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NorthCountryWoods
04-04-2008, 10:17
I've heard references to "dogs fouling a water source" and wonder what is meant by this?

Is it a dog walking thru it?
Drinking from it?
Rolling in it?

I've never seen a dog urinate or defecate near a source so I'm not sure if this is a problem other places and that's what's being referred to, but it would be helpful to those that don't know.

Personally, if I'm letting the dog drink from a source (and that's only on the hottest days), I usually do it downstream and off trail. If not they are drinking from their bowl. If I'm not mistaken, most people get water off trail and upstream, so I don't see how this upsets anything, but again letting dog owners know would be best.

Lilred
04-04-2008, 11:44
For some folks, anytime a dog gets in the water, they are fouling up the source. Even if they go downstream and off trail, some folks will pitch a fit. Frankly, I don't care. Let your dog drink or swim in it, just not go to the bathroom in it. I have a filter so it doesn't matter to me, however, others that use chemicals may get miffed at a dog in a water source. For one, it muddies up the water, and makes it difficult to get non-silty water. I really don't understand the problem with letting dogs drink. It's not like other animals aren't drinking from the same water.

Nearly Normal
04-04-2008, 11:54
Beat the drum.
Blow the horn.
Call the dogs.
Prepare for war.

I wish the site would permanetly post a dog statement.
Do's and don'ts....
Whys and won't......
Whens and wheres....

Whenever another dog question came up they could be auto directed to it and all the zillions of post on file.

NorthCountryWoods
04-04-2008, 12:12
Beat the drum.
Blow the horn.
Call the dogs.
Prepare for war.

I wish the site would permanetly post a dog statement.
Do's and don'ts....
Whys and won't......
Whens and wheres....

Whenever another dog question came up they could be auto directed to it and all the zillions of post on file.

OK....considering there was nothing on the first page and when I searched I got a bunch dog bowl recommendations, I thought this might be helpful.....apparently not.

CrumbSnatcher
04-04-2008, 12:50
The Dog Has Just As Much Right To The Water As The Hiker!,with That Said. I Only Had To Teach My Dog Two Things. One Was To Drink Down Stream From The Hikers.it Took One Lesson. The Creek Before Maxs Patch She Stepped In First And Made It Murky For A Few Minutes,one Hiker Had A Tissy And Actually Packed Up And Moved On,the Other People Did Not Care. The Water Source Was Clear In About Two Minutes And We All Filled Up.

wakapak
04-04-2008, 12:57
I think people need to remember that there are far more other animals out there drinking from the same water sources that we hikers get some of our water from!! Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen...come on, you are out in nature after all!!

i never had a problem with any dog fouling water sources....they need just as much water as we do, and it doesnt bother me if they step in it or whatever. I've never seen one urinate or anything in it, i think animals are usually smart that way...they generally dont like to "go" where they will be eating or drinking from either!!!

Mags
04-04-2008, 13:07
Whenever another dog question came up they could be auto directed to it and all the zillions of post on file.


It would be nice if a responsible dog owner would write such an article.

Most dog discussions can be broken down into two camps:

1) DOGS ARE EVIL!
They do not belong on the trail, the dog park, or even a kennel. They are the spawn of Satan! Only fools believe dogs should be allowed out of a house!

2) DOGS BELONG EVERYWHERE!
I don't care if my dog was just sprayed by a skunk, is soaking wet, full of mud and insists on rubbing against every person and sleeping bag. Fluffy belongs in the shelter! Only evil dog haters would not see my point of view.


Obviously, I exaggerate..but not by much. The truth is somewhere in th middle and a well thought out and written document that fairly looks at the issue with some good ideas for hiking with a dogs may indeed help quell some arguments.

I'd write it..but I don't own a dog.

Mr. Clean
04-06-2008, 05:26
I maintain a section of trail (non- AT) that has a very small spring right below treeline. I have seen dogs get in there and curl up in the pool to cool off. When they get out, it's a muddy mess for quite a while. I'd guess that's what "fouling the waters" would mean.

rlharris
04-06-2008, 20:02
Traditionally in non-hiking circles, "fouling" refers to an animal eliminating (urinating or defecating). If hikers want to broaden the definition to include wading, swimming or drinking, that is their prerogative but it might lead to a misunderstanding by outsiders.

fiddlehead
04-06-2008, 20:31
Immediately a few instances come to my mind.
One was at a small seep spring in or near the boundary of the smokies one year when there was not much water around and this was one of the few seeps. I got there and just as i was about to dip my bottle down to get the trickle, a hikers dog behind me ran ahead and layed down right in the water. That was a bit upsetting.

