attempts to hide great spots from you. Step lightly around and
keep the barrier undisturbed (that is LNT you're doing, right?).
Pick it up any trash and scatter any fire rings you find.

In most cases area are closed for a specific reason. Entering a closed area will result in a higher fine the simply camping somewhere.

Just to put things in perspective for everyone. Fines for camping in areas that it is not permitted by the Forest Service start at $500, in areas not permitted by the NPS start at $1000.00, this does not included additonal fines also attached for fires, litter, and destruction of natural resources on protected land. Get caught stealth camping and you can find the fines in the $5,000.00 range with out to much effort from a ranger.

The choice is yours $10.00 to camp legal or the chance of much much more to do it illegaly.



Sloetoe[/QUOTE]

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea.....feudin'. You're in......I'm out!KZ@

[weary]

I had got nervous reading the different posts about the AMC buying lots of land in the 100 mile wilderness area of Maine. .

Except for an occasional scattered mile, the trail in Maine is all on public property. Except for the Hermitage near Gulf Hagas, which is owned by the Nature Conservancy, and in Baxter State Park, camping -- but not fires -- are allowed everywhere.

The AMC purchase does not in anyway change this. The trail corridor through the new AMC lands are owned by either the National Park Service, or the state of Maine, except that The Nature Conservancy owns a few hundred yards.

The dispute with AMC is not over use of the Appalachian Trail, but whether the presence of AMC overnight facilities adjacent to the trail will destroy the sense of wildness that hikers now enjoy.

Weary

[smokymtnsteve]

Yea.....fudein'. You're in......I'm out!KZ@

and here i was thinking you wuz a good ole mtn feller....don't you enjoy a good feud?

[Peaks]

There are places in the Whites were it is OK to camp, and places where it is not OK to camp. Read the rules.

Places where is it not OK to camp is above treeline (unless there is 2 feet of snow cover), within 1/4 mile of a hut or other established site, close to water, roads, etc. Read the rules.

[TJ aka Teej]

You should all be advised in regards to stealth camping that it is illegal in the Whites, and any other park where camping is restricted. YOU WILL BE FINED in addition if you deside to have a fire or leave the area in a condition with trash any things even if its not yours the fine will be even more.
Whoa, azchipka. The style of camping Sloe is talking about, called stealth camping up here, is legal and leaves no trace. In the Whites camping is restricted in certain areas and in certain ways. But you can camp almost anywhere below treeline, as Peaks points out. GAMErs will find lots of info on the wheres and hows at the Hiker's Welcome hostel in Glencliff. Some of the best tips are written on paper plates and thumbtacked to the wall.

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea.....Mtn Feller. Nope, I'm just here to have a little fun. These guys are waaaayyy to serious for little ole' me. See ya....KZ@

[rickb]

There are places in the Whites were it is OK to camp, and places where it is not OK to camp. Read the rules.
Exactly right. For the most part, people have not read the rules. When they do its often just the Web version which is a bit confusing (it muddles up the printed version's distinction between suggested LNT practices and the actual regulations). The long distance guidebooks may well not have them right either.

Even in most Wildeness Areas the White Mountains (of NH), its legal to stealth camp, so long as you are 200 feet away from a trail, and 1/4 mile away from a road or man-made facility, and not above tree line (where trees are less than 8 feet tall). Mostly. Not between Gorham and Maine. But heck, you can even buld a roaring fire in tmost Wilderness spots! Not that I'd recommend it, and not in them all. Most of the "rules" regarding bodies of water are still LNT recommendations, BTW.

Its also leagal to camp within a foot of the AT through out much of the White Mountains, thought I would definitely not recommend doing so. I'd also not recommend camping on top of a mountain, even when its legal, at least where others will stumble accross your site early in the AM. But if you do find people doing that, keep in mind that they may be well within their rules, and don't let the blood preasure rise :-)!

Rick B.

[Lone Wolf]

Sure Koz. :banana

[Nightwalker]

All I was saying is, you gotta' Pay TO Play, If you don't like that, too bad.

