View Full Version : Using GPS instead of Maps...Save hassle?? or not worth risk?
:eek: yeah, no map, i said it. thoughts?
Tennessee Viking
04-02-2008, 23:49
What happens when the GPS batteries run out
...Can't get a signal
...drop it and it breaks
take-a-knee
04-02-2008, 23:59
A handheld GPS's best use is to ascertain your location on a paper map.
fiddlehead
04-02-2008, 23:59
Go for it. I would. There are some new batteries out now called eneloop. I bought a few and they are pretty amazing. although i think lithiums may be better.
The GPS will tell you how much battery power you have left so you can just get new batteries in the next town. (just keep an eye on it) Don't let the naysayers scare you about battery failure.
What you are thinking IS the way of the future.
What happens when the GPS batteries run out
...Can't get a signal
...drop it and it breaks
My guess, you look on trees and follow the white marks. :-?
Seriously you take a map and keep it in your pack for backup.
But I’m sure a lot have hiked the trail without a map and had no real problem.
My GPS says it runs 22-hrs on a set of batteries. I have gotten 18-hrs out of it on with a little showing on the power meter. I tend to swap batteries before I really have to keep a safety margin. Battery life is very good on most small electronics these days.
And it’s not like you are going to run the GPS all the time, with intermittent use I can easily get a week out of a set of alkaline batts.
deeddawg
04-03-2008, 08:57
I think you're putting the cart in front of the horse.
First question is what are you trying to accomplish? Once you answer that question it's a lot easier to decide what technology to use to fulfill that goal.
Like Bob S says, follow the path with the white stripes on the trees.
I like GPS's, don't misunderstand. I'm sure they'd be particularly valuable when going off-trail such as bushwhacking or hunting. In the context of the AT (or other well marked trails), I don't see where they provide any substantial benefit over map & compass (and knowing how to use them).
i love maps... always have one with me. But I love taking along my GPS if just for the novelty. I like knowing how far I walked, how long I walked and being able to retrace my steps if I did a little exploring.
minnesotasmith
04-03-2008, 09:57
That'd be choosing the heavier, bulkier, more breakable, needs-consumables-to-work, less useful navigation tool. Not too clever IMO.
max patch
04-03-2008, 09:59
The battery in my map has never run out of juice. :)
What happens when the GPS batteries run out
...Can't get a signal
...drop it and it breaks
You die. Instantly, horribly, inexorably.
You do get a 25 second window to replace the batteries if they expire. After that, you die.
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What waypoint data were you thinking of using?
take-a-knee
04-03-2008, 12:38
You die. Instantly, horribly, inexorably.
You do get a 25 second window to replace the batteries if they expire. After that, you die.
------------------------------------------------
What waypoint data were you thinking of using?
Not really, you'll still be quite enough alive to realize how bone-headed you were in your selection of gear.
tlbj6142
04-03-2008, 13:05
:eek: yeah, no map, i said it. thoughts?I really think this depends on where you are hiking. On the AT it would be a non-issue. Since many don't take maps or a compass and do fine. In that case the GPS would become a heavy expensive watch.
lol @ heavy - you think a GPS unit is heavy you are far too elite
I really think this depends on where you are hiking. On the AT it would be a non-issue. Since many don't take maps or a compass and do fine. In that case the GPS would become a heavy expensive watch.
More like everyone who doesn't carry maps does fine. Maps = 100% unnecessary, GPS = 200% unnecessary.
Furlough
04-03-2008, 13:58
No real issue with GPS units, but I always carry maps. More so for the information about the surrounding area (side trails, springs/streams, facilities, roads etc.) they contain then for following the AT north or south via the white blaze dead reckoning method of orienteering.
Furlough
I like maps just to look at them if nothing else. Carrying 2000 miles worth would be a drag though, and I wouldn't want the hassle of mail drops either.
Too bad you can't buy section maps along the way?
minnesotasmith
04-03-2008, 14:20
I like maps just to look at them if nothing else. Carrying 2000 miles worth would be a drag though, and I wouldn't want the hassle of mail drops either.
Too bad you can't buy section maps along the way?
North of VA, especially NJ/NY, the outfitters tend to be out of the local ATC maps.
tlbj6142
04-03-2008, 14:20
lol @ heavy - you think a GPS unit is heavy you are far too eliteThe mapping units weigh at least 5-7 oz. That is heavy. When 2-3 maps and a compass only weigh a couple of ounces.
I use maps for daily trail navigation, only if needed. I use gps for the 'fun' stuff on the trail. Marking waypoints for places (water sources, water falls, parking lots, trail heads, trail junctions...) and of course geocaching! I just put together a route for my BMT section hike later this month and theres 2 dozen caches on the way!
the goat
04-03-2008, 15:08
That'd be choosing the heavier, bulkier, more breakable, needs-consumables-to-work, less useful navigation tool. Not too clever IMO.
lol! from the man who carried two pairs of gaiters, 6 rolls of t.p., and three gallons of water!
Not really, you'll still be quite enough alive to realize how bone-headed you were in your selection of gear.
No, you die. Seen it happen.
On the other hand, if you carry a spare set of lithium batteries and purchased a recent model which does well under tree cover and is water proof you may have made a good selection. About the same as carrying a pile of maps weight-wise (~8-14 ozs).
As long as you get the batteries in fast. Otherwise, death.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recent reliable waypoint data may be an issue. The ATC files are from '02. For that matter, so are probably some of the map sets. Best of both worlds-- get the mapsets, compare the data, include spring info where needed. The shelters are already available as a data set at the ATC website.
People have relied on GPS for more remote areas than the AT.
minnesotasmith
04-03-2008, 15:24
"...and three gallons of water!
Your source?
The mapping units weigh at least 5-7 oz. That is heavy. When 2-3 maps and a compass only weigh a couple of ounces.
I don’t think it’s about the weight. Some people don’t like new technology that much, these people will not embrace GPS saying it’s unreliable.
The fact that almost every Military in the world uses GPS says it can handle rough use.
I happen to like maps so I always take one with me. But I also am not afraid to use new technology once it’s proven reliable to me. GPS is a proven thing.
And I like all it does that a map can’t do. I have a GPS unit that has worked well for over 4-years with not one problem in all that time.
Yes GPS is somewhat heaver if you factor in the batteries, but then you should factor in what 2200 miles of detailed maps would weigh to be fair about it.
My GPS is waterproof, are the maps? Probably not, unless you have a waterproof case, don’t forget to weigh the waterproof case and add it to the weight of the maps.
It’s more about what a person likes then it is about reliable.
Hikes in Rain
04-03-2008, 17:19
You're correct, some of us like the old school stuff. Calculating my car's mileage in rods per hogshead is good enough for me! And my maps are indeed waterproof; made out of that new-fangled stuff, um, plastic, wasn't it?
I like to use an Astrolabe myself.
I don’t think it’s about the weight. Some people don’t like new technology that much, these people will not embrace GPS saying it’s unreliable.
The fact that almost every Military in the world uses GPS says it can handle rough use.
I happen to like maps so I always take one with me. But I also am not afraid to use new technology once it’s proven reliable to me. GPS is a proven thing.
And I like all it does that a map can’t do. I have a GPS unit that has worked well for over 4-years with not one problem in all that time.
Yes GPS is somewhat heaver if you factor in the batteries, but then you should factor in what 2200 miles of detailed maps would weigh to be fair about it.
My GPS is waterproof, are the maps? Probably not, unless you have a waterproof case, don’t forget to weigh the waterproof case and add it to the weight of the maps.
It’s more about what a person likes then it is about reliable. I find it amusing when people say things like GPSs could break down or the batteries could die as reasons not to use a GPS.
I'm sure my grandfather was equally amused when their grandfathers said, "What? An auty-mobile? No, thanky, son. What if it runs out of gas, then what? ANswer me that? Give me a horse any day. They don't break down and they don't run out of gas."
