PDA

View Full Version : Poop procedures



SGT Rock
04-05-2008, 14:46
Something I started contemplating recently are poop procedures. The customary advice is to bury the poop at least 6" below the leaves and duff. BUT more and more of the privies on the AT seem to be turning to mouldering style privy since apparently the poop breaks down faster. Some of them ask you to pee in it, others ask you not too - so I won't go into that aspect.

BUT given the fact that the ATC seems to push using these sorts of privies, then wouldn't it be more environmentally friendly to recommend a person to dig a hole to the bottom of the duff, do their business, then bury the poop in just duff and then leaves to cover the trace. If you get off the trail a hundred feet and poop in no-camping areas it seems that the poop would break down faster and contribute to the soil. I reckon in high use areas without privies the recommendation to bury in the traditional cat-hole still makes total sense.

Thoughts?

Hooch
04-05-2008, 14:55
Rock, I'm thinking that someone had said something about that recently while you were still inabsentia on the Trail. It does make total sense to me, especially if you can do it out of the way like you said. Bonus if you have a blowdown to sit on. :D

Lone Wolf
04-05-2008, 14:55
i never dig a hole.. most times cover it with leaves and branches

Tin Man
04-05-2008, 15:04
For me, the urge to purge is highest halfway between pointless privies.

sofaking
04-05-2008, 15:14
privies are disgusting, thank goodness they're only around those nasty shelter things...

Blissful
04-05-2008, 15:16
That's what I thought also - with the duff procedure. So that's what happened.

Bulldawg
04-05-2008, 15:19
I do what LW does!

JAK
04-05-2008, 15:27
I don't dig either. I just go well off trail and dump and bury in forest litter.
I think it breaks down faster because it is insulated from the cold ground.
I don't use toilet paper. I just use leaves. I think that helps also.

Is there a difference between the following:
1. Forest debris?
2. Forest duff?
3. Forest litter?

Just curious.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
04-05-2008, 15:30
I dig a hole in high use areas, but when I go far off the beaten path (and far from all water sources), I clear the duff, dump, cover with duff and leaves and mark the place with a stick just in case someone goes as far as I did (not likely, but never say never.)

sofaking
04-05-2008, 15:31
I don't dig either. I just go well off trail and dump and bury in forest litter.
I think it breaks down faster because it is insulated from the cold ground.
I don't use toilet paper. I just use leaves. I think that helps also.

Is there a difference between the following:
1. Forest debris?
2. Forest duff?
3. Forest litter?

Just curious.

debris- branches, sticks and such
duff- partially decomposed plant matter
litter-plant leaves (if it's the good kind):-?

JAK
04-05-2008, 15:33
So debris is bigger stuff and litter is smaller stuff and duff is more decomposed stuff. Makes sense. Thanks sofaking.

JAK
04-05-2008, 15:34
As a general rule I try to avoid geo-cache sites. :D

SGT Rock
04-05-2008, 15:35
According to the mouldering privy instructions duff is the layer of stuff that looks like loose potting soil that is under the layer of leaves that have fallen but above the soil layer.

I started going off trail about 50=100 feet and using a log for a bench to do the butt hang. The leaf stuff next to the log is easy to do this in and makes for good sitting. Better than most nasty pit privy holes. But mouldering privies actually do smell better than normal pit latrines.

take-a-knee
04-05-2008, 15:37
You should get it deep enough to keep the flies away from the turds, that is the primary reason for burying, especially near the shelters.

Bulldawg
04-05-2008, 15:38
According to the mouldering privy instructions duff is the layer of stuff that looks like loose potting soil that is under the layer of leaves that have fallen but above the soil layer.

I started going off trail about 50=100 feet and using a log for a bench to do the butt hang. The leaf stuff next to the log is easy to do this in and makes for good sitting. Better than most nasty pit privy holes. But mouldering privies actually do smell better than normal pit latrines.

Do they smell better or is that they just do not smell as bad? I'd say there is a difference. Oh Yeah, how's the ankle??

sofaking
04-05-2008, 15:42
You should get it deep enough to keep the flies away from the turds, that is the primary reason for burying, especially near the shelters.


"don't ***** where you eat. or sleep."

JAK
04-05-2008, 15:44
Interesting point about flies. Hadn't thought so much about flies. I usually squat while leaning back from a tree. Good idea to test tree before dropping drawers. Learned the hard way. Went ass over tea kettle down the hill. Fortunately I had not commenced the deed. ;)

Bulldawg
04-05-2008, 15:45
Interesting point about flies. Hadn't thought so much about flies. I usually squat while leaning back from a tree. Good idea to test tree before dropping drawers. Learned the hard way. Went ass over tea kettle down the hill. Fortunately I had not commenced the deed. ;)

:bse:bse:bse:bse

Hilarious!! Anybody get pictures??

JAK
04-05-2008, 15:56
:bse:bse:bse:bse

Hilarious!! Anybody get pictures??No, but my wife was an eye witness to the entire procedure. It was winter. Snow everywhere. Deep snow, if you catch my drift.

Wilson
04-05-2008, 16:07
It don't matter how fast you try, them green flys will be on it before you can cover it up...Where do they come from? Ya never see one till ya take a dump, then all a sudden there's a dozen on the pile.

sofaking
04-05-2008, 16:09
It don't matter how fast you try, them green flys will be on it before you can cover it up...Where do they come from? Ya never see one till ya take a dump, then all a sudden there's a dozen on the pile.
did you bring them with you? :eek:

Bulldawg
04-05-2008, 16:10
It don't matter how fast you try, them green flys will be on it before you can cover it up...Where do they come from? Ya never see one till ya take a dump, then all a sudden there's a dozen on the pile.

They were following you from behind before you stopped to do your business.

Tin Man
04-05-2008, 16:10
Precaution: When sitting with your butt hanging over a log and your drawers down, make sure your feet are planted in front of you and not tucked under the log! Also, be sure everything is pointing in a safe direction, unless you are into the special shower thing.

sofaking
04-05-2008, 16:22
apparently the book 'how to sh1t in the woods' will enjoy repeated publishings...

amigo
04-05-2008, 16:26
I dig a hole in high use areas, but when I go far off the beaten path (and far from all water sources), I clear the duff, dump, cover with duff and leaves and mark the place with a stick just in case someone goes as far as I did (not likely, but never say never.)
Dammit, FD, I thought a stick meant "here is a good spot to sit down and take in the view"!?!