Same thing happened once on the PCT that i remember. Obviously no leash, the owners were embarrassed as they could see the problem/situation.

The other time that comes to my mind is when a hikers dog bit me in the hand. Again, no leash, i was minding my own business.

Lots has been said on whiteblaze in past forums. Dogs can be cool UNLESS they are not trained, behaved, on a leash, etc. then they can be very uncool!

Tinker
04-06-2008, 20:40
I was hiking in the Bigelow Mountains a number of years ago and checking out the water source which was a rather large spring when two dogs who had been brought in by other hikers decided to treat the spring as their personal bath. I was glad to have my First Need filter. Even if the dogs don't defecate or urinate in the water, it still comes in contact with those areas of their bodies as well as whatever they stepped or lay down in. It's a problem with hikers and unleashed dogs, not the dogs themselves. They're just doing what comes naturally.

JAK
04-06-2008, 20:43
My doggie's OK.
He behaves all right.
He lurks WB all day,
and he howls all night.

sofaking
04-06-2008, 20:45
:clapwhen my dogs start barking i submerge them underwater until they stop...

JAK
04-06-2008, 20:49
I'm going to let my dog start posting again.

Tinker
04-06-2008, 20:54
Sofaking - what a hoot for a forum name. LOL! :p

berninbush
04-06-2008, 20:55
two dogs who had been brought in by other hikers decided to treat the spring as their personal bath. I was glad to have my First Need filter. Even if the dogs don't defecate or urinate in the water, it still comes in contact with those areas of their bodies as well as whatever they stepped or lay down in.

I realize it's off-putting to see other people's dogs do this in front of you... but as someone pointed out above, you have to remember that all manner of deer, possums, skunks, rats, etc. are doing the same thing when people aren't looking. Springs are nature's cooling source on hot summer days, for everybody.

Not saying dog owners shouldn't be responsible when you've got a small slow-flowing water source that everyone's trying to drink from. But if you're making a fuss about a dog getting in downstream in a big creek, you're under some kind of illusion about the purity of the water source in the first place.

JAK
04-06-2008, 21:22
First of all. JAK is not my owner. I rescued him. Secondly, I've smelled a lot of hiker butt in my time, and I wouldn't worry so much about where you get your drinking water until you get your own **** together.

p.s. Bow wow wow.

Wise Old Owl
04-06-2008, 21:33
The Dog Has Just As Much Right To The Water As The Hiker!,with That Said. I Only Had To Teach My Dog Two Things. One Was To Drink Down Stream From The Hikers.it Took One Lesson. The Creek Before Maxs Patch She Stepped In First And Made It Murky For A Few Minutes,one Hiker Had A Tissy And Actually Packed Up And Moved On,the Other People Did Not Care. The Water Source Was Clear In About Two Minutes And We All Filled Up.

Thank you let's edumacate those awkward hikers!
:eek:

Wise Old Owl
04-06-2008, 21:54
After I passed a dead body of Deer that had been half stripped of flesh in the "cleanest water I had ever seen" I gave up and pump filter everything

Frosty
04-06-2008, 23:03
I've smelled a lot of hiker butt in my time,

Bow wow wow.Knick knack, paddy whack, give the dog a bone.

BipolarStroller
04-07-2008, 11:54
There's good dogs and bad dogs, like there are good folks, and bad ones. Some people don't like dogs, and some are very attatched to there quadraped friends. But it's like having kids, if your pet is well trained and behaved others will be glad to have them around, but if your pet is a spoiled brat and ruins it for others than you'll be lucky if the only thing they do is rag you out. Dogs are allowed on the trail with the exception of the parks, but it wouldn't take much to piss off the wrong people and get them completely banned. If you can't get your dog to listen to your command, leave them at home and always filter your water. I know there's alot of things that do their thing in the water, but if I seen ANYTHING sloshing in the water that me or my kids would drink, I'd be grossed out. And the guy who got bit, you shoulda bit the owner, cuz they were obviously neglegent and it shouldn't have happened! Alot of people think they "know" their dog and believe they wouldn't hurt anyone else, but they don't think like us and when they get excited they can become unpredictable. "My dog is friendly and won't bite you" said the dog owner minutes before his rottweiler viciously mauled my 5 yr old in a childrens park with big signs stating the cities leash law. "My lawyer is friendly and will leave you just enough to sit on" I really felt bad for everyone,he was a nice guy, dumb dog!