Eventually, they all bought cars, and they all bought computers (What? Put information of a piece of electronics? Sure, and the hard disk fails and you've lost everything. No thank you. Pen and paper is fine for me!) and no one hikes in hob-nailed boots anymore or sleeps in woolen blankets under a canvas tent.
There will always be people who resist anything new.
The people who thought cars, computers, etc were a good idea were the people who actually used them. The naysayers generally never tried one. Once they did, they realized what they were missing. But until they bought one, they didn't believe.
Same with GPSs and those new-fangled backpacks that don't use a packboard and just sort of hang on you direct-like. They'll never catch on. A packboard can carry a lot more weight, and where you gonna hang your axe on one of them bags-with-straps?
You're correct, some of us like the old school stuff. Calculating my car's mileage in rods per hogshead is good enough for me! And my maps are indeed waterproof; made out of that new-fangled stuff, um, plastic, wasn't it?Remember, your rods per hogshead will be better if you keep your furlongs per fortnight low.
Appalachian Tater
04-03-2008, 19:09
It's a great idea if you're blind.
You're correct, some of us like the old school stuff. Calculating my car's mileage in rods per hogshead is good enough for me!
Without a doubt, hands down... this is the funniest line I've ever read on WB!!!!
I've got a couple of buggy whips if anyone is interested....
To stay on topic - I've got a GPS and actually carried it on the AT but being the gadget nut that I am it turned into a distraction and truth be told it was completely unnecessary.
I much prefer my maps. I like looking at the elevation profile every 10 minutes or so. :)
I've got a couple of buggy whips if anyone is interested....
Sorry, I'm not into that. :eek:
take-a-knee
04-04-2008, 22:41
I find it amusing when people say things like GPSs could break down or the batteries could die as reasons not to use a GPS.
I'm sure my grandfather was equally amused when their grandfathers said, "What? An auty-mobile? No, thanky, son. What if it runs out of gas, then what? ANswer me that? Give me a horse any day. They don't break down and they don't run out of gas."
Eventually, they all bought cars, and they all bought computers (What? Put information of a piece of electronics? Sure, and the hard disk fails and you've lost everything. No thank you. Pen and paper is fine for me!) and no one hikes in hob-nailed boots anymore or sleeps in woolen blankets under a canvas tent.
There will always be people who resist anything new.
The people who thought cars, computers, etc were a good idea were the people who actually used them. The naysayers generally never tried one. Once they did, they realized what they were missing. But until they bought one, they didn't believe.
Same with GPSs and those new-fangled backpacks that don't use a packboard and just sort of hang on you direct-like. They'll never catch on. A packboard can carry a lot more weight, and where you gonna hang your axe on one of them bags-with-straps?
I was using GPS's way before most of y'all 'cause taxpayers were paying for them. They never were, and never will be, a replacement for a paper map. The only thing better than a paper map is a tyvek map. Many of you like your GPS units because you've never acquired any real land navigation skills, you don't know how to terrain associate and interpret contour lines or determine a proper azimuth. I own and use a Garmin Etrex, oftentimes it is very convenient, the trac back feature is awesome. It doesn't replace the need for a map and compass, it only augments them.
TAK, sorry, but I am well versed in how to use a map/compass.. and I do orienteering on the side too. So, I think I have, as you say, 'real land navigation skills.' Yes, I use a gps too. Just because one carries it, does not mean that they are deficient in the other...
No, you're wrong. You don't know your a** from the azimuth :)
TAK, sorry, but I am well versed in how to use a map/compass.. and I do orienteering on the side too. So, I think I have, as you say, 'real land navigation skills.' Yes, I use a gps too. Just because one carries it, does not mean that they are deficient in the other...
Yeah it was a outlandish statement. How could he know how well versed anyone is in map and compass.
Back to the original question. Since the AT is so well marked it's seldom you'll ever find a real need for a map. It the rare case you do, assuming you know how to use one, a mapping GPS would work as well.
fiddlehead
04-05-2008, 12:32
I was using GPS's way before most of y'all 'cause taxpayers were paying for them. They never were, and never will be, a replacement for a paper map. The only thing better than a paper map is a tyvek map. Many of you like your GPS units because you've never acquired any real land navigation skills, you don't know how to terrain associate and interpret contour lines or determine a proper azimuth. I own and use a Garmin Etrex, oftentimes it is very convenient, the trac back feature is awesome. It doesn't replace the need for a map and compass, it only augments them.
Would've loved to see you in that whiteout we were in in the Pyrenees a few years ago. We had the map, compasses, gps out, trying to not step off the cliff nearby, when it finally cleared, we were about 8 feet from the trail.
The GPS was new to us at the time and we weren't sure we should believe it. (it did happen to be correct that particular time)
But how do you learn something like that unless you go out and use it in those conditions? (even though we had to figure in the Paris meridian)
If the centerline data is correct, the springs marked, the corridor depicted around the centerline is wide, and streets & forest roads depicted, it is a comparable tool. Pretty much-- how good is the map being loaded into the device?
It is a superior tool in representing real current location vs. mapped background (fast & accuracy w/i feet).
I don't think any of the handheld units have elevation profiles (though some of the topo programs do). Could be wrong. People seem to really like those profiles more than the maps themselves...
take-a-knee
04-05-2008, 12:36
TAK, sorry, but I am well versed in how to use a map/compass.. and I do orienteering on the side too. So, I think I have, as you say, 'real land navigation skills.' Yes, I use a gps too. Just because one carries it, does not mean that they are deficient in the other...
I'm not anti-gps, I am against the idea that it replaces a map because it doesn't. Grown men somehow think navigation is a primeval, sex-linked characteristic, it isn't. It is a skill that requires knowledge and spatial orientation, the latter comes REALLY difficult for some. I'm former special forces, you wanna know why a lot of soldiers can't say that? Because they couldn't learn land navigation. That causes the bulk of washouts, not the physical part. It isn't quite as simple as some make out. I've taught a bunch of soldiers map reading, I know of what I speak.
When they come out with a GPS that has a holographic projection screen(large enough to be or real use), meets military shock standards, recharges in 30min from weak sunlight, and weighs 3-4 oz I'll stop carrying maps.
take-a-knee
04-05-2008, 12:39
Would've loved to see you in that whiteout we were in in the Pyrenees a few years ago. We had the map, compasses, gps out, trying to not step off the cliff nearby, when it finally cleared, we were about 8 feet from the trail.
The GPS was new to us at the time and we weren't sure we should believe it. (it did happen to be correct that particular time)
But how do you learn something like that unless you go out and use it in those conditions? (even though we had to figure in the Paris meridian)
As I said I'm not anti-gps, you just pointed out one of gps's best uses, it's trac-back feature. If you have good viz as you walk a route, and need to retrace it in poor viz, just hit trac-back and head home. Smart western hunters rely on this to avoid getting "cliffed-out".
Tak-
Don't think the argument is replacing maps w/gps for all applications.
The question is, is the AT functionally navigable by gps. Without leaving one stranded or being a royal pita.
To me current data availability becomes the question- but that is a shortcoming w/ maps as well.
For as often as a map truly *needs* to be consulted while white-blazing, the 40+ hrs of battery life provided by a unit w/a set of spare lithium batteries around ~9-11 ozs is more than plenty of time. Of course, if you want to leave it on all the time, you may have issues. After I consult a map I typically pack it away, gps is no different.
My handheld has survived drops, high heat, cold, etc like a champ. Mil-spec, no idea. Sure there are units that are. A rubber case works wonders.
Practically, it removes the necessity of mail drops which can be a pita if you are mostly using them to get the next set of maps. Depending on how many drops you arrange, map sets aren't always entirely light, though you can discard as you go.
Might come in handy if you need a fast route at night, as well...
Wise Old Owl
04-05-2008, 13:06
:eek: yeah, no map, i said it. thoughts?
