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Swiss Roll
03-28-2008, 17:11
I am moving to ultralight gear and I see a lot about quilts, but I don't see a lot of discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of quilts. Is this mostly a hammock users thing? I am a tent sleeper and I was thinking of going with a Montbell SS bag. Should I consider a quilt? Why? Thanks for the input.

troglobil
03-28-2008, 17:35
Basically; with a bag, you are compressing what is underneath you so it provides no insulating value. Rather than pay for and carry non-insulating insulation, use a quilt.

wakapak
03-28-2008, 17:48
Wouldnt quilts be heavier than most bags though??

taildragger
03-28-2008, 17:53
Wouldnt quilts be heavier than most bags though??

Depends on you cut them. I don't use em' but I've considered making one for summer backpacking, I figure I can make it lighter and less expensive than most 40* bags.

Two Speed
03-28-2008, 17:55
Wouldnt quilts be heavier than most bags though??I don't think so. Remember, you're loosing the zipper and all the seams, stitching, etc that goes with it. A friend on mine has just gotten one and says that it's a little hot. Roughly the same weight as the bag he was using recently, but all the weight is "invested" in the loft, not zippers, draw strings, etc.

It's a change I'm probably gonna make in the next coupla months, along with transitioning to a tarp.

Marta
03-28-2008, 17:55
Basically; with a bag, you are compressing what is underneath you so it provides no insulating value. Rather than pay for and carry non-insulating insulation, use a quilt.

This is the rationale for quilts. In fact, having used both, I can say that you do get some insulating value from the compressed material underneath you AND a zipped-up sleeping bag has a huge amount of draft-stopping power. When I have used quilts towards the bottom end of their temperature range, I spend a lot of time awake, trying to finagle the quilt to eliminate the drafts. At this point, I almost always carry a sleeping bag, but use it as a quilt, unless the weather is very cold. Then I zip it up.:rolleyes:

ScottP
03-28-2008, 18:04
I love quilts. I can't see myself using a sleeping bag for anything above 10F or so.

Allen66
03-28-2008, 18:17
This is the rationale for quilts. In fact, having used both, I can say that you do get some insulating value from the compressed material underneath you AND a zipped-up sleeping bag has a huge amount of draft-stopping power. When I have used quilts towards the bottom end of their temperature range, I spend a lot of time awake, trying to finagle the quilt to eliminate the drafts. At this point, I almost always carry a sleeping bag, but use it as a quilt, unless the weather is very cold. Then I zip it up.:rolleyes:

Seems as though you would have to be a motionless sleeper to avoid freezing your butt off.

Swiss Roll
03-28-2008, 18:17
ScottP, tell me why you like them better than a bag. What about drafts like Marta said? Do you use an inflatable pad, foam, etc.? How do you set it up at night- tuck it under the pad or what? Thanks.

ScottP
03-28-2008, 18:32
1. Quilts are significantly lighter
2. Quilts are generally cheaper
3. Quilts are often warmer (you can wrap them around yourself so they fit your body perfectly, whereas a sleeping bag will have more dead air space that costs warmth), 4. Quilts can be wrapped around you in camp to stay warm while sitting up, eliminating the need for a down jacket
5. Quilts are more comfortable at warmer temperatures (since you can use it like a blanket),
6. Quilts are more comfortable for side or stomach sleepers
7. Quilts are more comfortable if you toss and turn a lot.

I use a torso-length foam pad and a small groundcloth. I use my food bag as a pillow.

There aren't drafts once you get used to sleeping in one--it takes some practice, as silly as that sounds.

The key is to get 2-4 inch nylon flaps along the sides, and tuck those under your shoulders and knees at night. This will hold the insulation portion of the down in place. If it gets really cold then I curl up a little more and also wrap the quilt around my head and face, exposing just my mouth to breathe.

I have a nunatak arc alpinist, and I love it. I have around 3500 miles on it, and hope to add just as many to it this season.

Swiss Roll
03-28-2008, 19:03
Thanks for the response, Scott. Do you have any problems with foot drafts or does it close up at the bottom somehow?

hopefulhiker
03-28-2008, 19:17
I successfully used a quilt from Damascus to Kytadin....It was the Nunatak back country blanket.. It had some velcro on the edges and drawstrings on each end so you could use it like a sleeping bag. Also I took an inulated air mattress with me and silk liner... I was rarely cold and the comfort more than made up for it.. The thing was made out of 800 down and was rated to 20 degrees.. with the BA air mattress and silk liner it was good below that too..

The comfort of this system was great! It was like sleeping a home.. A big two inch mattress, with a silk sheet liner and then a blanket spread over the top! The blanet was wide enough to seal off the air around the mattress and make for a warm bed....

I liked it because it was lighter, more compact and more versatile than a sleeping bag. Plus you can use it as a comforter at home!

Frolicking Dinosaurs
03-28-2008, 19:47
I use an Exped Wallcreeper (http://www.outdoorresearch.com/site/wallcreeper.html). It is a very versatile piece of equipment. Like Marta, I generally use it as a quilt unless it's really nippy - then I zip it up and close up the foot area. It can be worn in camp which eliminates the need for a down jacket. Unlike the illustration on the website, I use the hood on my head when I use is as a quilt - toasty warm Dino neck and ears. I also use a cheap, light summer-weight rectangular bag (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=129749) as a quilt over both Dinos in cold weather - it extends the temp range of our bags about 20 degrees.

wakapak
03-28-2008, 19:49
I use an Exped Wallcreeper (http://www.outdoorresearch.com/site/wallcreeper.html). It is a very versatile piece of equipment. Like Marta, I generally use it as a quilt unless it's really nippy - then I zip it up and close up the foot area. It can be worn in camp which eliminates the need for a down jacket. Unlike the illustration on the website, I use the hood on my head when I use is as a quilt - toasty warm Dino neck and ears. I also use a cheap, light summer-weight rectangular bag (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=129749) as a quilt over both Dinos in cold weather - it extends the temp range of our bags about 20 degrees.