Seriously, here is one of many links to authorities that suggest an overly-deep burial of the unwanted is not the best way to "go":

http://www.blm.gov/education/lnt/background/dispose.htm

Personally, I try to bury it deep enough to stay hidden but shallow enough that it gets oxygen and the bacteria can break it down. Typically, I scrape away the leaves and really loose hummus, then scratch up and loosen the the hard soil, then cover it all with a mixture of what I scraped off. Think of it as a mini compost pile. I do insist that coverage be adequate to keep it covered and outta sight, LNT and all.

My other pet peeve is all the urinating that goes in and around popular camping spots. I have a sensitive nose (for example, I can often smell deer and especially elk, from a hundred or so yards away) and those spots constantly smell like the back stairwell of an abandoned building in the Bronx, if ya know what I mean. For this reason I have been a stealth camper for decades before I ever heard the term.

sofaking
04-05-2008, 16:29
Dammit, FD, I thought a stick meant "here is a good spot to sit down and take in the view"!?!

Seriously, here is one of many links to authorities that suggest an overly-deep burial of the unwanted is not the best way to "go":

http://www.blm.gov/education/lnt/background/dispose.htm

Personally, I try to bury it deep enough to stay hidden but shallow enough that it gets oxygen and the bacteria can break it down. Typically, I scrape away the leaves and really loose hummus, then scratch up and loosen the the hard soil, then cover it all with a mixture of what I scraped off. Think of it as a mini compost pile. I do insist that coverage be adequate to keep it covered and outta sight, LNT and all.

My other pet peeve is all the urinating that goes in and around popular camping spots. I have a sensitive nose (for example, I can often smell deer and especially elk, from a hundred or so yards away) and those spots constantly smell like the back stairwell of an abandoned building in the Bronx, if ya know what I mean. For this reason I have been a stealth camper for decades before I ever heard the term.
that's why i avoid shelters...that and the people :-?

SGT Rock
04-05-2008, 16:29
Do they smell better or is that they just do not smell as bad? I'd say there is a difference. Oh Yeah, how's the ankle??
In the winter they smell better. In fact they sort of smell like mothballs - but not quite as strong. I'm not sure how smelly they could get when the heat is on.

The ankle feels OK but I ain't walking on it nor do I have a load on. Yesterday I felt like too, but then I went to the grocery with my wife and by the end of the walk around the place my heel and ankle were reminding me about the injury. BTW, this is also the leg/ankle/foot combo that caused the doctor at my retirement physical to tell me to not run anymore. I have bone spurs, planter fasciitis (sp?) and shin splints on that side from years of abuse.

sofaking
04-05-2008, 16:41
In the winter they smell better. In fact they sort of smell like mothballs - but not quite as strong. I'm not sure how smelly they could get when the heat is on.

The ankle feels OK but I ain't walking on it nor do I have a load on. Yesterday I felt like too, but then I went to the grocery with my wife and by the end of the walk around the place my heel and ankle were reminding me about the injury. BTW, this is also the leg/ankle/foot combo that caused the doctor at my retirement physical to tell me to not run anymore. I have bone spurs, planter fasciitis (sp?) and shin splints on that side from years of abuse.
sucks to hear ...
"that which does not kill me, makes me ornerier..."

Tennessee Viking
04-05-2008, 18:13
Well I try to stay down hill of trail, below a tree for coverage and balance. But if I am on trail or at a shelter/camp area, I will cathole to the best as I can. Then I place a leaves, branches, and duff on top to let it molder. And if I see any sign of water, I will go to the next hollow, cross the ridge, or walk down a timber/forest road.

Tin Man
04-05-2008, 18:24
Well I try to stay down hill of trail,...

Never ever download on a slope. Pooing down hill from the AT is very considerate to AT hikers, but what about what is downhill from there? I mean, what if that puppy gets away? Once it starts getting a head of steam it could pick up a lot of debris and cause massive mudslides, tree falls and god knows what!

sofaking
04-05-2008, 18:27
Never ever download on a slope. Pooing down hill from the AT is very considerate to AT hikers, but what about what is downhill from there. I mean, what if that puppy gets away? Once it starts getting a head of steam it could pick up a lot of debris and cause massive mudslides, tree falls and god knows what!
poo avalanche took out a whole flock of boy scouts last year in the smokies...

Bulldawg
04-05-2008, 18:29
Never ever download on a slope. Pooing down hill from the AT is very considerate to AT hikers, but what about what is downhill from there? I mean, what if that puppy gets away? Once it starts getting a head of steam it could pick up a lot of debris and cause massive mudslides, tree falls and god knows what!

I now have a complete mental image I did not need to have in my head this close to supper.

Peaks
04-05-2008, 18:57
Rock,

Good question. But I suspect that the problem is that most people don't properly cover up a cat hole. Just look at the mine fields around most shelters maintained by the Tenn Eastman Club where there are not privies. It's not a pretty site.

Tractor
04-05-2008, 19:02
Another precaution: As best you can scope out under-around said blowdown-tree for resting reptiles. Don't want to be caught in mid process when the loud buzzing starts. With me it was an almost. Gathered and went on another mile or so after that potential incident. Had to laugh later, though, thinking about that old joke........

double j
04-05-2008, 19:04
lol i was at moutain sports right off exit 7 in bristol to get me a map of cherokee and pisgah national forest and saw a book called hot to ***** in the woods lol think some of u may need this .....lol

sofaking
04-05-2008, 19:07
Another precaution: As best you can scope out under-around said blowdown-tree for resting reptiles. Don't want to be caught in mid process when the loud buzzing starts. With me it was an almost. Gathered and went on another mile or so after that potential incident. Had to laugh later, though, thinking about that old joke........
wouldn't think there would be too much need to finish elsewhere in that situation...:-?