What are taxes for? And don't say "well you should pay more and they should pay less because you're hiking it and they're not", blah blah blah.

I pay school taxes, and I have no kids in school, but I'll bet you think that's different. :)

Frank

[Kozmic Zian]

Please, get outo' my face. Thank you....'cause I don't even know you, and could care less.......What is with you. It's not personal. Why do you negative responders have to be so childish? It's just a forum for expression. You have to quote me? What are you going to do....go up there and buy groceries and not pay for them. Stay in a hostel and not pay, of course you have to pay! Like it or not, life is not free.....are you 7 yrs old, or uneducated, in that case I could understand your point of view. If you don't pay, you can't play.....sorry...That is life.KZ@

Auuuuuhhh...Don't feel bad, it's all just a joke! :banana

[Nightwalker]

Please, get outo' my face. Thank you....'cause I don't even know you, and could care less!

You didn't address the argument, you just whined that someone was disagreeing with you!

If you can't take being disagreed with, don't post, because we ALL have a right to our opinions here, even you!

If you're gonna be that defensive out on the trail, you're gonna be one lonely fella. :banana

Frank

[Kozmic Zian]

:D Oh Yea.....All I did was express an opinion, defensive. I'm a loner anyway, kind of like BJ if you know what I mean.....All you're doing is whipping a dead horse.

[weary]

What are taxes for? And don't say "well you should pay more and they should pay less because you're hiking it and they're not", blah blah blah.


The trail was started by volunteers, the corridor was purchased by government as a last ditch effort to avoid the trail from disappearing along much of its length.

But it remains essentially a volunteer institution. But someone still has to pay the costs. Some costs are paid by the National Park Service and the US Forest Service through annual Congressional appropriations. But the bulk still comes from private donation of work and money.

The money portion of the cost in the Whites comes in part from fees charged by the AMC who have a contract with the Forest Service to maintain the campsites.

The same costs, however, occur at the campsites in Maine where the lands are mostly owned by the park service. MATC, like AMC, gets part of the cost of maintaining these sites from a Congressional Appropriation. But unlike AMC, we don't charge fees. Instead we beg for the needed money from our members and the trail community in general.

Those who dislike the AMC pattern need to remember that when they get their MATC dunning letters. You can't have it both ways. You can't expect a maintained trail without either paying fees or making contributions -- well I guess you can freeload on those who do pay or contribute.

Weary

[Kozmic Zian]

Sure Koz. :banana
Sure L. Wolf.:dance

[flyfisher]

You should all be advised in regards to stealth camping that it is illegal in the Whites, and any other park where camping is restricted. ....

Sloetoe[/QUOTE]

I hiked a couple days this summer in the whites. One overnight was out of Franconia Notch to Lincoln and Laffette and then down via the Greenleaf Hut.

Camping was not allowed in the Franconia State Park outside their campground. Camping was not allowed in the White Mountains National Forrest once the alpine region was reached. Camping was not allowed within a couple hundred feet of the trail. However, as I understood it, all that lower part of the mountain between the Krumholtz and the State Park was open to the hammock camping I was considering, once off the trail. This was all specified by 1997 laws.There were not many flat areas, but lots of hammock ready trees were ready for LNT camping.

I expect every other cross trail had the same sort of forrest available as well at lower elevations.

Am I right or wrong on this area being open for WMNF "stealth" camping off the trail and outside the Alpine regions?

Reference is the admittedly now outdated 26th edition of the AMC's White Mountain Guide, page xxiv.

[Nightwalker]

Those who dislike the AMC pattern need to remember that when they get their MATC dunning letters. You can't have it both ways. You can't expect a maintained trail without either paying fees or making contributions -- well I guess you can freeload on those who do pay or contribute.