Oh boy I have been active for a year and do you know how many times this has been argued?
What if the batteries fail? Duh, carry a second set of Lithiums!
No, you're wrong. You don't know your a** from the azimuth - Rude & Funny at the same time.
Frosty's Got Perspective!
That Astrolab idea is very interesting - that's new. Where can I get one? Hmmm.
www.brasscompass.com (http://www.brasscompass.com) - got to get one of these honey's for the trail - make sure you scroll all the way to the bottom.
Can we vote to move all the GPS stuff to it's own Header?
NICKTHEGREEK
04-05-2008, 13:08
:eek: yeah, no map, i said it. thoughts?
A very ill advised idea for the backwoods.
For the AT a map on a matchbook cover may have all the detail you need to follow the blazes
I'm former special forces, you wanna know why a lot of soldiers can't say that? Because they couldn't learn land navigation. I've taught a bunch of soldiers map reading, I know of what I speak.
whoooooo.... And? So.
No, you're wrong. You don't know your a** from the azimuth - Rude & Funny at the same time.
Actually, mostly just funny. It was a response to T-a-k stating that no one on the thread had any any orienteering ability, which was wrong and possibly a little rude, though he does seem to be talking from a place of experience which I appreciate.
A forum for gps- it would quickly go to the dogs, & there is already a very friendly, useful forum for that here ;)
What about printing out topomaps off the internet as you go?
What about printing out topomaps off the internet as you go?
If you can find them w/all the info you may think you need (current centerline, shelters, water sources, elevation profiles of centerline, etc.), that's a possibility. I don't think the ATC has the official maps online at this time. Mail-drop would be just as convenient.
Would be on non-waterproof paper.
Wise Old Owl
04-05-2008, 14:55
What about printing out topomaps off the internet as you go?
I looked at that from multiple sites - the outcome is just poor, lacks the detail. Yea Topozone.... I don't know, if you are happy with that go ahead. There is just no comparison to the quality of the AT maps that are worth the $$$.
Nomad94, don't worry - I liked it!
Wise Old Owl
04-05-2008, 15:01
I like to use an Astrolabe myself.
Back to the Funnies.... So how does this work, I sit in the middle of the trail and I wait for continued darkness, occational clear nightime sky, I place this heavy brass counter weight in front of me. I spin the inner dial - How come it can't point to the damn white blaze on the nearby tree?
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/astrolabe1.jpghttp://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/confused-owl-1.jpg
take-a-knee
04-05-2008, 15:25
whoooooo.... And? So.
Ipso facto it means that I know, understand, and can perform land navigation very well, thank you. The STAR exam at Camp McKall NC is the most difficult land navigation test in the world. The US Army's training command has leaned hard on SF because of that tests' high failure rate, the sent a "renowned orienteerer" to Camp McKall to evaluate the STAR in the 90's. He showed up in shorts and a day pack for the beginning of the day portion. He came in ripped apart by wait-a-minute vines, two hours late and one point short of standard. The "orienteer" walked over to some SF students getting ready to to go out for the night land nav portion (they were rested because they'd found their points and returned on time) and asked them how much weight they were carrrying. They said 65# with ruck, web kit and rifle. He shook his head and replied, "You guys are some tough sonuvabitches" . The "orienteerer" didn't go back out for the night test.
The SAS's Brecon Brecons exam is more difficult physically but not in terms of navigation.
I think you're putting the cart in front of the horse.
First question is what are you trying to accomplish? Once you answer that question it's a lot easier to decide what technology to use to fulfill that goal.
Like Bob S says, follow the path with the white stripes on the trees.
I like GPS's, don't misunderstand. I'm sure they'd be particularly valuable when going off-trail such as bushwhacking or hunting. In the context of the AT (or other well marked trails), I don't see where they provide any substantial benefit over map & compass (and knowing how to use them).
Without a map, I can't think of any real benefit a GPS provides, except if you turn it on before wandering off the trail, you can follow your tracks back.
A map tells you many things about the land surrounding the trail, including the names of mountains, shortcuts, and most importantly where intersecting roads lead to. A GPS tells you nothing other than the coordinants of where you are on the face of the earth, which are meaningless without a map.
A GPS offers a tiny section of a map, but not enough to do anything useful.
Weary
A GPS offers a tiny section of a map, but not enough to do anything useful.
Weary
Yes they do. I used one several times to get me back on the CDT after the trail petered out. They also have water sources, roads etc. where you can use the goto feature if need be.
HIs approach may be brusque, but I have to side with Take-a-Knee on much of this thread.
My experience (and I've taught a LOT of people to navigate, both as a Marine and as a NOLS instructor) is that most folks who tout GPS heavily tend to have difficulty reading contours and using a compass.
I've used GPS professionally, as an artilleryman and forward observer/air controller, surveyor, and when teaching students. They have their uses and can be very convenient. But the professional grade models tend to weigh pounds, not ounces, and I didn't enjoy packing them.
As for convenience, I find looking at a full-size map MUCH more convenient than staring at that little screen. I enjoy having a large area available to consider routes instead of the straight-line-up-and-down-through-every-gorge-and-stream track so common when geocaching.
I consider a GPS a reasonable backup to map (and sometimes compass) navigation. But it tends to be pretty frustrating as a primary means of navigation.
HIs approach may be brusque, but I have to side with Take-a-Knee on much of this thread.
My experience (and I've taught a LOT of people to navigate, both as a Marine and as a NOLS instructor) is that most folks who tout GPS heavily tend to have difficulty reading contours and using a compass.
I've used GPS professionally, as an artilleryman and forward observer/air controller, surveyor, and when teaching students. They have their uses and can be very convenient. But the professional grade models tend to weigh pounds, not ounces, and I didn't enjoy packing them.
As for convenience, I find looking at a full-size map MUCH more convenient than staring at that little screen. I enjoy having a large area available to consider routes instead of the straight-line-up-and-down-through-every-gorge-and-stream track so common when geocaching.
I consider a GPS a reasonable backup to map (and sometimes compass) navigation. But it tends to be pretty frustrating as a primary means of navigation.
I was an FO before gps, when we were on the hill with surveyors we'd ask for 10and 12 didgit coordinates to targets, and store it in our notebooks. They may have had gps, I don't know.
We did have rangefinders. Mostly used direction and terrain association.
I bought a gps just a couple years after they came out, It was fun to play with, ate the hec out of batts...Map and compass for me K.I.S.S.
How much weight/volume for the full set of maps for the AT?
Is the other side blank for keeping a journal or whatever?
That might make it worthwhile avoiding mail drops etc.
Yes, if one were to pull out the etrex from 6-7 yrs ago it would be a poor choice.
Newer models have far greater memory capabilities than those of a few years ago (gigs vs. megs). Meaning, you can see a much larger corridor than previously-rivaling and surpassing an at map. As memory capability increases, the ability to have the entire seaboard stored in a standard scale will be reached-- not today, but not too far off.
The maps imported can be topographic-- if people need to learn how to read a contour that is not the fault of gps. (Damn calculators, my kids don't know their multiplication tables...)
Screens are larger, though still much smaller than looking at a 'whole' map. Better than looking at a matchbook.
Some now have the ability to view different file formats (insert trail guide of choice here).
The quality of data available for use is the question. For example, Delorme's topos are solid (imo), the atc has centerline data available (a data point for every couple feet), & shelter data. How truly current is the data from '02 vs. real world, ?
Boils down to comfort level *with the tools available now*.
A useful discussion would be talking about the actual driving capabilities of the emerging ferraris available today vs the edsels of yesterday...
How much weight/volume for the full set of maps for the AT?
Is the other side blank for keeping a journal or whatever?
That might make it worthwhile avoiding mail drops etc.
About 2 pounds. Info on both sides. Poor paper for journaling.
Yes, if one were to pull out the etrex from 6-7 yrs ago it would be a poor choice.