That wallcreeper looks pretty cool FD!!! Thanks for sharing...i think some mornings i wouldnt want to get outta it!! :p

Dirtygaiters
03-28-2008, 20:54
1. Quilts are significantly lighter
2. Quilts are generally cheaper
3. Quilts are often warmer (you can wrap them around yourself so they fit your body perfectly, whereas a sleeping bag will have more dead air space that costs warmth), 4. Quilts can be wrapped around you in camp to stay warm while sitting up, eliminating the need for a down jacket
5. Quilts are more comfortable at warmer temperatures (since you can use it like a blanket),
6. Quilts are more comfortable for side or stomach sleepers
7. Quilts are more comfortable if you toss and turn a lot.


To each his own and I'm sure you do prefer quilts to bags. However, I think all those points (except the one about quilts being cheaper) can be made of a good mummy bag with a full zipper. To be fair, the quilts with a head hole in the middle which can be worn as a poncho are really cool, but there are sleeping bags that can be worn around camp and it's just a matter of time (or if you make your own gear it's just a matter of imagination) before more wearable sleeping bags are available.

Let me explain...
1. Quilts are significantly lighter - This is a misconception. Compare apples (http://www.nunatakusa.com/site07/arc_products/arc_alpinist.htm) to apples (http://www.nunatakusa.com/site07/other_bags/alpinist.htm). Or compare a standard 30*F bag (http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=ExtremeLite%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=69)to a standard 30*F quilt (http://www.jacksrbetter.com/index_files/Products%20List_files/No%20Snivelling%20Quilt.htm).
2. Quilts are generally cheaper - True if you make your own (sleeping bags also can be fairly cheap if you make your own), although Jacks R Better and Nunatak both have some pretty STEEP prices on their quilts if you're buying them pre-made.
3. Quilts are often warmer (you can wrap them around yourself so they fit your body perfectly, whereas a sleeping bag will have more dead air space that costs warmth) - Warmer is subjective and objective. Subjectively, yes, you can certainly "bundle up" with a quilt. However, if you unzip a sleeping bag, you can do the same with a bag... Objectively, I really don't think quilts are warmer than bags. With a bag you have both a hood and the ability to completely seal them up to stop drafts. There are comparable systems with quilts, but they are not as heat-efficient as the bag design.
4. Quilts can be wrapped around you in camp to stay warm while sitting up, eliminating the need for a down jacket - Very true, especially some of the JRB quilts with that essential head hole feature. However there are some sleeping bag designs that allow this. The Nunatak Raku and the Exped Wallcreeper come to mind. It would also be a rather simple matter to install a head slit in a sleeping bag...
5. Quilts are more comfortable at warmer temperatures (since you can use it like a blanket), - Very true. Although there are many sleeping bags with full zippers which convert into essentially "quilts". Quilts are generally more weight-efficient in the wamer temperatures when drafts are not a concern, though. I've got to admit that.
6. Quilts are more comfortable for side or stomach sleepers - As a side sleeper who has used quilts and bags, I've got to say that this is not true at all! As soon as a side sleeper switches from one side to the other, the quilt potentially comes un-tucked and nighttime acrobatics must be used to reposition it without waking up too much more from the effort (I've already been woken up by the cold draft on my back...
7. Quilts are more comfortable if you toss and turn a lot. - It sounds like you don't toss and turn very much if you say this...


I don't mean to say quilts aren't good or that I will never again use a quilt. To each his own to be sure! I even prefer a small 2/3-quilt in the summertime to my bag because I don't need a whole lot of insulation at night in summer. I'm just saying, there are a lot of misconceptions surrounding quilts, and a good mummy bag with a full zipper is really hard to beat in terms of any of the things that quilt users typically claim, except perhaps that in the summer a full sleeping bag (even a too-warm quilt) can be overkill, depending on what part of the country you are in.

Marta
03-28-2008, 22:00
Thanks, Dirtygaiters, for making all the points I wanted to make, except that I hate to start arguing with someone who has found a piece of gear that works incredibly well for him/her, even if that thing doesn't work well at all for me.

The thing that tipped me from quilts back to sleeping bags was that if I cut down the width of the quilt in order to get the promised weight savings, I had big problems with drafts. In order to make a quilt that didn't have draft problems, I had to make the thing big enough to pretty much tuck all the way underneath me--in other words, it was as big as a sleeping bag, minus the zipper. So I happily went back to sleeping bags, and stopped fighting the drafts.

BTW, I'm a cold sleeper and usually a light sleeper. The draft thing really becomes an issue for me when the temperatures drop below about 40. Quilts are definitely a summer thing for me.

take-a-knee
03-28-2008, 22:11
Quilts rule in a hammock but a Wallcreeper/Rock Wren works just as well. If I'm forced to sleep on the ground I'll carry a bag.

take-a-knee
03-28-2008, 22:13
The biggest downside of a quilt is keeping your head covered, once it gets below freezing, it doesn't matter how thick that quilt is, you WILL be cold if your head is even partially uncovered.

Tinker
03-29-2008, 00:20
The above point isn't totally accurate. You can wear a hat in your sleeping bag to keep your head warm. You can also use the hood from a down jacket or a JRB down hood for the same purpose.
Since I sleep on my side in the fetal position often (yes, in my hammock :)), I doubt that a quilt would work for me. It would have to be very wide for good coverage.
I have used, for some time, my summer bag as a quilt, leaving the full zipper unzipped in warm weather, and have also used it to cover my toddler son (just turned 23) and I when I was saving some weight.