Hikes in Rain
04-05-2008, 19:08
For me, the urge to purge is highest halfway between pointless privies.

And directly proportional to the lack of, um, visibility screening.

Philippe
04-05-2008, 19:48
Okay, so we all pretty much agree that decaying leaves and twigs make up duff. Burying it in the duff is a great idea, because the duff is already decaying. The problem is the next coyote, dog, bear, ........ (fill in the blank) that comes by is just going to dig it and roll in it. That's what makes all those little pits around the lean-to. Hey, why aren't the people that worry about hiking poles worried about that. I think Dino's thoughts about placement make the most sense.

woodsy
04-05-2008, 20:19
What happened to the "Pack it out" thread?:D

Bulldawg
04-05-2008, 20:20
We are worrying WAY too much about a little bit of $h1t!!

Wilson
04-05-2008, 20:22
They were following you from behind before you stopped to do your business.

Well I lobed that one over the plate, way to hit it out.:)
Hate to see greenflies on my food cuz I know where they been.

Bulldawg
04-05-2008, 20:24
Well I lobed that one over the plate, way to hit it out.:)
Hate to see greenflies on my food cuz I know where they been.

I just couldn't resist. It was sitting there almost on a tee wanting to be knocked out of the park!!

SGT Rock
04-05-2008, 21:13
I don't know about animals doing all that digging up of poop. I've not seen a lot of interest in the poop by animals yet I hear people bring it up. The times I have seen paper disturbed by animals they are nesting with it, not just moving it around.

In fact I've seen food left laying around and not disturbed for days including a cooked pan of beans and franks. I have seen toilet paper blowing around at shelters and uncovered poop, but I have also noticed that this is normally in areas that do not have a duff layer, only loose leaves and hard packed soil most likely due to the nature of the human usage. If you only cover with leaves in areas like this, chances are good the next good windstorm will shift the leaves off the poop and the paper everywhere else.

jesse
04-05-2008, 21:43
paper ought to be packed out. No big deal get a zip lock.

sofaking
04-05-2008, 21:44
I don't know about animals doing all that digging up of poop. I've not seen a lot of interest in the poop by animals yet I hear people bring it up. The times I have seen paper disturbed by animals they are nesting with it, not just moving it around.

In fact I've seen food left laying around and not disturbed for days including a cooked pan of beans and franks. I have seen toilet paper blowing around at shelters and uncovered poop, but I have also noticed that this is normally in areas that do not have a duff layer, only loose leaves and hard packed soil most likely due to the nature of the human usage. If you only cover with leaves in areas like this, chances are good the next good windstorm will shift the leaves off the poop and the paper everywhere else.
i agree...animals generally shouldn't have any interest in human waste. if any thing they'd avoid it. i ought to know, i took a dump under a buddies tree stand and he didn't see a deer all season, heh heh...

Frolicking Dinosaurs
04-05-2008, 21:52
There is animal scat all over the trails and the animals aren't disturbing it - why on earth would they want to dig up human poo?

Tin Man
04-05-2008, 21:58
There is animal scat all over the trails and the animals aren't disturbing it - why on earth would they want to dig up human poo?

I saw something recently that ancient man/woman survived saber sooth and his fellow extra large carnivores because man/woman didn't taste good. Probably applies to the odor of our trace as well.

sofaking
04-05-2008, 22:23
I saw something recently that ancient man/woman survived saber sooth and his fellow extra large carnivores because man/woman didn't taste good. Probably applies to the odor of our trace as well.
and had fire, atlatls and numbers...

Philippe
04-05-2008, 23:22
[quote=SGT Rock;587163]I don't know about animals doing all that digging up of poop. I've not seen a lot of interest in the poop by animals yet I hear people bring it up. The times I have seen paper disturbed by animals they are nesting with it, not just moving it around.
quote]

Coyotes will and do roll in it, as will many dogs. Bears often roll in things that are rotting. I think that they are predators and are trying to cover their scent. My son has a that husky has gotten out and come back smelling like fermenting roadkill and poop. I remember seeing a video of two grizzlies in the Pacific Northwest rolling on the carcass of a bloated, rotting whale. That had to be the worst. I agree that they don't seem to have much interest in herbivore poop. I don't know about leaving food around. That's just asking for trouble.

GGS2
04-05-2008, 23:29
I saw something recently that ancient man/woman survived saber sooth and his fellow extra large carnivores because man/woman didn't taste good. Probably applies to the odor of our trace as well.

I think sabretooth tigers were specialists. Most likely they and others like cave bears didn't hunt humans because they specialized in other game. Many of the oddball animals, extremes of morphology, seem to have become victims of overspecialization and ecological shift.

Tennessee Viking
04-06-2008, 01:32
Never ever download on a slope. Pooing down hill from the AT is very considerate to AT hikers, but what about what is downhill from there? I mean, what if that puppy gets away? Once it starts getting a head of steam it could pick up a lot of debris and cause massive mudslides, tree falls and god knows what!Well I make sure its not a switchback.


Rock,

Good question. But I suspect that the problem is that most people don't properly cover up a cat hole. Just look at the mine fields around most shelters maintained by the Tenn Eastman Club where there are not privies. It's not a pretty site.Thanks for the plug for this discussion. You can actually thank the Forest Service for this issue. Though we have maintained the northern TN section for a number of years, the Forest Service was the ones in charge of building most of the shelters. We now just starting to seperate from their concrete habits. Then its one of the most travelled and abused sections on trail.

SGT Rock
04-06-2008, 10:02
While I have seen dogs and other cannids roll in some poop, I've seen lots of dried and undisturbed piles laying around as well. If a pile can stay around for weeks without disturbance despite having coyote tracks over it, I tend to think that the instances of dogs or other cannids actually going out to dig up human poop for a good roll is probably low. In my experience cannids prefer to roll in cow poop and other herbivore poop (like an elephant poop roll I recall). I don't know why, maybe an instinct to cover scent when hunting prey from way back or something.

JAK
04-06-2008, 10:13
I think wolves and wolf like dogs also like to eat their own poop, but not ours.