Soooo, does a bear ***** in the woods, or upstream?

leeki pole
04-07-2008, 12:38
My owner is (or was) a total idiot until I was able to train him to understand how dogs behave. You see, I'm a Lab and that makes me a water dog. I get hot, I do what my ancestors have done for thousands of years, I get wet. I'm sorry if some of his hiking friends are too privileged and expect pristine water sources and badmouth me because I'm just doing what comes natural. It's just a little mud guys, get over it. I don't pee or poop anywhere near them. I don't stay in your spotless shelters, I don't shake all over you. My owner, as dumb as he is, makes sure I stay in his tent with him and yes, he keeps me on this stupid leash although I'm perfectly able to do what he wants me to do. I've been on this planet a lot longer than you have and if I want to get a drink, then heck yeah, I'm getting a drink. Those woods are where my forefathers lived and I have just as much right to them and the resources as you do, in my humble canine opinion. Yeah, I don't pay taxes or support noble causes, I just want to have fun.

Just my two cents. It's hard to type with these big old muddy paws so I apologize if there are any typographical errors in my post.

See you out there, Chipper

peanuts
04-07-2008, 12:42
well said leeki pole.....mmmmmmmm i mean chipper:)

Honey Bee
04-07-2008, 22:18
this is not in response to what i've read on this thread but i can't find the answer to my question:
i am hoping to hike the AT upon my graduation. i have never been without my dog and am dreaming of taking him with me (he's a german shepherd) but how much of the trail is he actually allowed on? what do i do with him for the miles he can't hike with me?

sofaking
04-07-2008, 22:20
this is not in response to what i've read on this thread but i can't find the answer to my question:
i am hoping to hike the AT upon my graduation. i have never been without my dog and am dreaming of taking him with me (he's a german shepherd) but how much of the trail is he actually allowed on? what do i do with him for the miles he can't hike with me?
if he were a dacschund you could hide him in your pack. under the watermelon.;)

Wise Old Owl
04-07-2008, 22:38
People are the biggest foulers of water, today it can be seen from satellites! Dogs just don't compare to the polution of the people & Deer that came before you. Pump!

SGT Rock
04-07-2008, 22:39
this is not in response to what i've read on this thread but i can't find the answer to my question:
i am hoping to hike the AT upon my graduation. i have never been without my dog and am dreaming of taking him with me (he's a german shepherd) but how much of the trail is he actually allowed on? what do i do with him for the miles he can't hike with me?
Can't take him in the Smokies. There are services in the area that kennel dogs and can get them from you at Fontanna and get him back to you at the other side.

That said, there are a lot of considerations besides that you will have to consider.

Honey Bee
04-12-2008, 13:33
how much water do you usually carry on your person? do you have to stop and boil more if you run out during the day?

SteveJ
04-12-2008, 14:34
how much water do you usually carry on your person? do you have to stop and boil more if you run out during the day?

It's according to your hiking style, where you're hiking, the time of the year, and the availability of water.

I have a friend that usually carries no water. He hikes fast, and "camels up" at every water source he comes to.

I hiked a 30 mile section of the AT last August. Many springs were dry. We hiked out of Neel's Gap, going north, with 2 gallons of water for the 3 of us - we knew we'd be at a dry campsite that night.

I hiked a 50 mile section of the AT this week. Plenty of water. Only once did I feel it necessary to fill up my 2 litre platy because I knew we'd be hiking fast that day and I didn't want to stop for water.

Almost no one boils water to purify it. Many use chemical treatment - Aqua Mira is what I use. I ran out earlier this week - we drank straight from springs for most of one day.

Others use a filter of some sort.

KirkMcquest
04-12-2008, 16:24
There's always some negative crap on here about dogs. No, dog's don't 'foul' water sources any more than deer, bear, 'coons, or people. Before most large predators were destroyed here in the east, there were wolves, coyote, wild dogs, etc in abundance.