Weary

Weary,

I have no trouble with fees and work to join trail maintaining clubs such as the GATC, work-for-stay, or parking fees at the trailheads. My problem, as I'm a poor guy, is when I get up north, I'm gonna be near broke at about the time that I'm gonna have very little choice but to pay-to-stay. At that point, if I'm not there early enough to get a work-for-stay, I'll have to break the law, and I don't like that. But what other choice will I have?

Frank

[MOWGLI]

Weary,

I have no trouble with fees and work to join trail maintaining clubs such as the GATC, work-for-stay, or parking fees at the trailheads. My problem, as I'm a poor guy, is when I get up north, I'm gonna be near broke at about the time that I'm gonna have very little choice but to pay-to-stay. At that point, if I'm not there early enough to get a work-for-stay, I'll have to break the law, and I don't like that. But what other choice will I have?

Frank

Frank, you have plenty of choices. One is to drop below treeline and camp. Since the terrain in the WMNF is pretty steep, it's an option few choose to take. It is an option however. You do not have to "pay to stay" if you don't want to. There are other options to breaking the law. You'll have to hike that far to figure that out.

Good luck.

[Blue Jay]

Weary,

I have no trouble with fees and work to join trail maintaining clubs such as the GATC, work-for-stay, or parking fees at the trailheads. My problem, as I'm a poor guy, is when I get up north, I'm gonna be near broke at about the time that I'm gonna have very little choice but to pay-to-stay. At that point, if I'm not there early enough to get a work-for-stay, I'll have to break the law, and I don't like that. But what other choice will I have?

Frank

Frank, please do not worry. It's only the Presidentials where this issue is even relevant and that is a tiny part of the AT. Weather permitting you can hike it in one day. At the very worst case you'll have to go below tree line and hike back up the next day. Many people on line make mountains out of molehills, others have never even been to NH. I worried about it to, all for nothing.

[Youngblood]

:datz I don't understand the three of you. Why do you guys get so defensive? Maybe I should create another forum for you three called "Fighting Zone".

I like that! Maybe we could 'rate the barbs', keep score and then have an anually playoff series to see who the champion is? :) Maybe we should have a poll and come up with an appropriate title for the champion?

Youngblood

[Blue Jay]

I like that! Maybe we could 'rate the barbs', keep score and then have an anually playoff series to see who the champion is? :) Maybe we should have a poll and come up with an appropriate title for the champion?

Youngblood

This post might prove Attrol's point about being defensive, but you mostly talk about sleeping bags, maps and the ever exciting sleeping pads. Not everyone likes to be bored to death. As for my title, I would prefer King Ahole.

[icemanat95]

Hammock campers have it easier than tent and tarpers as a general rule. You don't need much of a flat space for a hammock. For a tent you need a space at least flat enough to fit your sleeping pad and level enough that you don't slide downslope constantly in the night.

From close to the summit of Mt. Eisenhower to the downside of Mt. Madison is pretty much closed to camping. Camping above treeline, regardless of whether you camp on flat stone or not, is illegal. Don't do it. The rules apply to everyone.

It is also not advisable to camp out above treeline in the Prezzies anyhow. The weather can go down the tubes REAL fast up there and when a lighting storm crops up, the tops of those mountains look like bullseyes to the storm giants, and anyone on them makes a moving target.

Your least expensive, non-work for stay, but fee required options in the Prezzies include the Nauman tent sites at Mitzpah Hut, the Hermit Lake Shelters down in Tuckerman's Ravine, and the RMC facilities on the north slope of Mt. Adams including the tentsites at The Perch, the shelter at The Perch and the cabins at Greyknob and Crag Camp. The Nauman tent sites are just off the trail. The Hermit Lake shelters are a mile or so down into the Ravine, requiring maybe an hour to get to or from depending upon pace. I've made it up to the trail from the shelters in about 30 minutes before, but I was in great shape and we practically ran up the headwall. The RMC facilities are an easy mile or so off the trail, about 20-30 minutes each way for a tuned up thru-hiker. They are also pretty cheap and Greyknob has a caretaker who gets the weather reports from the observatory. Both Greyknob and Crag are open in the winter. Greyknob has a woodstove to keep the temps just around freezing inside. The caretaker handles the care and feeding of that. It's a great basecamp for winter summit attempts and skill development. 7-8 bucks a night.