ScottP
03-29-2008, 00:33
Get out there and find out what works best for you. If you don't want a huge investment and want to try a quilt, there are some cheap synthetic ones from fanatic fringe. The Ray Way kits are great as well.

take-a-knee
03-29-2008, 08:19
The above point isn't totally accurate. You can wear a hat in your sleeping bag to keep your head warm. You can also use the hood from a down jacket or a JRB down hood for the same purpose.
Since I sleep on my side in the fetal position often (yes, in my hammock :)), I doubt that a quilt would work for me. It would have to be very wide for good coverage.
I have used, for some time, my summer bag as a quilt, leaving the full zipper unzipped in warm weather, and have also used it to cover my toddler son (just turned 23) and I when I was saving some weight.

A balaclava works okay to stop heat loss from your head down into the forties, below that you need a lot more insulation. Ray Jardine has a kit for a Bomber hat but something like a Bozeman Mountain Works balaclava would be better since it has about four times the loft of a fabric one. My Jardine quilt is very comfortable in my hammock and I also usually sleep on my side.

peter_pan
03-29-2008, 08:31
To each his own and I'm sure you do prefer quilts to bags. However, I think all those points (except the one about quilts being cheaper) can be made of a good mummy bag with a full zipper. To be fair, the quilts with a head hole in the middle which can be worn as a poncho are really cool, but there are sleeping bags that can be worn around camp and it's just a matter of time (or if you make your own gear it's just a matter of imagination) before more wearable sleeping bags are available.

Let me explain...
1. Quilts are significantly lighter - This is a misconception. Compare apples (http://www.nunatakusa.com/site07/arc_products/arc_alpinist.htm) to apples (http://www.nunatakusa.com/site07/other_bags/alpinist.htm). Or compare a standard 30*F bag (http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=ExtremeLite%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=69)to a standard 30*F quilt (http://www.jacksrbetter.com/index_files/Products%20List_files/No%20Snivelling%20Quilt.htm).
2. Quilts are generally cheaper - True if you make your own (sleeping bags also can be fairly cheap if you make your own), although Jacks R Better and Nunatak both have some pretty STEEP prices on their quilts if you're buying them pre-made.
3. Quilts are often warmer (you can wrap them around yourself so they fit your body perfectly, whereas a sleeping bag will have more dead air space that costs warmth) - Warmer is subjective and objective. Subjectively, yes, you can certainly "bundle up" with a quilt. However, if you unzip a sleeping bag, you can do the same with a bag... Objectively, I really don't think quilts are warmer than bags. With a bag you have both a hood and the ability to completely seal them up to stop drafts. There are comparable systems with quilts, but they are not as heat-efficient as the bag design.
4. Quilts can be wrapped around you in camp to stay warm while sitting up, eliminating the need for a down jacket - Very true, especially some of the JRB quilts with that essential head hole feature. However there are some sleeping bag designs that allow this. The Nunatak Raku and the Exped Wallcreeper come to mind. It would also be a rather simple matter to install a head slit in a sleeping bag...
5. Quilts are more comfortable at warmer temperatures (since you can use it like a blanket), - Very true. Although there are many sleeping bags with full zippers which convert into essentially "quilts". Quilts are generally more weight-efficient in the wamer temperatures when drafts are not a concern, though. I've got to admit that.
6. Quilts are more comfortable for side or stomach sleepers - As a side sleeper who has used quilts and bags, I've got to say that this is not true at all! As soon as a side sleeper switches from one side to the other, the quilt potentially comes un-tucked and nighttime acrobatics must be used to reposition it without waking up too much more from the effort (I've already been woken up by the cold draft on my back...
7. Quilts are more comfortable if you toss and turn a lot. - It sounds like you don't toss and turn very much if you say this...


I don't mean to say quilts aren't good or that I will never again use a quilt. To each his own to be sure! I even prefer a small 2/3-quilt in the summertime to my bag because I don't need a whole lot of insulation at night in summer. I'm just saying, there are a lot of misconceptions surrounding quilts, and a good mummy bag with a full zipper is really hard to beat in terms of any of the things that quilt users typically claim, except perhaps that in the summer a full sleeping bag (even a too-warm quilt) can be overkill, depending on what part of the country you are in.

Dirtygaiters,

You make some good points... However.... some are a little off base.

Para 1. Your apples to apples really could be better select....The JRB Hudson River is a more direct comparision....Both are 19 oz, yet the loft of the HR is about 20 percent higher..... Real weight point is that if all the nominal 30 degree down bags were lined up the quilt would beat 70 percent or more that don't come up to the quality of the bag example you selected.

Para 2. This is way off base....
First, staying with the apples to apples example.....Your 30* bag is regularly $300 and the JRB Hudson River is regularly $220....That is significantly less cost in my book....Even compared to the more popular No Sniveller, with the resealable head hole, you chose, the NS is regularly $250...Again way less cost.

peter_pan
03-29-2008, 08:46
Dirtygaiters,

You make some good points... However.... some are a little off base.

Para 1. Your apples to apples really could be better select....The JRB Hudson River is a more direct comparision....Both are 19 oz, yet the loft of the HR is about 20 percent higher..... Real weight point is that if all the nominal 30 degree down bags were lined up the quilt would beat 70 percent or more that don't come up to the quality of the bag example you selected.

Para 2. This is way off base....
First, staying with the apples to apples example.....Your 30* bag is regularly $300 and the JRB Hudson River is regularly $220....That is significantly less cost in my book....Even compared to the more popular No Sniveller, with the resealable head hole, you chose, the NS is regularly $250...Again way less cost.

Pushed the wrong button.... reply to dirtygaiters continues.