Newer models have far greater memory capabilities than those of a few years ago (gigs vs. megs). Meaning, you can see a much larger corridor than previously-rivaling and surpassing an at map. As memory capability increases, the ability to have the entire seaboard stored in a standard scale will be reached-- not today, but not too far off.
The maps imported can be topographic-- if people need to learn how to read a contour that is not the fault of gps. (Damn calculators, my kids don't know their multiplication tables...)
Screens are larger, though still much smaller than looking at a 'whole' map. Better than looking at a matchbook.
Some now have the ability to view different file formats (insert trail guide of choice here).
The quality of data available for use is the question. For example, Delorme's topos are solid (imo), the atc has centerline data available (a data point for every couple feet), & shelter data. How truly current is the data from '02 vs. real world, ?
Boils down to comfort level *with the tools available now*.
A useful discussion would be talking about the actual driving capabilities of the emerging ferraris available today vs the edsels of yesterday...
And possibly less expensive? Would'nt mind tryin another one.
fiddlehead
04-05-2008, 21:34
As for convenience, I find looking at a full-size map MUCH more convenient than staring at that little screen. I enjoy having a large area available to consider routes instead of the straight-line-up-and-down-through-every-gorge-and-stream track so common when geocaching.
Really? You carry full size 7 1/2 minute quads for the WHOLE trail? Wow, that can get expensive aye?
I remember when a guy from Chicago (forget his name) put the whole set on display at an ALDHA gathering about 10 or 15 years ago. THey took up most of the gym floor but it was pretty cool seeing the trail as he color coded the different elevations. IT almost looked 3-D
I wouldn't want to have to figure out which ones go where. There must've been 1,000 of them.
I've heard the new GPS's will hold that many 7 1/2 min. scale in without downloading new data for the whole trail. I have a Garmin Legend and it won't hold that much.
Wise Old Owl
04-05-2008, 22:57
Hey T.A.K. - can you tone it down a little? We agree with you, It's important to know how to read a topo map, It might be wise to adopt GPS too. But stop hitting us over the head with "Gee I accomplished this or I passed that" - I just don't care. If you want to be helpful lets figure out a way for you to pass on some of the good old boy knowledge of map reading to those who don't have it.
And By the way, the Military uses billions of dollars dropping smart weapons on targets with GPS and they aren't worried one bit if the system isn't 100 percent. I don't see any smart weapons reading a Tyvek map on the way down to Bagdad.
I have read many books and studied Topo & Orienteering, I don't pretend to know everything, I probably would like to pick your brain on a few important orienteering questions, stuff that would help everybody, but you have to get off that soap box and drop the old fashioned Megaphone. How about we try a new thread that doesn't start with GPS and get some detailed discussions on orienteering? Maybe we can all get along then?
Mark
This thing works pretty well for navigation:
http://celestaire.com/catalog/Marine_Sextants/Astra_IIIB/
Of course it weighs 2 lb. 10 oz., needs a really accurate timepiece (like a GPS, as a matter of fact) and probably three to six pounds of reference books. Oh, yeah, and the killer is that you need a more or less accurate horizon, and a good knowledge of your local elevation above sea level.
You also need lots of paper, a map to plot things on, clear weather and.... you know, now that I think about it, maybe this isn't such a good idea after all.
But heck, a good position with it is accurate to maybe a mile or so. With accuracy like that, what else would you want?
Really? You carry full size 7 1/2 minute quads for the WHOLE trail?
I carried the appropriate ATC section map during my thru-hike. Dramatically lighter and more convenient than carrying a GPS, then or today. The whole set cost less than a color screen GPS, before you buy the map software.
As for arguments about carrying the whole map set on a GPS, do we need to revisit the many threads about Coup's ill-fated attempt to hike the AT without resupply? If folks want to carry a GPS, more power to them, but IME, a GPS is NOT a substitute for a real map and the skill to use it (while admitting that the AT doesn't require a great deal of map skills.....)
fiddlehead
04-05-2008, 23:57
Oh i thought you carried the full size maps. "I find looking at a full-size map MUCH more convenient than staring at that little screen. I enjoy having a large area available to consider routes instead of the straight-line-up-and-down-through-every-gorge-and-stream track so common when geocaching."
I for one, don't like those little strip maps. I've already carried state hi-way maps, (AT) and pages torn from DeLorme Gazeteers. (PCT)
If you blue blaze, or take the old trail into town (like up near Gorham, or Monson) those strip maps aren't much good. If you stay on the trail, I guess the strip maps are good, aye?
I spent a lot of money buying the maps for trails out west and you are right, there's no way i would carry them all at once. I think they weigh about 6 or 7 lbs for the CDT. (and were expensive) I used them in conjunction with my GPS. Learned a lot doing that. Like how to pinpoint yourself on the map while in a total whiteout/snowstorm.
Nothing wrong with learning all you can about navigation. Sometimes one way works, sometimes another.
I for one, don't like those little strip maps. I've already carried state hi-way maps, (AT) and pages torn from DeLorme Gazeteers. (PCT)
If you blue blaze, or take the old trail into town (like up near Gorham, or Monson) those strip maps aren't much good. If you stay on the trail, I guess the strip maps are good, aye?
Some of the AT maps are fairly thin strip maps. I seem to recall this was often the case in New England. In the Southeast, the map usually cover a fairly sizable area.
Out west, I've used 1:24,000 scale maps extensively, particularly in the Wind River Range, Absarokas, Bighorns, and Lemhis. They add up, true, but it is difficult to get lost with them.
I am generally quite comfortable with 1:50,00 scale maps, since this is what I worked with in the military. Few readily available commercial maps are less detailed than this, though I've seen a few that jump as high as 1:62k or so.
When I say I like a full map, I mean one I can open up to its full size and see a broad area. This simply isn't possible with a GPS, where you have to fumble with the controls and try to find a water source or stream crossing or emergency road access while watching less than a square mile of a map on the screen. To me, this is much less convenient than opening up a map.
On the handful of occasions when I've become "powerfully confused" and had a GPS available, its ability to acquire a decent fix and help me reacquire my location on a map was decent, about 2/3's of the time. The others, I was in a valley and couldn't get a signal, or I was so far north (northern Norway) that I simply couldn't get 4 birds any where unless I climbed to the top of a mountain.
Of course the other question is how many GPS users know how to read Lat/Longs (or the more convenient UTM grid) to convert their location to a point on a map.... I guess it's not quite so bad nowadays when the GPS actually has at least a small map on its face.
Now when GPS can project a 2 foot x 2 foot hologram into the air (and this may well happen just as it currently does in the cockpit of many combat aircraft), GPS will be much more convenient as a possible primary nav source to me.
Undershaft
04-07-2008, 11:19
I like to use an Astrolabe myself.
Fancy Newfangled Overpriced Fad Gadget! I carry a Cross Staff. Longitude is for sissies!:D
Back to the Funnies.... So how does this work,
No. You conk someone over the head with this heavy equipment, take their car keys and head out for some pizza.
Of course the other question is how many GPS users know how to read Lat/Longs (or the more convenient UTM grid) to convert their location to a point on a map.... I
IMO, that is the best part of a GPS. Using UTM coords to plug into a GPS and make your own way points. Or pull out a map, figure out the UTM coords, plug it into a GPS and get a general fix of where Lost Lake is located. It also helps solve the "WT Bleep am I" factor quickly (again, if you can read UTM coords)
The GPS is simply tool. Not a magic device. Sometimes a map and compass is easier (I like the broad view myself). Sometimes a GPS is easier.
Both have their places. Just my .05 worth.
I love taking my GPS. But it would never be in place of a map. I like the odometer and being able to retrace my steps because I love exploring and almost never just stick to just the trail. I also like easily finding cool spots again on future hikes. That being said, I wouldn't have one if I didn't get it at an REI garage sale for $20.
I use a map, and if I do everyone should, why? Because I said so!!!