As far as latrines and cat holes go, I think one of the most critical things is not to have too much water, because it increases and spreads the population of potentially harmful microbes, assuming they are present. If it is a wet latrine encased in concrete or plastic that is probably OK. The non-chemical and less wet ones that separate the urine from the feces are supposed to work better and be better for the environment. There is a new nature park in New Brunswick at Cape Tormentine that uses composting toilets in the interpretation centre. I am not sure if the same approach needs to be taken for single use cat holes. I think the process is sufficiently bi-directional anyway. I think it is important to find a reasonably dry location though, and then cover it in such a way that it will not dry out too much before it decomposes on its own. I think it has all the ingredients to self decompose, though duff helps. If in doubt bury it deeper I would say.

Flush2wice
04-06-2008, 13:41
I usually burn my poop in the fire ring.

sofaking
04-06-2008, 13:56
I usually burn my poop in the fire ring.
gross. everyone knows that fire rings are for urine only.

Jester2000
04-06-2008, 15:43
Seriously, here is one of many links to authorities that suggest an overly-deep burial of the unwanted is not the best way to "go":

http://www.blm.gov/education/lnt/background/dispose.htm

Personally, I try to bury it deep enough to stay hidden but shallow enough that it gets oxygen and the bacteria can break it down. Typically, I scrape away the leaves and really loose hummus, then scratch up and loosen the the hard soil, then cover it all with a mixture of what I scraped off. Think of it as a mini compost pile. I do insist that coverage be adequate to keep it covered and outta sight, LNT and all.


Hmmm. I see this as a case of finding the one thing in an article that supports what you've already chosen to do, and ignoring the rest. Aside from the fact that the study in question was not done with East Coast soil or conditions, the very article cited says this:

"Contrary to popular opinion, research indicates that burial of feces actually slows decomposition (at least in the Rocky Mountains). Pathogens have been discovered to survive for a year or more when buried. However, in light of the other problems associated with feces, it is still generally best to bury it. The slow decomposition rate causes the need to choose the correct location, far from water, campsites, and other frequently used places."

It then goes on to give proper depths (6-8 inches most places, shallower in desert regions).

Is it possible that folks who don't bury their waste convince themselves that their method is the more ecologically sound, when in reality they just don't feel like carrying a trowel?

JAK
04-06-2008, 16:29
If I feel the need to dig, I don't need a trowel.

clured
04-06-2008, 17:10
When bears start digging little holes for their crap with little orange spades, I will too.

SGT Rock
04-06-2008, 17:12
I saw more orange peels on the ground in 800 miles than I saw human turds.

But I also saw more bear, fox, coyote, and dog crap than human in 800 miles this year as well. I didn't see any of that getting rolled in or buried.

Jester2000
04-07-2008, 14:12
If I feel the need to dig, I don't need a trowel.

What do you use to dig a hole 6-8 inches deep?


When bears start digging little holes for their crap with little orange spades, I will too.

Actually, all of the bears hanging out in my home must be burying their poo, as I haven't seen large piles of it in my house. On the other hand, it's possible that there aren't any bears in my house. That's the nice thing about LNT bears. You never know that they've been around. It's cool when hikers do likewise.


I saw more orange peels on the ground in 800 miles than I saw human turds.

But I also saw more bear, fox, coyote, and dog crap than human in 800 miles this year as well. I didn't see any of that getting rolled in or buried.

Hey, I've tried to convince animals to use trowels, and they come back at me with the whole opposable thumb thing, which is a lame excuse, I think, and then they point out that it's silly for them to do it if humans, who should be able to master actions above the instinctual levels, can't be bothered.

All I'm saying is, there are best practices printed in places accessible to humans. Are there good scientific arguments for why they shouldn't be followed, or just some convenient environmentalists who substitute snark when what they choose to do runs counter to the current recommendations?

Do you have reasons, or justifications?

Bulldawg
04-07-2008, 15:27
Here's my questions.....
How many years has the human species been on the planet?
How many years passed before some eco scientist decided we needed to bury our poop?
Or did we just bury it from the get go?
How about all that bat guano in those caves?
Why don't the bats have to bury theirs?
Is unburied human waste causing global warming?
Inquiring minds MUST know........

Jimmers
04-07-2008, 16:26
Here's my questions.....
How many years has the human species been on the planet?
How many years passed before some eco scientist decided we needed to bury our poop?
Or did we just bury it from the get go?
How about all that bat guano in those caves?
Why don't the bats have to bury theirs?
Is unburied human waste causing global warming?
Inquiring minds MUST know........

Is it relevant?
Whenever the first sanitation engineer degree was earned.
Well, it is in the Bible. Deuteronomy 23:12, I believe.
We're not bats; only crazies and scientists go into bat caves. Oh, and Batman.
Because bats don't step in their own feces.
No, but it does cause disgust, and attracts flies.
Well, know you know.

SGT Rock
04-07-2008, 17:01
What do you use to dig a hole 6-8 inches deep?

Well actually I have cat-holed a lot of times without needing a trowel. I owned one once and bent it in half the first time I tried digging with it. A tent stake, stick, hiking pole, or sometimes even a heal works. Pointing to a trowel-less hiker and deciding they do not cat-hole is a fallacy.


Actually, all of the bears hanging out in my home must be burying their poo, as I haven't seen large piles of it in my house. On the other hand, it's possible that there aren't any bears in my house. That's the nice thing about LNT bears. You never know that they've been around. It's cool when hikers do likewise.

Hey, I've tried to convince animals to use trowels, and they come back at me with the whole opposable thumb thing, which is a lame excuse, I think, and then they point out that it's silly for them to do it if humans, who should be able to master actions above the instinctual levels, can't be bothered.

As to animals waiting for us to start before they do, it was only slightly humorous. As far as I know they won't start cat-holing no matter what we do (except cats). And the point wasn't that we need to emulate the animals: it was that despite the regular claim that animals love to play with poop, I have seen lots of surface laid poop that never got played in.