Second, painting two manufactures with the same cost brush is way off distortion for readers and inaccurate portrayal to the manufactures.... JRB quilts, when compared to similiar sized, fill, are approximately25-40 less than the manufacturer you cited.... It is also fair to them to note that they are a custom shop where the customer can have many personal choices for those prices, which is very fair for custom work.
Third, the recently introduced Ultra 20 by Go-lite is regularly $225. The very close comparision of the Hudson River by JRB (Selected "apple" from above) is regularly $ 220.

As a Co-owner of JRB I am biased.... These points on weight and cost, however, are public facts.

That said, quilts are not for everyone. HOYH.

Pan

Doctari
03-29-2008, 08:55
I slowly switched to a quilt. Started out using my sleeping bag as a quilt Jan of 07, then I cut the zipper off "to save weight" & to see how that worked out, after the next overnighter I cut a bit more off the former sleeping bag, then a little more. In the end I reduced my sleeping bag now a quilt by 1 lb (it was a heavy cheep OLD sleepig bag.) As a quilt it was MUCH WARMER than as a sleeping bag; partly because I had gotten a bit larger than the SB was designed for so stretched the insulation, & partly because I could as stated above tuck the quilt under & around me.
I have now switched to a RayWay quilt. I ain't ever going back to a bag!!!! It got to 30 last night & I was warm as toast, even had to uncover a few times to cool off. I havent tried it on the ground yet, but did lay on my bed with it, it stayed in place just fine. With the alpine upgrade as I have, & cut to fit me (5'7" 220 Lbs) the quilt weighs just under 2 Lbs, & fits a #4 OR sil nylon stuff sack with ease. Im sure that I could get down to 20 degrees with this quilt, & knowing ME, I think that 10 or lower is easily doable.
BTW: my sleeping bag turned quilt and the RayWay quilt have a foot pocket. I think this is an important feature. Don't ask why.

Dirtygaiters
03-29-2008, 15:13
Peter Pan,
Like Marta pointed out, it's often not that productive to debate people on their personal preferences for sleeping. Some people will like one thing and others will like another. You are very much a quilt person and hey that's great. I am very much a bag person, though, and while we can debate prices and weights, I don't really think that either of us will be able to really convince the other which is the better option. I can say, "they don't zip up and they don't have hoods" all I want, but if I actually was able to convince you to change to bags, I wouldn't at all be satisfied with what I had accomplished. Go figure.

I really don't know the difference between the No Sniveller and the Hudson River quilt since the website specs say that both have the same loft at 2.5", but the No Sniveller is the one people commonly refer to when they mention a benchmark quilt so I used that for the comparison. Yes, the prices of the JRB quilts are generally less than the best sleeping bags out there, but the prices of the Nunatak quilts are not, and the rest of the time when people refer to quilts, they are talking about Nunatak quilts, and since they have such a radically different design, I think their prices need to be taken into comparison to really consider quilts. To take that a step further, even if a finished quilt costs $50 less than a finished sleeping bag, there are less materials in the quilt, simply by square yardage. Less time is required to manufacture a good quilt simply because they are rectangular, their construction does not require the attachment of a three dimensional hood or the installation of a zipper and draft tube. So when it's broken down like that, I really don't think the already small price difference you mention is that significant. And you still have those Nunatak quilts to consider when comparing prices.

peter_pan
03-29-2008, 16:43
Peter Pan,
Like Marta pointed out, it's often not that productive to debate people on their personal preferences for sleeping. Some people will like one thing and others will like another. You are very much a quilt person and hey that's great. I am very much a bag person, though, and while we can debate prices and weights, I don't really think that either of us will be able to really convince the other which is the better option. I can say, "they don't zip up and they don't have hoods" all I want, but if I actually was able to convince you to change to bags, I wouldn't at all be satisfied with what I had accomplished. Go figure.

I really don't know the difference between the No Sniveller and the Hudson River quilt since the website specs say that both have the same loft at 2.5", but the No Sniveller is the one people commonly refer to when they mention a benchmark quilt so I used that for the comparison. Yes, the prices of the JRB quilts are generally less than the best sleeping bags out there, but the prices of the Nunatak quilts are not, and the rest of the time when people refer to quilts, they are talking about Nunatak quilts, and since they have such a radically different design, I think their prices need to be taken into comparison to really consider quilts. To take that a step further, even if a finished quilt costs $50 less than a finished sleeping bag, there are less materials in the quilt, simply by square yardage. Less time is required to manufacture a good quilt simply because they are rectangular, their construction does not require the attachment of a three dimensional hood or the installation of a zipper and draft tube. So when it's broken down like that, I really don't think the already small price difference you mention is that significant. And you still have those Nunatak quilts to consider when comparing prices.

Dirtygaiters,

The purpose of my post was in no way attempting to persuade you which is better.... Note clearly my close, "Quilts are not for everyone. HYOH."

My post was only to point out the inconsitencies/inaccuracies of your countering comments to ScottP's intial list, with which you chose to disagree.

Pan

ScottP
03-29-2008, 17:33
Packsniffin' cyberhikers.

GGS2
03-29-2008, 17:39
Packsniffin' cyberhikers.

LW, you've changed your id!

Dirtygaiters
03-29-2008, 17:58
Packsniffin' cyberhikers.

Um, the cyberhikers I've seen all prefer quilts. Just spend one sub-freezing night on the trail with a quilt and you'll be wishing to all that's holy that that thing zipped up.

astrogirl
03-29-2008, 19:27
I've got a few hundred miles on my Nunatak BCB, and I backpack almost exclusively in the spring, and early spring at that.