If we all thought like you that are in essence saying this we would all be cooking over a fire using a clay pots and sticks we made to cook food we killed with a stone or spear. And going to bed in our cave….
But we don’t live in caves and hunt with spears. People work to better themselves and make tools to make life better, more enjoyable and to make tasks easier to do and also allow them to do more. GPS does this.
Of course the other question is how many GPS users know how to read Lat/Longs (or the more convenient UTM grid) to convert their location to a point on a map....
You need a Waypointer (http://www.minerox.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1811). Fiddlehead taught me that!
For the most part, and the topic of this thread, we're talking established trails where many hike without either map or GPS. Even hiking the CDT with the maps (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/hikertrash/mt01.gif) such as Jonathan Ley's it's hard to lose the trail if you're paying attention. If you're carrying a GPS the addition of the compass rose makes it easy to pin point your location on the map.
Sleeps_With_Skunks
04-07-2008, 14:59
Map...GPS...makes no difference to me. If I'm trying to read either of them walking at the same time I either...1-trip over feet or 2-walk off something I didn't mean to (the near cliff fall experience was a little too close. I like my gps. It's nice to mark areas to come back to and fun for geocaching. I like my maps too. Sometimes the GPS will lose a signal or won't track in some overhang areas in the rocks and you need the map to figure out where you are.
I have noticed over the last several years the GPS systems have gotten small, lighter and update the grids more readily. And Bearpaw.....most basic GPS devices can be programmed to read many different types of grid points very quickly and easily and will convert them into other points you can use. Some even have a built in pedometer that you calibrate to your stride and can help keep count of your paces for you.
I have also noticed that some of the map companies aren't keeping up with the current changes in park system trails. For example....at Mammoth Caves National Park the nice waterproof map you can get is NOWHERE close to the actual trails that are open right now and the changes in the campsite locations.
SWS
I have also noticed that some of the map companies aren't keeping up with the current changes in park system trails. For example....at Mammoth Caves National Park the nice waterproof map you can get is NOWHERE close to the actual trails that are open right now and the changes in the campsite locations.SWS
What!!!
The mighty Map has flaws in it. I thought maps were the be all to end all, a gift from the GOD of outdoors.
At least that’s the message map users that don’t like GPS portray it.
What!!!
The mighty Map has flaws in it. I thought maps were the be all to end all, a gift from the GOD of outdoors.
At least that’s the message map users that don’t like GPS portray it.
So... um... how do you really feel?
Wise Old Owl
04-07-2008, 16:03
http://celestaire.com/celes2.jpgOk how do I fit this into my daypack?, Can I trade the fine wood box for a compression sack?
So... um... how do you really feel?
How do I really feel? I don’t care what any given person uses. Personally I take a map and a GPS unit. I don’t normally use the map, but its there for me if I feel the need.
I quit carrying a big compass and now have a few smaller ones, one that clips onto my shirt or coat. And one that is hooked to a pull on the pack.
I was pointing out in my post above how narrow-minded it seems some are about this issue. It seems that they hate GPS and love their map & compass and talk down to anyone they think has less skill them they do with a map.
We should all be getting out to hike and camp and encourage others to do so and not get bent out of shape if they use item different then we do.
It’s good to discuss the merits (good and bad points) of anything we use. But some map people really come across as preaching down to a person that likes GPS.
deeddawg
04-07-2008, 17:09
But some map people really come across as preaching down to a person that likes GPS
True, but that is more an artifact of personalities than the specific tools being used. You see the same in any category. Map vs. compass. Filter vs. other methods. Harley vs. non-Harley. Ford vs. Chevy. Mac vs. PC. Same thing different topic.
But some map people really come across as preaching down to a person that likes GPS
True, but that is more an artifact of personalities than the specific tools being used. You see the same in any category. Map vs. compass. Filter vs. other methods. Harley vs. non-Harley. Ford vs. Chevy. Mac vs. PC. Same thing different topic.
You are right, I got into Ham Radio in 1990 with the no-code license and it was the same thing. The old guys that learned code thought they were the only real hams and all the no-code people were not real hams. Their arrogance was very strong. Never mind that the number of amateur radio operators were on the decline for years (decades) and the hobby was dieing. And that Morse code was also dieing and even the US Coast Guard dropped it.
They never did and in a lot of ways still do not embrace the newer hams that much, and in the last year the FCC dropped even more of the code requirements and it’s going to start all over again.
I see the same thing here in this debate, the “I earned my way to the outdoors with my map skills and you didn’t” mentality. All this does is makes a person look the fool and gives off a very negative vibe.
For the most part, I don’t care how any person chooses to enjoy the outdoors as long as they get out to do it its good in my mind.
What!!!
The mighty Map has flaws in it. I thought maps were the be all to end all, a gift from the GOD of outdoors.
At least that’s the message map users that don’t like GPS portray it.
The trails have been moved. It happens.
If you can read contour lines, the map is still accurate.......... ;)
As we used to say in the Marine Corps, "the dirt don't lie", even if map datum, roads, trails, and other constructs of man sometimes will.
[quote=Sly;588348]You need a Waypointer (http://www.minerox.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1811). Fiddlehead taught me that!/quote]
It takes practice and a while to find your location, but it is definitely an accurate tool. But I still like UTM grid because I can quickly eyeball a 6-digit grid to within 100 yards or so. But on NOLS courses, when we were required to plot our location each night, the Waypointer was our tool.
Until the school started making us carry GPS.... :D
The trails have been moved. It happens.
If you can read contour lines, the map is still accurate.......... ;)
As we used to say in the Marine Corps, "the dirt don't lie", even if map datum, roads, trails, and other constructs of man sometimes will.
Good thing my gps has a map w/contour lines... :eek:
Good thing my gps has a map w/contour lines... :eek:
Good thing my map does too. Sleeps With Skunks' GPS just got her more confused ;).
Of course, I've already admitted to using GPS on a number of occasions. But for trail hiking, I still find a decent map more convenient than GPS.
I think a bit of my angst with GPS comes from geocaching with Sleeps With Skunks. The folks who call golf "a good walk spoiled" never geocached.:rolleyes:
take-a-knee
04-07-2008, 19:11
I use a map, and if I do everyone should, why? Because I said so!!!
If we all thought like you that are in essence saying this we would all be cooking over a fire using a clay pots and sticks we made to cook food we killed with a stone or spear. And going to bed in our cave.
But we don’t live in caves and hunt with spears. People work to better themselves and make tools to make life better, more enjoyable and to make tasks easier to do and also allow them to do more. GPS does this.
Really lame analogies Bob, I don't care what you carry/use, but if you want to actually learn to navigate, you'll use a map. A GPS is a most useful to TO AUGMENT A MAP that you have to ability to interpret all the symbols therein and orient to the surrounding terrain. Anyone who doesn't understand this doesn't need to offer advice to anyone on land navigation, period.
Two Speed
04-07-2008, 19:15
Really lame analogies Bob, . . . period.Soooo, t-a-k, tell us what you really feel.
Before you get your knickers in a twist I generally agree with you.
I just don't think you're going to win anyone over with that approach. Well, unless they've signed an enlistment contract and you're the assigned instructor.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and bet that ain't the case here.
take-a-knee
04-07-2008, 19:43
Soooo, t-a-k, tell us what you really feel.
Before you get your knickers in a twist I generally agree with you.
I just don't think you're going to win anyone over with that approach. Well, unless they've signed an enlistment contract and you're the assigned instructor.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and bet that ain't the case here.
Admittedly I have a "penchant" for candor but you know what? All sorts of people lurk and look at our musings, most of whom can't find there a$$ with both hands and come here for info/knowledge.
Two things usually cause people cause people to go hiking and never come home:
1) Hypothermia related to inadequate clothing selected/carried.
2) Getting lost.
Any time someone posts info I consider conducive to setting up a novice for one or both of the above, I feel I have a civic responsibility to inform them that they are FOS.