I remember a hunter telling me I was lying when I told him deer like to lick up human urine in campsites for the salt because the prevailing wisdom for deer hunter is human urine scares deer away. Just because everyone repeats something doesn't mean it is true.


All I'm saying is, there are best practices printed in places accessible to humans. Are there good scientific arguments for why they shouldn't be followed, or just some convenient environmentalists who substitute snark when what they choose to do runs counter to the current recommendations?

And back to the original point. We learn and change practices all the time as people come up with new ways to do things and new research. The point at the start is the ATC seems to be changing from pit latrines to composting waste. If the composting recommendations are replicated in a low impact situation wouldn't it stand to reason that it might actually be a better way considering the fact that ATC thinks it is better than the old "hole"?



Do you have reasons, or justifications?

If you want to argue that you have to no matter what, then where is your reason or justification other than "that is the way it has always been done""? The point was to get people to talk about if and when another method may be better based on the ATCs own new policies. As for snark - I saw lots in your post. Snarky can also come from people that would rather not think about stuff because they have decided it is already figured out.

Think about it.

Newb
04-09-2008, 10:59
Scientists just found fossilized poop in a cave in Oregon. So, it seems that even if you bury it someday someone might find it useful.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,346049,00.html

powderbank
04-09-2008, 11:18
Scientists just found fossilized poop in a cave in Oregon. So, it seems that even if you bury it someday someone might find it useful.

After a week on trail eating dried bag food, it is hard to believe someone will find my deposit useful. lol Bury it off the trail, hate to step into someones slack ass commode. When nature calls, and really calls, sometimes you have to do what is necessary, even bending a rule or two. Use receptacles when possible, much better for the environment. Untreated sewage is just that, untreated sewage.

Wags
04-09-2008, 11:53
actually decomposed/decomposing poop and other debris makes very good fertilizer (think manure - there's very little difference in different animal's poop). general rule of thumb is the darker the soil, the better. why do you think forest ground is so dark and full of plant life? poop and decomposing plants. i'm not saying poop in a river, but there's nothing wrong w/ pooping off the trail

SGT Rock
04-09-2008, 12:20
There is actually a market for fossilized poop:

http://www.curiogrove.com/coprolite/index.htm

envirodiver
04-09-2008, 13:34
It makes sense that the duff layer would be the best place for the feces to decompse faster since there are likely to be more active aerobic bacteria populations in that layer.

Just dropping it on the ground is a different matter, which unless I read the posts wrong, is what some folks are proposing. I sure don't want to step in it when looking for my perfect stealth camping spot. Plus anyone that places TP on the ground surface is not just being unsanitary, they are littering. Is the next step to take the trash 100' off the trail and throw it on the ground, since it's away from the trail.

I'll continue to haul my trowel around and try to dig a good hole, fill it in and cover it properly.

Poop...I'm against it.

tlbj6142
04-09-2008, 16:49
I'll continue to haul my trowel around and try to dig a good hole, fill it in and cover it properly.Therein lies my problem with the cat hole method (and I have to believe this happens to most folks). I can't dig a hole most places I go. There always seems to be rock, roots or packed clay/dirt just below the surface. Which means, I might as well not bring a trowel at all. So, I don't. Walk well away from trail/campsite, clear the duff, poop on surface, bury with duff. Carryout TP.

The only other method I often use in really rocky areas is to wiggle loose a rock. Poop in the divot, put rock back on top. Carryout TP.

The real problem are the losers that insists on crapping 15' away from campsites and/or "obvious" break locations. Though in heavy, heavy use areas (some shelters) even if you dispersed 150-200' you may still have issues. Guess that's why they have privies.

sirbingo
04-10-2008, 10:37
Here is my procedure: I poop in the woods and then cover it with flotsam and jetsam.

warren doyle
04-10-2008, 11:13
I rely on the simple law of gravity.

River Runner
04-13-2008, 03:43
There always seems to be rock, roots or packed clay/dirt just below the surface.

A snow stake works a lot better than a trowel in these areas.

tlbj6142
04-13-2008, 08:55
A snow stake works a lot better than a trowel in these areas.Something like this (http://www.rei.com/product/358111)?

shelterbuilder
04-13-2008, 11:54
I've been told many times that I don't know $h!t, but since I've ben running BMECC's composter program for 20 years, I'll weigh in on this topic.

First, some basics: poop is broken down by the same microbes and soil invertebrates that break down forest debris, which is then used by the local plants for food. (Nothing in nature is wasted.) Pathogens are destroyed by sunlight, temperature changes, and food competition by other microbes. Time, oxygen, and temperature are also factors in this process.

The old pit latrines don't work too well - no microbes, no OXYGEN - they turn waste into an ammonia soup that's still pathogen-laden. They are basically a holding tank waiting for the "honey-truck" to come and pump out. Composting toilets allow the normal process to proceed in a confined space, so they meet the modern standards for waste processing without allowing the waste to come into contact with the forest floor. Mouldering toilets are not quite the same, but work on the same principle. They are, however, easier to manage and operate, hence the ATC's acceptance of them.

If you poop into a cat hole that is less than 8 inches deep and cover it up, the soil microbes will do their job adequately. The hole can be as shallow as 2 -3 inches, but please DO cover it up - the flies can carry the pathogens away and land on your food later - UGH!

minnesotasmith
04-13-2008, 12:33
Scientists just found fossilized poop in a cave in Oregon. So, it seems that even if you bury it someday someone might find it useful.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,346049,00.html

For fossilized excrement from vertebrates is "coprolites". (A standard geology major prank in college is to hand a nonmajor a coprolite, THEN tell them what it is.)

If from nonvertebrates, the term is "fecal pellets", whether fossilized or fresh. The beach on the west coast of Andros Island in the Bahamas is predominantly of this material, especially from snails. Feel completely free to bring this up, next time someone rubs their recent Bahamas vacation in your face. :D

================================================
On a different subject, what is the current wisdom on smearing one's excrement on a large rock that gets sunlight? I don't do this, but had heard this was at one time well-thought-of. Out west (or at least treeless/low-shade spots), in remote areas, would seem the most logical setting for this.

shelterbuilder
04-13-2008, 13:07
================================================
On a different subject, what is the current wisdom on smearing one's excrement on a large rock that gets sunlight? I don't do this, but had heard this was at one time well-thought-of. Out west (or at least treeless/low-shade spots), in remote areas, would seem the most logical setting for this.