I was happy with it on the ground, and I'm happy with it in the hammock, though I do use a silk liner and wear clean, dry and fluffy sleep socks. I wear a fleece hoodie with a hat under it if it's cold and that keeps drafts off my neck. I also use a CCF pad in the hammock, at least so far. I haven't slept in the hammock above 32 yet. :)

ScottP
03-29-2008, 21:37
Gotta love the ignore function.

GGS2
03-29-2008, 21:46
Um, the cyberhikers I've seen all prefer quilts. Just spend one sub-freezing night on the trail with a quilt and you'll be wishing to all that's holy that that thing zipped up.

I think it must be a hammocking thing. I had to spend a night in an undersized bag, using it like a quilt, and I was always twisting this way and that trying to stop the drafts and rewarm the cold bits. In the end, I got up before dawn and went to look at the sunrise. On the ground, a quilt always seems to need to be oversized. I think maybe the Big Agnes idea might be an efficient compromise.

The hammock with a quilt top and bottom might work well, though.

tlbj6142
03-31-2008, 00:19
I like my homemade down quilt, because it allows me to sleep on my stomach. Can't do that with a regular bag. As a bonus, I save some weight.

Also works great for those few times I use my hammock.

If you have no problems sleeping on your back, a regular bag works out fine. And probably cheaper. I can sleep on my back but it takes 3-4 nights out before I can do it without issue (too tired to care). Most of my trips are only 2-5 nights which means I'd like to sleep well from the get go, which for me means stomach sleeping. Only issue I have with stomach sleeping is I need a longer pad (I use a prolite 3 s) since my thighs and knees need some protection. If I can commit to back sleeping I could get by with a shorter pad (torso only).

SteveJ
03-31-2008, 01:51
Um, the cyberhikers I've seen all prefer quilts. Just spend one sub-freezing night on the trail with a quilt and you'll be wishing to all that's holy that that thing zipped up.

hmm....I've actually spent several nights in the Shining Rock Wilderness Area in the low teens w/ high wind with my homemade 22 oz quilt - in my hammock - and was comfortably cozy.....

Note the down "puffy" jacket on our hiking buddy (and note that the dog IS leashed)...and that was before sundown....

High Altitude
03-31-2008, 02:04
Um, the cyberhikers I've seen all prefer quilts. Just spend one sub-freezing night on the trail with a quilt and you'll be wishing to all that's holy that that thing zipped up.

just spent two nights in my golite ultra 20 quilt, no bivy and no tent/tarp.

28 and 24 deg.

At 24 deg I definitely needed to wear my micropuff pull over and fleece pants (which I always bring) to bed but I was warm. 21.5 oz in the stuff sack for the long size.

River Runner
03-31-2008, 02:22
Peter Pan,
Like Marta pointed out, it's often not that productive to debate people on their personal preferences for sleeping. Some people will like one thing and others will like another. You are very much a quilt person and hey that's great. I am very much a bag person, though, and while we can debate prices and weights, I don't really think that either of us will be able to really convince the other which is the better option. I can say, "they don't zip up and they don't have hoods" all I want, but if I actually was able to convince you to change to bags, I wouldn't at all be satisfied with what I had accomplished. Go figure.

I really don't know the difference between the No Sniveller and the Hudson River quilt since the website specs say that both have the same loft at 2.5", but the No Sniveller is the one people commonly refer to when they mention a benchmark quilt so I used that for the comparison. Yes, the prices of the JRB quilts are generally less than the best sleeping bags out there, but the prices of the Nunatak quilts are not, and the rest of the time when people refer to quilts, they are talking about Nunatak quilts, and since they have such a radically different design, I think their prices need to be taken into comparison to really consider quilts. To take that a step further, even if a finished quilt costs $50 less than a finished sleeping bag, there are less materials in the quilt, simply by square yardage. Less time is required to manufacture a good quilt simply because they are rectangular, their construction does not require the attachment of a three dimensional hood or the installation of a zipper and draft tube. So when it's broken down like that, I really don't think the already small price difference you mention is that significant. And you still have those Nunatak quilts to consider when comparing prices.

DirtyGaiters,

I agree some people will like quilts, some will like bags. That's fine, but I think you are slightly twisting things to make it sound like bags are better. You started with a comparison to Jack's R Better quilts - that's fine, but then when Peter Pan points out his quilts are less expensive, you bring up Nunatak.

Well, if you go by Nunatak, then their Ghost quilt, which is rated the same as the WM Summerlite bag is 5 oz lighter (using Quantum Pertex fabric, size Medium). Pricing is relatively similar (the Ghost is $7 more than the Summerlite).

One thing Pan did not mention is that the No Sniveler does have a little more loft, being overstuffed for overall 2.5 inches of loft versus the 2 inches (one side) of the Summerlite. Which should make it slightly warmer.

On a personal note, I have used the WM Ultralite, a Ray Jardine quilt, a Jacks R Better Nest Down Under (both under my hammock and on the ground as a top quilt) and a Nunatak Ghost (customized with 1 oz less down for warmer temps). I can say that the quilt is more comfortable for ME. I am primarily and side and stomach sleeper, and like to draw my knees up. With the quilt, I can configure it better to fit the way I like to sleep - I just tuck it around me.

I do toss and turn a lot at night. I just get used to rolling under the quilt instead of rolling the quilt with me. With a sleeping bag, I end up with the part I've been squishing under me (reducing the loft) on top, making for cold spots until it lofts back up. Also, if I use the bag as a quilt, I have the hood to deal with. That works okay as long as I sleep on my left side (left zip bag), because I can tuck the hood around the back of my head. But when I switch to my right side, I am breathing into the hood. If I sleep on my stomach, the hood is awkwardly placed over part of my head.