I've come to realize that there really is a segment of the hiking community that are absolutely opposed to having people bring their dogs on the trail. Most of this ridiculous propaganda stems from these hardcore radicals. They are silly and irrational people who must be ignored.
Use your head, a dog is no different from any other animal in the wild and it's impact on the environment will be similar.

le loupe
04-12-2008, 17:11
the difference is dogs aren't wild animals. We've brought them into our homes and accepted some of their behaviours, others we don't put up with. A dog is not welcome to lick my face, lick his genitals, or hump my leg. He can't lay down with his @ss in my face and he shouldn't be allowed stand in or muddy water from the source I plan to drink from or drink from my receptacle. These are rude behaviors from a poorly behave companion

Sometimes its not the behavior but fact that we have to be confronted with it. If i went into a restaraunt and saw the cook reach into his pants and scratch himself I would raise a fit. Does that mean I'm naive enough to think all manner of disgustingness doesnt happen in the places I eat? Of course not. Put dont pee on my head and tell me its raining.

Tipi Walter
04-12-2008, 17:21
The only concern I have with my backpacking dog and water is how good will he be crossing a raging creek wearing his loaded pack. He's taken a few tumbles in whitewater but always clawed his way to the other side. If it's really bad, I'll lift him by his pack and float him across the worst of it.

Tipi Walter
04-12-2008, 17:27
After I passed a dead body of Deer that had been half stripped of flesh in the "cleanest water I had ever seen" I gave up and pump filter everything

This reminds me of a backpacking trip I did on the North Fork of the Citico back in 2003. I was in thick laurel walking in the creek(where the trail goes)and suddenly saw a half-eaten dead horse sitting in the cleanest water in Tennessee. Its head was 10 feet behind it and its partially eaten white ribcage stood up high from the carcass.

The day before I was camped downstream but as usual I filtered my water. My reaction when I first saw it was the usual high-pitched scream, the same one I use when coming up quickly on a rattlesnake.

hikrgrl
04-14-2008, 08:24
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things that fish do in it."
- W.C. Fields

leeki pole
04-14-2008, 10:31
the difference is dogs aren't wild animals. We've brought them into our homes and accepted some of their behaviours, others we don't put up with. A dog is not welcome to lick my face, lick his genitals, or hump my leg. He can't lay down with his @ss in my face and he shouldn't be allowed stand in or muddy water from the source I plan to drink from or drink from my receptacle. These are rude behaviors from a poorly behave companion

Sometimes its not the behavior but fact that we have to be confronted with it. If i went into a restaraunt and saw the cook reach into his pants and scratch himself I would raise a fit. Does that mean I'm naive enough to think all manner of disgustingness doesnt happen in the places I eat? Of course not. Put dont pee on my head and tell me its raining.
uh, dude, they're dogs not humans. go grow up and come back in a few years. oh, and you might read the rules of this forum.:mad:

The Weasel
04-14-2008, 10:54
There's always some negative crap on here about dogs. No, dog's don't 'foul' water sources any more than deer, bear, 'coons, or people. Before most large predators were destroyed here in the east, there were wolves, coyote, wild dogs, etc in abundance.

I've come to realize that there really is a segment of the hiking community that are absolutely opposed to having people bring their dogs on the trail. Most of this ridiculous propaganda stems from these hardcore radicals. They are silly and irrational people who must be ignored.
Use your head, a dog is no different from any other animal in the wild and it's impact on the environment will be similar.

Kirk ---

There are three levels of response to what you say; you're right, in part, but also mistaken in part.

First, you're right: There are some people who will be against dogs no matter what is said or done. Whatever you say or do won't change them, and I understand your feelings about not wanting to try. So don't bother, at least with them.

Second, as to those who try to realize the reality - that there will be dogs brought - and who want to see dog owners at least be as responsible as possible, both for their dogs and for other people, it IS important to try to meet people like that somewhere in the middle of the debate, both for the sake of your dogs (some issues people have actually DO have some merit for the dog's sake) as well as to reduce the temperature of the discussion. Being just as radical as the totally anti-dog types doesn't help that. Talking about what each type of person can do, and think about, does help.

Last, as for water sources, I think dog owners along the AT should realize that water sources along the trail are the only ones that hikers use/see, but wild animals have far more sources than we do, since their trails and off-trail areas are far more vast. Also, many water sources on the AT are "still water" or small seeps that don't flow much, so when dogs drink from them, their saliva (which naturally drools) gets into and may stay in that seep or small puddle much longer than you think. And it very common and natural for dogs to 'mark' at a water source. Simply put, it is best if dog owners don't let their companion do anything in or near the water that they wouldn't do themselves. That includes drinking since, as mentioned, dogs will salivate far more into water than people do.