Boy! that's a new one on me! (Well, I hope that it's not REALLY on me....)

Sunlight is a MAJOR pathogenicide because of the UV component, so I suspsect that what they are trying to do is to expose as much of the waste as possible to as much UV radiation as possible. In terms of waste disposal, (to quote Colin Fletcher) "rock is not acceptable; rock is not acceptable; rock is not acceptable". There are no colonies of microbes present in large enough amounts on rock surfaces to turn waste into soil components.

This sounds like pseudo-science: someone who knows a little about the subject trying to do something that (maybe) can't be done. Show me the research first.

Jester2000
04-13-2008, 14:14
Boy! that's a new one on me! (Well, I hope that it's not REALLY on me....)

Sunlight is a MAJOR pathogenicide because of the UV component, so I suspsect that what they are trying to do is to expose as much of the waste as possible to as much UV radiation as possible. In terms of waste disposal, (to quote Colin Fletcher) "rock is not acceptable; rock is not acceptable; rock is not acceptable". There are no colonies of microbes present in large enough amounts on rock surfaces to turn waste into soil components.

This sounds like pseudo-science: someone who knows a little about the subject trying to do something that (maybe) can't be done. Show me the research first.

In the desert this was termed "frosting a rock" or "smearing." I don't know the research behind it, but the idea was that desert soil was lacking in the necessary amount of microbes to do the work necessary, and that spreading your waste as thinly as possible on a rock surface (far away from trails) would allow the sun to break down the poo.

I don't believe this is recommended practice now, but I do know that in desert soil one is supposed to dig a shallower cathole so that the heat of the sun can assist in breakdown.

River Runner
04-13-2008, 14:49
Something like this (http://www.rei.com/product/358111)?

Yes. That's it.

take-a-knee
04-13-2008, 15:15
I've been told many times that I don't know $h!t, but since I've ben running BMECC's composter program for 20 years, I'll weigh in on this topic.

First, some basics: poop is broken down by the same microbes and soil invertebrates that break down forest debris, which is then used by the local plants for food. (Nothing in nature is wasted.) Pathogens are destroyed by sunlight, temperature changes, and food competition by other microbes. Time, oxygen, and temperature are also factors in this process.

The old pit latrines don't work too well - no microbes, no OXYGEN - they turn waste into an ammonia soup that's still pathogen-laden. They are basically a holding tank waiting for the "honey-truck" to come and pump out. Composting toilets allow the normal process to proceed in a confined space, so they meet the modern standards for waste processing without allowing the waste to come into contact with the forest floor. Mouldering toilets are not quite the same, but work on the same principle. They are, however, easier to manage and operate, hence the ATC's acceptance of them.

If you poop into a cat hole that is less than 8 inches deep and cover it up, the soil microbes will do their job adequately. The hole can be as shallow as 2 -3 inches, but please DO cover it up - the flies can carry the pathogens away and land on your food later - UGH!

Thank you, maybe they'll listen to you instead of me. It was obvious by the drift of this post that most don't understand the fly's role as disease vector. I knew this wasn't understood overseas in most places but I guess I wrongly assumed it was understood here...publik skools strike again.

1srelluc
04-13-2008, 16:13
Crap on the leaves, wipe a$$, poke the tp into hole in duff made by a stick. Kick some leaves over crap/hole. Done Good point about the flys but I don't think I could hit a hole with my poo if I tried. Sometimes it is more of a shotgun effect!

mudhead
04-13-2008, 16:54
Dig bigger hole.

TIDE-HSV
04-13-2008, 17:19
This thread put me in mind of two wildly inappropriate pooping incidents I happened onto. One was out in the Wind Rivers, out of Lander, WY and Dickinson Park. I was hiking off-trail in an area with small lakes and rock with higher peaks all around. I rounded a rock and was greeted by the sight of an enormous butt overhanging a deadfall. He was about 8-10' from the lake and I had to practically squeeze by him, since there wasn't much room before the rocks went straight up. I cleared my throat, scaring the poop (figuratively) out of him, and as I passed, I suggested that there might be better places and he told me to mind my own business. I started to say that poop right by a water source, on rock, was my business, but I've learned that you don't get anywhere trying to talk to that kind of jerk.

The other incident happened in the GSMNP. A friend and I were hiking into Siler's Bald from the High Rocks (south) side and we came into a clearing not far from the main ridge. It may have used to be a designated camp site. We rounded a bend in the trail, and there was a guy in the middle of the trail, britches dropped, about to dump, but that was just the start. He was a dwarf, and his tall, blond, good looking (presumed) girl friend was standing by him. The dwarf grumped "A man can't take a s**t anywhere." I suggested the woods and he replied with an obscenity. As we rounded the next bend, out of sight, my friend asked "Did you just see a little guy, taking a crap in the trail?" I assured him I'd seen the same thing. I guess he thought he had had a hallucination...

Well, three tales. My wife and I spent our honeymoon in the Wind Rivers. We arrived at our first site in the middle of a storm and camped too close to the lake (wilderness regs). When we moved up the next day, I just left the food hanging by the lake, only about 4' off the ground, since bear hunting is allowed in the Wilderness Area, I was just worried about varmints. The second AM, I got up, glanced down at the lake and food bag, to see it swinging and the rope slack. Below it was a yearling black bear, munching on the gorp which was in the bottom. I charged him, yelling and throwing rocks and chased him up the hill. I'd've wrestled him, if need be, with the nearest food being over 17 miles away and over an 11,800' pass. After everything settled down, my wife went further up the hill to a thicket for a nature call. I looked up to see her running down the slope, pulling up her pants as she came. Then, the bear exited the copse to the right, also at high speed. They'd almost scared each other to death...

shelterbuilder
04-13-2008, 18:46
Thank you, maybe they'll listen to you instead of me. It was obvious by the drift of this post that most don't understand the fly's role as disease vector. I knew this wasn't understood overseas in most places but I guess I wrongly assumed it was understood here...publik skools strike again.