I find the quilt as comfortable on the ground as in my hammock. I've used it with a Big Agnes Insulated Air Core, a RidgeRest, and a Gossamer Gear Thin Light for ground sleeping, as well as combining some of these pads for colder temperature (20 F or so). In my hammock, using the Jack's R Better Quilt Down Under and a GG Thin Light, I was toasty sleeping under my Nunatak Quilt with a Montbell U.L. Down Inner Parka, adding a ~2 oz fleece hat later in the night. I am really excited about using this combination this year, since I am always going to be taking a jacket and hat along any way for use around camp during the evening and morning.

Anyway, that's my take on quilts. Obviously others will vary. That's why we have forums, to get different opinions.

Jim Adams
03-31-2008, 07:45
You can use your bag as a quilt just to try it. Just lay on your pad, put your feet in the foot box and pull the bag up over you as a quilt. If you like it, then buy a quilt.
I use a very light 0* down bag from October to May, winter camp alot, been down to 3* this year so far....couldn't tell you the last time that I zipped it up. You NEED a good pad under you though for insulation.

geek

CrumbSnatcher
03-31-2008, 09:42
You can use your bag as a quilt just to try it. Just lay on your pad, put your feet in the foot box and pull the bag up over you as a quilt. If you like it, then buy a quilt.
I use a very light 0* down bag from October to May, winter camp alot, been down to 3* this year so far....couldn't tell you the last time that I zipped it up. You NEED a good pad under you though for insulation.

geekbetween the hiking and beer drinking,how do you find time to sleep

Jim Adams
03-31-2008, 09:44
between the hiking and beer drinking,how do you find time to sleep

beer IV while I sleep!:D

geek

JAK
03-31-2008, 09:51
One room of thumb I use is that I like the shell material to be no more than 50%. A sleeping bag has the equivalent of 4-5 shell layers, quilts have 2-3 shell layers, and simple wool or fleece blankets have none, but greatly benefit from 1. Sleeping bags are good down to about 2 pounds total, and below that the shell weight becomes an issue. From 2 pounds down to 1 pound is the range where I think a quilt really shines, although there are competive hybrids above 2 pounds. Below a pound a wool or fleece blanket with a single semi-breathable nylon shell might not be optimal but it might hold its own. Of course there are many factors, such as clothing and shelter and ground pads, and this is only meant to be rough guideline on when these different systems are competitive in terms of weight, not temperature. Roughly speaking though, I would say sleeping bags near and below 35F, quilts from 35F to 50F, and blankets with single shell above 50F.

astrogirl
03-31-2008, 11:49
I like my homemade down quilt, because it allows me to sleep on my stomach. Can't do that with a regular bag. As a bonus, I save some weight.

Also works great for those few times I use my hammock.

If you have no problems sleeping on your back, a regular bag works out fine. And probably cheaper. I can sleep on my back but it takes 3-4 nights out before I can do it without issue (too tired to care). Most of my trips are only 2-5 nights which means I'd like to sleep well from the get go, which for me means stomach sleeping. Only issue I have with stomach sleeping is I need a longer pad (I use a prolite 3 s) since my thighs and knees need some protection. If I can commit to back sleeping I could get by with a shorter pad (torso only).

This is exactly why I switched to a quilt long before I got a hammock.

JAK
03-31-2008, 12:10
I don't understand why you can't sleep on your stomach with a sleeping bag.

tlbj6142
03-31-2008, 13:33
I don't understand why you can't sleep on your stomach with a sleeping bag.Your face is inside the hood. Kind of hard to breathe through it.:D Guess you could tuck it under your head, but doing that you might as well not have a hood. Plus a normal bag is designed to prevent drafts with a combination of the hood and an internal collar. If you don't use the hood, the drafts become an issue. Which means you need to supply your own hood/hat like you do with a quilt. So, why have a hood if you can't use?

le loupe
03-31-2008, 13:45
your face is in the hood if you roll over within the bag.

why not roll over onto you side or belly so that the bag moves with you. Then some part of the hood would be available to rest your face on and still leave you with plenty of unobstructed breathing

tlbj6142
03-31-2008, 15:21
why not roll over onto you side or belly so that the bag moves with you. You still have the draft issue. Sleeping bags reduce/eliminate the lost of heat due to convection currents by expecting you to cinch down the hood such that your face (or just your nose) is showing combined with 1 or more "draft collars". You can't use the bag like that if you are laying on our stomach. Now, if it is warm enough such that you don't need to be too concerned about drafts, then you are correct, you could just let the hood flop over the back of your head.

With a quilt (that can snap together behind my neck) combined with a high-loft balaclava, I have a fully articulated hood that blocks drafts regardless of my position.

Dirtygaiters
03-31-2008, 17:53
You still have the draft issue. Sleeping bags reduce/eliminate the lost of heat due to convection currents by expecting you to cinch down the hood such that your face (or just your nose) is showing combined with 1 or more "draft collars". You can't use the bag like that if you are laying on our stomach. Now, if it is warm enough such that you don't need to be too concerned about drafts, then you are correct, you could just let the hood flop over the back of your head.

With a quilt (that can snap together behind my neck) combined with a high-loft balaclava, I have a fully articulated hood that blocks drafts regardless of my position.


There's insulation on all sides of a bag for a reason. You can roll onto your side and then roll the bag around with you so the bag's face-hole is facing the proper direction. It's not that hard. No need to breath into the hood.

Dirtygaiters
03-31-2008, 18:10
DirtyGaiters,

I agree some people will like quilts, some will like bags. That's fine, but I think you are slightly twisting things to make it sound like bags are better. You started with a comparison to Jack's R Better quilts - that's fine, but then when Peter Pan points out his quilts are less expensive, you bring up Nunatak.

Well, if you go by Nunatak, then their Ghost quilt, which is rated the same as the WM Summerlite bag is 5 oz lighter (using Quantum Pertex fabric, size Medium). Pricing is relatively similar (the Ghost is $7 more than the Summerlite).