Two Speed
04-07-2008, 19:52
Admittedly I have a "penchant" for candor but you know what? All sorts of people lurk and look at our musings, most of whom can't find there a$$ with both hands and come here for info/knowledge.Yeah, but if you offend them before they get a chance to see what you're saying haven't you defeated your own purpose?
'Kay, take two seconds and remember I'm on your side.
Two things usually cause people cause people to go hiking and never come home:
1) Hypothermia related to inadequate clothing selected/carried.
2) Getting lost.Yep, sounds right.
Any time someone posts info I consider conducive to setting up a novice for one or both of the above, I feel I have a civic responsibility to inform them that they are FOS.Uhm, I was with you until you said everyone within hearing distance was FOS unless they agreed with you.
Yep, I did extend that a little bit. Got enough Undrinkium under my skin to make fixin' dinner fun, so I'm gonna leave with that.
Well, that and a reminder to check your PM's. ;)
Parkyacar
04-07-2008, 21:00
I used my Garmin legend on an AT hike two years ago. From Killington, VT to the NY border and was on the trail for the whole month of August. I would only turn it on to get my location on my map. It worked great and didn't have to change the batteries once. With Lithiums it would probably last three months. Not only that it helped me in some trail towns finding other things not listed in the guides. Other stores, restaurants, laundry, etc. I'd recommend it.
Two Speed
04-07-2008, 21:13
I used my Garmin legend on an AT hike two years ago. . . I'd recommend it.But would you recommend dumping maps in favor of the GPS?
take-a-knee
04-07-2008, 21:19
Two Speed:
I never said everyone who doesn't agree with me is FOS, I did say that anyone who thinks current GPS units replace the need for a waterproofed paper map are foolhardy, and therefore FOS.
I have learned a ton of info in the brief time I've been posting at whiteblaze from some really knowledgeable posters. I've made several wise, savvy gear purchases based on info I saw here. I am a staunch advocate of HYOH (or live your own life for that matter), I don't tell folks they suck if they don't like alcohol stoves, I tell them an alcohol stove is a good way to drop some pack weight, that isn't an opinion.
I just bought a used tarptent from Don Norton and I like it alot but I don't tell folks who like Hubbas that they are stupid, I just say a tarptent is lighter, for all I know I may decide I like a Hubba for a tent, I've never tried one.
I own and like GPS units, I don't go hunting without one. I'd likely carry mine for any trail other than the AT. I would of course, carry a map and compass also. To those I may have offended, please accept my apologies. I posted what I did only because I saw some advice from others that I considered dangerous to the uninitiated.
Two Speed
04-07-2008, 21:21
Two Speed:
I never said . . .I know, I said I was extending your statement.
Learning is good.
Two Speed:
I never said everyone who doesn't agree with me is FOS, I did say that anyone who thinks current GPS units replace the need for a waterproofed paper map are foolhardy, and therefore FOS.Gimme a break. People whose opinions differ from yours does not make them FOS, and certainly no one is FOS because they don't carry waterproof maps. I've been backpacking since 1972 and the only waterproof maps I've used were the ATC ones in hte last 10-15 years and now some AMC ones. You made some good points about maps and GPSs, as have others. But saying that people who don't carry waterproof maps are FOS is not one. Just for an example, try holding a waterproof or otherwise map and find your position on an exposed ridge in whiteout with a sixty mph horizonal wind blowing snow and ice chips at you.
I think that maps are a necessary part of gear, especially if you are not intimately familiar with the area. Paper map, mapping GPS, waterproof map. They all serve the same basic function, though each is slightly more or less useful in different situations.
If I am going to be on a trail, a paper trail map is fine. If I am bushwhacking and just generally wandering around the woods, a GPS is far superior.
There are a lot of differing opinions on this and other subjects. There is no one right answer that fits everyone, not even mine.
Two Speed
04-07-2008, 21:44
Gimme a break. . . Wow, Frosty, that was some break you were offering t-a-k.
Good thing my map does too. Sleeps With Skunks' GPS just got her more confused ;).
Of course, I've already admitted to using GPS on a number of occasions. But for trail hiking, I still find a decent map more convenient than GPS.
I think a bit of my angst with GPS comes from geocaching with Sleeps With Skunks. The folks who call golf "a good walk spoiled" never geocached.:rolleyes:
:)
I think a real sticking point (and one I've noticed you mention) is the size of the screen. Have to agree with you on this one.
Maps on most GPS handhelds are going to become as, if not more, detailed than paper maps. The ability to embed information into a feature on the map is powerful-- think town stops (location, price, notes, etc). Being able to quickly make sense of all these data capabilities is the problem.
I think the screens will increase in size (while drawing less power) and the pan and zoom features will become more intuitive and quicker. Will this equate to a comparable experience as looking at a whole unfolded map at once?-- probably not. But, it might not be bad at all.
As for energy consumption, I think it is there already. As for satellite acquisition, there seems to be a bit of disparity between the units out there. The reports on some are much better than those of years past-- I honestly haven't used a newer model. Then again, maps are 'turned off' at night and in low visibility conditions- a limitation not placed on gps.
I support k.i.s.s wholeheartedly, and I don't think GPS is there quite yet for me for the AT. I hate fiddling. However, the potential is pretty wild.
As for satellite acquisition, there seems to be a bit of disparity between the units out there. The reports on some are much better than those of years past-- I honestly haven't used a newer model.
I DO have to give props to some newer higher-end GPS. I've used military issue models which were decent (though heavy), but was unimpressed with simple civilian models like the Garmin Gecko, which is what we used with NOLS.
My fiancee, Sleeps With Skunks, used a variation of the Gecko, and when we geocached, I could use a map where I'd plotted the cache and a compass and pace count and find the cache before her with her Gecko about half the time (if we found it at all).
Then I scored a Garmin Vista Cx (while setting up for an REI Scratch 'n' Dent) for her. With this model, she has literally kicked caches as she said "It's right about here...." BUMP! It seems that GPS is a place where you really DO get what you pay for.
You bring up a GREAT point about town services listed on GPS. I hadn't thought about it, but we've done the same thing when driving to a distant trail and wondered where the best town to stop might be. The road map features showing lodging and so forth are nice. Does GPS with base maps show features in a smaller town like Damascus? I've never thought to look when in trail towns, where I usually already know the general layout.
take-a-knee
04-07-2008, 22:47
Gimme a break. People whose opinions differ from yours does not make them FOS, and certainly no one is FOS because they don't carry waterproof maps. I've been backpacking since 1972 and the only waterproof maps I've used were the ATC ones in hte last 10-15 years and now some AMC ones. You made some good points about maps and GPSs, as have others. But saying that people who don't carry waterproof maps are FOS is not one. Just for an example, try holding a waterproof or otherwise map and find your position on an exposed ridge in whiteout with a sixty mph horizonal wind blowing snow and ice chips at you.
I think that maps are a necessary part of gear, especially if you are not intimately familiar with the area. Paper map, mapping GPS, waterproof map. They all serve the same basic function, though each is slightly more or less useful in different situations.
If I am going to be on a trail, a paper trail map is fine. If I am bushwhacking and just generally wandering around the woods, a GPS is far superior.
There are a lot of differing opinions on this and other subjects. There is no one right answer that fits everyone, not even mine.
Good points Frosty, by all means carry your GPS, I love my little Etrex ESPECIALLY for bushwhacking, that trac-bac rocks. By "waterproof map" I didn't mean some whazoo plastified 20$ map. I just meant a map that you'd taken some precautions against having it dissolve in the rain. IE; clear contact paper or a two-gallon ziploc bag. My only point is HAVE A MAP! If they weighed five pounds it might be worth arguing about, but maps are so light I can't see any reason to be without one.