Most folks here in the states don't think about things like this, because most of us use flush toilets: poop into the bowl, the poop is immediately covered with water (so it doesn't smell), turn the handle and it "magically disappears". Nobody knows where it goes, and nobody cares, as long as it's out of sight! We are so far removed from the "recycling process" that many of the details come as quite a shock!

From a public health standpoint, the flush toilet is a great advance over the old "chamberpot-tossed-out-the-window" of days gone by, but it uses an incredible amount of potable water, which in turn has to be cleaned before it can be re-used for anything. Dry toilets make a lot more sense, but they have a PR problem that needs to be overcome.

chknfngrs
04-13-2008, 19:16
So is it safe to say that when you hike your own hike, do you poop your own poop? Meaning, to each his own? I think the idea of the new mouldering privies is to unify the way in which our backcountry business is done. It still does not solve the problem of how we should crap in the woods. For every good pooper out there, we'll always have the turdmonger doing it their way.

More emphasis needs to be placed on crapping when there is no mouldering crapper. And like Rock or Wolf said, use a modified duff approach.

Man, I love talking about crapping.

shelterbuilder
04-13-2008, 19:38
So is it safe to say that when you hike your own hike, do you poop your own poop? Meaning, to each his own? I think the idea of the new mouldering privies is to unify the way in which our backcountry business is done. It still does not solve the problem of how we should crap in the woods. For every good pooper out there, we'll always have the turdmonger doing it their way.

More emphasis needs to be placed on crapping when there is no mouldering crapper. And like Rock or Wolf said, use a modified duff approach.

Man, I love talking about crapping.

I think I may get a rise out of LW with this, but if we had no shelters at all, and practiced completely dispersed camping with good cathole techniques, then technically we would have no need for privies of any kind. Waste would be distributed over such a wide area that there would be adequate natural decomposition taking place and no public health issues would arise.

BUT, when you build a shelter (a resource management tool designed to concentrate human impact in one area), then you have to provide a sanitary facility of some type in order to avoid generating public health problems. And without running water, electricity, central heat, and road access, your options are somewhat limited.

By adopting the mouldering toilet as a "de facto" standard, I worry that the ATC and the NPS are using the concept of "federal supremacy" to run rough-shod over some of the sanitary codes that are currently in place in many states (Pa. being one of them). And I realize why this is being done, but it still bothers me.

minnesotasmith
04-13-2008, 20:32
I
By adopting the mouldering toilet as a "de facto" standard, I worry that the ATC and the NPS are using the concept of "federal supremacy" to run rough-shod over some of the sanitary codes that are currently in place in many states (Pa. being one of them).

Superior sanitary codes does PA, etc., have, that the Feds are running roughshod over on hiking trails?

shelterbuilder
04-13-2008, 21:42
Superior sanitary codes does PA, etc., have, that the Feds are running roughshod over on hiking trails?

As a highly urbanized state, Pa.'s sanitary codes make no ditinction between "front-country development" and "back-country development". ALL development is assumed to be with access to roads, pressurized water, electricity and central heating, and any concessions to a level of development that is less than "front-country" assumes that, at some point in the future, all development will be at "front-country" levels. Hence, the codes do not know what to do with back-country sanitiation, and they make NO provision for it. And because there is no money to be made in back-country sanitiation, no one is doing much serious work on it.

Into this void steps the NPS, which basically has the right to say to the state, "you will do as we recommend", and on the AT, it seems that the current solution that is being offered to the back-country sanitation problem is the mouldering toilet. But, BY DEFINITION, it fits the state's model of a failed treatment system, in that it allows untreated sewerage to come into contact with the ground!

Do mouldering toilets work? Yes. Are they better than nothing? Yes. Are they fairly low maintenence? Yes. Do we ( here in Pa. and possibly elsewhere) need another (legal) alternative that falls within the the state's guidelines? YES.

shelterbuilder
04-13-2008, 21:50
Please excuse the typos - my server keeps dumping me and it's hard to make long, exacting posts! That should have read "distinction".

And yes, Pa.'s code needs to be re-written to include back-country sanitation for areas (such as the AT and other trails) that will forever remain back-country. I've been telling folks that for years, but, since there's no money to be made by making those changes, it's like talking to a brick wall!

Wags
04-13-2008, 22:42
my server keeps dumping me


saying that in a thread about poop = priceless

greengoat
04-13-2008, 22:47
SGT Rock, Great rec using a tree as a bench seat. It might not be tactical but whose targeting your ass on the AT? Did you poop off the trail recently southeast down the ridgline from Standing Indian because I saw paper just on the other side of a downed tree about 50 meters off the trail but no poop. Must have been a female. I'm all about scraping up the duff with my heel and covering everything with leaves. My six year old & I just knocked out 25 miles and he earned his poop badge. I taught him to go on the hillside with one hand in support uphill now I'll have to train him on the bench seat method- too cool. However y'all poop- cover it all up and mark it with a stick [Thank you FROLICKING DINOSAURS]. Wraning: STAY CLEAR behind Mt. LeConte's shelter; TP strung everywhere and green flies on the loose. Time for the Dirty Jobs guy to visit. GG

SGT Rock
04-14-2008, 08:01
SGT Rock, Great rec using a tree as a bench seat. It might not be tactical but whose targeting your ass on the AT? Did you poop off the trail recently southeast down the ridgline from Standing Indian because I saw paper just on the other side of a downed tree about 50 meters off the trail but no poop. Must have been a female. I'm all about scraping up the duff with my heel and covering everything with leaves. My six year old & I just knocked out 25 miles and he earned his poop badge. I taught him to go on the hillside with one hand in support uphill now I'll have to train him on the bench seat method- too cool. However y'all poop- cover it all up and mark it with a stick [Thank you FROLICKING DINOSAURS]. Wraning: STAY CLEAR behind Mt. LeConte's shelter; TP strung everywhere and green flies on the loose. Time for the Dirty Jobs guy to visit. GG
It wasn't me. I get way off the trail for it and didn't hike the AT for that section - I was on the BMT.