One thing Pan did not mention is that the No Sniveler does have a little more loft, being overstuffed for overall 2.5 inches of loft versus the 2 inches (one side) of the Summerlite. Which should make it slightly warmer.

On a personal note, I have used the WM Ultralite, a Ray Jardine quilt, a Jacks R Better Nest Down Under (both under my hammock and on the ground as a top quilt) and a Nunatak Ghost (customized with 1 oz less down for warmer temps). I can say that the quilt is more comfortable for ME. I am primarily and side and stomach sleeper, and like to draw my knees up. With the quilt, I can configure it better to fit the way I like to sleep - I just tuck it around me.

I do toss and turn a lot at night. I just get used to rolling under the quilt instead of rolling the quilt with me. With a sleeping bag, I end up with the part I've been squishing under me (reducing the loft) on top, making for cold spots until it lofts back up. Also, if I use the bag as a quilt, I have the hood to deal with. That works okay as long as I sleep on my left side (left zip bag), because I can tuck the hood around the back of my head. But when I switch to my right side, I am breathing into the hood. If I sleep on my stomach, the hood is awkwardly placed over part of my head.

I find the quilt as comfortable on the ground as in my hammock. I've used it with a Big Agnes Insulated Air Core, a RidgeRest, and a Gossamer Gear Thin Light for ground sleeping, as well as combining some of these pads for colder temperature (20 F or so). In my hammock, using the Jack's R Better Quilt Down Under and a GG Thin Light, I was toasty sleeping under my Nunatak Quilt with a Montbell U.L. Down Inner Parka, adding a ~2 oz fleece hat later in the night. I am really excited about using this combination this year, since I am always going to be taking a jacket and hat along any way for use around camp during the evening and morning.

Anyway, that's my take on quilts. Obviously others will vary. That's why we have forums, to get different opinions.


I mentioned Nunatak in my first post so I don't think it was a non sequiter at all. 2.5" of loft is more than the 2" of loft in the Summerlite, but there's more to temperature rating than inches of loft. Volume of internal dead air space, resistance to drafts, and amount of body coverage also come into play. Generally, inches of loft count for a little less in a quilt than in a bag simply because of the quilt's tendency to lose warmth through accidental drafts and the fact that they don't cover your head. Nobody is saying that a quilt can't be enjoyed or preferred by people, and I'm not going to argue with your preference for them. Although like my previous post, I'd like to re-iterate my confusion by people who say that a sleeping bag forces you to sleep on your back if you don't want to breathe into the hood's insulation. It's not that hard to twist the bag around so the face-hole is oriented in the right direction, and in fact that's the reason a bag has insulation on all sides.

The main selling point I've heard of quilts is that you're going to be wearing all your clothing while you're sleeping anyway so it's possible to boost the temperature rating of a quilt and so forth. But there are other things you need with a quilt, such as a hood or insulated balaclava, or high-loft insulated pants, which wouldn't be required with a comparably rated bag, and that simply add weight to a quilt/clothing set-up, no matter which way you slice it.

tlbj6142
03-31-2008, 18:13
There's insulation on all sides of a bag for a reason. You can roll onto your side and then roll the bag around with you so the bag's face-hole is facing the proper direction. It's not that hard. No need to breath into the hood.It works on your side, but not on your stomach since your shoulders are perpendicular to your face. On your back and/or side your face is line with your shoulders.

I have a regular bag. I'm not anti-bag and pro-quilt. For me quilt works better and offers way more flexibility than a bag for all but winter conditions. I'm just pointing out scenarios in which a normal sleeping bag's configuration does NOT work. Or at least does not work well.

Mags
03-31-2008, 18:42
Man...you guys are passionate about fart sacks. :)

Quilts work for some and not others. Sleeping bags are ideal for some, and not others.


Cripe! :)

Skidsteer
03-31-2008, 18:50
Man...you guys are passionate about fart sacks. :)

Quilts work for some and not others. Sleeping bags are ideal for some, and not others.


Cripe! :)

Sheesh, I have both. I've managed not to die in either a quilt or a bag.

These days I love to sleep with my quilt.

But I'm notoriously fickle. :D

tlbj6142
03-31-2008, 19:33
The main selling point I've heard of quilts is that you're going to be wearing all your clothing while you're sleeping anyway so it's possible to boost the temperature rating of a quilt and so forth.You can (and should) do the same with a bag. A quilt system is typically lighter than the same bag system. Bags have zippers, bottom insulation, hoods, draft tubes, etc. Quilt systems make use of other items you are already carrying to accomplish the same thing. Thereby reducing their effective weight by more than just the minor savings over the bag.
But there are other things you need with a quilt, such as a hood or insulated balaclava, or high-loft insulated pants,You should be carrying long johns, an insulated top and a warm hat regardless of which system you use.
which wouldn't be required with a comparably rated bag...but are carrying anyway. Therein lies the majority of the weight savings.

astrogirl
03-31-2008, 20:44
For me, the problem is the mummy bag. I can sleep in a rectangular bag on my stomach, but not a mummy. I simply cannot get my legs where I need them to be in a mummy, and I can with the quilt. WFM, YMMV, etc.

Skidsteer
03-31-2008, 20:53
The JRB Katahdin Quilt I have has full omni tape closure and drawstrings on both ends.

IOW, you can make a footbox and seal it up like a sleeping bag if you want to. So far I've been happy just to use it as a quilt. It worked fine on Springer for New Year's Eve.

Toasty. Except for a few minutes around 4 AM when the wind uprooted half my tarp.

Dirtygaiters
03-31-2008, 22:15
A quilt system is typically lighter than the same bag system.