The Old Fhart
04-07-2008, 22:56
Bearpaw-"Then I scored a Garmin Vista Cx (while setting up for an REI Scratch 'n' Dent) for her. With this model, she has literally kicked caches as she said "It's right about here...." BUMP! It seems that GPS is a place where you really DO get what you pay for.That is true. And as good as the Vista Cx is compared to older models, the Garmin 60CSx blows the Vista out of the water but it runs about $300.
Bearpaw-"You bring up a GREAT point about town services listed on GPS. I hadn't thought about it, but we've done the same thing when driving to a distant trail and wondered where the best town to stop might be. The road map features showing lodging and so forth are nice. Does GPS with base maps show features in a smaller town like Damascus? I've never thought to look when in trail towns, where I usually already know the general layout."Well, maybe not base maps, but with the 2Gb micro SD card in my 60CSx I have both street routing and topo maps for the entire eastern seaboard loaded and have plenty of space left on the card. Smaller towns like Damascus have few services listed as POIs (points of interest) on the streets software but it does show Dot's and Cowboys along with some other businesses(see screen shot). One of the data books would have much more information.
3771
Well, maybe not base maps, but with the 2Gb micro SD card in my 60CSx I have both street routing and topo maps for the entire eastern seaboard loaded and have plenty of space left on the card. Do they both run at the same time or do you switch between them. I've had a 60CS for a few years now, and have been holding off buying a CSx waiting for the next jump. I know as soon as I buy a CSx Garmin will announce a new whatsie that will blow away my new puchase. But I keep hearing nice things about the CSx.
Admittedly I have a "penchant" for candor but you know what? All sorts of people lurk and look at our musings, most of whom can't find there a$$ with both hands and come here for info/knowledge.
Two things usually cause people cause people to go hiking and never come home:
1) Hypothermia related to inadequate clothing selected/carried.
2) Getting lost.
Any time someone posts info I consider conducive to setting up a novice for one or both of the above, I feel I have a civic responsibility to inform them that they are FOS.
Dude, the stakes just aren't that high. Chill out. The AT isn't a warzone. If someone's GPS dies on them, so what. They can follow the blazes.
You clearly think you're just the ultimate B-A of the AT, but, uum, I think you'll find when you get out there that it's just not as hardcore as you're making it out to be. It's pretty trees with rain showers now and then!
Dude, the stakes just aren't that high. Chill out. The AT isn't a warzone. If someone's GPS dies on them, so what. They can follow the blazes.
You clearly think you're just the ultimate B-A of the AT, but, uum, I think you'll find when you get out there that it's just not as hardcore as you're making it out to be. It's pretty trees with rain showers now and then!
LOL on that.
I guess readjustment to civilian life is hard for some….
One of the data books would have much more information.
Definitely true-- but I think one of the greatest features of gps units with expanded memories is the ability to customize the data.
For example, if someone were to drop the basic info from the trail guides into a spreadsheet, the information could be uploaded into the gps unit as waypoints, along with any other custom regional info you want. Time consuming? Sure. Would be a sweet tool though.
Also, some units have the ability to view .jpgs and other file types. Significance? Scan in the pages of the trail guides and view them on the device instead.
I've been looking at the Delorme PN-20. I already have their latest topo software and have been impressed (having familiarity with their streets product is a definite plus).
Bearpaw- The unit that I am currently looking at has an 800 character limit per waypoint. I don't know how many waypoints 4 GB holds, but it is more than a couple...
fiddlehead
04-08-2008, 04:59
How long do you think it will take before we will have Google Earth built into the GPS?
With a zoom at least as good as a 7 1/2 minute quad, aye?
That might even cause me to buy a new one.
I just got an etrex legend. That's new enough for me for now.
I learned about 10 years ago how to find where i am in the woods using the GPS with a map. Even at night, in a storm, in a whiteout. (even far from any trail or road) It takes a lot less work with the new fangled ones but can still be done with even the old Magellan Pathfinder (i think that was the name of my first one, it took forever to track enough satellites though) (bought my first one in '97)
NICKTHEGREEK
04-08-2008, 06:33
Admittedly I have a "penchant" for candor but you know what? All sorts of people lurk and look at our musings, most of whom can't find there a$$ with both hands and come here for info/knowledge.
Two things usually cause people cause people to go hiking and never come home:
1) Hypothermia related to inadequate clothing selected/carried.
2) Getting lost.
Any time someone posts info I consider conducive to setting up a novice for one or both of the above, I feel I have a civic responsibility to inform them that they are FOS.
It's a freakin miracle people found their way to the mailbox and back let alone in the woods without you. I'm in total awe
fiddlehead
04-08-2008, 09:14
Thanks for the laugh Nick!
How long do you think it will take before we will have Google Earth built into the GPS?
With a zoom at least as good as a 7 1/2 minute quad, aye?
That might even cause me to buy a new one.
I just got an etrex legend. That's new enough for me for now.
I learned about 10 years ago how to find where i am in the woods using the GPS with a map. Even at night, in a storm, in a whiteout. (even far from any trail or road) It takes a lot less work with the new fangled ones but can still be done with even the old Magellan Pathfinder (i think that was the name of my first one, it took forever to track enough satellites though) (bought my first one in '97)
Read this:
http://www.gpsreview.net/delorme-earthmate-gps-pn-20/
Google earth, not quite (but much closer). The usgs quads are already here, though...
Old Hillwalker
04-08-2008, 10:28
I uses LORAN.....Get a real buzz of'n it. ;)
It seemed like the only reason I ever used map was to look that the trail profile. Has anyone ever copied the profiles off of map and travelled with just profiles rather than the full weight of the maps?
It seemed like the only reason I ever used map was to look that the trail profile. Has anyone ever copied the profiles off of map and travelled with just profiles rather than the full weight of the maps?
Check out the Appalachian Pages...
fiddlehead
04-09-2008, 00:44
Read this:
http://www.gpsreview.net/delorme-earthmate-gps-pn-20/
Google earth, not quite (but much closer). The usgs quads are already here, though...
I checked it out. thanks
It's a start anyway. BUT $400 for only 20 states isn't going to sell me.
I need international for sure. That would be google earth BUT, they only update google earth about every 2 years here in Phuket Thailand. Oh well, i'm sure the future holds lots of technical wonders. When they incorporate the world into a GPS, i may upgrade from my Garmin Legend.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
No problem.
With Google's growing interest in the handheld devices market I don't think you will have to wait very long...
The Old Fhart
04-09-2008, 23:23
This brand new Garmin GPS (http://www.gpsmagazine.com/2008/01/garmin_colorado_400t_review.php?page=1) has a lot of nice features, and a price to match. Note it comes with topos (model 400T) loaded for the entire U.S.. It is a big step forward but at a MSRP of $600 I'll probably wait a while.;)
Click on the link above to see 15 pages of specs and user reviews. It looks like it will have growing pains just like previous models but it does show what the future may hold. If it finally works the way it should, it answers a lot of the wants expressed in this thread. Sorry, no holographic map projection yet!
This brand new Garmin GPS (http://www.gpsmagazine.com/2008/01/garmin_colorado_400t_review.php?page=1) has a lot of nice features, and a price to match. Note it comes with topos (model 400T) loaded for the entire U.S.. It is a big step forward but at a MSRP of $600 I'll probably wait a while.;)
Click on the link above to see 15 pages of specs and user reviews. It looks like it will have growing pains just like previous models but it does show what the future may hold. If it finally works the way it should, it answers a lot of the wants expressed in this thread. Sorry, no holographic map projection yet!
The Delorme mentioned above has topos for the entire US as well as being at a lower price point. The aerial photography ala Google Earth was what was being discussed.
It also includes updated street maps (entire world).
The topos included are their topo 6.0 product, not the latest 7.0, I believe. 6.0 is still relatively fresh (couple of years old)-- the packaged price of ~$300 on their website I think is their way of unloading some copies of 6.0.
I own and have relied on a few of their products and have been happy, otherwise, I have no affiliation.
theinfamousj
04-10-2008, 20:51
I own and have on occasion carried both.