SGT Rock
04-14-2008, 08:11
Superior sanitary codes does PA, etc., have, that the Feds are running roughshod over on hiking trails?

I was wondering the same thing. As a member of the Federal Government for many years - when it came to environmental issues specifically - the Federal Government rule is to follow the most strict regulation that applies and in the order of Local, then State, and then Federal regulations. So if we were in California for an NTC rotation the rules were very tight because California is pretty darn strict. But if we were in Iraq we had to follow Federal regulations even though we were not even in America. The only time I have heard of the Federal Government, as a policy, overriding local environmental laws was very specific circumstances as outlined in DoD policy concerning the shipping and handling of munitions. Otherwise it is normally a lower level violation a law without the approval of the federal government.

shelterbuilder
04-14-2008, 20:00
I was wondering the same thing. As a member of the Federal Government for many years - when it came to environmental issues specifically - the Federal Government rule is to follow the most strict regulation that applies and in the order of Local, then State, and then Federal regulations. So if we were in California for an NTC rotation the rules were very tight because California is pretty darn strict. But if we were in Iraq we had to follow Federal regulations even though we were not even in America. The only time I have heard of the Federal Government, as a policy, overriding local environmental laws was very specific circumstances as outlined in DoD policy concerning the shipping and handling of munitions. Otherwise it is normally a lower level violation a law without the approval of the federal government.

It comes under the heading of "Federal Supremacy". They don't do it very often, but they CAN. It's usually done very politely, so as not to ruffle too many feathers, and from what I gather by reading between the lines, it's done on a case-by-case basis rather than as a blanket approach.

TIDE-HSV
04-14-2008, 20:08
The fence between Mexico and Texas is an example of all environmental and other laws being overriden. With the HSA, even federal laws can be overriden, not to mention state and local...

SGT Rock
04-14-2008, 20:21
Oh I can agree with the fact that the Federal Government overrides local laws for certain reasons - as has been pointed out that is normally in cases where security of the nation or vital national interests are at stake. I am EXTREAMLY dubious about Federal Supremacy being used to allow people to poop in different toilets on a trail, and based on my experience dealing with 'I was told' I bet dollars to donuts that there is no Federal Supremacy being invoked in the design of privies.

taildragger
04-14-2008, 20:25
I prefer the bend and squeeze method. Cover it with some duff or whatever else is available and then place a rock on top of that.

take-a-knee
04-14-2008, 20:28
I was wondering the same thing. As a member of the Federal Government for many years - when it came to environmental issues specifically - the Federal Government rule is to follow the most strict regulation that applies and in the order of Local, then State, and then Federal regulations. So if we were in California for an NTC rotation the rules were very tight because California is pretty darn strict. But if we were in Iraq we had to follow Federal regulations even though we were not even in America. The only time I have heard of the Federal Government, as a policy, overriding local environmental laws was very specific circumstances as outlined in DoD policy concerning the shipping and handling of munitions. Otherwise it is normally a lower level violation a law without the approval of the federal government.

Wrong, when DOD uses environmental laws to subvert training like at NTC is is done to "save money", so there is more money for defense contractors. DOD upper echelons are always looking for a reason not to train because meaningful, effective training costs real money. This is the primary reason why Special Operations Command came to be, it took a national embarrasment (Desert One in Iran) to shine the light on this. As a result SOCOM's funding was sacrosanct and couldn't be raped.

Like you said about munitions shipping, it had nothing to do with safety, it was about saving Uncle Sam a few bucks, so there is more left for congress and the contractors to pilfer.

I live near an air force base that has been a hazardous waste dump since WWII, when they were informed that their hazardous wastes were pouring into a creek on post and was in violation of EPA regs, their solution was to build a pipeline directly to the Ocmulgee River and pour the same waste directly into the river, bypassing the creek, and the taxpayers paid for the pipeline.

The Weasel
04-14-2008, 20:32
I was wondering the same thing. As a member of the Federal Government for many years - when it came to environmental issues specifically - the Federal Government rule is to follow the most strict regulation that applies and in the order of Local, then State, and then Federal regulations. So if we were in California for an NTC rotation the rules were very tight because California is pretty darn strict. But if we were in Iraq we had to follow Federal regulations even though we were not even in America. The only time I have heard of the Federal Government, as a policy, overriding local environmental laws was very specific circumstances as outlined in DoD policy concerning the shipping and handling of munitions. Otherwise it is normally a lower level violation a law without the approval of the federal government.

Rock, I hate to break it to you, but the USG and, in particular, the DoD, override state and local environmental laws pretty routinely. Most recently, Dod/Navy has tried to disregard California rules regarding use of California state waters during recent Navy training exercises using high power sonar, which is so powerful that it can kill marine mammals at significant distances. (Think sitting next to a speaker putting out about 500db of power. Yes, it can kill.) Similarly, the EPA has overridden California air quality regulations routinelyh in the last few years, to the point where California has had to sue all the way to the Supreme Court (and won).

This may be a good time to move this topic.

TW

SGT Rock
04-14-2008, 20:34
Yes, but those things are done in the national interest for training. A lawyer could probably weigh in on this, but as I remember from going through the BS training relating to that, DoD waivers are what are used to cover those in the interest of national security though we know it ain't got a lot to do with it. On the other hand I have witnessed Army units paying HUGE fines to the tune of millions out of operational budgets for violation of local, state, and sometimes federal laws when it comes to hazardous waste. That includes places like Fort Stewart, Fort Hood, and especially the NTC. If the Army could use Federal Supremacy willy-nilly they would have gotten out of those fines.

And, as I just boned up on a little Google Law (so take it for what it is worth). Federal Supremacy applies to laws which congress has passed superseding local and state laws where there are conflicting laws. It does not apply to "recommendations by the NPS". In those cases these recommendations must be within established laws. Now, back when I went through that BS course one thing that appeared quite regularly was the DoD waiver for things in the case of national security. But there was never a waiver for local or state laws or even federal law for "expedience of trail pooping"