Prove it.

High Altitude
03-31-2008, 23:06
You can (and should) do the same with a bag. A quilt system is typically lighter than the same bag system. Bags have zippers, bottom insulation, hoods, draft tubes, etc. Quilt systems make use of other items you are already carrying to accomplish the same thing. Thereby reducing their effective weight by more than just the minor savings over the bag.You should be carrying long johns, an insulated top and a warm hat regardless of which system you use....but are carrying anyway. Therein lies the majority of the weight savings.

Exactly!

Complete multi use clothing/sleeping system.

River Runner
03-31-2008, 23:11
I mentioned Nunatak in my first post so I don't think it was a non sequiter at all. 2.5" of loft is more than the 2" of loft in the Summerlite, but there's more to temperature rating than inches of loft. Volume of internal dead air space, resistance to drafts, and amount of body coverage also come into play. Generally, inches of loft count for a little less in a quilt than in a bag simply because of the quilt's tendency to lose warmth through accidental drafts and the fact that they don't cover your head. Nobody is saying that a quilt can't be enjoyed or preferred by people, and I'm not going to argue with your preference for them. Although like my previous post, I'd like to re-iterate my confusion by people who say that a sleeping bag forces you to sleep on your back if you don't want to breathe into the hood's insulation. It's not that hard to twist the bag around so the face-hole is oriented in the right direction, and in fact that's the reason a bag has insulation on all sides.

The main selling point I've heard of quilts is that you're going to be wearing all your clothing while you're sleeping anyway so it's possible to boost the temperature rating of a quilt and so forth. But there are other things you need with a quilt, such as a hood or insulated balaclava, or high-loft insulated pants, which wouldn't be required with a comparably rated bag, and that simply add weight to a quilt/clothing set-up, no matter which way you slice it.

When you compare the No Sniveler for weight and the Nunatak for cost, that doesn't seem quite the fair comparison. Compare bags and quilts of similar price. I just pointed out the Nunatak Ghost is 5 oz lighter to the comparable price Summerlite.

I think you may have missed my point that when i use a sleeping bag AS A QUILT, I breathe into the hood when I turn on my right side, due to the hood being on that side of the quilt, not fastened around my head. I could not use the sleeping bag unzipped as a quilt and still have the hood fastened up around my head.

While you do need some sort of head covering (hat or insulated balaclava depending on the temps), you don't need insulated pants with a quilt any more than you do with a bag of similar temperature rating. Your legs are not exposed.

A primary benefit (weight savings) is that you can use clothing that you would be carrying with you anyway for use around camp (jacket, hat, long johns, etc.) as part of your sleeping system and take a quilt that is lighter than what you typically would if you are not sleeping in your clothing. This can also work with a bag, if there is adequate space not to compromise any loft in a jacket or insulated pants if you use those. However, as pointed out in the Ghost/Summerlite example, you are saving 5 oz on the quilt. Perhaps 2 oz of that might be eaten away by carrying warmer head gear than you would with a bag - perhaps not, depending upon what type of head gear you normally take for 32 degree weather to wear in camp or while hiking in breezy conditions.

tlbj6142
03-31-2008, 23:56
Prove it.My homemade down quilt weighs 18oz with 2.5" loft. I'd say it is good 'till 25F as part of a system. All you need for 3-season backpacking. The comparable western mountaineering bag would be the AlpinLite at 31oz or the MegaLite at 24oz.

I need to wear my Balaclava at those temps, so add in another 2.4 oz for my Cocoon Pro 90. But you have to give me a credit of at least ~1oz because you have a fleece hat in your pack.

So, 18 + 2.4 - 1 == 19.4 oz vs. 24 or 31 oz. Plus the quilt is far more flexible. And in my case, cost quite a bit less.

Everything else is the same for both systems....

Prolite 3 S
Long Johns
Sleeping socks
Insulating top
Gloves

Swiss Roll
04-01-2008, 12:57
Well, this has been a fascinating thread. Thanks to everyone who has thrown in their .02. From the day I posted the original question, I have changed my mind no less than half a dozen times. Each side's arguments have been well-reasoned and forcefully argued. The two items that I have been considering stack up as follows:

Montbell SS 30 degree bag
$270
23 oz

JacksRBetter Hudson River
$199.99, on sale!
19 oz

I am leaning heavily toward the quilt now. The $70 price difference and 4 oz weight difference are two factors. I also like the thought of using a hat or balaclava (an item that I would be carrying anyway) as a hood that moves with you. I am a little concerned about the draft issue, but I am primarily a late spring/early fall hiker anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem. And I can always take my 15degree bag if the forecast is iffy. Thanks again, everyone for helping me think through this.

tlbj6142
04-01-2008, 13:04
I am a little concerned about the draft issue, but I am primarily a late spring/early fall hiker anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem.What sort of shelter are you going to use?

Swiss Roll
04-01-2008, 13:15
What sort of shelter are you going to use?


Tent. Right now all I have is a Hubba Hubba, but I hope to lose a Hubba by September.

tlbj6142
04-03-2008, 11:25
The new GoLite Ultra 20 (http://www.golite.com/Product/proddetail.aspx?p=SS7500&s=1) (quilt) just received a great review on backpackinglight.com. It is $225 MSRP @ 20oz.

take-a-knee
04-03-2008, 12:42
The new GoLite Ultra 20 (http://www.golite.com/Product/proddetail.aspx?p=SS7500&s=1) (quilt) just received a great review on backpackinglight.com. It is $225 MSRP @ 20oz.

I made something quite like that from a Golite zipperless sleeping bag (size small) by just opening a seam and leaving a foot box. It fits my daughter perfectly. I think I paid $40 for it at Sierra Trading and my wife did the sewing in an hour or so.