I use the map whenever I lose the trail blazes. I use the GPS whenever I've done a poor job of locating myself on a map. I'm still learning land navigation skills.
Recently, in Uwharrie National Forest, going only on a verbal description of a trail, I stumbled upon a loop that I made out of a few other established trails. I'm excited that my GPS was along for the ride, because I captured the entire path, as well as waypoints for water and established campsites. The National Forest and Topo maps were not nearly as detailed.
The GPS is winning my affections for exploration missions such as these.
But unless you are rocking the exploration portion, you won't need to keep your GPS on all the time, so you can really make batteries last.
fiddlehead
04-10-2008, 21:28
I owned topo USA 3.0 when it was out and it was a great program. I used it for a lot of things including printing out my own maps of the size and zoom level i wanted, creating my own routes, right clicking to insert GPS points whenever i needed, etc. etc. etc.
However, google earth is worldwide and i haven't done much hiking in the USA in the last few years and need info on many parts of Asia. What i tend to do now is look at google earth from home, and move my cursor around and then insert the required points into my gps and go out and hike, drive, jog, whatever. Very accurate, especially when comparing it to local maps. (boy is that an understatement)
I am trying to learn how to create a route on google earth and then uploading the route to my Garmin Legend and go out and hike it. If anyone can help me with this, i would be very appreciative (need any long underwear? can and will give discounts)
I just got the Legend and am just getting used to it. I know it's old fashioned but think it will do what i want if i can figure out how.
OutdoorsMan
04-10-2008, 21:32
I was using GPS's way before most of y'all 'cause taxpayers were paying for them. They never were, and never will be, a replacement for a paper map. The only thing better than a paper map is a tyvek map. Many of you like your GPS units because you've never acquired any real land navigation skills, you don't know how to terrain associate and interpret contour lines or determine a proper azimuth. I own and use a Garmin Etrex, oftentimes it is very convenient, the trac back feature is awesome. It doesn't replace the need for a map and compass, it only augments them.
AMEN Take-A-Knee!
This brand new Garmin GPS (http://www.gpsmagazine.com/2008/01/garmin_colorado_400t_review.php?page=1) has a lot of nice features, and a price to match. Note it comes with topos (model 400T) loaded for the entire U.S.. It is a big step forward but at a MSRP of $600 I'll probably wait a while.;)
Click on the link above to see 15 pages of specs and user reviews. It looks like it will have growing pains just like previous models but it does show what the future may hold. If it finally works the way it should, it answers a lot of the wants expressed in this thread. Sorry, no holographic map projection yet!Thanx for the link. Awesome reading. (For those with short attention spans, the Pros, Cons and Conclusion of GPS Magazine are below.
I like the idea of profiles, enabling the GPS to be a basic topo device or a street map routing device.
I'm not sure why the didn't use the SiRF receiver. Seems odd that they would go back to the old Garmin one.
11. Pros
Beautiful looking device that's rugged and fits nicely in the palm of your hand
Rock 'n Roller scroll wheel/joystick is easy to use
Extremely well built
Bright, 3-inch screen can be easily seen, even in bright, direct sunlight
Support for Whereigo cartridges
Supports automotive, off-road, marine, geocaching, and fitness uses
Can be paired with an optional Garmin Heart Rate Monitor for fitness use
Can be paired with an optional Bike Cadence Sensor for cycling use
Ability to wirelessly transfer waypoints and routes to other Colorado users
Ability to transfer tracks, routes, and waypoints to and from your computer
Larger display than previous Garmin handheld units
SD card memory easier to deal with than microSD used on previous Garmin handhelds
Excellent battery life
Easier to use than previous Garmin handhelds
Digital Elevation Maps can be rendered in a 3D map view
Excellent tracklog support
Includes electronic compass and altimeter
Waterproof to IPX7 standards (can be fully submerged)
Reliable - never crashed and didn't notice any bugs during testing
Good customer support
12. Cons
Expensive
Mysteriously named menus
Cumbersome Route Planner
Slight learning curve
Some overlap between features can cause confusion
13. Conclusion
Colorado is Garmin's newest handheld outdoor GPS aimed at outdoor, marine, and fitness enthusiasts. Available in 4 versions, the 400t model includes 3D elevation perspective and ships preloaded with U.S. topographic maps. Additional maps can be purchased from Garmin. Colorado is also the first GPS to support Whereigo ("where I go"), groundspeak's newest GPS-based activity (the same folks who made geocaching popular).
Colorado's use of profiles makes it easy to switch the GPS from automotive to marine, recreation, fitness, or geocaching mode, automatically re-configuring the menus so that the handheld is optimized for the chosen activity. Colorado supports paperless geocaching, displaying all relevant information about a given geocache so that you can leave the printout at home.
The Colorado weighs 7.3 ounces, runs up to 15 hours on two AA batteries, includes an electronic compass, barometric altimeter, and has an SD slot for loading additional maps. The Colorado displays air temperature, and can be paired with a heart rate monitor and/or speed and cadence sensor for fitness training.
With a suggested retail price of $599, the Colorado 400t isn't cheap. But it performs extremely well and is ideally suited to the outdoor enthusiast looking to buy one GPS that serves many purposes. The Colorado is a major upgrade from previous Garmin handhelds, and is significantly easier to use than Garmin's GPSMAP 60csx.
The Colorado uses Garmin's own GPS receiver instead of SiRF's high performance StarIII receiver. In side-by-side comparison testing, the Colorado performed identically to the SiRF-equipped Garmin GPSMAP 60csx, quickly locking on to satellite signals and maintaining solid reception.
Handheld units are still harder to use than models designed primarily for in-car use, like Garmin's popular nuvi models. But they're also much more versatile and capable devices, and it's well worth the effort it takes to learn how to fully use the Colorado. Those already familiar with handheld GPS units will find Colorado easy to use and extremely powerful.
Those looking to replace their in-car or boating GPS will want to invest in additional, more detailed maps from Garmin, as only the base and topo maps are included on the 400t.
Overall there's very little to complain about on the Colorado 400t. Well built and easier to use than previous models, Colorado raises the bar on what to expect from a handheld GPS.
SGT Rock
04-11-2008, 11:45
Helped a lost hiker this year who had a GPS and a cell phone but no map. He was on the phone trying to tell someone on the other end how he had got where he was and get directions to where he was trying to go. He just assumed that a GPS was the end all tool to keep from getting lost. But a GPS is more like a dot that says you are here on a map at the mall. Unless you have the map to go with that dot, all you have is a usless thing to tell you you are here without any way to relate that to your surroundings you can see or to related to the places you want to go that you cannot see.
Anyhow, he knew what azimuth(s) and distance got him there, knew his location to Lat. Lon. (after I showed on the screen where to find it), but had no idea what that meant in relation to anywhere else on the planet. Since he was trying to get to a place in the mountains, and simply walking an azimuth to a location is not always the desired way to navigate. In the end he just put the thing away and I led him back to a cross trail and told him which way to go to get back home and then how to get a good map of the area.
I reckon his next step (if I hadn't been there with a map) would be to either just keep on rambling around hoping to see something familiar and use his GPS to confirm that he had actually been there, or to call a rescue on his cell phone and use his GPS to give the rescuer his grid.
Helped a lost hiker this year who had a GPS and a cell phone but no map. He was on the phone trying to tell someone on the other end how he had got where he was and get directions to where he was trying to go. He just assumed that a GPS was the end all tool to keep from getting lost. But a GPS is more like a dot that says you are here on a map at the mall. Unless you have the map to go with that dot, all you have is a usless thing to tell you you are here without any way to relate that to your surroundings you can see or to related to the places you want to go that you cannot see.Tsk, tsk. He should have had a mapping GPS. :D
Let us not forget how the ancient Polynesians navigated. I'd suggest that over a map and/or a GPS as well....