Once you get below treeline on the north side of Madison, there are a number of tentsites, both for fee (Osgood tent sites) and not. There are legal tent sites just off the trail and without fees almost right up to the Pinkham Notch facilities. At Clam Rock you can camp within 15 meters or so of the river. That's a great place just to hang out, light a small campfire and watch the sunset and the moonrise from the top of the rock.

For those of you who will only be going through the Whites once in your lives, I strongly recommend that you program extra time for yourselves through this section. Don't worry so much about forward progress on the AT unless you are getting pressed for time to get to Baxter. Take some side trails. Climb down into Tuckerman's Ravine, take a walk back up to the summit of Mt. Washington via the Huntington Ravine Trail. Explore around the Alpine Garden, walk out onto the Castellated Ridge off the summit of Mt. Jefferson. Take it easy and enjoy the alpine environment. These little side trips to lower cost shelters can save you money and facilitate some greater exploration of the Presidentials.

One of the problems with thru-hiking is that "thru" bit. Thru-hikers, myself included, often seem to get too focussed on the AT and making the miles, and forget about the mountains around them. Do some research and see what else is around out there and do some exploring. Take a side trip down Gulf Hagas, take side trips in the Smokies if you can manage it. Look around, there is more to all these regions than just the AT.

As far as cash is concerned, it can definitely be a problem. But the choices you make elsewhere can free up cash for other things. The cost of a tent platform or shelter space in the Whites is less than the cost of a large pizza or a couple bottles of beer in a bar. I spent more money on alcohol and food in Hanover than I did on my Hut stay at Mitzpah (that round of Jaegermeister ran to around 40 bucks or so). That was the last hangover I had and the last time I was drunk. I don't regret that evening, but I'm not going to repeat it either. That was a good example of a choice that could have a serious impact on your cash flow. Party less or not at all in towns, or economize a bit more before hitting the trail and you will have enough cash available to pay for a campsite or two in the whites.

I am not averse to paying additional user fees to support the maintenance of trails and the lands that the trails pass through. If those lands are so invaluable to us, we should not feel any hesitation in paying a little extra to maintain and protect them.

[TJ aka Teej]

For those of you who will only be going through the Whites once in your lives, I strongly recommend that you program extra time for yourselves through this section. Don't worry so much about forward progress on the AT unless you are getting pressed for time to get to Baxter. Take some side trails. Climb down into Tuckerman's Ravine, take a walk back up to the summit of Mt. Washington via the Huntington Ravine Trail. Explore around the Alpine Garden, walk out onto the Castellated Ridge off the summit of Mt. Jefferson. Take it easy and enjoy the alpine environment. These little side trips to lower cost shelters can save you money and facilitate some greater exploration of the Presidentials.

One of the problems with thru-hiking is that "thru" bit. Thru-hikers, myself included, often seem to get too focussed on the AT and making the miles, and forget about the mountains around them. Do some research and see what else is around out there and do some exploring. Take a side trip down Gulf Hagas, take side trips in the Smokies if you can manage it. Look around, there is more to all these regions than just the AT.
Excellent advice, IceMan. I suggest even staying at an AMC Hut, to sample that particular side of the White Mountains too.

[The Old Fhart]

Icemanat95 is only partly right in his advice about maximizing your enjoyment in the Whites. I wouldn't limit trying to get the most out of your hike to just the Whites. Although I have hiked in the Whites since 1960 and am partial to them, I say follow his advice on the whole trail. If you approach the entire trail as a chance to expand you horizions (that pun is kinda tacky, I know) and get to see more of the people who live along the trail, the local points of interest that could be only slightly off the trail, and have a sense of wonder about everything you see, You will have a great hike. You will come to realize that Katahdin is only the end of a northbound hike, the hike itself is everything.