I doubt you'd really disagree with that. Dog owners should keep in mind also that dogs can fall victim to the same water pathogens that humans do, including giardia and crypto (which can be serious for them, too), and even pass them to humans (dog drinks contaminated water, human pats dog, dog licks human's hand). So if you filter/treat water for yourself, you should strongly consider doing so for your dog too.

TW

general
04-14-2008, 17:43
i would have to say that water filters are much worse for sources than a little dog slobber. see you stick the end of that filter hose in everything from mudholes in forrestry roads to pristine springs miles away from anywhere. you pick up a little nasty somethin' somethin' from a bad source, and then spread it to every other source until that little nasty on the end of that hose dies. that's why they tell you not to store the two hoses together. one reason i don't filter, just one. drinking dog slobber, maybe not such a pleasant thought, drinking giardia or cryptosporidia, now that will put you down for a while.

so now i ask all of you who feel that dogs foul your water to please leave your disgusting water filter at home. i know you love it and feel that you can't live in the woods without it, but it really puts me out to have to walk a few feet above the trail to get clean water. i really really dislike them and think that filters should be banned from the trail. damn those water filters.

fiddlehead
04-14-2008, 18:06
i would have to say that water filters are much worse for sources than a little dog slobber. see you stick the end of that filter hose in everything from mudholes in forrestry roads to pristine springs miles away from anywhere. you pick up a little nasty somethin' somethin' from a bad source, and then spread it to every other source until that little nasty on the end of that hose dies. that's why they tell you not to store the two hoses together. one reason i don't filter, just one. drinking dog slobber, maybe not such a pleasant thought, drinking giardia or cryptosporidia, now that will put you down for a while.

so now i ask all of you who feel that dogs foul your water to please leave your disgusting water filter at home. i know you love it and feel that you can't live in the woods without it, but it really puts me out to have to walk a few feet above the trail to get clean water. i really really dislike them and think that filters should be banned from the trail. damn those water filters.

Are you seriously trying to scare people into thinking that giardia is spread by the dirty end of your water filter? C'mon, someone may actually believe you.
Obviously, you haven't had a dog come and lay down in the only water source around and foul it for everyone. A good dog owner will keep their dog under control around water sources. (leash, training, whatever it takes)
Out west they have to put barbed wire around water sources to keep cattle out. do we really want to see that on the AT? Or can we just get people to be responsible about their dog?

SGT Rock
04-14-2008, 18:21
Are you seriously trying to scare people into thinking that giardia is spread by the dirty end of your water filter? C'mon, someone may actually believe you.
Obviously, you haven't had a dog come and lay down in the only water source around and foul it for everyone. A good dog owner will keep their dog under control around water sources. (leash, training, whatever it takes)
Out west they have to put barbed wire around water sources to keep cattle out. do we really want to see that on the AT? Or can we just get people to be responsible about their dog?
Actually I can think of a couple of places on the AT that have rail fences up to keep out cows and horses from water sources.

general
04-14-2008, 18:31
Are you seriously trying to scare people into thinking that giardia is spread by the dirty end of your water filter? C'mon, someone may actually believe you.
Obviously, you haven't had a dog come and lay down in the only water source around and foul it for everyone. A good dog owner will keep their dog under control around water sources. (leash, training, whatever it takes)
Out west they have to put barbed wire around water sources to keep cattle out. do we really want to see that on the AT? Or can we just get people to be responsible about their dog?

could happen.

seriously though, my dogs do know to go downstream of the obvious water source, and oddly enough, i usually go upstream of the obvious water source, if at all possible, because i don't filter. the majority of sources flow, at least somewhat, but in some non flowing source, i would think that it would be possible to taint the water with a filter hose, especially those with a prefilter that never really dries out when hiking every day. i saw a guy cleaning the filter element from a msr filter in a slow moving spring once. i would say that released a bunch of nasty sht. now, how long it stayed there, i don't know. and to be quite honest, somebody elses stupid dog lays down in the spring that i've got to get water out of, with no other option, i've got no problem hanging out and enjoying myself until it clears up. why get so bent out of shape about having to wait for a few minutes? maybe folks are trying to beat each other to the next shelter to spend the night with the rats or something.